Poll

Can you reproduce the Freeze-up Bug as described in this thread?

Yes, can reproduce the freezing.
42 (40%)
No, can't reproduce the freezing.
63 (60%)

Total Members Voted: 100

Author Topic: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??  (Read 135116 times)

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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« on: June 03, 2015, 02:03:48 am »
Wow. I'm getting a reproducible bug that's pretty darn severe.

The scope freezes up, becomes totally non-responsive (but still displays live waveform) when the Horizontal Zoom mode is engaged, and a Persistence Time other than "min" is selected.

Cycling power restores functionality --- usually.

I discovered this on Firmware 04.02 and now have upgraded to Firmware 04.03 and it still does the same thing.  One channel active, showing a waveform, select the Horiz. zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob, select any Persistence Time other than Min ... and scope freezes.

If I select a persistence time _before_ selecting the Horiz. zoom mode... the scope freezes, and since I have "Last" set as power-on option, the scope comes up frozen after restarting !! So I have to do the "press repeatedly the 5th left menu button during startup" to get the scope back to responding again (reset to defaults, chinese language).

Am I the only one experiencing this?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 05:33:23 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline kwass

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug ?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 03:29:41 am »
Am I the only one experiencing this?

I can't reproduce this bug running firmware 4.02.  I've tried several different settings before zooming and then changing the persistence and the scope hasn't frozen on me.

-katie
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug ?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 04:03:13 am »
Hmmm..... thanks for checking. That's kind of discouraging though... if others can't reproduce it, then it means there is something wrong with my scope.... again. I'm past the vendor's 30 day warranty period now, too. Grr.

I discovered it using firmware 04.02 and then changed to 04.03 and it still does it.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug ?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 05:07:04 am »
Here's a video:

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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug ?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 05:20:56 am »
I don't seem to be able to reproduce the bug by changing persistence after going into zoom mode.  However, I did notice a small visual artifact on the screen after having done that, so I suspect there's a memory-related bug here.


On the other hand, I was able to reproduce the issue by changing the persistence first and then going into zoom mode.  Fortunately, thanks to the original message, I set the scope up to boot up with the default settings, so I avoided having to use the magic reset method.  :)


That method reproduces the issue consistently.  This is with firmware 4.02.SP4.

 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug ?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 05:26:16 am »
To help others reproduce the issue, you may try to save the scope setup on a file, and post it (or link it) here.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug ?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2015, 05:34:24 am »


Quote from: bitwelder on Today at 07:26:16 AM
To help others reproduce the issue, you may try to save the scope setup on a file, and post it (or link it) here.

I was able to reproduce the issue by doing the following with no probes connected:
  • Boot the scope
  • Change the display persistence by pressing the "Display" button, then changing the "Persis Time" to 500ms.
  • Press the horizontal timebase knob.  This will put you into horizontal zoom mode.
  • At this point, the scope stops responding to any input (except the power button, of course  :)  ).
The issue reproduces for me without fail when I do the above.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 06:10:54 am »
Thanks. I feel a little better now... at least it's not _just_ my scope alone that does it. This is a pretty bad bug, IMHO. No user input or combo of settings should be able to make a scope freeze up and require rebooting! This isn't Windows we are talking about, after all.

As far as I can tell only the Horizontal Zoom and the Persistence settings determine the bug; it seems that other settings are irrelevant, can be anything. But I've attached a setup file (zipped for the upload) which works for me anyway, below. Just load the setup, press Horizontal knob to enter zoom mode, then change the persistence from the Display menu. Or set the Persistence first then enter zoom mode.

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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2015, 06:58:26 am »
Is there a bugzilla tracker for rigol bugs yet?
Seems like we are spotting a lot of bugs.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2015, 07:14:28 am »
Is there a bugzilla tracker for rigol bugs yet?
Seems like we are spotting a lot of bugs.
Sure there is, our very own Katie started this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/

And it seems to get bigger by the day.  :palm:

Also recent discussion in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bugzilla-environment-for-tracking-bugs-on-the-software-in-rigol-scopes/msg669925/#msg669925
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Offline poorchava

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2015, 07:55:06 am »
I have also encountered freeze when using horizontal zoom,  but I'm sure that I wasn't messing around with persistence settings, something else triggered the freeze. I will try to reproduce it.

Anyway,  it seems that there is something off with the horizontal zoom option.
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Offline kwass

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2015, 12:41:58 pm »

Sure there is, our very own Katie started this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/


I'd love to record this bug as soon as I'm able to reproduce it, I always check them myself before adding to the list.  For the life of me I can't reproduce this no matter what I do.  I'm a bit reluctant to load the settings files that alsetalokin4017 attached in case there's a corruption in there that's causing this lockup issue.

Is there anyone else that can't reproduce this problem?

One other related thing to check: When not zoomed in and showing the DISPLAY menu do you see the Persistence setting gray-out and switch to MIN when the timebase setting is 200ms and longer?  The return to normal (still at MIN) when you're back under 200ms?






« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 12:45:36 pm by kwass »
-katie
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2015, 02:17:34 pm »

Sure there is, our very own Katie started this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/


I'd love to record this bug as soon as I'm able to reproduce it, I always check them myself before adding to the list.  For the life of me I can't reproduce this no matter what I do.  I'm a bit reluctant to load the settings files that alsetalokin4017 attached in case there's a corruption in there that's causing this lockup issue.

Is there anyone else that can't reproduce this problem?

One other related thing to check: When not zoomed in and showing the DISPLAY menu do you see the Persistence setting gray-out and switch to MIN when the timebase setting is 200ms and longer?  The return to normal (still at MIN) when you're back under 200ms?
Yes, I see that happening, too but I didn't consider it a bug since it only happens at the very slow timebases; somehow it seemed logical that it would act that way at very slow timebase settings. Also, my "freeze" bug does _not_ seem to happen at these very slow timebases. I don't know where the threshold is but setting to 1 microsecond/division definitely works on mine to cause the freeze bug.

Katie, could you please try this: Connect only one probe, CH1, connect it to the Calibrator output. Press the "Auto" button to let the scope set its own parameters and display the Calibrator signal. (I hardly ever use Auto but in this case it lets us start at some known setup.)  Mine sets itself to 200 us/div horizontally and 500 mV/div vertically. Now test for the bug: press Horizontal scale knob to enter Zoom, and then select the Display menu and try to change to 100 ms or 200 ms persistence. Here I get no freezebug, it seems to behave normally if somewhat slow to respond. Now reset Persistence to Min, exit Zoom mode, and then change Horizontal timebase to 10 us/div. Enter Zoom mode and then try changing Persistence to 100 ms. My scope freezes here.

So it appears that on my scope at least, the freezing doesn't happen if the timebase is relatively slow. But at faster timebases it happens.
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Offline Tainer

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2015, 04:13:14 pm »
FW 4.0.3 - can't reproduce the bug. Tried different persistence settings. Don't remember having this issue on 4.0.2 either.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2015, 05:31:14 pm »
FW 4.0.3 - can't reproduce the bug. Tried different persistence settings. Don't remember having this issue on 4.0.2 either.

Did you try it with the timebase set to 1 us/div?

So we have had one other person who was able to reproduce it, and several who have not been able to.

I've now confirmed that it happens to my scope even when the options are "re-locked" back to stock no-options 1054z mode.

I think, also, that it might not happen when "memory depth" is set to the maximum in the Acquire menu. Try setting to "Auto".

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Offline Tainer

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2015, 06:01:17 pm »
Nope, same result at 1uS/div. UI does seem less responsive, but no lock-ups.
It might be interesting to see if you could access the scope from the PC when it freezes.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2015, 06:41:21 pm »
Nope, same result at 1uS/div. UI does seem less responsive, but no lock-ups.
It might be interesting to see if you could access the scope from the PC when it freezes.

No, when it's frozen it won't accept a Telnet connection nor will it respond to the Bildschirmkopie program. I'm using Linux so the UltraScope software isn't an option.  When it's not frozen I can use Telnet normally for all SCPI commands and the Bildschirmkopie program fetches screenshots and communicates normally.


I've now confirmed that the freeze happens when the Memory Depth is set to Auto, and doesn't happen when the maximum depth is set (12M for "unhacked" and 24M for "hacked" status.)

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Offline Solder_Junkie

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2015, 07:22:40 pm »
I've tried and failed to lock up my 1054Z using all the suggestions posted so far, it is still on options trials) and has firmware 4.02.
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2015, 07:34:04 pm »
Maybe the reproduction steps can be tried after a factory reset, to confirm that it is not related to a customer specific configuration in the scope.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2015, 08:47:38 pm »
I can't reproduce it on an MSO1054Z-S, firmware 4.02 SP4 board 6.1.1.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2015, 09:52:46 pm »
Maybe the reproduction steps can be tried after a factory reset, to confirm that it is not related to a customer specific configuration in the scope.

Well, the closest thing to a "factory reset" is what comes up when one repeatedly presses the 5th dark grey left menu key during bootup, right? The scope comes up in Chinese. So I set English. The 1 us/div and Auto memory depth are set by default already. So I set Persistence to 100 ms, then enter Zoom mode... and it freezes.

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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2015, 09:58:18 pm »
Hmmm... this is pretty strange indeed. We have at least one other person who IS able to reproduce the freezeup, but several others who cannot.

Well, now that I know it can be avoided by using full memory depth, it's not really much of a problem for me, but it certainly is strange that some (at least two!) scopes have the bug and others don't.


Another short video illustrating the issue:

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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2015, 10:08:14 pm »
Just a note: if you touch the screen of the scope with the stylus, don't you scratch the screen? :)
I am usually very careful in touching the screen of my scope, multimeter or laptop.
When you are using a PDA, then of course the screen is designed for using a stylus, that's a different case :)
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2015, 10:10:32 pm »
Hmmm... this is pretty strange indeed. We have at least one other person who IS able to reproduce the freezeup, but several others who cannot.

Well, now that I know it can be avoided by using full memory depth, it's not really much of a problem for me, but it certainly is strange that some (at least two!) scopes have the bug and others don't.


Another short video illustrating the issue:


What's the date of calibration for your scope?  Mine's March 4, 2015, and I only took delivery of it yesterday.  It's the closest thing I can think of to a "build date", something we could use to determine roughly when these were made.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2015, 11:17:07 pm »
Just a note: if you touch the screen of the scope with the stylus, don't you scratch the screen? :)
I am usually very careful in touching the screen of my scope, multimeter or laptop.
When you are using a PDA, then of course the screen is designed for using a stylus, that's a different case :)

I don't think a slight tap from a bamboo chopstick is going to hurt it! I'm very careful myself too, it's a lot harder to clean off fingerprints than it is to avoid leaving them in the first place.
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Offline Muxr

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2015, 11:29:36 pm »
My DS2000 was also freezing all the time when I first got it, it was really annoying I would get a lock up every 20 minutes on average, firmware upgrade to 3.0.3 solved the issue. The version that was buggy was 3.0.0. Since I upgraded to 3.0.3 I only had one lock up of the UI in 3 months.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2015, 11:30:42 pm »
Hmmm... this is pretty strange indeed. We have at least one other person who IS able to reproduce the freezeup, but several others who cannot.

Well, now that I know it can be avoided by using full memory depth, it's not really much of a problem for me, but it certainly is strange that some (at least two!) scopes have the bug and others don't.


(video linked up above)

What's the date of calibration for your scope?  Mine's March 4, 2015, and I only took delivery of it yesterday.  It's the closest thing I can think of to a "build date", something we could use to determine roughly when these were made.

The cal cert says 16 Jan 2015. 
I don't know if you've read about the "saga". We ordered the scope in early February, and due to backorder and longshoreman's strike, I didn't have a delivery until the first week of April. (I don't remember the exact dates offhand). This was "scope 1" which turned out to have a bad glitch on CH4. So after consulting with a Rigol tech and the folks at TEquipment I sent that one back and was shipped a "new" one from TEquipment. But... some alarms went off about the replacement "scope 2".
First, the packaging. There was only one box, it was not double-boxed like the first one and like the ones you see "unboxing" on YT videos. What happened to the outer box?
Second, the serial number. The "new" scope had an _earlier_ SN than the one I returned, by quite a bit of numbers. This didn't make sense to me, as all of TEquipment's stock at that time should have been from the container they received at the end of March.
Third, there were some minor differences in how the "feel" (control response timing) was compared to my memory of what the first scope felt like. Later I put that down to my imagination but now I'm not so sure any more.
And as we see now, the calibration date was in January, which fits with the early SN.

So I'm wondering what to make of all this. Is the scope I got as the "replacement" a lemon, not too bad to toss out like the first one but still not quite 100 percent "right"?
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Offline Bob F.

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2015, 11:32:49 pm »
Same on my brand new DS1054Z (4.02.SP4 as yet un-hacked).  Mine will freeze after changing Persistence setting at anything faster than 20uS with Mem-Depth at Auto when put into Zoom mode.  Changing from Auto to the maximum 24M (why is my unhacked 1054Z saying 24M? [edit: oh yeah - it's still on the Trial - doh!]) stops it freezing as reported above.

Oddly, it took me several tries before I was able to make it freeze, but it does it every time now.

I have also just made it freeze by changing the Persistence value while it was in Zoom mode @ 1us/div.

And again @ 20us - but this time I had to change the Persistence twice - it froze when I hit the button the second time to change it...

I think I'll let Rigol sort out the actual issue!  Will just have to remember to keep it at 24M as suggested until Rigol sort it out (assuming it is firmware which I guess is most likely).


Is there no soft-reset for the scope - a combination of key-presses?


Cheers, Bob.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 11:37:14 pm by Bob F. »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2015, 11:38:01 pm »
My DS2000 was also freezing all the time when I first got it, it was really annoying I would get a lock up every 20 minutes on average, firmware upgrade to 3.0.3 solved the issue. The version that was buggy was 3.0.0. Since I upgraded to 3.0.3 I only had one lock up of the UI in 3 months.

Did other 2000 owners also have the same problem?  I'm still waiting for more reports of this bug, most people don't seem to be reproducing it. If it's down to just mine, or a few from a short production run maybe, then I don't expect Rigol would fix it in a firmware update.

I'm also having trouble understanding how this could be a hardware fault, though. The first scope's glitching was obviously in hardware, but this one's a lot more difficult to call. Still, I've now reinstalled the 04.03 firmware again, and tested both with Options "installed" and "uninstalled". (I hate to use the "h" word.) Still the same problem happens.
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Offline LightlyDoped

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2015, 11:39:02 pm »
I'm still running firmware version 4.02 and I can't reproduce this behavior. By the way, my scope also came from TEquipment without a double box. I received it in early February.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2015, 11:43:52 pm »
Same on my brand new DS1054Z (4.02.SP4 as yet un-hacked).  Mine will freeze after changing Persistence setting at anything faster than 20uS with Mem-Depth at Auto when put into Zoom mode.  Changing from Auto to the maximum 24M (why is my unhacked 1054Z saying 24M? [edit: oh yeah - it's still on the Trial - doh!]) stops it freezing as reported above.

Oddly, it took me several tries before I was able to make it freeze, but it does it every time now.

I have also just made it freeze by changing the Persistence value while it was in Zoom mode @ 1us/div.

And again @ 20us - but this time I had to change the Persistence twice - it froze when I hit the button the second time to change it...

I think I'll let Rigol sort out the actual issue!  Will just have to remember to keep it at 24M as suggested until Rigol sort it out (assuming it is firmware which I guess is most likely).


Is there no soft-reset for the scope - a combination of key-presses?


Cheers, Bob.

Thanks for that report, Bob! Now maybe Rigol will notice, especially if others can report the same bug.

There are two different "resets" that I know about. If the scope is responding, look in the "Storage" menu, at the bottom there is a "Default" button. This will reset many of the scope's parameters back to default.
Next, there's the 5th one of the six dark colored buttons on the left menu panel. Press this button repeatedly during power-on bootup, and the scope will reset back to what I think are factory defaults. It will be in Chinese when it starts, but will be on the page where you can select your desired language.
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Offline dadler

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2015, 11:50:02 pm »
Hmmm... this is pretty strange indeed. We have at least one other person who IS able to reproduce the freezeup, but several others who cannot.

Well, now that I know it can be avoided by using full memory depth, it's not really much of a problem for me, but it certainly is strange that some (at least two!) scopes have the bug and others don't.


(video linked up above)

What's the date of calibration for your scope?  Mine's March 4, 2015, and I only took delivery of it yesterday.  It's the closest thing I can think of to a "build date", something we could use to determine roughly when these were made.

The cal cert says 16 Jan 2015. 
I don't know if you've read about the "saga". We ordered the scope in early February, and due to backorder and longshoreman's strike, I didn't have a delivery until the first week of April. (I don't remember the exact dates offhand). This was "scope 1" which turned out to have a bad glitch on CH4. So after consulting with a Rigol tech and the folks at TEquipment I sent that one back and was shipped a "new" one from TEquipment. But... some alarms went off about the replacement "scope 2".
First, the packaging. There was only one box, it was not double-boxed like the first one and like the ones you see "unboxing" on YT videos. What happened to the outer box?
Second, the serial number. The "new" scope had an _earlier_ SN than the one I returned, by quite a bit of numbers. This didn't make sense to me, as all of TEquipment's stock at that time should have been from the container they received at the end of March.
Third, there were some minor differences in how the "feel" (control response timing) was compared to my memory of what the first scope felt like. Later I put that down to my imagination but now I'm not so sure any more.
And as we see now, the calibration date was in January, which fits with the early SN.

So I'm wondering what to make of all this. Is the scope I got as the "replacement" a lemon, not too bad to toss out like the first one but still not quite 100 percent "right"?

Just a data-point for you:

I sent back a DSA815-TG due to defective display, and the Tequipment replacement came in a single-box. No outer box. And the single box that it did come in, had a big hole poked through the side into the interior of the box. Luckily, once I opened the box, I discovered that the hole was on the back side of the device (no screen contact).

The new DSA815 seems fine and has a later serial number than my original. However, I wonder where the original outer box is for this DSA? The box must exist, serial number and all. Makes me think I got a refurbished unit, or a return of some sort?
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2015, 11:53:41 pm »
...
I think I'll let Rigol sort out the actual issue!  Will just have to remember to keep it at 24M as suggested until Rigol sort it out (assuming it is firmware which I guess is most likely).
...

Thanks for that report, Bob! Now maybe Rigol will notice, especially if others can report the same bug.

...

Did anyone reported the bug to Rigol?

Is not like they are monitoring every thread here at the EEVblog, so don't expect it to get fixed unless someone contacts them.
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2015, 12:01:06 am »
My DS2000 was also freezing all the time when I first got it, it was really annoying I would get a lock up every 20 minutes on average, firmware upgrade to 3.0.3 solved the issue. The version that was buggy was 3.0.0. Since I upgraded to 3.0.3 I only had one lock up of the UI in 3 months.

Did other 2000 owners also have the same problem?  I'm still waiting for more reports of this bug, most people don't seem to be reproducing it. If it's down to just mine, or a few from a short production run maybe, then I don't expect Rigol would fix it in a firmware update.

