Poll

Can you reproduce the Freeze-up Bug as described in this thread?

Yes, can reproduce the freezing.
42 (40%)
No, can't reproduce the freezing.
63 (60%)

Total Members Voted: 100

Author Topic: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??  (Read 138487 times)

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Offline Wirehead

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #300 on: November 02, 2015, 06:10:09 am »
  • No Freeze
  • No Math issue
  • No noticeable slow-down with SP2
  • I can live with the spelling error :)

I'm a happy camper.  :D
I see you have Boot Ver 0.0.1.3, lucky you.

For the Math error, did you follow my directions exactly? Do you have "Average" Acquire mode set?
 
Does your "Pluse" counter miscount when you have 500 ns/div, ten "pluses" displayed and three or four channels turned on?

Would you be happy showing the "Pluses" spelling error on a data screen to a client who is paying you money to do some work for him?

Forgot the averaging - my apologies. It does have the skew in timebase (result is 1 div to the right) if averaging is set.  Seems more like a cosmetic mistake; as the actual calculation is correct.

My pulse counter is correct - maybe it's due to ringing on the square wave with you(as the pictogram actually shows this counts as well...). I'm testing with a clean sine wave, and it's just fine. Again; the "pluses" error doesn't bother me. If I would write a report to a client (I'm not in electronic engineering as work; but in IT) - I would make note of the pulses in my document that goes along with the screenshot in that case. I bet most of my clients would be able to count the "bigger waveforms" (e.g. not the ringing) without problems...

I've attached a screenshot - 9 full pulses in the screenshot. It adjusts it correctly if I change the frequency.

For others reading all this about the DS1000Z series: although this might look bad: It's still an awesome scope for the money. There's currently nothing on the market price/performance-wise that's better than this. Don't let this put you off. I fully agree the freezing issue is annoying (it's fixed in the newer bootcodes btw!!); but hey; It's bound to be fixed in the end for the older ones, and if you know the limitation, it's easy enough NOT to run into it (there's a lot more expensive scopes on the market, even from big names, that have way more issues). As to the math issue in combination with averaging; to me, it's more a cosmetic issue. The math is actually correct. If I calculate A+B; I kind of know what to expect (you still have to interpret whatever you see - I don't see you guys driving off a cliff because your GPS said so...) ; so If it's skewed in time due to calculation; It's not a big deal to me...
"to remain static is to lose ground"
 

Online edavid

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #301 on: November 02, 2015, 06:42:59 am »
Good for you. I don't think anyone has ever accused the DS1104Z of having the bugs we have been talking about here, though. See the title of this thread? Did you vote in the poll, even though you don't have the right scope to do so, I wonder?

How could it not have the same bugs as the DS1054Z?  Isn't the hardware and firmware exactly the same?  :-//
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #302 on: November 02, 2015, 07:15:49 am »
Good for you. I don't think anyone has ever accused the DS1104Z of having the bugs we have been talking about here, though. See the title of this thread? Did you vote in the poll, even though you don't have the right scope to do so, I wonder?

How could it not have the same bugs as the DS1054Z?  Isn't the hardware and firmware exactly the same?  :-//

Not all DS1054Z owners have been able to reproduce the bug either.  :-//
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #303 on: November 02, 2015, 07:36:15 am »
Or maybe I'm wrong about that... maybe the actual intended purpose of the scope is just to sit next to the computer monitor and make pretty colored squiggly lines.

In my case, it is... ;)
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #304 on: November 02, 2015, 08:02:54 am »
Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only one who is actually trying to _use_ the scope every day for its intended purposes.

Or maybe I'm wrong about that... maybe the actual intended purpose of the scope is just to sit next to the computer monitor and make pretty colored squiggly lines.

No, I just think that you have invested a lot of time learning all that this scope has to offer, and choose to use all of its functionality, much of it at the same time. Personally speaking, the Rigol is not my main scope, I use it when off site due to its diminutive size and features (I have the MSO1074Z-S with the LA and signal generator). In addition if it gets broken or lost, it's not as big a deal as a $20k scope. I too have found some less than desirable features, such as mis-triggering on he LA, but I can live with them. I certainly don't use all the features like pass-fail or persistence like you do, but then in my line of work I haven't found a need of these features in a general purpose scope.

