Author Topic: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size  (Read 45338 times)

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Offline i4004

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #100 on: April 30, 2015, 09:24:13 pm »
ebastler, do you stand in silence when somebody attacks you?
i don't.
(you can also go back to see who attacked who first, if you want)

pa3bca, saying something is wrong without explaining what it is...is that usefull?
and actually i just said the same thing as marmad, but in slightly different words, easier to digest, as you wrote "suspicious" after his reply.
did you get it now? no? i'm still wrong? both me and marmad? is that even possible? i mean for marmad to be wrong?  :palm:

ie
Quote
The higher intensity horizontal bands are equidistant, 6 pixels "normal" then 2 pixels with higher intensity, for a total of 8. Very suspicious

that would probably be aliasing artefacts, another pointer to crappy resizing.
btw. you didn't say is it influenced by carrier frequency(?)
i think i posted some image that didn't have them...on a much lower freq. some pix by marmad also don't show these...

it's not really about bickering, i'm really surprised by such scaling, and this was the thread it was mentioned in. i also  mentioned it in other threads. anytime somebody mentions jaggies on it, i agree it's poor implementation. sorry about that.  :)
(you will also notice i asked in another old thread if some of it was fixed
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/anomalies-andor-bugs-inbetween-the-rigol-msods1000z-msods2000a-msods4000/msg663516/#msg663516
do you think it would  make sense to start new thread about it? i don't )


cheers
 

Offline markone

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #101 on: January 28, 2016, 02:11:22 pm »
Sorry if i revive this dead old topic, but i'm really starting to have serious problems reading my DS1074Z panel scope, everytime i use it i get headache (due to my presbyopia) and to not let things getting worst i decided to buy another instrument, similar or superior, with a crisper LCD and bigger fonts.

I use of course corrective lens, but the right tradeoff to stay on front a PC screen and table instrument prevent me to use this lovely little toy, for reference i do not have any problem with other instrument like the old DS1022C, the king of the crap HDG2002B or my spanking new SDG2042X.

Not sure if the Rigol DS2000 is the right answer (never seen one live), i considered Siglent new series SDS1000x & SDS2000x with 8" screens, they seems good for the purpose but functional wise seem A LOT behind Rigol, i'm talking about Capture, Math, Decoding & Analisys capabilities.

My Budget is max 1000 Euro, for a new device, EU market.

Any help, especially from farsighted that owned the 1000Z series and then upgraded, woul be appreciated !
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #102 on: January 28, 2016, 03:13:51 pm »
Sorry if i revive this dead old topic, but i'm really starting to have serious problems reading my DS1074Z panel scope, everytime i use it i get headache (due to my presbyopia) and to not let things getting worst i decided to buy another instrument, similar or superior, with a crisper LCD and bigger fonts.

I use of course corrective lens, but the right tradeoff to stay on front a PC screen and table instrument prevent me to use this lovely little toy, for reference i do not have any problem with other instrument like the old DS1022C, the king of the crap HDG2002B or my spanking new SDG2042X.

Not sure if the Rigol DS2000 is the right answer (never seen one live), i considered Siglent new series SDS1000x & SDS2000x with 8" screens, they seems good for the purpose but functional wise seem A LOT behind Rigol, i'm talking about Capture, Math, Decoding & Analisys capabilities.

My Budget is max 1000 Euro, for a new device, EU market.

Any help, especially from farsighted that owned the 1000Z series and then upgraded, woul be appreciated !
I believe Dave has a video review of DS2000 and he puts it next to the 1000Z if I am not mistaken. I have found one next to the DS1052E.



And you can clearly see even despite DS2000 having a bigger screen, the fonts on DS1052E are bigger.

I have a DS2000 and I use it two arm lengths away, without issues. My vision is decent though. However the measurements are really small and I can see some people having issues reading it even on the DS2000. I think it's better than DS1000 but your mileage might vary. Maybe look at some of the other manufacturers.
 

Offline TomThomas

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2016, 03:47:18 pm »
Sorry if i revive this dead old topic, but i'm really starting to have serious problems reading my DS1074Z panel scope, everytime i use it i get headache (due to my presbyopia) and to not let things getting worst i decided to buy another instrument, similar or superior, with a crisper LCD and bigger fonts.

I use of course corrective lens, but the right tradeoff to stay on front a PC screen and table instrument prevent me to use this lovely little toy, for reference i do not have any problem with other instrument like the old DS1022C, the king of the crap HDG2002B or my spanking new SDG2042X.