I'm also having trouble understanding how this could be a hardware fault, though. The first scope's glitching was obviously in hardware, but this one's a lot more difficult to call. Still, I've now reinstalled the 04.03 firmware again, and tested both with Options "installed" and "uninstalled". (I hate to use the "h" word.) Still the same problem happens.
I do remember reading a few lock up complaints on the  2000 but nothing like I experienced. I have a DS2072A so maybe it was just limited to that revision and the firmware it shipped with.
 

Offline GonzoTheGreat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2015, 12:52:00 am »
Well, the closest thing to a "factory reset" is what comes up when one repeatedly presses the 5th dark grey left menu key during bootup, right? The scope comes up in Chinese. So I set English. The 1 us/div and Auto memory depth are set by default already. So I set Persistence to 100 ms, then enter Zoom mode... and it freezes.

I was able to reproduce the bug when starting from the factory defaults and keeping the memory on Auto and 1us/div.
I am using the firmware 4.03 in the "100MHz hacked mode".
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2015, 01:44:21 am »
Thanks for the report Gonzo. Getting much snow down there these days? ;)

So now I'm confident that it is a software bug, not just some peculiarity of my unit. We have now almost as many freezebug detections, as non-detections. What's different about the ones that can't reproduce the bug, though?

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2015, 02:17:59 am »
I can reproduce it too.  Has anyone actually reported it to Rigol, with a link to this thread?

I'm 4.02.sp4.  Mine just came in the mail yesterday.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 02:28:59 am by John Coloccia »
 

Offline kwass

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2015, 02:19:29 am »
I've tried everything suggested in this thread and still can't lock up my 1054z with firmware 4.02.  And since we're sort of 50-50 for responders in this thread I'm going to guess that this is somehow due to a hardware variation -- however unlikely that seems.

I'll record this in the bug thread as "some users have reported scope lock ups when setting memory depth to AUTO, timebase to 1us, zooming in and changing the persistence from MIN something else."
-katie
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2015, 02:37:49 am »
I've tried everything suggested in this thread and still can't lock up my 1054z with firmware 4.02.  And since we're sort of 50-50 for responders in this thread I'm going to guess that this is somehow due to a hardware variation -- however unlikely that seems.

I'll record this in the bug thread as "some users have reported scope lock ups when setting memory depth to AUTO, timebase to 1us, zooming in and changing the persistence from MIN something else."

Actually... by  my count in this thread I am counting 5 who have reproduced the bug (including me) and 4 who have tried and can't reproduce it (including you). So instead of "some users" you could be saying "over half of the users who tried..."
;)
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline kwass

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2015, 02:40:33 am »
Actually... by  my count in this thread I am counting 5 who have reproduced the bug (including me) and 4 who have tried and can't reproduce it (including you). So instead of "some users" you could be saying "over half of the users who tried..."
;)

Oh no, it sounds like we need another poll!

-katie
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2015, 02:51:40 am »
Actually... by  my count in this thread I am counting 5 who have reproduced the bug (including me) and 4 who have tried and can't reproduce it (including you). So instead of "some users" you could be saying "over half of the users who tried..."
;)

Oh no, it sounds like we need another poll!

Heh.. OK I put up a poll, and voted in it. Please everybody check it out and put your vote in!


The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2015, 02:52:55 am »
I've also noticed that when the persist time is anything but min, and you go into the delayed sweep (or whatever they call it), depending on what your initial time scale is you will run into various VERY slow GUI response as you change the second time scale.  It's not random.  It reliably happens at specific time scales.

So for example, on mine I set:

Persistence 100ms
Main time base: 100us

Switch into delayed sweep

As I move the second time base from 5us to 2us, the transition takes a LONG time.

That's just one example.  I tried it with others, and the various delays vs time base are all over the place.  Some are very fast...others have me thinking the scope is locked up, but it's actually working.  It's just VERY slow.  Setting memory depth to the maximum doesn't fix the problem.  It just changes it.

None of this happens with persistence set to min.

So there's more to this than simply locking up.  I wonder if the others that can't reproduce the locking up could possibly reproduce the huge slowdowns changing the second time base?

Anyhow, I rarely use persistence greater than Min, so it's not really affecting me.  Just wanted to help out a bit.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 02:54:28 am by John Coloccia »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2015, 03:54:28 am »
Actually... by  my count in this thread I am counting 5 who have reproduced the bug (including me) and 4 who have tried and can't reproduce it (including you). So instead of "some users" you could be saying "over half of the users who tried..."
;)

Oh no, it sounds like we need another poll!

Heh.. OK I put up a poll, and voted in it. Please everybody check it out and put your vote in!
Plus another option: I haven't got a 1054Z but I want to see the results.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2015, 04:42:16 am »
Heh.. OK I put up a poll, and voted in it. Please everybody check it out and put your vote in!
Plus another option: I haven't got a 1054Z but I want to see the results.

The forum software has taken care of that; the "View Results" button is right below the actual poll. No need for a "fake" voting option ;-)
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2015, 07:12:33 am »
Heh.. OK I put up a poll, and voted in it. Please everybody check it out and put your vote in!
Plus another option: I haven't got a 1054Z but I want to see the results.

The forum software has taken care of that; the "View Results" button is right below the actual poll. No need for a "fake" voting option ;-)
Thanks, it was included in another poll recently, that's why I asked.
All good.  :-+
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2015, 11:12:26 am »
We seem to be missing a few "Can reproduce" votes!

Two more people have reported "Can reproduce" in comments on my second YT video linked above. One was someone who tried at first and couldn't reproduce, but by following the video exactly, was then able to make his scope freeze as described. That one was a "never hacked" stock 1054z unit with some time left on the trial options.

The other "Can reproduce" commenter has contacted a Rigol tech and they are exploring the issue. Apparently the Rigol tech couldn't get his scope to freeze during their phone call, but he's looking into the matter further.

This is a real bug, and results from a perfectly legit combination of settings that might reasonably be expected to occur in normal use. Why some people can't reproduce it may be because of a real difference in their scopes, like good vs bad production runs of some chip in the things,  or maybe just my lousy instructions aren't conveying the bug parameters sufficiently well enough.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Online jadew

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2015, 11:44:27 am »
DS1104Z - 04.02 - can't reproduce.
 

Offline Anand

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2015, 12:34:17 pm »
DS1054z - 4.03 - CAN reproduce.
trashf.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2015, 01:35:00 pm »
What are the exact steps you need to follow from Factory Defaults to reproduce the bug.
You cannot have a bug that only happens with some scopes, that smells like a hardware bug.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2015, 02:18:19 pm »
Set persistence to 100ms.
Set memory depth to Auto (should be set that way already)
Set time base to 1us.
Switch to delayed sweep mode. 
Locks up on me every time.

Plus, there's the other funniness with response times that I mentioned earlier.  I doubt this is a hardware bug.  I'll bet money it's some sort of race condition, and any differences between different scopes is just due to slightly different timing.

The big question is can DAVE reproduce it?  He's got a 1054Z, no?  Maybe I'll post this in one of the 1054Z video threads and see if he notices.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 02:20:05 pm by John Coloccia »
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2015, 02:31:54 pm »
I just shot Dave a PM explaining it.  We'll see if he has a chance to try it.  If he can get it to lock up too, I thought it'd make a fun little video. It really is kind of a strange setup, though.  I could see getting in there by accident, but I'm not sure why I'd ever do it on purpose.  Maybe looking for a glitch in some comm protocol, or something like that?
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2015, 02:33:29 pm »
What are the exact steps you need to follow from Factory Defaults to reproduce the bug.
You cannot have a bug that only happens with some scopes, that smells like a hardware bug.

Please watch my videos linked above, especially the second one.

Or....
1. Power off scope, disconnect probes, or connect CH1 probe to Calibrator or some other signal. My scope reproduces this bug reliably even with no signal input (no probes connected), or any signal to CH1.
2. To enter "factory default" mode, repeatedly press 5th dark grey left menu button while scope is starting up. Screen should come up in Chinese.
3. Select your language (I have only tested with English language.)
4. Note that 1 us/div is already set in Horizontal Scale. Note that "Auto" is already set in Acquire>Mem Depth. If not, set these now.
5. Enter Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob.
6. Display>Persis Time> select 100 ms, or anything other than "min".
Scope freezes at this point.

Steps 5 and 6 can be reversed.

Or you can start with Memory Depth set to maximum, then when in Horizontal Zoom with 100 ms Persistence, select Acquire>Mem Depth> Auto and the scope freezes at that point.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2015, 02:38:22 pm »
I just shot Dave a PM explaining it.  We'll see if he has a chance to try it.  If he can get it to lock up too, I thought it'd make a fun little video. It really is kind of a strange setup, though.  I could see getting in there by accident, but I'm not sure why I'd ever do it on purpose.  Maybe looking for a glitch in some comm protocol, or something like that?

Or looking at a signal with some jitter, etc.  I was usually using "Auto" memory depth, and setting some persistence allows a more "analog" picture so lets one see the magnitude of the jitter a little better. That's how I found it. I don't think it's such an unusual setting combo, even though it took me a month of use before I actually encountered it.

Regardless of that, no legitimate combination of user settings should make a scope freeze up and require a reboot! This isn't Windows we are talking about here....
;)
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline OldDogSleeping

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2015, 05:52:22 pm »
I put that I can't reproduce the freeze in the poll, as no matter what I did using the probe calibration signal it worked fine without freezing.

However I thought I'd just try a faster signal, so connected up a 100 Khz square wave, and guess what ? It freezes with 100ms Persistence.

Bellow 100Khz, the scope becomes unresponsive and freezes as you zoom in, but it can be recovered by removing the signal, and hitting STOP.

anything bellow 10 Khz, and mine does not freeze.

Newish DS1054z 00.04.03
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2015, 06:15:07 pm »
Yet again, apart from becoming very slow, it does not freeze.
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2015, 06:41:17 pm »
I followed John C's sequence on my newly arrived DS1054Z  with no input signal and it 'Froze'. No reaction to any Button pushes!  I still have the demo options and have upgraded the F/W to the latest 00.04.03.  So definitely a somewhat severe bug if one ended up with that combination of timebase and persistance.  Power it down and everything comes up normal again fortunately. I haven't tried other combinations though.

 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2015, 06:52:19 pm »
I forgot to mention after powering up again the 100ms persistance was remembered and selecting Delayed Timebase again froze everything again. However the Delayed menu did not change to ON  on either occasion despite being selected. ie remained OFF.  Rather weird.
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2015, 07:05:25 pm »
Last time powering up for now I finally ended up locked up as mentioned in the first post of this thread. A session of pressing the fifth left button to recover in Chinese brought the scope back to life and returned everything to normal.  I hope Rigol take some notice of this thread's comments and update their F/W to cure this as it isn't very good to be able lock the scope up like this.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2015, 07:09:20 pm »
When you managed to reboot and come back OK, did you turn the scope off quickly after noticing the lockup, or did you play around with it for a while?  Could be that things are just crawling along so slowly when it happens that it didn't even have a chance to record the current setup, so when you rebooted it didn't remember you'd just gone into the delayed sweep.  I'm almost wondering if after it's frozen, perhaps you can just leave it for 20 or 30 minutes, and it will eventually come back.  It would sort of be consistent with the other slow downs I saw.  Maybe it's not locked...it's just crawling along extremely slowly.
 

Offline Tainer

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2015, 07:34:52 pm »
Although I voted for "don't have the bug", I do agree that there is something seriously wrong with this mode. I noticed some minor graphical glitches while changing trigger settings, so I tried to take a screenshot of these glitches. It took about 6 minutes to write the image on a usb-stick and the images were corrupted. Tried different usb-sticks - same result.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 07:40:14 pm by Tainer »
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2015, 08:18:04 pm »
After the first reboot I did not play around for long but just tried to select Delayed Timebase the persistence had remembered it was 100ms.  However on selecting Delayed the screen changed to part display view ie 2 traces but no 'blue - space -blue  window' but did not show Delayed ON.  This first time everything then froze and no buttons did anything.

After the Fifth button boot up and Chinese start up all worked OK again.   Following your suggestion I Set up the 'Frozen mode' again 100ms persistence and 1us Timebase then selected Delayed again. Once again it froze showing the 2 traces as above and Delayed apparently OFF.  But this time I left it for some time.  After some 10 minutes, I didn't keep watching, the full blue- space-blue window appeared and Delayed suddenly showed up as ON.  The scope then continued to operate normally again.  It would appear that the s/w has a bug such that it goes through a rather long s/w loop or perhaps it waits for the Memory to Fill up (Currently 24M at 12.0kpts 1GSa/s).

So your thoughts of a long slow response are correct.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2015, 08:30:01 pm »
Although I voted for "don't have the bug", I do agree that there is something seriously wrong with this mode. I noticed some minor graphical glitches while changing trigger settings, so I tried to take a screenshot of these glitches. It took about 6 minutes to write the image on a usb-stick and the images were corrupted. Tried different usb-sticks - same result.

Wow... that is really weird. I have seen some unreasonably long delays in writing a picture to the USB stick if I try to save while the scope is running. Sometimes it is pretty fast but usually not. So now I generally Stop the scope before I save a picture, this seem to work to make it save much faster.  If you Stop the scope, do you still get outrageously long delays saving, and corrupted files?



By the way, I think I've found another difference between firmware 04.02 and 04.03. I think I recall that when the scope is Stopped, the Hardware Frequency Counter stopped showing a valid value in 04.02 and showed "<15Hz" instead. But now in 04.03 the value in the HW Freq Counter stays at its value when the scope is Stopped. This is good.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2015, 08:35:53 pm »
After the first reboot I did not play around for long but just tried to select Delayed Timebase the persistence had remembered it was 100ms.  However on selecting Delayed the screen changed to part display view ie 2 traces but no 'blue - space -blue  window' but did not show Delayed ON.  This first time everything then froze and no buttons did anything.

After the Fifth button boot up and Chinese start up all worked OK again.   Following your suggestion I Set up the 'Frozen mode' again 100ms persistence and 1us Timebase then selected Delayed again. Once again it froze showing the 2 traces as above and Delayed apparently OFF.  But this time I left it for some time.  After some 10 minutes, I didn't keep watching, the full blue- space-blue window appeared and Delayed suddenly showed up as ON.  The scope then continued to operate normally again.  It would appear that the s/w has a bug such that it goes through a rather long s/w loop or perhaps it waits for the Memory to Fill up (Currently 24M at 12.0kpts 1GSa/s).

So your thoughts of a long slow response are correct.

Also very interesting. I think I've had mine sit for longer than that in "frozen" mode but I don't really have any data. So I'm doing a trial right now. I've got a circuit on the bench that I'm running some tests on and I'm taking a coffee break so it's an ideal time. Here's the current screen I'm looking at. From this, I just selected Auto memory depth and as soon as I selected 100 ms persistence, it froze. Started the stopwatch....   ;)
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2015, 08:37:04 pm »
Just found another interesting thing once you have used Delayed with 100ms and frozen it, waited till it caught up every persistence value and ON/OFF of Delayed works almost instantly.  It would seem the first time one operates the Delayed with 100ms is the only occasion  'Freezing' for a long time occurs.  I haven't tried with other initial values of persistence to see if the Frozen period changes with different values.   Just maybe those other forum members who haven't seen this problem didn't try it from first boot up and had already filled the Memory with other activities.  Perhaps some of those who couldn't create the Frozen mode could try it from cold and see if they can then repeat the problem as well.
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2015, 08:53:13 pm »
Additional point I hadn't noticed that I was in stop mode when I switched  Delayed ON and OFF.  On pressing Run ie Auto it all froze again and I am timing properly this time!   So far 14 minutes frozen.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2015, 08:55:49 pm »
23 minutes and still frozen.....

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2015, 08:57:27 pm »
Mines been on for quite a while too, now.  I'm just going to leave it run while I'm soldering up some products.  We'll see if it ever comes back.  The fact that the slow ups are occurring, and that it sometimes comes back after a while, might help Rigol track down the problem.  Given that people are seeing different behavior depending on the signal going in might even suggest it could have something to do with triggering.

 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #67 on: June 04, 2015, 09:12:49 pm »
Mines been on for quite a while too, now.  I'm just going to leave it run while I'm soldering up some products.  We'll see if it ever comes back.  The fact that the slow ups are occurring, and that it sometimes comes back after a while, might help Rigol track down the problem.  Given that people are seeing different behavior depending on the signal going in might even suggest it could have something to do with triggering.

Maybe... but my scope still shows a perfectly valid, live triggered waveform while it's frozen.

40 minutes now and still frozen. I'll give it a few more minutes then I'm rebooting and getting back to work.

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #68 on: June 04, 2015, 09:20:14 pm »
I have just got to 40 mins and it hasn't recovered this time so it looks like the Fifth button might be needed again.  That's it for tonight in the UK!
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #69 on: June 04, 2015, 09:33:21 pm »
Yeah, I gave up at the 45 minute mark too.
 

Offline Loboscope

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #70 on: June 04, 2015, 09:51:01 pm »
I have the DS1104Z (true 100 MHz), Board Ver. 0.1.1, SW 00.04.02.SP4.
No Freeze-up Problem, it seems only to response a little bit slower, but not worth to think about.

Greetings, Jürgen
 

Offline Tainer

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2015, 10:42:05 pm »
Wow... that is really weird. I have seen some unreasonably long delays in writing a picture to the USB stick if I try to save while the scope is running. Sometimes it is pretty fast but usually not. So now I generally Stop the scope before I save a picture, this seem to work to make it save much faster.  If you Stop the scope, do you still get outrageously long delays saving, and corrupted files?
After pressing 'Stop' screenshots are saved without problems, graphical glitches disappear as well. Glitches appear on 1uS/div when I change trigger level (notice the blue line at the bottom of the screen).
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2015, 10:55:45 pm »

After pressing 'Stop' screenshots are saved without problems, graphical glitches disappear as well. Glitches appear on 1uS/div when I change trigger level (notice the blue line at the bottom of the screen).

I have seen that blue (or maybe green)  line also, for the first time just today. I can't reproduce it "on demand" but it was definitely there once or twice today.

I also noticed in the Trigger menu the "Sweep" item would be completely blank and there would be no LED lit indicating sweep mode above the trigger "Mode" button. Normally always one or another of the three lights is lit and there is always either "Auto", "Normal" or "Single" in the "Sweep" menu item box.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2015, 09:48:16 am »
So what is happening here? We have a real mystery.

-A show-stopping bug has been found that seems to affect roughly half of the DS1054Z units tested.
-The bug affects scopes running firmware 04.02 or 04.03.
-The bug doesn't care whether the scope's Options have been unlocked or not -- several reports of totally "virgin" never-been-hacked scopes with the bug have emerged. The bug affects stock 1054 units and those that have been "unlocked" to 100MHz status.
-The show-stopper might also have other minor bugs associated with it, like slow-downs, corrupted file-saves, a screen artifact associated with setting Trigger Level, and other strange behaviours associated with the Horizontal Zoom (aka Delayed) mode.
-Some users who initially reported not being able to reproduce the bug, eventually were indeed able to do it by the proper combination of settings.

