Author Topic: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (latest: 00.04.04.04.03, 2019-05-30)  (Read 61152 times)

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Offline Karel

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #175 on: October 21, 2017, 03:40:55 pm »
I want to add another bug. The DS1000Z series does not display the full vertical resolution, it clips it at 80%.

I think you are mistaken (or I do not fully understand).

The latter, you do not fully understand. I will try to explain better.

The scope and DSRemote use the same settings.
The waveform you see with DSRemote is downloaded from the scope at the very moment that scope was displaying
the clipped sinewave.

And yes, DSRemote shows more divisions in vertical direction because it can utilize the full 8-bit or 256 steps.
The scope's display instead, is using only 200 steps of the same waveform data.

Ofcourse, you can adjust the vertical scale of the scope to make the sinewave fit, but that's not my point.
My point is that the scope is not using the full dynamic range of the adc.

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Online frozenfrogz

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #176 on: October 21, 2017, 04:43:13 pm »
So basically you are saying, that there is a mismatch between displayed divisions and actual ADC gain setting / range?

Namely:

8 div@2V: 16V/256 = 0.06V expected resolution
10 div@2V: 20V/256 = 0.08V true resolution *

*where true gain setting might have to be determined via experiments
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 04:46:48 pm by frozenfrogz »
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Offline Karel

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #177 on: October 21, 2017, 05:36:43 pm »
Yes. Also, it's kind of a "documented bug". If you take a look at the programming guide 2 - 223 (page 239)
there's written that the "Yincrement" steps are verticalscale / 25.

For example, the 4000 and 6000 series don't suffer from this limitation.
In their respective programming guides they specify that "Yincrement" steps are verticalscale / 32.

Which is weird because the 4000 series uses a display with the same number of pixels.

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #178 on: October 21, 2017, 05:42:35 pm »
Karel, this is interesting. I normally use the built-in screen and so never noticed the discrepancy. I wonder what they gained or saved by truncating the screen rather than scaling it to fit. Just a case of ease of implementation?
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #179 on: October 21, 2017, 06:29:52 pm »
Karel, this is interesting. I normally use the built-in screen and so never noticed the discrepancy. I wonder what they gained or saved by truncating the screen rather than scaling it to fit. Just a case of ease of implementation?

Probably because "200" maps to a 400 pixel display very easily in hardware but "256" doesn't.

I would be interesting to know if any other 'scopes do this. It wouldn't be the first time somebody points a finger at the DS1054Z only to find out that many other 'scopes do it as well.
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #180 on: October 21, 2017, 07:13:39 pm »
Yeah, ease of implementation.
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Offline Karel

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #181 on: October 21, 2017, 07:51:32 pm »
Karel, this is interesting. I normally use the built-in screen and so never noticed the discrepancy. I wonder what they gained or saved by truncating the screen rather than scaling it to fit. Just a case of ease of implementation?

Probably because "200" maps to a 400 pixel display very easily in hardware but "256" doesn't.

Then why didn't they do it with the 4000 series which uses the same resolution?
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #182 on: October 21, 2017, 09:40:00 pm »
Good question. I dunno.

- Product differentiation? Pay more, get more/better.
- Processing limitation?
- Not sharing code between models?
- Implemented by different team?
- Something else? :-//

I wouldn't think it's to avoid quantization error from fitting 256 values across 400 pixels. Scopes aren't so accurate for that to matter so much anyway.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #183 on: October 21, 2017, 09:43:57 pm »
Then why didn't they do it with the 4000 series which uses the same resolution?

Bigger FPGA, more free gates?

Who knows...?

 

Offline technogeeky

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #184 on: October 21, 2017, 10:00:32 pm »
Karel, this is interesting. I normally use the built-in screen and so never noticed the discrepancy. I wonder what they gained or saved by truncating the screen rather than scaling it to fit. Just a case of ease of implementation?

There is a kind of hidden feature in this somewhat-bug. One of the annoying limitations of the 1054z is that you can't hide a waveform that you are using as a source of data like you can on other scopes. For instance, if you are doing some MATH function (say, FFT) on a trace you can't turn it off to hide it, and just see the result.

