Poll

Can you reproduce the Freeze-up Bug as described in this thread?

Yes, can reproduce the freezing.
42 (40%)
No, can't reproduce the freezing.
63 (60%)

Total Members Voted: 100

Author Topic: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??  (Read 136797 times)

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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #250 on: October 31, 2015, 06:05:28 pm »

Well, I would assume that Tek by now has resolved the crashing MDO3000 issues. It was perhaps 1 or 2 years ago, when I saw the MDO3000 on a trade show in Holland, and the guy demonstrating the scope was apologizing for the crashes. Within 10 seconds of demoing the thing was hanging. He replied to me very silent 'I just have loaded new firmware from Tektronix' (from the opposite booth) . Very embarrassing, and certainly not expected for such an expensive scope.

Regrettably, no. This is the latest firmware from May this year, I did the video earlier today. If the software behind it is in a similar state of disorganisation to the UI, I could imagine that trying to identify and fix bugs in the MDO3000 is a thankless task. I still use it frequently because of a single redeeming feature: it's very convenient to swing around the bench, it has a standard TV style VESA mount so it's on a gas spring mount, takes up zero bench space as a result. Being able to liberate it to 500MHz (among other options) is nice too of course, I wouldn't have made the purchase otherwise.

Back to the Rigol, I was trying to see if I could detect additional sluggishness, and I would say subjectively yes, the new firmware does seem more sluggish particularly when adjusting channel offset.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #251 on: October 31, 2015, 06:34:31 pm »
At least I know what to look for now as soon as I get it so I can send it right back.  :-+

Why take the risk? Much safer to spend $1500 on a "professional" 'scope. (which will also have bugs).
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #252 on: October 31, 2015, 06:36:50 pm »
The thing is that even with these firmware features, the DS1054Z remains by far the best value DSO there is.

ANd none of the problems are showstoppers. They're very specific and you'll probably never see them in general use.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #253 on: October 31, 2015, 06:58:54 pm »
The thing is that even with these firmware features, the DS1054Z remains by far the best value DSO there is.

ANd none of the problems are showstoppers. They're very specific and you'll probably never see them in general use.

If I may add that while I agree these bugs are of course annoying, and Rigol could fix them if they chose to, I am sure that in some respects Rigol is a victim of its own success. The DS1000Z series probably outsells any other bench scope family by an order of magnitude at the moment, there are bound to be more people pressing more buttons, revealing more problems that will more likely be aired in public as a result.

As an aside, a bugbear of mine is the mentality of adding new, often largely superfluous or gratuitous features, while choosing to completely ignore existing bugs. Often it is not the software guys, it's the bean counters who have allocated development budget but not bug fix budget, bean counters don't see bug fixing as a revenue generator because no one can figure out how to put a value on it in a spreadsheet. The additional measurements Rigol have added are an example. The icing on the cake is that they introduced a new bug as a result, albeit minor  |O
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #254 on: October 31, 2015, 07:04:01 pm »
And I was just about to order a Rigol DS1074Z.   |O  Is this freeze bug on the newer ones also?
I got mine 4 months ago. It also has the 0.0.1.3 boot-board 0.1.1 and I've been running SP1 without any issues. I've tried several time to reproduce this freeze up but and can't.
I did have a few freezes before in stalled SP1, but since SP1 it's been stable and inning good.
I'd say it's safe to buy one if your buying new from a vendor that has recent stock. My was from TEquiptment.net.
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #255 on: October 31, 2015, 08:21:52 pm »
Funny you should say that. I first ordered my scope from TEquipment back in February, and had to wait until April to actually get it, because they were sold out and also delayed because of the dock strike on the west coast. And that scope turned out to be defective, had a bad hardware-related glitch on CH4. To their credit TEquipment got a replacement to me in less than a week... BUT.... the replacement scope had a much _earlier_ serial number than the original one and didn't come double-boxed like the first one did. Unfortunately I don't know the Boot Version of the first, glitchy scope that I returned. I have a lingering suspicion that the one I have now didn't come in the April shipment received by TEquipment but may have been an earlier delivery that they somehow turned up and repackaged for me.

Be that as it may, I want my scope to work properly, and if that means I need to have Boot Ver 0.0.1.3 instead of 0.0.1.2... then I would appreciate it if Rigol would supply me with an upgrade that would install the later Boot Version and fix this issue. And at least 32 other people here probably would also like this to happen.

