Poll

Can you reproduce the Freeze-up Bug as described in this thread?

Yes, can reproduce the freezing.
42 (40%)
No, can't reproduce the freezing.
63 (60%)

Total Members Voted: 100

Author Topic: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??  (Read 138486 times)

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Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #325 on: November 03, 2015, 01:36:30 pm »
The people with freezing seem to be able to do it reliably, even after a factory reset of all settings. If this is the case and it was a simple software bug then everybody would see the same thing.

So...the next poll should be to find out if this is the case. Do people get the freezing reliably after a power-on reset of all user settings?

If it turns out that the freezing IS reliable then I'm leaning towards variance in internal components. Some combination of components is right on the limit for some people and not for others.

And if I were Rigol I'd want to get hold of one of those freezing 'scopes. I'm sure anybody here would be willing to swap theirs for a new one.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 01:39:12 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Marcos

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #326 on: November 03, 2015, 04:18:15 pm »
Most likely is a hardware problem, the bug it's easy to be reproduced even after all settings are reset to factory default state.
But, before all these, please RIGOL, give us a solution to update Boot Vers to : 0.0.1.3
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #327 on: November 03, 2015, 06:28:26 pm »
But, before all these, please RIGOL, give us a solution to update Boot Vers to : 0.0.1.3

Maybe boot isn't updateable...? It might just do initial hardware config then load the firmware. There's no real need to update that.

Anybody know if there's an emergency restore feature if the firmware gets corrupted?

(ie. Can 'boot' re-flash the 'scope from USB?)


 

Offline GonzoTheGreat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #328 on: November 03, 2015, 07:08:27 pm »
1. The scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 do not seem to have the Freeze Bug.
We need a new poll to confirm that.

BTW:  Do you know of the video that shows how quickly the buttons need to be pushed to get the full system info ?
 

Offline GonzoTheGreat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #329 on: November 03, 2015, 07:31:59 pm »
It does have the skew in timebase (result is 1 div to the right) if averaging is set.  Seems more like a cosmetic mistake; as the actual calculation is correct.
You must be joking!  Are you a disciple of superiority of amplitude over phase beliefs?
 

Offline GonzoTheGreat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #330 on: November 03, 2015, 07:44:55 pm »
In this case, this lock up bug appears to be intermittent. Since it is not tied solely to a specific firmware revision, we need more information to isolate the cause and find a solution.
The word "intermittent" implies a random low frequency of occurrence all other things being equal.
Since there are some owners of this scope that experience the Freeze bug and Math phase error bug every time they try it, the word "intermittent" is not applicable.

"With some HW/SW configurations" would be more appropriate...
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #331 on: November 04, 2015, 02:37:34 am »
Gonzo, I'm glad someone is paying attention.

1. The Freeze Bug is NOT intermittent. Some scopes have it and some +may+ not have it (I'm still not convinced that those with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 who "don't" have it are following directions exactly...). If your scope has it, then it will freeze _every time_ that the proper conditions are met. I should have thought this was evident from my videos. An "intermittent" problem happens sometimes and doesn't happen other times and is unpredictable. This problem is totally reproducible every time and is a clear defect, not an "intermittent" fault.

2. The Math error is not just "offset one division". It is more like the horizontal scale of the Math trace is different than that of the two traces that are going into it. That is, the offset is small on the left edge of the screen and is greater on the right edge of the screen. This is one reason why I use a +square wave+  pulse train to illustrate it: it is easy to see that the Math result is not just offset, it is actually _wider_ than it should be on the right edge of the screen. Look carefully at the scopeshots I've attached below. This is also NOT an "intermittent" bug, it occurs reliably whenever the conditions are met.

3.  As far as the "pluses" counter goes, I showed that the counter counts pulses correctly when two channels are on but miscounts when a third channel is on, using _exactly the same_ signal. So this can't be a result of "ringing" or whatever, it's a result of turning on the third channel. Again, please see the scopeshots below. And again, the conditions for this are fairly specific. I can count manually when there are ten pulses on the screen, but can I rely on the "Pluses" counter to be correct in all cases when there are thirty or fifty "pluses" on the screen and I have three channels in use? So really, why should I use the pulse counter at all if it's going to give me a different count depending on how many channels I have turned on?

