What people are arguing here, however, is that the seller should be able to unilaterally dictate to the buyer what he may and may not do with what he purchased, while the buyer has no equivalent power.
He can do w/e he wants with it, sure.
If it's the buyer you're talking about in the above (we've already established that the seller can do whatever he wants), well in that case, we have no disagreement.
That was easy.
you'd better read up on the history of monopolies and the abuses that have occurred at their hands. A monopoly inherently gives the seller the ability to dictate terms).
What is the monopoly, here?
The point wasn't to say that a monopoly exists now, but to illustrate that businesses that have been given the power to dictate terms have used that power to ill effect. It's an illustrative warning of what will happen if some people here were to have their preferences implemented.
I don't desire that they should give those features to everyone. Whether they do or not is their choice. What I do insist on is that they not demand that the customer artificially limit his actions in order to satisfy the manufacturer's desire to do things a certain way.
Which actions are you talking about, here, being artificially limited?
The action under discussion, that would be artificially limited if some had their way, is the ability to enter a magic code into the oscilloscope one owns so as to enable the features that were not enabled prior to that, even if he didn't obtain the code from the seller or one of the seller's authorized representatives.
What people are insisting on here is that the manufacturer should be artificially shielded from the consequences of being lazy
Not at all... WinZip is pretty lazy about how they charge for their software. And I'd venture that the majority of users do not pay for it. I don't think anyone should burn in hell for it, anymore than anyone would care about hobbyists unlocking a Rigol scope! I don't think anyone cares! I just don't agree that unlocking features, using the manufacturers own software, is "hacking" or "improving" something you own the same way as changing/modifying a physical good. Tweaking an ECU with a custom firmware to get more horsepower, that's hacking.
I fully agree that "hacking" is really a misnomer. What we're talking about is not really any different than someone following directions to perform a simple modification to their car.
Well, seeing how I've already outlined exactly how the manufacturers can do what they want without imposing artificial limits on the actions of their customers, this objection doesn't fly.
Well, I think it is obvious that this increases the cost to other customers who just want the base model. So it's a tradeoff. And I already said I don't object to you hacking your scope.
If it really increased the cost of the base model to other customers, then how do you explain how Rigol manages to sell their DS1054Z for such a low price when they have arguably the most "hackable" (sorry, "easily modifiable") scope on the market?
No, you're looking at only one side of the economic equation. The other side is that the customer base who have no problem with enabling the features in their scopes in this way will view a scope they can do that with as a better value for their money, and they'll thus buy the scope without hesitation. The end result is that the manufacturer gets greater sales than their competitors, and thus more profit.
As I already said, a manufacturer will either price their goods in such a way as to take what customers are actually doing with them into account, or they'll have trouble staying in business. It doesn't necessarily follow that their prices will be higher and, indeed, they may end up being lower due to better return on the mass production investment.
And additionally, you presume that implementing the locking system in the way I previously described is so much more costly that it'll have a significant effect on the prices. But that's not the case at all. The method of implementation is trivial. Given that the Rigol codes clearly are derived from the serial number, it's even possible that Rigol's approach is more expensive than the method I outlined, because the approach I outlined is a standard one that is implemented throughout the software industry, as it is used as part of the SSL key verification mechanism in every browser in existence, and any other piece of software that has to do key verification.
Put another way, just because a customer can attempt to take actions to bypass a lock doesn't mean he has the right to succeed in that. I do not argue that customers have the right to succeed in their attempts, only that they have the right to make the attempt.
This is one of the most curious things about your post. Very curious. I'll have to think on that. I'm thinking of Kwikset locks. They are the most common house/door/deadbolt lock in the US. And you can pick them with a couple of bobby pins in under a minute. But that doesn't matter, because the lock is just there to keep honest people honest. * In some way I think unlocking the Rigol for business use is not exactly honest, since there are other easy options to get what you need from Rigol and from other companies. Just an opinion.
Well, "honest" or not, it's not something most companies will find is worth doing, because they tend to value support more highly than the temporary financial benefits they might gain by unlocking the scope.
I'm also thinking back to my childhood where you could stick a pin in the bottom of the cable box and get the pay channels for free, lol.
Heh. Yep. Is it your fault the cable companies contracted with a hardware company that clearly didn't know what it was doing (or didn't care)? Nope.
