Author Topic: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite  (Read 7982 times)

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Offline real69

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Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« on: March 15, 2016, 08:21:08 pm »
hay guys,
There are lods of video about Keysite 3000XT not much about RTM 2034.If anyone used Rohde & Schwarz RTM2034 and keysite 3000XT, which one will u recommend ?cheers
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 08:25:33 pm by real69 »
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2016, 08:36:12 pm »
hay guys,
There are lods of video about Keysite 3000XT not much about RTM 2034.If anyone used Rohde & Schwarz RTM2034 and keysite 3000XT, which one will u recommend ?cheers

That depends. Both are pretty expensive for what they offer, but if I had to choose between these two then I'd opt for the Keysight.

However, if I needed a scope in this class I'd rather go for a LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000, which offers a lot more for noticeably less money.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2016, 08:38:22 pm »
hay guys,
There are lods of video about Keysite 3000XT not much about RTM 2034.If anyone used Rohde & Schwarz RTM2034 and keysite 3000XT, which one will u recommend ?cheers
That depends. Both are pretty expensive for what they offer, but if I had to choose between these two then I'd opt for the Keysight.

However, if I needed a scope in this class I'd rather go for a LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000, which offers a lot more for noticeably less money.
I second that especially since the 3000XT memory is much shorter in reality than you'd expect and the R&S options are insanely expensive.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2016, 08:43:49 pm »
It is hard to say in general. The scopes are just different. Choose the one that meets your needs.
I would go for the Keysight, but it has only 4mV / div most sensitive vertical setting.
Max Memory Depth   4 Mpts is not that much. It is probably 2Mpts per channel when all channels are on. http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-0140EN.pdf?id=2545408
But the scope is probably very responsive and the acquisition is up to 1000 000 waveforms per seconds not depending on serial decoding, FFT or whatever.

RTM2034 has only  12500 waveforms per second. But you decide what you need.
http://cdn1.shop.rohde-schwarz.com/media/catalog/product/R/&/R&S%C2%AERTM_Datasheet_2.pdf
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 08:46:19 pm by Hydrawerk »
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline real69

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2016, 08:51:01 pm »
the reason for choosing a ~$4200 class oscilloscope is cause i might need the Power analysis option,which both R&S and Keysite have. Which cost ~800-1200$  :palm: . the keysite wil work fine BUT as you guys all said it that Memory is what is bothering me, i might have chosen the SLOW Rigole 4000 series..but the FFT is just.....na.  R&S even have a spectrogram option, i guess its FFT is better then 64Kpt of KEysite? R&S didnt mention it in the documentation. Any idea abt the FFT of RTM series?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2016, 09:12:55 pm »
It is hard to say in general. The scopes are just different. Choose the one that meets your needs.
I would go for the Keysight, but it has only 4mV / div most sensitive vertical setting.
Max Memory Depth   4 Mpts is not that much. It is probably 2Mpts per channel when all channels are on.
Actually it is worse than that. Keysight uses half the memory for double buffering so with all channels on you are down to 1/4 of the memory IF you have the digital channels and reference traces off. If you turn the digital channels and/or reference traces on then you are looking at even less memory. It is borderline criminal how Keysight overspecifies the memory depth!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline valgamaa

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2016, 09:13:42 pm »
the reason for choosing a ~$4200 class oscilloscope is cause i might need the Power analysis option,which both R&S and Keysite have. Which cost ~800-1200$  :palm: . the keysite wil work fine BUT as you guys all said it that Memory is what is bothering me, i might have chosen the SLOW Rigole 4000 series..but the FFT is just.....na.  R&S even have a spectrogram option, i guess its FFT is better then 64Kpt of KEysite? R&S didnt mention it in the documentation. Any idea abt the FFT of RTM series?
The FFT is 128k points.
Keep in mind that R+S are new to the 'scope market so to some extent they are trying to gain market share. Option pricing is silly for most 'scopes, but as it is a software key it is what the manufacturers use to negotiate with (which is why Tek had the offer on the MDO3000 before Christmas with all options 'free'). They also know what the pricing is of their competitors, so they are flexible if that can 'close the sale'.
 

Offline zaoka

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2016, 09:23:09 pm »
R&C gear is the best quality one I ever seen.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2016, 09:30:59 pm »
R&C gear is the best quality one I ever seen.
They have that name from the old (military grade) RF gear and try to cash in on that. Oscilloscopes are a different beast though and they have to compete with other brands in that market! Toyota used to make very rugged and reliable cars but nowadays their cars are just as bad as the competition.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2016, 09:58:33 pm »
Keep in mind that R+S are new to the 'scope market so to some extent they are trying to gain market share.

Not *that* new. They took over Hameg in 2006 or so and have their own scopes since 2010.

Quote
Option pricing is silly for most 'scopes, but as it is a software key it is what the manufacturers use to negotiate with (which is why Tek had the offer on the MDO3000 before Christmas with all options 'free'). They also know what the pricing is of their competitors, so they are flexible if that can 'close the sale'.

