Poll

Can you reproduce the Freeze-up Bug as described in this thread?

Yes, can reproduce the freezing.
42 (40%)
No, can't reproduce the freezing.
63 (60%)

Total Members Voted: 100

Author Topic: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??  (Read 133673 times)

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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2015, 04:07:34 pm »
...
So where is Rigol on this issue? Where's Dave?  Based on our sample we can expect _half_ of all the DS1054 units out there to have this problem.
...
(Hello, Rigol.... are you out there? Dave? Earth to Dave, come in please...... over.......)

I'll repeat it again, did anyone reported the issue to Rigol? or do you really need Dave to do the work? or hope Rigol finds this thread?

http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/

I think a lot of people (like me for instance) selected this scope for purchase, at least in part because of Dave's somewhat "over the top" reviews of this scope. And we recall the trigger jitter issue, and Dave's treatment of that and Rigol's response to his input. In my opinion this issue is at least as important as the trigger jitter issue, and by now it is solidly documented as a reproducible bug in half the scopes tested, from a reasonably large sample. So I think it would be nice for everyone if Dave could report on this issue, since he has a lot more "street cred" than anyone else in these matters. If Dave can't reproduce the bug on his own unit, let him try three others. Chances are he'll find one with the bug.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2015, 04:16:08 pm »
I dont think Dave needs to be involved. I shot him a pm because I thought it would be a quick, easy video for him if he can reproduce it, but what does he have to do with it other than that?  if it really bothered me enough, I could still return mine to tequipment, but its specific enough , and has enough workarouns (just dont use auto depth) that it's not all that critical, IMHO. The jitter bugvwas a show stopper.

when I have a chance, ill report it to Rigol as well. I guess we all should, just to make sure. ill even offer to send them my scope to debug so long as they provide a replacement to use and pay for shipping.

sent from my phone...sorry for all the typos.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 04:19:42 pm by John Coloccia »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2015, 04:48:04 pm »
Well, one of the "gotchas" seems to be that the scope _sometimes_ doesn't remember the Mem Depth setting between power cycles, even if you have Utility>System>Power Set to "Last".

I haven't tracked down the full set of circumstances to repeat _this_ bug yet. But it appears that if I have just one channel turned on, Acquire Mode Normal with Mem Depth set to 24M, and cycle the power, the scope keeps the 24M setting. But if I have all four channels turned on, with Mem Depth set to 6M (max for 4ch operation) and cycle the power, the scope comes up with "Auto" Mem Depth. But since the scope comes up with the "Utility" menu displayed, the user might not notice that the Mem Depth setting isn't where it was left, and inadvertently enter the Freeze-Lock condition.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline willigo3

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2015, 04:49:42 pm »
I bought the DS1054Z 3 weeks ago and can also reproduce the error. Firmware Version 4.02.

Hopefully Dave can also take a test and Rigol read here.

regards,
Willi
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2015, 05:26:21 pm »
Thanks for reporting in. Now the "CANs" are leading the "CAN'Ts" slightly (the poll above doesn't include all the "CANs" that have reported to me.)

And... I just managed to capture the "Green Line" display glitch, which seems to be somehow related to the Trigger.  This is only the second time I've seen this glitch and I don't know the circumstances required to reproduce it. It disappears when the scope is "Stopped" but reappears when "Run" is selected, so I had to put up with a long delay while the scope saved the shot to the USB stick.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2015, 05:56:24 pm »
Well, one of the "gotchas" seems to be that the scope _sometimes_ doesn't remember the Mem Depth setting between power cycles, even if you have Utility>System>Power Set to "Last".

I haven't tracked down the full set of circumstances to repeat _this_ bug yet. But it appears that if I have just one channel turned on, Acquire Mode Normal with Mem Depth set to 24M, and cycle the power, the scope keeps the 24M setting. But if I have all four channels turned on, with Mem Depth set to 6M (max for 4ch operation) and cycle the power, the scope comes up with "Auto" Mem Depth. But since the scope comes up with the "Utility" menu displayed, the user might not notice that the Mem Depth setting isn't where it was left, and inadvertently enter the Freeze-Lock condition.

Because of this little "gotcha" it is actually possible for the scope to _boot up_ in the frozen (locked) state, even if it was running normally when shut down!! I've just shot a video documenting this "feature", which requires a "5th left menu button" reset, which of course loses whatever setup you had on the scope when you shut it down.