Not sure if the Rigol DS2000 is the right answer (never seen one live), i considered Siglent new series SDS1000x & SDS2000x with 8" screens, they seems good for the purpose but functional wise seem A LOT behind Rigol, i'm talking about Capture, Math, Decoding & Analisys capabilities.

My Budget is max 1000 Euro, for a new device, EU market.

Any help, especially from farsighted that owned the 1000Z series and then upgraded, woul be appreciated !

Hi,
the latest Firmware offers large and EXTRA large font only for Measurements but better than nothing.
Measure -> 2nd Menu -> Font Size

Regards
Tom
 

Offline markone

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #104 on: January 28, 2016, 04:16:33 pm »
-snip
I have a DS2000 and I use it two arm lengths away, without issues. My vision is decent though. However the measurements are really small and I can see some people having issues reading it even on the DS2000. I think it's better than DS1000 but your mileage might vary. Maybe look at some of the other manufacturers.

Your answer seems to confirm all my fears, screen reading wise DS2000 is a little better, not the best around and sure not a certain solution, of course i should have to see one "live".

My vision was VERY good till forty years old, then started to slowly decrease, now that i'm almost fifty i need +3.25 diopters to look at 30cm, +2.5 diopters for 50-60cm, +1.25 diopters for far vision.

Normally i keep +2.5D lens for bench work & PC use, soldering of course requires additional correction :'(

Considering that i started with electronic hobby when i was i child, to deal with computer when i was 14 (Sinclair ZX80 & 12" Mivar TV set) and spent gazzilions of hours with electronic bench activity, probably this is the unavoidable bill to pay.

My old DS1022C has the opposite problem, very LARGE dot pixel, i can read its screen in any condition, like the other toy that i used at home, the ATTEN ADS1102CAL (Siglent SDS1102CNL).

The DS1074Z was a shock at first run, fonts seems like a joke to me and the fact that the lateral menus are fixed does not help at all, obviously ten years ago It would be a complete different experience, but here we are, the clock says fifty.

The other scope models that i took in consideration (within 1K euro) are :

SIGLENT SDS1102X
SIGLENT SDS2072/4X
RIGOL DS1072A

I do not like at all OWON scopes for their huge plastic feeling, i do not want to consider any Hantek product after the purchase of the HDG2002B (the Firmware is a joke) and SIGLENT ones have quite limited math, capture and decoding functional capabilities compared to Rigol.

I'm not able to find SDS2000x reviews on the web, but reading the user manual and watching brand's ADs seems quite similar to SDS1102x, memory size/MSO option apart, with the very same LCD panel, but i may be wrong, of course.

Sincerely i was expecting a bit more on this front with the last Siglent scope X series, it's like they do not take in account what people find as plus in competitor equip. on the same segment, like the Rigol DS2000 series (that is on the market from a while),  it would be only matter to add some basic functionality in scope SW.


 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #105 on: January 28, 2016, 04:23:37 pm »
Your answer seems to confirm all my fears, screen reading wise DS2000 is a little better, not the best around and sure not a certain solution, of course i should have to see one "live".

My vision was VERY good till forty years old, then started to slowly decrease, now that i'm almost fifty i need +3.25 diopters to look at 30cm, +2.5 diopters for 50-60cm, +1.25 diopters for far vision.

My vision is similar to yours (perhaps worse) and I don't have trouble with the Rigol DS2000.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #106 on: January 28, 2016, 04:29:47 pm »
Your answer seems to confirm all my fears, screen reading wise DS2000 is a little better, not the best around and sure not a certain solution, of course i should have to see one "live".

BTW, if you're any good at programming and you have a PC in your lab, it's very easy to write simple software that will grab whatever data you want from the DSO (e.g. measurements) and display them whatever size you want on a monitor. It's one of the first bits of software I wrote on my older DS1052E.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 04:31:34 pm by marmad »
 

Online Fungus

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Offline markone

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #108 on: January 28, 2016, 05:58:07 pm »
My vision is similar to yours (perhaps worse) and I don't have trouble with the Rigol DS2000.

Are you are wearing progressive lenses ?

I hate them, geometrical distortion everywhere, but i know there is a point beyond which they become a must   |O

Right now i can live swapping two kind of glasses during different activities, not the best, i know.

Your idea to remotely manage the scope was already applied years ago with some custom Labview program developed during the spare time with different DSO, but in a lot of cases i need a direct iteraction between board under test/development and instruments (scope, signal generator, spectrum analyzer and power supply), especially for power boards or rf devices (filter & LNA).

