Author Topic: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size  (Read 45348 times)

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Offline pa3bca

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #75 on: November 30, 2014, 09:18:12 pm »
the fonts and subpixel rendering look simillar, but z uses different graphics elements.
for example
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-font-size/msg559826/#msg559826
background on the z has 3 shades, 2k just one. the border element (around word "normal") is not the same on both scopes. the contrast is too  much on z images. but that couls also be camera in the auto mode making different adjustments etc.
No.. all comparative shots were taken with the camera on full manual and identical settings, including focal distance and ambient lighting. The 1074Z is just brighter (as already established).
 

Offline i4004

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #76 on: November 30, 2014, 09:28:39 pm »
yeah, it's hard to focus this stuff, in the end i just put the lens on the scope without any external light....

i was kinda expecting it would be like focusing pixels on lcd screen(easy), but this is much smaller.

either way, scopes differ in displays, and in graphic layout (it's simpler on 2k) and this makes for those subtle differences one can see.
 

Offline pa3bca

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #77 on: November 30, 2014, 09:37:37 pm »
no. in my book you have something like this
http://televisions.reviewed.com/how_we_test
( Konica Minolta CS-200 Chroma Meter )
and measure both displays. science should be DIRECT. it's simpler that way, isn't it?
Although my DSLR and macro lens are not specifically designed for these kinds of measurements I do claim that my method of comparing the screens in macro mode is scientific.
Both shots were taken with identical (manual) settings, and at identical focal distance. Also ambient light was minimized. The absolute values of the intensity of the pixels (both on and off) may not be accurate (uncalibrated) but the visible and measurable difference is. And with a macrolens the 1074Z does bleed visibly in the black (mostly the green sub-pixels).
BUT: is this really visible and the prime cause of the washed out display some people complain about. Here it becomes subjective, and I for one do not think my 1074z looks washed out. Admittedly I did en do not even notice a different blackness between my 2072 en my 1074 in normal ambient light. Either I have bad eyes or an above normal excellent 1074z specimen  :)
But the font on the 1074Z is absolutely fuzzier than on the 2072.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 09:40:17 pm by pa3bca »
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2014, 09:16:02 am »
green is lower or higher. it's not aligned.

Not only green, all three  colours are alternating the  horizontal position in two patterns. It's quite  visible in the images. Its like:

| G  |R B| G  |
|R B|  G |R B|

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2014, 04:43:14 am »
BUT: is this really visible and the prime cause of the washed out display some people complain about. Here it becomes subjective, and I for one do not think my 1074z looks washed out.

Let's rewind for a minute. Has anyone else actually complained that the DS1000Z display is washed-out (in the classic sense of the term)? As I mentioned above, I first wrote that the display was washed out because of my camera angle to the LCD. You erroneously repeated my comment as if I was stating that the display was "washed-out" (which I wasn't). I erroneously re-used your mistaken comment to indicate the problem that I perceived with the blacks and whites (when compared to the DS2000) - although I tried to correct my misuse in a later post.

The DS1000Z display is not washed out. But the blacks and whites are a little further from 'true' than the DS2000 display.

Quote
Admittedly I did en do not even notice a different blackness between my 2072 en my 1074 in normal ambient light. Either I have bad eyes or an above normal excellent 1074z specimen  :)

Nope, sorry, you don't have an above normal DS1000Z screen  :)  I saw (and continue to see) the difference in blacks between the two DSOs in your photos (just as I see it in the two DSOs in front of me). Then again, as I mentioned, I'm extremely sensitive to it (having taught in graphics for years) - so i would agree that it's not a big deal.

Quote
But the font on the 1074Z is absolutely fuzzier than on the 2072.

Yes. And I believe it's due to minor fringing - although it's unclear exactly what the root cause is (and not really important).
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #80 on: December 02, 2014, 04:44:27 am »
i dislike "experience arguments", they mean the argument is in the toilet, once we come to that.
experience doesn't matter but what is said.