But this way, as long as your trace is small, you can hide it just off screen!

 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #185 on: October 21, 2017, 10:09:30 pm »
LOL, nice side effect, technogeeky. The down side, though, is that you sacrifice the resolution of your input to that math function by allowing the "hidden" signal to be small enough to fit within that small space up (or down) there.
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Online frozenfrogz

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #186 on: October 27, 2017, 12:43:51 pm »
Since I was quite busy the last couple of days I added the ADC gain <-> display mismatch bug to the OP just today.

In case you have a better description in mind, please let me know :)

The OP needs some work to become untangled and more approachable in my opinion and I am thinking about sorting the bug list by matter of importance // urgency. Maybe I can do it this weekend, but I can not make any promises.

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Offline metrologist

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #187 on: October 27, 2017, 02:05:43 pm »
Yes. Also, it's kind of a "documented bug". If you take a look at the programming guide 2 - 223 (page 239)
there's written that the "Yincrement" steps are verticalscale / 25.

For example, the 4000 and 6000 series don't suffer from this limitation.
In their respective programming guides they specify that "Yincrement" steps are verticalscale / 32.

Which is weird because the 4000 series uses a display with the same number of pixels.

The specifications state that the vertical resolution is 8 bits. How does DSRemote get all 8 bits? Is it using Raw mode?
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #188 on: October 27, 2017, 02:58:58 pm »
The vertical resolution is 8 bits. It doesn't says all 256 values must fit on one screen.
As a parallel situation, it would be unfair to consider the time zoom feature as a bug, just because it doesn't fit all the samples in the same screen without scrolling, right?

I see this 8 divisions instead of 10 as a display limitation, not as a bug. Yes, it could have been better, with 10 divisions drawn on the screen, but it's not.

One more thing, only 8 horizontal divisions instead of 10 is nothing when compared with only half resolution on some voltage ranges (as in 7 bits instead of 8 bits). I remember there were certain voltage ranges where the values were all odd when read by SCPI, which led me to the conclusion that some voltage ranges were just simulated in software by a x2 multiplication, instead of using a real voltage divider in the analog path of the measured signal.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 03:01:30 pm by RoGeorge »
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #189 on: October 27, 2017, 03:08:30 pm »
But how do you qualify the vertical resolution as being 8 bits? It seems there is only one way to get the full 8 bits out of the device, via SCPI in RAW mode, which presents other limitations.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #190 on: October 27, 2017, 03:15:02 pm »
Yes. Also, it's kind of a "documented bug". If you take a look at the programming guide 2 - 223 (page 239)
there's written that the "Yincrement" steps are verticalscale / 25.

For example, the 4000 and 6000 series don't suffer from this limitation.
In their respective programming guides they specify that "Yincrement" steps are verticalscale / 32.

Which is weird because the 4000 series uses a display with the same number of pixels.

The specifications state that the vertical resolution is 8 bits. How does DSRemote get all 8 bits? Is it using Raw mode?

It uses the ":WAVeform:DATA?" command as described in Rigols programming guide.

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #191 on: October 27, 2017, 03:20:59 pm »
I see this 8 divisions instead of 10 as a display limitation, not as a bug. Yes, it could have been better, with 10 divisions drawn on the screen, but it's not.

The problem is not the number of divisions on the screen. The problem is that the scope is not able to display the full dynamic range of the adc.
It shows max 200 steps instead of 256. In other words, the vertical steps (as displayed on the screen) become unnecessary course.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 03:23:11 pm by Karel »
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
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Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #192 on: October 27, 2017, 03:25:49 pm »
Yes. Also, it's kind of a "documented bug". If you take a look at the programming guide 2 - 223 (page 239)
there's written that the "Yincrement" steps are verticalscale / 25.

For example, the 4000 and 6000 series don't suffer from this limitation.
In their respective programming guides they specify that "Yincrement" steps are verticalscale / 32.

Which is weird because the 4000 series uses a display with the same number of pixels.

The specifications state that the vertical resolution is 8 bits. How does DSRemote get all 8 bits? Is it using Raw mode?

It uses the ":WAVeform:DATA?" command as described in Rigols programming guide.

