Refusing delivery from AliExpress?

[gtm]

Actually it's not so much the VAT that worries me. It's the big handling fees on 3€-5€ valued items: silicone grease, enammelled wire. Once the new system gets into place it probably won't be so bad. But if you can't wait and need to order don't delay, do it today!

The VAT is not an issue for most things people order from China, that's pennies. The problem will be the aggravation with the extra paperwork and the filling fees slapped on it by the shippers if you let them handle it for you. E.g. DHL is charging about 20 euro custom filling fee, regardless of whether any customs are actually due. Simply for submitting the paperwork. So something like a box of PCBs from JLCPCB could suddenly get a heck lot more expensive ...

Well that's the thing, we don't really know how it's going to play out, at least I don't. I've heard it was going to simplify things and that you would  pay VAT to the seller, in this case Aliexpress, who would collect it on behalf of governments and slap a "VAT paid" label on the package, so no customs processing and no handling fees. But there's too many unknowns.

[gtm]

the new VAT rules come into force on 1s July

Oh, I hadn't seen those...!

So from next month every last parcel will have VAT applied? 

Probably not. Aliexpress will ship to the EU from a warehouse inside the EU. I already had several items shipped from a EU warehouse which got rid of dealing with VAT and resulted in faster delivery as well. If collecting tax on Chinese parcels was intended to help 'local' EU webshops then it failed miserably. Aliexpress seems to have adapted quickly and swiftly.

Yes, Banggood does the same. But it's usually expensive and medium-valued items, not the 5€ stuff.
In the case of the Spanish warehouse they take advantage of a loophole in the spanish system, which allows them to ship it in bulk and declare it as for intended sale outside of the EU, hence without paying any VAT.  The goods spend a couple of days in storage in some facilities in whatever port, and after that they're retrieved after paying some storage fees (which is much less than VAT) and moved to Banggood's or Aliexpress own warehouse. That's how we get stuff VAT free from Aliexpress.
But even that loophole could eventually get closed.

[janoc]

Well that's the thing, we don't really know how it's going to play out, at least I don't. I've heard it was going to simplify things and that you would  pay VAT to the seller, in this case Aliexpress, who would collect it on behalf of governments and slap a "VAT paid" label on the package, so no customs processing and no handling fees. But there's too many unknowns.

Well, yes - but that assumes that Ali will actually be interested in playing ball because this means a very non-trivial investment on their side in order to track which purchases were for EU customers, they will have to register for VAT within EU (fairly complex matter and imposes a lot of financial constraints and EU law on the company) and will have to periodically pay it. That's an enormous task and it is well possible they will just shrug and not do anything, leaving it up to the recipients to deal with the issue on package per package basis.

Probably not. Aliexpress will ship to the EU from a warehouse inside the EU. I already had several items shipped from a EU warehouse which got rid of dealing with VAT and resulted in faster delivery as well. If collecting tax on Chinese parcels was intended to help 'local' EU webshops then it failed miserably. Aliexpress seems to have adapted quickly and swiftly.

AliExpress, Banggood and others had EU warehouses for many years - and it had nothing to do with "adapting" to these rules but with faster and cheaper shipping for bulkier but popular items (like 3D printers or tools).

Also, only a very small fraction of goods available on AliExpress are available from EU warehouses - the seller has to sell enough of the widgets to qualify for it and I even believe they have to pay Ali for the privilege of having the goods "prepositioned" in EU (or elsewhere - like US) because the warehouses cost money and are not unlimited in size, unlike stuff that is shipped directly from China where it is often the seller themselves taking care of any logistics (stocking, packing and shipping the order), no AliExpress. So it is mostly only the larger and more expensive items sold in large quantities that are found there, nothing else.

[Fungus]

I am still waiting for a package ordered in March that is showing that the "package is ready for shipping". I guess something that never got sent but as the delivery window is until end of June, I have to wait with the dispute ...

No you don't. Just send the seller a request to cancel it then order from someone else.

The problem will be the aggravation with the extra paperwork and the filling fees slapped on it by the shippers, E.g. DHL is charging about 20 euro custom filling fee, regardless of whether any customs are actually due.

