Poll

Can you reproduce the Freeze-up Bug as described in this thread?

Yes, can reproduce the freezing.
42 (39.6%)
No, can't reproduce the freezing.
64 (60.4%)

Total Members Voted: 101

Author Topic: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??  (Read 143835 times)

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Online madires

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #375 on: November 13, 2015, 02:56:16 pm »
This has been discussed in another Rigol-related thread (can't find it right now). There is a burr -- a "flash" from the injection molding process -- on either the yellow switch lever or the window in the probe's body. While this did affect my probes, I forgot which part it was... Anyway, this burr prevents the switch from fully reaching the end position. After popping out the yellow bit and removing the burr with a sharp blade, reliability of the switch has much improved for me.

I see. In my case it's the 10x position. I had to extend the cut-out for the yellow slider about a 1mm. I used a mini drill because under the plastic cover there's some metal shielding or frame. And since the slider runs in a recessed area I had to shorten it a 1mm at one side too.

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Offline kalvenk

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #376 on: November 16, 2015, 06:35:25 am »
I believe we are here digging out bugs is not trying to prove the scope is crap but helping Rigol to improve  it better and that eventually will benefit us and Rigol.


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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #377 on: November 22, 2015, 08:41:10 am »
Well... I have some New Developments to report!

First off, Rigol USA and their tech Jason have seen the logic of my position and have sent me a "new" scope, with Boot Version 0.0.1.3.  :-+   I received the New Scope this morning and have been putting it through its paces. They offered to do this replacement (I didn't ask for it originally) because they have not been able to reproduce the Freeze error on any of their scopes... I guess because they don't have any with the older Boot Version on hand. I convinced them that they should send me the new scope first (just scope itself and its calibration certificate, no accessories) before I sent my old one back. So it's happening, I'll be shipping the Old Scope back to them on Monday. They paid for shipping both ways, of course.

Interestingly, this New Scope was delivered with the Old Firmware, SP1, instead of the latest firmware.

Here's what I've found so far.

1. The Freeze Bug does NOT seem to be present on this scope. I have not been able to get it to freeze by any of the usual methods that work reliably on the Old Scope. So that is Great!  I still think that only scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 have the bug.   :-+
However the Blue Zoom Window boundaries don't change reliably when the "Freeze bug" conditions are met and the Horizontal Scale knob is rotated.  :--

2. The Math horizontal error is _still present_ at the 500 ns/div, Average acquire mode setting.    :--

Now, at sometime in the past I noted what was a "minor" bug, that is that when the Units are set to Volts on one channel and Amps on another channel and these are multiplied together to give Watts, the scope was smart enough to indicate "Watts" as the units of the Math trace, but only in the Math menu and the text string that gives the Math scale on the screen, and these correct Units did NOT make it through to the Measurements display or the "All Measure" table, which still indicated "U" or "V" for the units instead of Watts. It turns out that the SP2 firmware fixed this minor issue, Great!   :-+   And this was true on the Old Scope as well, when it was running SP1. Also, Setup files with Math did not load correctly with the old SP1 firmware, on both Old and New scopes.

But as I said, the New Scope was delivered with the SP1 firmware, and so it had this minor error still, and also still did not load Setup files correctly when they had a Math function incorporated in them. Since I use the power computation frequently, and also use stored setups a lot, I decided to upgrade the New Scope to the SP2 firmware.

So I did. And now the Math units are correctly propagated to the Measurements and the All Measure table, and the Setup files now load correctly, as far as I can tell.   :-+

Of course the "Pluses" spelling error is still there, since it comes with the SP2 firmware upgrade.   :--    I can live with that though, since I _know_ that this is simple to fix and they'll at least fix this with the next firmware upgrade.

HOWEVER.... and this is a real pisser..... sometimes the Measurements will simply stop working altogether.   :--   They just stop updating, and the only way that I've found to get them back "live" is to power-cycle the scope. For example, I've just had some traces displayed for some time while doing my forum correspondence, and the measurements were working fine at first. Then I looked over at the scope and found that the measurements had stopped updating, were frozen.  This happened without any input or changes from me this time! It has also happened quite a few times while I've been manipulating the controls during testing. I don't know yet the exact conditions to make this happen, but it's really annoying when it does happen, if I'm actually doing something involving the Measurement values. (Lately I've been testing and debugging and doing efficiency computations on some proprietary LED driver and battery charger circuits, so obviously I want the Measurements to work.) SO this New Bug gets a   :-- .
I think that the Old Scope did this too, so it may be a problem in the SP2 software.