Again, that is not excusing the bugs, particularly the freezing, which can have a serious impact on your workflow, you end up spending hours debugging your scope and not your DUT.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #305 on: November 02, 2015, 08:07:32 am »
I think it doesn't matter how much a scope cost. If it's a cheap DS1000Z series or an one million bucks LeCroy. It has to work, simple.
For example. U buy a brand new car, a $US 15.000 Honda maybe and the ash tray is damaged, u are not smoking.. What are u doing ? I bet you go to a Honda customer and let fix this. And now you won in the lottery and buy a Bentley with the same cheap broken ash-tray.... What u do ? Live with it ? I bet not.

Why nobody should use this DS1054Z as a "prfessional" ? If you repair Tape-Decks, Recorder and something like that you can do it with this cheap DS1054Z absolutly professional. You don't need a one million LeCroy for that. But the Scope has to work correctly. With a damaged one million LeCroy nobody can repair the Tape-Deck, but you can do it with a working cheap Rigol.   

Cheap or expencive, it has to work correctly, thats all.

Pls can you post a screenshot with all the Infos. Thx.
 

After all, you can always buy a Tek MDO3000 for over 10x the price and still enjoy those freezes, just in a much more reassuringly expensive way! ;-)
 

Offline Loboscope

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #306 on: November 02, 2015, 09:42:13 am »
I am happy, because my DS1104Z still works as it should work. If it would freeze periodically, I would call it defect and I would return it.
The math-bug (whitch it does not show) would be a borderline defect for me, certainly a bug, but not a real failure, because I could work with it. The "pluses"-bug is a bit irritating but it does not effect the usefullness of the scope.
And the DS1000Z-Series is a very useful and wonderful entry-level scopes series with the most "bang for the bucks"!
Sure it can be used in a professional way, but you should know its limitations. If you buy a cheap little car instead of a grand, luxurious limousine you shold not expect the comfort on the road, the road-handling, the smooth steering etc. of the grand car. It is not, because the little car is defect, it is because of physics. But you did only pay a fraction of the limousine-price! And knowing how to drive you will go down well to any destination the limousine can reach (perhaps even more because you will easier find parking spaces for the little car  ;)).
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #307 on: November 02, 2015, 12:43:59 pm »
So how does it feel when rigol is wasting your time that you could otherwise spent working on your projects. Still think your purchase was "best for the buck" ?
If you're willing to buy me a Keysight or Tek as a gift, I'll gladly take it. But don't put down and look down upon people who've chosen a cheaper product, you never know what their reasons are. (For example, electronics is what I've been doing to pass the time while taking a health related leave from employment and deciding what my next career might be. With zero income, buying top of the line test gear is perhaps not the best use of my money.)
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #308 on: November 02, 2015, 01:15:41 pm »
So how does it feel when rigol is wasting your time that you could otherwise spent working on your projects. Still think your purchase was "best for the buck" ?

Feels like I got a small, compact scope I use every day, and I don't ever run into any of these bugs...and all for less than $400. So it feels pretty good, actually. So how does it feel that you keep making these disruptive posts in the Rigol threads and no one "gives a crap"?

Give it a rest already. The Rigol is a steal, even with a handful of bugs.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 01:18:12 pm by John Coloccia »
 

Offline RigolUS_Apps

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #309 on: November 02, 2015, 04:45:33 pm »
To display the full version information:
- In the trigger area on the front panel, press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU
- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO
- Save a copy of the display by inserting a USB memory device (FAT32 format) into the front panel USB slot and press the Quick Print icon

Jason, it appears there are two versions of boot firmware sitting on customers scopes (BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2 and BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3). My oscilloscope shipped with 0.0.1.3 boot and 00.04.03.00.01 software, I don't have the freeze issue.

Since firmware update 00.04.00.00.00 there doesn't seem to have been an update provided that contains a boot firmware update. I have not tried to unpack that specific version so I cannot see what boot firmware that update contains, however it seems that the software may use the software version in first line of the boot firmware .GEL file to see if it's a valid newer update.

If there have been no hardware refreshes, could it be possible that during manufacturing old boot firmware on oscilloscopes was present but failed being updated because the software had already been updated?

There has got to be some reason why people are on BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2.

Thank you, Shock. We really need people experiencing issues to report the full version page to their local service office. We can then compile the differences and give our Engineering team as much information as we can.

If you are experiencing the issue, I would like to ask that you please follow the directions below:

To check and display the full system information:
- In the trigger area on the front panel, quickly press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU
- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO
- Save a copy of the display by inserting a USB memory device (FAT32 format) into the front panel USB slot and press the Quick Print icon

The instrument should report that the Software Version is 00.04.03SP2 (identical to 00.04.03.02.03).

If it does not, please upgrade your instrument to the latest revision.

The latest release of firmware for the DS1000Z series can be requested from this registration page:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm?