For example, say you are in Horiz. Zoom mode, 4 channels, with 6M set in the Mem Depth and 100 ms Persistence set. All is copacetic, everything is fine, your "workaround" is working. Now you turn the scope off for lunch. When you return you start the scope up.... and it's frozen immediately, because the Mem Depth reset to "Auto" and now the conditions for the bug are satisfied. What if you don't know about the 5th button reset, and what if your complicated setup hasn't been saved to disk?

So if anyone doesn't think a scope that boots up LOCKED/FROZEN isn't a significant problem comparable or exceeding the jitter issue.... I beg to differ with you. Especially since that "5th menu button" trick doesn't seem to be officially documented in the User Manual for the scope. People not reading this forum, finding themselves with a locked scope on bootup, may start to experience a little bit of stress, if you know what I mean.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #106 on: June 06, 2015, 07:17:34 pm »
Well, I went and reported it too.  I guess really everyone should just report it so it doesn't fall on the floor.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #107 on: June 06, 2015, 07:28:58 pm »
I just got an email from Rigol, probably an auto-response, but they have assigned a Support Case Number and a technician to look into the issue. I imagine they are all off for the weekend so I don't expect to hear anything more for a few days.

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline kenw232

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #108 on: June 06, 2015, 07:52:54 pm »
If anyone cares I've had my DS1054Z freeze but can't reproduce it.  I haven't tried to reproduce it though.  Firmware was 4.02 I think, I upgrade to 4.03 fine.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2015, 08:08:52 pm »
If anyone cares I've had my DS1054Z freeze but can't reproduce it.  I haven't tried to reproduce it though.  Firmware was 4.02 I think, I upgrade to 4.03 fine.

Yes, someone cares. Please try to use the steps outlined above and in my videos to see if yours will lock up under those conditions.

The easiest way to do it is first to go to Storage>Default (press the button) and this will reset most everything to the basic settings, with CH1 on.
Then:
Connect the probe to the Calibrator to show a signal.
Verify that the Horizontal Timebase is set to 1us/div.
In Display>Persis Time, set 100ms.
In Acquire>Mem Depth, set Auto.
Enter the Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Or by selecting Delayed ON in the Horizontal menu.
If you've got the Bug, the scope will freeze now.

If it's still frozen after you cycle the power, you have to use the "5th dark grey button pressed repeatedly" during power on startup to get back to Factory Default mode.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2015, 08:24:43 pm »
Here's the link to my latest video, showing how the scope can actually _start up_ in the frozen state, after being shut down while running perfectly normally.



The easiest way to reproduce this is probably like this:

Disconnect all the probes. Go to Storage>Default (press button) and the scope will reset to most all defaults, with CH1 turned on. Verify that it is at 1.00 us/div.

Now turn on all the other channels. The traces will overlay in the center of the screen, that's OK.
Set Utility>System>Power Set = Last.
Set Display>Persis Time = 100 ms.
Set Acquire>Mem Depth = 6M (or highest available).
Now enter Horizontal Zoom by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Everything still works, right? Not frozen, because you have 6M set instead of Auto in Mem Depth. Fine.

Now _exit_ horizontal zoom, and cycle the power. When the scope boots up, see if the Acquire>Mem Depth has changed to Auto. If it has... then you've got that little bug too.

So change it back to 6M.
Now enter Horizontal Zoom mode. Everything still works, right? Not frozen.....

Now cycle the power again, while still in Horizontal Zoom. If you've got the bug like I do, the scope will start up _in the frozen state_ and you can't even do anything about it. This happens because the Mem Depth has forgotten you set it to 6M and has reset itself to Auto, hence fulfilling all the conditions for lock-up.

Congratulations... you may think you have now just bricked your scope. Fortunately it will come back to life with the "5th button" procedure.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline gmb42

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2015, 10:19:02 pm »
Bug not present with original firmware 4.01.SP2, nor after upgrade to 4.03.  No apparent slowdown in the UI either.  No "upgrade" codes entered.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2015, 10:32:29 pm »
Bug not present with original firmware 4.01.SP2, nor after upgrade to 4.03.  No apparent slowdown in the UI either.  No "upgrade" codes entered.

Thanks for your report. So you've owned your scope for some time, then, since you had 04.01 originally?
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline gmb42

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2015, 11:24:30 pm »
Ordered November 2014, delivered in Dec.
 

Offline GonzoTheGreat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2015, 11:38:08 pm »
Please try to use the steps outlined above and in my videos to see if yours will lock up under those conditions.

