Author Topic: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions  (Read 23506 times)

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Offline WinnieThePooh

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REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« on: June 17, 2019, 10:14:18 am »
Hello community!

In this post I’d like to tell about my impression and testing results of Rigol MSO5074 oscilloscope.

Testing methods are based on Altemir’s post REVIEW - Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc.... Some results to compare with were also taken from his post.
After weekly testing I’ve written a little report for Rigol’s local distributor on Russian language. Some most significant bugs are listed below with a little description.
Please let me know if you found other problems.


Known Firmware Bugs/Issues
(red indicates latest FW version available, italic indicates requires for testing - please, inform me about results)


1. Low contrast, bad viewing angles of screen. It’s also not very bright. Seems to be Rigol scope’s family bug
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

2. Backlight of buttons is not bright enough (especially on 1’st channel button)
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

3. Colors on screenshots are very, very different from what you see on screen
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

4. Windows on screen (DVM and Counter for example) are all different in size and don’t stick to each other, so it’s difficult to arrange them.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

5. Selected trigger mode has a very little indicator; single mode doesn’t indicate at all. Selected mode isn’t shown in trigger menu.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

6. In Dots mode you don’t see dots; even at small time base (2 ns) dots are connected with lines.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

7. In High Res mode signal is not less noisy then in usual Sample mode, although vertical resolution is higher
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

8. New measurement is added on the left and moves all other measurements to the right.  It would be more convenient if it adds on the left of others
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

9. You can select a separate measurement but you can only DELETE it and can’t change nothing else (source, measurement type). Measurement selection is almost invisible.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

10. There is no user-defined probe ratio – only pre-defined values. Thus it’s difficult to measure current on sense resistor.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

11. Strange behavior. Advertisement says it has more than 500 000 wfrm/s update rate. That’s true, but ONLY in single ch., 10ns time base mode (with AUTO memory mode).  Update rate dependence on time base and active channels’ number  looks very strange – for example, with 1 active channel and 20 ns time base you have 12 000 wfrm/s, but with 2 active channels and 20 ns time base you have 310 000 wfrm/s. (see update rate testing results below)
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]


12. With time base more than 20 ms, update rate is higher with 200 MPoints memory selected then with 1 kPoints. (see update rate testing results below)
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

13. In AUTO memory mode scope don’t use more than 25 MPoints, although available memory is 200 MPoints.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

14. The way the scope collect data looks strange: packets of samples, separated by a long pause. Pauses between packets take up to 87% of all blind time. For comparison, Rigol MSO4000 collects data in series, sample by sample, without any packets.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]
Rigol MSO5000

Rigol MSO4000


15. No internal 50 Ohm termination, though there is an inactive setting in channel menu.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

16. Offset about 250 uV with external 50 termination connected. Without termination (open input) – just 50 uV
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

17. Scope saves waveform only in *.bin or *.csv, but loads just *.wfm – you can’t load saved waveforms.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

18a. No frequency and magnitude axes in FFT mode
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

18b. FFT does not have MAX and Average
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

18c. FFT size is not shown (and could not been set)
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

18d. Lack of Kaiser-Bessel Derived Window and Dolph-Chebychev Window, all these 2 windows with variable alpha.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

19. Scope has Eye Analysis and Jitter functions in Measure menu, but they are not mentioned in manual and seem non-working
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

20. Color Grade function is VERY dependent on waveform’s Intensity setting (display>intensity). At maximum intensity you’ll see all white waveform, at minimum – all black, actually without any color difference.  This feature is not mentioned in manual.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

21. Waveform Freeze function seems not working, and I don’t know what it should do.
It works: If you manually stop the acquisition, pressing "Stop", "Waveform freeze" keeps the display "as is" showing multiple waveforms overlaid (Just as if you would take a photo from an analogue scope). If you disable the option, manually pressing "Stop" just shows the trace from the last real-time acquisition. thx mimi
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

22. SCPI command ':LA:TCALibrate' doesn't do anything. This is something that should be a menu option on the scope, so maybe its not been implemented yet.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

Code: [Select]
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000
:LA:TCAL 0.000000100
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000

:channel1:tcal 0.000000100 for example, works OK


23. Lack of interpolation mode selection (line or sinc)
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

24. The trigger delay only works up to 535..537ms (the limit appears to have some sort of hysteresis) for fast sweep rates (<=200us/div, in single channel mode). For faster sweep rates it wraps around, e.g. 600ms equals sone 40ms delay)
Same for FW v00.01.01.04.04 and v00.01.01.04.08
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]



Testing results
1. System info



2. Acquisition - all with open input, 1ms time base
2.1 Normal mode

2.2 HighRes mode. Signal isn't less noisy then in Normal mode (bug #7).

2.3 Average mode, 256 averages


3. Waveform update rate
3.1 Sample rates

3.2 Waveform update rate. Input signal - sin 10 MHz 1 Vp-p


MSO 4000 results:

3.3 Waveform update rate. Input signal - sin 1 MHz 1 Vp-p


MSO 4000 results:

Tests 3.2 and 3.3 is a good illustration of bug #11. Scope has maximum update only in certain time base (10ns in 1ch mode, 20ns in half ch mode, 50ns in all ch mode). MSO4000 results is much linear and smooth, without unexpected peaks.

3.4 Blind time

3.5 As mentioned in bug #14, scope has strange acquisition mode - packets of samples, separated by a long pause. Duration of each phase of acquisition cycle was measured at different time base.


4. Frequency response
4.1 With and without correction of measuring path. Average value

4.2 With correction. For each channel separately

4.3 Comparison with other scopes

4.4 -3dB frequency in HighRes mode



edit 1. Added bug#22, thanks to thm_w
edit 2. Added bug#18b, #18c, #18d, #23, #24, thanks to alexvg, mim
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 05:56:50 pm by WinnieThePooh »
 
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Offline WinnieThePooh

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2019, 11:02:36 am »
All tests results and report (only in Russian, sorry)
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2019, 09:18:13 pm »
Very comprehensive report!

I noticed the same odd thing with the packets of samples. If you turn on zone triggering, I saw it change to more consistent sampling and the dead time was reduced (more spread out I guess), seemingly regardless of whether it was hitting the signal. But maybe there was some other reason for it, related to my triggering.
Now I'm checking wfm/s and zone triggering doesn't seem to effect that much (reduces it about 10%). No difference between 1 zone or 2 zones.

There are definitely oddities to how this scope works, whether due to the ASIC and its functionality or software bugs, not sure.


Quote
19. Scope has Eye Analysis and Jitter functions in Measure menu, but they are not mentioned in manual and seem non-working

Yes someone here even reported it to Rigol tech support, that their non-paid for feature is not working  ;D
edit: looks like you did the same thing, hopefully they don't mind. But thanks for passing all this on.

Quote
15. No internal 50 Ohm termination, though there is an inactive setting in channel menu.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

This is normal, sort of a placeholder and to tell you the input impedance. In the case of DS2000->DS2000A they added a 50 ohm option to later hardware, they may or may not do this with the MSO5000. Usually its a good way to differentiate the low/high end models. A generic BNC pass through is only ~$6.

Quote
20. Color Grade function is VERY dependent on waveform’s Intensity setting (display>intensity). At maximum intensity you’ll see all white waveform, at minimum – all black, actually without any color difference.  This feature is not mentioned in manual.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

I think you should just set it to 50% for color grading (or set auto to that). But it would be nice if changing this did something like change the color pattern or similar.

Bug 22.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04]
SCPI command ':LA:TCALibrate' doesn't do anything. This is something that should be a menu option on the scope, so maybe its not been implemented yet.

Code: [Select]
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000
:LA:TCAL 0.000000100
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000

:channel1:tcal 0.000000100 for example, works OK
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 10:22:56 pm by thm_w »
 
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Offline WinnieThePooh

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2019, 07:53:22 am »
I noticed the same odd thing with the packets of samples. If you turn on zone triggering, I saw it change to more consistent sampling and the dead time was reduced (more spread out I guess), seemingly regardless of whether it was hitting the signal. But maybe there was some other reason for it, related to my triggering.
Now I'm checking wfm/s and zone triggering doesn't seem to effect that much (reduces it about 10%). No difference between 1 zone or 2 zones.

Just checked zone triggering, and noticed another couple of odd things.

1 When zone triggering is active, there is no 500 000 wfms/s peak. Just 90 000 wfms/s - looks much more linear

2 If you create a zone that can't be intersected by signal, trig out will still be active and generate trig signal (see pictures). And - magic - trig out shows update rate much higher than in normal mode without any zone triggering. More than that, there is no any packets in this case. (Test mode: input signal - sin 10MHz 1Vp-p, channel 1, 20ns time base. 12 735 wfm/s without zone triggering, 11 400 wfm/s with settings from picture "Zone0", 63 800 wfm/s with settings from picture "Zone1". Last picture - trig out signal for "Zone1" case. )
 
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Offline WinnieThePooh

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2019, 08:21:58 am »
Quote
20. Color Grade function is VERY dependent on waveform’s Intensity setting (display>intensity). At maximum intensity you’ll see all white waveform, at minimum – all black, actually without any color difference.  This feature is not mentioned in manual.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

I think you should just set it to 50% for color grading (or set auto to that). But it would be nice if changing this did something like change the color pattern or similar.

Yes, works great with 50% intensity. But when intensity is set to 100% and you turn on color grading, you just don't understand what is going on. Influence of intense on color grading isn't mentioned in manual. Moreover, intensity setting isn't available in color grading mode.

Bug 22.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04]
SCPI command ':LA:TCALibrate' doesn't do anything. This is something that should be a menu option on the scope, so maybe its not been implemented yet.

Code: [Select]
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000
:LA:TCAL 0.000000100
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000

:channel1:tcal 0.000000100 for example, works OK

Thanks, added in bug list
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2019, 03:25:29 pm »
Hi,


Maybe a bug:

Want to look about new Firmware, so I connected the MSO to LAN, pressing "Online Upgrade".
After take the confirmation in the popup box, it freezes.
Switch off/on, it still freezes.
Switch off, disconnect the lan, switch on, everything is OK.
Thought, this behaviour comes with the hack, so I reinstalled the former FW.
Same as above, it freezes when You will do the online upgrade thing.

Martin

Offline tv84

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2019, 04:05:03 pm »
Switch off/on, it still freezes.
Switch off, disconnect the lan, switch on, everything is OK.

Very strange!!  :o

I don't think mine does that...
 

Offline tv84

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2019, 04:14:37 pm »
Bug 22.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04]
SCPI command ':LA:TCALibrate' doesn't do anything. This is something that should be a menu option on the scope, so maybe its not been implemented yet.

As you can see in the list of SCPI commands that I posted, this command has function_ID 11031 assigned to it so I think it's implemented.
Could be a bug but maybe you're not supposed to trigger that without some vendor validation... just guessing.
 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2019, 04:43:57 pm »
Quote
I don't think mine does that...

A few weeks ago, mine doesn´t do that too - After a while the message appears, there is no new firmware avaible.
Maybe the server is down and this is a situation which can trigger this behaviour, I don´t know.
Nervertheless I´ve informed rigol.
Also about the "bug", that the power-state is always the same.
You could choose between "Default" and "Last", but it´s always "Last" after turning on....

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2019, 07:34:11 pm »
Quote
Nervertheless I´ve informed rigol.

It´s known (since testing my scope after modification) and has been forwarded.


Offline alexvg

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2019, 09:03:06 pm »
Thanks to your report and measurements

I add some...
18b. FFT does not have MAX and Average
18c. FFT size is not shown (and could not been set)
18d. Lack of Kaiser-Bessel Derived Window and Dolph-Chebychev Window, all these 2 windows with variable alpha.
I don't try to save a FFT trace, I don't know if this feature exists.
23. Lack of interpolation mode selection (line or sinc)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 09:39:22 pm by alexvg »
 
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Offline hhappy1

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 06:26:35 am »
Thanks to your report and measurements2. ^^

I think number 14 is very important.

Because of black time, The mso5000 cannot be measured.

Set time is 2us and play a waveform with a glitch, Failed to measure.

Measurements are made for other products of 3,600wf/s.



Modify the trigger to a slope or pulse, and 2ch & 3ch on-off.  You can see it if you do it.

If you're doing very well......
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 11:07:49 am by hhappy1 »
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2019, 08:12:10 am »
Another suspected bug for you chaps

When testing power mains 240Vac noise with the power analysis feature using a fully active Micsig DP20003 probe on channel 1 and a Pico TA189 current probe on channel 3 the scope would lock up and a hard reset required.

Performed numerous tests over a three hour period with the scope locking up around 50% of the time, tried the probes on adjacent channels (1+2 etc) also (3+4) same result, no spurious readings or spikes.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 12:25:42 pm by Sighound36 »
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Offline KC0PPH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2019, 02:44:06 pm »
Thanks for Posting this information.
 

Offline hhappy1

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2019, 12:16:17 am »
We have a new firmware.

I heard that the wf/s has been improved.

Let's compare who's different.  ^^

 

Offline mimi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2019, 01:24:13 pm »
Hello!

I checked the update rates for FW v00.01.01.04.08 and they are completely unchanged. The spec'd 500k wfm/s are only available with a single channel at 10ns/div. Might be a bug in their ASIC (which would be not so cool).
The only improvement I saw is that "color grading" now disables the intensity option (which makes sense). Also with 00.01.01.04.04 the intensity settings would be randomly greyed out even with "color grading" off. That has been apparently fixed. That's a fix for Bug 20 in WtP's list.

iMO 21) is not a bug. If you manually stop the acquisition, pressing "Stop", "Waveform freeze" keeps the display "as is" showing multiple waveforms overlaid (Just as if you would take a photo from an analogue scope). If you disable the option, manually pressing "Stop" just shows the trace from the last real-time acquisition. In fact when I got the sope this option was on, and I was quite irritated that when pressing "Stop" it would not show a clear trace.

I have another Bug for the list:

The trigger delay only works up to 535..537ms (the limit appears to have some sort of hysteresis) for fast sweep rates (<=200us/div, in single channel mode). For faster sweep rates it wraps around, e.g. 600ms equals sone 40ms delay)
Same for FW v00.01.01.04.04 and v00.01.01.04.08








« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 01:25:58 pm by mimi »
 
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Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2019, 06:19:39 pm »
When using the cursors try using measurement mode, mine just doesn't work, neither does it when in the jitter measurement mode either.

All other cursor functions are fine
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Offline mimi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2019, 07:05:11 pm »
When using the cursors try using measurement mode, mine just doesn't work, neither does it when in the jitter measurement mode either.
...
Works here (after RTFM :D). Allows to enable or disable "indicators" for auto measurements.

Best regards
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 07:20:45 pm by mimi »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2019, 07:41:13 pm »
I checked the update rates for FW v00.01.01.04.08 and they are completely unchanged. The spec'd 500k wfm/s are only available with a single channel at 10ns/div. Might be a bug in their ASIC (which would be not so cool).
Hi,

See also here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2047141/#msg2047141

And: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2058052/#msg2058052

Where I wondered about this:

Quote
Interesting:
The measurements were taken with a 25Mhz Sine at 5ns/div.
But if you zoom out to 20ns/div AND with all channels on, the waveform rate increases to appx 200000...hm.

Martin

Offline mimi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2019, 09:20:00 pm »
Hi,

I cannot confirm the 500k wfm/s for 5ns/div here.
Depth fixed at 1k pts:
  5ns/div, 1ch (8G/s,1k) 102k wfms/s
10ns/div, 1ch (8G/s,1k) 502k wfms/s
Though 5ns/div and 10ns/div have the same acquisition duration of 125ns...
One observation: If you use 10ns/div and feed a 100kHz signal you apparently not loose a single trace (i.e. you get a stable 100.000 kwfms/s). It starts skipping traces at about 200kHz.





« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 07:22:12 am by mimi »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2019, 09:50:48 pm »
Quote
I cannot confirm the 500k wfm/s for 5ns/div here.

If desired, I will repeat the measure..

Offline mimi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2019, 07:18:36 am »
Quote
I cannot confirm the 500k wfm/s for 5ns/div here.

If desired, I will repeat the measure..
Not urgent, we cannot do much against the weird behavior anyway. Rigol is probably well aware of the issue and tries to address it.
I am wondering if the MSO7000 behaves similarily ?






 

Offline tinhead

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2019, 09:09:29 am »
I checked the update rates for FW v00.01.01.04.08 and they are completely unchanged. The spec'd 500k wfm/s are only available with a single channel at 10ns/div. Might be a bug in their ASIC (which would be not so cool).

it's not a bug, it is what the Hardware can do. When you check MSO5000 Datasheet, Page 8 "500,000 wfms/s Capture Rate", you can clearly see Rigol Shows screenshots with 10ns/div and 1k mem Depth as "reference Picture" for 500000 wfms/s". There is no single statement like "500000 wfms everywhere", so it is enought to get that rate at least once - as they did.
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Offline AngusBeef

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2019, 01:54:45 am »
I seem to have an issue with overshooting in channel 1 despite upgrading to the 01.01.04.08 firmware on gitlab...I thought 1.0.04.08 was supposed to fix it? I saw no change from 01.01.04.04 to current.

https://gitlab.com/riglol/rigolee/tree/MSO5000/GEL

 

Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2019, 02:47:44 am »
This is a much better topic to post this than the hacking thread.

While some users reported 04.08 correct their overshoot/undershoot problems, the official readme in 04.08 does not specifically state this particular fix.

I presume you adjusted your probes with the reference signal, and did a self-cal after the upgrade?  As the upgrade alone will not fix the problem.

This issue seem to be hardware related, as it only affects certain users.  I don't have this problem even with 04.04 on all four channels, so I cannot test whether 04.08 makes a difference.

The word is Rigol is aware of this issues a few months back, and they are working on a firmware fix for it.  The question is whether it is fully implemented in 04.08, or you have to wait for a future release.  If it persists, you may want to let Rigol know so they can help you to fix it.
 
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Offline AngusBeef

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2019, 03:18:46 am »
This is a much better topic to post this than the hacking thread.

While some users reported 04.08 correct their overshoot/undershoot problems, the official readme in 04.08 does not specifically state this particular fix.

I presume you adjusted your probes with the reference signal, and did a self-cal after the upgrade?  As the upgrade alone will not fix the problem.

This issue seem to be hardware related, as it only affects certain users.  I don't have this problem even with 04.04 on all four channels, so I cannot test whether 04.08 makes a difference.

The word is Rigol is aware of this issues a few months back, and they are working on a firmware fix for it.  The question is whether it is fully implemented in 04.08, or you have to wait for a future release.  If it persists, you may want to let Rigol know so they can help you to fix it.

Thanks - removed from the other post - I've only got it on one channel, the other 3 look a hair undercompensated when it's as good as I can get it, so my fear is that it's a hardware issue...it's just disappointing that the new toy isn't perfect - but it's a Rigol so it happens. I'll get ahold of them and see what I can do. Thanks!
 

Offline AngusBeef

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2019, 08:50:36 am »
Used the lfcal.hex from @mabl, backed up both the lfcal.hex from /default and /data then overwrote both of them and my issue with overcompensation went away.  :-+

Self-cal completed, I can get still get all 4 probes compensated correctly - no ringing, no overshooting, etc.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 08:52:39 am by AngusBeef »
 
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Offline matlipinski

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2019, 12:35:26 pm »
Hi.

I am writing once again (but in this thread this time).