So how can this be? There must be some difference between scopes that have the bug and scopes that do not, and it doesn't appear to be related to the firmware or the "hacking" history. A hardware issue? Some difference at the component level somehow? That affects only half the units? This is very strange.

I'd really like to hear Dave's take on this.
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Online Bud

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2015, 02:36:17 pm »
So what is happening here? We have a real mystery.
..
A hardware issue? Some difference at the component level somehow?

My friend You may not be too far from the truth.

What is happening is very simple and I have been saying this for months:

Rigol have no idea what they are doing

This was proved in another thread for their bad oscilloscope ADC clock case. It was clear they had no idea how the circuit works, how to select design parameters, how to select components, how to layout the circuit. No quality control was performed, otherwise this defect would have been caught right away.

I myself have a DS2072 and it caused me direct dollar loss in terms of my lost time before I realized what rubbish it was. It only took me less than 24 hours to be hit with at least two defects - lock ups and that the scope did not memorize its 50 Ohm input setting between power-ups. You check the setting in the menu and it says it was on 50 Ohm, where is in fact the input was on high impedance. That mislead me and caused me wasted time which cost money. There is no excuse for this type of shit to be happening.

I bought 2072a scope to make my life easier, but it made my life harder. I have been saying since then anyone buying rigol junk will sooner or later regret they did. Reading this and other threads I can see it is now happening that this junk began affecting their owner's performance. Why do you, I and others have to spend time fighting with this POS instead of using this time for their circuit testing. What kind of instrument is it if it requires fixing it first. Oh year, I can already hear someone singing the familiar "cheap, best bung for the buck !!" mantra. But is it? Cant you guys see that you now waste your time troubleshooting this shit? Is that what "best bang for the buck" supposed to look like ?

In regards to your hardware issue guess, it well may be the case. I have opened my 2072a to fix the ADC clock problem and what I found beside that problem was bunch of other hardware related problems all over the board, along and across. In one instance reviewing a circuit that occupied 1 square inch of space on the  PCB I counted 10 design errors! Wrong component selection, wrong design, wrong circuit layout. 10 errors per sq inch, that tells me something. And that is:

- No more rigol shit of any kind on my bench. Never again.


Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2015, 03:16:27 pm »
If you can't do real work with one of these things, in spite of a couple of firmware bugs, it's not the scope's fault.  ::)  I've seen far far worse in far more expensive equipment from folks like Agilent, Tektronics, Newport, Melles Griot, National Instruments, etc...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 03:24:18 pm by John Coloccia »
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2015, 03:46:36 pm »
 

Offline dcac

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2015, 03:48:14 pm »
Unable to freeze my scope whatever setting I seem to try after going in or out of zoom mode, only effect is the UI sometimes seems slightly slower. Tried first with FW 04.02 then upgraded to 04.03 - same result.

My 1054Z was purchased in mid January and has all options except 100Mhz and 500uV enabled.

I've had other problems though that required a reboot, i.e. for some reason it started to refuse to react in single trigger mode. In normal mode though I had a nice and steady trigger.
Only after a reboot, without changing anything else the problem was gone and single mode reacted again as it should. This has only happened 2-3 times and I've never been able to reproduce what caused it.

EDIT: just to clarify, the single trigger problem didn't cause my scope to freeze, it just didn't trigger in single trigger mode. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 03:55:04 pm by dcac »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2015, 05:26:39 pm »
Thanks for your report. Just to be completely clear.... you did try the following?

1. Display a signal on CH1 from the probe Calibrator, at 1V/div, trigger type Edge, trigger level 2.00 V, sweep mode Auto
2. Set Horizontal Scale to 1 us/div
3. Select "Auto" from Acquire>Mem Depth menu
4. Select "100 ms" from Display>Persis. Time menu
5. Enter Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob

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Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2015, 06:45:15 pm »
[Rigol #$%§ ... !!!]
Bad day?
So you've not studied Bud and MarkL's analysis of the 1054z then?  :-//
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2015, 06:46:50 pm »
[Rigol #$%§ ... !!!]
Bad day?
So you've not studied Bud and MarkL's analysis of the 1054z then?  :-//

Link please  ?
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Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2015, 07:00:24 pm »
[Rigol #$%§ ... !!!]
Bad day?
So you've not studied Bud and MarkL's analysis of the 1054z then?  :-//

Link please  ?
Some of the "nitty gritty" is here and the following page/s:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg563330/#msg563330

REMEMBER these guys uncovered the design flaws for us all to see.  :-+
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Offline Tainer

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2015, 07:39:44 pm »
So what is the point? Rigol products are crap because they have firmware bugs? What utter nonsense!
Some guy found out that 1054z has jitter issues and after it was covered on the eevblog everyone is talking about jitter. Let's face it - the majority of users wouldn't even notice this issue in the first place, so I'm not surprised this bug slipped through QC. I'm sure the lock-up issue on some units will be addressed in a firmware update as well.

EDIT: I've just had a look at the thread linked above. Sorry tautech, I couldn't detect sarcasm at first - no hard feelings  :D
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 07:50:44 pm by Tainer »
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2015, 07:40:41 pm »
Some of the "nitty gritty" is here and the following page/s:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg563330/#msg563330

REMEMBER these guys uncovered the design flaws for us all to see.  :-+

So what? Rigol did not get the operating parameters for the clock PLL quite right, resulting in a clock jitter noticable on the scope display in certain measurements -- presumably more so with some, less with some other chips. They fixed the error rather promptly via a firmware update, such that no impact remains visible when using the scope. Only analysing the clock signal with external equipment, in the time or frequency domain, shows remaining impurities of the clock; but no one seems to have shown an effect on the operation of the scope.

That leaves me rather pleased with my DS1054Z, and reasonably satisfied with Rigol's behavior in addressing the initial design flaw. My sympathy to all who are still in agony about this...
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2015, 07:45:46 pm »
My sympathy to all who are still in agony about this...
:-DD
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Offline dcac

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2015, 07:46:43 pm »
Thanks for your report. Just to be completely clear.... you did try the following?

1. Display a signal on CH1 from the probe Calibrator, at 1V/div, trigger type Edge, trigger level 2.00 V, sweep mode Auto
2. Set Horizontal Scale to 1 us/div
3. Select "Auto" from Acquire>Mem Depth menu
4. Select "100 ms" from Display>Persis. Time menu
5. Enter Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob

Yeah, checked it again using that exact sequence and all I can notice is a slight hesitation on the screen update when going into H Zoom mode. I did it 5-6 times and the behaviour seems consistent.

Looking at your video, using that sequence, it seems all the controls goes unresponsive but the scope it self is continuing to operate and updating the display with the waveform. So is something triggering the KeyLock feature? and is the KeyLock feature otherwise working normally? just a thought...

 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2015, 08:47:53 pm »
Thanks for your report. Just to be completely clear.... you did try the following?

1. Display a signal on CH1 from the probe Calibrator, at 1V/div, trigger type Edge, trigger level 2.00 V, sweep mode Auto
2. Set Horizontal Scale to 1 us/div
3. Select "Auto" from Acquire>Mem Depth menu
4. Select "100 ms" from Display>Persis. Time menu
5. Enter Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob

Yeah, checked it again using that exact sequence and all I can notice is a slight hesitation on the screen update when going into H Zoom mode. I did it 5-6 times and the behaviour seems consistent.

Looking at your video, using that sequence, it seems all the controls goes unresponsive but the scope it self is continuing to operate and updating the display with the waveform. So is something triggering the KeyLock feature? and is the KeyLock feature otherwise working normally? just a thought...

Thanks for checking again. This seems to confirm that the problem only affects some, perhaps half, of the scopes tested. That is really strange.
 
Yes, the scope continues to display a live waveform when the controls freeze.

The KeyLock feature seems to be working normally: When the KeyLock feature is set to "Lock" by the button in the Utility menu, pressing any key brings up a notice "Keyboard Locked!" But this notice does not appear in the "frozen" state when one presses a key.

Also, when the scope is "frozen" it does not respond to an attempt to connect via Telnet over the LAN.

When it is legitimately "locked" with the KeyLock feature it accepts a Telnet connection and responds to the :SYSTem:LOCKed? query and other SCPI commands and can be unlocked by sending the :SYSTem:LOCKed 0 command. If the scope is connected via Telnet and then the "freeze bug" is initiated while connected, the scope no longer responds to SCPI commands over the Telnet connection and cannot be unfrozen by the SCPI commands.

Also, I can "freeze" the scope by sending the appropriate SCPI commands over the Telnet connection, at which point it stops responding to the remote connection:

:DISPlay:GRADing:TIME 0.1
:ACQuire:MDEPth AUTO
:TIMebase:DELay:ENABle 1
 
-- and the scope freezes, stops responding to the Telnet connection, and requires a reboot. But it still shows a live waveform !!
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Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #87 on: June 05, 2015, 08:56:13 pm »
-- and the scope freezes, stops responding to the Telnet connection, and requires a reboot. But it still shows a live waveform !!
So more of a lockup than a freeze?
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Offline Tainer

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #88 on: June 05, 2015, 09:26:24 pm »
Just a guess: the processor encounters some critical exception, but FPGA keeps operating as usual. That might explain why the waveforms are still updating and the rest of the scope is unresponsive.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #89 on: June 05, 2015, 09:53:06 pm »
-- and the scope freezes, stops responding to the Telnet connection, and requires a reboot. But it still shows a live waveform !!
So more of a lockup than a freeze?

A rose by any other name....

Sure, call it a Lockup if you like. I'm sorry if I confused anyone by calling it a "freeze bug". The fact remains that it cannot be "unlocked" by any means other than a hard reboot. When it is simply "locked" it puts up the message when a key is pressed, it responds to the remote commands and can be unlocked remotely or by pressing the "unlock" key on the scope.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 09:55:15 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2015, 09:57:24 pm »
Just a guess: the processor encounters some critical exception, but FPGA keeps operating as usual. That might explain why the waveforms are still updating and the rest of the scope is unresponsive.

So how to explain why some scopes do it and others don't?  A run of subtly defective chips installed? It might be interesting to examine the serial numbers of the scopes that do and don't have the bug.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2015, 12:58:11 am »
In regards to your hardware issue guess, it well may be the case. I have opened my 2072a to fix the ADC clock problem and what I found beside that problem was bunch of other hardware related problems all over the board, along and across. In one instance reviewing a circuit that occupied 1 square inch of space on the  PCB I counted 10 design errors! Wrong component selection, wrong design, wrong circuit layout. 10 errors per sq inch,

Have you detailed these errors somewhere, and especially the corrections you'd make to fix the errors you found?   If so, where did you write them up?

If not, why not?   Such an analysis could be immensely useful, or at the very least highly instructive.
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2015, 07:03:18 am »
How about other models of the DS1000Z series? Do they show the same issue?
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2015, 07:28:03 am »
It would seem likely that the variations in DS1054Zs  'Freezing or not' is a a combination of both h/w and f/w interaction.  Variations in the speed of response/timing of the h/w could fall outside the f/w expectations.  The occasional fact of the eventual recovery would imply that sometimes the f/w window of opportunity enables the f/w to recover and to continue operate correctly.  A number of members have commented on the slowness of response to key presses sometimes so perhaps this is an occasion when h/w variation has delayed a bit to long.  What do members think?
 

Offline g8bnr

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2015, 07:42:49 am »
Hi,
I voted that I could not reproduce the initial problem, but, after following the second video, with the calibrator and 1uS/div, I can, consistantly, reproduce this lock-up condition. Sorry for the confusion caused, hope that Rigol fix this promptly. My unit uses Software Version 00.04.02 SP4 with board version 0.2.3 and, apart from this issue, is superb value for money.

73 Dick G8BNR
 

Offline cs.dk

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2015, 09:26:00 am »
I can reproduce the freezing bug to >:(
EDIT: Running the new 4.03 FW..
 

Offline bill21

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2015, 02:12:50 pm »
I am able to reproduce the bug on 4.02.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2015, 02:54:40 pm »
OK, so now we have a "random" sample of at least 25 scopes (some people have replied in comments on my YT videos, that aren't reflected in this thread) and we are running nearly exactly half-and-half (if we take g8bnr's initial "no" vote and move it to "yes", for example.) 

So where is Rigol on this issue? Where's Dave?  Based on our sample we can expect _half_ of all the DS1054 units out there to have this problem.


I'm sure glad I didn't know about this bug when I ordered my scope ! I might have selected some other manufacturer's product for purchase instead! And then I would have missed out on all the joys of owning a Rigol DS1054Z product!

(Hello, Rigol.... are you out there? Dave? Earth to Dave, come in please...... over.......) 
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2015, 03:18:26 pm »
...
So where is Rigol on this issue? Where's Dave?  Based on our sample we can expect _half_ of all the DS1054 units out there to have this problem.
...
(Hello, Rigol.... are you out there? Dave? Earth to Dave, come in please...... over.......)

I'll repeat it again, did anyone reported the issue to Rigol? or do you really need Dave to do the work? or hope Rigol finds this thread?

http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2015, 04:02:40 pm »
Here's the text of the note I sent to Rigol Tech Support:

Quote
Are you aware of this problem? It seems to affect about half of the DS1054Z scopes that have tested for it (over 25 as I write this, with at least 13 affected). The problem occurs in scopes running firmware 04.03 and also in scopes running 04.02.
The scope "locks up" and does not respond to any user input (buttons, knobs, SCPI commands over LAN) and requires a power-cycle reboot. To reproduce the condition reliably, start with CH1 probe connected to Calibrator for a signal (although any signal or even no signal will also work). Set Horizontal timebase to 1 us/div or faster. Set Memory Depth to AUTO. Set Display Persistence Time to 100 ms, or any value other than "min". Enter Horizontal Zoom (Delayed) mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob or by using the menu item button. Scope locks up at this point. Or do the steps in different sequence, like have Mem Depth set at some value other than Auto, enter Horizontal Zoom then select "Auto" Mem Depth... scope locks up. The scope continues to show a live waveform but is completely unresponsive to any knobs or button presses. In this state, it also does not recognize attempts to connect over the LAN using Telnet. If the LAN connection is already established before the scope freezes, it stops responding to SCPI commands (connection is dropped).
The only way to restore function is to power-cycle the scope. Sometimes even power-cycling results in continued lockup and then the scope needs to be reset using the "5th Left Menu Button" reset technique which results in the scope coming up in Chinese (but operational.)
Please check the EEVBlog thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/
And my videos demonstrating the bug:


Thank you for your attention to this matter. A perfectly legitimate combination of user settings should never cause an instrument to lock up completely requiring a hard reboot, and the fact that the "bug" appears in approximately half the units tested, using 04.02 and 04.03 firmwares equally, is very strange.

I have not yet received a reply.

One of the commenters on my videos has also contacted Rigol (in the UK I believe) by phone several days ago, and their technician was not able to reproduce the bug on his demo scope during the phone call. I do not know what has happened since then with that contact. 

As we have seen reported here several times, some people who initially reported not being able to reproduce it, later were indeed able to do so.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2015, 04:07:34 pm »
...
So where is Rigol on this issue? Where's Dave?  Based on our sample we can expect _half_ of all the DS1054 units out there to have this problem.
...
(Hello, Rigol.... are you out there? Dave? Earth to Dave, come in please...... over.......)

I'll repeat it again, did anyone reported the issue to Rigol? or do you really need Dave to do the work? or hope Rigol finds this thread?

http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/

I think a lot of people (like me for instance) selected this scope for purchase, at least in part because of Dave's somewhat "over the top" reviews of this scope. And we recall the trigger jitter issue, and Dave's treatment of that and Rigol's response to his input. In my opinion this issue is at least as important as the trigger jitter issue, and by now it is solidly documented as a reproducible bug in half the scopes tested, from a reasonably large sample. So I think it would be nice for everyone if Dave could report on this issue, since he has a lot more "street cred" than anyone else in these matters. If Dave can't reproduce the bug on his own unit, let him try three others. Chances are he'll find one with the bug.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2015, 04:16:08 pm »
I dont think Dave needs to be involved. I shot him a pm because I thought it would be a quick, easy video for him if he can reproduce it, but what does he have to do with it other than that?  if it really bothered me enough, I could still return mine to tequipment, but its specific enough , and has enough workarouns (just dont use auto depth) that it's not all that critical, IMHO. The jitter bugvwas a show stopper.

when I have a chance, ill report it to Rigol as well. I guess we all should, just to make sure. ill even offer to send them my scope to debug so long as they provide a replacement to use and pay for shipping.

sent from my phone...sorry for all the typos.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 04:19:42 pm by John Coloccia »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2015, 04:48:04 pm »
Well, one of the "gotchas" seems to be that the scope _sometimes_ doesn't remember the Mem Depth setting between power cycles, even if you have Utility>System>Power Set to "Last".

I haven't tracked down the full set of circumstances to repeat _this_ bug yet. But it appears that if I have just one channel turned on, Acquire Mode Normal with Mem Depth set to 24M, and cycle the power, the scope keeps the 24M setting. But if I have all four channels turned on, with Mem Depth set to 6M (max for 4ch operation) and cycle the power, the scope comes up with "Auto" Mem Depth. But since the scope comes up with the "Utility" menu displayed, the user might not notice that the Mem Depth setting isn't where it was left, and inadvertently enter the Freeze-Lock condition.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline willigo3

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2015, 04:49:42 pm »
I bought the DS1054Z 3 weeks ago and can also reproduce the error. Firmware Version 4.02.

Hopefully Dave can also take a test and Rigol read here.

regards,
Willi
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2015, 05:26:21 pm »
Thanks for reporting in. Now the "CANs" are leading the "CAN'Ts" slightly (the poll above doesn't include all the "CANs" that have reported to me.)

And... I just managed to capture the "Green Line" display glitch, which seems to be somehow related to the Trigger.  This is only the second time I've seen this glitch and I don't know the circumstances required to reproduce it. It disappears when the scope is "Stopped" but reappears when "Run" is selected, so I had to put up with a long delay while the scope saved the shot to the USB stick.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2015, 05:56:24 pm »
Well, one of the "gotchas" seems to be that the scope _sometimes_ doesn't remember the Mem Depth setting between power cycles, even if you have Utility>System>Power Set to "Last".

I haven't tracked down the full set of circumstances to repeat _this_ bug yet. But it appears that if I have just one channel turned on, Acquire Mode Normal with Mem Depth set to 24M, and cycle the power, the scope keeps the 24M setting. But if I have all four channels turned on, with Mem Depth set to 6M (max for 4ch operation) and cycle the power, the scope comes up with "Auto" Mem Depth. But since the scope comes up with the "Utility" menu displayed, the user might not notice that the Mem Depth setting isn't where it was left, and inadvertently enter the Freeze-Lock condition.

Because of this little "gotcha" it is actually possible for the scope to _boot up_ in the frozen (locked) state, even if it was running normally when shut down!! I've just shot a video documenting this "feature", which requires a "5th left menu button" reset, which of course loses whatever setup you had on the scope when you shut it down.

