Author Topic: Reasons for hacking DSOs  (Read 89886 times)

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Offline jixe

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2016, 08:42:59 pm »
Why do you need a scope with more than 70MHz bandwidth when observing logic signals?

Simple. Because a 70MHz measurement system (i.e. scope+probes) will have a risetime of 5ns, and modern digital signals are much faster than that. Even jellybean logic can have risetimes ~600ps, i.e. almost 10 times faster. Note that there is no mention of a signal's period/frequency, since that is completely irrelevant.

Why is that important? Because a 70MHz scope can miss things that will cause a digital system to malfunction either quickly or, worse, eventually. A primary use-case for a scope is to ensure the "signal integrity" of digital signals: verifying that the analogue waveforms (that are interpreted by the logic as being digital) are clean, so that they will be interpreted correctly.

What can cause signal integrity problems? Poor grounding, incorrect termination, stubs, crosstalk, and many other things.

And then of course, there are simple logic errors. Even 40 year old logic families can have "runt pulses" than can be missed by a 70MHz scope.


Thanks for the info tggzz, et al.
So I guess a lot of hobbyists - even ones like me using 8Mhz Arduinos and 74HC595 etc chips would benefit from a faster scope than 5ns ( or 5.1ns with the 350MHz probes) regardless of the fact that the 74HC chips are only clocked per 125ns. It's the rise time that counts.
There's good reason to suppose then that a  bit of the motivation I asked about in my original post is from genuine need (even for hobbyists) , but I have to take away the impression that "because it's there" is paramount.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2016, 08:44:13 pm »
Some options prices are rather insane though. For example a Tektronix TLA7AA4 acquisition module. AFAIK the base price was $22000 but with the full options (memory depth and state sampling speed) enabled it cost $79000. That is a lot of money for 2 limits in the software!
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2016, 10:02:18 pm »
Some options prices are rather insane though. For example a Tektronix TLA7AA4 acquisition module. AFAIK the base price was $22000 but with the full options (memory depth and state sampling speed) enabled it cost $79000. That is a lot of money for 2 limits in the software!

So what?

IBM used to increase their computers performance by removing a wire on the backplane. Since their pricing structure was that price was the square of the performance, that was a very lucrative upgrade.

If you don't like the price, vote with your feet. Suppliers can change anything they like for their product.

BTW I've seen a company destroyed by idiot marketing department that treated software as free - and since they didn't make money from it, they didn't invest in it. The product was, of course software; go figure!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline c4757p

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2016, 10:14:20 pm »
By the letter of the law - unlocking a feature that explicitly requires a paid license is stealing.

No, by the letter of the law certain penalties are attached to the action. The law defines neither ethics nor meanings of words outside legal situations. It's not relevant to whether something is theft, only to whether legal professionals are to treat it as such when performing the duties of their positions.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2016, 10:26:25 pm »
By the letter of the law - unlocking a feature that explicitly requires a paid license is stealing.

No, by the letter of the law certain penalties are attached to the action. The law defines neither ethics nor meanings of words outside legal situations. It's not relevant to whether something is theft, only to whether legal professionals are to treat it as such when performing the duties of their positions.

WTF?

I am not a lawyer or legal scholar, but I am pretty sure that a software license is considered a valuable product and that if it is used without the proper permission - it's stealing. Not really an ethics thing, but rather black and white. Software companies sell licenses, that is their revenue stream. That is what pays the engineers. Period. It costs a boat load of cash to develop even minor pieces of software.

Lawyers have to determine if the loss is worth the expensive legal chase but that has nothing with whether or not the use of the software was stolen by illegal means. Go read a few of the exciting software terms of use. It's pretty clear.
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Offline c4757p

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2016, 10:33:43 pm »
Go read the rest of the thread, because I've addressed everything you said already.

- No, the law doesn't make it "stealing". The law makes it illegal. The law doesn't get to dictate what words mean.
- I don't care if that's where their money comes from, they chose to give me the software, so I'm going to use it. If you sell me something, I'm going to do whatever I want with it. Don't like it, don't sell it to me. That simple. I'm not playing your stupid lawyer licensing games. I have an object, I use the object.

If you don't like that your money comes from a place that makes it hard to get money, that's your problem, not mine.