I have bought MSO5074 (hw. version 1.00) some time ago, and from the beginning I have overshoot undershoot issues, as well as square signal from arbitral generator has also 20% over and undershoot. After applying newest firmware  01.01.04.08 and lfcal.hex from mable and running self calibration they are still there. After applying mable's lfcal.hex they vanished from 1st channel, almost vanished from second channel, but they are still on 3rd 4th channel. Do You think i should send it to Rigol? What can I do else? Is it normal?

Please look at the screenshots.

There is also screen shot from Rigol 1054Z - square signal from 1KHz test signal of MSO5074 seems to be OK on 1054Z. Under/oveshoot is also visible on 1054Z.
 

Offline TK

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2019, 12:41:23 pm »
If you have 01.01.04.08 you should not apply other ifcal.hex file.  I think you have a faulty scope.  When was it purchased?  Have you contacted Rigol EU to ask if your unit has the latest HW fixes (LCD, fan noise)?
 

Offline matlipinski

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2019, 01:19:07 pm »
OK I will revert lfcal.hex to original state and test it again.
Yes I have asked Rigol, if I have all fixes applied, they confirmed.
I have asked Rigol if this over/usndeshoot is normal, they said no, and sent me beta firmware 03.01.04.04. On 03.01.04.04 it was like on 01.01.04.08.
After sending them screenshots from 03.01.04.04 they said that this time it is OK.
I think it is not, it is my third oscilloscope, I had never such issues before.
I couldn't test arbitral generator, I had no licence earlier.
 

Offline matlipinski

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2019, 09:51:50 pm »
I have posted in "New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope" and "REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions" threads.

Could You please show me Your 1KHz signal from MSO5000 as well as 1 or 10KHz signal from arb. signal gen. on Your MSO5000?

I will ask Rigol for help.

After self cal. on factory lfcal.hex it looks like this:
 

Offline TK

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2019, 10:33:42 pm »
CH1 and CH3
[attach=2]

1KHz square wave from Wavegen, direct COAX cable with 50ohm passthrough, 1X
[attach=1]
 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2019, 09:24:05 pm »
Got two "new" bugs/missing features:

Power on state:
Choosable are "Last" or "Default" - None of them works, in every case after power on my scope has the optinon menu open.

Cursors :

The horizontal and vertical cursor-lines are always together dispaying, you can´t choose between only vertical, only horizontal or both.


Offline thm_w

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2019, 11:19:36 pm »
Got two "new" bugs/missing features:

Power on state:
Choosable are "Last" or "Default" - None of them works, in every case after power on my scope has the option menu open.

The "Last" or "default" is more to save all of the configuration values: time base, probe attenuation, etc. I wouldn't expect it to save the exact state of the UI (although it could be nice if it did).

Seems like its storing a reasonable amount of data:
Quote
Syntax :SYSTem:SETup <setup_data>
contains 2506 bytes of effective data.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2019, 11:28:28 pm »
Quote
The "Last" or "default" is more to save all of the configuration values: time base, probe attenuation, etc. I wouldn't expect it to save the exact state of the UI (although it could be nice if it did).

Yes and no…

"Default" means to me, that the scope starts "like it was" on delivery state.
"Last" means to me that it will start with the last configurations I´ve taken before shut-down.

Seems logical....only to me ?

Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2019, 09:33:19 am »
No. 17 is fine. You have to switch from 'screen' to 'memory'. Then you can save wfm. A bit strange, though, that by default, it saves only the screen.

FW FW v00.01.01.04.08


No. 1 is fine with HW version 1.01


One more thing: The protocol analyzer often just stops working. I think it has to do do with a faulty threshold. I've once also seen that it 'sees' some data, although the threshold was way beyond the waveform. And putting it to the right place made the decoding disappear. Not reproducible though.

 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2019, 11:42:01 am »
Quote
18a. No frequency and magnitude axes in FFT mode
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

18b. FFT does not have MAX and Average
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

18c. FFT size is not shown (and could not been set)
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

To 18b, it got peakhold, what MAX concerns.
To 18c, showing memorysize is indeed missing, sample-size is displayed instead.


Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2019, 09:44:14 pm »
Cursors :

The horizontal and vertical cursor-lines are always together dispaying, you can´t choose between only vertical, only horizontal or both.

Forgot to post the answer from rigol ( always rigol support in EU meant) :

For them it´s not a bug or missing feature, they suggest me to put the vertical or horizontal lines "away" when vertical or horizontal cursor value only are interesting... ;)

Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2019, 11:11:16 pm »
One more thing about protocol analysis:

Apparently, the decoder only works if the context it needs to decode, i.e. a CAN frame, is visible on the screen. It seems to 'see' just what we see on the screen. Fair enough. BUT: If I have, say, a very long CAN frame, then I have to squeeze it so much that I cannot distinguish the data bits any more. And also cannot read what's the data any more. Of course, then there is still the table view. But it would be nice if I could zoom into the frame and actually see the data. This is not possible because as soon as I zoom in, it loses the context.

Am I missing something? Can I somehow "freeze" the decoding, so that it stays visible, keeps track on the waveform, but does not try to re-decode anymore? This would solve this issue.
 

Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2019, 07:55:45 am »
Concerning my post above about protocol analyzer:

Of course I don't mean real-time encoding while a signal is being repeatedly captured, but inspecting a previously captured signal. Actually, I don't see any reason why the decoder should try to re-analyze the waveform every time I move or zoom it. Shouldn't it just decode (to get good speeds just the visible section) when it actually captures a signal, and as soon as the signal is stable, start a complete decoding of the whole memory content. And then just show that decoding, which is moved and zoomed simultaneously with the waveform? This would be simple, and one could zoom in into every detail.

One more thing: If I save a waveform (memory content, not screen) after having captured many bursts of communication into segmented memory ('recording'), I would assume the scope to store all these captures (the memory content, that is). Instead, only the actually seen segment is stored.
 

Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2019, 10:49:03 pm »
I just found that if you enable the zoom function, you actually can zoom into details. As long as the context is visible on the "original" waveform, you can see the decoded data also in the zoom window. I though I have once seen this not working. But apparently it works.
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2019, 11:47:20 pm »
One more thing: If I save a waveform (memory content, not screen) after having captured many bursts of communication into segmented memory ('recording'), I would assume the scope to store all these captures (the memory content, that is). Instead, only the actually seen segment is stored.

May be possible to do it in a script:

Code: [Select]
save:format csv
save:csv:length maximum

for x in range(5):
   :record:current x
   :save:csv D:\x.csv

Depending on if the "save" functionality works the same in record mode as it does in other modes.
 

Offline matlipinski

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2019, 10:17:21 am »
For all whose MSO5000 has over/undershoot. I have bought MSO5074, and from the beginning i had over/undershoot problem. I contacted Rigol support. They sent me all possible firmware versions and told me: make self calibration procedure for each firmware version we have sent to you. But nothing changed.

I decided to send my MSO to them. They have fixed over/undershoot problem, and calibrated the scope. They have also applied newest hardware fixes (also to built in signal generator).
They also changed HW version number to 1.01. I had 1.00 earlier.

Now everything is fine.

Over/undershoots looked like attached bellow.
 

Offline irw

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2019, 12:39:48 pm »
Hi all,

How is the current status of the firmware? Still too buggy?

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 01:03:16 pm by irw »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2019, 06:36:03 pm »
Hi,

It wasn´t to buggy even from the beginning, depending on what things you work on, you wouldn´t recognize them.

Offline irw

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2019, 06:46:34 pm »
My main concern is the vertical accuracy, as I read that it was about 4mV/div... at least the "True" value... As I need to measure low currents, I wonder how low can I get, if the accuracy is that "high"...
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2019, 09:41:06 pm »
Hi,

This is a point which doesn´t have much to do with bugs, it´s a hardware thing.
When i remember it right, in the first FW update a 500µV Resolution was implemented.
"Of course" bandwith-limited and not really a true one.

Quote
As I need to measure low currents

Generally, scopes aren´t precisely as dedicated volt-/amperemeters.
If you need to measure dc-currents, you should do it better with an suitable amperemeter.
For example, we must record loadsteps and static values of our converters/inverters.
First one we do of course with a scope, but last we do with a high precision voltage/current/power device.
Because everyone knows that the vertical accuracy of a scope couldn´t reach the precision of a dedicated measure device.
For recording loadsteps the accuracy ist not the most important thing.
Finally we talk about a scope for 1000 bucks….
 
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Offline matlipinski

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2019, 10:22:33 pm »
Hi all,

How is the current status of the firmware? Still too buggy?

Thanks

I think FW 01.01.04.08 and HV 1.01 is usable, there is still a lot to do, but if are aware of limitations of the device, you are able generally measure what you want to.  :-+
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2019, 10:32:36 pm »
Nothing else I said before.. ;)

And what the "limitations" concerns, we got two scopes for 26000 bucks together in october.
Generally, they couldn´t do "more" as a scope for 1000....they could do some things better, but more...no.


Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2019, 09:44:42 am »
One more quite significant one, I guess:

While in the decoding menu, the available signals are named correctly (MOSI, MISO,..), in both the search and trigger menus they are names "i2c-ish" (SDA, SCL). I think, this typo has been mentioned before somewhere. But actually, it doesn't appear to be just a typo. SPI search and trigger do not work in any way. Decoding works fine.

FW 01.01.04.08

Hope this will be fixed in the release that appears to be about to come.
 

Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2019, 09:46:52 am »
oops... As you might guess "decoding menu" here should be "SPI decoding menu"
 

Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2019, 01:14:41 pm »
I just found another big one, I guess. Saving waveforms doesn't seem to work at all. When I save a waveform showing nice 3.3V SPI as .wfm, then press autoset w/o any signals on the probes, then load the  same waveform again, strange things happen. Once I just got a flatline, and one I got a part of the waveform, but with signal levels 0V-330mV instead of 0V-3.3V (probes were 1:1).
 

Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2019, 10:35:32 pm »
Can anyone confirm that last one? When I store large wavefiles, (250MB) as .wfm, and then reload these, I constantly get very strange things back. As said before, parts of the waveform, but with amplitude wrong by a factor of 10 (happened once), and very often a waveform of 10 us length (original was some 100ms), an amplitude of some mV, and a frequency of exactly 4GHz (which means that it apparently assumes that the sample rate was 8GSa/s, and the samples are somehow alternated).

This one is quite a bummer...

Then, there is a minor one. Playing around with the segmented memory ("record"), I found that when displaying a data record, the delta-T reading in the record window is updated to the correct value only after modifying the x-scale.

Then, the decoding is still a bit unstable. But I found that when it shows most of the data correctly, but just some incorrectly, it helps to just slightly move the threshold(s) a bit. They were perfectly in the middle, and the wrongly decoded data did not have any glitches. But after just "touching" the threshold a little bit, the data showed up perfectly.

BTW: Is this the right place to place these things? I mean to remember someone stating that Rigol is reading this or someone is collecting this stuff for them...?

Apart from some minor things and the real bummer addressed here, the scope works very well in my opinion.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2019, 10:53:21 pm »
Hi,

Quote
BTW: Is this the right place to place these things? I mean to remember someone stating that Rigol is reading this or someone is collecting this stuff for them...?

Boris (from Rigol EU) and I have a "deal" :

Waiting for the next update and then he will comment ( I post) the points mentioned in Post#1 of this thread.
He confirms some of then as "real bugs" they´d take notice about.
Will mean, this thread is known by rigol.


Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2019, 12:15:51 am »
Great!

There is one more thing that puzzles me. Maybe someone can explain it. Not a bug, actually the opposite of a bug... somehow...

When working with the recording function, it appears that the scope does not have 200MSa of memory, but (a bit less than) 1GSa. For example, if I record with 200MSa, I get a maximum of four frames. And if I decrease the sampling depth, it always sums up to some 900 MSa. Only with very small frames, the number of total memory decreases. It really looks like all of these frames have the same granularity as if recorded as a single shot.

Do I oversee something here?
 

Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2019, 06:59:31 am »
Ok, I think I've found why this is possible. It appears that when recording, not only the sample memory is used. I hooked up a 15MHz square and recorded as fast as it could. This resulted in a rate of about 15'000 recordings per second (if I believe the delta-T shown in the window). So, it appears to not segment the actual sample memory, but just keep moving the samples into "normal" memory.

Fair enough.
 
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Offline rowifi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2019, 07:17:14 pm »
Well, I had a similar bug when I evaluated a 7000 scope. Memory saves and recalls were totally buggy and random. Maybe the usb stick compatibility, but it was one reason to reject the scope (among other reasons ).
Looks like the 5000 is still not suitable as a professional tool. I can't have flakey data decodes.
Still, I rejected a R & S due to a few of its bugs. What's the matter with these manufacturers. . We're at a race to the bottom in terms of quality just to get to market first.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 07:21:46 pm by rowifi »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2019, 10:18:09 pm »
Today, I´ve noticed some "issues":

- Under circumstances (which are not clear to define) the acquisition field is greyed out, you can´t do any changes - Until you press the "Auto" button, after the automatic setup, the field is active again.
  Sometimes it´s only the acquisition mode, sometimes acquisition and memory depth ( you can choose between the values but it will always stay the same).
  Reading the manual, there are no situations described which can cause these effects, so I think it´s a bug.

- Trigger: The markers for trigger level/time are always in the colour of the first channel (yellow), it´s sometimes irritating (I know it from other scopes, if you trigger on e.g. ch2, the markers changes their colours to the colour of the selected channel.)

- Working with AC coupling: When I short the probe, there´s a offset on the channel - Disconneting the probe, offset disappears…

Martin
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 07:43:43 am by Martin72 »
 
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Offline Alfons

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2019, 11:03:06 am »

Still, I rejected a R & S due to a few of its bugs. What's the matter with these manufacturers. . We're at a race to the bottom in terms of quality just to get to market first.

Only then buy a device until you are informed about the bugs. Do not rely on first reviews, but on user experience.
The cost pressure means that more and more manufacturers are packing their devices with software. Hardware is still expensive, so software is traded. And that often doesn't work.
Micsig, for example, shows with its tablet devices that there is another way. However, these devices are only equipped with the essentials and cannot do as much. But hardly any manufacturer dares to enter the market today with devices, which are not full packet with Software. It takes years for all bugs to be fixed. But not everyone like Keysight or Tektronix can keep a device on the market for so long. The Rigol will probably always remain a crutch, but you can still live with it at the price if you don't need everything. At R&S, you don't know where you're going. And the R&S devices would have the potential if the manufacturer is ready to invest. But I also don't understand how to deliver such a wonderful device with lots of errors.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 11:06:35 am by Alfons »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2020, 02:00:43 am »
Quote
- Working with AC coupling: When I short the probe, there´s a offset on the channel - Disconneting the probe, offset disappears…

"Today" tested again...it´s a generally thing when you are in the 1mV....5mV range ( or 10mV/50mV when using 10x Probe).
Measuring output ripple noise when the DUT´s claimed values lies in this range seems not possible with this scope - Makes me not happy...
Try it again with an extendend filter.


Offline sinpie

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2020, 09:20:15 am »
I report a new bug. It may or may not be a bug, but I think it has to be fixed.

Search -> Threshold shows an analog input voltage even 10x attenuation is set.
(e.g. by 10x atten., 10mV is an actually 100mV. but when I set the threshold voltage, it shows 10mV as the threshold voltage)

So it confuses me whenever I set the threshold voltage.

%% A threshold voltage on the Trigger menu shows the right voltage.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 09:22:35 am by sinpie »
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2020, 09:36:17 am »
Sinpie

Try using the precision button
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Offline sinpie

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2020, 11:22:19 am »
What I mean was, the vertical location on the picture should be 1.6V, not 160mV, at the 10x probe. (I already set the channel as 10x)

Anyway, where could I find the precision button on MSO5000 then I'll try it.

Thank you.
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2020, 01:49:14 pm »
Hi Sinpie

If you go into measure menu <> settings <> Mode then set to "precision" this engages all of the memory for a much tighter 'accurate' readings coupled with high resolution really helps.

Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline sinpie

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2020, 03:55:32 pm »
I think the precision option in measurement menu doesn't matter with the thresold setting of Search menu(button), but I will try.
Thank you.
 

Offline sinpie

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2020, 12:29:50 pm »
Hi Sinpie

If you go into measure menu <> settings <> Mode then set to "precision" this engages all of the memory for a much tighter 'accurate' readings coupled with high resolution really helps.

nothing has been changed after I set 'precision' on measurement.
Search->Threshold still shows 160mV for 1.6V on 10x probe and 10x attenuation setting on the scope.
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2020, 11:48:02 am »
Hi Sinpie

I had a quick check of one of our two 5000's over the weekend and it reads corrects with the Rigol 500Hhz probe

Will check the other later in the week for you.
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline sinpie

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2020, 03:00:29 pm »
Hi Sinpie

I had a quick check of one of our two 5000's over the weekend and it reads corrects with the Rigol 500Hhz probe

Will check the other later in the week for you.

Thank you.
Did you set attenuation to 10x in the CH menu when you press CH button? Voltage Reading in my mso5000 shows a correct value in all situations and conditions, but the reading is not correct only in Search>threshold.
Please let me know an CH attenuation setup and test procedure of your result.
I'm using 10x prove PVP2350 which is a default accessory.

Picture1. PVP2350 10x setting
Picture2. CH1 10x setting
Picture3. Test waveform (yellow, CH1)
              cursor(which shows 2.22V, correct voltage reading)
              measurement (Vmax1, shows 3V, correct voltage reading)
              Search>threshold(yellow dot line, which shows 234mV misreading)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 03:39:41 pm by sinpie »
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2020, 05:02:34 pm »
Sinepie

Have you tried a different robe?

Due to both scopes being fully opened we use the 500Mhz Rigol version which is 10:1 only and 13pf

https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-RP3500A-500MHz-Passive-Oscilloscope-Probe-p/rp3500a.htm

Will have a look for you
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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2020, 06:04:05 pm »
Hi Sinpie

I had a quick check of one of our two 5000's over the weekend and it reads corrects with the Rigol 500Hhz probe

Will check the other later in the week for you.

Thank you.
Did you set attenuation to 10x in the CH menu when you press CH button? Voltage Reading in my mso5000 shows a correct value in all situations and conditions, but the reading is not correct only in Search>threshold.
Please let me know an CH attenuation setup and test procedure of your result.
I'm using 10x prove PVP2350 which is a default accessory.

Picture1. PVP2350 10x setting
Picture2. CH1 10x setting
Picture3. Test waveform (yellow, CH1)
              cursor(which shows 2.22V, correct voltage reading)
              measurement (Vmax1, shows 3V, correct voltage reading)
              Search>threshold(yellow dot line, which shows 234mV misreading)
Question
With more waveform cycles on the display are the measurements then correct ?
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2020, 06:16:17 pm »
Sinpie

I have just the 7000  model, I have the same result as yourself, with the 10:1 probe the threshold reads just 10% of displayed value on a 10:1 probe. On a 1:1 probe the threshold is identical to the displayed probe value.

 
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Offline sinpie

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2020, 11:52:28 pm »
Hi Sinpie

I had a quick check of one of our two 5000's over the weekend and it reads corrects with the Rigol 500Hhz probe

Will check the other later in the week for you.

Thank you.
Did you set attenuation to 10x in the CH menu when you press CH button? Voltage Reading in my mso5000 shows a correct value in all situations and conditions, but the reading is not correct only in Search>threshold.
Please let me know an CH attenuation setup and test procedure of your result.
I'm using 10x prove PVP2350 which is a default accessory.