But then must it issue :WAV:MODE RAW beforehand? Otherwise, YINC is /25.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #193 on: October 27, 2017, 04:08:51 pm »
Yes. Also, it's kind of a "documented bug". If you take a look at the programming guide 2 - 223 (page 239)
there's written that the "Yincrement" steps are verticalscale / 25.

For example, the 4000 and 6000 series don't suffer from this limitation.
In their respective programming guides they specify that "Yincrement" steps are verticalscale / 32.

Which is weird because the 4000 series uses a display with the same number of pixels.

The specifications state that the vertical resolution is 8 bits. How does DSRemote get all 8 bits? Is it using Raw mode?

It uses the ":WAVeform:DATA?" command as described in Rigols programming guide.

But then must it issue :WAV:MODE RAW beforehand? Otherwise, YINC is /25.

Normal mode. And indeed YINC is 25/division, which is actually the problem because, apparently, the scopes display uses also 25 steps per division. Not 32 steps per division like the 4000 series.

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #194 on: October 27, 2017, 04:17:08 pm »
So then, how did DSRemote get the info for the extra divisions? In normal mode, it would only receive the display data.

Edit:
page 2-218: "NORMal: read the waveform data displayed on the screen."
and reference the illustrations on page 2-216...

I was also just looking at some screen dumps and every displayed sample uses two vertical pixels. The graticule is 400 pixels tall, with the bottom division's 50 pixels encorporate both the bottom and it's top graticule lines; all other division's 50 pixels seem to start just above the graticule line and encorporate just the top graticule line. So, there is the ease of implementation for the display.

And, how do we qualify 8-bit vertical resolution? I seem to recall that the measurements use display data for the calculations, so we actually do not have 8 bit resolution. Who's to quibble over a few (56) bits?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 04:48:34 pm by metrologist »
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #195 on: October 27, 2017, 05:31:02 pm »
So then, how did DSRemote get the info for the extra divisions? In normal mode, it would only receive the display data.

When requesting the display data in normal mode, the scope will send 1200 samples (200 for every horizontal division).
Every sample is transmitted as one byte (when format is set to byte). So every sample contains 2^8=256 vertical steps which is the full dynamic range of the adc.


The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #196 on: October 27, 2017, 05:59:57 pm »
So then I don't understand the point of having a mode setting, at least not the RAW setting. Seems you could set the format to WORD and get the same information (range). Anyway, that's off topic now.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #197 on: October 27, 2017, 06:17:04 pm »
Since I was quite busy the last couple of days I added the ADC gain <-> display mismatch bug to the OP just today.


Is it definitely a bug then? A "bug" implies it's something unintentional that needs fixing with a firmware update. If it's due to a hardware limitation then it's not really a bug (in my book). Even if it's done deliberately due to a marketing decision, then ... it's still not really a bug as such.

The vertical resolution is 8 bits. It doesn't says all 256 values must fit on one screen.

What happens if you freeze the display and move it up/down. Does the extra signal scroll into view?

If it does then it's not a bug, it's a feature.  :popcorn:

« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 06:22:56 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #198 on: October 27, 2017, 06:38:40 pm »
What happens if you freeze the display and move it up/down. Does the extra signal scroll into view?

Good question, I just tried. You can scroll into view.

But still, it makes no sense. Why not showing the whole waveform when it's running?
The 4000 series has the same display resolution and they do it correctly i.e. they show the whole waveform when running.
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1000Z series buglist continued (from: 00.04.04.03.02)
« Reply #199 on: October 27, 2017, 06:56:56 pm »
What happens if you freeze the display and move it up/down. Does the extra signal scroll into view?

Good question, I just tried. You can scroll into view.

It's a feature! R&S charge extra for their "virtual screen" function (which basically does the same thing).


But still, it makes no sense. Why not showing the whole waveform when it's running?
The 4000 series has the same display resolution and they do it correctly i.e. they show the whole waveform when running.

Must be a hardware limitation. If 200 pixels are visible then they're obviously just dividing by two in the display logic instead of fully scaling the values. Maybe they ran out of gates in the FPGA or it would be much slower or something. Only Rigol knows for sure. The 4000 series will have a more powerful chipset.
 


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