In other words: if you have to legislate or license away my right as a consumer to use the product I bought as I see fit just to make your chosen profession profitable, get another profession.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 10:44:43 pm by c4757p »
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Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2016, 10:35:52 pm »
EULAs aren't necessarily legally binding, even if they proclaim to. You can argue copyright though.

But the fact hardware can be "legally" hacked while software "can't" is likely an issue of semantics rather than actual law.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2016, 10:49:05 pm »
EULAs aren't necessarily legally binding, even if they proclaim to. You can argue copyright though.

But the fact hardware can be "legally" hacked while software "can't" is likely an issue of semantics rather than actual law.

Actually that's a good point. Say, as in the DS1000Z, the bandwidth is controlled by a couple of resistors and a CMOS switch, you could fairly easily alter circuit physically. Or you could fiddle the firmware. The end result is the same, but fiddling the firmware is easier.

Are both illegal, or are they different, and if so what is the difference?

Now let's take it a stage further. Say you have some trial options that you haven't had chance to use yet but are about to disappear. You figure out a way to stop the trial clock without modifying any software or entering any keys. Is that illegal, or is it different, and if so what is the difference?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2016, 11:10:15 pm »
Some options prices are rather insane though. For example a Tektronix TLA7AA4 acquisition module. AFAIK the base price was $22000 but with the full options (memory depth and state sampling speed) enabled it cost $79000. That is a lot of money for 2 limits in the software!
IBM used to increase their computers performance by removing a wire on the backplane. Since their pricing structure was that price was the square of the performance, that was a very lucrative upgrade.
IBM wasn't the only one doing that. Certain Harris computers had similar straps. That could lead to problems though when somehow during the lifetime of the system the jumper got removed (replacement). When the customer wanted the upgrade to get more performance they sometimes didn't get the extra performance they expected because they already got it. Very tough to explain...
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If you don't like the price, vote with your feet. Suppliers can change anything they like for their product.
Software isn't free but IMHO paying for options in test equipment can be a dissapointment. It seems that TE manufacturers are giving away their options (almost) for free as package deals or during clearout sales. I definitely feel cheated when I pay full price and a couple of months later others pay 30% less. What do I get for being a loyal customer? For the last two oscilloscopes I bought I decided not to buy from Lecroy and R&S due to their insanely priced options.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2016, 12:09:52 am »
If you think about them, you make pretty silly points...

Software isn't free
Well, as I noted not charging for software can be just as bad, viz "I've seen a company destroyed by idiot marketing department that treated software as free - and since they didn't make money from it, they didn't invest in it. The product was, of course software; go figure!"

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but IMHO paying for options in test equipment can be a dissapointment. It seems that TE manufacturers are giving away their options (almost) for free as package deals or during clearout sales.
Don't you realise that "package deals" are what happens when customers aren't indicating the prices are unaffordable? Sounds good to me.

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I definitely feel cheated when I pay full price and a couple of months later others pay 30% less.
I suggest you never buy any electronics, since in six months time there will be a cheaper equivalent. Deal with it.

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What do I get for being a loyal customer? For the last two oscilloscopes I bought I decided not to buy from Lecroy and R&S due to their insanely priced options.
As for "loyal customers", for a couple of decades companies of all sorts have regarded them as sheep ready to be slaughtered. Nowadays you get discounts for disloyalty! Deal with it. Welcome to tomorrow.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2016, 12:19:15 am »
Oh, good grief...

I don't care if that's where their money comes from, they chose to give me the software, so I'm going to use it. If you sell me something, I'm going to do whatever I want with it. Don't like it, don't sell it to me. That simple.
They didn't give anything to you, they only sold a licence to use it. You should be able to do anything reasonable with the things you have licenced but not the things you haven't licenced. In particular there should, of course, be a secondhand market in selling such licences, and the EU is attempting to enforce that concept.

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I'm not playing your stupid lawyer licensing games. I have an object, I use the object.
... and the toys exit the pram and end up on the floor.

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In other words: if you have to legislate or license away my right as a consumer to use the product I bought as I see fit just to make your chosen profession profitable, get another profession.
True, where the product is a licence just as for atoms. But not for products you haven't bought.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline c4757p

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2016, 12:28:56 am »
No, they gave me an oscilloscope and it contained software. At no point did I sign a license agreement. The idea that software is only "licensed" even when you give me a copy and I don't agree to anything is a lawyer fantasy. If I don't specifically agree to give up my rights to the thing you gave me, I still bloody have them.