Picture1. PVP2350 10x setting
Picture2. CH1 10x setting
Picture3. Test waveform (yellow, CH1)
              cursor(which shows 2.22V, correct voltage reading)
              measurement (Vmax1, shows 3V, correct voltage reading)
              Search>threshold(yellow dot line, which shows 234mV misreading)
Question
With more waveform cycles on the display are the measurements then correct ?

This is not a measurement issue. Measurement is correct. But when I go to a certain menu (which is search>threshold setting), setting voltage shows wrong value which shows a 'before' attenuation voltage.
 

Offline sinpie

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #72 on: January 20, 2020, 11:58:14 pm »
Sinpie

I have just the 7000  model, I have the same result as yourself, with the 10:1 probe the threshold reads just 10% of displayed value on a 10:1 probe. On a 1:1 probe the threshold is identical to the displayed probe value.

Thank you for help me :)
Since I don't have a 500Mhz probe, I could not able to test it.
 

Offline gaelellon

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2020, 01:55:03 pm »
Hi!
My MSO5072 (FW 01.01.04.08 HV 01.01) does not display in hdmi mode 720p.
Did anyone else have it?
 

Offline vr2whf

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2020, 04:14:24 pm »
What is the noise floor performance? especially compared with Rigol DS2000A, Siglent SDS2000X?
 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2020, 05:00:47 pm »
It's about strange frequency response in 400-600 MHz range.

The analog fronted after BNC in MSO5000 have not populated serial RLC network components in comparsion of MSO7000. May be installation of this components can get more flat responce after 400 MHz? I think LC is tuned on to ~500 MHz but I have not MSO7000 to check them values.
 
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Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2020, 05:40:33 pm »
The best you will get out of a 5000 opened up is 470Mhz, the 7000 around 830Mhz
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Offline thm_w

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2020, 12:54:54 am »
The best you will get out of a 5000 opened up is 470Mhz, the 7000 around 830Mhz

They are saying maybe some HW filtering is the cause. I would be skeptical and suspect MSO7000 is using higher quality PCB or front end components, but in terms of the ASICs it should be possible.

What is the noise floor performance? especially compared with Rigol DS2000A, Siglent SDS2000X?

Worse than Siglent (<350uV?), they have very good noise floor.
Hopefully once they get hi-res working properly it will improve a bit, but the benefit of the 5000 is very high sample rate.

A low noise front end amp would probably be a good addition..
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2020, 04:05:38 pm »
We have tried quite a bit to extend the 7000 as far as is possible FW wise although we can obtain the magical 1Ghz model, the best I can see is 830Mhz.

You are correct the hardware inside the 7000 is superior, however I feel they (Rigol) have not fully worked to the best way to bring their ASIC into full focus yet!

The 8000 they seem to be getting there with extracting the potential on the chip more I feel
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Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #79 on: February 01, 2020, 03:15:50 pm »
The best you will get out of a 5000 opened up is 470Mhz, the 7000 around 830Mhz
It sounds like true, but look at this picture


MSO5000 have 500 MHz bandwidth on -3dB, but 900 MHz on -6dB. I think bandwidth as in 7000 may be obtained by simple RLC correction network in frontend which is not soldered on PCB in 5000. Or not))

[attachimg=1]
Thank you EEVblog channel!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 03:32:10 pm by neon416 »
 
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Offline tv84

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #80 on: February 01, 2020, 03:38:07 pm »
Or extend 7000 BW by desoldering?
 

Offline skander36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #81 on: March 07, 2020, 08:39:31 am »
Hi ,
Someone observed that in versions 00.01.02.00.02 & 00.01.02.00.03 , when AUTO function  is used , it will activate CH 3 even if is not signal on this ? Nothing improve after calibration .
This can be avoided in Utility ->More->Autoconfig->Only active ch. but at next boot is back.
In 00.01.01.04.08 this is not happened .
AUTO function is supposed to save your time but now turning off CH3 an resizing trace to center will not help .
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 10:26:10 am by skander36 »
 

Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #82 on: March 07, 2020, 01:29:15 pm »
Yep, exactly same problem with the new firmware.  The only workaround is to change the startup to the last state rather than the default. 
 
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Offline skander36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2020, 01:35:51 pm »
Yep, exactly same problem with the new firmware.  The only workaround is to change the startup to the last state rather than the default.
Thank you for the tip !
 

Offline pmaggi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2020, 02:04:12 pm »
One possible bug... when performing fft analysis, if you use Vrms instead of dB, peak search doesn't work, although you adjust the threshold...
This happends with FW 00.01.02.00.03
 

Offline pmaggi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #85 on: April 05, 2020, 03:19:40 pm »
my mistake, it works perfectly. I forgot to adjust the excursion
Sorry
 

Offline Back2Volts

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2020, 02:50:34 pm »
I was looking for the SIGROK download when I noticed there has been a very recent update to PULSEVIEW,  and looking a little back in the blog I noticed that, on the driver library, they have added support for the MSO5000.   I wonder what that does.   Does any one have any idea about it?
 

Offline el_man

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2020, 06:58:03 pm »
I was looking for the SIGROK download when I noticed there has been a very recent update to PULSEVIEW,  and looking a little back in the blog I noticed that, on the driver library, they have added support for the MSO5000.   I wonder what that does.   Does any one have any idea about it?

Could you be more specific. Thanks
 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2020, 07:06:35 pm »
Or extend 7000 BW by desoldering?
How? It's serial RLC net.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2020, 09:34:21 pm »
I was looking for the SIGROK download when I noticed there has been a very recent update to PULSEVIEW,  and looking a little back in the blog I noticed that, on the driver library, they have added support for the MSO5000.   I wonder what that does.   Does any one have any idea about it?

https://github.com/sigrokproject/libsigrok/commit/f6129c8f0c92e45de5d70b4101bf2bd759a5fdf7
https://github.com/sigrokproject/libsigrok/blob/4c5f70063ad6ae311809ee7818ddc9070fbe05cf/src/hardware/rigol-ds/api.c

Should be able to read analog and digital channels, not sure what if any limitations there are for triggering/etc.
Try it out and let us know.
 

Offline Phils

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #90 on: May 05, 2020, 03:50:17 pm »
Hello!  Bought Mso5072 firmware was 00.01.02. 00.03, when measuring in signal mode sinus with a voltage of 0.5 volts, the probe x10 after pressing the auto button oscillograph can not synchronize the signal, installed firmware ..... 08 opened all the options, calibrated, the problem is the same. If I switch the probe x1 there are no problems with synchronization. I still have dso4102c there all right... The seller offers to return the oscillograph, can I fix it myself?
 

Offline TK

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2020, 03:58:20 pm »
Hello!  Bought Mso5072 firmware was 00.01.02. 00.03, when measuring in signal mode sinus with a voltage of 0.5 volts, the probe x10 after pressing the auto button oscillograph can not synchronize the signal, installed firmware ..... 08 opened all the options, calibrated, the problem is the same. If I switch the probe x1 there are no problems with synchronization. I still have dso4102c there all right... The seller offers to return the oscillograph, can I fix it myself?
The signal is noisy, looks like ground connection is missing.  It will trigger on the spikes and you end up seeing an out of sync signal, but the scope is triggering correctly.
 
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Offline Phils

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2020, 04:10:31 pm »
There is no grounding in the 220 volt socket if I include HFR  no problem in the  oscillograph no, but there is a buzz as to why dso4102c is fine. Maybe capacitors on the main voltage do not work?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 04:21:05 pm by Phils »
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #93 on: May 05, 2020, 08:47:46 pm »
There is no grounding in the 220 volt socket if I include HFR  no problem in the  oscillograph no, but there is a buzz as to why dso4102c is fine. Maybe capacitors on the main voltage do not work?

When you have the probe set to 1x the bandwidth is reduced, and maybe these spikes are as well.
Measure something else other than the 220V socket. Use the internal function generator, the cal signal, or some other circuit you have. Don't rely on 220V mains voltage to be consistent as a reference.

edit: as TK pointed out its gen already, can see scope probe connected to the gen 1 output.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 10:03:51 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline TK

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #94 on: May 05, 2020, 08:51:14 pm »
There is no grounding in the 220 volt socket if I include HFR  no problem in the  oscillograph no, but there is a buzz as to why dso4102c is fine. Maybe capacitors on the main voltage do not work?

When you have the probe set to 1x the bandwidth is reduced, and maybe these spikes are as well.
Measure something else other than the 220V socket. Use the internal function generator, the cal signal, or some other circuit you have. Don't rely on 220V mains voltage to be consistent as a reference.
I think the signal source is the internal waveform generator, not the 220V mains.  The reference to 220V mains not having ground is probably due to an old installation.  If the source is the internal waveform generator, then I would like to know how it was connected to CH1 input.
 
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Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #95 on: May 05, 2020, 10:52:51 pm »
There is no grounding in the 220 volt socket if I include HFR  no problem in the  oscillograph no, but there is a buzz as to why dso4102c is fine. Maybe capacitors on the main voltage do not work?
Try to connect probe tip to SG output case (ground). If you whatever see this spikes - problem is in EMC, if not - in SG signal.
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #96 on: May 06, 2020, 12:05:40 am »
I'm on 01.03.00.01 and there is a still a bug for the external HDMI.  Mine won't output a signal even though the output is switched to on.  After the scope has run a few minutes (5 maybe), it will work but only after restarting the scope.  When I've tried to get it working too early, I get a distorted HDMI picture that's all red-toned
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 
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Offline TK

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2020, 01:11:41 am »
There is no grounding in the 220 volt socket if I include HFR  no problem in the  oscillograph no, but there is a buzz as to why dso4102c is fine. Maybe capacitors on the main voltage do not work?
Try to connect probe tip to SG output case (ground). If you whatever see this spikes - problem is in EMC, if not - in SG signal.
:popcorn:
 

Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #98 on: May 06, 2020, 02:21:39 am »
I'm on 01.03.00.01 and there is a still a bug for the external HDMI.  Mine won't output a signal even though the output is switched to on.  After the scope has run a few minutes (5 maybe), it will work but only after restarting the scope.  When I've tried to get it working too early, I get a distorted HDMI picture that's all red-toned

I have my monitor attached to the MSO5000, from a cold start, I was able to get a perfect display as soon as I can get to the menu to turn the external display on, no restart involved.  You have to consider the possibility of a hardware issue.  My hardware is ver 1.00.00

I presume it is a HDMI cable straight to the monitor in your case with no switch involved?
 

Offline Phils

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2020, 04:45:33 am »
Changed all the entries 1-4. Changed the output of generator 1 and 2, which does not change. Today I'll check at work, there is a grounding in 220v
 

Offline Phils

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #100 on: May 06, 2020, 07:35:23 am »
Once connected with grounding, the noise is now greater.When you connect the probe to the ground there is a big noise. Send it to the seller?
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #101 on: May 06, 2020, 08:48:48 am »
I have my monitor attached to the MSO5000, from a cold start, I was able to get a perfect display as soon as I can get to the menu to turn the external display on, no restart involved.  You have to consider the possibility of a hardware issue.  My hardware is ver 1.00.00

I presume it is a HDMI cable straight to the monitor in your case with no switch involved?
Thanks, my hardware is 1.01.00 (I think).  I tried 2 different HDMI cables - yes it's just a cable, no switch or anything.  The symptom was there with the 'old' monitor that jumped off the shelf after 2 days so it's likely hardware or firmware in the scope.  One of the latest updates lists something like "improved HDMI startup" so I had assumed it was a firmware issue.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

Offline aristarchus

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #102 on: May 06, 2020, 10:00:29 am »
Is the HDMI monitor connected in prior to oscope before power on?
If it is not then it does not hurt to give it a try.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #103 on: May 06, 2020, 10:29:15 am »
@Phils: You are running the scope at a vertical sensitivity of 20mV/div. If you (properly) dialed in a probe scaling factor of 1:10 then the sensitivity at the BNC is 2mV/div. Under these circumstances, some noise is to be expected. Since I haven't got an MSO5000, I cannot tell how much can be considered normal. At these kind of sensitivity settings and the full bandwidth of the scope enabled, even the ground lead of the probe may pick up considerable RF interference. You can try to experiment with the short grounding spring at the proble sleeve - this usually helps a lot at reducing received RF background. Probing techniques can sometimes be awkward.


Edit: Typos
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 12:24:56 pm by TurboTom »
 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2020, 10:41:45 am »
Once connected with grounding, the noise is now greater.When you connect the probe to the ground there is a big noise. Send it to the seller?
Wait a little)
Now try this experiment with probe ground directly connected to TG BNC case (by steel contact spring from probe packaging), not by alligator wire.

Oops. I look not on previous message))) TurboTom wrote right things)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 10:45:38 am by neon416 »
 
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Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #105 on: May 06, 2020, 10:54:07 am »
At these kind of sensitivity settings and the full bandwidth of the scope enabled, even the ground lead of the probe may pick up considerable RF interference.
It's a problem. I live about 10km from FM/TV broadcast tower. If I simple short probe by connecting alligator to it's tip this "antenna" receive about 0.1V of EMI from that tower)) Only "spring grounding" to DUT make deal.
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #106 on: May 06, 2020, 11:06:57 am »
Is the HDMI monitor connected in prior to oscope before power on?
If it is not then it does not hurt to give it a try.
I tried both connected and not connected, it seems that, when the scope is cold, the HDMI doesn't want to start up.  The caption on the screen allows you to turn HDMI on and off but the monitor reports that there is no signal.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

Offline Phils

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #107 on: May 06, 2020, 05:32:43 pm »
I sent the seller to replace the oscillograph. With grounding only worse because I was unable to sync with the internal calibration of the 1 kHz square, 2 volts, without grounding synchronized, probably broken EMC. How to get a new review...
Thank you all so much
 

Offline TK

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #108 on: May 06, 2020, 05:38:49 pm »
I have my monitor attached to the MSO5000, from a cold start, I was able to get a perfect display as soon as I can get to the menu to turn the external display on, no restart involved.  You have to consider the possibility of a hardware issue.  My hardware is ver 1.00.00

I presume it is a HDMI cable straight to the monitor in your case with no switch involved?
Thanks, my hardware is 1.01.00 (I think).  I tried 2 different HDMI cables - yes it's just a cable, no switch or anything.  The symptom was there with the 'old' monitor that jumped off the shelf after 2 days so it's likely hardware or firmware in the scope.  One of the latest updates lists something like "improved HDMI startup" so I had assumed it was a firmware issue.
It looks like you have a faulty unit.  Have you tried contacting Rigol USA?
 

Offline Back2Volts

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #109 on: May 08, 2020, 02:16:51 pm »
I was looking for the SIGROK download when I noticed there has been a very recent update to PULSEVIEW,  and looking a little back in the blog I noticed that, on the driver library, they have added support for the MSO5000.   I wonder what that does.   Does any one have any idea about it?

Could you be more specific. Thanks
https://www.sigrok.org/blog/blog

...
The following hardware is now (additionally) supported:
...
Oscilloscopes: Agilent DSO1000B series, Hameg HMO3522, Rigol MSO5000 series, R&S HMO1000/RTA4000/RTB2000/RTC1000/RTM3000 series, YiXingDianZi MDSO

...
 

Offline Back2Volts

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #110 on: May 10, 2020, 09:14:49 am »
I was looking for the SIGROK download when I noticed there has been a very recent update to PULSEVIEW,  and looking a little back in the blog I noticed that, on the driver library, they have added support for the MSO5000.   I wonder what that does.   Does any one have any idea about it?

https://github.com/sigrokproject/libsigrok/commit/f6129c8f0c92e45de5d70b4101bf2bd759a5fdf7
https://github.com/sigrokproject/libsigrok/blob/4c5f70063ad6ae311809ee7818ddc9070fbe05cf/src/hardware/rigol-ds/api.c

Should be able to read analog and digital channels, not sure what if any limitations there are for triggering/etc.
Try it out and let us know.
The comment in the first link points to some data flow limitations.    Talking about trigger limitations, I have not pulled the trigger yet for buying one of these.   There are some things that need to fall in place before I do, plus warm weather seasonal activity adjustment may postpone it till fall.
 

Offline stafil

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #111 on: May 12, 2020, 05:44:25 am »
I am busting my head but can't seem to be able to find the segmented memory feature. All I see is the record option, but it records in intervals and not based on the trigger. What am I missing?

Edit: Nevermind, found it, I needed to be in Normal mode.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 05:49:03 am by stafil »
 

Offline SimonH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #112 on: May 13, 2020, 09:38:17 am »
I may be wrong, but I think the MSO5000 doesn't have a real segmented memory feature. After all, they also don't call it like that. Instead of segmenting the sample memory, it just waits for a trigger, samples, stores the samples in "normal/slow" memory, and waits for a trigger again. Still very useful in many cases, but you have a long dead-time after each waveform sample.
 

Offline Ayraidizko

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #113 on: May 17, 2020, 11:20:12 pm »
So, I'm about to purchase the Rigol 5074 and potentially hack it to 350. I feel that this Oscilloscope still has great value, but it seems to have a lot of issues as well... Is everybody hapy with their MSO? and would you recommend it?
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #114 on: May 17, 2020, 11:27:57 pm »
I´ve owned the MSO5000 over a year and what I could say about it is, that you can´t get wrong with it, when you couldn´t/wouldn´t spend more money.
I know siglent, rigol models under the price of a MSO5074, they couldn´t reach it in any way.
Like I was mostly saying, this puppy is a raw diamond.
If you could spend 1400 bucks, then go for the siglent sds2k+ like I did.
If not, take the 5074, nothing else.
And don´t worry about the issues it got - Make your decision, does they affect your work with the scope…

 
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #115 on: May 18, 2020, 01:01:19 am »
I'm happy with mine.  It's hard to get close to it in terms of value for money.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 
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Offline ve2mrx

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #116 on: May 18, 2020, 03:05:11 am »
Hi everyone!

After reading almost everything about the Rigol MSO5000 on this forum and comparing the MSO5074 with the Rigol DS1054Z, DS1104Z-S Plus and Siglent SDS1104X-E, I ordered the MSO5074. There's currently a promo with the options bundle for free, probably because they know it's hacked ;-)

I don't need 100MHz now, so I won't pay for it until I need it, and when I will need more that 4 channels of serial decoding, I'll buy a separate LA like the DSLogic U3Pro16.

Comparing the Rigol MSO5074 and the Siglent SDS1104X-E, I came to the conclusion that the SDS was a bit older, mature, and that the MSO wasn't mature yet but more capable. I hesitated as I wanted a stable scope, but it looks like you enjoy using it. Besides, it will be my first scope in 25 years! I don't think it will be a mistake for hobby work.

Also, I ordered a 121GW from Dave :-)

Thanks for your information while I lurked here reading your adventures in MSO5000 land.
Martin
EDIT: I meant to post in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 03:30:15 pm by ve2mrx »
 
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Offline Ayraidizko

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2020, 07:01:22 am »
I´ve owned the MSO5000 over a year and what I could say about it is, that you can´t get wrong with it, when you couldn´t/wouldn´t spend more money.
I know siglent, rigol models under the price of a MSO5074, they couldn´t reach it in any way.
Like I was mostly saying, this puppy is a raw diamond.
If you could spend 1400 bucks, then go for the siglent sds2k+ like I did.
If not, take the 5074, nothing else.
And don´t worry about the issues it got - Make your decision, does they affect your work with the scope…

I'm happy with mine.  It's hard to get close to it in terms of value for money.


