Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??

[alsetalokin4017]

@JohnPen: As I said when you first reported those things, no amount of waiting will "unfreeze" a truly Frozen scope, and the bug I'm talking about happens when Mem Depth is set to Auto, not 120kpts, and with three or four channels turned on. The 1 us/div timebase is set automatically in the Default setup, so perhaps your "hate to think" is actually.... forever.

But thank you for your report. What Boot Version is your scope running?

[Fungus]

I think I'm going to give this update a miss...   

[Wirehead]

• No Freeze
• No Math issue
• No noticeable slow-down with SP2
• I can live with the spelling error

I'm a happy camper. 

[JohnPen]

There has been a change in some of the hang times in the first list.  Most noticeable it has decreased for the 20usec TB to 22 secs and the 10usec TB to 35 sec.  The second list for 20usec drops to 10 sec response and the 5usec drops from 35 minutes to 3 min 30sec.  I agree Auto is the real problem the other tests were just to see how things changed with various sample rates and with a fixed memory depth.   My boot is 0.0.1.2 like yourself.  My recent resets seem to have cancelled the extended System Info list  and so far I haven't got it back.  Originally I managed it almost the first time!  Also my freeze never needed more than a single channel just the 100ms persistence, Auto memory management and into 'Delayed/Zoom' .  I have the MATHs issue and the spelling.

[alsetalokin4017]

• No Freeze
• No Math issue
• No noticeable slow-down with SP2
• I can live with the spelling error

I'm a happy camper. 

I see you have Boot Ver 0.0.1.3, lucky you.

For the Math error, did you follow my directions exactly? Do you have "Average" Acquire mode set?
 
Does your "Pluse" counter miscount when you have 500 ns/div, ten "pluses" displayed and three or four channels turned on?

Would you be happy showing the "Pluses" spelling error on a data screen to a client who is paying you money to do some work for him?

[alsetalokin4017]

There has been a change in some of the hang times in the first list.  Most noticeable it has decreased for the 20usec TB to 22 secs and the 10usec TB to 35 sec.  The second list for 20usec drops to 10 sec response and the 5usec drops from 35 minutes to 3 min 30sec.  I agree Auto is the real problem the other tests were just to see how things changed with various sample rates and with a fixed memory depth.   My boot is 0.0.1.2 like yourself.  My recent resets seem to have cancelled the extended System Info list  and so far I haven't got it back.  Originally I managed it almost the first time!  Also my freeze never needed more than a single channel just the 100ms persistence, Auto memory management and into 'Delayed/Zoom' .  I have the MATHs issue and the spelling.

You have to press the Trigger Menu>Menu>Force>Menu>>Utility>System>System Info sequence _really fast_. But on mine, once it does it once, then I always get the full System Info and I don't have to do the Trigger Menu sequence any more.

[Karel]

With 00.04.03.SP1 I could not reproduce the freeze bug (maybe I did something wrong, don't know anymore).
After updating to 00.04.03.SP2 I do have the freeze bug. Scope feels more sluggish as well.
I tried to go back to older firmware, got an error.

sn DS1ZA17xxxxxxx
firmware version 00.04.03.02.03
board version 0.1.1
boot version 0.0.1.2
firmware version 0.2.3.11
CPLD version 1.1
build date Sep 11 2015 09:42:31 | 0 0:4 / 4 0:38

[Fungus]

Jason, it appears there are two versions of boot firmware sitting on customers scopes (BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2 and BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3). My oscilloscope shipped with 0.0.1.3 boot and 00.04.03.00.01 software, I don't have the freeze issue.

I have boot version 0.0.1.1   

[Bud]

So how does it feel when rigol is wasting your time that you could otherwise spent working on your projects. Still think your purchase was "best for the buck" ?

[Fungus]

So how does it feel when rigol is wasting your time that you could otherwise spent working on your projects. Still think your purchase was "best for the buck" ?

Yes! 

[alsetalokin4017]

So what do we know at this point...

1. The scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 do not seem to have the Freeze Bug.
2. The Freeze Bug is _not_ fixed by the new SP2 firmware on susceptible scopes that have the 0.0.1.2 Boot Version.
3. The Math Error is _not_ fixed by the new SP2 firmware on at least some scopes. Boot Version dependence isn't known at this point.
4. The SP2 firmware causes at least some scopes to respond more slowly to control inputs, especially when all 4 channels are turned on.
5. The SP2 firmware has that stupid "Pluses" spelling error.
6. The "Pluses" counter miscounts in certain situations, like when 3 or 4 channels are turned on and timebase is set to 500 ns/div and 10 "pluses" are displayed.
7. There doesn't seem to be any way to revert back to SP1 once the SP2 firmware is installed.
8. Installing the firmware update does not change the scope's Boot Version to the latest version.
9. You have to press the key sequence _really really fast_ to get the full System Info screen.
10. It doesn't matter if the scope is "unlocked" with all options "official" and 100MHz bw, or if it is "stock" with 50 MHz bw and no options enabled.
11. Installing the SP2 firmware does not interfere with the "unlocking" of the options and increased bw.

Any comments or additions?