The number of profit-worshippers here is fascinating. You people all seem to think that anything is inherently unethical if it results in someone making less money. How many of you are in business rather than actually making things, I wonder?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 12:30:51 am by c4757p »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2016, 01:10:40 am »
but IMHO paying for options in test equipment can be a dissapointment. It seems that TE manufacturers are giving away their options (almost) for free as package deals or during clearout sales.
Don't you realise that "package deals" are what happens when customers aren't indicating the prices are unaffordable? Sounds good to me.
You are missing the point: some test equipment manufacturers don't seem to place any value on options other than being some random bargaining chip to lure customers in when business is slow or potential customers may have money to spend. So to get back on topic: how can you hurt test equipment manufacturers by getting for free what they hand out for free by hacking?

There is also the advantage the competition can get over you. If you are paying $2000 for a bunch of options but your direct competitor gets it for free it means he has to make $2000 less on his product to make the same profit as you do!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2016, 01:25:23 am »
but IMHO paying for options in test equipment can be a dissapointment. It seems that TE manufacturers are giving away their options (almost) for free as package deals or during clearout sales.
Don't you realise that "package deals" are what happens when customers aren't indicating the prices are unaffordable? Sounds good to me.
You are missing the point: some test equipment manufacturers don't seem to place any value on options other than being some random bargaining chip to lure customers in when business is slow or potential customers may have money to spend.

So that's their perfectly rational reasonable legal business choice. Tough luck if you don't like it.

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So to get back on topic: how can you hurt test equipment manufacturers by getting for free what they hand out for free by hacking?

Don't buy their product, or wait until they want to drum up more sales, e.g. if they a have unsold products they want to shift, or if they want to buy market share. (The latter was an invalid business strategy according to Dave Packard :) )

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There is also the advantage the competition can get over you. If you are paying $2000 for a bunch of options but your direct competitor gets it for free it means he has to make $2000 less on his product to make the same profit as you do!

So they are better at business than you, or just got lucky. That's life.

What would you say if you got something $2000 cheaper than your direct competitor? Would you feel bad or happy?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Someone

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2016, 02:08:14 am »
Most people do not 'hack' their scope, they don't have the skills to do that. A few smart guys are doing that and the rest are just copying the process.
Agreed, most of the folks running the keygen against their Rigol gear (myself included) are being the EE equivalent of script-kiddies, not that there's anything fundamentally wrong with that in this context.
If you're talking about hacking serial numbers or/and unlocking features on your scope, that's plain stealing  >:D
With all due respect, I think you're mistaken, again at least in terms of Rigol. Their decision not to close any of their licensing security holes, either with firmware updates or new designs for new equipment, fairly clearly illustrate the reality that 'hacking' their equipment is a marketing/segmentation exercise for them. They've done what so many companies long to do, they've worked out how to charge different prices for the same product, dependent on the individual customer's willingness (and possibly ability) to pay. If Rigol _didn't_ offer the ultra-hackable DS1000Z and DS2K series scopes, I'd be furiously trying to decide between all the low-cost scope options in the marketplace. But since they do, the decision becomes easy, I'll buy theirs and feel like I'm getting a ton more for my money. I wasn't going to spend more than $500 for the scope anyway, the question is solely one of which company gets my money. And it costs Rigol _nothing_ for me to hack, assuming that I wasn't going to pay for the feature in the first place. And I wasn't; as a hobbyist, if I need to decode I2C and I don't have a scope that'll do it, I'm going to spend $30 on a USB dongle to do the job, not $120 on a license for my scope. But they do get the sale, and more important than a piddly little sale, they get me using their products, getting used to their interfaces, making happy memories showing my kids what music looks like as a waveform, all on my Rigol Brand Digital Storage Oscilloscope™

And that could be priceless (or at least worth a lot more than a $400 scope).

Same with the DP832 I'm also about to buy. Feels like a bargain, even if it's not really. It absolutely does feel like it to me. Bloody genius.
If anyone is interested in the topic, this is an _excellent_ Joel on Software article, well worth the read if you have any interest in marketing; http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckies.html
Great post and link out to further interesting discussion. But I'll disagree with:
it costs Rigol _nothing_ for me to hack, assuming that I wasn't going to pay for the feature in the first place
If your decision to buy the scope was biased by the presence of the additional possible features then they did pay by developing the features, if they had not invested the money in developing all those juicy features then they would not have sold the scope to you. This is probably all very carefully accounted for as we all say they're not closing the loopholes or hacks like some other brands are. It may be a fixed cost rather than a variable cost, but it is a cost.

