Author Topic: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions  (Read 24779 times)

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Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #150 on: June 19, 2020, 08:48:35 am »
I know a few chaps have suffered from this with the 5000, we have not at all on any of 5/7 and 8000 Rigol models.

Interesting you say this ...

I had been watching (several times) various teardowns on 5000 and 7000
- as the 5000 was released after the 7000, Rigol appears to have made some mods in general shielding and power distribution
- at least different to the 7000
- better in MHO ...

That said, I'm thinking that the RF susceptibility could be software related ??

How could that be, you might ask?

Well one thing that comes to mind
- if I configure the front-end ASIC to 'listen' on FULL BW its capable
- sure I'm going to 'open the door' for some unwanted RF to enter  :P

To mitigate this (an example), one would limit the front end ASIC to only listen for the MSO's defined BW.

Maybe this is already implemented
- just thinking aloud here
- as to why some of the 5000's could have this problem with stray RF fields

Another potential problem is ‘poor’ power supply filtering.

Under static (non RF field testing) the PSU can pass with flying colours.

However if ‘stray RF’ (even low level pulse) enters its ‘control loop / regulation’ subsystem
– this will manifest in all sort of potential problems with the signal processing of the MSO.

One quick fix (very easy and low cost)
- is to put the ‘supply’ cable which plugs-into the main board through a large Ferrite Core for Power Supply Decoupling (see attached picture)
– doing this can only improve and protect from any future problems.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if the general susceptibility of the 5000 to RF is related to early batch or FW revisions.

I wonder if they ‘changed’ the revision on the PSU from the early release HW to current release??

OR

– the overall HW revision designation
– also covers the PSU changes??
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #151 on: June 19, 2020, 08:56:26 am »
- is to put the ‘supply’ cable which plugs-into the main board through a large Ferrite Core for Power Supply Decoupling (see attached picture)

oops ... sorry forgot to attach the picture  |O
 

Online tautech

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #152 on: June 19, 2020, 08:58:05 am »
... and set for a general 7.5Ghz sweep ...

I wish (he says with envy) - not all of us are as fortunate to enter the 7.5Ghz club :P
But 3.2 GHz is possible.  ;)
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #153 on: June 19, 2020, 12:37:14 pm »
Hi noreply

None of our units have this problem that's been reported I have found another potential issue, just curious of you can replicated on your 5000.

You can rule out power supply noise coupling and pretty much all of the  conducted emissions I have taken care of that on my personal models. I rebuilt them to a standard I am now happy with.

I also use a interesting mains filtration device that helps no end with a lot of unwanted UK rubbish (but not all)

Having been all over the 5/7/8000 scopes with rf probes, rf current probes and LISN's I would be interested in anything you may find, the shielding on the 8000 is particularly good with rf fingers absolutely everywhere. Though not surprising as the FFT function goes way beyond 3.7Ghz.

One of the points you listed may be pertinent possible ADC noise, nearly finished out internal reworking of many of the localized power supplies and decoupling on the 8000 board.   

Sorry I wasn't being funny 7.5Ghz is my lowest normal SA. Even with 3.2Ghz you may find some something worth looking at.

Many thanks

Sighound
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #154 on: June 19, 2020, 02:05:51 pm »

Sorry I wasn't being funny 7.5Ghz is my lowest normal SA ...

Sure, no worries - this was MY tong-in-cheek remark  ;)

tv warned me about you and the insatiable quest for high end (not label - but performance) kit - it can be addictive and danger to my wallet :P

If you use your 'kit' to make a living - that's great - best of both worlds - love what you do and get paid for doing it  :clap:

Unfortunately at this moment in time - my 'kit' is more hobby / quest for knowledge than paying the bills  :(

But yeah .. I hear what you say  :)

I've got some housekeeping to do before deploying the 5000, like get all of my attenuators working (building a 30dB 250W attenuator for high level RF stuff), connectors, probes, PSU's , etc,etc - all in a nice and ergonomic workstation style bench / desk.

I also have got the Rigol PLA2216 Active Logic Probe kit - so am eager to do some digital testing with the 5000

To get me going my Rigol distributor was kind enough to provide me with the DS6000-DK Demo Board (attached picture) for extended loan.

Not sure if other forum members have ever used this device - it’s got an Cyclone III as the core - so don't know what exactly Rigol configured here (other than the obvious) - or whether there is a way to control the FPGA directly - so we could have ‘full’ control with this demo HW  :-\


For about GBP200 – for use as ‘demo board’ to generate test signals – it’s a ‘rip-off’

BUT

If we can program the FPGA and create our own test vectors – this then becomes a valuable tool for the GBP200

Any input on the is welcome ..

