Question: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1102X

[tautech]

Or for the full story you could watch this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-826-siglent-ceo-eric-qin-visits-the-eevblog-lab/

Just be sure you can handle the heat. 

I have been reading through the original discussion and I just watched the video and I am not satisfied.  The president of Siglent just repeated what his representatives did so the video does not add anything.

1. Talk is cheap and Siglent did not made the situation right with the seller.
2. What they did was a misuse of IP laws.

I suspect they had a policy of doing this indiscriminately and just got caught in this case.

That's the problem....unfounded suspicion.
So you don't believe the offered explanation then ? (mistake by a junior)
I do as I had inside channels to what was happening at the time and heard the facts before they were blown out of all proportion here on EEVblog. 
OK, you are free to believe as you wish, even is it's misjudged. 

I think you'll find the OP in that thread was relatively happy with the peace offering he received from Siglent.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I have been reading through the original discussion and I just watched the video and I am not satisfied.  The president of Siglent just repeated what his representatives did so the video does not add anything.

1. Talk is cheap and Siglent did not made the situation right with the seller.
2. What they did was a misuse of IP laws.

I suspect they had a policy of doing this indiscriminately and just got caught in this case.

That's the problem....unfounded suspicion.
So you don't believe the offered explanation then ? (mistake by a junior)
I do as I had inside channels to what was happening at the time

That is all well and nice but at the end of the day doesn't change the fact that Siglent engaged in illegal activity. A crime is a crime, and it matters little if the perpetrator did this knowingly or by accident. There's no way to polish that turd.

And since you say the excuse they used was actually true, asking a junior Chinese employee with close to no English skills to check US ebay auctions for "illegitimate" offers resulting in a violation of US law makes their management (incl the CEO) rather incompetent.

I agree with David Hess, they very likely did this on a regular basis (and might still do, maybe now just a bit more carefully), and only in this case have been caught out. At the end of the day, attempts to manipulate the market isn't exactly frowned upon in Chinese business culture.

[rf-loop]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/ds1052e-removed-from-ebay/msg2892/#msg2892

[PiafNL]

Hi Bicurico,
Maybe somewhat late, but may I still reply on the discussion?
First of all, I used both a Rigol 4 channel 200MHz scope at at my former job, and after a long discussion with myself and some deep investigations on the web I decided that for my private use of a replacement for an old analogue scope (Philips 200MHz, 2 channel) a Siglent SDS1202X+ 2 channel 200MHz, plus the 16 channel DSO option, plus free decode option would be the best choice. It's a bit above the approx. 400 euro you wanted to spend, say 1200 euro, but I am very happy with my choice, because the Siglent performs much better.
Some benefits of the Siglent:
- much more stable, almost no jitter, generic better performance;
- nice decode function for I2C, SPI, CAN, LIN with ASCII, HEX, DEC; it has some sub-functionality on e.g.
  I2C, like 7 bits or 10 bits, EEPROM, start, stop and other conditions;
- decode function works on both CH1 CH2 and DSO (select any of the 16 channels);
- EXT trigger, Pass/Fail or Trigger Out at rear panel;
- AWG max 25 MHz (sine), lower on other wave forms;
- Kensington lock;
- Separate vertical controls for each channel;
- using a HF pulse generator, it shows perfect rise & fall on CH1 and CH2 even above the -3dB point
  making it even a bit faster than advertised;
- nice display colouring feature for probabilities;
- the PC remote software is easier to use and performs better once you are used to it;
- many more.

One of the drawbacks of Siglent scopes: as far as I know, you can't label a channel. Pity. I cannot recall if the Rigol I used a year ago was capable of labelling channels.

One major mechanical lack of both scopes: their front feet are bad. Really bad. Just touch either scope on top, and it topples over.

I also compared the Siglent 1202X+ to a Keysight (4 channel) 200 MHz MSO with a touch screen I am using every day at work now. I was surprised that the 1200 euro Siglent has more functionality and at some levels performs even better than the 7800 euro Keysight scope.

[garymck]

Hi,
don't want to hijack the thread, but I'd like to ask a slightly different question. First some background - I'm a newbie to electronics, retired pensioner learning from online resources, here, youtube etc, slowly building up my little lab. I'm currently saving for a DSO. I've read many comparisons of budget DSO's, and everybody seems to be comparing hacked Rigols to other brands. How does the comparison go if you leave the Rigol unhacked? I'm very wary (through past experience) of buying something on the basis that it can be hacked for extra functionality. Manufacturers can disable this at any time with a firmware update. Rigol may be allowing the hacks to continue, but who knows when the next firmware update is done if this will change?

So, does the choice change if we have an unhacked 50mhz 1054z vs say a Siglent SDS1202X-E (both within a few dollars in price in Australia). we have 50mhz 4 channels, vs 200mhz 2 channels?

I will mostly be doing Arduino/ microcontroller stuff, perhaps some audio as well. My understanding is that arduino operates at 16mhz, so the Rigol would not be able to use all 4 channels unless hacked.