Thank you so much for both your responses! I think I will pull the trigger on it. 
 
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Offline macaba

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #118 on: May 19, 2020, 10:51:37 am »
Had my MSO5074 for a week, quite happy. Attached is a small bit of analysis that I've done so far.
 
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Offline ve2mrx

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Bus Status vs intensity dial
« Reply #119 on: May 26, 2020, 02:51:10 pm »
Hi everyone!

I think I found a bug in FW 00.01.03.00.01:

  • Set up for I2C decoding
  • In Decode > Decode? > Bus Status > ON
  • Press Menu off, Back, some other button
  • The intensity dial only moves the Bus Status, but won't change the intensity

Can anyone confirm if it's me or a bug?

Thanks,
Martin
 

Offline macaba

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #120 on: June 04, 2020, 04:17:57 pm »
Been using my MSO5074 for a few weeks now. By far the most annoying behavior:

Say you're on 100uV/div with a -200uV offset. Rotate the knob to change to 50uV/div and the offset changes to -100uV rather than staying on -200uV!  >:(

Is there a setting for this?
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #121 on: June 04, 2020, 07:54:09 pm »
If we're using this as a list of annoying aspects of the MSO5000, here's mine.

I leave my probe switches at x10.  Every time I cycle power, the setting returns to x1, I'd like it to remember the settings until I change them.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

Offline tcottle

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #122 on: June 04, 2020, 08:12:27 pm »
Its buried 3 levels down

Utility>System>Power On>Last
 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #123 on: June 04, 2020, 09:17:46 pm »
Quote
Its buried 3 levels down

And this is imho a main problem of the UI...

Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #124 on: June 05, 2020, 12:18:38 am »
Starting the scope at the previous state is a workaround but has problems of its own.  One does not always want to return to the previous state if you are working on more than one project, it creates far more problems than it solves.  A better option is to have a set of user configuration that one can store, and a menu to choose the default config to boot the scope with.  It shouldn’t be hard to code, but I don’t know if Rigol really care about what it’s customer has to say, so I won’t hold my breath.
 

Offline ve2mrx

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #125 on: June 05, 2020, 01:53:32 am »
Hi!
I, for one, use the settings save and restore function, but if you don't set the channels to x10 (like the probes are set) before you restore, odd stuff happens (IIRC, with the trigger).

Also, I think that the restore to last function needs to have a saved settings done before it works as expected.

Diamond in the rough, but nice to use still!

Martin
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #126 on: June 05, 2020, 07:47:32 am »
A better option is to have a set of user configuration that one can store, and a menu to choose the default config to boot the scope with.  It shouldn’t be hard to code, but I don’t know if Rigol really care about what it’s customer has to say, so I won’t hold my breath.

Powering it on/off to load a preset in stead of pressing a few buttons?

How is that a good idea? Remind me again how long these take to boot...

Quote
Its buried 3 levels down
And this is imho a main problem of the UI...

Maybe it's not used often enough to deserve being at top level.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 07:49:26 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #127 on: June 05, 2020, 08:39:03 am »
You can also 'save' your particular measurement parameters for you experiment as a 'setup' then just load it up when you boot or when you change experiments. Works for me 
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #128 on: June 05, 2020, 07:22:51 pm »
Here's another bug (sorry if it's already been raised)...

When performing a self-calibration, the pop up dialogue box that has the % complete says "waitting" (too many 't's)
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Offline Axk

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #129 on: June 05, 2020, 11:00:00 pm »
Hi everyone!

Sorry for a silly question looking at buying such a scope and wonder if it has a plastic smell.
If you keep it on the workbench can you feel the smell in the room?

(I'm allergic to strong smells so an important consideration for me as silly as it may sound :))
 

Offline ve2mrx

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #130 on: June 05, 2020, 11:38:27 pm »
Hi Axk,

It smelled a bit when I unpacked it, but I couldn't smell it after a few days. In doubt, open the package in a well ventilated place outside the house and leave it there for a few hours/days.

Every fresh electronics does smell when sealed for a time. But this one is on the low side. Of course, YMMV!

Martin
 
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Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #131 on: June 05, 2020, 11:48:22 pm »
You missed my point, I never referred to rebooting the scope just to load a different config.  Getting back to the original requirement - the ability to select 10X as the default as one boots the scope.  My suggestion was to save a config with the 10X option selected, then provide an option to choose it as the default boot config.  That way, every time you boot the scope, the probe is set at 10X as the default. 



A better option is to have a set of user configuration that one can store, and a menu to choose the default config to boot the scope with.  It shouldn’t be hard to code, but I don’t know if Rigol really care about what it’s customer has to say, so I won’t hold my breath.

Powering it on/off to load a preset in stead of pressing a few buttons?

How is that a good idea? Remind me again how long these take to boot...

Quote
Its buried 3 levels down
And this is imho a main problem of the UI...

Maybe it's not used often enough to deserve being at top level.
 

Offline Axk

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #132 on: June 06, 2020, 12:42:40 am »
ve2mrx, I'm asking because I've a 1054z and it has this rather strong smell, the gray plastic of the probes and the scope. Fills the room even hands smell for some time after holding the probes. And it's been 4 years (I keep it in an airtight box most of the time to keep the smell away).
 

Offline ve2mrx

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #133 on: June 06, 2020, 01:23:34 am »
Hi Axk,
You are probably making things worse by sealing it up between uses. The gasses need to get out of the material for the smell to go away.

It is pretty much like trying to dry out a towel by sealing it up in a plastic bag: it never dries, and the moisture end up interacting with the content making things worse like altering the materials.

I think further discussions about outgassing and smell should be in another thread so we don't hijack this one. Post the link back in the MSO5000 thread list and here.

Martin
 
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #134 on: June 06, 2020, 10:25:38 am »
I don't have a very sensitive sense of smell but my MSO5074 doesn't smell at all IMHO.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 
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Offline macaba

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #135 on: June 07, 2020, 12:21:29 pm »
I got curious about the analog gains in the front end. Using the SCPI interface, I was able to get the raw ADC counts. I then swept the channel 1 vertical offset to establish Vmin and Vmax for each of the vertical gains being tested.

Code: [Select]
500uV. ADC 0 = -7.3mV,  ADC 255 = +7.65mV (Screen: -2mV to +2mV)
1mV.   ADC 0 = -14.6mV, ADC 255 = +15mV   (Screen: -4mV to +4mV)
2mV.   ADC 0 = -14.6mV, ADC 255 = +15mV   (Screen: -8mV to +8mV)
5mV.   ADC 0 = -25.6mV, ADC 255 = +26.2mV (Screen: -20mV to +20mV)
10mV.  ADC 0 = -51.2mV, ADC 255 = +52.8mV (Screen: -40mV to +40mV)
20mV.  ADC 0 = -101mV,  ADC 255 = +104mV  (Screen: -80mV to +80mV)
50mV.  ADC 0 = -254mV,  ADC 255 = +258mV  (Screen: -200mV to +200mV)
100mV. ADC 0 = -500mV,  ADC 255 = +512mV  (Screen: -400mV to +400mV)
200mV. ADC 0 = -1.01V,  ADC 255 = +1.03V  (Screen: -0.8V to +0.8V)
500mV. ADC 0 = -2.56V,  ADC 255 = +2.64V  (Screen: -2V to +2V)

It seems the 500uV isn't a 'lie' as it is the final analog gain step (but 1mV is a lie). Probably should have been: 5mV, 2.5mV, 1mV (with no 500uV range).

Might also make more sense if the top and bottom UI moved to the left/right, and we got 4.5 divisions up and 4.5 divisions down.

Edit: What's not so good; SCPI interface slows the UI down, and it's just crashed the UI.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 12:29:47 pm by macaba »
 
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Offline AlexS

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #136 on: June 15, 2020, 07:58:38 pm »
Hey guys! Maybe somebody has resolved a bug and can share with the experience.
Different levels of the same signal from trigger. And measure results between input and output signal looks much more horrible :-//
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2020, 08:17:22 pm »
On the first pic, the different measure seems plausible to me, as the negative halfwave are slightly more and under the divison grid, as the positive one.

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2020, 09:17:19 pm »
On the first pic, the different measure seems plausible to me, as the negative halfwave are slightly more and under the divison grid, as the positive one.
Exactly, it's a probe compensation output FFS not some precision square wave supply.
There also could be some minor channel 0V offset indicating the scope needs Self Cal run.
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Offline AlexS

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #139 on: June 15, 2020, 11:11:54 pm »
It was self calibrated and compensation was installed. The only one that I can imagine - I hacked it and did not used previous backup. Does it make sense?! What do you think guys?
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #140 on: June 15, 2020, 11:36:40 pm »
Did you run a self calibration?
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Offline AlexS

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2020, 07:35:58 am »
Sure! I’ve used self calibration and has removed previous. And the problem you know... When I’m measuring amplified signal is about 6-7 times sine wave loosing symmetricality.
 

Offline AlexS

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #142 on: June 16, 2020, 07:38:33 am »
That’s very strange. DS1054z showing normal data - everything perfect. Higher model MSO showing incorrect. Paradox. Ahah
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 09:53:15 am by AlexS »
 

Offline TK

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #143 on: June 16, 2020, 12:27:32 pm »
Maybe it is the opposite. You need a third scope to compare
 
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Offline ve2mrx

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #144 on: June 16, 2020, 01:42:59 pm »
IIRC, the calibration verification guide mentioned to re-run self-calibration if out of spec...

I recommend doing it away from any potential electrical interference... You know, like in the middle of electrical nowhere  ;-) For me, it's the kitchen table with lights and electronics off while the fridge compressor is not running!

I wonder if those "option" channel caps would help?
 

Offline AlexS

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #145 on: June 18, 2020, 07:43:46 pm »
Kitchen table sounds great :) Ahaha
I've sent a message to Rigol. Will waiting for a reply. Keep you posted, guys.
 

Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #146 on: June 18, 2020, 09:27:05 pm »
I discovered MSO5000 is indeed susceptible to electrical noise and RF interference, you can look up our discussion on phantom channels if you want to read more.  In my case, my WiFi was creating enough noise to turn random channels on when I pressed the Auto button.  I think this is due to inadequate shielding on the front end, as the shield has an opening to expose the heat sink when compared to the 7000, so definitely move the scope to a spot far from any electrical or RF noise while you do your calibration as it can really mess the calibration up.

You should also take noise into consideration when you do your final placement in your lab. 

 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #147 on: June 19, 2020, 01:23:55 am »
I discovered MSO5000 is indeed susceptible to electrical noise and RF interference ..

Thanks for the 'heads-up' on this  :)

I still have not fully deployed my new 5074, but when I do - I will do some specific testing.

Having a SSA (now SVA) and multiple 'controlled' RF generators - I should be able to see what level of RF and perhaps what Freq the MSO5000 is sensitive  ;)
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #148 on: June 19, 2020, 04:47:13 am »
I know a few chaps have suffered from this with the 5000, we have not at all on any of 5/7 and 8000 Rigol models.
While you firing your rf pulses around noreply and checking for various anomalies do hook up your 5000 to SA directly from say port one and set for a general 7.5Ghz sweep and have a look for anything interesting?
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Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #149 on: June 19, 2020, 08:20:43 am »
... and set for a general 7.5Ghz sweep ...

I wish (he says with envy) - not all of us are as fortunate to enter the 7.5Ghz club :P
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #150 on: June 19, 2020, 08:48:35 am »
I know a few chaps have suffered from this with the 5000, we have not at all on any of 5/7 and 8000 Rigol models.

Interesting you say this ...

I had been watching (several times) various teardowns on 5000 and 7000
- as the 5000 was released after the 7000, Rigol appears to have made some mods in general shielding and power distribution
- at least different to the 7000
- better in MHO ...

That said, I'm thinking that the RF susceptibility could be software related ??

How could that be, you might ask?

Well one thing that comes to mind
- if I configure the front-end ASIC to 'listen' on FULL BW its capable
- sure I'm going to 'open the door' for some unwanted RF to enter  :P

To mitigate this (an example), one would limit the front end ASIC to only listen for the MSO's defined BW.

Maybe this is already implemented
- just thinking aloud here
- as to why some of the 5000's could have this problem with stray RF fields

Another potential problem is ‘poor’ power supply filtering.

Under static (non RF field testing) the PSU can pass with flying colours.

However if ‘stray RF’ (even low level pulse) enters its ‘control loop / regulation’ subsystem
– this will manifest in all sort of potential problems with the signal processing of the MSO.

One quick fix (very easy and low cost)
- is to put the ‘supply’ cable which plugs-into the main board through a large Ferrite Core for Power Supply Decoupling (see attached picture)
– doing this can only improve and protect from any future problems.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if the general susceptibility of the 5000 to RF is related to early batch or FW revisions.

I wonder if they ‘changed’ the revision on the PSU from the early release HW to current release??

OR

– the overall HW revision designation
– also covers the PSU changes??
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #151 on: June 19, 2020, 08:56:26 am »
- is to put the ‘supply’ cable which plugs-into the main board through a large Ferrite Core for Power Supply Decoupling (see attached picture)

oops ... sorry forgot to attach the picture  |O
 

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #152 on: June 19, 2020, 08:58:05 am »
... and set for a general 7.5Ghz sweep ...

I wish (he says with envy) - not all of us are as fortunate to enter the 7.5Ghz club :P
But 3.2 GHz is possible.  ;)
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Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #153 on: June 19, 2020, 12:37:14 pm »
Hi noreply

None of our units have this problem that's been reported I have found another potential issue, just curious of you can replicated on your 5000.

You can rule out power supply noise coupling and pretty much all of the  conducted emissions I have taken care of that on my personal models. I rebuilt them to a standard I am now happy with.

I also use a interesting mains filtration device that helps no end with a lot of unwanted UK rubbish (but not all)

Having been all over the 5/7/8000 scopes with rf probes, rf current probes and LISN's I would be interested in anything you may find, the shielding on the 8000 is particularly good with rf fingers absolutely everywhere. Though not surprising as the FFT function goes way beyond 3.7Ghz.

One of the points you listed may be pertinent possible ADC noise, nearly finished out internal reworking of many of the localized power supplies and decoupling on the 8000 board.   

Sorry I wasn't being funny 7.5Ghz is my lowest normal SA. Even with 3.2Ghz you may find some something worth looking at.

Many thanks

Sighound
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #154 on: June 19, 2020, 02:05:51 pm »

Sorry I wasn't being funny 7.5Ghz is my lowest normal SA ...

Sure, no worries - this was MY tong-in-cheek remark  ;)

tv warned me about you and the insatiable quest for high end (not label - but performance) kit - it can be addictive and danger to my wallet :P

If you use your 'kit' to make a living - that's great - best of both worlds - love what you do and get paid for doing it  :clap:

Unfortunately at this moment in time - my 'kit' is more hobby / quest for knowledge than paying the bills  :(

But yeah .. I hear what you say  :)

I've got some housekeeping to do before deploying the 5000, like get all of my attenuators working (building a 30dB 250W attenuator for high level RF stuff), connectors, probes, PSU's , etc,etc - all in a nice and ergonomic workstation style bench / desk.

I also have got the Rigol PLA2216 Active Logic Probe kit - so am eager to do some digital testing with the 5000

To get me going my Rigol distributor was kind enough to provide me with the DS6000-DK Demo Board (attached picture) for extended loan.

Not sure if other forum members have ever used this device - it’s got an Cyclone III as the core - so don't know what exactly Rigol configured here (other than the obvious) - or whether there is a way to control the FPGA directly - so we could have ‘full’ control with this demo HW  :-\


For about GBP200 – for use as ‘demo board’ to generate test signals – it’s a ‘rip-off’

BUT

If we can program the FPGA and create our own test vectors – this then becomes a valuable tool for the GBP200

Any input on the is welcome ..

Anyway, I look forward in getting ALL my kit 'up and running' - so I can then start to do the really interesting stuff  :P
 
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Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #155 on: June 19, 2020, 03:03:02 pm »
BTW Sighound ...

Have you seen this bit of 'kit' - SM200C — 20 GHz Real-time Spectrum Analyser with 10GbE

It can tune from 100 kHz to 20 GHz

AND

It can sweep at 1 THz/sec at 30 kHz RBW
It just scraped under uncle sam's ATF regulations - so we can buy it  ;)


... PLEASE don't tell me you got one already  :P  (I'm Joking, I really AM - after all its made by a company, Signalhound,  not very far removed from your eevblog 'tag' Sighound - only difference is 'na' - short for no, I don't have one  :P - so I hope you can forgive me for posting this with a double tong-in-cheek)

But if I win 'lotto' and after I help my fellow human beings less fortunate AND still have some $$ left over - this WILL be on my bench for sure  ;)
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #156 on: June 19, 2020, 05:02:49 pm »
Hi noreply

The Sighound unit looks interesting but its stops at 20Ghz its only downside unless you are using down-mixers of frequency extenders. Seriously a worth a look product  8)

There has been a version of this before I believe, still again quite an achievement  :-+

To be honest its not all about £$£ it is finding that piece of equipment that works for you personally, in the way that you work with it, and will help you in your work or quest for learning. As we really do not stop learning and EEV blog and forum are great placed to help understand those areas we are not good at.

Plus the vast majority of participants on here are genuinely happy to help unlike other hobby/interest forums.

My knowledge is ok in a few areas  :-BROKE and its nice to see so many genuinely intelligent and articulate people sharing their thoughts and ideas with the general population.

Mind you Tautech can be a pain in the arse occasionally but aside the fact he tries to flog sand to Southend on Sea council for beach reclamation, his hearts in the right place and his Siglent knowledge is well used on this forum.

Coding and myself are like Trump and common sense they don't mix, so I find the coding, FPGA and associated hardware of great interest.

Anyhow happy to help were I can

« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 05:07:36 pm by Sighound36 »
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Offline tv84

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #157 on: June 19, 2020, 05:44:00 pm »
But if I win 'lotto' and after I help my fellow human beings less fortunate AND still have some $$ left over - this WILL be on my bench for sure  ;)

Don't forget you also need a "decent" PC...  :D
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #158 on: June 19, 2020, 06:22:41 pm »


Coding and myself are like Trump and common sense they don't mix, so I find the coding, FPGA and associated hardware of great interest.

Anyhow happy to help were I can

Yes .. you are 100% about the people here ..

I like the pay-it-forward approach, if you join a group of knowledgeable people - bring something to the 'table' before you start taking food from it which is not yours - where 'food' = 'knowledge'


This philosophy will always work with the people you respect - simply by default – because they are the knowledgeable individuals with whom you want to engage and share in the first place ;)


So here is something useful (at least for myself) which I found and happy as always to share with others here …

Yes I’m happy to check out the Rigol DS6000-DK Demo Board, but like I said , if it does not have some hidden capability - via the FPGS - that we can use for ‘other’ stuff, then its not a keeper for me  :(


My alternative (I’ve already hedged myself with this device) – is a cheap < GBP 10 device – a STM32F103 Nucleo-64 (see attached image) which is easy to program to use as BOTH an analogue and digital test bed for generating some test signals for use as ‘inputs’ for various devices under test that we may have.


There is LOTS of user guides for this type of device and easy to ‘break into’ the programming / coding space.