I worked some years in ATE development sector (late 80s, till middle of 90s), the gold era of GPIB & VXI chassis, i played a lot with remote instruments management till a point i started to hate that kind of approach, returning to pleasure to deal with display, knobs & buttons  :D

In my previous job's lab i had access to lot of Tek & Lecroy luxury, but, as you can imagine,  for home DIY's needing they are quite an overkill and largely out of budget ;-)
 

Offline markone

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #109 on: January 28, 2016, 06:08:01 pm »
https://www.independentliving.com/products.asp?dept=12&deptname=

They could be ok with a PC screen in some extent, where i do not have any problem, but they are useless for a scope, unless you find a proper size.

Anyway, i did not see anything like that in action till now ...
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #110 on: January 28, 2016, 06:56:16 pm »
Are you are wearing progressive lenses ?

No, inside I just wear fixed-lens glasses - mostly a pair that works fairly well for a medium distance (50cm - a few meters) or sometimes stronger for reading at night. I also use extra magnification for PCB board  / precision work, etc. Like you, my vision was 20/20 until my 40's, so I didn't get used to glasses when young. It took a little while to get used to wearing a medium fixed inside, but now it's normal.

But I hate carrying glasses (especially more than one pair), so I wear bifocal contacts if I go out, which work well for driving, shopping, recreation, etc. They were really a revelation after struggling with forgetting to bring glasses, etc. after my vision first started getting bad (especially when my distance vision started to go).

Quote
Your idea to remotely manage the scope was already applied years ago with some custom Labview program developed during the spare time with different DSO, but in a lot of cases i need a direct iteraction between board under test/development and instruments (scope, signal generator, spectrum analyzer and power supply), especially for power boards or rf devices (filter & LNA).

I worked some years in ATE development sector (late 80s, till middle of 90s), the gold era of GPIB & VXI chassis, i played a lot with remote instruments management till a point i started to hate that kind of approach, returning to pleasure to deal with display, knobs & buttons  :D

Well, the software doesn't really have to control the scope per se (the SCPI commands are extremely easy to use), and the Rigol DS2000 (unlike the DS1000Z) doesn't allow the operation of the DSO to slow down regardless of how often you poll it for data. You only have to query variables (for example, VPP) and you get scientific notation back which can be shown on a large screen. Here is a screen cap of some simple software I wrote which displays any/all measurements of Ch1, Ch2, and Math - with as many decimal places and font size as needed.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 07:01:24 pm by marmad »
 

Offline markone

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #111 on: January 28, 2016, 10:59:58 pm »
No, inside I just wear fixed-lens glasses - mostly a pair that works fairly well for a medium distance (50cm - a few meters) or sometimes stronger for reading at night. I also use extra magnification for PCB board  / precision work, etc. Like you, my vision was 20/20 until my 40's, so I didn't get used to glasses when young. It took a little while to get used to wearing a medium fixed inside, but now it's normal.

Very same stroy here, i also found bifocal lens good for drive & recreation during the day, quite less during the night or low light, but useless to read, to work at PC or make precision works.

Well, the software doesn't really have to control the scope per se (the SCPI commands are extremely easy to use), and the Rigol DS2000 (unlike the DS1000Z) doesn't allow the operation of the DSO to slow down regardless of how often you poll it for data. You only have to query variables (for example, VPP) and you get scientific notation back which can be shown on a large screen. Here is a screen cap of some simple software I wrote which displays any/all measurements of Ch1, Ch2, and Math - with as many decimal places and font size as needed.

Yep, i know quite well SCPI command philosophy, i wrote a lot of code using them (HP Basic first, then Quick Basic, Labview  from 1993) for ATE benches mainly with HP/Agilent instruments.

Just to have an idea, apart aggregate meas data query that i assume are lighting fast to accomplish, how much does it take to load the scope screen data buffer to PC memory?

I mean not the whole acquisition memory buffer, only the scope's screen traces data vectors (or in alternative decimated acquisition data buffer).

Is it possible to reach a remote real time (or near to) live screen on PC ?

I managed to do that easily with an Hantek usb DSO but i failed miserably with the old Rigol DS1022C, the USB interface throughput was obscenely low, dunno if things are changed with modern Rigol's DSO.

With "el cheapo" external DSO was possible to push its USB controller  (CY7C68013A) near to the limit of 2.0 standard, obtaining also nice real time FFT graphs, with Rigol i was reeeally far from that.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #112 on: January 28, 2016, 11:40:32 pm »
Just to have an idea, apart aggregate meas data query that i assume are lighting fast to accomplish, how much does it take to load the scope screen data buffer to PC memory?

