Recommend me a Scope!

[Flump]

Hi Guys
first post so be gentle lol


Im looking to buy a scope and my budget is about £250.
it will b used for general hobby electronics, nothing professional.

I have none/very little experience with Oscilloscopes so something
basic and not too complicated but something that will do me for
a good few years, I dont think I need more that 50mhz
of bandwidth, but on screen display of frequency and voltage a must.

I'm open to usb or normal Scopes, was thinking about getting the Owon SDS7102,
but Dave gave the Owon 300mhz them such a bad review its put me off them.


looking forward to any sugestions you might have

[Clint]

I would plumb for the OWON - Have a search there are plenty of people on here who use and love them, I was going to buy one and would still have except make sure its the latest revision see the thread on here about that, there is a guy on ebay who sells them for £259 inc delivery for the latest one.

[hammy]

There are threads about the Rigol DS1052E and a Model from UNI-T. They are in this price range.
Optional: Both can increase their bandwidth with firmware updates posted here. 

[Flump]

I'm kinda put off the owon now it after watching the vid, also the main owon thread in here
seems to be mostly about people finding problems with it.

Rigol 1052e looks nice but small screen and a bit old now so was hoping there was something better
on the market seeing how electronics technology moves on so fast.

Siglent SDS1102DL looks to be similar to the 100mhz owon but i cant find any decent reviews on it
price is atractive too
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330997358275?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

[Legit-Design]

Is it worth getting one of those cheap scopes and possibly being stuck with one which has faulty input circuitry? Like Dave had in one of his reviews? Usually there is no warranty, since the price is cheap. Is rigol ds1052E still best bet in getting good quality scope? Reliable scope which will not crap out and will perform like advertised, no nasty surprises when manufacturer saved few cents and you got scope which is a toy at best?

[Flump]

Theres another Siglent aswell but their website does not list the differences between them

Siglent SDS1102CNL
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SIGLENT-SDS1102CNL-with-larger-display-like-ADS1102CAL-/181146973481?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item2a2d337529

Siglent SDS1102DL
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330997358275?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 

[JuanPC]

Hi Guys
first post so be gentle lol


Im looking to buy a scope and my budget is about £250.
it will b used for general hobby electronics, nothing professional.

I have none/very little experience with Oscilloscopes so something
basic and not too complicated but something that will do me for
a good few years, I dont think I need more that 50mhz
of bandwidth, but on screen display of frequency and voltage a must.

I'm open to usb or normal Scopes, was thinking about getting the Owon SDS7102,
but Dave gave the Owon 300mhz them such a bad review its put me off them.


looking forward to any sugestions you might have

The Best in the Low Budget Scopes is the Instek GDS-1102A-U.

here is a review of the Instek vs. the Siglent CML vs. Agilent DSOX2002A. "70MHz 2GSa/s 100kpts."

[sync]

The Best in the Low Budget Scopes is the Instek GDS-1102A-U.

Do you own one? What is your experience with it?

Looking at the datasheet i'm not impressed and for the price i found for it, i would go for an Rigol 1000Z.

[Flump]

Thanks for the link to the video Juan, very imformative

however the Instek GDS-1102A-U is way to expensive for me
cheapest i can find is £355 from USA with £171 postage lol!

really I cant spend anymore than £250 :/

[echen1024]

Do you really need the storage functionalities? If not, go grab your self a second hand analog Tek like this one:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TEKTRONIX-MODEL-2445B-200-MHZ-OSCILLOSCOPE-/181133822050?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item2a2c6ac862

[BravoV]

Do you really need the storage functionalities? If not, go grab your self a second hand analog Tek like this one:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TEKTRONIX-MODEL-2445B-200-MHZ-OSCILLOSCOPE-/181133822050?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item2a2c6ac862

Item condition : For parts or not working 

Btw,  the whole huge logic board is gone. 

