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Offline WinnieThePooh

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REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« on: June 17, 2019, 10:14:18 am »
Hello community!

In this post I’d like to tell about my impression and testing results of Rigol MSO5074 oscilloscope.

Testing methods are based on Altemir’s post REVIEW - Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc.... Some results to compare with were also taken from his post.
After weekly testing I’ve written a little report for Rigol’s local distributor on Russian language. Some most significant bugs are listed below with a little description.
Please let me know if you found other problems.


Known Firmware Bugs/Issues
(red indicates latest FW version available, italic indicates requires for testing - please, inform me about results)


1. Low contrast, bad viewing angles of screen. It’s also not very bright. Seems to be Rigol scope’s family bug
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

2. Backlight of buttons is not bright enough (especially on 1’st channel button)
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

3. Colors on screenshots are very, very different from what you see on screen
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

4. Windows on screen (DVM and Counter for example) are all different in size and don’t stick to each other, so it’s difficult to arrange them.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

5. Selected trigger mode has a very little indicator; single mode doesn’t indicate at all. Selected mode isn’t shown in trigger menu.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

6. In Dots mode you don’t see dots; even at small time base (2 ns) dots are connected with lines.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

7. In High Res mode signal is not less noisy then in usual Sample mode, although vertical resolution is higher
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

8. New measurement is added on the left and moves all other measurements to the right.  It would be more convenient if it adds on the left of others
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

9. You can select a separate measurement but you can only DELETE it and can’t change nothing else (source, measurement type). Measurement selection is almost invisible.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

10. There is no user-defined probe ratio – only pre-defined values. Thus it’s difficult to measure current on sense resistor.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

11. Strange behavior. Advertisement says it has more than 500 000 wfrm/s update rate. That’s true, but ONLY in single ch., 10ns time base mode (with AUTO memory mode).  Update rate dependence on time base and active channels’ number  looks very strange – for example, with 1 active channel and 20 ns time base you have 12 000 wfrm/s, but with 2 active channels and 20 ns time base you have 310 000 wfrm/s. (see update rate testing results below)
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]


12. With time base more than 20 ms, update rate is higher with 200 MPoints memory selected then with 1 kPoints. (see update rate testing results below)
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

13. In AUTO memory mode scope don’t use more than 25 MPoints, although available memory is 200 MPoints.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

14. The way the scope collect data looks strange: packets of samples, separated by a long pause. Pauses between packets take up to 87% of all blind time. For comparison, Rigol MSO4000 collects data in series, sample by sample, without any packets.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]
Rigol MSO5000

Rigol MSO4000


15. No internal 50 Ohm termination, though there is an inactive setting in channel menu.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

16. Offset about 250 uV with external 50 termination connected. Without termination (open input) – just 50 uV
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

17. Scope saves waveform only in *.bin or *.csv, but loads just *.wfm – you can’t load saved waveforms.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

18. No frequency and magnitude axes in FFT mode
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

19. Scope has Eye Analysis and Jitter functions in Measure menu, but they are not mentioned in manual and seem non-working
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

20. Color Grade function is VERY dependent on waveform’s Intensity setting (display>intensity). At maximum intensity you’ll see all white waveform, at minimum – all black, actually without any color difference.  This feature is not mentioned in manual.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

21. Waveform Freeze function seems not working, and I don’t know what it should do.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

22. SCPI command ':LA:TCALibrate' doesn't do anything. This is something that should be a menu option on the scope, so maybe its not been implemented yet.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

Code: [Select]
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000
:LA:TCAL 0.000000100
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000

:channel1:tcal 0.000000100 for example, works OK


Testing results
1. System info



2. Acquisition - all with open input, 1ms time base
2.1 Normal mode

2.2 HighRes mode. Signal isn't less noisy then in Normal mode (bug #7).

2.3 Average mode, 256 averages


3. Waveform update rate
3.1 Sample rates

3.2 Waveform update rate. Input signal - sin 10 MHz 1 Vp-p


MSO 4000 results:

3.3 Waveform update rate. Input signal - sin 1 MHz 1 Vp-p


MSO 4000 results:

Tests 3.2 and 3.3 is a good illustration of bug #11. Scope has maximum update only in certain time base (10ns in 1ch mode, 20ns in half ch mode, 50ns in all ch mode). MSO4000 results is much linear and smooth, without unexpected peaks.