 ;D  Ha, ha... this is truly hilarious. YOU were the one to first bring up experience/expertise at least twice in your other posts:

as for this other things, you would need more experience with video and image processing (and how does it translate in the "quality metrics" in the brain) to understand it a bit better
...and we'll also talk about pixelization by lower resoltuion, which seems not really quite your field of expertise.....

...and then when I respond that I've been teaching in the field of computer graphics, all of a sudden "experience doesn't matter".

That is truly classic deflection... and - in terms of my responding to you - the proverbial straw.

Anyway, as amusing as this has occasionally been, your posts have been - and continue to be - a massive waste of my time. So, after 3 and a half years on this forum, I've finally run into someone worthy of my"Ignore List".

Congratulations... you win!

And adios from my feed.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 04:47:25 am by marmad »
 

Offline nixfu

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #81 on: December 02, 2014, 05:44:31 am »
Anyone complaining about the screens/fonts on the new Rigol scopes has never used an old scope like a digital analog storage scope with those horribly hard to read screens and characters, or for that matter the previous generation screens that were tiny like on the old Rigol DS1052E with their jagged fonts and all.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #82 on: December 02, 2014, 06:15:22 am »
Anyone complaining about the screens/fonts on the new Rigol scopes has never used an old scope like a digital analog storage scope with those horribly hard to read screens and characters, or for that matter the previous generation screens that were tiny like on the old Rigol DS1052E with their jagged fonts and all.

I have been following this thread and I have to agree with you. It is a great value budget scope and the display is very good for price.
 

Offline pa3bca

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #83 on: December 02, 2014, 09:07:47 am »
Let's rewind for a minute. Has anyone else actually complained that the DS1000Z display is washed-out (in the classic sense of the term)? As I mentioned above, I first wrote that the display was washed out because of my camera angle to the LCD. You erroneously repeated my comment as if I was stating that the display was "washed-out" (which I wasn't). I erroneously re-used your mistaken comment to indicate the problem that I perceived with the blacks and whites (when compared to the DS2000) - although I tried to correct my misuse in a later post.

The DS1000Z display is not washed out. But the blacks and whites are a little further from 'true' than the DS2000 display.
Ok we agree that the 1074Z's display does not look washed out. But for instance from your replies #52 and especially #57 you might see how I got the impression that you found it is washed out (somewhat, i.e more than the 2000). All cleared up now.
Nope, sorry, you don't have an above normal DS1000Z screen  :)  I saw (and continue to see) the difference in blacks between the two DSOs in your photos (just as I see it in the two DSOs in front of me). Then again, as I mentioned, I'm extremely sensitive to it (having taught in graphics for years) - so i would agree that it's not a big deal.
So it is my eyes... well I can live with that!  :)

Anyone complaining about the screens/fonts on the new Rigol scopes has never used an old scope like a digital analog storage scope with those horribly hard to read screens and characters, or for that matter the previous generation screens that were tiny like on the old Rigol DS1052E with their jagged fonts and all.
How true! My posts to this forum were not meant to find fault(s) with the 1074Z! On the contrary, I do think the 1000Z series are a terrific value for money. Just some fact-finding abt the differences and the underlying causes.
You want a better screen and performance? Maybe a $ 13.000 Agilent or Tek?
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #84 on: December 02, 2014, 09:27:41 am »
Anyone complaining about the screens/fonts on the new Rigol scopes has never used an old scope like a digital analog storage scope with those horribly hard to read screens and characters, or for that matter the previous generation screens that were tiny like on the old Rigol DS1052E with their jagged fonts and all.

I have been following this thread and I have to agree with you. It is a great value budget scope and the display is very good for price.