Second, useful device I have acquired are BNC Male to SMA plugs (see attached image) – the idea here is to use the AWG(s) of the MSO to directly drive my stuff – which usually has SMA connectors.


I’m slowly realizing that the cost of this

– what I call ‘glue’ bits and pieces
– slowly adds-up to more that the device you will be using the items with  |O


With the SVA, I’ve spend at least GBP500 on all sorts of connectors, attenuators, amplifiers, etc, etc, just to have a flexible instrument which I can use with many different DUT(s) that I intend to connect in the future.


I’m sure you know this aready - as so should others on this thread  :P
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #159 on: June 19, 2020, 09:15:33 pm »
I feel you have the nail on the head there no reply

Buying the scope/sa/vna/impedance analyser/TDR device power analyser etc is just the start, the test fixtures, cabling adapters, couplets, lists, attenutators, probes etc

The costs can be almost as much as the hardware and new players (got to love Dave 8)) are not aware of what is required even for basic power measurements or rf probing etc

Now some items I have fabricated rf amplifiers breakout boxes etc.

However certain items we just have to have to enable us to achieve the desired results and you can not scrimp on them especially with ultra quiet power supplies the probes are silly money for what the really are.

Maybe worth while putting together a list of basic essential accessories for say scopes, sa and vna's and a price and performance level that will support hobbyists parameters

Our next  purchase is likely to be a higher bandwidth dedicated VNA or a TDR device though that will be after the MXR if it passes muster
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #160 on: June 19, 2020, 10:50:39 pm »

Our next  purchase is likely to be a higher bandwidth dedicated VNA or a TDR device though that will be after the MXR if it passes muster

Sounds like you have a well-equipped ship (lab)
- and I'm sure you are a first rate captain (engineer) to navigate troubled waters :P


With all the firepower of your 'ship' you must have some interesting waters into which you enter  ;)


This link is totally of topic
 
- but something I found very interesting (I think you will also)
- so wanted to share in the general chat section ...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/nixi-tube-vs-led-latency/


Sooner or later I will attempt to do the 'experiment' with LED's
 
- I should have sufficient firepower on my ship to get me some answers  :)


 

Offline Lysanthe

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #161 on: July 03, 2020, 03:27:30 pm »
Hello,

just got my MS5074 today, hacked in less than 1min (kudos to you guys here).

Tried the awg.
Sine wave is all ok.
With Square wave I am getting some serious overshooting (hope I picked the right term).
Made some screenshots for 100kHZ, 1MHz and 15MHz (doesn't look like square wave by any mean).

Is this behavior intended that way?

Regards
Martin
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #162 on: July 03, 2020, 08:39:34 pm »
Do you have the ground connection made? Such ringing on the analog inputs of a scope is often because there' isn't a good ground.  Try a walking stick ground connector on the scope probe.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

Offline ve2mrx

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #163 on: July 04, 2020, 03:20:43 am »
Hi Lysanthe,

Just checking, the probes are in x10 and are calibrated, right? :-)

Martin
 

Offline Lysanthe

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #164 on: July 04, 2020, 06:14:25 am »
Yes and in made the messaurements with 1x Probe since the should Work Till 30MHz
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #165 on: July 04, 2020, 10:15:56 am »
Yes and in made the messaurements with 1x Probe since the should Work Till 30MHz

Yes, but square waves are made out of sine waves. What's the frequency of the highest sine wave in your signal? Is it more than 30MHz?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave#Fourier_analysis

 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #166 on: July 05, 2020, 05:40:36 pm »
Finally did some testing on the MSO5074 -> now a 5350

A precursor to my full review - coming soon  ;)

Frequency BW test

There have been various comments regarding the -3dB bandwidth limit for the MSO5000 - some forum members have stated that you can 'stretch it' to as high as 480Mhz  :-\

Well , I decided to make an accurate test with my device

Signal source was via a calibrated RF Sig Gen using a directly connected low loss 6GHz capable cable with inline 50 Ohm termination on the Rigol Channel 1 input.

The Rigol MSO5000 was set to 'full BW'

The Initial frequency and amplitude was set to be precisely 100Mhz at 1.00Vpp

Then I swept the frequency until I reached 707mVpp - giving me the -3dB point

The frequency where the -3dB point was reached was 415MHz

This figure is well below the 'claimed' 450+ MHz by others, but at least its a trusted figure for my device.

One important caveat for the above measurements and result ...

The testing was made with direct (in effect lossless at this frequency) cable connection.

If you are going to use your supplied PVP2350 probes - your mileage might vary - since the probes are rated at 350Mhz

Hope the above information is useful  ;)


Screen Cap 1

The initial input signal frequency and level


Screen Cap 2

The -3dB signal frequency point
 
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Offline Lysanthe

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #167 on: July 06, 2020, 08:20:15 am »
Do you have the ground connection made? Such ringing on the analog inputs of a scope is often because there' isn't a good ground.  Try a walking stick ground connector on the scope probe.
For some reasons I thought that the grounds are internally connected and therefore it doesn't matter whether it's connected or not.
Boy, was I wrong;) Though the are of course internally connected, I had to connect GND to get a way better signal.
Still some overshooting, but not as bad as previously posted.

Thx for your support!
 
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Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #168 on: July 11, 2020, 03:30:23 pm »
I try my MSO5074 "upgraded" scope on direct cable (without probe).

-3dB bandwidth is 630 MHz.
-6dB bandwidth is 700 MHz.

 

Offline sb42

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #169 on: July 11, 2020, 08:19:36 pm »
I try my MSO5074 "upgraded" scope on direct cable (without probe).

-3dB bandwidth is 630 MHz.
-6dB bandwidth is 700 MHz.

Interesting. Do you mean hardware modifications? And are you going to post an updated frequency-response graph? :)
 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #170 on: July 11, 2020, 08:48:54 pm »
Do you mean hardware modifications? And are you going to post an updated frequency-response graph? :)
I did not make any hardware modifications. May be slightly later)

P.S. Used cable has 50 Ohm impedance and terminated close to oscilloscope BNC. Signal source alsо have 50 Ohm output impedance. Maybe this is important?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 08:56:00 pm by neon416 »
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #171 on: July 11, 2020, 11:26:25 pm »
Interesting results


Made me revisit - to see if there is some consistency with these results and what I measured before

Here is what I observed as some major differences, and before any judgement can be made - as I really don't know what the proper convention is and if these observations have any relevance, can someone with experience in -3db BW measurements PLEASE chime-in

My original measurements were at 1Vrms at 100MHz as the 'base' before testing for the -3dB point

Repeating the same type of measurement as neon416 - notable difference was using CH4 (just in case there is some HW differences between CH1) and HIGHER base frequency as well as LOWER input voltage

The 2nd round measurements I obtained were much better

Using CH4, 300MHz at 1Vrms, the -3dB point was reached at 498MHz - a significant improvement from the 415MHz when using 100MHz as base frequency.

See MSO5074 now 5354 with 300MHz 1Vrms input on CH4.png

and

MSO5074 now 5354 with 598MHz 708mVrms -3db point  on CH4.png


Also using a smaller input voltage

300MHz at 100 mVrms , the -3dB point was reached at 605MHz - again an improvement

see MSO5074 now 5354 with 300MHz 100mVrms input on CH4.png

and

MSO5074 now 5354 with 605MHz 71mVrms -3db point  on CH4.png



So what does all this mean?

1. If we use a higher 'base' frequency to do the -3dB test - we get better results
2. If we use a lower input voltage for the -3dB test - we get better results

Can someone please chime-in to explain the above observations, and perhaps define - if there is a detention - as to how to perform the -3dB bandwidth test - so that we can get some meaningful results that can be used as a good comparison to other scope measurements.

Thanks to neon416 for your input, at least we can now try to figure out the observations.

I also tried to reproduce similar input levels as neon416 and obtained similar results  :-\

see

MSO5074 now 5354 with 300MHz 167mVrms input on CH4.png
MSO5074 now 5354 with 611MHz 118mVrms -3db point  on CH4.png








 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #172 on: July 12, 2020, 12:34:48 am »
Interesting results
What type of signal generator you are use? I discouraged about some jitter or visual "aliases" on you pictures. Is it caused by signal quality or scope specific?

On over hand, rise time measurement of scope gives about 700ps. This provide 0.35/0.7 = 500 MHz bandwidth using common formula. I think it's more correct result.
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #173 on: July 12, 2020, 01:12:00 am »
Interesting results
What type of signal generator you are use? I discouraged about some jitter or visual "aliases" on you pictures. Is it caused by signal quality or scope specific?

On over hand, rise time measurement of scope gives about 700ps. This provide 0.35/0.7 = 500 MHz bandwidth using common formula. I think it's more correct result.

Rigol DSG815

I did not tune trigger - I am happy with the signal - my cable is not brilliant - but should handle the Freq (will check)

But despite the above - the -3dB readings still should be ok

Yes the 'rise time' measurement is a good confirmation - BUT, it still would be nice to fully understand why the -3dB points vary so much depending of base frequency (your refrence point Frequency) and to a smaller extend  - the input voltage level  :-\
 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #174 on: July 12, 2020, 05:50:06 am »
BUT, it still would be nice to fully understand why the -3dB points vary so much depending of base frequency (your refrence point Frequency) and to a smaller extend  - the input voltage level  :-\
Nothing strange)

Wavelength of you signal is comparable with cable length when you looking for hundred of megahertz. So this cable can significantly disturb frequency (and pulse) response if not fully terminated. But this oscilloscope have not dedicated 50 Ohm input mode so if you also terminate you cable near oscilloscope input by yourself you get not properly termination because of oscilloscope input capacitance (I measure it about 17pF).
You can also commit this by changing cable length or terminator resistance selection)

At second, this oscilloscope frontend gain may vary depending of gain range if far from characterized by factory (350 MHz) frequency. It's looks ugly, but every thing has its price))
 

Offline Verticon

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #175 on: July 12, 2020, 09:49:42 am »
Some quick results from my MSO5074 which I upgraded to a 5354. The measurements were made either with direct cable connection (1m of RG400) from the generator to the 50Ohms adaptor plugged on the scope or with measuring the signal with a detector after a power splitter just before the 50Ohms adaptor. The -3dB results vary primarily with the y-range settings of the Rigol and lie between 410 to 610MHz. Tendency wise the higher range settings seem to result in higher bandwiths.
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #176 on: July 12, 2020, 07:37:16 pm »
Both of the units we have exceed 460Mhz when using a 200Mhz sine wave at 2V pk<>pk the -3db is 1.41v at 460Mhz on one and 469Mhz on the other one, after calibration. Also using a Bodnar 40ps referencen is 755ps average 780ps peak
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 02:10:23 pm by Sighound36 »
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline seronday

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #177 on: July 12, 2020, 08:26:46 pm »
IHere is what I observed as some major differences, and before any judgement can be made - as I really don't know what the proper convention is and if these observations have any relevance, can someone with experience in -3db BW measurements PLEASE chime-in

My original measurements were at 1Vrms at 100MHz as the 'base' before testing for the -3dB point

When doing frequency response ( bandwidth ) tests, the frequency of the amplitude reference level needs to be in the flat part of the response before the roll off starts.

The frequency for the amplitude reference level is usually chosen to be in the range of 100Khz to 10Mhz.

In the performance verification guide for the MSO5000 series, Rigol specify using 1Mhz as the reference frequency for the "Bandwidth Test".


Regards.
 
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Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #178 on: July 12, 2020, 09:28:04 pm »

In the performance verification guide for the MSO5000 series, Rigol specify using 1Mhz as the reference frequency for the "Bandwidth Test".


Regards.

Great !

That's exactly what's required - will do some tests with the verification guide guidelines soon.

seronday - Thank You  :-+
 

Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #179 on: July 13, 2020, 01:55:45 am »

Hello All. I am a lifetime user of (mostly Tek) scopes (going back to the 70's). I need a home scope so I did my research (many thanks to Dave!) and I just received my MSO5074. It has many nice features, but a couple of problems cropped up right away:
1) Channel 2 seems to be the only one that gets 8GSa (If I am to believe the display at the top), while channel 1 gets 2GSa; the other two channels get 4GSa. This is for one active channel. Is this bug about the displayed sample size, or is it a "real" bug?

2) Channel 2 has a gain error - its about 25mV lower then the other channels. I have re-calibrated it several times to no avail. |O

Has anyone else seen these things? I may have to send it back (ugh!)  :-//

Respectfully,
Tony
 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #180 on: July 13, 2020, 12:57:57 pm »
1) Channel 2 seems to be the only one that gets 8GSa (If I am to believe the display at the top), while channel 1 gets 2GSa; the other two channels get 4GSa. This is for one active channel. Is this bug about the displayed sample size, or is it a "real" bug?
I gets the same strange behavior after updating from 01.01.04.08 to 00.01.03.00.01.
The only CH1 gets 8GSa. CH4 or CH1+CH4 gets 4GSa. All over combination gets only 3GSa.


UPD: SORRY for Rigol))) It's my mistake. Samplerate segmentation is also based on sync input selection. I.e. if you select synchronisation from any channel this channel become active even if disabled in channel mode menu.

 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 01:12:24 pm by neon416 »
 
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Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #181 on: July 15, 2020, 12:32:42 am »
neon416: I did not quite understand your message, but now I know what you meant. The triggered channel always gets the highest sample rate. Thanks! The manual does not make that clear at all.

Now, onto number 2):
The self-calibration process for this scope seems to be hit or miss. I have run it many times and channel 2 always is always off the most. I used GEN I to generate a square wave of  5Vp-p. I have tried using a BNC coax directly to each channel but have also used the probes at 1x to gate a live comparison of all at once. Attached are the results. Does anyone else get these results?
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #182 on: July 15, 2020, 03:38:01 pm »
You most likely heard the saying ‘you get what you pay for’ right?

Well it sure applies well to ‘test equipment’ accessories.

I recently purchased a Rigol MSO5074 (full review in progress) and was kindly ‘loaned’ a Rigol ADP0150BNC – an inline 50 ohm Termination from DC to 1GHz – from Telonic (my go to UK Rigol Distributor)

I also had a ‘Amazon’ P57 device – also claiming to be an inline ‘load resistor 50 ohm’ with bandwidth from DC to 1GHz

I took some photos of BOTH devices (see below)

Here are some notable differences;-

Rigol

The male BNC connection is machined on a lathe – you can see the fine one piece construction.

Quality of ‘gold’ connection pin and socket is very good – the socket has 4 stress release slots.

Perfect fit onto the factory Rigol probes

The unit comes with protective ‘condoms’ for both ends

Resistance measurement is precisely 50.0 ohms (at room temp at my bench)


Amazon P57

The male BNC connection is ‘cast’ – you can see the ‘seem’ in the middle.

The tolerance is poor (compared to the Rigol)

The Female BNC is covered with plastic molding – easier to grip and push-on and clamp as well as remove.
 
The metal BNC inside is also cast – not machined.

The quality of the pin and socket are not as good as the Rigol – the ‘gold’ socket 3 stress slots.

Resistance measurement is 49.8 ohms (same room temp measurement conditions and meter as Rigol test above)



Unfortunately I was unable to do accurate bandwidth tests with the SVA at this moment in time – as awaiting BNC to SMA connectors (see photo - arriving soon)

I will post the Bandwidth Response for each of the respective inline 50 ohm terminators as soon as possible.



Conclusion (so far - pending BW testing)

You certainly get what you pay for.

If you have already spend $1000 on the scope and probes – don’t try to save a few $$ on cheap 50 ohm terminators.

The Rigol ADP0150BNC is a perfect fit for anyone requiring precision connector with a 50 ohm impedance.



Thank You Telonic for the review sample (I will be purchasing this)


EDIT: I noticed that some images which were posted with the original 'post' - have disappeared - perhaps a moderator can alert DAVE or whoever looks after server - to check the software / database - I believe this has been happening to other members with various attachments - not just photos
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 04:02:12 pm by noreply »
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #183 on: July 15, 2020, 04:04:20 pm »
the missing photos from above post  ;)
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #184 on: July 16, 2020, 02:34:05 am »
Just been playing around with ‘single’ capture mode with the MSO 5350

I wanted to see how sensitive the input stage is to RF pulses.

I formed a loop with the ‘earth’ wire on the PVP2350 probe – a poor man’s inductive loop (see photo)

Then set-up the MSO CH1 to a 5mv per div Voltage and 5ms per div Frequency

Moved trigger level slightly above the reference of CH1  (see photo)

Then set ‘single’ capture

Now I placed the Car Key Fob on top of the earth-loop on probe – and momentarily pressed a Key Fob button

Voilà – the MSO captured my Key Fob data (see photo)


This is great !


I then looked at the data structure – a preamble, 3 data and 1 stop pulse

I am not an expert on the data structure that most manufacturers use for the Car Key Fobs
- but I guess it’s some form of Manchester encoding?

Despite the ‘poor-mans-inductive-loop’ capture mechanism
– the captured data is good enough to decode. (see photos)

If anyone is interested to repeat this experiment
– then make a better ‘loop’ to capture the stray RF from the Key Fob.


You can then use the MSO’s serial decoding
– to look at the data transmitted
– not sure if Manchester decoding is supported by Rigol or Siglent?
I know some Keysight MSO do definitely support this.

So there you are
– your MSO is a very handy tool
– you just need to learn how to apply it to various things lying around that you would like to measure
– like Car Key Fob’s in my example
 
BTW – it’s possible to store this waveform
– and then use this data
– to perform a ‘replay’
– using the either of the built-in AWG channels.

Simply connect a small antenna wire (preferably at ¼ wave of the transmitted freq) to the 50 ohm terminated BNC output of the AWG channel you used
– and ‘play’ the waveform
– your car
– if in range should open its doors. (EDIT: Oops .. probably not if it uses rolling code ...)

Any further improvements / refinements  and  experimentation with the above is most welcome!

Please report your findings here.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 02:38:25 am by noreply »
 

Offline dustooff

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #185 on: July 16, 2020, 05:19:35 am »
Pulsepowerguy, some shots from my unit, 1 month out of the box. Haven't done any cal yet, just adj probe comp so far.
The thing that I'm trying to resolve, is why do my traces have the fuzzies, source for these shots was the probe comp output.
...
 
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Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #186 on: July 16, 2020, 09:59:49 am »
Now, onto number 2):
I repeat you measurements and get Vtops:
1. 2.479
2. 2.496
3. 2.508
4. 2.487

The worst case difference is about 0.4%. I think its not bad result for this equipment class.
 
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Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #187 on: July 16, 2020, 11:41:24 am »
Pulsepowerguy, some shots from my unit, 1 month out of the box. Haven't done any cal yet, just adj probe comp so far.
The thing that I'm trying to resolve, is why do my traces have the fuzzies, source for these shots was the probe comp output.

Dustooff: Those look quite good, but how about at 2uS/div? I used the built-in signal generator for my shots. As to the fuzzies, did you use averaging?

Now, onto number 2):
I repeat you measurements and get Vtops:
1. 2.479
2. 2.496
3. 2.508
4. 2.487

The worst case difference is about 0.4%. I think its not bad result for this equipment class.


neon416: your measuremnts look great, but what time base did you use?

I am finding that the settling time varies greatly from channel to channel. Ch1 is very fast while ch2 is slowest. The Tech Manager at Rigol North America has offered to send a replacement unit.   :-+
Crossing my fingers.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 11:46:06 am by Pulsepowerguy »
 

Offline neon416

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #188 on: July 16, 2020, 12:26:13 pm »
Dustooff: Those look quite good, but how about at 2uS/div? I used the built-in signal generator for my shots. As to the fuzzies, did you use averaging?
All measurements made in same conditions as yours) On the same signal and oscilloscope settings. Without averaging.