3.4 Blind time

3.5 As mentioned in bug #14, scope has strange acquisition mode - packets of samples, separated by a long pause. Duration of each phase of acquisition cycle was measured at different time base.


4. Frequency response
4.1 With and without correction of measuring path. Average value

4.2 With correction. For each channel separately

4.3 Comparison with other scopes

4.4 -3dB frequency in HighRes mode



edit 1. Added bug#22, thanks to thm_w
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 08:29:07 am by WinnieThePooh »
 
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Offline WinnieThePooh

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2019, 11:02:36 am »
All tests results and report (only in Russian, sorry)
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2019, 09:18:13 pm »
Very comprehensive report!

I noticed the same odd thing with the packets of samples. If you turn on zone triggering, I saw it change to more consistent sampling and the dead time was reduced (more spread out I guess), seemingly regardless of whether it was hitting the signal. But maybe there was some other reason for it, related to my triggering.
Now I'm checking wfm/s and zone triggering doesn't seem to effect that much (reduces it about 10%). No difference between 1 zone or 2 zones.

There are definitely oddities to how this scope works, whether due to the ASIC and its functionality or software bugs, not sure.


Quote
19. Scope has Eye Analysis and Jitter functions in Measure menu, but they are not mentioned in manual and seem non-working

Yes someone here even reported it to Rigol tech support, that their non-paid for feature is not working  ;D
edit: looks like you did the same thing, hopefully they don't mind. But thanks for passing all this on.

Quote
15. No internal 50 Ohm termination, though there is an inactive setting in channel menu.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

This is normal, sort of a placeholder and to tell you the input impedance. In the case of DS2000->DS2000A they added a 50 ohm option to later hardware, they may or may not do this with the MSO5000. Usually its a good way to differentiate the low/high end models. A generic BNC pass through is only ~$6.

Quote
20. Color Grade function is VERY dependent on waveform’s Intensity setting (display>intensity). At maximum intensity you’ll see all white waveform, at minimum – all black, actually without any color difference.  This feature is not mentioned in manual.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

I think you should just set it to 50% for color grading (or set auto to that). But it would be nice if changing this did something like change the color pattern or similar.

Bug 22.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04]
SCPI command ':LA:TCALibrate' doesn't do anything. This is something that should be a menu option on the scope, so maybe its not been implemented yet.

Code: [Select]
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000
:LA:TCAL 0.000000100
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000

:channel1:tcal 0.000000100 for example, works OK
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 10:22:56 pm by thm_w »
 
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Offline WinnieThePooh

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2019, 07:53:22 am »
I noticed the same odd thing with the packets of samples. If you turn on zone triggering, I saw it change to more consistent sampling and the dead time was reduced (more spread out I guess), seemingly regardless of whether it was hitting the signal. But maybe there was some other reason for it, related to my triggering.
Now I'm checking wfm/s and zone triggering doesn't seem to effect that much (reduces it about 10%). No difference between 1 zone or 2 zones.

Just checked zone triggering, and noticed another couple of odd things.

1 When zone triggering is active, there is no 500 000 wfms/s peak. Just 90 000 wfms/s - looks much more linear

2 If you create a zone that can't be intersected by signal, trig out will still be active and generate trig signal (see pictures). And - magic - trig out shows update rate much higher than in normal mode without any zone triggering. More than that, there is no any packets in this case. (Test mode: input signal - sin 10MHz 1Vp-p, channel 1, 20ns time base. 12 735 wfm/s without zone triggering, 11 400 wfm/s with settings from picture "Zone0", 63 800 wfm/s with settings from picture "Zone1". Last picture - trig out signal for "Zone1" case. )
 
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Offline WinnieThePooh

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2019, 08:21:58 am »
Quote
20. Color Grade function is VERY dependent on waveform’s Intensity setting (display>intensity). At maximum intensity you’ll see all white waveform, at minimum – all black, actually without any color difference.  This feature is not mentioned in manual.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04] / [FW v00.01.01.04.04]

I think you should just set it to 50% for color grading (or set auto to that). But it would be nice if changing this did something like change the color pattern or similar.

Yes, works great with 50% intensity. But when intensity is set to 100% and you turn on color grading, you just don't understand what is going on. Influence of intense on color grading isn't mentioned in manual. Moreover, intensity setting isn't available in color grading mode.

Bug 22.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04]
SCPI command ':LA:TCALibrate' doesn't do anything. This is something that should be a menu option on the scope, so maybe its not been implemented yet.