4. The Rigol USA tech Jason sent me email offering to exchange my scope for a new one that doesn't have the bug, with them paying the shipping both ways. I didn't ask for this, he offered it. So I emailed him back and said OK, fine, send me the new scope and I'll put mine in the box and send it right back to you. He came back and said.... No, I have to send them my scope _first_, with all accessories and etc. and after they receive it _then_ they will send me a new one. Since I use the scope every day, I declined this "kind" offer, and suggested that they simply provide a way to update the Boot Version on those scopes with 0.0.1.2, up to 0.0.1.3 and maybe this will fix it for all of us who have the bug. I mean, what happens if I send them my scope, and then they send me a new one, and it turns out to have unacceptable bugs, or a hardware glitch or something? Then I'm out the use of a scope for _weeks_ perhaps, and I can't abide that. I use my scope every day in my work and I can generally work around the various bugs and annoyances.  I also pointed out that I've spent tens of hours tracking down and explaining and demonstrating the various bugs and that my time is worth something. Heck, if I actually billed Rigol for my time finding problems with their product that they didn't even know about, it would be for a lot more than the cost of a brand new 1054z. So I'm not sending mine back unless they send me a new one FIRST.  At which point I will examine it and test it for the various bugs and annoyances, and if it works as it should, THEN I'll box mine up and ship it back to them. And I'll post how great Rigol Customer Service is and make a YT video extolling the virtues of Rigol and its CS.

So we'll see where it goes from there.


1. The scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 do not seem to have the Freeze Bug.
We need a new poll to confirm that.

BTW:  Do you know of the video that shows how quickly the buttons need to be pushed to get the full system info ?

I don't want to erase or reset the poll that we've already established. As far as I am aware, though, nobody with 0.0.1.3 has reported being able to reproduce the Freeze bug.  I don't know about the Math error though. Hopefully if anyone with 0.0.1.3 _can_ make their scope freeze, they'll report it here, as well as reporting it to Rigol.

I also don't know of a video that shows how quickly the buttons need to be pressed. All I can say at the moment is that pressing them at "normal" speed (my normal) isn't fast enough, as I demonstrated in my last-but-one video on the topic.  So my advice is to practice, and if at first you don't succeed.... press the sequence _even faster_.


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Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #332 on: November 04, 2015, 02:55:10 am »
3.  As far as the "pluses" counter goes, I showed that the counter counts pulses correctly when two channels are on but miscounts when a third channel is on, using _exactly the same_ signal. So this can't be a result of "ringing" or whatever, it's a result of turning on the third channel. Again, please see the scopeshots below. And again, the conditions for this are fairly specific. I can count manually when there are ten pulses on the screen, but can I rely on the "Pluses" counter to be correct in all cases when there are thirty or fifty "pluses" on the screen and I have three channels in use? So really, why should I use the pulse counter at all if it's going to give me a different count depending on how many channels I have turned on?

Silly question, but how did you invoke the pulse counter?  Thx
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #333 on: November 04, 2015, 07:52:05 am »
Silly question, but how did you invoke the pulse counter?  Thx
It's found on the second page of options in the Horizontal Measurment Menu accessed via the soft keys on the left side of the screen.

Hit either +Pulses or -Pulses, and it will display for the active channel/s that are setup for measurement display. You set the channel/s to show measurements by hitting the MEAS menu key, then choose Source on the soft key menu, and select the channels you want (CH1, CH2, CH3, CH4, or Math).
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #334 on: November 04, 2015, 09:54:06 am »
I can duplicate *4017 results for the 'Pluse' counting.  However I have found that it only occurs when Acquire 'Average' is set.  All other Acquire modes show the count correctly.  There appear to be 2 ways of achieving an accurate count either only use 2 displayed channels alternatively if needing all 4 channels DO NOT use Acquire mode set on 'Average'.  I have tried up to 38 pulses on the Display rather sad!
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #335 on: November 04, 2015, 10:20:29 am »
Gonzo, I'm glad someone is paying attention.