Funny... the "StartUp Cnter" on the complete System Info screen said "21" when I first fired up the scope, and just a few starts later it said "114".  I think it is miscounting, now it's showing "120" and I'm pretty sure I've restarted more than six times since the "114" count. (Restarts mostly due to the freezing Measurements issue.)   :palm:

I've made some videos documenting these things but it may be tomorrow before the videos are ready to view.

Overall, I'm happy with the Rigol CS, and I do love the DS1054Z scope and I think that it will be really really great once the bugs are stamped out. This Measurement bug is something I've just been noticing, though, and I'd like to hear if anyone else has experienced the Measurements to stop working.

I've had no trouble with my probes, but I rarely use them at the 1x position. But my switches all seem to be working fine, without the plastic flash problem.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #378 on: November 22, 2015, 08:47:05 am »
It just did it again. Measurements have stopped updating, while the scope is just sitting there with some traces up, without me doing anything.    :wtf:   :--

I'm going to let it sit for a while to see if they come back by themselves.

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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #379 on: November 22, 2015, 09:35:37 am »
I got  tired of waiting so I rebooted, and the Measurements came back to life. Then after about ten minutes or so, without me touching controls at all, they just stopped working again and there's nothing I can do to get them back except restarting the scope. (The Hardware Frequency Counter does continue to work when this happens.) So I restarted, and I'm watching carefully now to see if I can get a consistent time for when they stop again. I have two sample traces up (CH2 and CH4) and a Math trace showing the multiplication of these two traces. To make it easier to see when the Measurements stop I have Statistics On, and I'm showing Measurements of Frequency and Rise Time and Fall Time of CH4, Vp-p of CH2 and Average of the Math trace.  I'm not touching the controls.

This is really annoying.    |O

ETA: The Measurements just stopped working. So it took about 8 minutes (from 3:29 to 3:37) from reboot to Measurement failure. Not touching controls at all.




« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 09:39:40 am by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline f1rmb

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #380 on: November 22, 2015, 09:51:15 am »
Hi,

  So Rigol should provide a boot update for the ones running previous version.

Thanks for your reports, very useful :-)

Cheers.
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Daniel
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #381 on: November 22, 2015, 10:20:19 am »
Yes, I agree. I've asked Rigol Support about this several times but have never gotten a real answer. I even suggested that they simply supply me with an updated Boot Version instead of a whole new scope. So I think maybe the Boot Version _cannot_ be updated by a software file in the normal way.



I've just tried waiting for the Measurements to stop, again, while videoing the screen. And of course they didn't stop this time. So the behaviour is inconsistent, and I still haven't figured out the conditions to reproduce the bug reliably.

Meanwhile, I'm running a Self-Calibrate procedure (again) just in case that has something to do with it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 10:23:37 am by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #382 on: November 22, 2015, 10:23:07 am »
So Rigol should provide a boot update for the ones running previous version.
You assume that boot is updateable.

(Also that boot is causing the problem - unlikely...)

 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #383 on: November 22, 2015, 10:25:14 am »
So Rigol should provide a boot update for the ones running previous version.
You assume that boot is updateable.

(Also that boot is causing the problem - unlikely...)

Well, as far as I can tell nobody with Boot 0.0.1.3 has reported having the Freeze bug. Only scopes with version 0.0.1.2 have had it.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #384 on: November 22, 2015, 10:33:22 am »
Well, as far as I can tell nobody with Boot 0.0.1.3 has reported having the Freeze bug.

Anybody...?

Only scopes with version 0.0.1.2 have had it.

But we know that some people with 0.0.1.2 don't have it.

(also some people with 0.0.1.1 don't have it, eg. me)
 

Offline kalvenk

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Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #385 on: November 22, 2015, 10:34:25 am »
No, I did experience of the freezing issue while saving screen to usb. My scope is running 0.0.1.3
Pls refer to post #367


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« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 10:40:09 am by kalvenk »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #386 on: November 22, 2015, 10:49:24 am »
No, I did experience of the freezing issue while saving screen to usb. My scope is running 0.0.1.3
Pls refer to post #367


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Yes, but that's not the same Freeze bug that we are talking about here. We are talking about the freezing when the Horizontal Zoom mode is entered, Auto memory depth and Display Persistence is set to anything other than Min. You are describing a different bug, I think.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #387 on: November 22, 2015, 10:54:02 am »
Well, as far as I can tell nobody with Boot 0.0.1.3 has reported having the Freeze bug.