The new rules specifically allow companies like Aliexpress to collect the VAT at the point of sale then ship things pre-paid. No more hidden fees, no paperwork at the border.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/oss_en

[janoc]

I am still waiting for a package ordered in March that is showing that the "package is ready for shipping". I guess something that never got sent but as the delivery window is until end of June, I have to wait with the dispute ...

No you don't. Just send the seller a request to cancel it then order from someone else.

Once the item is showing as "sent" in the AliExpress system you can't cancel (or rather that would be dependent only on the good will of the seller - I did contact them already and they just told me to "wait a bit longer"). And it is showing as "sent", it is the tracking info that is stuck at that message. It could well be some problem with the shipping company or a package forgotten/dropped somewhere in a warehouse, who knows. But as far as AliExpress is concerned, the seller has fulfilled their obligations.

Ali's system shows that there is "No updated logistic information" and 17Track shows this:

https://t.17track.net/en#nums=LT696220165NL

The problem will be the aggravation with the extra paperwork and the filling fees slapped on it by the shippers, E.g. DHL is charging about 20 euro custom filling fee, regardless of whether any customs are actually due.

The new rules specifically allow companies like Aliexpress to collect the VAT at the point of sale then ship things pre-paid. No more hidden fees, no paperwork at the border.

You have completely missed the point. The issue is not whether the rules allow it but whether the seller (or AliExpress in this instance) will actually bother with it because it is a huge extra expense for them. See what happened when UK has introduced similar rule in January post brexit - a lot of EU companies have rather refused to serve their UK customers because they don't want to have to deal with such onerous obligation (collecting UK VAT and submitting to UK tax rules).

My guess is that the large majority of online stores from outside the EU certainly won't bother.

Banggood maybe will because they are acting as a single company (the buyer deals only with Banggood) and they have an EU presence already, AFAIK (which you need to collect VAT). AliExpress is just a marketplace like eBay and I can't see how they are going to rope the millions of small sellers there to submit all the tax paperwork, issue proper invoices, etc so that they can collect EU VAT on behalf of the EU buyers (but not others). Maybe they will do it but the chances aren't high.

And the likes of JLCPCB, PCBWay and similar - extremely unlikely. Or heck, even Digikey - that's where I have been regularly hit by those 20 bucks filing fees from UPS or DHL (don't remember which one they use now).

[SL4P]

They invented the three letters RMA for this exact reason.

[Fungus]

The new rules specifically allow companies like Aliexpress to collect the VAT at the point of sale then ship things pre-paid. No more hidden fees, no paperwork at the border.

You have completely missed the point. The issue is not whether the rules allow it but whether the seller (or AliExpress in this instance) will actually bother with it because it is a huge extra expense for them.

I don't think AliExpress can afford NOT to do it - their European business will disappear overnight if we have to pay 25 euros extra on every order.

AliExpress is just a marketplace like eBay and I can't see how they are going to rope the millions of small sellers there to submit all the tax paperwork, issue proper invoices, etc so that they can collect EU VAT on behalf of the EU buyers (but not others). Maybe they will do it but the chances aren't high.

Simple: Aliexpress processes the payments, not the sellers.

They don't have to pass the paperwork along (that would be stupid!)

[tunk]

Around here both eBay and Aliexpress collects the VAT on behalf of the seller.
I.e. the sellers doesn't have to do anything. And when they do it for a small
market like this, I would be very surprised if they don't do it for most (all?)
european countries. The alternative is paying VAT at entry and a handling fee,
~18us$ if handled by the postal service.

[Fungus]

a lot of EU companies have rather refused to serve their UK customers

They voted to separate themselves, so...   

(...it's up to them to figure out a way to fix all the problems they just created)

[janoc]

a lot of EU companies have rather refused to serve their UK customers

They voted to separate themselves, so...   

(...it's up to them to figure out a way to fix all the problems they just created)

You are really really trying hard to miss the point I have made, don't you?

I don't care about who is to clean up any messes, the point was that when companies are faced with such bureaucratic obstacle and can afford to avoid having to do it, they will. Even if it costs them part of their business.