I mean not the whole acquisition memory buffer, only the scope's screen traces data vectors (or in alternative decimated acquisition data buffer).

Is it possible to reach a remote real time (or near to) live screen on PC ?

Well, you certainly aren't going to get 50k wfrm/s like you do on the DSO screen.  ;)

But Rigol learned their lesson after the DS1000E series  - which I was able to glitch and crash spectacularly by asking for data too quickly - so the speed at which you can read the waveform is wholly dependent on the DSO - which will NEVER slow itself down or interrupt an important task to send data to the PC.

So it depends what you're doing with the scope and how many channels are on. On my PC, using a USB connection with a DS2000, I'm able to get a maximum of about 30 - 40 wfrm/s with a single channel on, and about 15 - 20 wfrm/s with two channels enabled in Normal mode (although I think my code can still be optimized more). You can see in the attached screen shot of my RUU software the FPS counter - it's showing about 13 wfrm/s with a single channel on while in Delayed Sweep mode (although my software is displaying the entire 256 values of the ADC for 10 vertical divisions - unlike the DSO which only does 200 values / 8 divisions).

But my tests using a DS1000Z (it was borrowed, so I don't have it anymore) showed that it was considerably slower in transferring data - in the single digit range of wfrm/s.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 11:49:30 pm by marmad »
 

Offline markone

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #113 on: January 29, 2016, 12:41:56 am »

Well, you certainly aren't going to get 50k wfrm/s like you do on the DSO screen.  ;)

Of course not ;D

30-60Fps would be enough,  if achievable with most scope setting.

So it depends what you're doing with the scope and how many channels are on. On my PC, using a USB connection with a DS2000, I'm able to get a maximum of about 30 - 40 wfrm/s with a single channel on, and about 15 - 20 wfrm/s with two channels enabled in Normal mode (although I think my code can still be optimized more). You can see in the attached screen shot of my RUU software the FPS counter - it's showing about 13 wfrm/s with a single channel on while in Delayed Sweep mode (although my software is displaying the entire 256 values of the ADC for 10 vertical divisions - unlike the DSO which only does 200 values / 8 divisions).

Are we talking about mere DSO's screen trace's point vectors (ie 800 pt / ch with interpolation made on PC) or more complex data set ?

If positive the first one, the amount of data is quite small, in the order of some hundreds of KBytes/s for a complete screen @ 30FPS, the resulting bandwidth would be achievable also with the old USB 1.0 interface standard.

Of course it would be enough to implement a DSO working mode with slow (or disabled) internal screen update to achieve the task, transforming it in a luxury external USB DSO, but I can imagine that it is considered a swear word from the RIGOL's minds of marketing.

But my tests using a DS1000Z (it was borrowed, so I don't have it anymore) showed that it was considerably slower in transferring data - in the single digit range of wfrm/s.

Exactly what i was expecting ....

It seems that i have to take money out for a new scope with big fonts on the screen  |O

PS : Rigol Tech, if you are reading this, please implement a screen mode with NORMAL fonts for middle aged people !
 

Offline rich

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #114 on: January 29, 2016, 01:22:36 am »
Is using USB the only option or can the LAN be used and does it give better wfrms/s?

I guess intercepting the LCD connector and remoting it to HDMI/VGA/... for an external monitor is a step to far as a workaround for the font size ?
 

Offline markone

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2016, 01:48:40 am »
Is using USB the only option or can the LAN be used and does it give better wfrms/s?

I'm almost sure it's not an interface bandwidth problem, the data speed is limited by firmware policy for one (or more) of following reasons :

1) the internal DSO HW resosurces are not designed to
2) the code that manages the USB/LAN interface it's not optimized
3) it's the result of a marketing decision

I would bet on the latter.

I guess intercepting the LCD connector and remoting it to HDMI/VGA/... for an external monitor is a step to far as a workaround for the font size ?

It's a lot far, to say the least ;D
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #116 on: January 29, 2016, 02:05:24 am »
This doesn't directly apply to the DS1000z per se but on my quest to do a faster screen capture over LAN for my DS2000 scope, using alex.forencich's vxi11

I modified the script for the DS1054z screen capture to use vxi11 and my captures took 2 minutes and 40 seconds.

After modifying the code to keep the MTU at 1514 bytes I can get the capture in just 4 seconds.
More info here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/python-based-instrument-control/msg676772/#msg676772

Not sure if this will apply to the DS1000z series, but maybe.
 

Offline markone

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #117 on: January 29, 2016, 02:50:46 am »
After modifying the code to keep the MTU at 1514 bytes I can get the capture in just 4 seconds.

