Author Topic: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!  (Read 18028 times)

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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #75 on: November 07, 2023, 12:48:09 pm »
One more before bed time...

I did a self-cal and measured Vavg as well as AC-RMS. There's only 3 channels because that's all that fits in the visible area (you guys can't scroll tables up/down like I can):



Not bad at all.

For compare.
Here Siglent low end model.  (1204XHD China only model).



Same 1ms/div and 10k Mem but in Siglent it have 1MSa/s instead of 500kSa/s as in Rigol in your image (because Rigol want display here only half length of acquisition and hide other half. Then other half is possible to look only after stop acquisition. Maybe it's exciting when everything isn't shown and revealed right away. I think that kind of thing would be better suited for a bedroom than to a measuring device. But let everyone do it in their own way.)


Note here is used 4 channels what all have different setup. 20MHz limit/100MHz limit, 1Mohm input and 50ohm input.
(100MHz limit is forced by system when more than 2 channels simultaneously in use - because real ADC samplerate!)


« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 07:37:31 am by rf-loop »
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Offline ifonlyeverything

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #76 on: November 07, 2023, 01:16:48 pm »
Is a hacked DHO800 an upgrade from a Siglent SDS1104X-E? I'm interested in the HDMI output + smaller form factor (small workspace) unless it's a bad trade-off in some way or another.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #77 on: November 07, 2023, 01:56:23 pm »
Is a hacked DHO800 an upgrade from a Siglent SDS1104X-E? I'm interested in the HDMI output + smaller form factor (small workspace) unless it's a bad trade-off in some way or another.

That depends a lot on which functionality is important to you. Here's my take:

Clear advantages of the DHO800:
- Smaller form factor, USB-C supply (if powerbank operation is of interest).
- Nicely implemented touch interface (plus classical controls and the dual multi-function knobs).
- 12 bit resolution -- not so much for lowest-level noise, but dynamic range, e.g. in FFT.

Clear advantages of the Siglent (if relevant to you):
- Logic analyzer upgrade possible -- although via somewhat expensive external unit with some limitations.
- Bode plots, if you have an external Siglent function generator.
Both functions would require you to get a DHO9xx or DHO9xxS if you want them in the Rigol series.

Philosophical/debatable differences:
- The scopes differ in various details, regarding their trigger, protocol decoding and measurement options. No clear winner here in my opinion, but it's worth checking the datasheets if some particular functionality is important to you.
- UI design is a matter of taste, I'd say. Siglent fans will argue that the restrained and space-saving design of the Siglent UI is more functional and professional; Rigol fans will argue that the Siglent layout and fonts look a bit old-fashioned and that they find it easier to get their bearings with Rigol's visual cues. Look at a few still pictures and/or Youtube videos to see whether you have a strong personal preference there.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2023, 02:11:48 pm by ebastler »
 
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #78 on: November 07, 2023, 02:59:19 pm »
Is that a 1104X-E?

Why is it worse with the bandwidth limit on?

It says "1104X-E" on the front but it thinks it is a 1204X-E, 200MHz BW.

The noise is lower at 20MHz BW, as I think has been explained. 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #79 on: November 07, 2023, 07:36:27 pm »
Is a hacked DHO800 an upgrade from a Siglent SDS1104X-E? I'm interested in the HDMI output + smaller form factor (small workspace) unless it's a bad trade-off in some way or another.
You may need to consider a bigger picture.
Do you have a PC on/near the bench as the webserver provides for porting to a large display.
X-E sampling rates and mem depth are superior with all channels active unless the 800 is hacked which only provides greater mem depth.
BTW, did you know all X-E models have been reduced in price.
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #80 on: November 07, 2023, 08:01:33 pm »
This is not the right thread for this, but...
Quote
unless the 800 is hacked which only provides greater mem depth.

Everyone hacks their scope...
You can expand the memory to 50Mpts and increase the bandwidth to 200Mhz(DHO804).
The display is higher resolution and touch, you can get several windows with signals on the screen and it has 12 bit as normal resolution instead of 8bit + 3bit Eres (which costs bandwidth).
You can connect a larger screen via hdmi and therefore do not have the problem of having to establish a network connection.
The Rigol also has a web server on top.



Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #81 on: November 07, 2023, 08:09:04 pm »
Is a hacked DHO800 an upgrade from a Siglent SDS1104X-E? I'm interested in the HDMI output + smaller form factor (small workspace) unless it's a bad trade-off in some way or another.
You may need to consider a bigger picture.
Do you have a PC on/near the bench as the webserver provides for porting to a large display.
X-E sampling rates and mem depth are superior with all channels active unless the 800 is hacked which only provides greater mem depth.
BTW, did you know all X-E models have been reduced in price.

No need to sell him an 1104X-E, he already has one!  ;)

But I would agree that switching from that to a DHO800 only makes sense if one is explicity interested in the "package" features of the DHO: Small form factor, VESA mount, HDMI out, USB-C supply (with power bank option). And it does imply some compromises, e.g. on the sampling rate when used in 4-channel mode.

On the other hand, if HDMI is of particular interest: I would not count the X-E's web server as a replacement for the DHO's HDMI out, especially compared to using an external touch screen on the DHO. While the web interface seems quite responsive, it can't offer the same user experience, by design, since the X-E is not a touch-screen scope.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2023, 06:28:51 am »
No need to sell him an 1104X-E, he already has one!  ;)

 ;D

BTW, did you know all X-E models have been reduced in price.

I wonder why...?  >:D

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2023, 06:47:30 am »
The noise is lower at 20MHz BW, as I think has been explained.

Yeah, I know that...

I think I'm confused about which channel has the bandwidth limited. I thought it was the cyan channel but it might be the yellow channel.

Does this little 'B' indicate the bandwidth limiter?

 

Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2023, 06:53:00 am »
I think I'm confused about which channel has the bandwidth limited. I thought it was the cyan channel but it might be the yellow channel.
Does this little 'B' indicate the bandwidth limiter?

Yes, that's the indicator you want to look at. I also got confused at first glance by the "BW Limit 20M" at the bottom of the screen. (In a blue color which looks pretty much the same as the cyan channel to slightly colour-blind me.)
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2023, 07:04:01 am »
CH1 in white letters indicates which channel menu is selected.  ;)
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2023, 07:35:44 am »
I also got confused at first glance by the "BW Limit 20M" at the bottom of the screen. (In a blue color which looks pretty much the same as the cyan channel to slightly colour-blind me.)

Yep, that's what fooled me, too.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2023, 07:40:35 am »
CH1 in white letters indicates which channel menu is selected.  ;)

This?


I'm definitely going with "Rigol wins" on that one...


And to the guy who's asking if the Rigol would be an upgrade to his SDS1104X-E: This kinda sums it up for me. Look at the difference in the indicators, fonts, etc. The Rigol is just newer, and feels like it when you're using it.

The overall abilities are very similar but which would you rather own?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 07:51:15 am by Fungus »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2023, 07:54:42 am »
Now people can compare to other scopes with same settings..

Here you go:


[ two images ]

 ;) Except that @Fungus have used 500kSa/s and 10k acquisition length.  Your images visible traces have up to 4000 times more data...
(and data visible only 5k. Least I do not know if Rigol use only visible part of acquisition data for measurements or whole total acquisition length but this is not an important thing in this case. Let's hope some also test this thing using some suitable test signal.)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 08:07:21 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #89 on: November 08, 2023, 08:00:52 am »
Now people can compare to other scopes with same settings..

 ;) Except that @Fungus have used 500kSa/s and 10k acquisition length. 

Nope, this is the image being referred to by 2N3055 :


I don't think it will make any difference for RMS though.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 08:04:48 am by Fungus »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #90 on: November 08, 2023, 08:49:02 am »
CH1 in white letters indicates which channel menu is selected.  ;)

This?


Yes, the channel menu indicator which matches the channel tab info you conveniently deleted.  :horse:
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #91 on: November 08, 2023, 08:55:14 am »
Now people can compare to other scopes with same settings..

 ;) Except that @Fungus have used 500kSa/s and 10k acquisition length. 

Nope, this is the image being referred to by 2N3055 :


I don't think it will make any difference for RMS though.

Of course. All this is explained in old Agilent paper what all know. Evaluating Oscilloscope Vertical Noise Characteristics, Application Note 1558

With this kind of random noise  trace visual fatness rise some amount when displayed data density rise (because noise is random and with more data we get more probability to catch more highest peak values..
 