For example, say you are in Horiz. Zoom mode, 4 channels, with 6M set in the Mem Depth and 100 ms Persistence set. All is copacetic, everything is fine, your "workaround" is working. Now you turn the scope off for lunch. When you return you start the scope up.... and it's frozen immediately, because the Mem Depth reset to "Auto" and now the conditions for the bug are satisfied. What if you don't know about the 5th button reset, and what if your complicated setup hasn't been saved to disk?

So if anyone doesn't think a scope that boots up LOCKED/FROZEN isn't a significant problem comparable or exceeding the jitter issue.... I beg to differ with you. Especially since that "5th menu button" trick doesn't seem to be officially documented in the User Manual for the scope. People not reading this forum, finding themselves with a locked scope on bootup, may start to experience a little bit of stress, if you know what I mean.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #106 on: June 06, 2015, 07:17:34 pm »
Well, I went and reported it too.  I guess really everyone should just report it so it doesn't fall on the floor.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #107 on: June 06, 2015, 07:28:58 pm »
I just got an email from Rigol, probably an auto-response, but they have assigned a Support Case Number and a technician to look into the issue. I imagine they are all off for the weekend so I don't expect to hear anything more for a few days.

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline kenw232

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #108 on: June 06, 2015, 07:52:54 pm »
If anyone cares I've had my DS1054Z freeze but can't reproduce it.  I haven't tried to reproduce it though.  Firmware was 4.02 I think, I upgrade to 4.03 fine.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2015, 08:08:52 pm »
If anyone cares I've had my DS1054Z freeze but can't reproduce it.  I haven't tried to reproduce it though.  Firmware was 4.02 I think, I upgrade to 4.03 fine.

Yes, someone cares. Please try to use the steps outlined above and in my videos to see if yours will lock up under those conditions.

The easiest way to do it is first to go to Storage>Default (press the button) and this will reset most everything to the basic settings, with CH1 on.
Then:
Connect the probe to the Calibrator to show a signal.
Verify that the Horizontal Timebase is set to 1us/div.
In Display>Persis Time, set 100ms.
In Acquire>Mem Depth, set Auto.
Enter the Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Or by selecting Delayed ON in the Horizontal menu.
If you've got the Bug, the scope will freeze now.

If it's still frozen after you cycle the power, you have to use the "5th dark grey button pressed repeatedly" during power on startup to get back to Factory Default mode.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2015, 08:24:43 pm »
Here's the link to my latest video, showing how the scope can actually _start up_ in the frozen state, after being shut down while running perfectly normally.



The easiest way to reproduce this is probably like this:

Disconnect all the probes. Go to Storage>Default (press button) and the scope will reset to most all defaults, with CH1 turned on. Verify that it is at 1.00 us/div.

Now turn on all the other channels. The traces will overlay in the center of the screen, that's OK.
Set Utility>System>Power Set = Last.
Set Display>Persis Time = 100 ms.
Set Acquire>Mem Depth = 6M (or highest available).
Now enter Horizontal Zoom by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Everything still works, right? Not frozen, because you have 6M set instead of Auto in Mem Depth. Fine.

Now _exit_ horizontal zoom, and cycle the power. When the scope boots up, see if the Acquire>Mem Depth has changed to Auto. If it has... then you've got that little bug too.

So change it back to 6M.
Now enter Horizontal Zoom mode. Everything still works, right? Not frozen.....

Now cycle the power again, while still in Horizontal Zoom. If you've got the bug like I do, the scope will start up _in the frozen state_ and you can't even do anything about it. This happens because the Mem Depth has forgotten you set it to 6M and has reset itself to Auto, hence fulfilling all the conditions for lock-up.

Congratulations... you may think you have now just bricked your scope. Fortunately it will come back to life with the "5th button" procedure.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline gmb42

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2015, 10:19:02 pm »
Bug not present with original firmware 4.01.SP2, nor after upgrade to 4.03.  No apparent slowdown in the UI either.  No "upgrade" codes entered.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2015, 10:32:29 pm »
Bug not present with original firmware 4.01.SP2, nor after upgrade to 4.03.  No apparent slowdown in the UI either.  No "upgrade" codes entered.

Thanks for your report. So you've owned your scope for some time, then, since you had 04.01 originally?
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline gmb42

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2015, 11:24:30 pm »
Ordered November 2014, delivered in Dec.
 

Offline GonzoTheGreat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2015, 11:38:08 pm »
Please try to use the steps outlined above and in my videos to see if yours will lock up under those conditions.

The easiest way to do it is first to go to Storage>Default (press the button) and this will reset most everything to the basic settings, with CH1 on.
Then:
Connect the probe to the Calibrator to show a signal (Do you recommend x1 or x10 probe setup? )
Verify that the Horizontal Timebase is set to 1us/div.
In Display>Persis Time, set 100ms.
In Acquire>Mem Depth, set Auto.
Enter the Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Or by selecting Delayed ON in the Horizontal menu.
If you've got the Bug, the scope will freeze now.

I think we are not paying sufficient attention to the signal appearing on the scope's input, when attempting to reproduce this bug.
You originally stumbled upon it when doing some nanopulse shit ...didn't you?

Are all calibrating signals the same across all models? 
Do all bug replicators bother to apply the same signal to the scope's input?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 11:45:56 pm by GonzoTheGreat »
 

Offline LightlyDoped

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2015, 11:53:25 pm »
Try as I might, I can't get the scope to freeze following the posted steps. The scope's responsiveness does become sluggish while in zoom mode with the persistence set to anything other than min. (This is my second post, so I've already been counted. I wanted to see if a cold start might affect the outcome.)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 11:55:21 pm by LightlyDoped »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #116 on: June 07, 2015, 12:01:36 am »
Please try to use the steps outlined above and in my videos to see if yours will lock up under those conditions.

The easiest way to do it is first to go to Storage>Default (press the button) and this will reset most everything to the basic settings, with CH1 on.
Then:
Connect the probe to the Calibrator to show a signal (Do you recommend x1 or x10 probe setup? )
Verify that the Horizontal Timebase is set to 1us/div.
In Display>Persis Time, set 100ms.
In Acquire>Mem Depth, set Auto.
Enter the Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Or by selecting Delayed ON in the Horizontal menu.
If you've got the Bug, the scope will freeze now.

I think we are not paying sufficient attention to the signal appearing on the scope's input, when attempting to reproduce this bug.
You originally stumbled upon it when doing some nanopulse shit ...didn't you?

Are all calibrating signals the same across all models? 
Do all bug replicators bother to apply the same signal to the scope's input?

I almost always use 10x probe attenuation and channel setting to match, so I forget sometimes to specify it. You can take it as "default" that I am using 10x attenuation unless I mention otherwise. Sorry for not being explicit in the first place.

Yes, I first stumbled across it when doing "some nanopulse shit" as you say... if you can call 200 ns pulse width "nanopulse"...  but as I and others have shown, it is possible to reproduce the bug with the Probe Calibrator input signal, or even no signal at all. At least on my scope it is.

The Probe Calibrator for the DS1054Z produces a positive-going 1 kHz square wave, 50 percent duty cycle, at roughly 3 V peak. This type of signal is pretty standard for probe calibrators on low-BW instruments. Display it at 500 microseconds/div and each half-cycle takes up exactly one graticule division and it looks nice and square. If you look at this signal at 1 us/div you only see a small part of it and you can see how slow the rise time (or fall time, depending on which edge you are triggering on) actually is.

I can't speak for other bug replicators so I don't know what signals they are using. For me, the signal doesn't seem to matter, as long as I am looking at it at 1 microsecond/division or faster. Slower sometimes, too, but the 1 us/div setting works every time.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #117 on: June 07, 2015, 12:03:55 am »
Try as I might, I can't get the scope to freeze following the posted steps. The scope's responsiveness does become sluggish while in zoom mode with the persistence set to anything other than min. (This is my second post, so I've already been counted. I wanted to see if a cold start might affect the outcome.)

Thanks for reporting. I'm fairly convinced now that there are two populations of scopes, one definitely with the bug and one without. So you are probably in proud possession of a scope that doesn't have the bug. Rejoyce!

It would be nice to know what the difference is between the two populations.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Bob F.

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #118 on: June 07, 2015, 02:06:29 am »
Please try to use the steps outlined above and in my videos to see if yours will lock up under those conditions.

The easiest way to do it is first to go to Storage>Default (press the button) and this will reset most everything to the basic settings, with CH1 on.
Then:
Connect the probe to the Calibrator to show a signal (Do you recommend x1 or x10 probe setup? )
Verify that the Horizontal Timebase is set to 1us/div.
In Display>Persis Time, set 100ms.
In Acquire>Mem Depth, set Auto.
Enter the Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Or by selecting Delayed ON in the Horizontal menu.
If you've got the Bug, the scope will freeze now.

I think we are not paying sufficient attention to the signal appearing on the scope's input, when attempting to reproduce this bug.
You originally stumbled upon it when doing some nanopulse shit ...didn't you?

Are all calibrating signals the same across all models? 
Do all bug replicators bother to apply the same signal to the scope's input?

Mine freezes with the calibration signal on channel 1 and with no signal at all.  It is the timebase setting that is a part of the equation: mine freezes at anything shorter  than 20us/div and I saw some slow-down in the scope's response to keypresses at 50us/div.

Cheers, Bob.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 12:40:52 pm by Bob F. »
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #119 on: June 07, 2015, 03:30:41 am »
Mine freezes up with no signal at all.  I didn't even bother trying it with a signal.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #120 on: June 07, 2015, 04:11:17 am »
Thanks for the reports.

Has anyone looked to see if they have the second bug that allows the scope to start up frozen, even after being shut down while running normally?

That is, does the Mem Depth "automatically" reset itself to Auto, no matter what you had it set at when shutting down, even though you have "Last" set in the Power Set option?  (This one may depend on all four channels being turned on, I'm still not sure about that.)
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Offline bitwelder

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #121 on: June 07, 2015, 06:29:16 am »
It would be nice to know what the difference is between the two populations.
Are all DS1054Z of Board Version 0.1.1? If so, no other h/w designator on the scope (perhaps hidden as part of S/N)?
 

Online Towger

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #122 on: June 07, 2015, 08:00:49 am »
Are all DS1054Z of Board Version 0.1.1? If so, no other h/w designator on the scope (perhaps hidden as part of S/N)?

There are a set of resistors on the pcb to set the version. 
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #123 on: June 07, 2015, 10:31:16 am »

The easiest way to reproduce this is probably like this:

Disconnect all the probes. Go to Storage>Default (press button) and the scope will reset to most all defaults, with CH1 turned on. Verify that it is at 1.00 us/div.

Now turn on all the other channels. The traces will overlay in the center of the screen, that's OK.
Set Utility>System>Power Set = Last.
Set Display>Persis Time = 100 ms.
Set Acquire>Mem Depth = 6M (or highest available).
Now enter Horizontal Zoom by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob. Everything still works, right? Not frozen, because you have 6M set instead of Auto in Mem Depth. Fine.

Now _exit_ horizontal zoom, and cycle the power. When the scope boots up, see if the Acquire>Mem Depth has changed to Auto. If it has... then you've got that little bug too.

So change it back to 6M.
Now enter Horizontal Zoom mode. Everything still works, right? Not frozen.....

Now cycle the power again, while still in Horizontal Zoom. If you've got the bug like I do, the scope will start up _in the frozen state_ and you can't even do anything about it. This happens because the Mem Depth has forgotten you set it to 6M and has reset itself to Auto, hence fulfilling all the conditions for lock-up.


After performing a full reset with the fifth button procedure and resetting the language to English, I followed through your procedure above to the letter, yes the Mem Depth set itself to auto, but the scope did not freeze at the end. Its response is a little sluggish, but it didn't hang.

FWIW, my unit is an MSO1074Z-S, 00.04.02.SP4, board version 6.1.1.

Although I set the Power Set to Last as per the instructions, I normally have it set to Default because of the way I prefer to work, although I can certainly see why some prefer the Last settings used.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #124 on: June 07, 2015, 10:55:34 am »
Thanks for your report. It's "nice" to see that your scope also resets Mem Depth to "Auto" when it shouldn't .... this is almost certainly a separate software bug. The fact that your MSO1074Z-S can't reproduce the basic freezeup bug is also interesting, since the board inside your scope is very different from the DS1054Z board. This reinforces my opinion that the Bug is due to some bad hardware somewhere, perhaps a bad production run of some chip inside the DS1054Z specifically.

I hope you didn't "vote" in the poll, since we are here trying to document the bug in the DS1054Z scopes!

As far as using the "Last" setting vs "default" for the power-on settings... I think it's a great convenience that the scope remembers (mostly) how it was set when it was last shut down. This makes working with complicated setups much easier. However, it is still possible .... in the DS1054Z ... to cause the scope to "freeze" instantly, if one has the right conditions stored in a user setup file, which is loaded after startup.
After all, if the scope is _not_ frozen, it is a matter of only two button presses (Storage>Default) to set the scope back to the Default setup state _IF_ it is actually responding to the controls.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 11:01:42 am by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #125 on: June 07, 2015, 11:00:20 am »
The boards are the same, just with more bits populated.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #126 on: June 07, 2015, 11:06:31 am »
The boards are the same, just with more bits populated.
Therefore the boards are _different_.

You have back panel connectors, front panel connectors, extra buttons, chips, many software settings that are not present in the DS1054Z. Right? It may use the same _basic_ PC board but how can you equate "Board version 6.1.1" with the 0.1.1 version that is in the DSO1054Z? 

Never mind. If you think your scope is the same as a DS1054Z, ask yourself why you paid so much more money for yours.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #127 on: June 07, 2015, 11:45:19 am »
Blimey, I'd try getting out of the other side of the bed tomorrow!

I'd have thought there was enough similarity such that the input is worth noting down. They use the same firmware releases.

The -S is a daughter board and an extra button on the front panel. The MSO is a few extra populated parts on the main board, and an extra button and connector on the front panel.

The price differential is because they can get away with it, the raw cost in parts is less than $20 between a DS1054Z and an MSO1100Z. Similarly, the -S daughter board plug in is about $30.

Should you also discount DS1074Z(-S) and DS1100Z(-S) users too?
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #128 on: June 07, 2015, 11:49:06 am »
Thanks for your report. Just to be completely clear.... you did try the following?

1. Display a signal on CH1 from the probe Calibrator, at 1V/div, trigger type Edge, trigger level 2.00 V, sweep mode Auto
2. Set Horizontal Scale to 1 us/div
3. Select "Auto" from Acquire>Mem Depth menu
4. Select "100 ms" from Display>Persis. Time menu
5. Enter Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob

I can reproduce it on my "upgraded" DS1054Z running 00.04.03, Board Version 0.1.1, using the instructions above.
 

Offline smithnerd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #129 on: June 07, 2015, 12:26:21 pm »
Just reproduced the bug on a new DS1054Z (about 1 month old).

Software Version 00.04.02.SP4
Board Version 0.1.1

Will lock up without any input.

 

Offline tech5940

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #130 on: June 07, 2015, 07:39:48 pm »
I'm also able to reproduce the bug. Software 00.04.03  Board 0.1.1  My scope is unmodified with the trials expired.


Sent from my iPhone
 

Offline GonzoTheGreat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #131 on: June 07, 2015, 10:44:15 pm »
My board's revision is also 0.1.1 and I can replicate the lockup.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #132 on: June 08, 2015, 01:56:37 am »
Blimey, I'd try getting out of the other side of the bed tomorrow!

I'd have thought there was enough similarity such that the input is worth noting down. They use the same firmware releases.

The -S is a daughter board and an extra button on the front panel. The MSO is a few extra populated parts on the main board, and an extra button and connector on the front panel.

The price differential is because they can get away with it, the raw cost in parts is less than $20 between a DS1054Z and an MSO1100Z. Similarly, the -S daughter board plug in is about $30.

Should you also discount DS1074Z(-S) and DS1100Z(-S) users too?
I do apologize for being terse.
 
But yes, the introduction of different models into the survey adds too many variables to the mix. As far as I am aware, the problem has not been reported in those models, or in yours. So you should be able to see that including a "no" vote from a population of _different_ models that have not exhibited the bug is kind of "statistically invalid". While the scopes do use (mostly) the same hardware and software, it is quite likely that they come off different production lines, have their components picked from different reels or batches, etc.  I appreciate your trying the test, but even if you had reproduced the bug I still would object to including the result in _this_ poll.
 
If anyone with a different 1000 series model actually _can_ reproduce the bug as it is detailed here -- then we can start another poll if you like, widening the catch to all 1000 series scopes, or specifically dealing with one or the other of the models.
 
The DS1054Z, "hacked" to 100MHz, or "virgin" unhacked, and running Firmware revisions 04.02 and 04.03, are subject to the Bug in about 50 percent of the units tested, or perhaps even more.

I'd still like to know if those who have the Bug can reproduce the "start-up-frozen" state after shutting down an _unfrozen_ scope, as I show in the video above. It's quite easy to do, since the fact that the Mem Depth automatically resets to "Auto" means that one of the bug conditions is set for you by the scope when you start up. All you need is the three other conditions: Persistence other than Min, main timebase 1us/div or faster, and Delayed timebase (horizontal zoom) engaged. Shut down (with "last" as your power-on setup setting) in that state and when you restart... your scope is locked from the get-go.


The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #133 on: June 08, 2015, 02:00:02 am »
Thank you all for your reports, and your efforts trying the conditions for the Bug. Still running about half-and-half. This issue should get Rigol's attention, since we have a pretty good sample size by now. There is definitely something wrong.
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #134 on: June 08, 2015, 02:45:34 am »
I'd still like to know if those who have the Bug can reproduce the "start-up-frozen" state after shutting down an _unfrozen_ scope, as I show in the video above. It's quite easy to do, since the fact that the Mem Depth automatically resets to "Auto" means that one of the bug conditions is set for you by the scope when you start up. All you need is the three other conditions: Persistence other than Min, main timebase 1us/div or faster, and Delayed timebase (horizontal zoom) engaged. Shut down (with "last" as your power-on setup setting) in that state and when you restart... your scope is locked from the get-go.

I have reproduced that issue as well.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #135 on: June 08, 2015, 02:51:43 pm »
I'd still like to know if those who have the Bug can reproduce the "start-up-frozen" state after shutting down an _unfrozen_ scope, as I show in the video above. It's quite easy to do, since the fact that the Mem Depth automatically resets to "Auto" means that one of the bug conditions is set for you by the scope when you start up. All you need is the three other conditions: Persistence other than Min, main timebase 1us/div or faster, and Delayed timebase (horizontal zoom) engaged. Shut down (with "last" as your power-on setup setting) in that state and when you restart... your scope is locked from the get-go.

I have reproduced that issue as well.

Thanks for your report. I imagine that all the units that have the Bug will also be able to reproduce this one as well.

I've had email this morning from Jason the Rigol Tech, who has been assigned this problem. No information from him yet, other than that "they are aware" of the problem and they'll get back to me.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline n4in

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #136 on: June 08, 2015, 08:04:31 pm »
OK initially I was not able to cause my DS1054Z upgraded with 4.03 to freeze but now I can using all four channels as described.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #137 on: June 08, 2015, 08:18:51 pm »
OK initially I was not able to cause my DS1054Z upgraded with 4.03 to freeze but now I can using all four channels as described.