[alsetalokin4017]

So how does it feel when rigol is wasting your time that you could otherwise spent working on your projects. Still think your purchase was "best for the buck" ?

The scope has become my project at this point. Yes, I do feel that it is still a good value for the money, and if we continue to explore and identify the bugs _and if_ Rigol manages to fix them, it will be a great product. I wouldn't send mine back for a refund, but I might demand to send it back for a replacement that has the correct Boot Version on it and that does not lock up in normal use, and that has trustworthy Math performance.

But I certainly would NOT recommend installing the SP2 firmware at this point. You can always count your "pluses" manually. I wish there was some way to uninstall the SP2 firmware and go back to the well-understood (by me anyway) SP1 version. And I wish that a firmware update would also put the newest Boot Version on the scopes. It is rather asinine that it does not.

It's interesting, is it not, that the SP2 firmware has a "build date" in mid September, but has only been released to users at the end of October.... and still it has that stupid "Pluses" error and the other problems.

[l84coffee]

So how does it feel when rigol is wasting your time that you could otherwise spent working on your projects. Still think your purchase was "best for the buck" ?

The real question is, if you are one of the un-fortunate ones that do have the freeze problem. In day to day usage of the scope how many times do you think you would be using the scope in the parameters that would cause it to freeze?
For me even though I don't experience the freeze problem, I would have never experienced it as I doubt I would have set up my scope in such a way to experience it.
Warts and all I still think it's a great scope for the price point.
Stan. 

[alsetalokin4017]

So how does it feel when rigol is wasting your time that you could otherwise spent working on your projects. Still think your purchase was "best for the buck" ?

The real question is, if you are one of the un-fortunate ones that do have the freeze problem. In day to day usage of the scope how many times do you think you would be using the scope in the parameters that would cause it to freeze?
For me even though I don't experience the freeze problem, I would have never experienced it as I doubt I would have set up my scope in such a way to experience it.
Warts and all I still think it's a great scope for the price point.
Stan.

I've just shot a new video showing how easy it is to encounter the Freeze Bug in actual usage. It should be up and ready to view in an hour or so (after processing and uploading to YT).

Situation: Looking at a mosfet Gate signal on one channel and the Drain signal on the other channel, just 2 channels in use. Acquire mode normal, mem depth auto, timebase set appropriately for the 10 kHz signal to display a train of around 5 pulses (50 us/div). Trigger on falling edge of Gate pulse. Drain signal has a spike and ringdown. Enter Zoom mode to see the spike and ringdown at higher resolution. Notice that there is a little jitter on the Drain signal, so it would be nice to add a little persistence to see the extent of the jitter. Select Display>PersisTime>100 ms... and boom, scope is frozen.

Now what is unreasonable, unusual or otherwise not normal about that usage? Should one not use the normal operating features of the scope for fear of the dreaded Freeze Bug?

[Karel]

So how does it feel when rigol is wasting your time that you could otherwise spent working on your projects. Still think your purchase was "best for the buck" ?

The real question is, if you are one of the un-fortunate ones that do have the freeze problem. In day to day usage of the scope how many times do you think you would be using the scope in the parameters that would cause it to freeze?
For me even though I don't experience the freeze problem, I would have never experienced it as I doubt I would have set up my scope in such a way to experience it.
Warts and all I still think it's a great scope for the price point.
Stan.

I never stumbled over this freeze bug. I have to say however, I don't use the scope much. For me, my work is my hobby and there I use a DS6104. I bought the DS1054Z just for fun, to put it next to my pc monitor. I haven't connect it so far to some real circuit. For me it's just a gadget, like other people who bought a smartphone or ipad. I prefer this toy instead.
So far I think it's the best scope for hobbyists.

[Howardlong]

So how does it feel when rigol is wasting your time that you could otherwise spent working on your projects. Still think your purchase was "best for the buck" ?

The real question is, if you are one of the un-fortunate ones that do have the freeze problem. In day to day usage of the scope how many times do you think you would be using the scope in the parameters that would cause it to freeze?
For me even though I don't experience the freeze problem, I would have never experienced it as I doubt I would have set up my scope in such a way to experience it.
Warts and all I still think it's a great scope for the price point.
Stan.

I've just shot a new video showing how easy it is to encounter the Freeze Bug in actual usage. It should be up and ready to view in an hour or so (after processing and uploading to YT).

Situation: Looking at a mosfet Gate signal on one channel and the Drain signal on the other channel, just 2 channels in use. Acquire mode normal, mem depth auto, timebase set appropriately for the 10 kHz signal to display a train of around 5 pulses (50 us/div). Trigger on falling edge of Gate pulse. Drain signal has a spike and ringdown. Enter Zoom mode to see the spike and ringdown at higher resolution. Notice that there is a little jitter on the Drain signal, so it would be nice to add a little persistence to see the extent of the jitter. Select Display>PersisTime>100 ms... and boom, scope is frozen.

Now what is unreasonable, unusual or otherwise not normal about that usage? Should one not use the normal operating features of the scope for fear of the dreaded Freeze Bug?