Which would be the best solution for me given my preference for not hacking?

cheers
Gary

[bitseeker]

So, does the choice change if we have an unhacked 50mhz 1054z vs say a Siglent SDS1202X-E (both within a few dollars in price in Australia). we have 50mhz 4 channels, vs 200mhz 4 channels?

It's 50 MHz, 4 channels, Rigol vs. 200 MHz, 2 channels, Siglent (not 4 channels).

If you'll be working with SPI communications, having four channels is useful to see all four lines of the SPI bus. However, if you'll be evaluating the signal quality on those lines at very high speeds, higher bandwidth is valuable. As usual, there are tradeoffs.

I will mostly be doing Arduino/ microcontroller stuff, perhaps some audio as well. My understanding is that arduino operates at 16mhz, so the Rigol would not be able to use all 4 channels unless hacked.

Many Arduino boards run at 16MHz (microcontroller clock speed), but that doesn't mean that all of the signals you'd want to look at are running at that clock speed. For example, the Arduino SoftwareSerial library supports serial communication speeds up to 115200 bps. Some boards (e.g., Arduino 101) can only receive serial data at a maximum of 57600 bps.

The DS1054Z's four channels will work whether you hack it or not. The hack doesn't change the sampling rate of the scope, only the bandwidth of its inputs. With four channels active, the sampling rate is 250Msps/sec, with or without the hack.

[nctnico]

Which would be the best solution for me given my preference for not hacking?

I'd say the GW Instek GDS-2000E series has mature firmware and lots of features, deepest memory with all channels enabled but is is considerably more expensive (US $1270 for the 200MHz 4 channel version)  compared to a hacked Rigol DS1054Z. However without hacks a Rigol DS1104Z with decoding and deep memory options will be over US$1000 as well. By the way the Siglent SDS1202X-E only has two channels. For me that would be a no-go just because of the number of channels. IMHO 4 channels is a minimum requirement for an oscilloscope especially if you want to work with microcontrollers. Having additional digital channels can be an advantage. Nowadays there is also an MSO2000E series from GW Instek which has 4 channels analog + 16 digital. The 200MHz version will cost around US $1900 though. If you want a much cheaper oscilloscope then a MicSig TO1104 is also a good option (4 channels 100MHz) although protocol decoding is in beta testing stage.

[Fungus]

I'm very wary (through past experience) of buying something on the basis that it can be hacked for extra functionality. Manufacturers can disable this at any time with a firmware update. Rigol may be allowing the hacks to continue, but who knows when the next firmware update is done if this will change?

a) It's not an ongoing 'battle' of hackers vs. Rigol. There's no back and forth with us hacking, them trying to prevent us via firmware updates, etc. They've been allowing hacks for a long time now (since the previous generation of 'scopes!), they know perfectly well that everybody does it, they've never tried to stop it, it's good for sales.

b) Nobody can force you to update your firmware. Right now the firmware is quite mature and they're unlikely to introduce any major new features. You could just stay with the current firmware version forever.

c) Apart from the bandwidth you also get a lot of extra goodies which are paid options, eg. serial decoders. If they prevent those hacks from working then they'll kill all the people who legitimately paid for them - never going to happen!

(b) and (c) are moot though. If they had any interest at all in preventing hacking they'd have done something by now - the 'scope is a few years old and there's several board/booter revisions.

So, does the choice change if we have an unhacked 50mhz 1054z

Yes, but you simply wouldn't do that.

I will mostly be doing Arduino/ microcontroller stuff, perhaps some audio as well. My understanding is that arduino operates at 16mhz, so the Rigol would not be able to use all 4 channels unless hacked.

An unhacked Rigol can use all 4 channels at 50MHz.

Which would be the best solution for me given my preference for not hacking?

Learn to embrace hacking.

Or look at the cheapo GW-Instek, it's comparable to an unhacked Rigol in specs, similar price, but nicer.

By the way the Siglent SDS1202X-E only has two channels. For me that would be a no-go just because of the number of channels.

Yep. The Siglent is nice but for Arduino work you want more than two channels.

Siglent: You need to make the trigger input act like a third 'digital' channel like the new Keysight does. I could live with two analog&one digital channel.

[garymck]

Hi,
and thanks to those who answered my query regarding the best choice in DSO's. I'll continue saving and will accept the recommendations re the 1054Z. The other brands are pretty much out of my league price wise, and since I know so little about these things at the moment, I'll listen to people much better informed than myself :-)

cheers
and thanks again
Gary

[bitseeker]

Hi,
and thanks to those who answered my query regarding the best choice in DSO's. I'll continue saving and will accept the recommendations re the 1054Z.

You're welcome, Gary. Since you're currently saving up, be sure to check out the landscape once you're at the point of purchase. Things may have changed by then.

Meanwhile, have fun with the microcontrollers. You can still do a bunch prior to getting your new scope.