I don't think AliExpress can afford NOT to do it - their European business will disappear overnight if we have to pay 25 euros extra on every order.

Well, the filling fees won't be that high (most people don't use DHL to ship their 5 EUR widgets, or even none if people do the paperwork themselves) but yes, it will be certainly an extra aggravation and if the governments within EU implement the various declaration portals (most seem to be going with online solutions for it) poorly, it will certainly harm their business.

AliExpress is just a marketplace like eBay and I can't see how they are going to rope the millions of small sellers there to submit all the tax paperwork, issue proper invoices, etc so that they can collect EU VAT on behalf of the EU buyers (but not others). Maybe they will do it but the chances aren't high.

Simple: Aliexpress processes the payments, not the sellers.

They don't have to pass the paperwork along (that would be stupid!)

It is not about "passing paperwork". But e.g. I have seen the Slovak portal where you will be declaring these packages from the 1st of July and it is asking about things like invoice numbers, seller's addresses, etc. Where can the recipient of the package find those? Normally on a business invoice - and good luck getting that from one of the Shenzen sellers on AliExpress (or AliExpress itself).

And re collecting the tax - sure they can do it, but in order to do so they have to be registered within EU for paying the tax - and thus will be also liable for other related things (including e.g. tax audits - there are tons of frauds around VAT, so audits and checks are strict and frequent). And if they are collecting tax they will need to give you also a receipt/invoice otherwise when your package arrives you will have no way to prove to the customs it has been paid.

None of that is the case yet.

Oh and they will get GDPR too - which they are subject to already but if they are not incorporated in EU they are unlikely to get issues with it. Once they start remitting the tax and will be under some EU jurisdiction, it will be different ... (and Ali collects and tracks one heck of an amount of data, even compared to Facebook ...)

Around here both eBay and Aliexpress collects the VAT on behalf of the seller.
I.e. the sellers doesn't have to do anything. And when they do it for a small
market like this, I would be very surprised if they don't do it for most (all?)
european countries. The alternative is paying VAT at entry and a handling fee,
~18us$ if handled by the postal service.

That's cool, there is hope then. eBay does it within EU too but then they are also incorporated for Europe in Luxembourg, I believe. AliExpress isn't, so I am curious how they are going to handle this. 

[janoc]

They invented the three letters RMA for this exact reason.

Did you miss the "AliExpress" part in the title of the thread? Or have never bought anything from there? Good luck trying to get an RMA from a seller on AliExpress ...

[Fungus]

You are really really trying hard to miss the point I have made, don't you?

And you seem to be missing the point that these are NEW rules so comparing with old/existing/imaginary procedures is pointless. 

e.g. I have seen the Slovak portal where you will be declaring these packages from the 1st of July and it is asking about things like invoice numbers, seller's addresses, etc. Where can the recipient of the package find those? Normally on a business invoice - and good luck getting that from one of the Shenzen sellers on AliExpress (or AliExpress itself).

Again, Aliexpress will either have to come up with a way... or go out of business. I'm betting on the former.

The people who make these rules aren't 100% stupid. They don't want Aliexpress to stop selling things in Europe, there'll be a way for Aliexpress to do it.

That's cool, there is hope then. eBay does it within EU too but then they are also incorporated for Europe in Luxembourg, I believe. AliExpress isn't, so I am curious how they are going to handle this.

Yes, eBay has been "pre-collecting" VAT for for years now but getting a VAT invoice out of them is impossible.

Let's hope that changes with the new rules.

(my theory is that eBay charges me 21% Spanish VAT, pays 3% VAT in Ireland (where the goods arrive), then pockets the 18% difference...)

[LazyJack]

(my theory is that eBay charges me 21% Spanish VAT, pays 3% VAT in Ireland (where the goods arrive), then pockets the 18% difference...)

No, it does not. As soon as the 21% is collected, they need to pay that to the state, but they can subtract or claim any VAT they payed as a buyer. Hence the name Value Added Tax.
It's not like collecting VAT in one country,then paying it in a completely different.

[Fungus]

(my theory is that eBay charges me 21% Spanish VAT, pays 3% VAT in Ireland (where the goods arrive), then pockets the 18% difference...)