The easiest way to do it is first to go to Storage>Default (press the button) and this will reset most everything to the basic settings, with CH1 on.
Then:
Connect the probe to the Calibrator to show a signal (Do you recommend x1 or x10 probe setup? )
Verify that the Horizontal Timebase is set to 1us/div.
In Display>Persis Time, set 100ms.
In Acquire>Mem Depth, set Auto.
Enter the Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Or by selecting Delayed ON in the Horizontal menu.
If you've got the Bug, the scope will freeze now.

I think we are not paying sufficient attention to the signal appearing on the scope's input, when attempting to reproduce this bug.
You originally stumbled upon it when doing some nanopulse shit ...didn't you?

Are all calibrating signals the same across all models? 
Do all bug replicators bother to apply the same signal to the scope's input?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 11:45:56 pm by GonzoTheGreat »
 

Offline LightlyDoped

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2015, 11:53:25 pm »
Try as I might, I can't get the scope to freeze following the posted steps. The scope's responsiveness does become sluggish while in zoom mode with the persistence set to anything other than min. (This is my second post, so I've already been counted. I wanted to see if a cold start might affect the outcome.)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 11:55:21 pm by LightlyDoped »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #116 on: June 07, 2015, 12:01:36 am »
Please try to use the steps outlined above and in my videos to see if yours will lock up under those conditions.

The easiest way to do it is first to go to Storage>Default (press the button) and this will reset most everything to the basic settings, with CH1 on.
Then:
Connect the probe to the Calibrator to show a signal (Do you recommend x1 or x10 probe setup? )
Verify that the Horizontal Timebase is set to 1us/div.
In Display>Persis Time, set 100ms.
In Acquire>Mem Depth, set Auto.
Enter the Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Or by selecting Delayed ON in the Horizontal menu.
If you've got the Bug, the scope will freeze now.

I think we are not paying sufficient attention to the signal appearing on the scope's input, when attempting to reproduce this bug.
You originally stumbled upon it when doing some nanopulse shit ...didn't you?

Are all calibrating signals the same across all models? 
Do all bug replicators bother to apply the same signal to the scope's input?

I almost always use 10x probe attenuation and channel setting to match, so I forget sometimes to specify it. You can take it as "default" that I am using 10x attenuation unless I mention otherwise. Sorry for not being explicit in the first place.

Yes, I first stumbled across it when doing "some nanopulse shit" as you say... if you can call 200 ns pulse width "nanopulse"...  but as I and others have shown, it is possible to reproduce the bug with the Probe Calibrator input signal, or even no signal at all. At least on my scope it is.

The Probe Calibrator for the DS1054Z produces a positive-going 1 kHz square wave, 50 percent duty cycle, at roughly 3 V peak. This type of signal is pretty standard for probe calibrators on low-BW instruments. Display it at 500 microseconds/div and each half-cycle takes up exactly one graticule division and it looks nice and square. If you look at this signal at 1 us/div you only see a small part of it and you can see how slow the rise time (or fall time, depending on which edge you are triggering on) actually is.

I can't speak for other bug replicators so I don't know what signals they are using. For me, the signal doesn't seem to matter, as long as I am looking at it at 1 microsecond/division or faster. Slower sometimes, too, but the 1 us/div setting works every time.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #117 on: June 07, 2015, 12:03:55 am »
Try as I might, I can't get the scope to freeze following the posted steps. The scope's responsiveness does become sluggish while in zoom mode with the persistence set to anything other than min. (This is my second post, so I've already been counted. I wanted to see if a cold start might affect the outcome.)

Thanks for reporting. I'm fairly convinced now that there are two populations of scopes, one definitely with the bug and one without. So you are probably in proud possession of a scope that doesn't have the bug. Rejoyce!

It would be nice to know what the difference is between the two populations.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Bob F.

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #118 on: June 07, 2015, 02:06:29 am »
Please try to use the steps outlined above and in my videos to see if yours will lock up under those conditions.

The easiest way to do it is first to go to Storage>Default (press the button) and this will reset most everything to the basic settings, with CH1 on.
Then:
Connect the probe to the Calibrator to show a signal (Do you recommend x1 or x10 probe setup? )
Verify that the Horizontal Timebase is set to 1us/div.
In Display>Persis Time, set 100ms.
In Acquire>Mem Depth, set Auto.
Enter the Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Or by selecting Delayed ON in the Horizontal menu.
If you've got the Bug, the scope will freeze now.

