Poll

Can you reproduce the Freeze-up Bug as described in this thread?

Yes, can reproduce the freezing.
42 (40.4%)
No, can't reproduce the freezing.
62 (59.6%)

Total Members Voted: 99

Author Topic: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??  (Read 132428 times)

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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #125 on: June 07, 2015, 11:00:20 am »
The boards are the same, just with more bits populated.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #126 on: June 07, 2015, 11:06:31 am »
The boards are the same, just with more bits populated.
Therefore the boards are _different_.

You have back panel connectors, front panel connectors, extra buttons, chips, many software settings that are not present in the DS1054Z. Right? It may use the same _basic_ PC board but how can you equate "Board version 6.1.1" with the 0.1.1 version that is in the DSO1054Z? 

Never mind. If you think your scope is the same as a DS1054Z, ask yourself why you paid so much more money for yours.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #127 on: June 07, 2015, 11:45:19 am »
Blimey, I'd try getting out of the other side of the bed tomorrow!

I'd have thought there was enough similarity such that the input is worth noting down. They use the same firmware releases.

The -S is a daughter board and an extra button on the front panel. The MSO is a few extra populated parts on the main board, and an extra button and connector on the front panel.

The price differential is because they can get away with it, the raw cost in parts is less than $20 between a DS1054Z and an MSO1100Z. Similarly, the -S daughter board plug in is about $30.

Should you also discount DS1074Z(-S) and DS1100Z(-S) users too?
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #128 on: June 07, 2015, 11:49:06 am »
Thanks for your report. Just to be completely clear.... you did try the following?

1. Display a signal on CH1 from the probe Calibrator, at 1V/div, trigger type Edge, trigger level 2.00 V, sweep mode Auto
2. Set Horizontal Scale to 1 us/div
3. Select "Auto" from Acquire>Mem Depth menu
4. Select "100 ms" from Display>Persis. Time menu
5. Enter Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob

I can reproduce it on my "upgraded" DS1054Z running 00.04.03, Board Version 0.1.1, using the instructions above.
 

Offline smithnerd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #129 on: June 07, 2015, 12:26:21 pm »
Just reproduced the bug on a new DS1054Z (about 1 month old).

Software Version 00.04.02.SP4
Board Version 0.1.1

Will lock up without any input.

 

Offline tech5940

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #130 on: June 07, 2015, 07:39:48 pm »
I'm also able to reproduce the bug. Software 00.04.03  Board 0.1.1  My scope is unmodified with the trials expired.


Sent from my iPhone
 

Offline GonzoTheGreat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #131 on: June 07, 2015, 10:44:15 pm »
My board's revision is also 0.1.1 and I can replicate the lockup.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #132 on: June 08, 2015, 01:56:37 am »
Blimey, I'd try getting out of the other side of the bed tomorrow!

I'd have thought there was enough similarity such that the input is worth noting down. They use the same firmware releases.

The -S is a daughter board and an extra button on the front panel. The MSO is a few extra populated parts on the main board, and an extra button and connector on the front panel.

The price differential is because they can get away with it, the raw cost in parts is less than $20 between a DS1054Z and an MSO1100Z. Similarly, the -S daughter board plug in is about $30.

Should you also discount DS1074Z(-S) and DS1100Z(-S) users too?
I do apologize for being terse.
 
But yes, the introduction of different models into the survey adds too many variables to the mix. As far as I am aware, the problem has not been reported in those models, or in yours. So you should be able to see that including a "no" vote from a population of _different_ models that have not exhibited the bug is kind of "statistically invalid". While the scopes do use (mostly) the same hardware and software, it is quite likely that they come off different production lines, have their components picked from different reels or batches, etc.  I appreciate your trying the test, but even if you had reproduced the bug I still would object to including the result in _this_ poll.
 
If anyone with a different 1000 series model actually _can_ reproduce the bug as it is detailed here -- then we can start another poll if you like, widening the catch to all 1000 series scopes, or specifically dealing with one or the other of the models.
 
The DS1054Z, "hacked" to 100MHz, or "virgin" unhacked, and running Firmware revisions 04.02 and 04.03, are subject to the Bug in about 50 percent of the units tested, or perhaps even more.

I'd still like to know if those who have the Bug can reproduce the "start-up-frozen" state after shutting down an _unfrozen_ scope, as I show in the video above. It's quite easy to do, since the fact that the Mem Depth automatically resets to "Auto" means that one of the bug conditions is set for you by the scope when you start up. All you need is the three other conditions: Persistence other than Min, main timebase 1us/div or faster, and Delayed timebase (horizontal zoom) engaged. Shut down (with "last" as your power-on setup setting) in that state and when you restart... your scope is locked from the get-go.