No, it does not. As soon as the 21% is collected, they need to pay that to the state

My question is: Which state do they pay? Spain or Ireland?

but they can subtract or claim any VAT they payed as a buyer.

They didn't pay any VAT as a buyer.

It's not like collecting VAT in one country,then paying it in a completely different.

Why not? If I import goods in Ireland I'm then free to move them around Europe anywhere I want to. It's a common scheme, lots of companies do it.

Anything else requires you to explain why it's impossible to get a VAT invoice out of eBay for the things they import on your behalf via eBay global shipping.

https://www.google.com/search?q=eBay+global+shipping+vat+invoice

[tunk]

... otherwise when your package arrives you will have no way to prove to the customs it has been paid.

Here the seller is supposed to add "VOEC NO:xxxxxxx Code:Paid"
to the address label to say that VAT has been paid. This does not
always happen, so I've added it to the "address field 2".

More info about this:
https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/business-and-organisation/vat-and-duties/vat/foreign/e-commerce-voec/

[Fungus]

... otherwise when your package arrives you will have no way to prove to the customs it has been paid.

Here the seller is supposed to add "VOEC NO:xxxxxxx Code:Paid"
to the address label to say that VAT has been paid. This does not
always happen, so I've added it to the "address field 2".

I imagine that any new system will allow a bar code to be added to packages that will allow them to sail through customs.

(and hopefully download an invoice from the central European database that will need to be created for all this to work)

[krisgian]

So what are you gonna do after refusing delivery on AliExpress? Going by yourself in China and get your parcel? HAHAHA! Of course, the delivery from AliExpress takes a lot of time, but there is always an option for faster delivery. You will need to pay additional money, but at least you will get your parcel sooner. You can also use the package tracker to know where your parcel is and estimate how much time it will arrive approximately. Also, I don't think that there is an option of refusing delivery in AliExpress.
___________________________
https://www.packages24.com/carriers/yanwen-tracking

[Fungus]

I stopped ordering from there when the delivery took 6 months to complete...

If the delivery takes more than two or three days to provide a working tracking number (ie. one that says "accepted by airline", not just "tracking number created") then you're doing it wrong.

[blurpy]

Here the seller is supposed to add "VOEC NO:xxxxxxx Code:Paid"
to the address label to say that VAT has been paid. This does not
always happen, so I've added it to the "address field 2".

Have you heard of that having any effect, adding VOEC to the address yourself?
Not sure why the postal service would care about a message in the address, when the paperwork is missing.

Last I ordered, I had to pay VAT to Aliexpress, and they shipped the package like they always did before with a fake $10 value on the label and no papers. I've heard others in Norway who also paid VAT to Aliexpress, and got a fine from customs for faking the price, as well as having to pay VAT again and customs fees. So VOEC for me seems risky with Aliexpress.

[tatel]

For me the main point is how the carrier behaves.

Long time ago, Correos (spanish postal service) used to send a message to you warning your items were at the customs. Then you asked them for the documentation, they gave it to you, then you were able to do that paperwork and VAT payment online in some 5 minutes.

Last year, the item I bought from the US arrived to my city without any warning, then at the post office I was told that, to do the paperwork myself, item would have to be returned to customs first (probably a lie), so I paid their 20 euro fee.

This week, at the same postal office, I asked about the situation after July, 1st, the said to me that, should the parcel arrive to the office, I would have to pay the fee anyway. They don't have a clue about sending any warnings when the parcel is at customs, and don't seem to care about, frankly.

Things are already much worse with private carriers. Two months ago, TNT/FedEx fucked me bad. After I asked them for the documentation, they splitted my shipment in three, never gave to me any list of goods included in each of these three saparated shipments, declared fake weights so to deduce these list was impossible, declared an unknown country of origin in the third shipment... so to have it all passing through customs has been a more-than-45-days nightmare. Goods were released from customs, 10 kms from my door, past Monday, yet they have to be delivered to me. Very fine people in TNT/FedEx. Really.

So, for me, it's going to be "wait and see". I'm quite upset with the carriers right now. So much that I could even pray for them to get a Vlad Tepes treatment.