Impulse response of channels looks slightly different in part of oscillations. But amplitude of that still stay within ~1%.
But rise time of channels looks very close.
 
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Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #189 on: July 16, 2020, 05:18:51 pm »


Conclusion (so far - pending BW testing)

You certainly get what you pay for.

If you have already spend $1000 on the scope and probes – don’t try to save a few $$ on cheap 50 ohm terminators.

The Rigol ADP0150BNC is a perfect fit for anyone requiring precision connector with a 50 ohm impedance.



Thank You Telonic for the review sample (I will be purchasing this)


EDIT: I noticed that some images which were posted with the original 'post' - have disappeared - perhaps a moderator can alert DAVE or whoever looks after server - to check the software / database - I believe this has been happening to other members with various attachments - not just photos

OK - I have received appropriate connectors for the SVA - so can perform some BW test now.

Guess what??

 |O

Looks like there is not much difference between the Rigol and the P57  :palm:

Obviously from a mechanical point of view - the Rigol is miles ahead - worthy of the extra $$

BUT

From a BW point of view - they are pretty much identical - at least to 1GHz

So perhaps - there is more to inline 50 ohm probe terminators
- at least at the sub 1GHz frequencies
- quality of mechanical construction and exact value of the termination resistance (at least within 0.5 of an ohm) does not seem to make much difference with regard to the BW capabilities of the device
- they both seem to have the same (approximately -3.6dB) attenuation @ 250 MHZ and (approximately -4.4dB) @ 500MHz

Please see the attached response plots below

Interesting finding for sure   :-\


BONUS FINDING:

In the process of doing the SVA screen captures - there is a 'bug' in the annotation software.

You can clearly see the 'plot' colors (yellow and purple)

However - the Annotation colors - I chose yellow and purple for these - to be identical - the purple annotation color AFTER SCREEN CAPTURE - turns into bright green color  :(

Perhaps someone with similar SVA and latest FW - can verify if getting same result?

If so - hope Siglent makes note to 'fix' in next FW revision 
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #190 on: July 16, 2020, 06:24:38 pm »
Once again - problem with attachments  |O

Here are the missing screenshots  :)
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #191 on: July 16, 2020, 08:18:11 pm »
Hello no reply

You have been a very  busy boy in the 6 weeks since joining with all these trails and investigations on Rigol and Siglent equipment, honestly do not know where you find the time to perform all of these tests and correlate the results with work and home life

Impressive throughput of small investigations,  envious of the amount of time you have for these tasks  :clap: great work ethic

One would seriously feel you would looking to take on Dave's mantle in the Europe possible even a UK pundit can you tell what next on the review agenda also what other projects  you are currently working on to the wee small hours.

With your ability to acquire respectable equipment almost at will I wonder if you are one of Tautech world wide secret squirrel network beavering away for the good of the T&E population  8)

Why not give a little background about yourself , work experiences and current projects pretty sure the guys would like some insight on what makes you tick and your ability to get the bit between your teeth.

With you superb work ethic I have to admit you do not strike me as a native Brit, simply as they would be down the pub  after the first  sideways step  :-DD

« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 09:47:14 am by Sighound36 »
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #192 on: July 17, 2020, 06:12:01 pm »
Hello no reply

You have been a very  busy boy in the 6 weeks since joining with all these trails and investigations on Rigol and Siglent equipment, honestly do not know where you find the time to perform all of these tests and correlate the results with work and home life

Impressive throughput of small investigations,  envious of the amount of time you have for these tasks  :clap: great work ethic

One would seriously feel you would looking to take on Dave's mantle in the Europe possible even a UK pundit can you tell what next on the review agenda also what other projects  you are currently working on to the wee small hours.

With your ability to acquire respectable equipment almost at will I wonder if you are one of Tautech world wide secret squirrel network beavering away for the good of the T&E population  8)

Why not give a little background about yourself , work experiences and current projects pretty sure the guys would like some insight on what makes you tick and your ability to get the bit between your teeth.

With you superb work ethic I have to admit you do not strike me as a native Brit, simply as they would be down the pub  after the first  sideways step  :-DD

Hey sighound36

Thank you for your kind words – not sure if this is a backhanded compliment or not – as I know you DO have a well-tempered sense of humor.

Yeah, I’m new to EEVblog as a registered member – but been browsing about for about 12 months.

I’m a victim of covid-19 (not medically – I’m fine I think?) as I am unable to continue with my normal work and am in essence working from home.

By doing this
– I can manage my own schedule
– and unfortunately have shifted my ‘day’ to ‘night’
– hence lurking and posting early morning UK time.


What do I do for living?

At the moment
– I am enjoying being semi-retired because of covid-19
– but I am a research scientist in microelectronics
– a bit of a mouthful , but it sounds good.

I have not been active in this field (I mean being at the cutting edge) for over 15 years, however I do projects and consult here and there
– usually by word-of-mouth introductions.


Why do I do investigations on Rigol and Siglent and perform all these tests whilst still having time for work and homelife?


Trying to be savvy with $$ and not having immediate ‘paying’ clients
– my choices in test equipment are limited to Rigol and Siglent, as are many other forum members on a budget.

Right now, I work from home and don’t have homelife (kids left nest) so decided to deplete my savings and finally treat myself to some ‘kit’ so I can rekindle some of my design aspirations I never could see through years ago.

I HAVE purchased ALL of the ‘kit’ I use from a UK distributor
– so no I am not part of Tautech’s secret squirrel network
– but if he does indeed have such a network
– I  am happy to ‘play’ with some new kit and write a review.


I have also taken member Elisia’s advice on how to best decide on which type of ‘kit’ to purchase
– especially when you really don’t know what is the best for your needs and don’t want to make the wrong decision.

Elisia suggested to ask your Test Equipment distributor
– to ‘test drive’ the kit you want to buy
– on a sale or return basis.

Fortunately my distributor was willing to do this with me :-+

I have committed to purchase an RF signal generator
– either a Rigol or a Siglent
– so they agreed for me to ‘test drive’ each instrument.

As a thank you for their willingness to do this for me, I offered to write an ‘as you go’ review on EEVblog
– so other members can possibly ‘see’ or have some further insights into these products
– possibly making their purchasing decisions easier.

Of cause
– if someone wants to buy a Rigol or Siglent product
– I would personally recommend my distributor (PM me if you are interested)
– but don’t want to overtly publicize sales related stuff in the forum posts.
 
Sorry but Tautech is already doing plenty of this
– so more from anyone else is not wise
– unless you are prepared to bring something to the table
– so every member here can benefit indirectly.


As far as Dave’s mantle in EU / UK
– this is not desired
– Dave does a great job already, and anybody who thinks it’s easy to do a decent review or teardown, they don’t know what’s involved for sure.
- Its bloody hard work!
– as Dave would say with his ‘OZ accent.


My superb work ethic?
 
Flattery will get you everything …

No , not really, I just feel bad if I got something I just did with my new ‘kit’ and after making some quick observations and screen shots
– for myself
– why not share it with others
– only takes a few minutes and indirectly documents your own findings for yourself as well.


Am I a native Brit?


Well, I don’t know what gave me away here
– but you caught me
– no not native
- although I have been here long enough to be passionate about politics and fight social injustices.
(Please don’t ask me about Boris – you I will have to start my rant …)



What’s on the upcoming review addenda?


Basically all the kit I have purchased
– so as I learn about the features and stuff you can do with these instruments, I like to make some presentations
– so everyone benefits.

Strong believer of pay-it-forward!

Hopefully will be reviewing SSG3021X soon (I need to either purchase DSG815 or the Siglent)

I have just received a GPSDO
– so will do a mini ‘review’
– great bit of ‘kit’
– in my opinion a must have device for any test lab.


Just got a replacement (Via Amazon) programmable digital attenuator
– there is a dedicated thread on this which I started
– my original was a DOA
– this second unit works
– but has broken switch
– so will complete this review soon.


Got the logic probe kit for Rigol MSO5074
– so will be doing ‘hands-on’ documentation as I discover its capabilities
– will start new thread for this.


I have also been given ‘on loan’ a Rigol DSK6K DemoBoard because I asked if I could borrow this and they said yes
(lesson to be learned – if you don’t ask , you don’t get opportunity to have)
– to have a baseline learning platform for the MSO5074 digital probes.

As I learn to use the logic probe kit myself
– I will document my ‘learning’ on a forum thread
– so others who are interested can view.


I also got a set of Sensepeek – PCBite probes
– a great bit of kit
– member Elisia has a set and using already, I still have not opened my box
– but it’s a important bit of kit for me
– as I want to test this probe kit for use with RF circuits.

I have RF amplifier with LPF on same PCB
– want to check the LPF frequency response by injecting RF signal (hence RF signal generator interest) with micro-probe and test response on SVA
– without powering the amplifier
– because the LPF is a passive component structure on the PCB.


If I am still ‘at home’ due to covid-19 after finishing all of the above stuff
– then I might also do some testing with the ADLM (Analog Devices Learning Module) Pluto SDR
– it is capable of doing some complex RF modulation
– so will synthesize a DVB-T  television signal
– and observe the spectral quality on the SVA
– nothing to prove
– just observations and deeper understanding on the use of the test equipment.


So, I hope the above has enlightened some of the members visiting this thread (I feel naked now) and at the same time quenched your thirst to know more about me and my activities on the EEVblog forum - more importantly, my mysterious endless supply of decent ‘kit’ , any secret association with tautech, aspiration to steal Dave’s mantle, and future projects have now been answered  :P

Sorry for the delayed response - I time shifted - my day starts at 3PM GMT - at least until I can get back to normal time - hopefully this weekend.

Cheers

EDIT:  Apologies for such a long - essentially 'off topic' post in this interesting thread - but I guess better than starting another thread instead  ;)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 09:30:42 pm by noreply »
 
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Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #193 on: July 17, 2020, 08:04:17 pm »
Most interesting post are always off topic ;)
 

Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #194 on: July 19, 2020, 09:57:28 am »
Quote
For all whose MSO5000 has over/undershoot. I have bought MSO5074, and from the beginning i had over/undershoot problem. I contacted Rigol support. They sent me all possible firmware versions and told me: make self calibration procedure for each firmware version we have sent to you. But nothing changed.

I decided to send my MSO to them. They have fixed over/undershoot problem, and calibrated the scope. They have also applied newest hardware fixes (also to built in signal generator).
They also changed HW version number to 1.01. I had 1.00 earlier.

matlipinski: What do your overshoots look like now at 50mV/div ?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 10:00:17 am by kehall »
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #195 on: July 20, 2020, 06:31:03 pm »
Has anyone made any x-y plots with the MSO5000 series?

I noted that in the old Rigol 1054z - there is an option to display the channel(s) - the x and y as well as the x-y Lissajous figure on the SAME screen.

With the MSO5074 - I can easily select the x-y plot mode (see screen capture below) - but cannot display the individual channels at the SAME time.

Am I missing something - in driving the MSO settings?

Or is this no longer possible with the MSO5000 series - but still remains on the DS1054z range?

Also, with regard to the x-y mode on the MSO5074 - is it possible to select the individual channels - again I could not see how - only CH1 and CH2 default to the x-y plotting?

If this IS the case - perhaps they could have at least chosen CH1 and CH3 (or CH2 or CH4) - to allow the full sampling speed of each channel  :-[


I'm using the MSO to perform some testing of the Rigol DSG815 - and how stable is its internal clock.

The MSO (or any scope) with x-p plot capability is an excellent tool for frequency comparison and drift calculations.

An easy way to do this is to 'dial-up' precisely 10.00000000 MHz on the 815 and then compare to the GPSDO which has been stabilized and disciplined the internal OCXO.

Interesting results ...

If you are interested to know how to do this and calculate the drift in the respective clock frequencies using the MSO then go to the

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsg815-testing-feedback-and-comments/msg3122450/#msg3122450

thread where I have posted the results and details of 'how-to' make such measurements  ;)

EDIT: confirmed posted results for above link
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 02:30:26 am by noreply »
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #196 on: July 20, 2020, 08:10:22 pm »

matlipinski: What do your overshoots look like now at 50mV/div ?

Hello kehall,

Thanks for your PM

I just did some testing as you requested
– to see how the ‘standard’ PVP2350 probes with the 1KHz (internal) calibration frequency response looks like.

First of all I made the following settings on the MSO

Acquisition settings:
Hires mode ON
Fine ON
Measure Settings:
Precession ON
BW was set to 20MHz (did not make any diff when I switched to FULL BW)

I switched on counter – for CH1

I set cursor mode to tracking – so you can see some measurements

I set 50mv/div for Vertical and made a -150mV offset – to fit the display

I set the time base to 3uSec / div for one plot and then again at 20uSec – so you can see both ‘close-up’ and slightly zoomed out.


See the attached screen captures below


I did not ‘touch’ my probes – or even do a ‘self-calibration’ on the MSO – so its literally out of the box.

I do have the latest FW and my 5074 is now a 5354 – but this should not make any difference at all!

I did not check CH3 and CH4 but suspect they would be similar results
– let me know if you want me to check?
(I have not even opened the 2nd packet of probes – so never checked as yet)

You will note that the CH2 plot is ‘on top’ of CH1 (the yellow plot)
– for pretty much all of the time
– there is a slight bleed through of the yellow
– but this does not bother me and not worth calibrating.

Hope the above test / results are helpful to you.

Good Luck with your experiments.

Don’t worry too much
– the MSO5000 is a great scope
– you will be able to sort it out
– or Rigol will help you if indeed the unit is not performing to specifications.





 

Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #197 on: July 21, 2020, 10:05:05 am »
I just did some testing as you requested
– to see how the ‘standard’ PVP2350 probes with the 1KHz (internal) calibration frequency response looks like.

See the attached screen captures below


Not sure what's going on with images, I'm not getting the pictures expected...

Anyway can't really see too well from thumbnails, but looks like no overshoots?

The probes won't make any difference to this concern, its more about the response of the scope (which compensation or self-cal can't fix). I could upload an image but not sure it'll work given everything. perhaps best link to dropbox...

ch1 and 2 50mV compensated... ch2 fine, ch1 overshooting

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pzda82cryolwhrx/2020-03-11%2015.14.18.jpg?dl=0

ch1 with compensation adjustment to try to remove overshoot

https://www.dropbox.com/s/el38jdvrrlb5olt/2020-03-11%2015.40.11.jpg?dl=0

So do you see anything like THAT? :)
 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #198 on: July 21, 2020, 07:54:14 pm »

At the moment
– I am enjoying being semi-retired because of covid-19
– but I am a research scientist in microelectronics
– a bit of a mouthful , but it sounds good.

I have not been active in this field (I mean being at the cutting edge) for over 15 years, however I do projects and consult here and there
– usually by word-of-mouth introductions.

Trying to be savvy with $$ and not having immediate ‘paying’ clients
– my choices in test equipment are limited to Rigol and Siglent, as are many other forum members on a budget.

Right now, I work from home and don’t have homelife (kids left nest) so decided to deplete my savings and finally treat myself to some ‘kit’ so I can rekindle some of my design aspirations I never could see through years ago.

I HAVE purchased ALL of the ‘kit’ I use from a UK distributor
– so no I am not part of Tautech’s secret squirrel network
– but if he does indeed have such a network
– I  am happy to ‘play’ with some new kit and write a review.

As far as Dave’s mantle in EU / UK
– this is not desired
– Dave does a great job already, and anybody who thinks it’s easy to do a decent review or teardown, they don’t know what’s involved for sure.
- Its bloody hard work!
– as Dave would say with his ‘OZ accent.

What’s on the upcoming review addenda?


Basically all the kit I have purchased
– so as I learn about the features and stuff you can do with these instruments, I like to make some presentations
– so everyone benefits.

Strong believer of pay-it-forward!

Hopefully will be reviewing SSG3021X soon (I need to either purchase DSG815 or the Siglent)

I have just received a GPSDO
– so will do a mini ‘review’
– great bit of ‘kit’
– in my opinion a must have device for any test lab.


Just got a replacement (Via Amazon) programmable digital attenuator
– there is a dedicated thread on this which I started
– my original was a DOA
– this second unit works
– but has broken switch
– so will complete this review soon.


Got the logic probe kit for Rigol MSO5074
– so will be doing ‘hands-on’ documentation as I discover its capabilities
– will start new thread for this.


I have also been given ‘on loan’ a Rigol DSK6K DemoBoard because I asked if I could borrow this and they said yes
(lesson to be learned – if you don’t ask , you don’t get opportunity to have)
– to have a baseline learning platform for the MSO5074 digital probes.

As I learn to use the logic probe kit myself
– I will document my ‘learning’ on a forum thread
– so others who are interested can view.


I also got a set of Sensepeek – PCBite probes
– a great bit of kit
– member Elisia has a set and using already, I still have not opened my box
– but it’s a important bit of kit for me
– as I want to test this probe kit for use with RF circuits.

I have RF amplifier with LPF on same PCB
– want to check the LPF frequency response by injecting RF signal (hence RF signal generator interest) with micro-probe and test response on SVA
– without powering the amplifier
– because the LPF is a passive component structure on the PCB.


If I am still ‘at home’ due to covid-19 after finishing all of the above stuff
– then I might also do some testing with the ADLM (Analog Devices Learning Module) Pluto SDR
– it is capable of doing some complex RF modulation
– so will synthesize a DVB-T  television signal
– and observe the spectral quality on the SVA
– nothing to prove
– just observations and deeper understanding on the use of the test equipment.


So, I hope the above has enlightened some of the members visiting this thread (I feel naked now) and at the same time quenched your thirst to know more about me and my activities on the EEVblog forum - more importantly, my mysterious endless supply of decent ‘kit’ , any secret association with tautech, aspiration to steal Dave’s mantle, and future projects have now been answered  :P

Sorry for the delayed response - I time shifted - my day starts at 3PM GMT - at least until I can get back to normal time - hopefully this weekend.

Cheers


Interesting results on terminations, thanks for sharing.

Have a similar background (advanced research in analog, RF, MW & RFIC design) and retired 3/1/2019. Trying to build up a home lab and looking into the Siglent & Rigol scopes, and maybe AWG and PS, so been monitoring posts relative to such.

This site and Dave's reviews are a great resource. Any advice on these instruments is welcome.

BTW developed a few home calibration devices (not NIST but moderate cost and flexible) for DVMs (need to calibrate a couple repaired 34401As against a new Keysight 34465A), these will be made available on here after the due Friday PCBs are assembled and tested.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #199 on: July 21, 2020, 08:33:56 pm »
I just did some testing as you requested
– to see how the ‘standard’ PVP2350 probes with the 1KHz (internal) calibration frequency response looks like.

See the attached screen captures below


Not sure what's going on with images, I'm not getting the pictures expected...

Anyway can't really see too well from thumbnails, but looks like no overshoots?