Anyway, I look forward in getting ALL my kit 'up and running' - so I can then start to do the really interesting stuff  :P
 
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Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #155 on: June 19, 2020, 03:03:02 pm »
BTW Sighound ...

Have you seen this bit of 'kit' - SM200C — 20 GHz Real-time Spectrum Analyser with 10GbE

It can tune from 100 kHz to 20 GHz

AND

It can sweep at 1 THz/sec at 30 kHz RBW
It just scraped under uncle sam's ATF regulations - so we can buy it  ;)


... PLEASE don't tell me you got one already  :P  (I'm Joking, I really AM - after all its made by a company, Signalhound,  not very far removed from your eevblog 'tag' Sighound - only difference is 'na' - short for no, I don't have one  :P - so I hope you can forgive me for posting this with a double tong-in-cheek)

But if I win 'lotto' and after I help my fellow human beings less fortunate AND still have some $$ left over - this WILL be on my bench for sure  ;)
 

Online Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #156 on: June 19, 2020, 05:02:49 pm »
Hi noreply

The Sighound unit looks interesting but its stops at 20Ghz its only downside unless you are using down-mixers of frequency extenders. Seriously a worth a look product  8)

There has been a version of this before I believe, still again quite an achievement  :-+

To be honest its not all about £$£ it is finding that piece of equipment that works for you personally, in the way that you work with it, and will help you in your work or quest for learning. As we really do not stop learning and EEV blog and forum are great placed to help understand those areas we are not good at.

Plus the vast majority of participants on here are genuinely happy to help unlike other hobby/interest forums.

My knowledge is ok in a few areas  :-BROKE and its nice to see so many genuinely intelligent and articulate people sharing their thoughts and ideas with the general population.

Mind you Tautech can be a pain in the arse occasionally but aside the fact he tries to flog sand to Southend on Sea council for beach reclamation, his hearts in the right place and his Siglent knowledge is well used on this forum.

Coding and myself are like Trump and common sense they don't mix, so I find the coding, FPGA and associated hardware of great interest.

Anyhow happy to help were I can

« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 05:07:36 pm by Sighound36 »
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Online tv84

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #157 on: June 19, 2020, 05:44:00 pm »
But if I win 'lotto' and after I help my fellow human beings less fortunate AND still have some $$ left over - this WILL be on my bench for sure  ;)

Don't forget you also need a "decent" PC...  :D
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #158 on: June 19, 2020, 06:22:41 pm »


Coding and myself are like Trump and common sense they don't mix, so I find the coding, FPGA and associated hardware of great interest.

Anyhow happy to help were I can

Yes .. you are 100% about the people here ..

I like the pay-it-forward approach, if you join a group of knowledgeable people - bring something to the 'table' before you start taking food from it which is not yours - where 'food' = 'knowledge'


This philosophy will always work with the people you respect - simply by default – because they are the knowledgeable individuals with whom you want to engage and share in the first place ;)


So here is something useful (at least for myself) which I found and happy as always to share with others here …

Yes I’m happy to check out the Rigol DS6000-DK Demo Board, but like I said , if it does not have some hidden capability - via the FPGS - that we can use for ‘other’ stuff, then its not a keeper for me  :(


My alternative (I’ve already hedged myself with this device) – is a cheap < GBP 10 device – a STM32F103 Nucleo-64 (see attached image) which is easy to program to use as BOTH an analogue and digital test bed for generating some test signals for use as ‘inputs’ for various devices under test that we may have.


There is LOTS of user guides for this type of device and easy to ‘break into’ the programming / coding space.


Second, useful device I have acquired are BNC Male to SMA plugs (see attached image) – the idea here is to use the AWG(s) of the MSO to directly drive my stuff – which usually has SMA connectors.


I’m slowly realizing that the cost of this

– what I call ‘glue’ bits and pieces
– slowly adds-up to more that the device you will be using the items with  |O


With the SVA, I’ve spend at least GBP500 on all sorts of connectors, attenuators, amplifiers, etc, etc, just to have a flexible instrument which I can use with many different DUT(s) that I intend to connect in the future.


I’m sure you know this aready - as so should others on this thread  :P
 

Online Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #159 on: June 19, 2020, 09:15:33 pm »
I feel you have the nail on the head there no reply

Buying the scope/sa/vna/impedance analyser/TDR device power analyser etc is just the start, the test fixtures, cabling adapters, couplets, lists, attenutators, probes etc

The costs can be almost as much as the hardware and new players (got to love Dave 8)) are not aware of what is required even for basic power measurements or rf probing etc

Now some items I have fabricated rf amplifiers breakout boxes etc.