I agree with you both.  It's all relative, so those w/o much experience may not realize just how good they've got it.  And the DS1054z is so good that some folks have to put it under the microscope to find things to complain about (and I'm not referring to Marmad here).  It's a superlative scope at it's price point, and phenomenally affordable.  Though it's not perfect, and doesn't do everything more expensive scopes may do.  'Shortcomings' of virtually all scopes ever made.

The DS1054z is a case-study in how making mostly small design decisions can retain high value/functionality, yet cut costs to the bone and maximize bang for the buck.  All w/o negatively impacting the value proposition for their higher series scope lines (which is an important consideration).
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2014, 09:29:40 am »
My posts to this forum were not meant to find fault(s) with the 1074Z! On the contrary, I do think the 1000Z series are a terrific value for money. Just some fact-finding abt the differences and the underlying causes.

I never perceived them that way, and felt they were an informative and enjoyable read.  So, thanks!
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2014, 09:44:52 am »
How true! My posts to this forum were not meant to find fault(s) with the 1074Z! On the contrary, I do think the 1000Z series are a terrific value for money. Just some fact-finding abt the differences and the underlying causes.
You want a better screen and performance? Maybe a $ 13.000 Agilent or Tek?

Absolutely agree. I wouldn't have even thought to mention anything except markone asked me for a direct comparison to the DS2000. And of course because of the price difference, it's apples to oranges. But for someone who is having some eyestrain problems with the DS1000Z, the DS2000 is definitely a bit easier on the eyes - due mainly to it's screen size, but a little bit due to slightly sharper text / colors.
 

Offline nuno

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #87 on: December 02, 2014, 06:54:51 pm »
Although with a smaller screen and jagged fonts and whatever, I have to admit so far I like my DS1052E more than my DS1104Z-S. The extra screen space ended up not coming as the advantage I thought but as a disadvantage, because I find it so much more difficult to use the screen. I was using it yesterday to check a serial protocol and the vertical traces are so thin they almost disappear (and thinner than the graticule, adding more to the visual confusion), making it more difficult to visually separate the bits; I'm thinking now that maybe that improves by increasing the waveform brightness, but the noisy hi/low signal levels makes them extra bright compared to the transient parts of the wave, so not sure if that will be an improvement *. No doubt a good imitation of an analog scope, but I don't find as useful, not an analog guru. Don't bother saying I'm using the wrong tool etc etc, it's just the way I use it and it's my personal preference and how/what for I use a scope. I also have to admit, now that I can compare, I prefer and find more useful to my usage profile the "on or off" style of the older models instead of the analog scope style imitation (my 1st scope was pure analog and I still keep it, I was not "born" in the digital age). I'm starting to think I should sell the DS1104Z-S and buy one of the older 4 channel versions while they're still sold (DS1104B I think), and live with the smaller screen space; too bad about the function gen.


* I'll have to play a little with the settings, I may not be using well the available visualization adjustments on this
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 07:08:16 pm by nuno »
 

Offline pa3bca

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #88 on: December 02, 2014, 07:30:41 pm »
Now that I have my camera on the tripod I made some photos of an (the!) AM waveform, just to determine the differences between the scopes. (and is the 1074Z really as bad as some think. spoiler alert: NO it is not)
Camera all manual, 100mm lens, 90 cm distance between camera and scopes. ISO 100, f/5.6, 1.0 sec shutter.
Input signal 10 MHz, 100Hz AM, 100% modulation.
Two shots of both scopes, one in running mode and one in stopped mode. 
The shots in run mode (and 1 sec shutter) agree really well with "what the eye sees".
Here are some crops of the shots. For reference and further inspection I have the original full (16 Mpx) 2MB photo's for download here:http://pa3bca.pa3bca.nl/pa3bca_2071_1074_AMsignal.zip
nb: I have not corrected white balance of the photo's, these are SOOC, only raw to jpg conversion.  The 1074Z's shots look a lot bluer than those of the 2072. The eye corrects for this (in reality the screen does not look blue). It looks like the LED's that are used for the 1074Z's back-lighting are a bit bluer, but as I said this is not visible "in real life".
2072_run:

1074Z_run:

2072_stopped:

1074Z_stopped:

Funny horizontal lines on the 1074Z's shots. No idea where these come from. They are not influenced by for instance the modulation frequency.
The waveform of the 1074Z is indeed a bit more coarse/"blocky". I assume that is because the 1074Z has a lower waveform update rate in combination with a different implementation of intensity grading (Marmad would know).
But all in all I think the 1074Z looks quite ok.
I also tried it on my DS1052E. I will not post those images here  :) useless..