Anybody...?

Only scopes with version 0.0.1.2 have had it.

But we know that some people with 0.0.1.2 don't have it.

(also some people with 0.0.1.1 don't have it, eg. me)

Do we really know that some with 0.0.1.2 don't have it? I'm not so sure that we really know that. Some people didn't follow instructions exactly, some people reported in using 1074 and 1104 scopes, etc. It may be that someone with 0.0.1.2 simply didn't follow the instructions correctly.
We only started checking on the Boot Version relatively recently in this thread, since we just found out about the "complete" System Information screen a little while ago. (But it has always been known that a "parameter" text file would have this information, just harder to access that way.)
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #388 on: November 22, 2015, 11:00:35 am »
Do we really know that some with 0.0.1.2 don't have it?

Nope.

I seem to remember some people posting here that they don't but it's in the middle of this thread and I can't be bothered to search for it. I'm sure that if the problem was as simple as "Boot 0.0.1.2" then Rigol would have reproduced it in the factory. They wouldn't have needed to contact somebody to get a defective scope.

Me? I think it's some hardware timing issue with a slight variance on different units, hopefully fixable in firmware. It's not necessarily a hardware defect, just somebody not reading a datasheet timing properly (or maybe even an error in a datasheet - it happens)

Let's hope Rigol make good use of that scope...

« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 11:06:41 am by Fungus »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #389 on: November 22, 2015, 11:17:11 am »
D'ya think? I haven't been able to get a straight answer on the Boot Version issue from Jason the Rigol tech.

Remember... the Rigol folks in China are the ones who let that "Pluses" typo in the most recent "firmware" get through....


Right now I'm more worried about this issue of the  Measurements stopping after a random time interval. By using the Statistics option and the "Difference" setting, you get a count of how many measurement samples are taken. With 5 measurements going, it takes about 3 samples per second.  My New Scope's measurements just now stopped after 896 samples. Just before that it went to slightly over 3000 samples before stopping. And just before that it went to only about 30 samples before stopping.

There is no way to get the measurements going again without power-cycling. This is really Really annoying. 

Does anyone else have _this_ bug? Am I having a show-stopping problem with this New Scope now? The Freeze bug could be worked around, but this issue of the Measurements stopping randomly without me doing anything at all is really... double-plus ungood. 


ETA: I'm making a video showing these random time intervals between the Measurement failures. The only thing consistent about it is that it always happens. Sometimes it happens shortly after bootup, within a minute, three minutes, sometimes it takes ten or twenty minutes, but the Measurements always stop working eventually.




« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 11:31:53 am by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #390 on: November 22, 2015, 12:06:13 pm »
We'll, I'm glad they finally showed a bit of common sense and are grabbing your specific scope to play with! Geez, how long did that take?? I had a feeling they were just guessing and couldn't actually reproduce the problem on their end.

Post specific instructions how to reproduce the math freeze-up if you can. (basic settings, etc)
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #391 on: November 22, 2015, 02:37:49 pm »
Right now I'm more worried about this issue of the  Measurements stopping after a random time interval. By using the Statistics option and the "Difference" setting, you get a count of how many measurement samples are taken. With 5 measurements going, it takes about 3 samples per second.  My New Scope's measurements just now stopped after 896 samples. Just before that it went to slightly over 3000 samples before stopping. And just before that it went to only about 30 samples before stopping.

There is no way to get the measurements going again without power-cycling. This is really Really annoying. 

The measurements stopping sounds like the application daemon crashing, should be an easy fix if the developers turn on debug consol and capture the error log. Or just put a watch dog on it so it restarts when it fails, hopefully fast enough not to impact the measurement sample rate. But the watchdog is more of a patch work around and not a true fix.

So question, now that you have the new scope. Does the SP2 still cause drastic slow down when you tried to simulate the freeze? I only ask since your now running what seems to be the same as what I have.
And as far as I know the SP2 is still not reversable.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #392 on: November 22, 2015, 07:44:26 pm »
We'll, I'm glad they finally showed a bit of common sense and are grabbing your specific scope to play with! Geez, how long did that take?? I had a feeling they were just guessing and couldn't actually reproduce the problem on their end.