1. The Freeze Bug is NOT intermittent.

I've been saying that for ages. If it's not intermittent and some people have it and some don't then it's hardware related, not just software.

I declined this "kind" offer, and suggested that they simply provide a way to update the Boot Version on those scopes with 0.0.1.2, up to 0.0.1.3
a) Maybe boot isn't updateable
b) Why would that fix it? "Boot" suggests that it's only there to get the 'scope started. Once the firmware is loaded then maybe boot does nothing at all.

If more people with 0.0.1.2 have the bug than 0.0.1.3 then it could be related to date of manufacture.
 

Offline Gabri74

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #336 on: November 04, 2015, 11:59:07 am »
I'm prepared to believe that scopes with Boot Ver 0.0.1.3 don't have the Freeze Bug. But I'm confused as to why some people with Boot Ver 0.0.1.2 can't reproduce it either.

Here are simple instructions, again, that always work for me.

1. Power on scope. When it has finished booting up:

2. Go to Storage and press Default (at bottom of first Storage menu page) to load the Default setup. This should turn on only CH1, 1 V/div, 1.00 us/div, etc.
--This step is just to make sure we are all starting from the same place.--

3. Go to Acquire and make sure that Normal mode is set and Mem Depth is Auto.
--This should already be set by the Default setup but check anyhow.--

4. Turn on all 4 channels.
--It is not necessary to separate the traces vertically.--

5. Go to Display and set Persis. Time to 100 ms.
--Actually any Persis.Time other than "min" will also cause freezing.--

6. Press the Horizontal Scale knob to enter Horizontal Zoom mode.

--- my scope freezes here 100 percent of the time. ---

Cannot reproduce using this exact sequence. Tried multiple times  :-//
Latest update with bootloader 0.0.1.2

 

Offline Orange

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #337 on: November 04, 2015, 12:10:38 pm »
Gonzo, I'm glad someone is paying attention.

1. The Freeze Bug is NOT intermittent.

I've been saying that for ages. If it's not intermittent and some people have it and some don't then it's hardware related, not just software.

I declined this "kind" offer, and suggested that they simply provide a way to update the Boot Version on those scopes with 0.0.1.2, up to 0.0.1.3
a) Maybe boot isn't updateable
b) Why would that fix it? "Boot" suggests that it's only there to get the 'scope started. Once the firmware is loaded then maybe boot does nothing at all.

If more people with 0.0.1.2 have the bug than 0.0.1.3 then it could be related to date of manufacture.
It just crossed my mind that the  boot code could also set CPU operating flags and settings, like memory access time etc. These settings are then used to make hardware properly operating, I'm thinking on RAM and wait states for certain board revisions.
The boot code is located inside the CPU, at least on a Blackfin CPU, not sure on a ARM processor.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #338 on: November 04, 2015, 12:41:58 pm »
The boot code is located inside the CPU, at least on a Blackfin CPU, not sure on a ARM processor.

Might only be updateable with JTAG or something like that.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #339 on: November 04, 2015, 12:46:28 pm »
I'm prepared to believe that scopes with Boot Ver 0.0.1.3 don't have the Freeze Bug. But I'm confused as to why some people with Boot Ver 0.0.1.2 can't reproduce it either.

Here are simple instructions, again, that always work for me.

....

--- my scope freezes here 100 percent of the time. ---

Cannot reproduce using this exact sequence. Tried multiple times  :-//
Latest update with bootloader 0.0.1.2
Mine doesn't freeze either, Boot Ver 0.0.1.1

So... I'm going to declare it a hardware problem. Definitely not a pure software bug.

May be fixable with a firmware update to adjust an internal timing or something like that (if Rigol get their ass in gear).

« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 12:49:17 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #340 on: November 04, 2015, 01:25:17 pm »
Gonzo, I'm glad someone is paying attention.

1. The Freeze Bug is NOT intermittent.

I've been saying that for ages. If it's not intermittent and some people have it and some don't then it's hardware related, not just software.

I declined this "kind" offer, and suggested that they simply provide a way to update the Boot Version on those scopes with 0.0.1.2, up to 0.0.1.3
a) Maybe boot isn't updateable
b) Why would that fix it? "Boot" suggests that it's only there to get the 'scope started. Once the firmware is loaded then maybe boot does nothing at all.

If more people with 0.0.1.2 have the bug than 0.0.1.3 then it could be related to date of manufacture.
It just crossed my mind that the  boot code could also set CPU operating flags and settings, like memory access time etc. These settings are then used to make hardware properly operating, I'm thinking on RAM and wait states for certain board revisions.
The boot code is located inside the CPU, at least on a Blackfin CPU, not sure on a ARM processor.
It depends on what version of arm processor. And even versions deviate if a company just buys the royalties, then they can take that basic recommended version royalty and add/change the design. Sometimes for the better "iPhone A8/A9" and sometimes for the worse.
Some companies set the boot to lock, since this has always been a first avenue for hacking hardware. When the lock is set even the maker can not update it, or sometimes the chip needs completely erases to unlock it. But you can't erase the processors code and still process the updated. So the erase has to be done back at the factory usually. And most are not willing to release the jtag or other methods (STI/AVR) code and let the customer erase it since it's easy to brick it and companies usually won't trust the customer at this level, or are afraid they will leak the code.
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Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #341 on: November 04, 2015, 01:30:02 pm »

4. The Rigol USA tech Jason sent me email offering to exchange my scope for a new one that doesn't have the bug, with them paying the shipping both ways. I didn't ask for this, he offered it. So I emailed him back and said OK, fine, send me the new scope and I'll put mine in the box and send it right back to you. He came back and said.... No, I have to send them my scope _first_, with all accessories and etc. and after they receive it _then_ they will send me a new one. Since I use the scope every day, I declined this "kind" offer, and suggested that they simply provide a way to update the Boot Version on those scopes with 0.0.1.2, up to 0.0.1.3 and maybe this will fix it for all of us who have the bug. I mean, what happens if I send them my scope, and then they send me a new one, and it turns out to have unacceptable bugs, or a hardware glitch or something? Then I'm out the use of a scope for _weeks_ perhaps, and I can't abide that. I use my scope every day in my work and I can generally work around the various bugs and annoyances.  I also pointed out that I've spent tens of hours tracking down and explaining and demonstrating the various bugs and that my time is worth something. Heck, if I actually billed Rigol for my time finding problems with their product that they didn't even know about, it would be for a lot more than the cost of a brand new 1054z. So I'm not sending mine back unless they send me a new one FIRST.  At which point I will examine it and test it for the various bugs and annoyances, and if it works as it should, THEN I'll box mine up and ship it back to them. And I'll post how great Rigol Customer Service is and make a YT video extolling the virtues of Rigol and its CS
I've worked with Jason in the past, he can be reasonable.
Maybe ask if they can do an advanced replacement like some other companies have with me, like apple and Cisco. This is were they charge the credit card, or I think it may be just an authorization. Send you a new one and give you 2/3 weeks to return the old one. If they don't get the old one then your charge will become final and you one two of them.
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Offline akkarin

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Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #342 on: November 04, 2015, 04:28:16 pm »
Hey guys, I am a bit late to the party but I have the bugs as well just tried it and confirmed it.

Software version 00.04.02.04.07
Board version 0.1.1
Boot version 0.1.2
Firmware version 0.2.3.11
CPLD 1.1

I haven't updated the firmware to the latest version yet I know. But from what I read it does not make a difference anyway...?
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #343 on: November 04, 2015, 04:37:19 pm »
software: 04.02.04.07
Board 1.1
Boot 1.2
Firmware 2.3.11
CPLD 1.1

I have the freeze bug, though not as bad as the OP (mine occasionally recovers depending on the time base setting).
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #344 on: November 04, 2015, 07:30:11 pm »
Silly question, but how did you invoke the pulse counter?  Thx
It's found on the second page of options in the Horizontal Measurment Menu accessed via the soft keys on the left side of the screen.