For those who aren't able to make their scopes freeze, please check your Boot Versions and report in. As I've shown in my most recent video, linked up above, it is very easy to get the freeze to happen, if your scope is susceptible to it. Just start from the Default setup (Storage>Default). Turn on all four channels, you don't need to separate the traces as I did in the video. Make sure that Acquire is Normal and Mem Depth is Auto. Set Display>Persis.Time>100 ms. Then press the Horizontal Scale knob to enter the Zoom mode. That works for me 100 percent of the time to make the scope freeze. 

But what about the Math error, which makes me have no faith in the Math, and isn't fixed, for me at least, by the new firmware? Is that also related somehow to the earlier Boot Version?

And is there really no way to uninstall the SP2 and roll back to the SP1 firmware? That's really a foul thing if true.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline l84coffee

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #256 on: October 31, 2015, 09:16:31 pm »
I bought mine at the end of Sept. It has boot version 0.0.1.3. and I haven't been able to get mine to freeze either.

Stan
 

Offline SLJ

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #257 on: October 31, 2015, 09:29:51 pm »
At least I know what to look for now as soon as I get it so I can send it right back.  :-+

Why take the risk? Much safer to spend $1500 on a "professional" 'scope. (which will also have bugs).

Because the DS1054Z is more than sufficient for my use and there are several other places I'd rather spend the difference in price.

Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #258 on: October 31, 2015, 09:42:29 pm »

But what about the Math error, which makes me have no faith in the Math, and isn't fixed, for me at least, by the new firmware? Is that also related somehow to the earlier Boot Version?

And is there really no way to uninstall the SP2 and roll back to the SP1 firmware? That's really a foul thing if true.
Mine also came single boxed after they got stock back in, that's when I bought it. I remember another glitch with an oscillating interference back then, but SP1 fixed it.

Well I broke out the cheap F-generator ($20 transitory tester) to test the math and ended up cleaning the lab, good news is the scope of warmed up for sure since I didn't turn it off. Since I sit out everything away I'm just going to use the F-generator and onboard test signal to see if the math is an issue on mine. I think it will work, I don't recall you saying anything about a specific kind of signal or frequency for that buy in the video. Someday I'll but a real function generator, it's on the list.

I don't want to try SP2 because of the sluggishness, sorry. But I'll report back on the math bug.
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Offline Marcos

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #259 on: October 31, 2015, 10:02:12 pm »
I just wonder if Rigol tested the new crappy firmware on any of their scopes  :phew:
If so, how it's possible to release to public such an unfinished software which creates more problems than the previous one ?
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #260 on: October 31, 2015, 10:14:08 pm »
I don't want to try SP2 because of the sluggishness, sorry.

Ya, that's my problem now. Okay, this scope IS slow, but now for me it is not useable with SP2 and can't set it back to SP1. I  can deal with the few bugs because I know about them. It's not really nice, but for this $US400 scope, okay for me.

I sleep a few days maybe weeks about it, look what happens here in the forum. Then I send the scope back as damaged device. (Bootloader 1.1.2) and hope got a version with 1.1.3 and SP1 firmware.

I am really pi*** off at the moment about this freaking Rigol action.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 10:17:32 pm by Fennec »
 

Offline Marcos

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #261 on: October 31, 2015, 10:45:13 pm »
Have a look on this info screen, it has boot version 0.0.0.13  !!!    (It was one of the early scopes)

So, Orange have 0.0.0.13 version , while l84coffee have 0.0.1.3 version .
Does these looks the same for you guys ?
Also, if anyone has an locked 100Mhz scope, please post your boot version here please.
I got a feeling that the Boot Version is changed once the 100Mhz option is unlocked Edit: wrong presumption, unrelated
 
@alsetalokin4017
Is your new scope received before September 2015 ?
I noticed that the Build Date in your screen is September 2015 (same as Fennec)but based on your posts (not sure) it was received in April. If so, you have received a scope from FUTURE?  :)  Confusing.
Am I missing something here?
Edit : Yes, I'm missing. Build Date is not equivalent with Manufacture Date
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 02:58:07 pm by Marcos »
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #262 on: November 01, 2015, 12:33:35 am »
Is your new scope received before September 2015 ?

Yes, because he found and posted the freeze bug ½ year ago.