At the end of the day, the deal is this: buyers are not responsible for the sellers' actions, and sellers are not responsible for the buyers' actions. They each have to respond to the actions of the other, however, in whatever way suits their needs. If they think of a mutually beneficial arrangement, they are free to make that arrangement, just as they are free to back out of it if it suits them. There is no reason actors in the market cannot be (generally -- there are a few narrow exceptions, as with anything else) completely free in what they do, save for limits on distribution of trivially-copied works. The latter limits exist to equalize the market in trivially-copied works with the market of physical goods, so as to encourage people to create trivially-copied works.
The action under discussion, that would be artificially limited if some had their way, is the ability to enter a magic code into the oscilloscope one owns so as to enable the features that were not enabled prior to that, even if he didn't obtain the code from the seller or one of the seller's authorized representatives.
Wow, this is really hamstringing the customers' ability to use the device as they see fit! Who'd a thunk on my list of features when buying a scope I would be specifically looking for "the ability to enter a magic code... so as to enable features [that many customers willingly pay for]."
The action is a gating function. It makes possible other actions. So through prevention of this one action, other actions are also being prevented.
But even if the action itself were the only one being considered, being artificially restrained from performing it is still a restraint, a limitation on your freedom. And limitations on freedom demand good reason.
No, you're looking at only one side of the economic equation. The other side is that the customer base who have no problem with enabling the features in their scopes in this way will view a scope they can do that with as a better value for their money, and they'll thus buy the scope without hesitation. The end result is that the manufacturer gets greater sales than their competitors, and thus more profit.
I disagree. There is no way you can make this conclusion.
My sincere apologies!
I wrote that really badly, because I didn't mean to say that I disagreed with you. I only meant to add an additional possibility, not replace your possibility with mine!
Which is to say, it's entirely possible for both factors to be in play at the same time.
Which factor ends up dominating the equation is a very interesting question in its own right, and probably depends on the circumstances.
If it really increased the cost of the base model to other customers, then how do you explain how Rigol manages to sell their DS1054Z for such a low price when they have arguably the most "hackable" (sorry, "easily modifiable") scope on the market?
What does one have to do with the other? "Increased" cost is relative.
But it is also absolute, because we're talking about a competitive marketplace where other manufacturers are making roughly equivalent products and selling them in competition, and the cost of development adds to the floor on the price one can charge for what one is building. Since R&D costs are spread across the number of units sold, it follows that one will get a greater return on R&D dollars if one sells a larger number of units, and therefore one can sell at a lower price and realize the same amount of profit from the same R&D if one sells a larger number of units. And yes, there are many other factors involved, including the ones you mentioned.
If the "hackability" of a scope makes it more appealing to a large segment of the customer base, that represents the opportunity for greater sales and thus a greater return on investment. That is counterbalanced by the potential of larger per-unit profit for models configured to be more capable, of course, so there is tension between the two approaches. Each represents the possibility of greater profit. And as these scopes are competing against those from other manufacturers, it may well be that the additional appeal from "hackability" is what makes the difference in which manufacturer dominates. As Rigol appears to now be dominating the low-end market (I haven't seen any evidence that they were prior to the DS1054Z) and their scopes are more "hackable", there is every reason to suspect a link between the two. But it may also be that the value proposition of the DS1054Z as it comes configured is sufficient to explain that, too. And yet a third explanation is that Rigol got there with the DS1054Z first.
Yes, they sell the DS1054Z at a very attractive price, even if you leave out the "hackability." For a 4 channel 50MHz DSO, you will be shocked at how cheap this is compared to the competition. How cheap they sell it has no bearing on the fact that introducing a stronger key lock will increase their cost..... and how they distribute that cost is up them, but the most likely scenario, IMO, is an increase to the cost of the base unit.
That may be. I'll put it plainly: if "hacking" of these scopes represented a significant financial downside relative to the profit the manufacturer could be making without it, then the manufacturer would easily make up the difference in implementation costs, and would therefore have plenty of incentive to implement the system I referred to.
So: either Rigol is being stupid in making it possible for their scopes to be "hacked" in this way, and as a result will suffer financially for it, or they aren't. I submit that they aren't, and that the popularity of their low-end scopes is evidence of that.
Rigol is great for hobbyists. Hobbyists can buy and hack their Rigol. No one cares. But I don't agree with some of the reasoning/justifications that are being used.