However certain items we just have to have to enable us to achieve the desired results and you can not scrimp on them especially with ultra quiet power supplies the probes are silly money for what the really are.

Maybe worth while putting together a list of basic essential accessories for say scopes, sa and vna's and a price and performance level that will support hobbyists parameters

Our next  purchase is likely to be a higher bandwidth dedicated VNA or a TDR device though that will be after the MXR if it passes muster
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #160 on: June 19, 2020, 10:50:39 pm »

Our next  purchase is likely to be a higher bandwidth dedicated VNA or a TDR device though that will be after the MXR if it passes muster

Sounds like you have a well-equipped ship (lab)
- and I'm sure you are a first rate captain (engineer) to navigate troubled waters :P


With all the firepower of your 'ship' you must have some interesting waters into which you enter  ;)


This link is totally of topic
 
- but something I found very interesting (I think you will also)
- so wanted to share in the general chat section ...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/nixi-tube-vs-led-latency/


Sooner or later I will attempt to do the 'experiment' with LED's
 
- I should have sufficient firepower on my ship to get me some answers  :)


 

Offline Lysanthe

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #161 on: July 03, 2020, 03:27:30 pm »
Hello,

just got my MS5074 today, hacked in less than 1min (kudos to you guys here).

Tried the awg.
Sine wave is all ok.
With Square wave I am getting some serious overshooting (hope I picked the right term).
Made some screenshots for 100kHZ, 1MHz and 15MHz (doesn't look like square wave by any mean).

Is this behavior intended that way?

Regards
Martin
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #162 on: July 03, 2020, 08:39:34 pm »
Do you have the ground connection made? Such ringing on the analog inputs of a scope is often because there' isn't a good ground.  Try a walking stick ground connector on the scope probe.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

Offline ve2mrx

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #163 on: July 04, 2020, 03:20:43 am »
Hi Lysanthe,

Just checking, the probes are in x10 and are calibrated, right? :-)

Martin
 

Offline Lysanthe

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #164 on: July 04, 2020, 06:14:25 am »
Yes and in made the messaurements with 1x Probe since the should Work Till 30MHz
 

Online Fungus

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #165 on: July 04, 2020, 10:15:56 am »
Yes and in made the messaurements with 1x Probe since the should Work Till 30MHz

Yes, but square waves are made out of sine waves. What's the frequency of the highest sine wave in your signal? Is it more than 30MHz?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave#Fourier_analysis

 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #166 on: July 05, 2020, 05:40:36 pm »
Finally did some testing on the MSO5074 -> now a 5350

A precursor to my full review - coming soon  ;)

Frequency BW test

There have been various comments regarding the -3dB bandwidth limit for the MSO5000 - some forum members have stated that you can 'stretch it' to as high as 480Mhz  :-\

Well , I decided to make an accurate test with my device

Signal source was via a calibrated RF Sig Gen using a directly connected low loss 6GHz capable cable with inline 50 Ohm termination on the Rigol Channel 1 input.

The Rigol MSO5000 was set to 'full BW'

The Initial frequency and amplitude was set to be precisely 100Mhz at 1.00Vpp

Then I swept the frequency until I reached 707mVpp - giving me the -3dB point

The frequency where the -3dB point was reached was 415MHz

This figure is well below the 'claimed' 450+ MHz by others, but at least its a trusted figure for my device.

One important caveat for the above measurements and result ...

The testing was made with direct (in effect lossless at this frequency) cable connection.

If you are going to use your supplied PVP2350 probes - your mileage might vary - since the probes are rated at 350Mhz

Hope the above information is useful  ;)


Screen Cap 1

The initial input signal frequency and level


Screen Cap 2

The -3dB signal frequency point
 
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Offline Lysanthe

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #167 on: July 06, 2020, 08:20:15 am »
Do you have the ground connection made? Such ringing on the analog inputs of a scope is often because there' isn't a good ground.  Try a walking stick ground connector on the scope probe.
For some reasons I thought that the grounds are internally connected and therefore it doesn't matter whether it's connected or not.
Boy, was I wrong;) Though the are of course internally connected, I had to connect GND to get a way better signal.
Still some overshooting, but not as bad as previously posted.

Thx for your support!
 
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Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #168 on: July 11, 2020, 03:30:23 pm »
I try my MSO5074 "upgraded" scope on direct cable (without probe).

-3dB bandwidth is 630 MHz.
-6dB bandwidth is 700 MHz.