Code: [Select]
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000
:LA:TCAL 0.000000100
:LA:TCALibrate?
response: 0.000000

:channel1:tcal 0.000000100 for example, works OK

Thanks, added in bug list
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2019, 03:25:29 pm »
Hi,


Maybe a bug:

Want to look about new Firmware, so I connected the MSO to LAN, pressing "Online Upgrade".
After take the confirmation in the popup box, it freezes.
Switch off/on, it still freezes.
Switch off, disconnect the lan, switch on, everything is OK.
Thought, this behaviour comes with the hack, so I reinstalled the former FW.
Same as above, it freezes when You will do the online upgrade thing.

Martin

Online tv84

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2019, 04:05:03 pm »
Switch off/on, it still freezes.
Switch off, disconnect the lan, switch on, everything is OK.

Very strange!!  :o

I don't think mine does that...
 

Online tv84

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2019, 04:14:37 pm »
Bug 22.
[FW v00.01.01.04.04]
SCPI command ':LA:TCALibrate' doesn't do anything. This is something that should be a menu option on the scope, so maybe its not been implemented yet.

As you can see in the list of SCPI commands that I posted, this command has function_ID 11031 assigned to it so I think it's implemented.
Could be a bug but maybe you're not supposed to trigger that without some vendor validation... just guessing.
 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2019, 04:43:57 pm »
Quote
I don't think mine does that...

A few weeks ago, mine doesn´t do that too - After a while the message appears, there is no new firmware avaible.
Maybe the server is down and this is a situation which can trigger this behaviour, I don´t know.
Nervertheless I´ve informed rigol.
Also about the "bug", that the power-state is always the same.
You could choose between "Default" and "Last", but it´s always "Last" after turning on....

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2019, 07:34:11 pm »
Quote
Nervertheless I´ve informed rigol.

It´s known (since testing my scope after modification) and has been forwarded.


Offline alexvg

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2019, 09:03:06 pm »
Thanks to your report and measurements

I add some...
18b. FFT does not have MAX and Average
18c. FFT size is not shown (and could not been set)
18d. Lack of Kaiser-Bessel Derived Window and Dolph-Chebychev Window, all these 2 windows with variable alpha.
I don't try to save a FFT trace, I don't know if this feature exists.
23. Lack of interpolation mode selection (line or sinc)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 09:39:22 pm by alexvg »
 

Offline hhappy1

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 06:26:35 am »
Thanks to your report and measurements2. ^^

I think number 14 is very important.

Because of black time, The mso5000 cannot be measured.

Set time is 2us and play a waveform with a glitch, Failed to measure.

Measurements are made for other products of 3,600wf/s.



Modify the trigger to a slope or pulse, and 2ch & 3ch on-off.  You can see it if you do it.

If you're doing very well......
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 11:07:49 am by hhappy1 »
 

Online Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2019, 08:12:10 am »
Another suspected bug for you chaps

When testing power mains 240Vac noise with the power analysis feature using a fully active Micsig DP20003 probe on channel 1 and a Pico TA189 current probe on channel 3 the scope would lock up and a hard reset required.

Performed numerous tests over a three hour period with the scope locking up around 50% of the time, tried the probes on adjacent channels (1+2 etc) also (3+4) same result, no spurious readings or spikes.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 12:25:42 pm by Sighound36 »
 

Offline KC0PPH

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2019, 02:44:06 pm »
Thanks for Posting this information.
 

Offline hhappy1

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2019, 12:16:17 am »
We have a new firmware.

I heard that the wf/s has been improved.

Let's compare who's different.  ^^

 

Offline mimi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2019, 01:24:13 pm »
Hello!

I checked the update rates for FW v00.01.01.04.08 and they are completely unchanged. The spec'd 500k wfm/s are only available with a single channel at 10ns/div. Might be a bug in their ASIC (which would be not so cool).
The only improvement I saw is that "color grading" now disables the intensity option (which makes sense). Also with 00.01.01.04.04 the intensity settings would be randomly greyed out even with "color grading" off. That has been apparently fixed. That's a fix for Bug 20 in WtP's list.

iMO 21) is not a bug. If you manually stop the acquisition, pressing "Stop", "Waveform freeze" keeps the display "as is" showing multiple waveforms overlaid (Just as if you would take a photo from an analogue scope). If you disable the option, manually pressing "Stop" just shows the trace from the last real-time acquisition. In fact when I got the sope this option was on, and I was quite irritated that when pressing "Stop" it would not show a clear trace.