 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #89 on: December 02, 2014, 07:32:22 pm »
I'm starting to think I should sell the DS1104Z-S and buy one of the older 4 channel versions while they're still sold (DS1104B I think), and live with the smaller screen space; too bad about the function gen.

Keep in mind: the intensity-grading is not just for simulating an analog display; it's for getting more waveforms to the display in real-time. Your DS1052E (or the DS1104B) only capture a maximum of  between 50 and (maybe) 200 waveforms per second - while the DS1000Z is capturing thousands.

Here are 2 solutions you can try (or you can try a combination of both):
1) The graticule has it's own brightness control, so you can turn that down to 0% (or whatever).
2) Turn on infinite persistence.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #90 on: December 02, 2014, 08:19:49 pm »
The 1074Z's shots look a lot bluer than those of the 2072. The eye corrects for this (in reality the screen does not look blue). It looks like the LED's that are used for the 1074Z's back-lighting are a bit bluer, but as I said this is not visible "in real life".

Thanks for these. In fact, that bluish-tint is what I see with my eyes, although not as severely as your camera records it. Maybe my vision is slightly weird  :)

Quote
Funny horizontal lines on the 1074Z's shots. No idea where these come from. They are not influenced by for instance the modulation frequency.
The waveform of the 1074Z is indeed a bit more coarse/"blocky". I assume that is because the 1074Z has a lower waveform update rate in combination with a different implementation of intensity grading (Marmad would know).

Those lines (and the coarse/"blocky" look) are caused by math scaling for the display - and this is another one of the drawbacks (cost reduction?) of the DS1000Z which we discussed a bit in an earlier thread (although I can't remember exactly which one at the moment - maybe "Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope"?).  On the DS2000, the ADC values are normally directly mapped 1:2 pixels (200:400px), except when you use the 500uV/div or a vernier setting - those are mathematically scaled. On the DS1000Z, it appears to use math scaling much more regularly at normal scale settings, although I don't think anyone has sat down and figured out exactly when and how often it's doing it (or asked Rigol for the answers).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 08:24:09 pm by marmad »
 

Offline pa3bca

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #91 on: December 02, 2014, 09:25:04 pm »
On the DS1000Z, it appears to use math scaling much more regularly at normal scale settings, although I don't think anyone has sat down and figured out exactly when and how often it's doing it (or asked Rigol for the answers).
The higher intensity horizontal bands are equidistant, 6 pixels "normal" then 2 pixels with higher intensity, for a total of 8. Very suspicious  :)
Notice also that the blue pixels (that form the graticule with to two other colors) show much more dispersion than the other colors (i.e . look more fuzzy)
 

Offline markone

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #92 on: December 03, 2014, 12:31:21 pm »
Anyone complaining about the screens/fonts on the new Rigol scopes has never used an old scope like a digital analog storage scope with those horribly hard to read screens and characters, or for that matter the previous generation screens that were tiny like on the old Rigol DS1052E with their jagged fonts and all.

I have been following this thread and I have to agree with you. It is a great value budget scope and the display is very good for price.

You guys are missing the point, this scope is very good for the price but for a farsighted user the combination of small fonts & low screen pixel sharpness is real deal breaker, something that not only shatter the experience but also leads to further vision worsening.

I think that this 3ad could be a usefull warning for people with sight problem that is considering to buy a DS1xxxZ scope.