[Wytnucls]

The Rigol DS1052E now costs a measly 219 GBP + VAT in the UK. Perfect scope for a beginner.
Screen size and resolution are not an inconvenience for most tasks.
I didn't bother upgrading the bandwidth on mine, preferring to keep my 3 year warranty valid.
Well worth considering on your budget.

http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/ds1000e-series-digital-oscilloscope/

[Flump]

echen that scope is lovely, would be very tempting if it was in the UK and complete.
i love old analogue scopes.


wytnucls will the will the 1052e accurately measure frequencies up to 50mhz ?
i read on here somewhere that you need to add 1/3 or something
 on top of the quoted bandwidth, like to measure 50mhz you really need 75mhz scope.

yeah i wouldnt want to do the bandwigth hack either, not unless i really needed the extra 50mhz


are the 1052e and 1102e identical apart from bandwidth ?

thanks all for the advice so far

[EEVblog]

Is rigol ds1052E still best bet in getting good quality scope? Reliable scope which will not crap out and will perform like advertised, no nasty surprises when manufacturer saved few cents and you got scope which is a toy at best?

Yes, the Rigol IMO is still the only cheap scope that is a proven robust performer.
The rest might be better bang-per-buck, but you "take's ya chances" more than with the Rigol.
Your choice, pros and cons both ways.

[Wytnucls]

wytnucls will the will the 1052e accurately measure frequencies up to 50mhz ?
i read on here somewhere that you need to add 1/3 or something
 on top of the quoted bandwidth, like to measure 50mhz you really need 75mhz scope.

yeah i wouldnt want to do the bandwigth hack either, not unless i really needed the extra 50mhz


are the 1052e and 1102e identical apart from bandwidth ?

thanks all for the advice so far

Sorry, I can't answer your frequency question, my function gen maxes out at 20MHz.
I understand that both scopes are identical as far as hardware is concerned.

[sync]

wytnucls will the will the 1052e accurately measure frequencies up to 50mhz ?

Yes, it will even measure much higher frequencies. The 1052E has a build in hardware counter. Use this for accurate measurements. It counts the trigger events. As long you have a stable triggering from your signal it works.

I measured once a 80MHz crystal oscillator with my unhacked 1052E without problems. I'm sure it will go even higher. It's now hacked and i have done measurements over 200MHz.

[Flump]

thanks very much sync sound like 1052e will be ideal for me.

Rigol it is then 

[alm]

wytnucls will the will the 1052e accurately measure frequencies up to 50mhz ?
i read on here somewhere that you need to add 1/3 or something
 on top of the quoted bandwidth, like to measure 50mhz you really need 75mhz scope.

The bandwidth is the point at which the amplitude of the signal as seen on the scope will be down by -3 dB. So 1 Vrms 50 MHz sine would look as a 0.7 Vrms 50 MHz sine on a 50 MHz scope (probably slightly higher since scopes tend to have slightly more bandwidth that advertised). Attenuation of signals beyond 50 MHz will be even stronger, about -20 dB/decade in theory. So a 100 MHz 1Vrms sine would be down by -9 dB, or down to approximately 0.35 Vrms. A 50 MHz square wave will pretty much look like a sine, since all the higher harmonics (150 MHz, 250 MHz, 350 MHz) that make up the square wave will be severely attenuated.

So to get a decent impression of the shape of a signal you want significantly more bandwidth than the fundamental frequency of the signal, say five times more. Even more if you want to do accurate rise time measurements. Frequency is much more forgiving, however. For most signals measuring frequency should be fine as long as the fundamental is not attenuated too much. So unless you're talking extremely low levels, you should easily be able to measure a 50 MHz frequency. Not sure at which frequency the trigger and frequency counter stop working, I would expect frequencies up to at least 100 MHz to work fine.

[echen1024]

Do you really need the storage functionalities? If not, go grab your self a second hand analog Tek like this one:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TEKTRONIX-MODEL-2445B-200-MHZ-OSCILLOSCOPE-/181133822050?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item2a2c6ac862

Item condition : For parts or not working 

Btw,  the whole huge logic board is gone. 

Oh dear. I didn't notice... 

[Flump]

Thanks very much alm

I am a totaly new to scopes so that was a good bit of info for me 

[JuanPC]

will the will the 1052e accurately measure frequencies up to 50mhz ?
i read on here somewhere that you need to add 1/3 or something
 on top of the quoted bandwidth, like to measure 50mhz you really need 75mhz scope.

yeah i wouldnt want to do the bandwigth hack either, not unless i really needed the extra 50mhz


thanks all for the advice so far

Square No.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-me-pick-the-right-scope-2/msg241533/#msg241533

GSa/s play a mayor role digitizing the Waveform,
over 10MHz SQuaRe you need 350MHz 5GSa/s RealTime minimum, to be  accurately.