I think we are not paying sufficient attention to the signal appearing on the scope's input, when attempting to reproduce this bug.
You originally stumbled upon it when doing some nanopulse shit ...didn't you?

Are all calibrating signals the same across all models? 
Do all bug replicators bother to apply the same signal to the scope's input?

Mine freezes with the calibration signal on channel 1 and with no signal at all.  It is the timebase setting that is a part of the equation: mine freezes at anything shorter  than 20us/div and I saw some slow-down in the scope's response to keypresses at 50us/div.

Cheers, Bob.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 12:40:52 pm by Bob F. »
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #119 on: June 07, 2015, 03:30:41 am »
Mine freezes up with no signal at all.  I didn't even bother trying it with a signal.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #120 on: June 07, 2015, 04:11:17 am »
Thanks for the reports.

Has anyone looked to see if they have the second bug that allows the scope to start up frozen, even after being shut down while running normally?

That is, does the Mem Depth "automatically" reset itself to Auto, no matter what you had it set at when shutting down, even though you have "Last" set in the Power Set option?  (This one may depend on all four channels being turned on, I'm still not sure about that.)
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Offline bitwelder

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #121 on: June 07, 2015, 06:29:16 am »
It would be nice to know what the difference is between the two populations.
Are all DS1054Z of Board Version 0.1.1? If so, no other h/w designator on the scope (perhaps hidden as part of S/N)?
 

Offline Towger

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #122 on: June 07, 2015, 08:00:49 am »
Are all DS1054Z of Board Version 0.1.1? If so, no other h/w designator on the scope (perhaps hidden as part of S/N)?

There are a set of resistors on the pcb to set the version. 
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #123 on: June 07, 2015, 10:31:16 am »

The easiest way to reproduce this is probably like this:

Disconnect all the probes. Go to Storage>Default (press button) and the scope will reset to most all defaults, with CH1 turned on. Verify that it is at 1.00 us/div.

Now turn on all the other channels. The traces will overlay in the center of the screen, that's OK.
Set Utility>System>Power Set = Last.
Set Display>Persis Time = 100 ms.
Set Acquire>Mem Depth = 6M (or highest available).
Now enter Horizontal Zoom by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Everything still works, right? Not frozen, because you have 6M set instead of Auto in Mem Depth. Fine.

Now _exit_ horizontal zoom, and cycle the power. When the scope boots up, see if the Acquire>Mem Depth has changed to Auto. If it has... then you've got that little bug too.

So change it back to 6M.
Now enter Horizontal Zoom mode. Everything still works, right? Not frozen.....

Now cycle the power again, while still in Horizontal Zoom. If you've got the bug like I do, the scope will start up _in the frozen state_ and you can't even do anything about it. This happens because the Mem Depth has forgotten you set it to 6M and has reset itself to Auto, hence fulfilling all the conditions for lock-up.


After performing a full reset with the fifth button procedure and resetting the language to English, I followed through your procedure above to the letter, yes the Mem Depth set itself to auto, but the scope did not freeze at the end. Its response is a little sluggish, but it didn't hang.

FWIW, my unit is an MSO1074Z-S, 00.04.02.SP4, board version 6.1.1.

Although I set the Power Set to Last as per the instructions, I normally have it set to Default because of the way I prefer to work, although I can certainly see why some prefer the Last settings used.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #124 on: June 07, 2015, 10:55:34 am »
Thanks for your report. It's "nice" to see that your scope also resets Mem Depth to "Auto" when it shouldn't .... this is almost certainly a separate software bug. The fact that your MSO1074Z-S can't reproduce the basic freezeup bug is also interesting, since the board inside your scope is very different from the DS1054Z board. This reinforces my opinion that the Bug is due to some bad hardware somewhere, perhaps a bad production run of some chip inside the DS1054Z specifically.

I hope you didn't "vote" in the poll, since we are here trying to document the bug in the DS1054Z scopes!

As far as using the "Last" setting vs "default" for the power-on settings... I think it's a great convenience that the scope remembers (mostly) how it was set when it was last shut down. This makes working with complicated setups much easier. However, it is still possible .... in the DS1054Z ... to cause the scope to "freeze" instantly, if one has the right conditions stored in a user setup file, which is loaded after startup.
After all, if the scope is _not_ frozen, it is a matter of only two button presses (Storage>Default) to set the scope back to the Default setup state _IF_ it is actually responding to the controls.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 11:01:42 am by alsetalokin4017 »
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