Sure, I get that. But the question can be framed one of two ways:
- Why should people "hack" their Rigol scope the way they are?
- Why shouldn't people "hack" their Rigol scope the way they are?
People have been focusing primarily on arguments around the latter.
I come back 6 days later, expecting to see the thread has died without me stirring sh** up; and I find YOU of all people making exactly the same arguments I was making. Why again were we arguing?
I ESPECIALLY agree with
THESE POINTS.Please forgive me if I mistakenly attribute any of my highlighted points; in all honesty, even with the computer as a scorecard, this discussion has become so complicated and recursive it is hard to keep track. I repeatedly used the word "lazy" in description of how Rigol chose to apply their "product limitations", and for GOOD REASON. If they WEREN'T being lazy, then they were either being downright STUPID, or they were deliberately "leaving the treasure map lying around" by not altering their security on the device after all these years. We're talking 7 years now, since the original "hack" was discovered, I believe.
If one argues that they haven't made their R&D back on this product by NOW, one is outright delusional. I know from my own time in the hot seat that if a company doesn't expect to recoup those costs and SEE PROFIT from the first one or two production runs, upper management is going to pull the plug on your project in a heartbeat. These people are NOTORIOUS for being interested in one thing: SHORT TERM PROFIT. Over and Over again. They have the attention span of gnats, and WILL NOT PLAN more than a few quarters ahead even if you tie them up and hold their feet to the fire.
The only place this isn't true is in Military Contracting; where we the Taxpayer get to foot the R&D bill on a cost-plus basis. You know, that business model that pays Halliburton cost-plus to set fire to a $50K truck because they don't have spare tires or the motor blows up because they don't stock oil & filters for regular maintenance.
I don't believe there's a lot of THAT Business Model happening in China-Direct electronics manufacturing.
If a manufacturer chooses to make a single product to cover numerous different product segments, they have the right to do so. If they choose to implement that choice in a manner that makes the product easy to modify into the higher-priced priced model, they have the right to do THAT as well. But they HAVE TO accept the consequences of that choice; namely, that some people are going to try and figure out HOW.
If a user chooses to mod their product into a more capable product, whether by dint of applying their own skills and knowledge to do so, or by using a tool devised by someone with the knowledge, they HAVE THAT RIGHT, provided they are willing to accept the consequences of their actions; namely that by choosing to do so, they GIVE UP the right to warranty service. PERIOD. Even if there is a failure that is rightly the responsibility of the manufacturer, it is unreasonable to expect them to fix it AFTER you have modified the product. You and they both have no way of knowing FOR SURE that you didn't cause the failure by modding the product or by accident WHILE modding the product; and truthfully, the manufacturer should NOT be expected to expend resources trying to figure that out.
Arguing that the user should be able to expect Warranty Service after attempting to mod their product is, in a way, arguing that they should be able to expect to succeed in that attempt.
Arguing what today's written laws say is pointless.
If something becomes widespread enough to affect a large company's business model then laws will appear. Bet on it.
I should note that this is an invalid argument.
It's not an argument, it's an observation.
Large companies can (and do) buy laws for themselves. Laws that can harm consumers.
Ask yourself why TTIP is being "negotiated" in secret with no public input.
Today's laws make the framework we currently operate under. If you want to pretend that you operate under a more restrictive framework than that, you can certainly do so, but if you do that, then how far are you going to take it? Are you going to make no modifications to your automobile, for instance, to improve its capability? Are you going to refrain from improving anything you have, just because a future framework of law might forbid it?
It's your call, but I'd advise living for today (while ensuring, of course, that what you have remains sufficient for tomorrow). Get the most of what you have while you can, because in all of this, time is your most precious and limited resource.
Thanks for the sympathy and kind words over my imaginary condition.
But ... save them for those who think that today's written laws are what define morality/right/wrong. Laws are bought and sold by the rich. People who believe this system is right/moral need your sympathy more than me.
Ummm... yup.
I made these very same points, expressed slightly differently, on several occasions. Law doesn't make right, and laws are bought and sold every day. Our Corporate Overlords have done such a good job of selling their right to their position of superiority that even intelligent, informed, and reasonably independent-minded folks possessed of all their faculties and reason tend to think FIRST of the Corporations' rights under the law (Or worse yet, what those Corporations WISH their rights were, whether so or not) rather than THEIR OWN rights.
Kindof sad, really.
mnem
6 days later...