Post specific instructions how to reproduce the math freeze-up if you can. (basic settings, etc)

Yes, that is right, Jason the Rigol USA tech told me several times that they were unable to reproduce the freezing problem on the scopes they had.  But I never did get a straight answer from him about whether they had tried it on scopes that had the Boot Version 0.0.1.2, or if they only had examples with 0.0.1.3 on hand.

As far as this Measurements thing is concerned, I'm still trying to figure out the parameters. All I can say at this point is that with the setups I've tried, it always happens, but at random times after startup. Anywhere from just a few seconds, to twenty or so minutes. The video documenting this is viewable at




In that video I'm using two channels (CH2 and CH4, trigger on CH4, CH4 at 1x directly connected to a Pulse Generator at 10 MHz, CH2 at 10x connected with 10x probe to same PG, DC coupling), and a Math trace multiplying the channels (Units of CH4 set to [A] so that the Math units come up as Watts), and five measurements up (CH2 Vp-p; CH4 Freq,Risetime, Falltime; Math Avg.) Acquire mode Average, 2 averages, Auto mem depth. Persistence Min. Horizontal at 20 ns/div.

To get some kind of time interval reading I'm using Statistics ON and Difference in "Stat.Sel.", which gives a sample count for the Measurements, at a rate of about 3 or 4 samples per second. So when the Measurements stop, the sample count gives the approximate time. But the measurements will still stop running even if Statistics is Off and just the normal tiny fonts are used for the Measurement displays.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #393 on: November 22, 2015, 08:02:59 pm »
Right now I'm more worried about this issue of the  Measurements stopping after a random time interval. By using the Statistics option and the "Difference" setting, you get a count of how many measurement samples are taken. With 5 measurements going, it takes about 3 samples per second.  My New Scope's measurements just now stopped after 896 samples. Just before that it went to slightly over 3000 samples before stopping. And just before that it went to only about 30 samples before stopping.

There is no way to get the measurements going again without power-cycling. This is really Really annoying. 

The measurements stopping sounds like the application daemon crashing, should be an easy fix if the developers turn on debug consol and capture the error log. Or just put a watch dog on it so it restarts when it fails, hopefully fast enough not to impact the measurement sample rate. But the watchdog is more of a patch work around and not a true fix.

So question, now that you have the new scope. Does the SP2 still cause drastic slow down when you tried to simulate the freeze? I only ask since your now running what seems to be the same as what I have.
And as far as I know the SP2 is still not reversable.

I don't know, exactly, yet. Right now I'm still busy documenting this Measurement problem.

I do know that when the Freeze Bug conditions are met, the Blue Zoom Window doesn't change when the Horizontal Scale knob is turned to change the Zoom factor, or perhaps it changes very slowly.  I have another video documenting this behaviour that I shot right after I unboxed this new scope and tested for the Freeze bug, but I haven't processed and uploaded it yet.

Yes, apparently there is no way to "roll back" to an earlier version of a firmware update. This seems like a major programming or strategy fail on Rigol's part. Even MicroSoft knows better than that! Any software change should always be reversible, in case new bugs are found in the "update".
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #394 on: November 22, 2015, 10:01:59 pm »
I've done some more work on this problem and apparently it is related to the Math function. Without using Math the measurements continue working, at least in my testing so far. But when one uses Math to multiply two traces, the Measurements stop working at random times as shown in the above video.

I've made a longer video going step-by-step, starting with the Default single-channel setup and adding conditions one at a time until finally the scope's Measurements stop working, after I've established the Math function.

When the video has finished processing and uploading I'll post the link here.

Here's the new video. It's pretty long at nearly 20 minutes.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 05:01:20 am by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #395 on: November 23, 2015, 01:29:15 am »
OK, I believe I have tracked down the minimum necessary conditions for the Measurements to stop working. This has worked consistently for me, the only thing is that the time it takes to fail seems to be random.

Note that this is a perfectly ordinary use of the scope, that someone might do every day, with no tricky settings or heavy task loading at all. It's just a plain old 2-trace multiplication.

1. Do a "5th left button" factory reset.
Just so you know we are starting from the same place with nothing but factory defaults in the scope.

2. Select your language, and I prefer "sound on".

3. Unzip the MeasureFail zipfile that I have attached below, and load the MEASUREFAIL2.stp setup file into the scope.   
This is nothing fancy, it just uses CH1 and CH2 on, 2V/div, and Math multiplication of the channels, 100U/div. Acquire mode is normal, mem depth is auto, persistence minimum, both channels units are [V], timebase is 20 ns/div, hardware frequency counter is ON CH1, and 5 measurements are displayed with stats and sample counts.