The probes won't make any difference to this concern, its more about the response of the scope (which compensation or self-cal can't fix). I could upload an image but not sure it'll work given everything. perhaps best link to dropbox...

ch1 and 2 50mV compensated... ch2 fine, ch1 overshooting

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pzda82cryolwhrx/2020-03-11%2015.14.18.jpg?dl=0

ch1 with compensation adjustment to try to remove overshoot

https://www.dropbox.com/s/el38jdvrrlb5olt/2020-03-11%2015.40.11.jpg?dl=0

So do you see anything like THAT? :)

Increase your time base to 20uSec and then to 3uSec and tell me if this improves your response - post a picture if you can - so we can compare like for like
 

Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #200 on: July 21, 2020, 10:18:16 pm »
Increase your time base to 20uSec and then to 3uSec and tell me if this improves your response - post a picture if you can - so we can compare like for like

I'm afraid the scope is in for repair so I can't do anything myself - can you please compare against my settings (top of trace will go off screen of course but only interested in whether you get overshoots like you could see on Ch1 in my screenshot) but they're claiming it as being 'normal' for such overshoots - I'm of the opposite opinion given ch2-3-4 on that screenshot was flat and fine, and I've had no issues with another unit, and also evidenced from what's been said earlier in this thread and other threads, just some more screenshots would really help.

To be honest I think all that's needed is the probe connecting to compensation output, 'default' and then 'auto' pressed, 10x and then twiddle vertical to 50mV or whatever to see if you get any overshooting like that on any of the 4 channels :/

Much appreciated
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #201 on: July 21, 2020, 11:08:26 pm »
Increase your time base to 20uSec and then to 3uSec and tell me if this improves your response - post a picture if you can - so we can compare like for like

I'm afraid the scope is in for repair so I can't do anything myself - can you please compare against my settings (top of trace will go off screen of course but only interested in whether you get overshoots like you could see on Ch1 in my screenshot) but they're claiming it as being 'normal' for such overshoots - I'm of the opposite opinion given ch2-3-4 on that screenshot was flat and fine, and I've had no issues with another unit, and also evidenced from what's been said earlier in this thread and other threads, just some more screenshots would really help.

To be honest I think all that's needed is the probe connecting to compensation output, 'default' and then 'auto' pressed, 10x and then twiddle vertical to 50mV or whatever to see if you get any overshooting like that on any of the 4 channels :/

Much appreciated

Do you remember EXACT configuration settings - each setting , like impedance , etc, etc

Basically - press the 'default' button (assuming this has not been redefined in any way), then make whatever settings you want - make notes and post here the settings you make after pressing the 'default' button.

I will copy EXACT and rerun the rests for you.

Also - please check the probe attenuation settings - what were they set to? 1x or 10x - need to know this of cause.

No problem doing this for you - just awaiting your feedback to the above  ;)

Cheers



 

Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #202 on: July 22, 2020, 06:13:40 am »
Kehall, if you are referring to the probe compensation issue (inability to remove overshoot/undershoot with test signal, no matter how you adjust the screw at the probe) it has been a known issue for 16 months.  It affects some scopes, but not others.  For a healthy unit, all four channel should look the same, with minimal overshoot/undershoot, your picture definitely show an issue with your unit.  I have no idea why Rigol would tell you the channel 1 behavior is normal, you should tell them that it is normal for you to return the scope for a full refund for defects like this.

Last year, there were rumors that newer firmware would correct the issue, but it was pretty clear that it did not address the problem for most people with the issue even with the newest firmware.  There were some successful attempts by replacing the ifcal.hex with a copy from a healthy scope, jump over to this set of discussion here to learn more: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2241315/#msg2241315

If it is a new scope, my suggestion is to send it back for a replacement, you should not have to fix something like this and the unit should have never passed QA.  If you have had it for a while (I believe all units should still be under warranty), I would send it back and let them deal with it.  Who knows, they may just change the mother board and you may get the 1.01 hardware and a fresh calibration. 

Hope this helps.
 

Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #203 on: July 22, 2020, 07:37:47 am »
Kehall, if you are referring to the probe compensation issue (inability to remove overshoot/undershoot with test signal, no matter how you adjust the screw at the probe) it has been a known issue for 16 months.  It affects some scopes, but not others.  For a healthy unit, all four channel should look the same, with minimal overshoot/undershoot, your picture definitely show an issue with your unit.  I have no idea why Rigol would tell you the channel 1 behavior is normal, you should tell them that it is normal for you to return the scope for a full refund for defects like this.

Thanks - ok I'll explain the whole story. The image with the overshoot on Ch1 was the first scope I received in March. I indeed had this replaced straightaway. The replacement I received had perfect response - all 4 channels looked like Ch2 on that image, no overshoots.

Only problem was there was a delayed fault with that scope which I didn't find until May (hadn't needed to use the scope in ernest until then), after half an hour or so of time in use the very bottom of the touchscreen would not respond, and worse, would randomly activate things at the bottom of the screen, changing settings by itself making it unusable.

This went back to Rigol for repair back in June... It came back with a new board (1.01) but all 4 channels then had the overshoot. Worse still, the touchscreen fault had not been repaired either!

It went back AGAIN a couple of weeks ago to be replaced by a factory brand new unit, I mentioned them to check the overshooting issue and they say that the new one has the same overshoots and that it's normal, and they say a Tektronix they found the same on??!??

I mentioned this thread, and the ifcal.hex (lfcal.hex?) stuff - they say that file didn’t come from their R&D and the overshoot / undershoot which was visible in the past with some devices were resolved with the firmware upgrades...

I don't think they're speaking to the right person in their R&D if so, they ought to know the scope!

They say it's normal (can't expect 50mV resolution on a 5v p-p signal?) and I can either have this replacement or a refund, very much Hobson's choice :(
 
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Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #204 on: July 22, 2020, 08:01:49 am »
Do you remember EXACT configuration settings - each setting , like impedance , etc, etc

Basically - press the 'default' button (assuming this has not been redefined in any way), then make whatever settings you want - make notes and post here the settings you make after pressing the 'default' button.

I will copy EXACT and rerun the rests for you.

Also - please check the probe attenuation settings - what were they set to? 1x or 10x - need to know this of cause.

No problem doing this for you - just awaiting your feedback to the above  ;)

To be honest if you have the overshoots I think you'd have said by now, but ok try this (from memory and photos):

Press Default
Connect Ch1 and Ch2 to probe compensation output, ground clip to ground (not that this should be needed)
Press Auto

probe set to 10x,

should get pretty much the display in the quick setup/manual @ 200us/500mV? something like this:

[attach=1]

set attenuation 10x just to correct the values at the bottom

now 'zoom in' on the vertical (timebase can stay same, its not really that relevant) to the bottom edge of the display to 50mV (bottom edge can stay centred on screen). Interested in what you see.

Thanks again
 

Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #205 on: July 22, 2020, 08:13:55 am »
If it is a new scope, my suggestion is to send it back for a replacement, you should not have to fix something like this and the unit should have never passed QA.  If you have had it for a while (I believe all units should still be under warranty), I would send it back and let them deal with it.  Who knows, they may just change the mother board and you may get the 1.01 hardware and a fresh calibration. 

This is what they claim is ok on the brand new unit and not 'something they see as a bug'...

[attach=1]

It is less of an overshoot but a significant overshoot all the same - BUT Ch 2,3,4 on the first unit I had and ALL 4 channels on the replacement were really nice and flat, so this feels wrong and what if I need to trust the display when checking higher frequencies than the in built 1Khz 5vp-p square probe compensation output, wouldn't take much for the overshoot to really get in the way?!

They say it doesn't overshoot as much on mV signals so it's ok and if I expect to get flat response at 50mV on 5v P-P maybe this scope is not for me?

Frustrated!

As you know self cal doesn't change anything but I think there should be a lower level calibration routine to build that lfcal.hex file that the service centre (and their R&D contact) doesn't know about.
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #206 on: July 22, 2020, 05:50:46 pm »
OK, I repeated the test - as per your instructions / settings

DS14 and 15 are at lower vertical resolution

DS25 and 26 are at higher vertical resolution

As you can see I offset the vertical slightly - so you can see the separate channel traces

Keep in mind - I DID NOT ADJUST THE PROBES in any way - to try to compensate - this is straight from the 'packet'

I don't use probes much - have direct BNC connections - that's why I never calibrated as yet.

The interesting thing is that the probes 'track' each other very well - considering they were not 'calibrated' my me.

If you want me to try to calibrate the probes for a better response - let me know.

Happy to help out.

 

Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #207 on: July 22, 2020, 06:07:42 pm »
I don't use the MSO5000 much these days and it is stashed away behind other equipment.  I can try to take some pictures when I have a chance.  But I can tell you this is not right, it should be nice and flat.

I don't know what type of overshoot is acceptable to Rigol, even my $30 scope does better with the test signal.  If I were you, I would not have accepted this as normal and put up with it, and I would have them keep replacing it until it is right.  If they can't, get a refund and buy something else.  Given the level of support you get from Rigol in the UK, I would shop other brands as there have been some pretty interesting new scopes out there.

I find it disheartening that they tried to convince you even a Tek does that and it was perfectly normal.  Either their support is clueless, or they treat their customers like they are clueless, neither is acceptable in my book.  Based on their latest arrogent response to you, I would just get a refund and buy a different brand. 
 
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Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #208 on: July 22, 2020, 06:23:31 pm »
@NoisyBoy

I just made some more tests - this time 'tuned' the probes - yes of cause you can reduce the overshoot - my probes were not calibrated

DS27 shows result after probe adjustment.

I offset the vertical in DS28 - so you can see the CH1- but its not 100% correctable - slight overshoot?

I then tried the SAME probes on CH3 and CH4 - see DS29

Then back to CH1 and CH2 - see DS31

The switching of the channels with the same probes - confirms that the probes are not the problem  :palm:

It appears that CH1 has something different internally - possible impedance mismatch - or not set 'spot-on' in factory calibration?

I don't know.

Personally it does not bother me as long as I can understand the reason for this behavior.

Why CH1 only?


Is there something specific with CH1?

Hope the above helps you out kehall - at least you now have an independent benchmark.

Let me know if there is anything else I can do?

Take Care

EDIT:

found way to delete the doubble image and correct
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 10:03:22 pm by noreply »
 
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Offline tv84

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #209 on: July 22, 2020, 07:24:03 pm »
EDIT:
Is there a way to edit / delete unwanted attachments?

:o Sure there is. You edit the msg and de-select the image.
 

Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #210 on: July 22, 2020, 08:43:55 pm »
I don't use the MSO5000 much these days and it is stashed away behind other equipment.  I can try to take some pictures when I have a chance.  But I can tell you this is not right, it should be nice and flat.

I don't know what type of overshoot is acceptable to Rigol, even my $30 scope does better with the test signal.  If I were you, I would not have accepted this as normal and put up with it, and I would have them keep replacing it until it is right.  If they can't, get a refund and buy something else.  Given the level of support you get from Rigol in the UK, I would shop other brands as there have been some pretty interesting new scopes out there.

I find it disheartening that they tried to convince you even a Tek does that and it was perfectly normal.  Either their support is clueless, or they treat their customers like they are clueless, neither is acceptable in my book.  Based on their latest arrogent response to you, I would just get a refund and buy a different brand.

Thanks... It is disappointing and frustrating as it seems like it otherwise is a very capable device...

Can this forum do polls I wonder, it'd be interesting to do a poll and find out who has good and bad units - its like there's someone on the production line thats get the factory calibration right and others don't care so much!

UPDATE: created poll: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso-5000-overshoot-or-not-overshoot/
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 09:55:07 pm by kehall »
 

Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #211 on: July 22, 2020, 09:04:41 pm »
Hope the above helps you out kehall - at least you now have an independent benchmark.

Let me know if there is anything else I can do?

Take Care

Thanks noreply - what firmware is this running please as the trace looks fairly thick - suggesting possibly before 1.1.4.8 (or you're in quite a noisy environment)?
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #212 on: July 22, 2020, 09:50:53 pm »
Hope the above helps you out kehall - at least you now have an independent benchmark.

Let me know if there is anything else I can do?

Take Care

Thanks noreply - what firmware is this running please as the trace looks fairly thick - suggesting possibly before 1.1.4.8 (or you're in quite a noisy environment)?

Pleasure to be of help - this is why we are all here - to help each other!

My firmware is 00.01.03.00.01
Hardware 01.01.000

Yeah, I do have a 'noisy' environment - but there is a lot of jitter / noise on the trace.

I have been to busy to check the latest FW updates

I use the MSO for RF design and frequency stability tests - so precise voltage readings not an issue for me - even to the extent I did not calibrate the probes until just now.

I will try to check why the 'noise' on the trace and update to the latest FW soon.

I presume - this was an issue before with earlier FW??

Also - as mentioned in earlier post - the overshoot problem is only on CH1 - did you experience similar?

If so, would be nice to see if there is some underlying reason for this - as if it happens in more than one device - there must be some HW or tweek that is common to all of the MSO5074's??

Take Care

 

Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #213 on: July 22, 2020, 10:05:29 pm »
I dug out the Rigol and did a few quick snapshots, I also tried to test a few other probes from other scopes to check the difference probes make:

In photo DS0, Ch1 and Ch2 are both with the 350MHz Rigol probes that came with the scope.
In photo DS1, Ch1 is the same, Ch2 is tested with a 500MHz probe from the LeCroy scope.
In photo DS2, Ch1 is the same, Ch3 is tested with a 500MHz probe from the Keysight scope.
In photo DS3, Ch1 is the same, Ch4 is tested with a 500MHz probe from the R&S scope.

The probe bandwidth and quality makes a difference, as you can see in the more square corners.  Both I don't see noticeable overshoot/undershoot as you had mentioned. 

I hope that helps.  I hope Rigol will do the right thing and correct the overshoot problem instead of telling you it is normal.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 10:14:44 pm by NoisyBoy »
 

Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #214 on: July 22, 2020, 10:12:58 pm »
I will try to check why the 'noise' on the trace and update to the latest FW soon.

I presume - this was an issue before with earlier FW??

Also - as mentioned in earlier post - the overshoot problem is only on CH1 - did you experience similar?

Thanks, yes I know there was a FW update which reduced the noise somewhat but looks like you're already ahead of that version anyway so probably the environment to a degree.

I wish there was a better X-Y mode resolution though (I know its a tricky process with digital sampling) but thats another topic.

My first unit bought March was the one with that overshoot on channel 1 only, which made it rather obvious. It was a 1.00 unit - I spent a bit of time trying various things but the supplier intervened and swapped with another. That one had flat, consistent response on all 4 channels, so I was happy until the touchscreen threw a wobbler after some time powered up.

It went back for repair in May (really should have been replacement then too as I believe was DOA, just undiscovered), but anyway the board got replaced rather than the screen, so it came back with the same screen fault and a new 1.01 board that then had overshoots on all 4 channels...

It's back in for repair now, and offered new replacement, but that has overshoots on all four too so I'm in the middle of trying to get that sorted before they send it me - I don't really want a refund, it doesn't really help anyone - I just want a working, consistent, trustworthy device, and if we can get this issue addressed it'll serve a greater purpose!

NoisyBoy, thank you for those images, that's a great help too. I'll point Rigol and my supplier at this thread again (and the poll if it gets any responses) :)
 

Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #215 on: July 22, 2020, 10:22:51 pm »
Kehall, if you are referring to the probe compensation issue (inability to remove overshoot/undershoot with test signal, no matter how you adjust the screw at the probe) it has been a known issue for 16 months. 

Noisyboy, The trimmers on the probes only affect the 10X setting. They have no effect in the 1x position which I think is to be expected.
 

Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #216 on: July 22, 2020, 10:30:09 pm »
Noreply, my channel 2 is not in agreement with the others (as I have shared on page 8 ), and it seems that several other folks have had similar experiences. I in the process of getting a replacement and will post results when I get it. Rigol NA support has been very good so far.

I am getting the impression that the calibration process at the factory is a bit spotty. There has been mention of a file that is responsible, but it is likely to be scope-specific and one version is not suitable for all scopes (obviously).
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 11:34:02 am by Pulsepowerguy »
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #217 on: July 22, 2020, 10:35:43 pm »

I wish there was a better X-Y mode resolution though (I know its a tricky process with digital sampling) but thats another topic.


Yeah - I found the same - BUT I guess my specific reason for using X-Y is to see the 'spinning circle' - where the 'spin' is under observation (the period) no the thickness of the trace.

I also posted earlier - if there is a way to display CH1 and CH2 while displaying the X-Y

This is possible on the 1054z - so unless I missed something in the menus - perhaps they remove this feature from the 5000 series??

 

Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #218 on: July 22, 2020, 10:58:28 pm »
Pulsepowerguy, agreed, the compensation were only done at 10X.  All my tests were done using the 10X setting on the Rigol probe, and 10X setting within the scope. 

For all the other probes I used in the test, they are all 10X only probes. 
 

Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #219 on: July 22, 2020, 11:00:30 pm »

I wish there was a better X-Y mode resolution though (I know its a tricky process with digital sampling) but thats another topic.


Yeah - I found the same - BUT I guess my specific reason for using X-Y is to see the 'spinning circle' - where the 'spin' is under observation (the period) no the thickness of the trace.

I also posted earlier - if there is a way to display CH1 and CH2 while displaying the X-Y

This is possible on the 1054z - so unless I missed something in the menus - perhaps they remove this feature from the 5000 series??

Hit the 'Acquire' button and then 'Time base mode' (XT, XY, Roll)
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #220 on: July 22, 2020, 11:48:45 pm »
Hit the 'Acquire' button and then 'Time base mode' (XT, XY, Roll)

Yeah .. this is correct - but it will put you the X-Y plot ONLY or the Time Base mode ONLY

What I am trying to do is display BOTH timebase - the CH1 and CH2 lots and 'below' this the X-Y plot

Like - take the DS32 and put DS33 below this image - to form one large image waveform containing BOTH plots at the SAME time

This IS possible on the 1052z

« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 11:52:32 pm by noreply »
 
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Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #221 on: July 22, 2020, 11:59:28 pm »
I wish there was a better X-Y mode resolution though (I know its a tricky process with digital sampling) but thats another topic.

Interesting - just trying to see 'why' digital sampling would have this inherent side-effect?
 

Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #222 on: July 23, 2020, 12:22:58 am »
Sorry, noreply. I misunderstood your question (as is usual for me).
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #223 on: July 23, 2020, 02:55:33 am »
Sorry, noreply. I misunderstood your question (as is usual for me).

No problem - was difficult to visualize from description.

I have attached a photo I managed to capture from YouTube -  as it shows exactly what I am asking about.

Much easier to understand
 

Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #224 on: July 23, 2020, 07:45:40 am »
I wish there was a better X-Y mode resolution though (I know its a tricky process with digital sampling) but thats another topic.

Interesting - just trying to see 'why' digital sampling would have this inherent side-effect?

The way I understand it - X-Y on a 'proper' analogue scope is easy as the signals literally drive the horiz and vertical amps and therefore the plates in the CRT, you can only have one 'spot width' at any one point on the screen.
A digital scope has to sample the signal voltages passing through an ADC, and then draw pixels. These samples are done thousands/millions/billions of times per second and plotted on the screen.
Noise levels (externally, and within the scope) mean that these samples can vary 'wildly' and therefore you see the square rather than a single point you see when XY is on a digital scope.

Averaging or some other filtering should really help but it doesn't look like the MSO5000 has this right yet, and worse still, this noise seems to occur irrespective of any adjustments to attenuation/amplification, as you can see in these two images (of the same signal, two sine waves from in-built generator one slightly higher frequency than the other so you have a bit of a slowly 'rotating/flipping' circle showing phase change).

The 2nd image is just the same but at 100V/div, and you see the trace 'width' doesn't change. :( The display is suggesting there’s around 20-25V of noise on a 5V amplitude signal which clearly cannot be!
 