Thanks for your report. Perhaps you could now try reducing the number of channels one by one to see if you can get it to do it with fewer channels selected.


The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #138 on: June 08, 2015, 08:19:46 pm »
And.... just in case anyone was wondering....

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #139 on: June 08, 2015, 08:42:55 pm »
And... I just caught another instance of the Green Line display glitch again.

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Bob F.

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #140 on: June 08, 2015, 08:48:40 pm »
In addition to the original freeze issue, my scope will reset the Mem Depth to Auto when I power cycle it.

Narrowing down the exact conditions is problematic as it always resets to Auto if Channel 3 or 4 are selected on power down, but sometimes Chan 1 and/or Chan 2 alone or together will do it too...  Also always resets to auto if no channels are selected.

 :scared:

Cheers, Bob.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #141 on: June 08, 2015, 09:28:20 pm »
In addition to the original freeze issue, my scope will reset the Mem Depth to Auto when I power cycle it.

Narrowing down the exact conditions is problematic as it always resets to Auto if Channel 3 or 4 are selected on power down, but sometimes Chan 1 and/or Chan 2 alone or together will do it too...  Also always resets to auto if no channels are selected.

 :scared:

Cheers, Bob.

Thanks for your report. So most likely you will also be able to get your scope to start up in the locked state, after shutting down in perfectly running order, as I showed above.
Thank goodness for the "5th left menu button" reset capability!

I still haven't heard anything more from Rigol Tech Support.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline n4in

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #142 on: June 08, 2015, 10:53:23 pm »
OK with 3 channels it does not lock up but the Memory Depth going to AUTO when restarted.

I just got this unit from Tequipment.net about 1 week ago and I am trying to decide whether to keep it or return it. I am a hobbyist/Ham that likes to experiment and repair my equipment and my first digit oscilloscope. Not sure I should keep it, I am sure Rigol will come out with a fix but maybe upgrading this unit has pushed it a little beyond it capabilities.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #143 on: June 08, 2015, 11:31:15 pm »
OK with 3 channels it does not lock up but the Memory Depth going to AUTO when restarted.

I just got this unit from Tequipment.net about 1 week ago and I am trying to decide whether to keep it or return it. I am a hobbyist/Ham that likes to experiment and repair my equipment and my first digit oscilloscope. Not sure I should keep it, I am sure Rigol will come out with a fix but maybe upgrading this unit has pushed it a little beyond it capabilities.

Well, as my latest video shows, the Bug doesn't care whether the scope is "upgraded" or not, and I have several other reports of "virgin" never-upgraded units that freeze when the conditions are satisfied.

But it is relatively easy to avoid the Freeze conditions. Mostly it has to do with the Display Persistence setting. I've noticed that having some persistence set also interferes with the FFT updates. The scope's FFT slows to a dead stop if there is some persistence set, but resumes again when the persistence is set back to "min".

So really, to avoid the freezing bug and the FFT halting, just don't use any persistence setting other than "min".  Now that we (mostly) understand what produces the freezing, we can generally avoid the conditions.

Of course it's up to you, but I'm not returning mine just yet, nor am I calling for people not to buy the scope. I'm reasonably confident that Rigol will come up with a fix for this and the other bugs. They may need to completely rewrite the software, though!

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #144 on: June 08, 2015, 11:47:52 pm »
n4in -

It's not a show stopper bug, and it's pretty easy to avoid.  If the scope is doing what you need it to do, you'll be very hard pressed to find a scope under $400 that can replace it.  Ditto for the FFT bug.  I see this scope as a bare bones digital scope with a very nice display, and whatever measurement/math it does beyond the basics is just kind of extra, IMHO.  If you absolutely need more scope than that and need it all perfect, it may not be for you.
 

Offline n4in

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #145 on: June 09, 2015, 02:13:17 am »
I think you are both right, we get tied up in expecting more and not realizing the value.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #146 on: June 09, 2015, 12:55:15 pm »
And.... just in case anyone was wondering....



Yes... I'm really wondering. It has been less than 24 hours since I posted that video to YouTube, and I have not posted a link to it anywhere but right here on this forum. And I've already gotten 5 "thumbs down" votes on it! Yet nobody bothered to leave any kind of negative feedback in the comments, other than the thumbs down votes. And the same people have gone back through the rest of my Rigol demonstration videos and left multiple thumbs downs on them too, just in the past few hours. Yet they are afraid to leave any comments stating what they find objectionable. Imagine!

« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:56:58 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline W7NGA

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #147 on: June 09, 2015, 02:20:02 pm »
I sincerely hope that this bug does not discourage hobbyists from purchasing this scope. I bought the scope last week and immediately put it through the paces of debugging a relatively sophisticated amateur radio application I designed using both SPI and I2C data busses. Never a problem and very impressive performance. I also have an Agilent 7014B right beside it and the only fault I can find is somewhat sluggish operation with everything enabled (triggering/decoding), and the smallish fonts. Yes, there are few other things with persistence (forgetting settings when powered on e.g. measurement font) but for $380 (Tequipment with eevblog discount and free shipping), this thing could lose three channels and I would still be thrilled.

Indeed, it is the best thing going for the hobbyist. I am thinking of purchasing three more for the robotics class I teach. What a bargain!

dan W7NGA
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #148 on: June 09, 2015, 04:36:14 pm »
This scope is really useful due to the advanced triggering. I used duration trigger to get a hold of CAN bus error frames.
Its feature/buck rate is very high compared to a tektronix.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #149 on: June 09, 2015, 05:02:13 pm »
I agree... mostly. The end user should be informed "up front" though as to how to recover from a locked-up scope by using the "Alternate Factory Reset" technique, and should be warned that this condition is quite likely to occur when a simple, legitimate combination of user settings is input to the scope.

It's a shame that the Display>Persistence feature isn't implemented without causing problems though. Say you are looking for jitter and have some persistence time set. Then you want to look at an FFT of your signal.  On my scope the FFT comes to a dead halt (although the scope isn't frozen) if any persistence time is set other than "min".

Also, look at the FFT display itself, even when it is running properly. How is one to know whether one is getting a proper computation of the FFT for a complex signal? The result you get depends on Acquire mode, Mem Depth and Trigger level, as Anand has discovered.

Yes, the scope is definitely still the best "bang for bucks" in terms of price and capability. It also seems to have the most "bugs per bang"! I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying the scope, but I do think that the various bugs, and how to avoid or recover from them, should be "officially" made clear to the owners, and of course should be fixed by Rigol as soon as possible.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 05:11:14 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline W7NGA

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #150 on: June 09, 2015, 05:36:03 pm »
Your FFT display is exactly what I would expect.

Why would you not expect the FFT computation to be dependent on the acquired dataset and the filtering/windowing imposed?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 05:40:36 pm by W7NGA »
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #151 on: June 09, 2015, 05:49:51 pm »
Not entirely sure I really understand the FFT problem either.  I haven't really looked at it yet.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #152 on: June 09, 2015, 11:08:13 pm »
Your FFT display is exactly what I would expect.

Why would you not expect the FFT computation to be dependent on the acquired dataset and the filtering/windowing imposed?
In the two images I showed, the input signal (from the Calibrator) is exactly the same 1kHz square wave, BW limiting is on in both cases, fft Blackman windowing with Center Frequency at 3kHz is used in both cases, trigger level is set the same in both cases, memory depth is the same in both cases, all other signal and scope parameters are the same, except Acquire Mode. The only difference between the two shots is that in one case the Acquire mode is set to Normal, and in the other case the mode is set to High Precision. The FFT of a 1KHz square wave should consist of peaks at the fundamental (1 kHz) and the odd harmonics (3, 5, 7, etc kHz) without the secondary peaks that show up at the _even_ harmonics that are seen in "normal" acquisition mode. But I'm sure you know this already.
Furthermore, even when High Precision is selected, the resulting FFT display depends on Memory Depth, as Anand noted.

Why would you expect the FFT of a fairly clean 1kHz square wave to show peaks at even-numbered harmonics when a scope is set to "normal" acquisition mode, or indeed at any time? Not arguing, just curious. I'm sure that you probably have a lot more experience with digital scopes than I do, or than most DS1054Z purchasers might have. We just expect to see something that looks like what the textbooks show, I guess!



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Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #153 on: June 09, 2015, 11:24:40 pm »
His point, I think, is that there's no such thing as a square wave...it's a squarish wave, and it will not be perfect, so you won't see a perfect spectrum. Only way to really know if it's right or not is to download the waveform and run an FFT on your PC, if you're really interested.

You also have to wonder about the various settings, maybe windowing...whatever.  It's definitely something to investigate for someone who has the time and will, but I wouldn't be ready to declare a problem quite yet.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 11:33:13 pm by John Coloccia »
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #154 on: June 09, 2015, 11:44:49 pm »
This is the rise time of the 1KHz test signal on a DS2000 the DS1000z is probably about the same:



That's 11 divisions at 500ns per division so about 5.5us rise time, so the FFT is not going to be perfect.
Fall time is probably as bad.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #155 on: June 10, 2015, 12:24:58 am »
Sure, but as we asked in another thread... which display is "more correct" then? If you expect to see some "even harmonic energy" due to the slow risetime, why does that show up in the "Normal" mode but not in the "High Resolution" mode? Would one not expect it to be the other way around?

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Offline GlowingGhoul

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #156 on: June 10, 2015, 12:51:28 am »
I sincerely hope that this bug does not discourage hobbyists from purchasing this scope. I bought the scope last week and immediately put it through the paces of debugging a relatively sophisticated amateur radio application I designed using both SPI and I2C data busses. Never a problem and very impressive performance. I also have an Agilent 7014B right beside it and the only fault I can find is somewhat sluggish operation with everything enabled (triggering/decoding), and the smallish fonts. Yes, there are few other things with persistence (forgetting settings when powered on e.g. measurement font) but for $380 (Tequipment with eevblog discount and free shipping), this thing could lose three channels and I would still be thrilled.

Indeed, it is the best thing going for the hobbyist. I am thinking of purchasing three more for the robotics class I teach. What a bargain!

dan W7NGA

I get the feeling you'll be seeing plenty of used units up for sale soon.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #157 on: June 10, 2015, 01:04:19 am »
Sure, but as we asked in another thread... which display is "more correct" then? If you expect to see some "even harmonic energy" due to the slow risetime, why does that show up in the "Normal" mode but not in the "High Resolution" mode? Would one not expect it to be the other way around?

Check w2aew's videos regarding this, of course those scopes he uses have more features but higher price scratch that, he is using just the scope features not the spectrum analyzer so it's about in par what the Rigol can do:

Edit: if you don't feel like going through the videos, on Normal mode it's throwing a lot of samples away depending on the sample rate you select, on high res it doesn't.





I get the feeling you'll be seeing plenty of used units up for sale soon.

I doubt that, they can't keep up with inventory.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 01:22:38 am by miguelvp »
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #158 on: June 10, 2015, 01:11:56 am »
Scopes don't just magically spit out the right answers.
 

Offline W7NGA

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #159 on: June 10, 2015, 02:44:46 am »
Interesting discussion, and I don't mean to be an apologist for all things Rigol.
In fact, there is some merit to the original posters complaint and I shouldn't dismiss it.

Firstly, the Rigol calibration square wave is better than I thought and there is almost zero energy beyond the expected odd-harmonics and the fundamental.
I show this in the first image, from my conventional spectrum analyzer. The signal is outside the working bandwidth but still provides a good relative indication of harmonic content.
The perfect square wave has discontinuities whereas the real world square wave does not. However, there is such a thing as a distorted (non perfect) square wave with additional FFT terms.

The second image is from the Agilent 7014B where the user has no control of the sampling parameters. Here, Agilent does a better job of memory management.
Rigol has an Auto memory depth mode that still allows sampling artifacts to leak thru. This would be confusing to the beginner and a source of potential measurement error/confusion.

The FFT can be a gnarly beast to tame. Clearly, there are critical relationships between array size, sample-rate, memory depth, truncations and windowing, etc. where the user has to have a firm
understanding of their sampling system. I am a little surprised that Rigol doesn't shield the user better in Auto mode but I don't find it limiting. I will concede that it can be confusing however.

dan W7NGA
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #160 on: June 10, 2015, 04:47:44 am »
Thank you for posting those spectra. Indeed, the spectrum analyzer tells the tale.  The even-numbered peaks in the Rigol's FFT of its Calibrator signal when in "Normal" acquisition mode are spurious.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #161 on: June 10, 2015, 05:18:54 am »
Thank you for posting those spectra. Indeed, the spectrum analyzer tells the tale.  The even-numbered peaks in the Rigol's FFT of its Calibrator signal when in "Normal" acquisition mode are spurious.

In "Normal" acquisition at 5Msps when you are only set to 120Ksps sample rate it means you are throwing away 97.6 percent of the sample data so it's producing peaks where none exists.

You really need to set your scope to high-res for FFTs.

 

Offline Armxnian

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #162 on: June 10, 2015, 05:34:55 am »
Can reproduce the freeze bug on .04.02 SP4 board 0.1.1 with all options (except 500microvolt/d) enabled. The mem setting is saved with 1 channel on, but reverts to auto if the scope is powered off with 4 channels enabled and set to power on last.

Edit: Just upgraded to .04.03, and somewhat the same problem. Inputting a 1MHz sine wave instantly locks up the scope after switching the persistence. But inputting a 1KHz sine wave does not. I can change the persistence to all the different settings. I can also increase the frequency to 1MHz again and change the persistence around. But if I exit the zoom mode and enter it again at 1MHz it locks up. Basically, if the scope does not initially crash after switching the persistence mode in zoom mode, I can change the frequency to whatever I want, 5Hz and 25MHz for example, and also change the persistence to whatever I want. Tried to enter at 500KHz and it locked up, seems to be a specific frequency and up that it locks up.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 05:56:58 am by Armxnian »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #163 on: June 10, 2015, 04:04:05 pm »
Thank you for posting those spectra. Indeed, the spectrum analyzer tells the tale.  The even-numbered peaks in the Rigol's FFT of its Calibrator signal when in "Normal" acquisition mode are spurious.

In "Normal" acquisition at 5Msps when you are only set to 120Ksps sample rate it means you are throwing away 97.6 percent of the sample data so it's producing peaks where none exists.

You really need to set your scope to high-res for FFTs.
Well, that's clear enough.... now.  Is that "feature" mentioned in the User's Manual somewhere?  "Thrown away sample data" causing peaks to appear where none exists.... That's interesting. I would have expected that "thrown away data" would cause peaks that _should appear_, to be missing or attenuated, not the other way around. Would you call this an aliasing problem.... which isn't affected by the "anti-aliasing" setting at all.....  ?
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #164 on: June 10, 2015, 04:09:55 pm »
In "Normal" acquisition at 5Msps when you are only set to 120Ksps sample rate it means you are throwing away 97.6 percent of the sample data so it's producing peaks where none exists.
You really need to set your scope to high-res for FFTs.
Well, that's clear enough.... now.  Is that "feature" mentioned in the User's Manual somewhere?

Yes:

Quote
Tips
- You can use HORIZONTAL SCALE to adjust the center frequency
and horizontal scale at the same time.
- Signals with DC components or deviation would cause error or deviation of
the FFT waveform components. To reduce the DC components, set the
“Channel Coupling” to “AC”.
- To reduce the random noise and aliasing frequency components of
repetitive or single pulse, set the “Acquisition Mode” of the oscilloscope
to “Average”.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 04:12:41 pm by ebastler »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #165 on: June 10, 2015, 04:11:27 pm »
Can reproduce the freeze bug on .04.02 SP4 board 0.1.1 with all options (except 500microvolt/d) enabled. The mem setting is saved with 1 channel on, but reverts to auto if the scope is powered off with 4 channels enabled and set to power on last.

Edit: Just upgraded to .04.03, and somewhat the same problem. Inputting a 1MHz sine wave instantly locks up the scope after switching the persistence. But inputting a 1KHz sine wave does not. I can change the persistence to all the different settings. I can also increase the frequency to 1MHz again and change the persistence around. But if I exit the zoom mode and enter it again at 1MHz it locks up. Basically, if the scope does not initially crash after switching the persistence mode in zoom mode, I can change the frequency to whatever I want, 5Hz and 25MHz for example, and also change the persistence to whatever I want. Tried to enter at 500KHz and it locked up, seems to be a specific frequency and up that it locks up.

Thanks for your report and testing. As I and others have documented, in our scopes the bug can occur with the 1kHz Calibrator signal, or even with no signal applied at all, as long as the horizontal timebase is set to some fast value. See the last video I posted above, where I demonstrate the bug with no signal applied and with no Options unlocked ("unhacked"), stock 50 MHz bandwidth. I have been using 1 us/div in the main horizontal timebase setting for my documentation and testing purposes, but using slower settings can also produce slowdowns and freezes sometimes as well.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #166 on: June 10, 2015, 04:32:34 pm »
In "Normal" acquisition at 5Msps when you are only set to 120Ksps sample rate it means you are throwing away 97.6 percent of the sample data so it's producing peaks where none exists.
You really need to set your scope to high-res for FFTs.
Well, that's clear enough.... now.  Is that "feature" mentioned in the User's Manual somewhere?

Yes:

Quote
Tips
? You can use HORIZONTAL SCALE to adjust the center frequency
and horizontal scale at the same time.
? Signals with DC components or deviation would cause error or deviation of
the FFT waveform components. To reduce the DC components, set the
“Channel Coupling” to “AC”.
? To reduce the random noise and aliasing frequency components of
repetitive or single pulse, set the “Acquisition Mode” of the oscilloscope
to “Average”.

Thank you. This indeed does produce a better FFT display, of the Calibrator signal anyway.

The shot below is using "Average" acquisition mode, 16 averages, Auto memory depth,  AC coupled input with BW limit on, Blackman window for the FFT.   And "persistence time" set to "min" of course.  I hope Anand is reading here! 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 04:34:15 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #167 on: June 10, 2015, 05:12:14 pm »
As you've figured out, FFTs are not trivial to get right.  I always take a scope FFT, where you typically don't have fine control over the data and processing, with a grain of salt.  IMHO, it's more useful when you're trying to find some noise injected from somewhere... "Oh, there's a spike around 25kHz...I know what that is!"
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #168 on: June 10, 2015, 05:14:51 pm »
Well, that's clear enough.... now.  Is that "feature" mentioned in the User's Manual somewhere?  "Thrown away sample data" causing peaks to appear where none exists.... That's interesting. I would have expected that "thrown away data" would cause peaks that _should appear_, to be missing or attenuated, not the other way around. Would you call this an aliasing problem.... which isn't affected by the "anti-aliasing" setting at all.....  ?

Well the manual or any other manual for other scopes doesn't go too much into detail. but press the help button and see what it tells you for Hi-res and Normal.

But this is true for all scopes, you should watch those videos by w2aew that I embedded earlier, and by watch I mean actually watch it, not just play it on the background while catching up with the forum.