The pricing of "unlockable features" is driven heavily by the cost of sales, in a huge multinational like Keysight they will probably lose money on selling a single licence at a time for the lower cost ?$300 options, their profit on selling the middle priced options for the low end scopes $500-$1000 will be very small. They've dug themselves a hole for these sorts of features through their deep and complex sales channel. Until the manufacturers offer an automated way of selling the licenses to you by credit card (no human interaction required) it will continue to be expensive. We all hoped Altium would see the light with incremental options for a free version, but they killed that off and the only option remains a fully optioned out and high barrier for entry $3000+subscription.

Delivering copyright material to the end user and asking they don't use it by licensing does not work in all jurisdictions around the world, and will receive more and more scrutiny in coming years as "everyday" products like cars become a mess of licensed software you're not "allowed" to repair or modify. I work for a company that handles this simply where a software product has multiple tiers or options, you hand the customer the code only for the version they purchased, completely different downloads that require different hardware activation. The option is there for companies to send a clear message but they choose not to.

Why big companies are not offering anything for free came back to the Sarbanes–Oxley debacle, and frightening the American accountants into worrying they might not be capturing the underlying value for the books if any customer was ever offered a free update that added additional functions. As ridiculous as it sounds these abstract ideas of recognising revenue are still constraining what is offered, accountants ruin everything.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2016, 06:04:49 am »
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I definitely feel cheated when I pay full price and a couple of months later others pay 30% less.


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I suggest you never buy any electronics, since in six months time there will be a cheaper equivalent. Deal with it.
Eggzzactly.
4 months after I bought my 4 channel Hantek, I can buy a 4 channel Rigol for ~25% less. So how much do you think I care?
....
None. I didn't buy my Hantek to look at it for 4 months. I bought it because I needed it at the time. (And I haven't used more than 2 channels at a time in the year+, since!). It made possible a specific task/job. If I wanted a shiny new Rigol just for the sake of "what if I need it in the future," I would buy one, too. But I'm more inclined to wait... because as you have noticed, prices on DSO's seem to come down over time, and features go up. Because people are working to make better machines for cheaper. Because there's competition. Because a lot of people actually pay for things. If you're concerned about costs coming down, then wait to buy a scope until you need it. You will not be sad when prices drop, later.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 06:11:45 am by KL27x »
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2016, 09:36:34 am »
With all due respect, I think you're mistaken, again at least in terms of Rigol. Their decision not to close any of their licensing security holes, either with firmware updates or new designs for new equipment, fairly clearly illustrate the reality that 'hacking' their equipment is a marketing/segmentation exercise for them.

Or the segment is so small that it is lost in the noise. Or they are technically incompetent to do that, perish the thought. Or doing it would cost more than the extra income, i.e. negative profit.

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If Rigol _didn't_ offer the ultra-hackable DS1000Z and DS2K series scopes, I'd be furiously trying to decide between all the low-cost scope options in the marketplace. But since they do, the decision becomes easy, I'll buy theirs and feel like I'm getting a ton more for my money.

A reasonable point.

It also reduces their post-sales costs: "you hacked it, you are on your own" :)

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And I wasn't; as a hobbyist, if I need to decode I2C and I don't have a scope that'll do it, I'm going to spend $30 on a USB dongle to do the job, not $120 on a license for my scope.

Which is probably the right decision for technical reasons as well! When debugging in the digital domain, use digital debuggers not analogue debuggers that infer a digital signal.

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If anyone is interested in the topic, this is an _excellent_ Joel on Software article, well worth the read if you have any interest in marketing; http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckies.html

Yes, a good literate article.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Helix70

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2016, 11:18:58 am »
It's easier to make that argument for the frequency unlock, which is very obviously handicapping a device for the sole purposes of market segmentation and future revenue stream. It's clever, effective, but it feels a bit skeevy. Charging for decoding modules and other software features is a different matter, you're adding functionality, not just de-restricting.

I happily disagree with you. The decoding modules are, like the frequency capabilities, already there, they are just turned off without the correct key. I don't see that being different from the frequency unlock.

That is just wrong.