If you continue to have difficulties with your oscilloscope, please contact your local Rigol Support Office with the full instrument identification information.

Rigol North American Technical Support:
http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/

Rigol European Technical Support:
http://www.rigol.eu/tech-support/

Rigol Support for other geographies:
EMD_support@rigol.com
 

Online edavid

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #310 on: November 02, 2015, 04:54:49 pm »
If you are experiencing the issue, I would like to ask that you please follow the directions below:

To check and display the full system information:
- In the trigger area on the front panel, quickly press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU
- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO
- Save a copy of the display by inserting a USB memory device (FAT32 format) into the front panel USB slot and press the Quick Print icon
Why should people have to go through this silly dance to get the full system information?  Why isn't full information the default?

Quote
The latest release of firmware for the DS1000Z series can be requested from this registration page:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm?
Why don't you provide the actual download link?  Other Rigol employees don't seem to have a problem doing so.  No one wants to fill out that stupid form.

Anyway, what is the story with the original freeze-up bug?  Was it reproduced by engineering?  Do they know if it's related to the boot loader version as Mr. 4017 believes?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 05:04:17 pm by edavid »
 

Offline RigolUS_Apps

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #311 on: November 02, 2015, 06:20:36 pm »
Hello edavid,

The full system information is useful in providing additional build details about the specific instrument in question. There can be multiple differences on the same platform and having those details can help the Engineers find the root of the problem more quickly.

The full system information is not displayed normally because it is generally not required for day-to-day operation. The normal system info screen is designed to provide just enough detail to solve any pertinent questions that may arise (does this firmware version have a particular feature, for example).

Some situations require more information to help isolate a particular cause or incompatibility. That is why there is a more detailed view available.

In this case, this lock up bug appears to be intermittent. Since it is not tied solely to a specific firmware revision, we need more information to isolate the cause and find a solution.

We are collecting this information and forwarding it to our Engineering department for review.
 

Offline SLJ

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #312 on: November 02, 2015, 06:22:19 pm »
Quote
The latest release of firmware for the DS1000Z series can be requested from this registration page:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm?
Why don't you provide the actual download link?  Other Rigol employees don't seem to have a problem doing so.  No one wants to fill out that stupid form.

Your answer is on the form:  To request an upgrade please fill out the information below and we will contact you. Upgrade compatibility may depend on the serial number, hardware revisions and current firmware of your instrument. Not all instruments may be upgradable to the latest firmware.

If they just provided links you can bet some would try to upgrade when they shouldn't and that could be a problem.  Of course the upgrade should check for compatibility but who knows.

Online edavid

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #313 on: November 02, 2015, 06:45:14 pm »
The full system information is useful in providing additional build details about the specific instrument in question. There can be multiple differences on the same platform and having those details can help the Engineers find the root of the problem more quickly.

The full system information is not displayed normally because it is generally not required for day-to-day operation. The normal system info screen is designed to provide just enough detail to solve any pertinent questions that may arise (does this firmware version have a particular feature, for example).

Some situations require more information to help isolate a particular cause or incompatibility. That is why there is a more detailed view available.

What would be the harm in providing the full information all the time?  Do you think Rigol owners would freak out if they saw those extra fields?

Or if you insist on having 2 modes, why not make the full information option visible, instead of requiring the undocumented, hard to execute dance step?

Quote
In this case, this lock up bug appears to be intermittent. Since it is not tied solely to a specific firmware revision, we need more information to isolate the cause and find a solution.

Why don't you swap out 4017's scope and send it to engineering, since it shows the problem deterministically?
 

Online edavid

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #314 on: November 02, 2015, 06:47:48 pm »
Quote
The latest release of firmware for the DS1000Z series can be requested from this registration page:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm?
Why don't you provide the actual download link?  Other Rigol employees don't seem to have a problem doing so.  No one wants to fill out that stupid form.

Your answer is on the form:  To request an upgrade please fill out the information below and we will contact you. Upgrade compatibility may depend on the serial number, hardware revisions and current firmware of your instrument. Not all instruments may be upgradable to the latest firmware.

If they just provided links you can bet some would try to upgrade when they shouldn't and that could be a problem.  Of course the upgrade should check for compatibility but who knows.

This is just not true for the DS1054Z.   There is only one version of the firmware, which is compatible with all of the units that have been shipped.  That's why other Rigol employees do post the download link, just not our new poster Mr. Anonymous RigolUS_Apps.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #315 on: November 02, 2015, 07:14:25 pm »
So what do we know at this point...

1. The scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 do not seem to have the Freeze Bug.
Any comments or additions?