The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #133 on: June 08, 2015, 02:00:02 am »
Thank you all for your reports, and your efforts trying the conditions for the Bug. Still running about half-and-half. This issue should get Rigol's attention, since we have a pretty good sample size by now. There is definitely something wrong.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #134 on: June 08, 2015, 02:45:34 am »
I'd still like to know if those who have the Bug can reproduce the "start-up-frozen" state after shutting down an _unfrozen_ scope, as I show in the video above. It's quite easy to do, since the fact that the Mem Depth automatically resets to "Auto" means that one of the bug conditions is set for you by the scope when you start up. All you need is the three other conditions: Persistence other than Min, main timebase 1us/div or faster, and Delayed timebase (horizontal zoom) engaged. Shut down (with "last" as your power-on setup setting) in that state and when you restart... your scope is locked from the get-go.

I have reproduced that issue as well.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #135 on: June 08, 2015, 02:51:43 pm »
I'd still like to know if those who have the Bug can reproduce the "start-up-frozen" state after shutting down an _unfrozen_ scope, as I show in the video above. It's quite easy to do, since the fact that the Mem Depth automatically resets to "Auto" means that one of the bug conditions is set for you by the scope when you start up. All you need is the three other conditions: Persistence other than Min, main timebase 1us/div or faster, and Delayed timebase (horizontal zoom) engaged. Shut down (with "last" as your power-on setup setting) in that state and when you restart... your scope is locked from the get-go.

I have reproduced that issue as well.

Thanks for your report. I imagine that all the units that have the Bug will also be able to reproduce this one as well.

I've had email this morning from Jason the Rigol Tech, who has been assigned this problem. No information from him yet, other than that "they are aware" of the problem and they'll get back to me.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline n4in

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #136 on: June 08, 2015, 08:04:31 pm »
OK initially I was not able to cause my DS1054Z upgraded with 4.03 to freeze but now I can using all four channels as described.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #137 on: June 08, 2015, 08:18:51 pm »
OK initially I was not able to cause my DS1054Z upgraded with 4.03 to freeze but now I can using all four channels as described.

Thanks for your report. Perhaps you could now try reducing the number of channels one by one to see if you can get it to do it with fewer channels selected.


The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #138 on: June 08, 2015, 08:19:46 pm »
And.... just in case anyone was wondering....

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #139 on: June 08, 2015, 08:42:55 pm »
And... I just caught another instance of the Green Line display glitch again.

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Bob F.

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #140 on: June 08, 2015, 08:48:40 pm »
In addition to the original freeze issue, my scope will reset the Mem Depth to Auto when I power cycle it.

Narrowing down the exact conditions is problematic as it always resets to Auto if Channel 3 or 4 are selected on power down, but sometimes Chan 1 and/or Chan 2 alone or together will do it too...  Also always resets to auto if no channels are selected.

 :scared:

Cheers, Bob.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #141 on: June 08, 2015, 09:28:20 pm »
In addition to the original freeze issue, my scope will reset the Mem Depth to Auto when I power cycle it.

Narrowing down the exact conditions is problematic as it always resets to Auto if Channel 3 or 4 are selected on power down, but sometimes Chan 1 and/or Chan 2 alone or together will do it too...  Also always resets to auto if no channels are selected.

 :scared:

Cheers, Bob.

Thanks for your report. So most likely you will also be able to get your scope to start up in the locked state, after shutting down in perfectly running order, as I showed above.
Thank goodness for the "5th left menu button" reset capability!

I still haven't heard anything more from Rigol Tech Support.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline n4in

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #142 on: June 08, 2015, 10:53:23 pm »
OK with 3 channels it does not lock up but the Memory Depth going to AUTO when restarted.

I just got this unit from Tequipment.net about 1 week ago and I am trying to decide whether to keep it or return it. I am a hobbyist/Ham that likes to experiment and repair my equipment and my first digit oscilloscope. Not sure I should keep it, I am sure Rigol will come out with a fix but maybe upgrading this unit has pushed it a little beyond it capabilities.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #143 on: June 08, 2015, 11:31:15 pm »
OK with 3 channels it does not lock up but the Memory Depth going to AUTO when restarted.