Hit either +Pulses or -Pulses, and it will display for the active channel/s that are setup for measurement display. You set the channel/s to show measurements by hitting the MEAS menu key, then choose Source on the soft key menu, and select the channels you want (CH1, CH2, CH3, CH4, or Math).

Thanks

Perhaps these two (+Pluses and -Pulses) are measurement features unique to the 1054 that are not found in the Rigol DS2000 series?
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #345 on: November 04, 2015, 09:35:38 pm »
Silly question, but how did you invoke the pulse counter?  Thx
It's found on the second page of options in the Horizontal Measurment Menu accessed via the soft keys on the left side of the screen.

Hit either +Pulses or -Pulses, and it will display for the active channel/s that are setup for measurement display. You set the channel/s to show measurements by hitting the MEAS menu key, then choose Source on the soft key menu, and select the channels you want (CH1, CH2, CH3, CH4, or Math).

Thanks

Perhaps these two (+Pluses and -Pulses) are measurement features unique to the 1054 that are not found in the Rigol DS2000 series?
Not sure, I've never had access to a DS2000 series.

But FWIW, the DS1000Z series just got another page of measurements added to that particular menu in the latest firmware release. So it may get added in the near future.  :-//
 

Offline Orange

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #346 on: November 04, 2015, 10:35:49 pm »
Silly question, but how did you invoke the pulse counter?  Thx
It's found on the second page of options in the Horizontal Measurment Menu accessed via the soft keys on the left side of the screen.

Hit either +Pulses or -Pulses, and it will display for the active channel/s that are setup for measurement display. You set the channel/s to show measurements by hitting the MEAS menu key, then choose Source on the soft key menu, and select the channels you want (CH1, CH2, CH3, CH4, or Math).

Thanks

Perhaps these two (+Pluses and -Pulses) are measurement features unique to the 1054 that are not found in the Rigol DS2000 series?
Not sure, I've never had access to a DS2000 series.

But FWIW, the DS1000Z series just got another page of measurements added to that particular menu in the latest firmware release. So it may get added in the near future.  :-//
including the bugs  ;)
Is such feature really usefull ?. To me it looks like a poor mans serial decoder  :)
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #347 on: November 05, 2015, 12:47:19 am »
The 2000 series has been pretty/very good (knock on wood).  It would be great if Rigol can add the pulse measurements and other measurements to the 2000 series with firmware updates - just in case anyone at Rigol reads stuff here  :-+
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #348 on: November 05, 2015, 01:00:38 am »
No freeze here, though it's so ungodly slow in that configuration that I thought it had for a minute... |O

No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #349 on: November 06, 2015, 05:58:56 am »
Here is a little video showing how to get the additional system information menu. I know some had asked for this, so I thought I would do one.
https://youtu.be/jIpxZnxCp_A

Also, I did this video to show a friend how using a computer USB does faster screen shots. He needed to do a lot of screen prints and was taking a long time for him. I shot a fast video to show him the difference in speed, and whoops. The scope froze when I was using the hardwired network to interface to the computer. This happened a couple times when using the network, so if you don't want to find a new bug stick with the USB port on the scope for interfacing to your computer.
https://youtu.be/yHw2lZISa60

I just found it funning that I'm not able to get mine to freeze for every other bug in this long thread, but then find this one. God thing I don't use the network much for the scope anyway.

Don't forget to click on the top of the video to open it in youtube if you want to subscribe. Also depending on your browser you may not be able o change the quality of the video that the forum embeds. If you can make sure you select the settings and choose 720P to see what buttons Im using to change the settings. By default in the forum post it plays at a much lower quality.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 06:02:20 am by Scottjd »
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