I don't have it with boot 0.0.1.1

(but personally I think the boot version is a red herring, I think there's something more sinister going on here)

« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 07:20:36 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline giovannirat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #316 on: November 02, 2015, 08:15:17 pm »
Boot Ver 0.0.1.2  can't reproduce the freeze bug.......  :)
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #317 on: November 02, 2015, 08:59:59 pm »
Quote
The latest release of firmware for the DS1000Z series can be requested from this registration page:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm?
Why don't you provide the actual download link?  Other Rigol employees don't seem to have a problem doing so.  No one wants to fill out that stupid form.

Your answer is on the form:  To request an upgrade please fill out the information below and we will contact you. Upgrade compatibility may depend on the serial number, hardware revisions and current firmware of your instrument. Not all instruments may be upgradable to the latest firmware.

If they just provided links you can bet some would try to upgrade when they shouldn't and that could be a problem.  Of course the upgrade should check for compatibility but who knows.

This is just not true for the DS1054Z.   There is only one version of the firmware, which is compatible with all of the units that have been shipped.  That's why other Rigol employees do post the download link, just not our new poster Mr. Anonymous RigolUS_Apps.
I think you best have another look at this supposed newbies profile.

Registered since June 2012 and it takes three years to start offering customers support.  :palm:
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Marcos

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #318 on: November 02, 2015, 09:27:40 pm »
Dear RigolUSA , the fact that mostly scopes with Boot Vers : 0.0.1.2 have this freeze bug isn't enough for your Engineers to have a starting point for finding the problem ?
You said earlier that the new firmware "hopefully" will fix the bug.  Hopefully ???
Your engineers are fixing bugs "guessing" that it may fix it or not ? Did they even bothered to test the new firmware into a scope who has the freeze bug ?
You should consider your latest firmware a beta version since it's not fixing anything, just adding more problems.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #319 on: November 02, 2015, 09:36:19 pm »
Hello edavid,

The full system information is useful in providing additional build details about the specific instrument in question. There can be multiple differences on the same platform and having those details can help the Engineers find the root of the problem more quickly.

The full system information is not displayed normally because it is generally not required for day-to-day operation. The normal system info screen is designed to provide just enough detail to solve any pertinent questions that may arise (does this firmware version have a particular feature, for example).

Some situations require more information to help isolate a particular cause or incompatibility. That is why there is a more detailed view available.

In this case, this lock up bug appears to be intermittent. Since it is not tied solely to a specific firmware revision, we need more information to isolate the cause and find a solution.

We are collecting this information and forwarding it to our Engineering department for review.

Why don't you just swap one of the scopes that has the problem (the guy who started this thread would be a good choice). Send him a new one that DOESN'T have the problem, and have him mail his back in the same box. It's not a showstopper bug in the sense that many people are not going to run into it, but it is a pretty major bug. It's not like this is some $20,000 piece of hardware that weighs 100lbs. It's $400 scope and it costs peanuts to ship.

Speaking as an engineer, that's the dream scenario for me if I'm tracking something down, especially if the bug doesn't show up everywhere.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #320 on: November 02, 2015, 09:47:21 pm »
Enough people have encountered this bug that I suspect they've already reproduced the issue, and either they need more information to narrow down the cause, or they know the cause but it's a whopper and they're trying to buy some time ::)

Ease off a bit, they know about it now O0
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #321 on: November 02, 2015, 10:06:20 pm »
Personally, I haven't upgraded my firmware and I don't intend to unless it includes dancing unicorns.  :) The bug is completely irrelevant to anything I do so I'd rather not mess with it. Maybe a couple of years from now when everything is stabilized.
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #322 on: November 02, 2015, 10:10:22 pm »
Don't worry guys, it only took them a year or so to fix all the lock-up bugs on the MSO4000s.   |O

Offline AlexDavidson

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #323 on: November 02, 2015, 10:42:16 pm »
I can't reproduce the freeze. Everything seems to work as expected with latest firmware.
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #324 on: November 03, 2015, 08:56:43 am »
Can anyone with a 'non freezing' DS1054Z repeat some of the longer delay tests I listed in message 275?  I realize that their response times could well be very short but it might be useful to see if there is still a delay time progression as they approach the 1usec TB of total freeze.  I still feel the problem is related to a h/w window of opportunity being on the edge of spec combined with a s/w (f/w) loop that hits the edge of the h/w window.  Since the bug recovers for some TB rates, albeit slowly, and some of my recovery times have improved from the previous f/w build maybe this build has helped some scopes to no longer freeze. 
 


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