 

Offline sb42

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #169 on: July 11, 2020, 08:19:36 pm »
I try my MSO5074 "upgraded" scope on direct cable (without probe).

-3dB bandwidth is 630 MHz.
-6dB bandwidth is 700 MHz.

Interesting. Do you mean hardware modifications? And are you going to post an updated frequency-response graph? :)
 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #170 on: July 11, 2020, 08:48:54 pm »
Do you mean hardware modifications? And are you going to post an updated frequency-response graph? :)
I did not make any hardware modifications. May be slightly later)

P.S. Used cable has 50 Ohm impedance and terminated close to oscilloscope BNC. Signal source alsо have 50 Ohm output impedance. Maybe this is important?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 08:56:00 pm by neon416 »
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #171 on: July 11, 2020, 11:26:25 pm »
Interesting results


Made me revisit - to see if there is some consistency with these results and what I measured before

Here is what I observed as some major differences, and before any judgement can be made - as I really don't know what the proper convention is and if these observations have any relevance, can someone with experience in -3db BW measurements PLEASE chime-in

My original measurements were at 1Vrms at 100MHz as the 'base' before testing for the -3dB point

Repeating the same type of measurement as neon416 - notable difference was using CH4 (just in case there is some HW differences between CH1) and HIGHER base frequency as well as LOWER input voltage

The 2nd round measurements I obtained were much better

Using CH4, 300MHz at 1Vrms, the -3dB point was reached at 498MHz - a significant improvement from the 415MHz when using 100MHz as base frequency.

See MSO5074 now 5354 with 300MHz 1Vrms input on CH4.png

and

MSO5074 now 5354 with 598MHz 708mVrms -3db point  on CH4.png


Also using a smaller input voltage

300MHz at 100 mVrms , the -3dB point was reached at 605MHz - again an improvement

see MSO5074 now 5354 with 300MHz 100mVrms input on CH4.png

and

MSO5074 now 5354 with 605MHz 71mVrms -3db point  on CH4.png



So what does all this mean?

1. If we use a higher 'base' frequency to do the -3dB test - we get better results
2. If we use a lower input voltage for the -3dB test - we get better results

Can someone please chime-in to explain the above observations, and perhaps define - if there is a detention - as to how to perform the -3dB bandwidth test - so that we can get some meaningful results that can be used as a good comparison to other scope measurements.

Thanks to neon416 for your input, at least we can now try to figure out the observations.

I also tried to reproduce similar input levels as neon416 and obtained similar results  :-\

see

MSO5074 now 5354 with 300MHz 167mVrms input on CH4.png
MSO5074 now 5354 with 611MHz 118mVrms -3db point  on CH4.png








 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #172 on: July 12, 2020, 12:34:48 am »
Interesting results
What type of signal generator you are use? I discouraged about some jitter or visual "aliases" on you pictures. Is it caused by signal quality or scope specific?

On over hand, rise time measurement of scope gives about 700ps. This provide 0.35/0.7 = 500 MHz bandwidth using common formula. I think it's more correct result.
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #173 on: July 12, 2020, 01:12:00 am »
Interesting results
What type of signal generator you are use? I discouraged about some jitter or visual "aliases" on you pictures. Is it caused by signal quality or scope specific?

On over hand, rise time measurement of scope gives about 700ps. This provide 0.35/0.7 = 500 MHz bandwidth using common formula. I think it's more correct result.

Rigol DSG815

I did not tune trigger - I am happy with the signal - my cable is not brilliant - but should handle the Freq (will check)

But despite the above - the -3dB readings still should be ok

Yes the 'rise time' measurement is a good confirmation - BUT, it still would be nice to fully understand why the -3dB points vary so much depending of base frequency (your refrence point Frequency) and to a smaller extend  - the input voltage level  :-\
 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #174 on: July 12, 2020, 05:50:06 am »
BUT, it still would be nice to fully understand why the -3dB points vary so much depending of base frequency (your refrence point Frequency) and to a smaller extend  - the input voltage level  :-\
Nothing strange)

Wavelength of you signal is comparable with cable length when you looking for hundred of megahertz. So this cable can significantly disturb frequency (and pulse) response if not fully terminated. But this oscilloscope have not dedicated 50 Ohm input mode so if you also terminate you cable near oscilloscope input by yourself you get not properly termination because of oscilloscope input capacitance (I measure it about 17pF).
You can also commit this by changing cable length or terminator resistance selection)

At second, this oscilloscope frontend gain may vary depending of gain range if far from characterized by factory (350 MHz) frequency. It's looks ugly, but every thing has its price))
 


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