I noticed that the Build Date in your screen is September 2015 (same as Fennec)but based on your posts (not sure) it was received in April. If so, you have received a scope from FUTURE?  :) 

The build date is the firmware build date. It has nothing to do with the scope itself. 
Seems like, my scope has arrived in April too. 2nd charge.

>>Confusing. Am I missing something here?

Ask me...  :-//         
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 12:38:33 am by Fennec »
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #263 on: November 01, 2015, 05:45:42 am »
So I had a video call with someone else that has a 1054Z. I had him pull the boot loader and it was 0.1.2, and running SP1.

So I told him how to do the freeze and it didn't lock up. I had him shut down, restart the scope and try it again, and no lock up. But I will say it got a slow at first when he zoomed in both time like it was just about to freeze, but it didn't. After about 10 seconds it started responding as expected.

His was also bought after the stock shortage and he waited for his to come back in stock, mine was 2 months after his but I got boot 0.1.3. Maybe he got the last of the 0.1.2 in stock?
Mine does not even start to slow down when I do it, but his almost became unresponsive both times for the first few seconds.

I will note his is running at 100Mhz and some other options turned on, not sure if that helped it prevent locking up?
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Offline kolbep

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #264 on: November 01, 2015, 07:04:24 am »
I am just curious.
In your picture (which is nice resolution btw)
Your inputs are paralleled on the scope,
and the Volts/div are set the same
But the 2 traces have different amplitude?
What would cause that

Here's my older unit. Still going strong. Firmware not required.  :-+ 


Now to find a buyer for the DS1102E. Should be able to get a few bucks for it.
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Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #265 on: November 01, 2015, 07:23:18 am »
Look a bit more closely  ;)
The V/div is set to different positions
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 07:28:11 am by crispy_tofu »
 

Offline Marcos

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #266 on: November 01, 2015, 08:32:40 am »
The build date is the firmware build date. It has nothing to do with the scope itself. 

I'm using the same firmware and the build date is May 2015.  :-//  /Edit: My bad, it was the previous version (SP1)  :rant:
Oh boy, what a mess !  :wtf:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 02:54:19 pm by Marcos »
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #267 on: November 01, 2015, 10:53:23 am »
I'm using the same firmware and the build date is May 2015.  :-//
I believe you have 00.04.03.00.01 (May/5/2015) and not the actual firmware. Pls make a pic of your settings with MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU > UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO

@Scottjd

All options installed, without 500µV  1rst pic
Removed all options 2nd & 3rd pic
Freeze and Math bug still there
Downgrade SP2 > SP1 not possible
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #268 on: November 01, 2015, 10:59:12 am »
Current state with latest firmware (00.04.03.SP2, from Sep 11 2015)
  • No freezing on mine.
  • No math bug either.
  • Pluses typo is present.
  • It is a bit sluggish when all 4 channels active in Zoom, but still usable.
  • All options installed except 500uV.

FWIW, it arrived at my door 19 Nov. 2014.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 05:41:50 am by nanofrog »
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #269 on: November 01, 2015, 11:31:45 am »
Hmm, the different is the 2nd part of Build Date only.
And you are sure you can't activate that freeze bug ? Pls watch the Video and try it again, maybe you made a mistake.
If I turn on all channels without zoom, I have to wait SECONDS between turn the knob and the trace moves ! Thats not usable.  100-200ms maybe, but not 1-2s
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #270 on: November 01, 2015, 02:18:56 pm »
Have a look on this info screen, it has boot version 0.0.0.13  !!!    (It was one of the early scopes)

So, Orange have 0.0.0.13 version , while l84coffee have 0.0.1.3 version .
Does these looks the same for you guys ?
Also, if anyone has an locked 100Mhz scope, please post your boot version here please.
I got a feeling that the Boot Version is changed once the 100Mhz option is unlocked


No, the Boot Ver remains the same whether the scope is locked or unlocked. At least mine does. And the scope will freeze whether 50MHz and no options, or 100 MHz and all options "official".
Quote
@alsetalokin4017
Is your new scope received before September 2015 ?
I noticed that the Build Date in your screen is September 2015 (same as Fennec)but based on your posts (not sure) it was received in April. If so, you have received a scope from FUTURE?  :)  Confusing. Am I missing something here?