While I'm by no means excusing the freeze, it's extremely rare for me to need to use display persistence, in fact I can't ever remembering using it on a general purpose scope other than for demonstrating a scope feature. If I see some jitter, I am not sure how much value adding persistence is: either it's OK (maybe interrupt latency for example) or it's not, although I guess if you want documentary evidence I can see it could be of value. (I'm assuming this is real jitter and not the scope of course!). I fully accept YMMV of course.

I do applaud you for using pretty much every feature on this scope, Rigol should pay you to rest their stuff!

[alsetalokin4017]

I completely agree with that last part!

But don't you remember Dave's great videos about this scope, where he was ecstatic about the great intensity graded display variable persistence feature? It's one of the things that makes this scope such a good value. Why not use it when you can? Unless of course it makes the scope freeze up in normal (my normal) use of the scope.

[alsetalokin4017]

FWIW....

[Scottjd]

Jason, it appears there are two versions of boot firmware sitting on customers scopes (BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2 and BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3). My oscilloscope shipped with 0.0.1.3 boot and 00.04.03.00.01 software, I don't have the freeze issue.

I have boot version 0.0.1.1   

I think it's because you have an "EVIL" number of start up cycles. 

[Howardlong]

I completely agree with that last part!

But don't you remember Dave's great videos about this scope, where he was ecstatic about the great intensity graded display variable persistence feature? It's one of the things that makes this scope such a good value. Why not use it when you can? Unless of course it makes the scope freeze up in normal (my normal) use of the scope.

I may be mistaken, but usually it's intensity gradient, not persistence that Dave bangs on about? Persistence != intensity gradient.

[Loboscope]

I followed EXACTLY the instructions mentioned above and my DS1104Z (true 100 MHz) does not show the freeze and/or the math bug. It also did not show these bugs with earlier software versions.

The software Version is the newest 00.04.03.02.03 (= 04.03 SP2)
Board Version: 0.1.1
Boot Version: 0.0.1.0 (!)
Firmware Version 0.2.3.11
CPLD Version: 1.1

I did not check the "pluses"-error because it would not bother me. I use the scope only for my own service and maintenance purpose (mostly audio gear) and not in a commercial way for clients, so i am not upset about the spelling error. (By the way, how many EE´s, who use their scopes for commercial tasks an for clients will use only such a little and inexpensive scope like the DS1000Z? I guess, they would prefer normally much more expensive and feature rich scopes like LeCroy, Keysight etc.)

[Fennec]

I think it doesn't matter how much a scope cost. If it's a cheap DS1000Z series or an one million bucks LeCroy. It has to work, simple.
For example. U buy a brand new car, a $US 15.000 Honda maybe and the ash tray is damaged, u are not smoking.. What are u doing ? I bet you go to a Honda customer and let fix this. And now you won in the lottery and buy a Bentley with the same cheap broken ash-tray.... What u do ? Live with it ? I bet not.

Why nobody should use this DS1054Z as a "prfessional" ? If you repair Tape-Decks, Recorder and something like that you can do it with this cheap DS1054Z absolutly professional. You don't need a one million LeCroy for that. But the Scope has to work correctly. With a damaged one million LeCroy nobody can repair the Tape-Deck, but you can do it with a working cheap Rigol.   

Cheap or expencive, it has to work correctly, thats all.

Pls can you post a screenshot with all the Infos. Thx.
   

[alsetalokin4017]

Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only one who is actually trying to _use_ the scope every day for its intended purposes.

Or maybe I'm wrong about that... maybe the actual intended purpose of the scope is just to sit next to the computer monitor and make pretty colored squiggly lines.

[alsetalokin4017]

I followed EXACTLY the instructions mentioned above and my DS1104Z (true 100 MHz) does not show the freeze and/or the math bug. It also did not show these bugs with earlier software versions.

The software Version is the newest 00.04.03.02.03 (= 04.03 SP2)
Board Version: 0.1.1
Boot Version: 0.0.1.0 (!)
Firmware Version 0.2.3.11
CPLD Version: 1.1

I did not check the "pluses"-error because it would not bother me. I use the scope only for my own service and maintenance purpose (mostly audio gear) and not in a commercial way for clients, so i am not upset about the spelling error. (By the way, how many EE´s, who use their scopes for commercial tasks an for clients will use only such a little and inexpensive scope like the DS1000Z? I guess, they would prefer normally much more expensive and feature rich scopes like LeCroy, Keysight etc.)

Good for you. I don't think anyone has ever accused the DS1104Z of having the bugs we have been talking about here, though. See the title of this thread? Did you vote in the poll, even though you don't have the right scope to do so, I wonder?
 
Certainly I would prefer to have a much more expensive and feature rich scope for my work. Would you like to buy one for me? No... I'll bet not. So I'll continue to use what I can afford, and try to work around the seemingly _ever increasing_ bug load.

[Fungus]

For example. U buy a brand new car, a $US 15.000 Honda maybe and the ash tray is damaged, u are not smoking.. What are u doing ? I bet you go to a Honda customer and let fix this. And now you won in the lottery and buy a Bentley with the same cheap broken ash-tray.... What u do ? Live with it ? I bet not.

I can tell you've never bought a new car.