But this leads to one thing.
If we use very very different amount of data... as in my previous message I told your one image have 5k data on display and other peoples (@bdunham7) image with other oscilloscope have 4000 times and 2800 times more data on display what produce more "fat" trace and  many peoples may only fast look images and mind may produce imagination about noise level from trace fatness instead of measured numbers. We all know how peoples mind produce imaginations.
 
So as far as possible I recommend to use around same settings (this msg was not based to you (and your other image)  but as you see other people use image where was just after your 10k/500kSa image  his ( @bdunham7 ) images where was used 2GSa 20M  and 14Mpts.  And my comment was just for this case.
EV of course. Cars with smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum.
Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the (strong)wises gone?
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2023, 09:08:41 am »
Yes, the channel menu indicator which matches the channel tab info you conveniently deleted.  :horse:

I deleted them because I couldn't see any indication there that one of them was highlighted or related to the the bottom menu.


Is there anything else on screen to indicate which channel is selected apart from the white "CH1"?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 09:11:59 am by Fungus »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2023, 09:35:45 am »
Yes, the channel menu indicator which matches the channel tab info you conveniently deleted.  :horse:

I deleted them because I couldn't see any indication there that one of them was highlighted or related to the the bottom menu.


Is there anything else on screen to indicate which channel is selected apart from the white "CH1"?
Yes, the active to the controls and selected channel trace is always atop all other channels.
The channel button is illuminated and that channel menu is shown unless you use the Hide Menu feature.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2023, 09:47:46 am »
Yes, the active to the controls and selected channel trace is always atop all other channels.

So... Rigol has a much shallower learning curve.


Got it!

 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2023, 09:58:19 am »
Yes, the active to the controls and selected channel trace is always atop all other channels.

So... Rigol has a much shallower learning curve.


Got it!
Yep, no probe attenuation info.  ::)
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth / bandwidth upgrades and noise level!
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2023, 03:38:43 pm »
Yep, no probe attenuation info.  ::)

Yeah.... that's SO much more important than knowing which trace is going to move or change scale when you twist a knob.

All the channel settings are only a gesture away.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2023, 04:06:37 pm »
So as far as possible I recommend to use around same settings (this msg was not based to you (and your other image)  but as you see other people use image where was just after your 10k/500kSa image  his ( @bdunham7 ) images where was used 2GSa 20M  and 14Mpts.  And my comment was just for this case.

For those of you faked out by the blue menu colors, in real life Siglent is using a blue color for active menu items, including the selected channel parameter, the "Trig'd" indicator, the trigger point and so forth.  This is quite distinct in real life from the cyan channel color, although that may not be obvious on your monitor or if you have color-blindness.  Unfortunately there's no option to change the colors.

I missed the fact that the memory and sample rate were much reduced in the other examples.  Why was that done anyway?  In any case, here is the SDS1204X-E at 1MSa/s and 14kpts.  Also, I added another screenshot showing how much of the noise in the Siglent is low-frequency.  In addition, it might be good to compare scopes at 1V/div as well, to see how much of the fat traces are due to front-end noise at the lowest levels and how much is due to other factors.  Some scopes don't quiet down proportionally as you decrease the gain and still have fat traces at the higher V/div settings.  At 1mV/div, it looks like both the Rigol and the Siglent (1204X-E) have an ENOB of just under 7.  I'd hope to see the Rigol doing much better at 1V/div.





« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 04:10:22 pm by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2023, 11:09:12 am »
For those of you faked out by the blue menu colors, in real life Siglent is using a blue color for active menu items, including the selected channel parameter, the "Trig'd" indicator, the trigger point and so forth.  This is quite distinct in real life from the cyan channel color

Yeah, it's obvious (sorta) when you know it... but it wasn't obvious to a few people just by looking at a screenshot.

Hence my comment about "learning curve".
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Rigol DHO800 memory depth is a deal breaker
« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2023, 08:25:41 pm »
Yeah, it's obvious (sorta) when you know it... but it wasn't obvious to a few people just by looking at a screenshot.

It's obvious enough when you're actually using the scope, so the only learning curve would be for reading screenshots.  And Siglent seems to be good about getting most of the necessary information to interpret a signal up on the screen. 

Can you try what I suggested and post a screenshot of your scope at 20MHz and Full BW, 1ms/div, open connectors but at 1V/div?  I'm curious what you'd get for ENOB when you get out of the lowest scales.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 


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