No, I got my scope from the PAST, evidently.   :-//

As Fennec says, I got my scope in April. The Build Date refers to the SP2 firmware (what the scope calls "SoftWare Version"). The numbers after the build date have something to do with the total running time of the scope, I think.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 02:58:42 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #271 on: November 01, 2015, 02:58:14 pm »
I'm prepared to believe that scopes with Boot Ver 0.0.1.3 don't have the Freeze Bug. But I'm confused as to why some people with Boot Ver 0.0.1.2 can't reproduce it either.

Here are simple instructions, again, that always work for me.

1. Power on scope. When it has finished booting up:

2. Go to Storage and press Default (at bottom of first Storage menu page) to load the Default setup. This should turn on only CH1, 1 V/div, 1.00 us/div, etc.
--This step is just to make sure we are all starting from the same place.--

3. Go to Acquire and make sure that Normal mode is set and Mem Depth is Auto.
--This should already be set by the Default setup but check anyhow.--

4. Turn on all 4 channels.
--It is not necessary to separate the traces vertically.--

5. Go to Display and set Persis. Time to 100 ms.
--Actually any Persis.Time other than "min" will also cause freezing.--

6. Press the Horizontal Scale knob to enter Horizontal Zoom mode.

--- my scope freezes here 100 percent of the time. ---


For the Math trace bug in its most basic form, the scope must be set to 500 ns/div timebase, so you should have a square wave signal source that produces a few pulses that will be visible at that fast setting. 350 kHz or so. (The Math bug will show up at other timebases too, and in the Zoom mode, if you have a complex signal displayed.)

1. Power on scope. When it finishes booting:

2. Storage>Default

3. Turn on all four channels. Separate traces vertically.
--If you have SP2 installed this will take some time, and a light touch on the Vertical Position knob.   :palm:   ---

4. Set Horizontal to 500 ns/div.

5. In Acquire, set Average mode and Averages to 2, Mem Depth Auto.

6. Connect Ch1 and CH2 probes to your signal source. It's easiest to use the same source for both channels. Adjust Trigger Level and Vertical Scale settings for a nice display.

7. Press the MATH button twice. In Operator, select A+B, or A*B. (Other operations may also produce the error.) In SourceA, select CH1. In SourceB, select CH2.

8. Now press Operation to turn the Math trace ON.  Use Scale to control the vertical amplitude of the Math trace. You should see something like the screen below:

(Or rather... you should NOT see such an error UNLESS your scope has the Math Bug still.)


(For an added treat, in Measure select Source>Math and then display the "+Pulses" item.   Insert FacePlam here.)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 03:08:57 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #272 on: November 01, 2015, 02:59:20 pm »
But the 2 traces have different amplitude?
What would cause that

 :-DD

Believe it or not those 'scopes have separate volts/div settings for each channel. 

 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #273 on: November 01, 2015, 03:36:07 pm »
O RLY RIGOL ????   :wtf:    :palm:

This is starting to get really ridiculous.

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline JohnPen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z Freeze-up Bug Confirmed ??
« Reply #274 on: November 01, 2015, 03:38:40 pm »
From June 2015  New Rigol DS1054Z

Post 1525

Further information on the 'freeze' condition.  I have tried a few other checks on recovery from a 'freeze' see below.

Start conditions: 1khz calibrate signal on CH1,  120kpts, normal display, 100msec Persistence

Timebase in usec.         Time taken for Delayed to go to ON state.

500                                      ~1 sec
200                                      ~2-3 sec
100                                      ~4 sec
50                                        ~6-7 sec
20                                        ~30 sec
10                                        ~40 sec *
5                                          ~35 minutes
1                                          I hate to think!

* Incidentally the screen display highlight for the button takes some 10 secs to appear followed another 30 sec to become active again.  The highlighting always precedes the becoming active condition.

It would appear that wherever the f/w goes it recovers but whatever looping condition is involved the timebase period is impacting on the termination time of the loop.  Each timebase increment increases the sampling rate and presumably extends the data storage requirements in some way,perhaps there are many 100 msec persistences, being stored!  Until that all completes and says ok nothing further happens!  I will try some more thoughts out later.

and Post 1527

It would seem that a relationship between the Sampling rate and the 'freeze' condition does exist see below:

TB usec         Sampling Rate Msa/s     Delayed ON secs

500                     10                         ~1
200                     25                         ~2-3
100                     50                         ~4
50                      125                        ~6-7
20                      250                        ~30
10                      500                        ~40
5                       1,000                      ~35 minutes

I will try these checks again for the latest firmware to see if there is any change.

 


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