I was just lookink at last great pa3bca shots, "stopped" images fully confirm the fuzziness of pixels edges for DS1xxxZ screen.

With not aligned subpixels is impossible to render sharp lines, probably the lcd screen is where Rigol has focused cost reduction.

Of course i agree that for normal sighted people the problem simply does not exist, probably leaving place for complaints to a not so fast UI responce.

But i'm also sure that a screen like this brings premature eyes aging to everyone.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #93 on: March 29, 2015, 10:39:43 pm »
I forgot this thread but I went to a trade fair and tried the DS1104Z-S. My first thoughts were like: "What a nice small scope, but what's with that tiny readouts? They are so hard to read." There are some bad fonts.

Hameg HMO2000 scopes are easier to read.
But the numeric keypad on  DS1104Z-S screen is nice (as seen on photos). I did not know about that before.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #94 on: March 29, 2015, 10:41:05 pm »
The fonts in the menu are OK.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #95 on: March 29, 2015, 11:09:48 pm »
FWIW, on the last two firmware updates they added an option to change the font size.
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #96 on: March 30, 2015, 06:15:43 am »
On the subject of reading small text fields on a Rigol, I find a bit annoying the way Rigol keeps showing 'deleted' measurements, just in a neutral color.
I wish the grey text would be in a color closer to the background, so that it almost hides and doesn't disturb the other readings.
 

Offline i4004

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #97 on: April 30, 2015, 04:30:59 pm »
...and then when I respond that I've been teaching in the field of computer graphics, all of a sudden "experience doesn't matter".

That is truly classic deflection... and - in terms of my responding to you - the proverbial straw.

Anyway, as amusing as this has occasionally been, your posts have been - and continue to be - a massive waste of my time. So, after 3 and a half years on this forum, I've finally run into someone worthy of my"Ignore List".

i ment that as soon as somebody disagrees, folks like you will start with displaying the diplomas instead of knowledge.
i see what you say and i say some of those things are rubbish.
while others are quite good.

if you were teaching something, it doesn't mean you know all about it.

you got that answer after you asked:
Quote
(BTW, what exactly is YOUR experience with image processing again?)
i didn't ask about your experience, i just said you don't seem to understand stuff i say because you're not that much into some subjects. regardless of your diploma.

i don't care about your school(s) i just say some of the things you said were not right.

oh yeah, i never ignore.  ;)

pa3bca:
Quote
The waveform of the 1074Z is indeed a bit more coarse/"blocky". I assume that is because the 1074Z has a lower waveform update rate in combination with a different implementation of intensity grading (Marmad would know).

no, it's just that you can scale those finite number of adc levels to finite (but different) number of display pixels in different ways.
you will see simillar effects if you would resize some image with different resizers.
(1k being an example of a crappy resizer)
that's much more dissapointing about 1k series than the difference in  fonts and displays.
(i feel scope is not a device to read books on anyway)
but waveforms are not that jaggy in reality, they are much more like waveform on rigol 2k displays.
(in the end it means 1k is having less vertical resolution)

these differences i would attribute to different hardware mfrs and their preferences for particular (newer) technoligies etc.
i never liked cleartype and alike, so i would prefer "older" style of 2k when it comes to fonts.
but again, it's doesn't matter much.
i would prefer to see a better vertical resolution than a bigger fonts.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 04:34:17 pm by i4004 »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #98 on: April 30, 2015, 07:42:39 pm »
[qarrel ... quarrel ... ]
[qarrel ... quarrel ... ]

Mate - that post you are answering to is 5 months old!
How about leaving it alone?
 

Offline pa3bca

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #99 on: April 30, 2015, 08:24:55 pm »
[qarrel ... quarrel ... ]
[qarrel ... quarrel ... ]

Mate - that post you are answering to is 5 months old!
How about leaving it alone?
Yeah.. and he is still wrong  :palm:
 


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