I just got this unit from Tequipment.net about 1 week ago and I am trying to decide whether to keep it or return it. I am a hobbyist/Ham that likes to experiment and repair my equipment and my first digit oscilloscope. Not sure I should keep it, I am sure Rigol will come out with a fix but maybe upgrading this unit has pushed it a little beyond it capabilities.

Well, as my latest video shows, the Bug doesn't care whether the scope is "upgraded" or not, and I have several other reports of "virgin" never-upgraded units that freeze when the conditions are satisfied.

But it is relatively easy to avoid the Freeze conditions. Mostly it has to do with the Display Persistence setting. I've noticed that having some persistence set also interferes with the FFT updates. The scope's FFT slows to a dead stop if there is some persistence set, but resumes again when the persistence is set back to "min".

So really, to avoid the freezing bug and the FFT halting, just don't use any persistence setting other than "min".  Now that we (mostly) understand what produces the freezing, we can generally avoid the conditions.

Of course it's up to you, but I'm not returning mine just yet, nor am I calling for people not to buy the scope. I'm reasonably confident that Rigol will come up with a fix for this and the other bugs. They may need to completely rewrite the software, though!

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #144 on: June 08, 2015, 11:47:52 pm »
n4in -

It's not a show stopper bug, and it's pretty easy to avoid.  If the scope is doing what you need it to do, you'll be very hard pressed to find a scope under $400 that can replace it.  Ditto for the FFT bug.  I see this scope as a bare bones digital scope with a very nice display, and whatever measurement/math it does beyond the basics is just kind of extra, IMHO.  If you absolutely need more scope than that and need it all perfect, it may not be for you.
 

Offline n4in

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #145 on: June 09, 2015, 02:13:17 am »
I think you are both right, we get tied up in expecting more and not realizing the value.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #146 on: June 09, 2015, 12:55:15 pm »
And.... just in case anyone was wondering....



Yes... I'm really wondering. It has been less than 24 hours since I posted that video to YouTube, and I have not posted a link to it anywhere but right here on this forum. And I've already gotten 5 "thumbs down" votes on it! Yet nobody bothered to leave any kind of negative feedback in the comments, other than the thumbs down votes. And the same people have gone back through the rest of my Rigol demonstration videos and left multiple thumbs downs on them too, just in the past few hours. Yet they are afraid to leave any comments stating what they find objectionable. Imagine!

« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:56:58 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline W7NGA

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #147 on: June 09, 2015, 02:20:02 pm »
I sincerely hope that this bug does not discourage hobbyists from purchasing this scope. I bought the scope last week and immediately put it through the paces of debugging a relatively sophisticated amateur radio application I designed using both SPI and I2C data busses. Never a problem and very impressive performance. I also have an Agilent 7014B right beside it and the only fault I can find is somewhat sluggish operation with everything enabled (triggering/decoding), and the smallish fonts. Yes, there are few other things with persistence (forgetting settings when powered on e.g. measurement font) but for $380 (Tequipment with eevblog discount and free shipping), this thing could lose three channels and I would still be thrilled.

Indeed, it is the best thing going for the hobbyist. I am thinking of purchasing three more for the robotics class I teach. What a bargain!

dan W7NGA
 

Online Jeroen3

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #148 on: June 09, 2015, 04:36:14 pm »
This scope is really useful due to the advanced triggering. I used duration trigger to get a hold of CAN bus error frames.
Its feature/buck rate is very high compared to a tektronix.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #149 on: June 09, 2015, 05:02:13 pm »
I agree... mostly. The end user should be informed "up front" though as to how to recover from a locked-up scope by using the "Alternate Factory Reset" technique, and should be warned that this condition is quite likely to occur when a simple, legitimate combination of user settings is input to the scope.

It's a shame that the Display>Persistence feature isn't implemented without causing problems though. Say you are looking for jitter and have some persistence time set. Then you want to look at an FFT of your signal.  On my scope the FFT comes to a dead halt (although the scope isn't frozen) if any persistence time is set other than "min".

Also, look at the FFT display itself, even when it is running properly. How is one to know whether one is getting a proper computation of the FFT for a complex signal? The result you get depends on Acquire mode, Mem Depth and Trigger level, as Anand has discovered.

Yes, the scope is definitely still the best "bang for bucks" in terms of price and capability. It also seems to have the most "bugs per bang"! I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying the scope, but I do think that the various bugs, and how to avoid or recover from them, should be "officially" made clear to the owners, and of course should be fixed by Rigol as soon as possible.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 05:11:14 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 


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