[alm]

I kind of glossed over this fact, although my comment about accurate rise time measurements alluded to it. The accurate representation of square waves/pulses is about their edges. You show some results for ideal square waves with infinitely short rise times. How much of these have you encountered in actual circuits? Fortunately all real signals have a finite rise time. A 1 MHz signal might have a 0.5 ns rise time (eg. the Jim Williams pulse generator), while a 50 MHz square wave might have a rise time of 5 ns. The former requires a much faster scope to accurately represent the signal.

How accurate the scope represents the edges depends on the rise / fall time of the signal, and how this compares to the rise time of the scope + probe system. The rise time of the Rigol DS1052E is 7 ns, so the rise time it shows is fairly accurate for signals with a rise time substantially longer than 7 ns. How much longer? See this Agilent appnote. Ignore the stuff about maximally flat response, the Rigol DS1052E has a Gaussian response.

[sync]

Sorry, i may misunderstood your question. I thought it was about measuring the frequency in Hz. This can be done precisely with the building hardware frequency counter (exceeding the rated bandwidth).

Regarding the displayed waveforms. These are looking more and more sinusoidal before the rated bandwidth and the amplitude will drop. Alm explained it already. Look at these videos. They show the bandwidth roll off of oscilloscopes and how a square wave is composed from it's harmonics.





Probing at several MHz is not easy any more. Your probe changes the waveform itself due capacitive loading. And the ground connection of the probe will distort the measurement.



Precise measuring a 50MHz square waveform is hard. You need really expensive equipment and know what you are doing (i'm not). But generally it is not needed. For a digital signal the most interesting thing is if it's low or high. You can see this even when the edges are rounded. And even at low frequencies an oscilloscope has only a few percent of vertical (voltage) accuracy. Generally an oscilloscope is not a precision instrument.

About the Rigol DS1052E. It's my only DSO but i using analog oscilloscopes since a long time. I think it's a solid performer. But it's has some downsides:
No intensity grading (analog like display). Not in your budget.
The knobs between the channel are shared (i hate this).
Small low resolution display.
Loud fan (can be fixed by replacing it).

After looking at the Owon and Hantek reviews (not only from Dave) i would chose the Rigol again if my budget is small.

PS: Look at the other videos from w2aew. They are very good.

[edy]

I took Dave's advice and picked up this beauty (see videos below) from eBay for $85 US and came with 2 probes, free shipping, all in! It has on-screen cursors and frequency counter. If you are just beginning and looking for a scope to "cut your teeth on" then why not buy a used analog CRO from a local shop or eBay? Really depends on what you plan on doing with it.

I'm just beginning to have fun and so learning the basics of filters, oscillators and so on, no digital stuff and no need for storage, so this Hitachi is more than I could have hoped for as a beginner scope for learning:



And part 2:




I highly recommend you watch Dave's EEVBlog video called "Buy an Analog Scope Please" and his video on finding a $50 scope on eBay. Also, take a look at Youtube channel and user "w2aew" (Alan) videos. Your original post mentioned you never had an oscilloscope, so Dave's wisdom from the video was if you want to learn then an analog CRO will give you a ton of fun.... Not just "push a button" to get automatic settings.

He also mentioned the pitfalls with laptop USB scope or a DSO nano. You'll see I also have the Gabotronics XProtolab (in the video above) and while it is a fun tool for $50 to play with, I still went out and bought a CRO. If you are patient and don't mind a used scope, just watch listings for a few weeks on eBay and pretty soon you'll find something like I did, or check out local shops or classifieds for analog used and you'll save yourself some money and get a nice learning tool.

UPDATE:

I just received a notification from eBay on this wonderful beginner Kikusui 20Mhz scope... Perhaps a bit on the "lower" end but maybe still useful for your needs, or someone else reading this thread:

eBay auction: #121153195166

It says it works, it is "BUY IT NOW" and shipping is $20 expedited. Very reasonable!!!! I'm not the owner... just wanted to pass on the deal, since it was in a watch list (almost bought it until my others came around).  It even allows offers, so I'm sure an offer of $45-50 might even be accepted, but I wouldn't take the chance... just grab it! You're in the UK so it may not be worth the shipping from Texas  though.