[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 06:15:47 pm by kehall »
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #225 on: July 24, 2020, 09:58:16 pm »
Thanks for the nice 'explanation' it certainly makes sense.

Yeah, I remember the 'crisp and bright' Lissajous figures on the CRT

But those old CRT scopes - compared to the MSO5000 -  were true dinosaurs - not only big and heavy but not so clever at the same time  :P

BTW

I also came across a YT video from which I 'lifted a frame' - clearly showing that even an 'old' R&S scope is able to do better job with X-Y - it look much crispier than the Rigol - but at a much higher price.

I guess for my immediate needs - the use of the Rigol's X-Y is 'good enough' for me.

Perhaps someone could 'chime-in' with a screen shot from the Siglent 2104X Plus in X-Y mode with a spinning circle?

I'm thinking it will be same as Rigol   ;)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 01:01:57 am by noreply »
 

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #226 on: July 25, 2020, 02:12:20 am »

Perhaps someone could 'chime-in' with a screen shot from the Siglent 2104X Plus in X-Y mode with a spinning circle?

Nice video of a pre-release unit doing X-Y for you to download here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2787208/#msg2787208
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #227 on: July 25, 2020, 03:45:00 am »

Perhaps someone could 'chime-in' with a screen shot from the Siglent 2104X Plus in X-Y mode with a spinning circle?

Nice video of a pre-release unit doing X-Y for you to download here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2787208/#msg2787208


Interesting...

That was back in 2919

Any chance of getting a 2000x Plus and doing the following;-

Get a 10MHz Sine 500mv signal - out of the AWG on the 2000x and connect to CH1 on the 2000x

Get another 10MHz Sine 500mv signal - from another source and connect to CH2 on the 2000x

Then select X-Y mode on the 2000x

You should see a circle

If the circle is not moving - the two 10MHz frequency sources should be 'in sync'

Take a screen shot and post here

Thank You :-+

Its probably unlikely that the circle is perfectly 'still' and not moving - because the respective independent 10Mhz clocks will be drifting.

If CH1 source is from a GPSDO - stabilized and locked to GPS signal - you should have (if you have a well disciplined clock) at least 10E-12 accuracy.

That's 0.000001Hz  accuracy  :popcorn:

Now you can use this 10MHz signal to calibrate all the other equipment in the lab  ;)

Get your other 10MHz signal - from the device being calibrated is connected and connect to CH2 on the 2000x

Put 2000x in X-Y mode

Circle will most likely be spinning.

Adjust the frequency on the source connected to CH2 (the device you are calibrating) - until the circle is virtually frozen i.e not moving.

Unfortunately the circle will still be moving very slightly.

Write down the frequency shown on the source connected to CH2

Note the last significant digit.

It should be at least 0.01Hz - if you have a good frequency source.

Now look at the circle and get a stop watch.

Start the stopwatch and time 'in seconds' - how long it takes for the circle to rotate 2 times.

The circle actually rotates 360 degrees - because we see it in 2D on the 2000x screen - we need to have 2 x 180 degree spins.

Write down the number of seconds and now divide 1 by the number of seconds.

Hopefully you will get a small fraction - something like 0.004567 - as an example.

Now you can ADD this number to the least significant figures you recorded earlier for frequency of CH2 source.

For example if the least significant figures were  0.01Hz - then adding 0.004567 will yield 0.014567 Hz

Now you will have CH2 calibrated to 'atomic time' accuracy and the frequency will be 10.000 000 014567 Hz

Hope the above procedure is useful for anyone wanting to calibrate CH2 frequency to the CH1 reference (as used in the above example  :)





 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #228 on: July 25, 2020, 09:22:28 am »
Kehall,

If the sellers of the scope won't refund your money and you paid with a credit card, or even a debit card that has a VISA or MC logo on it, you can use that to get sorted out.  Call your card company and simply tell them that you purchased with their card and the vendor won't refund for a defective item that's been back several times for repair and ask them to raise a claim; they will probably put you onto VISA or MC.

If you pursue this avenue, you may well end up with a refund without having to return the scope.

In the UK there is also buyer protection law that says that an item sold has to be of "merchantable quality" meaning it has to perform the designed function properly.

I like my MSO5000 but the first one I got was hw 1.0 after I'd specifically stated that I wanted a new unit on my order through Tequipment.net.  They (Tequipment.net) got be a brand new scope (hw vn 1.1) and sent me a free shipping RMA for the return of the first one.

Good luck.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 
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Offline kehall

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #229 on: July 25, 2020, 10:39:06 am »
Kehall,

If the sellers of the scope won't refund your money and you paid with a credit card, or even a debit card that has a VISA or MC logo on it, you can use that to get sorted out.  Call your card company and simply tell them that you purchased with their card and the vendor won't refund for a defective item that's been back several times for repair and ask them to raise a claim; they will probably put you onto VISA or MC.

If you pursue this avenue, you may well end up with a refund without having to return the scope.

In the UK there is also buyer protection law that says that an item sold has to be of "merchantable quality" meaning it has to perform the designed function properly.

I like my MSO5000 but the first one I got was hw 1.0 after I'd specifically stated that I wanted a new unit on my order through Tequipment.net.  They (Tequipment.net) got be a brand new scope (hw vn 1.1) and sent me a free shipping RMA for the return of the first one.

Good luck.
Thanks, the refund has been offered and the dealer is not being an issue, the new scope they will supply has overshoots though and the service centre isn't really believing it isn't 'normal' as unfortunately the other scopes they have had the same problem and they're not speaking the right people at the R&D/factory as they claim to know nothing about the 'lfcal.hex' file :-DD

Hence the poll I created to help evidence the fact that it is NOT normal and they need to get to the bottom of it...

Do me a favour please and lodge your 'vote' here :) https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso-5000-overshoot-or-not-overshoot/

I'm happy with the scope if I can get a good one, but that's the problem, I have the worst luck when it comes to things like this so even the brand new 'factory fresh' replacement they offered is 'bad'...
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #230 on: August 13, 2020, 05:46:53 pm »
Hello,

Has anyone ever tried to loop TRIG OUT to EXT TRIG?

I tried this to engage the totalizer on EXT TRIG but it doesn't work.
I checked my TRIG OUT signal and it's OK.
I checked my EXT TRIG input and the totalizer function with my AWG and it's OK.
I checked my cable and it's OK.

The only thing I haven't checked is the TRIG OUT signal level.

Any ideas ?  (I have a MSO7000 but I guess the implementation is the same )

Thank you  :)
 

Offline Testtech

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #231 on: August 13, 2020, 08:38:40 pm »
UPDATE:

Thanks for the input, I am aware of you points, I tried 3 other signal sources with the same result.
I contacted Rigol Tech Support, and after discussion, an RMA was issued and the instrument shipped back today for replacement.

I will advise when the replacement arrives.

Greetings,

I have encountered an issue with my MSO5204 where a high frequency sinewave shows what I am calling artifacts, for lack of a better term.
Please see the pictures.
The "artifacts" can be changed by slightly varying the frequency, or can be made to disappear by turning on another channel. Also, changing the depth from AUTO to a much higher value will seem to make it disappear. It is apparent without the Color Grading on, but is easier to see in Color Graded mode.
These are most easily seen at higher frequency, and yes, I have tried several other sine sources, and all present the same.

Has anyone else encountered this? Perhaps someone can try this with their instrument and see if it does something similar
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 11:03:41 pm by Testtech »
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #232 on: August 13, 2020, 09:24:59 pm »
Greetings,
I have encountered an issue with my MSO5204 where a high frequency sinewave shows what I am calling artifacts, for lack of a better term.

Sure ... happy to check this out for you  :)

BUT

Before you go any further - can you please provide more details on your high frequency sinewave like ;-

1. What is the source of the sinewave
2. Have you checked the signal - is it clean?
3. Perhaps your source has the mysterious 'artifacts'


If you have a 'dodgy' source signal - the MSO will be doing its 'job' to detect the 'artifacts'

By varying the source frequency - and the artifacts disappear is a good clue that the source is generating the 'artifacts'

By changing input channels (depending on which one you use)

- this also will / may reduce the MSO's sampling rate

- hence the 'artifacts' disappear

- from your 'plots' this CAN BE CONFIRMED

- because CH2 has reduced sampling (shares ADC) and CH3 is same as CH1

- so its expected to 'see' the 'artifacts' on CH1 AND CH3 - if its really there - but not on CH2 - so your MSO is behaving as expected



You need to get a verified and 'clean' Source to do MSO waveform 'artifacts' debugging - otherwise the MSO might be doing its 'job' and reporting the 'artifacts' because they are really there  :popcorn:


If you are still having problems after checking your sine source

- then please give me your EXACT MSO parameters you used for your measurement (best way is to press the 'default' button first - then record all the settings you make)

- also the sine source frequency / amplitude
 

Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #233 on: August 13, 2020, 10:05:41 pm »
Greetings All,
I received my replacement MSO5074 this week and updated to the latest firmware, calibrated, etc.. Here are some new measurements. As before (see my post on page 8 ) all four probes are at 1X and connected to AWG I output (set to 100kHz and 5Vp-p). As can be seen, the four channels are much closer in agreement than with my first scope. This is a big improvement. Interestingly though, they are not quite the same at the 200nS area. Ch1 and Ch4 are in very close agreement so they may have to be my go-to channels. This, I suppose, is what $1k buys and I should accept it and move on. Any thoughts?
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #234 on: August 13, 2020, 10:40:48 pm »
@Pulsepowerguy

First of all - hope that your new MSO meets your expectations  :)

Please don't dismiss the capabilities of this nice bit of 'kit' - even if its in the $1K range - it will blow much higher priced devices out of the water.

My first suggestion to you is to do your testing again - but this time - see if you can 'borrow' some 500MHz 'expensive' probes.

My gut feeling is that the current problems you are having are related to your probes rather than the MSO itself.

The MSO can handle without problems 400MHZ+ which is great.

The supplied probes are rated to 350MHZ - but these are 'cheap' probes - mainly intended for low frequency work - despite their rating.

There are significant 'clues' in your plots that - at least at 1st step in your quest to get the response you are expecting - indicating potential probe issues.

The rising edges and trailing on your plots seem to be fine and are all 'in tune' with each other.

Your problems appear with the 'overshoots' - an area which closely correlates to probes and their inherent ability to handle these signals.

So, before you start to  |O - just try things out with the 'best' highest specification probes you can get your hands on and see how the MSO behaves

After checking out your probes, if you are still having identical issues - we can then try to see what might be causing this   :)

BTW

A quick test (but not 100% conclusive) is to switch probes with the different channels - and see if the plots 'follow the probes' - if it does that's a big clue  ;)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 11:11:04 pm by noreply »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #235 on: August 13, 2020, 11:20:19 pm »
Greetings All,
I received my replacement MSO5074 this week and updated to the latest firmware, calibrated, etc.. Here are some new measurements. As before (see my post on page 8 ) all four probes are at 1X and connected to AWG I output (set to 100kHz and 5Vp-p). As can be seen, the four channels are much closer in agreement than with my first scope. This is a big improvement. Interestingly though, they are not quite the same at the 200nS area. Ch1 and Ch4 are in very close agreement so they may have to be my go-to channels. This, I suppose, is what $1k buys and I should accept it and move on. Any thoughts?

 

Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #236 on: August 13, 2020, 11:53:05 pm »
@Pulsepowerguy

A quick test (but not 100% conclusive) is to switch probes with the different channels - and see if the plots 'follow the probes' - if it does that's a big clue  ;)

Sorry. I neglected to mention that I swapped the probes every which way and nothing changes, so the probes are not the issue as far as channel to channel differences go.

I really like many things about the scope - this one is definitely better than the last one - I just get the impression that this is the best it gets for the money. I have been a Tek user for my entire 40 year engineering career and I never thought I could afford a decent scope for my home. From what I can tell on this forum, the factory calibration of this scope has a degree of variability from unit to unit (and from channel to channel in my sample of two machines). That is a pity, as I would go to great lengths to tune this thing if I could.
 

Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #237 on: August 14, 2020, 01:02:43 am »
Well, well. I happen to have a Probemaster 500Mhz probe and a Tek P6139B. Below are all three (one at a time, plugged directly into AWG I) - all three were tuned for the scope and note that the Rigol probe is now at 10X. Interesting how the Rigol has the least overshoot, and the Probemaster the greatest. These overshoots are not tunable as the trimming cap only affects the relatively long time behavior. I kinda like the Tek probe's behavior the best.

All of these traces look a lot cleaner because I no longer am trying to compare channels so the connection to the generator is very short.
 

Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #238 on: August 14, 2020, 01:05:27 am »
...and here are the same three probes looking at the same output, but plugged into a TEK DPO3034 (all probes re-tuned for it). Interesting.
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #239 on: August 14, 2020, 01:06:32 am »
... all four probes are at 1X ...

Like I said - your MAIN problem is in the probes - see video Dave made (thanks @Howardlong) posted above.

Swapping probes as suggested and like you did only confirms that ALL probes exhibit identical behavior - it is not conclusive that your problem is not probe related.



First of all CH1 and CH4 - your best channels are using different ADC's as the MSO has 2 of these shared between the 4 channels.

CH1 and CH2 if used simultaneously will be lower sampling hence BW capability than if you used CH1 and CH3 or CH2 and CH4 - in effect to have a dedicated ADC per channel.



So don't expect to have SAME performance across ALL channels at the same time when pushing the BW / sampling rate.


It would still be very interesting - if you are able to get hold of much better probes which are rated WELL ABOVE the MSO specifications - I suspect you will get a much better response.

For now - try to run the test again but compare only CH1 to CH3 OR CH2 to CH4 - set your probes to x10 when you do this - see what happens ?

*** If you can try a direct coax connection to CH1 from sig gen and to CH3 from sig gen and compare this - make sure the COAX is appropriately terminated.

EDIT:

SORRY - I think our posts crossed
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 01:12:13 am by noreply »
 
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Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #240 on: August 14, 2020, 01:37:22 am »
Here are the two scopes looking at AWG I with a bit of coax - no probes. ARgh! I noticed that the tek bandwidth was set to 20MHz for the previous captures.  :palm: This time it is set to full (350MHz). Also, I don't have a terminator for the Rigol scope so left the TEK input at 1Meg. Take that into account.

NOREPLY: I do not agree that the sharing of the digitizers is involved here. I maintain that this is a "front end" issue, where each channel's signal conditioning is noticeably different. I turned off all but one channel and the response was indiscernible from that with all four channels active.

I would really like to see the behavior of the 350MHz version of this scope.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 01:45:19 am by Pulsepowerguy »
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #241 on: August 14, 2020, 03:29:08 am »
@Pulsepowerguy

Thanks for your feedback :)

Also for doing some more testing.

I did notice that your source frequency was set to 100KHz - if this is still the case than the ADC sampling should not be an issue.

My comment(s) about the channels and the 2 ADC shared between 4  channels was just to alert you (just in case you were not) that all channels are NOT identical with regard to sampling - and calibration - as you most likely know now.

I am happy to 'run' your tests on my MSO - which has been enhanced to 350MHz

PLEASE let me know your exact settings - AFTER you perform a reset to the default settings (press the default button) and them let me know precisely what settings you make - step by step - including your AWG setup.

I will reproduce this - and we will see how the two MSO's compare.

Its really late here in London - so I need to get some  :=\ just now.

I wanted to quickly post this message - so you can let me know your setup - this way when you are catching some  :=\ , i'll run the tests  :popcorn:

Take Care for now  :)
 
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Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #242 on: August 14, 2020, 06:56:02 am »
Hello,

Has anyone ever tried to loop TRIG OUT to EXT TRIG?

I tried this to engage the totalizer on EXT TRIG but it doesn't work.
I checked my TRIG OUT signal and it's OK.
I checked my EXT TRIG input and the totalizer function with my AWG and it's OK.
I checked my cable and it's OK.

The only thing I haven't checked is the TRIG OUT signal level.

Any ideas ?  (I have a MSO7000 but I guess the implementation is the same )

Thank you  :)

Just checked and there is no EXT TRIG input on the MSO5000  >:D   :palm:
I will try on the MSO7000 desert topic !
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #243 on: August 14, 2020, 01:31:15 pm »
Here are the two scopes looking at AWG I with a bit of coax - no probes. ARgh! I noticed that the tek bandwidth was set to 20MHz for the previous captures.  :palm: This time it is set to full (350MHz). Also, I don't have a terminator for the Rigol scope so left the TEK input at 1Meg. Take that into account.

NOREPLY: I do not agree that the sharing of the digitizers is involved here. I maintain that this is a "front end" issue, where each channel's signal conditioning is noticeably different. I turned off all but one channel and the response was indiscernible from that with all four channels active.

I would really like to see the behavior of the 350MHz version of this scope.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but are you sure you're not over driving the channel inputs? a lot of the trace isn't displayed.

If it's a Hi-Z input that leaves the source unterminated. I'm not sure you can draw many conclusions from that.

I'm now not sure what it is you're trying to show?

If it's that the channels behave differently when you're over driving them or not terminating the source, then I'm not sure now what the complaint is?
 

Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #244 on: August 14, 2020, 03:07:01 pm »
Quote from: Howardlong on Today at 01:31:15 pm

If it's that the channels behave differently when you're over driving them or not terminating the source, then I'm not sure now what the complaint is?


I agree with you on several points - over driving the inputs eventually leads to problems, but there is a level at which the signal can exceed the vertical boundaries without distortion and that can be discerned by switching the range while looking at the response. Both the Rigol and the Tek scopes appear to be working well with a setting of 100mV/div and 2.5V offset to look at a 5Vp-p square wave (but of course I could be mistaken). The source really should be terminated at 50 \$\Omega\$ , so my measurements have the nasty spike on the leading edge (I have no termintator at home, but will work on that). Still the comparison seems valid.

My concern has been with the variance from channel to channel, and this newer scope is much much better than the first one I received. I guess you could say that I am in the validation phase of the purchase - I am coming to terms with the behavior of this scope while learning of its limitations. It is definitely a good piece of gear for the price.

Update: I wised up and added two, 100 Ohm, 1/4W resistors to the end of my bit of coax (shortest possible connection for low inductance) and reconnected all of the Rigol Probes (set to 10X) to the resistors. See attached. The match up is, in fact, better looking now.  :-+
I appreciate everyone's feedback BTW.  :clap:

@noreply, I would still like to see your results. Please don't stay up so late just for this though.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 08:55:47 pm by Pulsepowerguy »
 

Offline noreply

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #245 on: August 16, 2020, 03:05:13 pm »
@noreply, I would still like to see your results. Please don't stay up so late just for this though.  ;)

Please provide EXACT MSO configuration / settings - so I can reproduce SAME conditions here & do the testing.



 
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Offline Pulsepowerguy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #246 on: August 16, 2020, 05:08:55 pm »
@noreply I think the attached setup file will work. After loading it myself I had to activate AWG I, but it then duplicated my setup exactly.
The external setup is:
~8" coax with BNC on one end (connected to AWG I) while the other end is terminated with 2, 100 Ohm resistors (shortest possible leads). Ch1 is connected to these resistors with a very short (imperfect, I know) BNC to alligator clip adapter. Ch2 is a TEK probe, Ch3 is a Rigol probe, and Ch4 is a ProbeMaster probe. The photo shows this mess.
 

Offline Howardlong

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