I have another Bug for the list:

The trigger delay only works up to 535..537ms (the limit appears to have some sort of hysteresis) for fast sweep rates (<=200us/div, in single channel mode). For faster sweep rates it wraps around, e.g. 600ms equals sone 40ms delay)
Same for FW v00.01.01.04.04 and v00.01.01.04.08








« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 01:25:58 pm by mimi »
 
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Online Sighound36

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2019, 06:19:39 pm »
When using the cursors try using measurement mode, mine just doesn't work, neither does it when in the jitter measurement mode either.

All other cursor functions are fine
 

Offline mimi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2019, 07:05:11 pm »
When using the cursors try using measurement mode, mine just doesn't work, neither does it when in the jitter measurement mode either.
...
Works here (after RTFM :D). Allows to enable or disable "indicators" for auto measurements.

Best regards
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 07:20:45 pm by mimi »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2019, 07:41:13 pm »
I checked the update rates for FW v00.01.01.04.08 and they are completely unchanged. The spec'd 500k wfm/s are only available with a single channel at 10ns/div. Might be a bug in their ASIC (which would be not so cool).
Hi,

See also here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2047141/#msg2047141

And: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2058052/#msg2058052

Where I wondered about this:

Quote
Interesting:
The measurements were taken with a 25Mhz Sine at 5ns/div.
But if you zoom out to 20ns/div AND with all channels on, the waveform rate increases to appx 200000...hm.

Martin

Offline mimi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2019, 09:20:00 pm »
Hi,

I cannot confirm the 500k wfm/s for 5ns/div here.
Depth fixed at 1k pts:
  5ns/div, 1ch (8G/s,1k) 102k wfms/s
10ns/div, 1ch (8G/s,1k) 502k wfms/s
Though 5ns/div and 10ns/div have the same acquisition duration of 125ns...
One observation: If you use 10ns/div and feed a 100kHz signal you apparently not loose a single trace (i.e. you get a stable 100.000 kwfms/s). It starts skipping traces at about 200kHz.





« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 07:22:12 am by mimi »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2019, 09:50:48 pm »
Quote
I cannot confirm the 500k wfm/s for 5ns/div here.

If desired, I will repeat the measure..

Offline mimi

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2019, 07:18:36 am »
Quote
I cannot confirm the 500k wfm/s for 5ns/div here.

If desired, I will repeat the measure..
Not urgent, we cannot do much against the weird behavior anyway. Rigol is probably well aware of the issue and tries to address it.
I am wondering if the MSO7000 behaves similarily ?






 

Offline tinhead

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2019, 09:09:29 am »
I checked the update rates for FW v00.01.01.04.08 and they are completely unchanged. The spec'd 500k wfm/s are only available with a single channel at 10ns/div. Might be a bug in their ASIC (which would be not so cool).

it's not a bug, it is what the Hardware can do. When you check MSO5000 Datasheet, Page 8 "500,000 wfms/s Capture Rate", you can clearly see Rigol Shows screenshots with 10ns/div and 1k mem Depth as "reference Picture" for 500000 wfms/s". There is no single statement like "500000 wfms everywhere", so it is enought to get that rate at least once - as they did.
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.
 

Offline AngusBeef

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2019, 01:54:45 am »
I seem to have an issue with overshooting in channel 1 despite upgrading to the 01.01.04.08 firmware on gitlab...I thought 1.0.04.08 was supposed to fix it? I saw no change from 01.01.04.04 to current.

https://gitlab.com/riglol/rigolee/tree/MSO5000/GEL

 

Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol MSO5000. Tests, bugs, questions
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2019, 02:47:44 am »
This is a much better topic to post this than the hacking thread.

While some users reported 04.08 correct their overshoot/undershoot problems, the official readme in 04.08 does not specifically state this particular fix.

I presume you adjusted your probes with the reference signal, and did a self-cal after the upgrade?  As the upgrade alone will not fix the problem.

This issue seem to be hardware related, as it only affects certain users.  I don't have this problem even with 04.04 on all four channels, so I cannot test whether 04.08 makes a difference.

The word is Rigol is aware of this issues a few months back, and they are working on a firmware fix for it.  The question is whether it is fully implemented in 04.08, or you have to wait for a future release.  If it persists, you may want to let Rigol know so they can help you to fix it.
 
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