 

Offline W7NGA

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #169 on: June 10, 2015, 05:38:02 pm »
This caught me at a bad time since I am leaving for S.E. Asia for 7 weeks and just put most of the test equipment into storage.
I worked for Tektronix and have a dozen (or more) scopes here at the lab. I have a Tektronix TDS2014B, a terrible scope when
compared to the Rigol, and as I recall it cost 4x what the DS1054Z cost but it is similar in performance.

I will retrieve the TDS2014B later in the day and run through these same tests. I am interested in a FFT comparison between it and the Rigol.

Will report back later ...

dan W7NGA
 

Offline W7NGA

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #170 on: June 11, 2015, 02:18:38 pm »
I retrieved my Tektronix TDS 2014B (100 Mhz, 1 Gs/s) out of storage and ran the FFT tests on the Rigol 1 khz calibrator.
After using this thing for a few minutes, and remembering what I paid for it, I have to tell you that the Rigol DS1054Z is the best hobbyist bargain ever!

What a jewel!

As shown in the photo, even with Auto memory management, there is no getting around the undersampling artifacts.
Using my 'real' spectrum analyzer and narrowing the RBW I can see even-ordered harmonics but they are greater than -50dB down from the fundamental.

The TDS 2014B cleans up as the sampling rate is increased, as does the Rigol.

Enjoy your DS1054Z .. as I said, I am thrilled and will be purchasing a few more for the classes I teach.

Off to Vietnam ... cheers

dan W7NGA
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 02:24:06 pm by W7NGA »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #171 on: June 11, 2015, 04:28:28 pm »
Thanks for doing that comparison. Yes, I agree that the DS1054Z is a great bargain, an excellent scope for beginners like me.

Hopefully you will make up a handout to notify your students about the conditions for lock-up and what settings are "poison" on your new ones, and how to recover from a locked-on-startup condition. Or maybe you can select new ones that don't lock up, from your vendor's stock. After all, you have slightly less than a 50 percent chance of getting scopes that don't show this bug. Or maybe Rigol will have issued another firmware update that fixes this bug by the time you return to your classes.

Just curious ... is it possible to get the Tek TDS 2014B to start up "frozen" and unresponsive to all controls, after being shut down in a running, fully operational state? 
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #172 on: June 12, 2015, 05:45:42 am »
Thanks for doing that comparison. Yes, I agree that the DS1054Z is a great bargain, an excellent scope for beginners like me.

Hopefully you will make up a handout to notify your students about the conditions for lock-up and what settings are "poison" on your new ones, and how to recover from a locked-on-startup condition. Or maybe you can select new ones that don't lock up, from your vendor's stock. After all, you have slightly less than a 50 percent chance of getting scopes that don't show this bug. Or maybe Rigol will have issued another firmware update that fixes this bug by the time you return to your classes.

Just curious ... is it possible to get the Tek TDS 2014B to start up "frozen" and unresponsive to all controls, after being shut down in a running, fully operational state?

Maybe you should consider selling your DS1054Z -- or start using it, to work on some nice, cool projects?
Spending all your electronics hobby time searching for flies in the ointment can't be good for you... ::)
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #173 on: June 12, 2015, 10:10:33 pm »
Thanks for doing that comparison. Yes, I agree that the DS1054Z is a great bargain, an excellent scope for beginners like me.

Hopefully you will make up a handout to notify your students about the conditions for lock-up and what settings are "poison" on your new ones, and how to recover from a locked-on-startup condition. Or maybe you can select new ones that don't lock up, from your vendor's stock. After all, you have slightly less than a 50 percent chance of getting scopes that don't show this bug. Or maybe Rigol will have issued another firmware update that fixes this bug by the time you return to your classes.

Just curious ... is it possible to get the Tek TDS 2014B to start up "frozen" and unresponsive to all controls, after being shut down in a running, fully operational state?

Maybe you should consider selling your DS1054Z -- or start using it, to work on some nice, cool projects?
Spending all your electronics hobby time searching for flies in the ointment can't be good for you... ::)
I use it daily, several hours every day or more. How do you think I found the bug in the first place?  I also apparently use mine for more complex setups and in more ways than ....well... anyone else I've seen reporting on the scope.  I've made several videos showing how to use some of the advanced features of the scope. At the moment I have _eleven_ different experimental setups stored in the scope for working on different projects. Do you think that scopeshots like the one below are somehow deliberately set up to show some severe bug in the instrument? No, this shot is from an actual circuit that I am developing and testing, and when the scope locked up on me, and even started up "locked"... that was from a legitimate combination of settings encountered while trying to get data on an actual circuit.

So I reject your comment and its implied accusation. I am a scope _user_ and I expect a scope--- even a low-end, toy DSO--- to work properly; that is, as claimed by the manufacturer. When it doesn't, I'll make my findings known to other users in an effort to track down the reasons and get them fixed. You may not be aware that this is the second DS1054Z unit that I've had in my possession; the first one turned out to have a bad glitch in the CH4 hardware and so I returned it for replacement. Some people laughed at me then because _they_ never use all four channels, so why should I care if a channel is unusable on such a cheap scope? When I started noticing this present scope freezing up _while testing actual circuits_ on my bench, I started wondering if perhaps I had _another_ bad piece of hardware, so I started this thread. And you, and Rigol, and the other users of this scope, now know, because of MY efforts, that the bug exists in more than 50 percent of scopes tested, and how to avoid it. If you want to "shoot the messenger" or blame me in some way for talking about this severe bug which indicates something wrong at Rigol's production facility... that's fine with me. It won't make the bug go away though.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 10:13:09 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline tom66

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #174 on: June 13, 2015, 12:10:23 am »
I am not able to replicate running 00.02.03.SP5. Old version, but DS1074Z, one of the first shipped. have not considered whether I should install latest firmware as current version seems OK (only a spelling error in default USB name and the last sample on the edge of a scrolling screen is wrong)
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #175 on: June 13, 2015, 08:47:48 am »
So I reject your comment and its implied accusation.

Alright; my apologies if I came across as reproachful. I appreciate your efforts in finding and assessing this bug. Just felt that your sarcastic comments regarding the results of the Tek/Rigol comparison by W7NGA were overshooting a bit.
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #176 on: June 13, 2015, 11:36:57 am »
@alsetalokin4017
It was a nice bug discovery.

But now i tend to agree with ebastler , that absolutely no one on EEVblog could be unaware about this bug anymore.

Rigol has ack'ed the bug (thank you) , and there is "no more soup, to cook on this fish"

No reason to keep this thread alive anymore

/Bingo
 

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #177 on: June 22, 2015, 03:26:30 pm »
Rigol has ack'ed the bug (thank you) , and there is "no more soup, to cook on this fish"

I must have missed that... was it in this thread?  What did they say?
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #178 on: June 22, 2015, 04:16:43 pm »
Rigol has ack'ed the bug (thank you) , and there is "no more soup, to cook on this fish"

I must have missed that... was it in this thread?  What did they say?
I filed a report through the Rigol website, including a full description, links to this blog thread and to my videos describing the problem,
and on June 8th I received this response by email:

Quote
Hello,
My name is Jason Chonko and I am an Applications Engineer at Rigol Technologies USA. Thank you for writing in.
We are aware of the problems with the MSO and are investigating the issue further.
Can I get the following information from your instrument?
- Serial number?
- Purchase date and vendor?
- Shipping address and phone number?
I am going to write up a bug for your account. When it is fixed, you will be emailed the solution.
Sincerely,
Jason
I responded with the information he asked for and emphasized that the problem happens with the DS1054Z, not the MSO series as far as I know. I have heard nothing back since June 8th. It is June 22nd as I write this.
They have assigned "Case #:  00007818" to the issue.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline eyesociety

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #179 on: July 16, 2015, 05:24:44 pm »


Got my scope on the 15/05/2015.
I can also reproduce it on my  DS1054Z running 00:04:02:SP4, Board Version 0.1.1, using the instructions above.  :palm:  :palm:

I contacted my supplier and he said  your version of the firmware has been updated, and he said he would email me the latest version.
The new firmware version is 00.04.03.SP1.

I will let you know the result of the new update.
 
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #180 on: July 16, 2015, 07:42:11 pm »
Thanks for your report. Mine can still be made to freeze, even with 00.04.03.SP1.  It is a little harder to get it to start up already locked in the frozen state, because I _think_ that the SP1 firmware doesn't reset memory depth to "Auto" on boot up like the older version did. I think.
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Offline timofonic

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #181 on: July 16, 2015, 07:49:54 pm »
I agree... mostly. The end user should be informed "up front" though as to how to recover from a locked-up scope by using the "Alternate Factory Reset" technique, and should be warned that this condition is quite likely to occur when a simple, legitimate combination of user settings is input to the scope.

It's a shame that the Display>Persistence feature isn't implemented without causing problems though. Say you are looking for jitter and have some persistence time set. Then you want to look at an FFT of your signal.  On my scope the FFT comes to a dead halt (although the scope isn't frozen) if any persistence time is set other than "min".

Also, look at the FFT display itself, even when it is running properly. How is one to know whether one is getting a proper computation of the FFT for a complex signal? The result you get depends on Acquire mode, Mem Depth and Trigger level, as Anand has discovered.

Yes, the scope is definitely still the best "bang for bucks" in terms of price and capability. It also seems to have the most "bugs per bang"! I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying the scope, but I do think that the various bugs, and how to avoid or recover from them, should be "officially" made clear to the owners, and of course should be fixed by Rigol as soon as possible.

Too late! I'm saving money to get my first scope. I'm too OCD to not be discouraged, I dislike software bugs as much as cockroaches!
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #182 on: July 17, 2015, 10:42:56 am »
Well, that's your choice of course. I own a few analog scopes myself, and also an old Link pc-based DSO, but I find myself using my Rigol DS1054Z every day and hardly ever fire up the analog scopes now, and haven't used the Link at all since I bought the Rigol.
In spite of the bugs, it's still a very useful piece of kit, looks and feels nice and certainly adds a lot of capability to my little "laboratory". I would still recommend this scope as a great buy for a first-time scope buyer who needs a DSO. (Even though I still think it's better to learn the basics of scoposcopy on a basic analog scope.)
I have confidence that Rigol will fix the bugs in firmware as time goes by; meanwhile, I know that most of the bugs I've found and heard about won't affect most users at the basic level.
If you are doing work that often really involves complicated setups that absolutely _must_ yield quantitatively correct results, then you'll have to save up for quite a while in order to be able to afford an advanced Keysight or LeCroy or Tektronix or similar model DSO. Under the principle that (almost) any scope is better than no scope at all... I'd still recommend the DS1054Z as a "first" DSO to the hobbyist on a modest budget. The chances of a hobbyist project being "shut down" by encountering a bug in the Rigol are probably pretty low.

TLDR: I'm pretty happy with my DS1054Z in spite of the bugs.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline netdudeuk

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #183 on: July 17, 2015, 10:54:54 am »
In "Normal" acquisition at 5Msps when you are only set to 120Ksps sample rate it means you are throwing away 97.6 percent of the sample data so it's producing peaks where none exists.
You really need to set your scope to high-res for FFTs.
Well, that's clear enough.... now.  Is that "feature" mentioned in the User's Manual somewhere?

Yes:

Quote
Tips
? You can use HORIZONTAL SCALE to adjust the center frequency
and horizontal scale at the same time.
? Signals with DC components or deviation would cause error or deviation of
the FFT waveform components. To reduce the DC components, set the
“Channel Coupling” to “AC”.
? To reduce the random noise and aliasing frequency components of
repetitive or single pulse, set the “Acquisition Mode” of the oscilloscope
to “Average”.

Thank you. This indeed does produce a better FFT display, of the Calibrator signal anyway.

The shot below is using "Average" acquisition mode, 16 averages, Auto memory depth,  AC coupled input with BW limit on, Blackman window for the FFT.   And "persistence time" set to "min" of course.  I hope Anand is reading here!

My FFT is all down to the lower right hand side.  What's needed to bring it across to the left ?

Thanks
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #184 on: July 18, 2015, 05:11:57 pm »
Change the Center Frequency and the Hz/Div settings.

If you are using the Mode "Trace" then set your horizontal timebase to display a lot of cycles in the upper window.

See the examples below, looking at an approx. 4MHz sine wave. First is the "default" display when you start up the FFT, next is the display after "tweaking" the settings. Note that I have the Center Frequency set to twice the frequency of the sine wave.

Of course it all depends on what you are looking for in your FFT of an input signal, too.
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Offline netdudeuk

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #185 on: July 24, 2015, 09:23:18 pm »
Thanks. Just what I was looking for.  Appreciate the trouble you went to to get the screenshots, etc.
 

Offline Penguin36

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #186 on: August 08, 2015, 12:03:33 pm »
Hi,
I just want to add my results to the freeze bug thread. Both scopes are not hacked and in trial state.

DS1054Z:   
HW 0.1.1, SW 00.04.03.SP1 -> freeze confirmed


DS1074Z-S:
HW 4.1.1, SW 00.04.03.SP1 -> no freeze!

And, saving screenshots to USB is much faster on the DS1074Z-S. Don't know if DS1074Z-S is allways HW 4.1.1?!

So, I keep the 1074 :-)

 

Offline Penguin36

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #187 on: August 19, 2015, 02:20:15 pm »
I exchanged the 1074 again with a 1054, because the SG in 1074 is not that good.

So, got my 2nd 1054z today, HW 0.1.1, same SW as before -> NO freeze!

So, there must be a problem in some scopes, 50% work o.k., 50% don't.

 

Offline Shock

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #188 on: August 19, 2015, 07:26:22 pm »
Can't reproduce the freeze up bug.

I'm running the defaults on start up and no probes.
Set Persis. Time to 100ms
Enter horizontal zoom mode
Still responsive to button presses.

Software Version
00.04.03
Board Version
0.1.1
Serial Number
DSA1ZA17140XXXX

For reference here is alsetalokin4017's
Serial Number
DAS1ZA17030XXXX

I won't bother reading this whole thread but that jump in serial numbers looks like a hardware revision to me or at least somethings changed for Rigol to jump in serial numbers.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 07:29:34 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM     >>> Fluke 51/52 Thermometer Parts Required <<<
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline Penguin36

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #189 on: August 19, 2015, 07:33:10 pm »
Can't reproduce the freeze up bug.

I'm running the defaults on start up and no probes.
Set Persis. Time to 100ms
Enter horizontal zoom mode
Still responsive to button presses.

Software Version
00.04.03
Board Version
0.1.1
Serial Number
DSA1ZA17140XXXX

For reference here is alsetalokin4017's
Serial Number
DAS1ZA17030XXXX

I won't bother reading this whole thread but that jump in serial numbers looks like a hardware revision to me or at least somethings changed for Rigol to jump in serial numbers.

Mine is ...17161XXXX
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #190 on: August 19, 2015, 07:48:36 pm »
My DS1054Z is DS1ZA17100XXXX received in UK June this year and does 'freeze'.  Already logged on 'freeze' poll.

 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #191 on: August 19, 2015, 09:12:33 pm »
Can't reproduce the freeze up bug.

I'm running the defaults on start up and no probes.
Set Persis. Time to 100ms
Enter horizontal zoom mode
Still responsive to button presses.

Software Version
00.04.03
Board Version
0.1.1

Serial Number
DSA1ZA17140XXXX

For reference here is alsetalokin4017's
Serial Number
DAS1ZA17030XXXX

I won't bother reading this whole thread but that jump in serial numbers looks like a hardware revision to me or at least somethings changed for Rigol to jump in serial numbers.
SN's do not normally include HW versions, only model series and build date.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Shock

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #192 on: August 20, 2015, 12:35:57 am »
SN's do not normally include HW versions, only model series and build date.

You talking about serial numbers in this specific case or serial numbers generally? As I'm meaning in this specific case there seems to be a pattern.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM     >>> Fluke 51/52 Thermometer Parts Required <<<
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #193 on: August 20, 2015, 01:09:20 am »
SN's do not normally include HW versions, only model series and build date.

You talking about serial numbers in this specific case or serial numbers generally? As I'm meaning in this specific case there seems to be a pattern.
Generally.

You'll note all HW versions are 0.1.1.

Production runs, dates etc are normally encrypted in the SN along the the actual unit # produced.
IIRC the jitter issue wasn't related to any HW version and FW  :-/O s made it go away.
Maybe this issue will be the same.  :-//
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #194 on: August 20, 2015, 02:25:42 am »
Can't reproduce the freeze up bug.

I'm running the defaults on start up and no probes.
Set Persis. Time to 100ms
Enter horizontal zoom mode
Still responsive to button presses.

Software Version
00.04.03
Board Version
0.1.1
Serial Number
DSA1ZA17140XXXX

For reference here is alsetalokin4017's
Serial Number
DAS1ZA17030XXXX

I won't bother reading this whole thread but that jump in serial numbers looks like a hardware revision to me or at least somethings changed for Rigol to jump in serial numbers.

Memory Depth set to "Auto" ? This appears to be one of the conditions for freezing.

What do you get in the file when you ask the scope to save a "Param" file?
Storage>Storage>Param and Save to USB stick
The file should contain more information about the software, firmware and board numbers.
like:
Code: [Select]
Model:DS1xxxZ
SN:DS1ZA170xxxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #195 on: August 20, 2015, 02:59:06 am »
What do you get in the file when you ask the scope to save a "Param" file?
Storage>Storage>Param and Save to USB stick
The file should contain more information about the software, firmware and board numbers.
What about Power cycles # ?
Or is this something Rigol doesn't see as important info?  :-//
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Penguin36

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #196 on: August 20, 2015, 06:00:03 am »
Memory Depth set to "Auto" ? This appears to be one of the conditions for freezing.

What do you get in the file when you ask the scope to save a "Param" file?
Storage>Storage>Param and Save to USB stick
The file should contain more information about the software, firmware and board numbers.
like:
Code: [Select]
Model:DS1xxxZ
SN:DS1ZA170xxxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1

Param from my DS1054Z which does NOT freeze.

Model:DS1xxxZ
SN:DS1ZA1716xxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1


So, only the BOOT Ver is different, and SN of course.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #197 on: August 20, 2015, 06:03:50 am »

What about Power cycles # ?
Or is this something Rigol doesn't see as important info?  :-//

If there's a way to get the number of power cycles from the scope, I haven't found it yet.

Yes, you would think that would be an important bit of information. I certainly would like
to be able to see it.

It's also interesting, don't you think, that what we have been calling "firmware" is actually called "software" in the scope, and the real "firmware" is something different, and doesn't get updated, as far as I can tell, when a "firmware update" is installed by the .gel file from a USB stick.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #198 on: August 20, 2015, 06:07:57 am »


Param from my DS1054Z which does NOT freeze.

Model:DS1xxxZ
SN:DS1ZA1716xxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1


So, only the BOOT Ver is different, and SN of course.

Now that is very interesting indeed. I wonder if that is the case for all scopes that have the bug.

I haven't heard anything from Rigol since June 8 when they first replied to me when I notified them about this problem.

I also wonder if it is possible to upgrade these other bits and pieces. How can I install a new "BOOT Ver" in my scope? Why does Rigol call the thing we _can_ upgrade, "Software" on the scope, but "firmware" on their support pages?
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #199 on: August 20, 2015, 07:00:40 am »

You can apparently read out the operation time with a SCPI command.