Many computers ship with a demo copy of Microsoft Office. Its only bits, they are already there, so customers replacing the demo with a pirate copy is ok, right? My mobile phone can connect to other carriers cell towers too, but they might agree that I should pay for access to the network, despite the infrastructure already being there. The bus goes right past my house, the gall of them to ask me to pay for something that is already there!

The key is for simplicity. You don't own the license, but it is conveniently in place and available. The DSO company spent good money developing serial decoding into the scope, it is fair they can ask for compensation. You get to choose if the price is worth it, and if not, go to the competition, or get your notebook out.
 

Online Kilrah

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2016, 12:30:30 pm »
I don't care if that's where their money comes from, they chose to give me the software, so I'm going to use it. If you sell me something, I'm going to do whatever I want with it. Don't like it, don't sell it to me. That simple.
They didn't give anything to you, they only sold a licence to use it.
Yes they did, because you're "physically" in possession of the actual code for the feature, it's just locked.

I work for a company that handles this simply where a software product has multiple tiers or options, you hand the customer the code only for the version they purchased, completely different downloads that require different hardware activation. The option is there for companies to send a clear message but they choose not to.

That. The whole issue here revolves about hardware and software with a given set of capabilities and characteristics that has been physically created AND delivered to you, but some of it you can't use, it's silly and is what causes the perception issues we see here.

We wouldn't see people feeling robbed if the software or hardware was not included at all in the first place. Back in the day when upgrades meant physically buying and installing an actual hardware module with better capabilities that uses a more expensive component than what they already have to provide them (i.e. there was a real difference in cost between the parts providing the limited or advanced capabilities and their choice of going with the limited ones to save was deliberate, and you know what you're paying for when you buy the upgrade), or purchasing a separate software package that you install next to the existing one or replacing it things were clear and nobody was complaining. The thing is an actual, "physical" product (counting downloads as such) that is clearly stolen if you get it in your possession without paying for it.
Technically there is no difference with the unlocking key, but perceptually the difference is huge. The licensing scheme is only "legal BS" that nobody in the general public actually can relate to. Music, movies, software have been working on that scheme "forever" but you never hear someone say "I licenced XYZ's new album", they'll say "I bought...". They physically got something, whether a vinyl, cassette, CD or download in return for their money, now they can use it. Breaking the link between payment and an actual physical thing in people's minds would take decades to change. I occasionally work in the production industry, and when the managers get to a licensing agreement that they can use "2 minutes from that 15min video" we still don't give them the whole 15min file which would of course be easier, but we'll extract and physically only give them the 2 minutes they chose. If we had given them the 15 min file ourselves we'd expect them to try to use more if we didn't do that because that's just how people work. The fact we did the effort to make a cut for them will burn in their mind the fact that we don't mess about this, and even if it's a piece of cake to download the 15 min version from Youtube they know doing this would be very wrong, so they don't.

So in the meantime as Someone (hah) says the solution is simple, if you don't want me to use something then don't give it to me. If you do, don't complain if I do whatever I can to use it. Don't load the device with software that is perfectly capable of performing some functions but are disabled if a bit isn't flipped. Don't put a 64MB RAM chip or fast ADC and let me use only 8MB / part of the ADC's capabilities. I've bought it, I have it in my hands and want to use it. If you want to sell a scope with a slower ADC or less memory then build one, the fact you can save some money by making all the units identical is not my problem. At most, it says something about how much a scope with only 8MB RAM is worth on the market - nothing given you decided it was not worth making. If you decided making a scope with 64MB was less expensive than making one with 8MB then great! But then give me all 64MB at that price, don't try to make me pay extra for something that obviously didn't cost you, or you even saved on.

Screw the "product is worth what people are ready to pay for it, not how much it actually costs to make" paradigm. This marketing scheme is a pain for users and nobody really wants it, it's unfortunately imposed by pretty much every test equipment manufacturer so that you pretty much have no other option as a buyer, but they're the only ones thinking it's good. There are industries where artificial market segmentation was also heavy, but some manufacturer has tried going the opposite way... and their success no doubt proves buyers are really tired of the old scheme. Their products are segmented only based on actual hardware features, cheaper or more high end contruction, different form factors, hardware components that allow for new features on newer models etc but the cheapest model can already do 90% of what the top end one can, and most importantly getting those capabilities from other manufacturers would require you to buy their top end model at 5x the price or more, anything cheaper while technically just as capable is artificially crippled. In the new market segment mnementh talks of the artificial crippling caused features that are useful for that new segment to only be found in the higher end models, but nobody's ready to pay the price they ask for it, so... guess who's got 50% market share in the now most active and insanely fast growing segment of the industry.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 12:54:02 pm by Kilrah »
 