4. Provide a 5 V p-p signal at about 10 MHz to the CH1 and CH2 inputs.
The setup file sets the channels to 1x, it assumes you are using a direct cable connection to your FG signal source, or probes at 1x.

5. Observe the sample counts in the Statistics windows, and wait.
The past two three times I've done it the measurements stopped working at 846 counts, and 1k10 counts, and 373 counts.
But you may have to wait as long as 3k counts or more. If it hasn't stopped working by 4k counts you may not have the bug, or maybe you just need to wait even longer.

If your measurements stop working, try everything you can think of to get them working again, before you power-cycle the scope. If you find something that works, please let me know right away.

 :-BROKE

« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 01:41:04 am by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline kalvenk

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #396 on: November 23, 2015, 06:12:59 am »

The past two three times I've done it the measurements stopped working at 846 counts, and 1k10 counts, and 373 counts.
But you may have to wait as long as 3k counts or more. If it hasn't stopped working by 4k counts you may not have the bug, or maybe you just need to wait even longer.

By following the similar steps, my scope measurements stop working at count 1k3 [emoji19]. Other functions are still working like changing time base, v/d except measurement function that can't be resumed unless rebooting the scope


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Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #397 on: November 23, 2015, 08:43:42 am »
Just a though, maybe it would be a good idea to set up a new thread with 2 new surveys.
A new thread for counter crash.
Survey 1. Can you replicator counter crash bug?
Survey 2. Boot loader 1.2 or 1.3
Survey 3. SP1 or SP2

Not sure of you can set up multiple surveys, but if you can collecting the data like that above would be a lot easier then people post that it happened or didn't happen. Then they leave out information that I would consider relevant to the bug reproduction.

If at all possible include "Other" in each survey incase their scope is running a different firmware, or older boot loader? Can other allow the user to enter their own results and be part of the survey?

I've only created one post since I joined, and it had one survey. So I don't know if multiple surveys are possible or it "other" user defined answer is an option.

Either way, it still may be better to have a different thread, this one is already so longgggg. If I was just joining I would be reading it for one bug, then see 4 bugs and have no idea what's fixed in SP2 or not. I would be a confused new member and automatically think the scope is junk just from how many pages of posts their are. I probably wouldn't read it because of how long it is, and just make that assumption if I was looking on information about the scope because i was looking to buy one.

Just random thoughts.
Can posts be linked together? Another thought.
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Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #398 on: November 23, 2015, 02:20:54 pm »
My first attempt  of the 'measure freeze' setup given by **4017 bombed out at 870 samples.  I did not find any way to reset/restart the stats count (including a 'self cal' run).  All was well after a reboot.  I then ran stats for just the 2 channels for some time, over 7k sample count, but when I added the 'Maths' mode it only survived for a further 830 sample count. It does appear to need the 'Maths' mode to be activated to create the stats freeze condition.  I am running with the latest SP2 f/w and a boot 0.0.1.2.
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #399 on: November 23, 2015, 05:51:16 pm »
Hi,

okay, the same with my scope.

I load the measurement settings from **4017, feed in 2x 10MHz sinewave ~5Vpp (rubudium vs GPS test setup) CH1 x10 (probe) CH2 via RG58 direct x1, trigger set CH1. It stops counting at 1k81. All funktions are working, but without counting forward. I tried it few times. Only the counter time is different.

"Measure all" also hangs. I tried to restart the counter with "statistic on/off, math on/off, reset... the couter set to "0" but still wouldn't count or restart. The only way (seems) cycle the power button.

Latest firmware (SP2) on boot version 0.0.1.2

Maybe Rigol can find an "internal procedure"  like flash a new firmware / boot version via JTAG or something like that. I would try that. Better we can fix this issues little complicated as I send my scope back, become a new one with 0.0.1.3 and have the same failures again ;(

If RIDOL needs a DS1054Z with boot version 0.0.1.2. to test it, I got one..    ;(

@ alsetalokin4017

* MeasureFail.zip (0.86 kB - downloaded 6 times.)  :--

Looks like most here are not really interested in a working scope. Maybe you are right, they have buy it, to watch the beautiful colorized traces the whole day.  :-//
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 06:25:50 pm by Fennec »
 


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