:SYST:INFO? BTIME

Result: "May 26 2015 08:38:06 | 0 0:4 / 9 0:49"

Firmware build time: "May 26 2015 08:38:06"
Current operating time 'day hour:minute': "0 0:4"
Total operating time 'day hour:minute': "9 0:49"

Is just a guess.

Peter

Yes, I think that's right. But it still doesn't give the number of power cycles. The total "on" time is nice to know though, and is probably just as important as the number of power cycles.

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Penguin36

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #200 on: August 20, 2015, 07:22:05 am »

You can apparently read out the operation time with a SCPI command.

:SYST:INFO? BTIME

Result: "May 26 2015 08:38:06 | 0 0:4 / 9 0:49"

Firmware build time: "May 26 2015 08:38:06"
Current operating time 'day hour:minute': "0 0:4"
Total operating time 'day hour:minute': "9 0:49"

Is just a guess.

Peter

Yes, I think that's right. But it still doesn't give the number of power cycles. The total "on" time is nice to know though, and is probably just as important as the number of power cycles.

For my information please, why is the number of power cycles important?  :-//
 

Offline Shock

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #201 on: August 20, 2015, 07:24:38 am »
Memory Depth set to "Auto" ? This appears to be one of the conditions for freezing.
What do you get in the file when you ask the scope to save a "Param" file?
Storage>Storage>Param and Save to USB stick
The file should contain more information about the software, firmware and board numbers.
Model:DS1xxxZ
SN:DS1ZA170xxxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1

Memory Depth is set to "Auto" by default on bootup on mine. I did also toggle it at least once while testing and could not reproduce it. I suggest setting your scope to full defaults and trying, as well as doing this next time you complete a firmware update.

Model:DS1xxxZ
SN:DS1ZA17140xxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03

Boot code is different, does it get updated at all by a firmware update?
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM     >>> Fluke 51/52 Thermometer Parts Required <<<
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline Shock

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #202 on: August 20, 2015, 07:34:58 am »
For my information please, why is the number of power cycles important?  :-//

Not so important in this case aside from determining how much use it's had or the potential for data corruption, but it's a metric in failure analysis.

If you sold an oscilloscope that had a days use on it and a thousand boots it would look very suspicious. Manufacturers love to know this as users often say "I used it now and again now it's broken (sad face)" when they actually drove it into the ground 10hrs a day every day for 5 years straight.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM     >>> Fluke 51/52 Thermometer Parts Required <<<
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #203 on: August 20, 2015, 08:21:45 am »
My DS1054Z is DS1ZA17100XXXX received in UK June this year and does 'freeze'.  Already logged on 'freeze' poll.

Update:  My boot version is also 0.0.1.2

 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #204 on: August 20, 2015, 08:22:22 am »
For my information please, why is the number of power cycles important?  :-//

Not so important in this case aside from determining how much use it's had or the potential for data corruption, but it's a metric in failure analysis.

If you sold an oscilloscope that had a days use on it and a thousand boots it would look very suspicious. Manufacturers love to know this as users often say "I used it now and again now it's broken (sad face)" when they actually drove it into the ground 10hrs a day every day for 5 years straight.
Exactly.

But don't forget these DSO's like any equipment WILL be superseded in time and then potential purchasers will be looking for the DSO that has a low boot count # or low operating hours.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Penguin36

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #205 on: August 20, 2015, 08:26:09 am »
Thank you for the answers. I understand that the total runtime is important, but not the number of boots.
When I buy a car, I want to know the total km or miles, but not how many times the car has been started.

 

Offline Shock

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #206 on: August 20, 2015, 08:48:07 am »
Thank you for the answers. I understand that the total runtime is important, but not the number of boots.
When I buy a car, I want to know the total km or miles, but not how many times the car has been started.

I understand your point, but it's still important information despite your analogy, the hobbyist or the "average car buyer" might not care, at least until their new oscilloscope/car engine freezes.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM     >>> Fluke 51/52 Thermometer Parts Required <<<
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline Penguin36

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #207 on: August 20, 2015, 08:52:17 am »
Thank you for the answers. I understand that the total runtime is important, but not the number of boots.
When I buy a car, I want to know the total km or miles, but not how many times the car has been started.

I understand your point, but it's still important information despite your analogy, the hobbyist or the "average car buyer" might not care, at least until their new oscilloscope/car engine freezes.

Got that  ;)
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #208 on: August 20, 2015, 09:09:58 am »
Actually... the car analogy is a good one, because most of the wear on an internal combustion engine occurs within a few minutes of startup, when oil is not fully distributed and parts are undergoing thermal expansion. A car that has 50 thousand miles on the engine, mostly long-duration highway trips at constant RPM, will have much less internal wear than the same model, with 50 thousand miles of short trips to the corner store and back.

Something similar happens with electronic gear as well. If a scope has a combination of on-time and startup cycles that indicates it was turned on at 9 am and turned off at 5 pm every day for a year, that scope is probably less stressed than one with the same total time but 10x the number of start cycles, like it was turned on every half-hour during its year of usage. Every time you turn on a piece of electronic gear, it undergoes stresses both thermal and electrical that aren't experienced during constant running. This is especially true of vacuum-tube equipment, and also equipment with moving parts like hard disk drives.

Even Rigol specifies that their scopes should be on for at least half an hour before running the self-cal routine, and most anybody who uses scopes and other test equipment knows that allowing a half-hour warmup, even for digital equipment, is good practice before trying to  make precise quantitative measurements. If I were buying used test equipment, I'd much rather have high time and low start cycles, than the other way around. Within reason of course.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #209 on: August 20, 2015, 09:20:04 am »
Memory Depth set to "Auto" ? This appears to be one of the conditions for freezing.
What do you get in the file when you ask the scope to save a "Param" file?
Storage>Storage>Param and Save to USB stick
The file should contain more information about the software, firmware and board numbers.
Model:DS1xxxZ
SN:DS1ZA170xxxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1

Memory Depth is set to "Auto" by default on bootup on mine. I did also toggle it at least once while testing and could not reproduce it. I suggest setting your scope to full defaults and trying, as well as doing this next time you complete a firmware update.

Model:DS1xxxZ
SN:DS1ZA17140xxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03

Boot code is different, does it get updated at all by a firmware update?

I think I've done just about every combination of settings possible while researching and documenting this bug and others. I even think I've got a video up showing the bug, starting from "full defaults" as you say and only changing two things: language to English and Persistence to 100 ms, and insuring that "Auto" is set in Mem Depth. And I've documented it with two different firmware versions on my scope. Yes, I tried it immediately after updating to 00.04.03.SP1.

As far as I am aware the only thing that gets updated when the user does a "firmware" update with a .gel file is what the scope calls "SoftWare". The other values (board, "Firmware", BOOT, and CPLD) do not change, in any case that I have seen. The Model Number does change when the scope is unlocked, and changes back when the unlocking is removed using the SCPI uninstall command.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Shock

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #210 on: August 20, 2015, 11:49:51 am »
Yeah so in case I didn't stress, on your next update restore everything to defaults and power cycle before flashing. That is likely what they do in QA testing, my current money is on boot code version there is definitely something unique in that serial though, possibly geography and batch.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM     >>> Fluke 51/52 Thermometer Parts Required <<<
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline Shock

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #211 on: August 20, 2015, 04:35:18 pm »
Did you guys with Boot Ver:0.0.1.2 get your oscilloscopes with a version less than 00.04.00.00.00?

*** Warning be careful not to accidentally update trying this ***
If you have Boot Ver:0.0.1.2 as a test you could try grabbing
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z
Then extract the DS1000ZUpdate.GEL from the Sparrow(Boot)update_00.04.00.00.00 folder
Copy it on a formatted FAT32 USB key and then insert into the already booted oscilloscope (see below image).
*** Cancel it ***

I suspect it pulls the version number from just the .GEL file so it thinks you're already past 00.04.00.00.00 which might be the actual issue. I have no idea what the process is for updating the Boot code or downgrading in general. I wonder if the instructions ever covered it in the past.

If that doesn't work perhaps someone who has CCS Code Composer Studio could extract the hex files out of the Boot code .GEL file (no idea if possible) and determine the version from there?

Q1: Does anyone know what the bootloader keypress on boot is?
Q2: Is there any firmware update since 00.04.00.00.00 that also has Boot code?
Version 00.04.03.01.05 Date 2015-06-16
Version 00.04.03.00.01 Date 2015-05-05
Version 00.04.02.04.07 Date 2014-12-31
Version 00.04.02.03.00 Date 2014-10-21
Version 00.04.01.02.00 Date 2014-07-28
Version 00.04.00.00.00 Date ?
Version 00.02.03.05.00 Date ?

I'm running Boot Ver:0.0.1.3 so this is what I get when I insert 0.04.00.00.00 Boot code:
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 06:36:11 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM     >>> Fluke 51/52 Thermometer Parts Required <<<
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #212 on: August 21, 2015, 02:07:48 am »
Well, when I do that I get exactly the same screen.

No, my scope was delivered with 00.04.02 "firmware" (what the scope calls "SoftWare"), and I have since updated it several times.

What is this supposed to prove?
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Offline Shock

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #213 on: August 21, 2015, 02:44:15 am »
Well, when I do that I get exactly the same screen.
No, my scope was delivered with 00.04.02 "firmware" (what the scope calls "SoftWare"), and I have since updated it several times.
What is this supposed to prove?

Was trying to see if the oscilloscope recognized 00.04.00.00.00 Boot code .GEL file as an upgrade or a downgrade on a BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2 oscilloscope. My suspicion is it does not pull the version number from the Hex file so could actually be BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3 for all we know.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM     >>> Fluke 51/52 Thermometer Parts Required <<<
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline rezasurmar

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #214 on: October 22, 2015, 07:47:27 am »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #215 on: October 22, 2015, 02:18:17 pm »
Has anyone tested firmware 00.04.03.01.05 ?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ph4ff16d9s85tkt/AAA3UeuWQsdGbA_OfDkqiBlVa?dl=0

Yes, many people. This is the "firmware" that the Scope reports as "00.04.03.SP1" on the System Information screen. This SoftWare version may not always reset Mem Depth to "Auto" when the scope starts up, so it may be harder to get the scope to start up frozen, but it is still possible to get the scope to freeze if the conditions are met while the scope is up and running.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #216 on: October 27, 2015, 07:41:15 pm »
I check the new firmware.  :palm:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg786999/#msg786999

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg787154/#msg787154

Did a quick check.

This firmware is incredible crap !

Freeze bug does'nt fixed
Math issue does'nt fixed
50µs timebase / trigger issue seems to be fixed... Iam not sure, maybe someone else can check it too.

BUT

I feel the whole scope is much slower.
The probe devider setting is a procedure like hell now. Pain in the ass. Useless  < My knob is broken.
If I turn on all 4 channels and the brightness changes with the memory settings. The channels are flickering now.

I play a little with this firmware and change back to SP1 that's for sure.
/Edited
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 08:13:58 pm by Fennec »
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #217 on: October 27, 2015, 07:53:21 pm »
Glad I read around, I was about to buy a 1054Z. It seems to be a complete firmware fuckup, though. Random freezes are not a sign of good code quality, and I don't know what they're doing with these firmware releases considering they've yet to fix the bugs. Supposedly the DS2k series are much better, which is a bit surprising considering they're probably both done by the same poor programmers.

Rigol - the freeze bug should be first priority. How is it you're unable to fix an obvious bug like this? Someone in your firmware team doesn't know how to manage memory. One of these days it's going to trample on some important memory, like its own whilst performing an upgrade...
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Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #218 on: October 27, 2015, 08:21:13 pm »
Aw, not really. This freeze bug is not really a problem. If you know it, try to not use the 100 persist time.
But u are right, few of this issues are much older than 6 month and Rigol didnt fix them ?? Idk why.

I bet u will find some issues on the DS2k too. There are much much more ds1054Z on the marked so there are also more user to find the bugs.

This scope is fine for the money, idk why I should buy a DS2k.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #219 on: October 27, 2015, 08:30:25 pm »
It's fine for the money, if it were a crap brand like Siglent or Hantek or Owon or something - you expect terrible firmware from them, they've perfected the art of engineering half decent hardware and then having a herd of starving interns in a cage cobble together the firmware while fighting for scraps of bread... Rigol so far, since the 1052E, has had a reputation for putting extra effort into general firmware and UX quality - a reputation they seem to have upheld in the DS2k series, but one it seems they've abused a bit in the DS1kZ. It looks shiny, but it looks like they may have polished a turd.

That said, I like Rigol and will probably go on with my purchase of a DS2k. But come on, guys, fix your shit!
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Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #220 on: October 28, 2015, 10:16:16 am »
Glad I read around, I was about to buy a 1054Z. It seems to be a complete firmware fuckup, though. Random freezes are not a sign of good code quality
The freezing isn't random, it's a particular set of circumstances.

You probably won't see it in normal use (I never have).

I wouldn't stop buying one because of that.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #221 on: October 28, 2015, 03:54:50 pm »
Well, I discovered the freezebug in my "normal" use of the scope, but I realize my "normal" might not be the same "normal" as other people's.   :-DD

I agree that this shouldn't prevent someone from purchasing the scope, but at the present time I'm _not_ going to install this latest firmware "update" due to the problems others have reported, and especially since it doesn't seem to fix the two most important bugs: the Math horizontal error and the freeze bug.

These bugs only happen with some very specific settings though, so they should not interfere with "normal" use of the scope, especially if you are aware of the conditions. The Math horizontal error is a tricky one, though, and could bite you if you are relying on a correct Math result and inadvertently hit just the right combination of settings to produce it. Or if there is some other combo that we haven't found yet.

Come on RIGOL.... get your act together. This is a fine product for the price,  and needs properly functioning software to go with it.


The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #222 on: October 29, 2015, 01:36:51 pm »
I've just had email from Jason the Rigol USA tech who I notified about the FreezeBug back several months ago. He didn't know about the latest firmware SP2 !!   :palm:

But now he does.   



The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #223 on: October 30, 2015, 04:53:36 am »
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 07:11:58 am by Fennec »
 

Offline RigolUS_Apps

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #224 on: October 30, 2015, 08:29:47 pm »
Hello Everyone,

This is Jason Chonko and I am an Applications Engineer at Rigol Technologies USA.

We appreciate the passion that the members of EEVBlog have for their products and the community of Test and Measurement.

In order to effectively troubleshoot these types of problems, we encourage you to contact your local support offices if you are experiencing issues with any of our products.

We believe that the latest software release Version 00.04.03SP2 (00.04.03.02.03 in Engineering Mode) addresses the reported lock up and math bugs.

To check and display the full system information:
- In the trigger area on the front panel, quickly press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU
- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO
- Save a copy of the display by inserting a USB memory device (FAT32 format) into the front panel USB slot and press the Quick Print icon

The instrument should report that the Software Version is 00.04.03SP2 (identical to 00.04.03.02.03).

If it does not, please upgrade your instrument to the latest revision.

The latest release of firmware for the DS1000Z series can be requested from this registration page:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm?

If you continue to have difficulties with your oscilloscope, please contact your local Rigol Support Office with the full instrument identification information.

Rigol North American Technical Support:
http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/

Rigol European Technical Support:
http://www.rigol.eu/tech-support/

Rigol Support for other geographies:
EMD_support@rigol.com
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 03:29:34 pm by RigolUS_Apps »
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #225 on: October 30, 2015, 08:40:58 pm »
Glad I read around, I was about to buy a 1054Z. It seems to be a complete firmware fuckup, though. Random freezes are not a sign of good code quality
The freezing isn't random, it's a particular set of circumstances.

You probably won't see it in normal use (I never have).

I wouldn't stop buying one because of that.

Well, I just went and bought one. We'll see... :S
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Offline GonzoTheGreat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #226 on: October 30, 2015, 09:41:58 pm »
We believe that this firmware release addresses the reported lock up and math bugs.
@Alsetalokin4017

I tried this release and I don't have the feezebug.
How about you?
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #227 on: October 30, 2015, 09:43:32 pm »
Er...ahem.... OK..... has anyone tried that procedure described by Jason above, to show all that information on the screen?

I tried it before updating (00.04.03.SP1) and it didn't work, I just get the ordinary screen that only shows the usual stuff, not all the other version numbers. So I updated (SP2) and it _still_ doesn't work to show all that information.

I am running the self-cal routine now, which typically takes about 16-19 minutes on my scope, and I'll try again and also check on the Bugs.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #228 on: October 30, 2015, 09:44:31 pm »
We believe that this firmware release addresses the reported lock up and math bugs.
@Alsetalokin4017

I tried this release and I don't have the feezebug.
How about you?

I don't know yet, I just loaded the new firmware and I'm running the self-cal now.

Have you tried Jason's instructions for displaying that information screen? What did you get?

Were you able to get the freeze, before you upgraded?
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline ankerwolf

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #229 on: October 30, 2015, 10:04:49 pm »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #230 on: October 30, 2015, 10:35:48 pm »
OK, SP2 firmware loaded, confirmed on System Info screen as "Software Version 00.04.03.SP2", Horizontal measurements include the Pulse and Edge counters. Self-cal completed, scope restarted, set to Default  setup (Storage>Default) then:

Testing for Freeze Bug:

Turn on all 4 channels (no inputs necessary).
Timebase 1 us/div.
Go to Acquire menu, select Normal and Mem Depth Auto.
Go to Display, select 100 ms Persistence.
Push Horizontal Scale knob to enter Zoom mode.... and scope is FROZEN. Does not respond to any controls.    :'(

Restart by cycling power switch.  Scope comes up working normally with all 4 channels on and not in zoom mode.
Check Display Persistence = 100 ms, check Acquire Normal and Mem Depth Auto....
Push Horizontal Scale knob to enter Zoom mode... and scope is FROZEN.  Does not respond to any controls.    :palm:

Cycle Power switch... select Storage>Default. Load saved setup file for Trigger error --- using signal from scope's Probe Calibrator-- Trigger error appears to be GONE!
Woohoo!!
Load saved setup file for Trigger Zoom error.... Error appears to be GONE!  :-+

Load setup file for Math Error.... using 320kHz square wave from VCO..... math error STILL THERE, see screenshot below.   :-- :--

Executive summary:
Screen display of Software Parameters re Jason's instructions: NO.
Freeze Bug: STILL PRESENT.
Trigger Errors: Fixed.
Math Error: STILL PRESENT.

Grade: D- 



The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #231 on: October 30, 2015, 10:45:06 pm »
Oh come on. You have got to be kidding me.

 :palm:
 |O

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #232 on: October 30, 2015, 10:56:37 pm »
I would have thought this screen should be telling me that there are 0 "-Pluses" or rather zero negative pulses, since all the pulses are clearly positive.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #233 on: October 31, 2015, 01:26:08 am »
Executive summary:
Screen display of Software Parameters re Jason's instructions: NO.
Freeze Bug: STILL PRESENT.
Trigger Errors: Fixed.
Math Error: STILL PRESENT.

Absolute the same here.