Offline hamdi.tn

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2016, 12:47:16 pm »
Let's take it a bit too far and say that someone with enough time and knowledge rewrite the entire software that run on a specific oscilloscope model, and by doing that he actually now capable of using what ever hardware feature available of the scope.
does this count as stealing !! does this void any licence agreement of not using that equipment as sold !!
not if it's not stealing, can he sell it for anyone who think that his software is better than what OEM did, knowing he did invest money and time on it and didn't use any bit of the original software :box:
 

Online Kilrah

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2016, 01:03:28 pm »
Let's take it a bit too far and say that someone with enough time and knowledge rewrite the entire software that run on a specific oscilloscope model, and by doing that he actually now capable of using what ever hardware feature available of the scope.

Heh it's not too far, that's exactly what happened in the case of my previous post's last paragraph. Someone was tired of the stupid marketing-driven limitations of existing products, took a cheap Chinese device that was technically simple but appropriate, and started writing an alternative open source software for it that was obviously free of any artificial restrictions and as flexible as possible. It grew a lot over the years, dedicated replacement boards with more capability were developed for the existing casing (PCBs are cheap, a whole product with the related mechanical design was out of reach), and now that this manufacturer who was eager to join the market teamed up with the appropriate resources there are several fully dedicated complete products.

Many industry segments and the individuals they "serve" would benefit from it. I put "serve" in quote marks because while the original goal of a business was to make appropriate tools for people to use and create things with, they're nowadays mostly looking at themselves and their profits rather than what the users need or want. Initiatives like the above hopefully can do a bit to bring things back towards where they belong.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 01:06:46 pm by Kilrah »
 

Offline meeder

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2016, 02:01:06 pm »
You that happening quite often, take DD-WRT for example.
DD-WRT is an open source alternative firmware for a lot of wireless routers which greatly enhances the functionality and performance of those devices.

Another example is OpenPLi, a project that provides software for satellite and cable receivers. It has gone so far as that most of the target receivers are now shipped with this software from the manufacturer.
 

Online Kilrah

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2016, 03:15:41 pm »
Indeed, and if you upscale that a lot you can actually consider Linux and the GNU ecosystem as being the same kind of thing - even if it dates much further back they also started as alternatives to existing proprietary solutions, and have replaced them in a vast number of cases. Ironic that the vendors who create the things we're complaining about right here often use it as a foundation by the way - the movement simply hasn't reached their field just yet ;)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 03:17:58 pm by Kilrah »
 

Offline hamdi.tn

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2016, 03:53:30 pm »
but does this make it OK but the same legal, ethical rules that say that you not allowed to modify "hack" and unlock a software in order to use the existing hardware in a different way than is meant to be. Following this logic the answer is No, neither making it profitable business. But it happen and if anyone follow this rules Linux and all freeware open source things will never be on the market. and what happen is company sell linux distribution embedded in it's hardware and once again it's locked and not free to use and by definition is against the raison why such software as linux exists in the first place. And now am confused ...
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Reasons for hacking DSOs
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2016, 03:59:13 pm »
And I think that is the main reason a lot of folks do this... In the case Kilrah is talking about, a cheap, closed-source RC Transmitter with an utterly craptacular UI was the base "guinea pig"; smart programming folks found that it used a common Atmel CPU and could be relatively easily flashed with a new sketch containing much more straightforward and flexible Open-Source UI.

This UI has grown over a decade and is now really the De Facto standard of the industry; new features are released constantly and the original manufacturer of the guinea pig released models specifically deisgned to be easily flashed to this FW. Another Chinese manufacturer has become one of the most popular brands worldwide because they developed a family of inexpensive but decent quality RC Transmitters specifically to work with the firmware.

These TX have become so popular, in fact, that in order to keep up with the Open-Source UI, the established big names in the industry have been forced to release whole new entry-level product lines with much greater feature set than their previous top-tier products used to have.

At the core, THIS is why we hack. To upset the prevailing paradigm and bring about one we like better.


mnem
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