I would never have dared to transfer the whole screen image in raw format for the purpose, but even 4 seconds seems A LOT of time for transfer 1 MB nowadays  :wtf:

So we have a whopping 250KB/s on the LAN interface, that would be still enough for an external live screen on PC monitor if you transfer ONLY waveforms screen dots, plus some scaling parameters, leaving the interpolation math to the personal computer cpu (a joke also for 1Ghz Atom cpu).
 

Offline rich

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #118 on: January 29, 2016, 03:08:57 am »

I'm almost sure it's not an interface bandwidth problem, the data speed is limited by firmware policy for one (or more) of following reasons :

1) the internal DSO HW resosurces are not designed to
2) the code that manages the USB/LAN interface it's not optimized
3) it's the result of a marketing decision

I was thinking along the lines of your point 2 that it might have a sensible LAN architecture vs. a pitiful USB-serial arrangement.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #119 on: January 29, 2016, 03:11:23 am »
True, still the MTU size will apply to get things speedy with the stack implementation at hand.

Get the programming manual for the Rigol and implement the waveform transfer, actually someone has done that already but as far as I know it was just for the 4000 and the 2000 series, but might work on the 1000 series as well.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #120 on: January 29, 2016, 05:35:51 am »
Are we talking about mere DSO's screen trace's point vectors (ie 800 pt / ch with interpolation made on PC) or more complex data set ?

Display memory = 1400 bytes on the DS2000 = 1200 bytes on the DS1000Z= 50 pixels * screen divs * 2

Quote
If positive the first one, the amount of data is quite small, in the order of some hundreds of KBytes/s for a complete screen @ 30FPS, the resulting bandwidth would be achievable also with the old USB 1.0 interface standard.

Of course, but the point is that the DSO is a real-time instrument designed to be capturing waveforms, moving the waveforms to an intensity buffer, then decimating the contents of the buffer to it's display memory, as fast and as efficiently as possible, with as little blind time as possible. Most users that want to transfer waveform data from the DSO (and there aren't many who even want to do that) want the original deep sample memory for post-processing - not display memory - and that's not possible while running the DSO anyway. So the speed it provides - while still maintaining it's own fast capture rates - are reasonable (but not great).

Quote
It seems that i have to take money out for a new scope with big fonts on the screen

PS : Rigol Tech, if you are reading this, please implement a screen mode with NORMAL fonts for middle aged people !

Well, as mentioned, I don't really have a problem with any of the text size - except occasionally measurements (and that's usually when I have all or many of them displayed at the same time). Thus my software to throw it up on a large monitor close by.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 07:54:40 am by marmad »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #121 on: January 29, 2016, 05:37:27 am »
Is using USB the only option or can the LAN be used and does it give better wfrms/s?

LAN can be used, but the last time I checked, it was slower then USB.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #122 on: January 29, 2016, 05:42:45 am »
I'm almost sure it's not an interface bandwidth problem, the data speed is limited by firmware policy for one (or more) of following reasons :

1) the internal DSO HW resosurces are not designed to
2) the code that manages the USB/LAN interface it's not optimized
3) it's the result of a marketing decision

I would bet on the latter.

1 and 2.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure it's mostly #2, although it's also possible they didn't design the hardware well to allow for fast, asynchronous transfers from display memory during use. Of course, they could have included a SVGA output as standard, but they're always pinching pennies on these low cost DSOs.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 07:57:43 am by marmad »
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #123 on: January 29, 2016, 05:45:52 am »
Is using USB the only option or can the LAN be used and does it give better wfrms/s?

LAN can be used, but the last time I checked, it was slower then USB.

As I mentioned above, if you try to read more than 1420 bytes per transfer the TCP stack has to do resends and it slows it down quite a bit. With the TCP/IP frame overhead the ideal MTU size of 1514 bytes will speed things up making the LAN faster than USB transfers.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #124 on: January 29, 2016, 05:53:16 am »
As I mentioned above, if you try to read more than 1420 bytes per transfer the TCP stack has to do resends and it slows it down quite a bit. With the TCP/IP frame overhead the ideal MTU size of 1514 bytes will speed things up making the LAN faster than USB transfers.

I read your post, but IIRC (I could be wrong, but I'm not around my scope to check at the moment) I get 3-4 second screen captures using USB. So your rate doesn't sound any faster to me.

EDIT: Actually, just double-checked and it takes ~2.5 seconds to get a screen capture to the PC and save it (using USB).
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 07:52:19 am by marmad »
 


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