/Edit

Er...ahem.... OK..... has anyone tried that procedure described by Jason above, to show all that information on the screen?

Yepp, nothing, same as before I reset the scope and got the standard info only.

Ah.... I finally got mine to do it (and with Mem Depth Auto, too!)

You have to push the buttons _fast_. If it doesn't work, push them even faster!

And it works.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 06:34:47 am by Fennec »
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #234 on: October 31, 2015, 02:31:50 am »
Why do we have to fill out this ridiculous form just to download a firmware update

Because NSA needs data..

@alsetalokin4017

/Edit

Its's the fu** Memory Depth again.
Set the mem depth to 24M ! Only this setting works.
  << My fault.

Ah.... I finally got mine to do it (and with Mem Depth Auto, too!)

You have to push the buttons _fast_. If it doesn't work, push them even faster!


That really suckz RIGOL !  But thank you for the info anyway.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 06:38:40 am by Fennec »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #235 on: October 31, 2015, 03:12:08 am »
@Fennec

Are you saying you were able to get that complete information display, by setting Mem Depth to 24M and then following the button-pushing directions?

I still can't get mine to do it. Do you have to hold buttons down or something? I've tried many times and I always get the ordinary screen that only shows Model, SN, Software Version and Board Version, not those other versions.

Meanwhile, I made another video:

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #236 on: October 31, 2015, 03:17:32 am »
Ah.... I finally got mine to do it (and with Mem Depth Auto, too!)

You have to push the buttons _fast_. If it doesn't work, push them even faster!



« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 03:32:20 am by alsetalokin4017 »
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #237 on: October 31, 2015, 03:28:58 am »
For me it works with set to 24M only.

>>You have to push the buttons _fast_.

Idk, I've tried it 78.ooo times, so I think Iam fast enough now :o) 

I make a Video tomorrow, same like yours.. so we can better compare it.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 03:31:57 am by Fennec »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #238 on: October 31, 2015, 03:36:27 am »
Heh... look at my screen up above. Mem depth 12k points (Auto) !

I had to push the buttons very fast.

Once it does it once, then I don't have to push the Trigger Menu buttons again. It displays the full information whenever I press Utility>System>System Info, without having to push the Trigger Menu buttons.

(Also, it doesn't matter if "hacked" or "unhacked".)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 03:38:21 am by alsetalokin4017 »
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #239 on: October 31, 2015, 06:44:00 am »
Heh... look at my screen up above. Mem depth 12k points (Auto) !

I had to push the buttons very fast.

Yepp, you are right. Maybe I wasn't fast enough for this high speed scope in < 24M depth n 4 channels on.  :box:

My problem now is, I can't downgrade the firmware back to SP1 easy with a memory stick. Yiik and I have no one free LAN Port.
The Scope is useless slow with the actual firmware, I don't like that. Now I know the bugs and deal with the older, but much faster version.
And if I think about, I don't really need PLUSES|O  :wtf:  Rigol  :palm:   :--
For me it is a sign, the Rigol programer has no fun or working on other projects and "fix" the firmware between Coffee n brunch. That's not professional. Crs sure it is a cheap Scope, but a cheap Scope has fully working anyway or if Im wrong ?!   :rant:

btw, the "hidden" reset, resets the power on counter too.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #240 on: October 31, 2015, 12:02:55 pm »
Grr...    SO, does anyone know how to roll back to the SP1 firmware (00.04.03.01.05) ? I've tried using the USB stick with the older GEL file and I just keep getting the "Update was failured" Chinglish error message.

 |O

Oh, I knew I shouldn't have installed this "update". O woe is me, woe is me.    :palm:
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Shock

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #241 on: October 31, 2015, 03:10:23 pm »
To display the full version information:
- In the trigger area on the front panel, press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU
- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO
- Save a copy of the display by inserting a USB memory device (FAT32 format) into the front panel USB slot and press the Quick Print icon

Jason, it appears there are two versions of boot firmware sitting on customers scopes (BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2 and BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3). My oscilloscope shipped with 0.0.1.3 boot and 00.04.03.00.01 software, I don't have the freeze issue.

Since firmware update 00.04.00.00.00 there doesn't seem to have been an update provided that contains a boot firmware update. I have not tried to unpack that specific version so I cannot see what boot firmware that update contains, however it seems that the software may use the software version in first line of the boot firmware .GEL file to see if it's a valid newer update.

If there have been no hardware refreshes, could it be possible that during manufacturing old boot firmware on oscilloscopes was present but failed being updated because the software had already been updated?

There has got to be some reason why people are on BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 03:12:15 pm by Shock »
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #242 on: October 31, 2015, 03:37:51 pm »
To display the full version information:
- In the trigger area on the front panel, press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU
- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO
- Save a copy of the display by inserting a USB memory device (FAT32 format) into the front panel USB slot and press the Quick Print icon

Jason, it appears there are two versions of boot firmware sitting on customers scopes (BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2 and BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3). My oscilloscope shipped with 0.0.1.3 boot and 00.04.03.00.01 software, I don't have the freeze issue.

Since firmware update 00.04.00.00.00 there doesn't seem to have been an update provided that contains a boot firmware update. I have not tried to unpack that specific version so I cannot see what boot firmware that update contains, however it seems that the software may use the software version in first line of the boot firmware .GEL file to see if it's a valid newer update.

If there have been no hardware refreshes, could it be possible that during manufacturing old boot firmware on oscilloscopes was present but failed being updated because the software had already been updated?

There has got to be some reason why people are on BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2.

Indeed... and I have some opinions as to what that reason is....    :rant:

1. It appears that Rigol knows that the BOOT Ver. 0.0.1.2. is a _defective product_ else they would not have made scopes with a later version.
2. It makes no sense whatsoever that a later firmware version cannot be rolled back and replaced with an older version, should the newer version turn out to be _defective_. 
3. I want my scope to work properly, and not be loaded with _known defective_ software. The "update" should update ALL known defective softwares in the scope.
4. FFS, RIGOL, hire someone who reads, writes and speaks ENGLISH (and someone for each of the other supported languages) to proofread, so that there are not such ridiculous errors as "PLUSES" or "Update was failured!" 
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Orange

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #243 on: October 31, 2015, 03:54:29 pm »
Have a look on this info screen, it has boot version 0.0.0.13  !!!    (It was one of the early scopes)
Still running firmware from beginning Jan 2015, and so far no real problems detected
I can't reproduce the freeze bug either.


To display the full version information:
- In the trigger area on the front panel, press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU         <<< press this sequence very quickly
- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO
 

Offline SLJ

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #244 on: October 31, 2015, 04:20:59 pm »
And I was just about to order a Rigol DS1074Z.   |O  Is this freeze bug on the newer ones also?
 
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Offline ankerwolf

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #245 on: October 31, 2015, 04:26:34 pm »
I have Boot Version 0.0.1.3 with last Update (SP2) and NO Freeze-Bug!
 

Offline SLJ

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #246 on: October 31, 2015, 04:36:55 pm »
At least I know what to look for now as soon as I get it so I can send it right back.  :-+

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #247 on: October 31, 2015, 05:04:17 pm »
The thing is that even with these firmware features, the DS1054Z remains by far the best value DSO there is. What would be an alternative DSO? If it makes you feel any better, here is my brand new Tek MDO3000 crashing, it's far easier to achieve!

If these anomalies are of key concern, then the answer is to go for an older unit with more mature firmware, but with fewer features. Or stick to CROs of course, I still keep a few around but rarely use them nowadays.

 

Offline Orange

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #248 on: October 31, 2015, 05:46:34 pm »
The thing is that even with these firmware features, the DS1054Z remains by far the best value DSO there is. What would be an alternative DSO? If it makes you feel any better, here is my brand new Tek MDO3000 crashing, it's far easier to achieve!

If these anomalies are of key concern, then the answer is to go for an older unit with more mature firmware, but with fewer features. Or stick to CROs of course, I still keep a few around but rarely use them nowadays.


Well, I would assume that Tek by now has resolved the crashing MDO3000 issues. It was perhaps 1 or 2 years ago, when I saw the MDO3000 on a trade show in Holland, and the guy demonstrating the scope was apologizing for the crashes. Within 10 seconds of demoing the thing was hanging. He replied to me very silent 'I just have loaded new firmware from Tektronix' (from the opposite booth) . Very embarrassing, and certainly not expected for such an expensive scope.   
 

Offline SLJ

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #249 on: October 31, 2015, 05:47:50 pm »
Here's my older unit. Still going strong. Firmware not required.  :-+ 


Now to find a buyer for the DS1102E. Should be able to get a few bucks for it.

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #250 on: October 31, 2015, 06:05:28 pm »

Well, I would assume that Tek by now has resolved the crashing MDO3000 issues. It was perhaps 1 or 2 years ago, when I saw the MDO3000 on a trade show in Holland, and the guy demonstrating the scope was apologizing for the crashes. Within 10 seconds of demoing the thing was hanging. He replied to me very silent 'I just have loaded new firmware from Tektronix' (from the opposite booth) . Very embarrassing, and certainly not expected for such an expensive scope.

Regrettably, no. This is the latest firmware from May this year, I did the video earlier today. If the software behind it is in a similar state of disorganisation to the UI, I could imagine that trying to identify and fix bugs in the MDO3000 is a thankless task. I still use it frequently because of a single redeeming feature: it's very convenient to swing around the bench, it has a standard TV style VESA mount so it's on a gas spring mount, takes up zero bench space as a result. Being able to liberate it to 500MHz (among other options) is nice too of course, I wouldn't have made the purchase otherwise.

Back to the Rigol, I was trying to see if I could detect additional sluggishness, and I would say subjectively yes, the new firmware does seem more sluggish particularly when adjusting channel offset.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #251 on: October 31, 2015, 06:34:31 pm »
At least I know what to look for now as soon as I get it so I can send it right back.  :-+

Why take the risk? Much safer to spend $1500 on a "professional" 'scope. (which will also have bugs).
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #252 on: October 31, 2015, 06:36:50 pm »
The thing is that even with these firmware features, the DS1054Z remains by far the best value DSO there is.

ANd none of the problems are showstoppers. They're very specific and you'll probably never see them in general use.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #253 on: October 31, 2015, 06:58:54 pm »
The thing is that even with these firmware features, the DS1054Z remains by far the best value DSO there is.

ANd none of the problems are showstoppers. They're very specific and you'll probably never see them in general use.

If I may add that while I agree these bugs are of course annoying, and Rigol could fix them if they chose to, I am sure that in some respects Rigol is a victim of its own success. The DS1000Z series probably outsells any other bench scope family by an order of magnitude at the moment, there are bound to be more people pressing more buttons, revealing more problems that will more likely be aired in public as a result.

As an aside, a bugbear of mine is the mentality of adding new, often largely superfluous or gratuitous features, while choosing to completely ignore existing bugs. Often it is not the software guys, it's the bean counters who have allocated development budget but not bug fix budget, bean counters don't see bug fixing as a revenue generator because no one can figure out how to put a value on it in a spreadsheet. The additional measurements Rigol have added are an example. The icing on the cake is that they introduced a new bug as a result, albeit minor  |O
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #254 on: October 31, 2015, 07:04:01 pm »
And I was just about to order a Rigol DS1074Z.   |O  Is this freeze bug on the newer ones also?
I got mine 4 months ago. It also has the 0.0.1.3 boot-board 0.1.1 and I've been running SP1 without any issues. I've tried several time to reproduce this freeze up but and can't.
I did have a few freezes before in stalled SP1, but since SP1 it's been stable and inning good.
I'd say it's safe to buy one if your buying new from a vendor that has recent stock. My was from TEquiptment.net.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #255 on: October 31, 2015, 08:21:52 pm »
Funny you should say that. I first ordered my scope from TEquipment back in February, and had to wait until April to actually get it, because they were sold out and also delayed because of the dock strike on the west coast. And that scope turned out to be defective, had a bad hardware-related glitch on CH4. To their credit TEquipment got a replacement to me in less than a week... BUT.... the replacement scope had a much _earlier_ serial number than the original one and didn't come double-boxed like the first one did. Unfortunately I don't know the Boot Version of the first, glitchy scope that I returned. I have a lingering suspicion that the one I have now didn't come in the April shipment received by TEquipment but may have been an earlier delivery that they somehow turned up and repackaged for me.

Be that as it may, I want my scope to work properly, and if that means I need to have Boot Ver 0.0.1.3 instead of 0.0.1.2... then I would appreciate it if Rigol would supply me with an upgrade that would install the later Boot Version and fix this issue. And at least 32 other people here probably would also like this to happen.

For those who aren't able to make their scopes freeze, please check your Boot Versions and report in. As I've shown in my most recent video, linked up above, it is very easy to get the freeze to happen, if your scope is susceptible to it. Just start from the Default setup (Storage>Default). Turn on all four channels, you don't need to separate the traces as I did in the video. Make sure that Acquire is Normal and Mem Depth is Auto. Set Display>Persis.Time>100 ms. Then press the Horizontal Scale knob to enter the Zoom mode. That works for me 100 percent of the time to make the scope freeze. 

But what about the Math error, which makes me have no faith in the Math, and isn't fixed, for me at least, by the new firmware? Is that also related somehow to the earlier Boot Version?

And is there really no way to uninstall the SP2 and roll back to the SP1 firmware? That's really a foul thing if true.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline l84coffee

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #256 on: October 31, 2015, 09:16:31 pm »
I bought mine at the end of Sept. It has boot version 0.0.1.3. and I haven't been able to get mine to freeze either.

Stan
 

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #257 on: October 31, 2015, 09:29:51 pm »
At least I know what to look for now as soon as I get it so I can send it right back.  :-+

Why take the risk? Much safer to spend $1500 on a "professional" 'scope. (which will also have bugs).

Because the DS1054Z is more than sufficient for my use and there are several other places I'd rather spend the difference in price.

Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #258 on: October 31, 2015, 09:42:29 pm »

But what about the Math error, which makes me have no faith in the Math, and isn't fixed, for me at least, by the new firmware? Is that also related somehow to the earlier Boot Version?

And is there really no way to uninstall the SP2 and roll back to the SP1 firmware? That's really a foul thing if true.
Mine also came single boxed after they got stock back in, that's when I bought it. I remember another glitch with an oscillating interference back then, but SP1 fixed it.

Well I broke out the cheap F-generator ($20 transitory tester) to test the math and ended up cleaning the lab, good news is the scope of warmed up for sure since I didn't turn it off. Since I sit out everything away I'm just going to use the F-generator and onboard test signal to see if the math is an issue on mine. I think it will work, I don't recall you saying anything about a specific kind of signal or frequency for that buy in the video. Someday I'll but a real function generator, it's on the list.

I don't want to try SP2 because of the sluggishness, sorry. But I'll report back on the math bug.
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Offline Marcos

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #259 on: October 31, 2015, 10:02:12 pm »
I just wonder if Rigol tested the new crappy firmware on any of their scopes  :phew:
If so, how it's possible to release to public such an unfinished software which creates more problems than the previous one ?
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #260 on: October 31, 2015, 10:14:08 pm »
I don't want to try SP2 because of the sluggishness, sorry.

Ya, that's my problem now. Okay, this scope IS slow, but now for me it is not useable with SP2 and can't set it back to SP1. I  can deal with the few bugs because I know about them. It's not really nice, but for this $US400 scope, okay for me.

I sleep a few days maybe weeks about it, look what happens here in the forum. Then I send the scope back as damaged device. (Bootloader 1.1.2) and hope got a version with 1.1.3 and SP1 firmware.

I am really pi*** off at the moment about this freaking Rigol action.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 10:17:32 pm by Fennec »
 

Offline Marcos

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #261 on: October 31, 2015, 10:45:13 pm »
Have a look on this info screen, it has boot version 0.0.0.13  !!!    (It was one of the early scopes)

So, Orange have 0.0.0.13 version , while l84coffee have 0.0.1.3 version .
Does these looks the same for you guys ?
Also, if anyone has an locked 100Mhz scope, please post your boot version here please.
I got a feeling that the Boot Version is changed once the 100Mhz option is unlocked Edit: wrong presumption, unrelated
 
@alsetalokin4017
Is your new scope received before September 2015 ?
I noticed that the Build Date in your screen is September 2015 (same as Fennec)but based on your posts (not sure) it was received in April. If so, you have received a scope from FUTURE?  :)  Confusing.
Am I missing something here?
Edit : Yes, I'm missing. Build Date is not equivalent with Manufacture Date
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 02:58:07 pm by Marcos »
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #262 on: November 01, 2015, 12:33:35 am »
Is your new scope received before September 2015 ?

Yes, because he found and posted the freeze bug ½ year ago.

I noticed that the Build Date in your screen is September 2015 (same as Fennec)but based on your posts (not sure) it was received in April. If so, you have received a scope from FUTURE?  :) 

The build date is the firmware build date. It has nothing to do with the scope itself. 
Seems like, my scope has arrived in April too. 2nd charge.

>>Confusing. Am I missing something here?

Ask me...  :-//         
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 12:38:33 am by Fennec »
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #263 on: November 01, 2015, 05:45:42 am »
So I had a video call with someone else that has a 1054Z. I had him pull the boot loader and it was 0.1.2, and running SP1.

So I told him how to do the freeze and it didn't lock up. I had him shut down, restart the scope and try it again, and no lock up. But I will say it got a slow at first when he zoomed in both time like it was just about to freeze, but it didn't. After about 10 seconds it started responding as expected.

His was also bought after the stock shortage and he waited for his to come back in stock, mine was 2 months after his but I got boot 0.1.3. Maybe he got the last of the 0.1.2 in stock?
Mine does not even start to slow down when I do it, but his almost became unresponsive both times for the first few seconds.

I will note his is running at 100Mhz and some other options turned on, not sure if that helped it prevent locking up?
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Offline kolbep

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #264 on: November 01, 2015, 07:04:24 am »
I am just curious.
In your picture (which is nice resolution btw)
Your inputs are paralleled on the scope,
and the Volts/div are set the same
But the 2 traces have different amplitude?
What would cause that

Here's my older unit. Still going strong. Firmware not required.  :-+ 


Now to find a buyer for the DS1102E. Should be able to get a few bucks for it.
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Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #265 on: November 01, 2015, 07:23:18 am »
Look a bit more closely  ;)
The V/div is set to different positions
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 07:28:11 am by crispy_tofu »
 

Offline Marcos

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #266 on: November 01, 2015, 08:32:40 am »
The build date is the firmware build date. It has nothing to do with the scope itself. 

I'm using the same firmware and the build date is May 2015.  :-//  /Edit: My bad, it was the previous version (SP1)  :rant:
Oh boy, what a mess !  :wtf:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 02:54:19 pm by Marcos »
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #267 on: November 01, 2015, 10:53:23 am »
I'm using the same firmware and the build date is May 2015.  :-//
I believe you have 00.04.03.00.01 (May/5/2015) and not the actual firmware. Pls make a pic of your settings with MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU > UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO

@Scottjd

All options installed, without 500µV  1rst pic
Removed all options 2nd & 3rd pic
Freeze and Math bug still there
Downgrade SP2 > SP1 not possible