Tek had the offer because outside from the edu market their sales continue to shrinking, which considering their lackluster offerings is not really a surprise. The only thing going for the MDO3k is the integrated spectrum analyzer, however its specs are mediocre at best and the rest of the scope is pretty underwhelming.

R&C gear is the best quality one I ever seen.

R&S has great quality gear, but they also have very high prices. Plus the RTM2000 is pretty much just a RTM1000 with MSO option and better FFT, and the RTM1000 came out in 2010. You can sometimes find a 2nd hand RTM1000 for low prices but at list price it's very expensive for what you get.

For most tasks at the moment the option in the lower mid-range class is the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-datasheet.pdf
 

Offline pxl

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2016, 07:15:19 am »
For most tasks at the moment the option in the lower mid-range class is the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-datasheet.pdf

Probably it is not that relevant in this category, but how about the vent noise? Is that reasonable or it is on the louder side?
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2016, 09:40:49 am »
Probably it is not that relevant in this category, but how about the vent noise? Is that reasonable or it is on the louder side?

Noise is quite relevant, after all these scopes usually sit directly in front of an user who may want to focus on his task.

The R&S RTM is probably the best in this regard, aside froma short spinup after power-on it's fan will turn down as to become unnoticeable. The Keysight and the LeCroy are not loud but you'll hear them.
 

Offline AndyP

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2016, 02:20:57 pm »
I recently had the same dilemma
350 MHz, mixed signed with serial deocders + any extra we can get (R&S spectrograph quite nice)
Mainly keysight kit in the place, so many people used to Keysight '3000 scopes.

RTM2034 -
Good points
3% cheaper

Analog -
2 probes = 5GS/s - 20 Megasamples per channel  (vs Keysight 4M total memory )
4 probes = 2.5GS/s - 10Megasamples per channel

Mixed signal
1 probe (8 bits) = 5GS/s - 20 Megasamples per channel  (vs Keysight 4M total memory )
2 probes(16 bits)= 2.5GS/s - 10Megasamples per channel

Segmented - 460MSample buffer
45,000+ segments @ 10k samples per segment to 23 segments @ 20Msample per segment - each segment much larger than keysight total memory.
Finer control over sgemented memory (keysight tries to do a good 'auto', but when it gets it wrong there not much you can do)
5us between  segments in Ultra mode (= 200,000 waveforms per second)

A then B trigger
Nice 'scope probes
Bigger display (better resolution), for same size 'scope.

Interface fine, Undo / Redo buttons handy.

Clock error.
Good - 2.5ppm (much better than MSO3000A - 25ppm, similar MSO3000X - 1.5ppm)

Weak Points
Much lower waveforms per second (but very low latency between segments is very good for solving some problems requiring high wfps)
Web interface was a little slow (BUT I was running on a very flakey network connection, so I'm not sure it was the scope)
A different set of minor interface quirks compared to Keysight.

In summary....
Pleased with the purchase, great 'scope.
The extra memory is a big advantage over Keysight, BUT some problems need the very high waveforms/s that keysight provides, so it depends what you needed it for.

Feel free to message if you have any questions


 

Offline Keysight DanielBogdanoff

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2016, 03:26:38 pm »
disclaimer: I might be (definitely am) biased towards the Keysight. I love the power app, but what I really like is how the fast waveform update rate allows us to run a lot of tests pretty quickly.  Turning on measurements, apps, etc. won't slow down the scope because it's all done in the ASIC.

The capacitive touch screen is also really nice for UI things like moving around menus, cursors, and signals or the on screen keyboard.

The obvious weakness is memory depth, but that only comes into play for longer time/div settings (slows the sample rate) or for offloading the capture to a PC for deep analysis.  I've found that most people don't use longer memory settings on their scopes because it tends to slow down the update rate, though I expect forum members are generally more advanced scope users and this may not be true.

P.S. I try not to weigh in on these threads, but sometimes I can't help myself :)  I'd also be happy to talk further over PM or e-mail if you'd like!
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2016, 04:04:54 pm »
I choose a scope with deep memory over one with a fast waveform update rate every time! I'm not saying I use deep memory every day but I do need it regulary. Keysight's offerings just don't cut it when it comes to memory especially since the amount of memory is divided by at least 4 in most practical usage scenarios. If I buy a scope I'd go for at least 10Mpts per channel nowadays. Waveforms/s can easely be overcome by setting up the trigger wisely (and you don't have to look at the screen all the time) but you can't undo lack of memory that easely. Just taking one sweep and analysing afterwards is much easier than having to setup different triggers and doing several sweeps to gather all the information (assuming the data from several different measurements can be correlated at all!).
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 04:17:58 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline real69

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2017, 02:16:17 pm »
hi guys,
i bought the Keysight one. My experience is quite good but one thing i will say about the keysight is they should seriously look into their Rf shielding design, cause when we use the oscilloscope in our lab near inverter the touch goes crazy. Other than that the performance is as i was expecting. 
 

Offline rfbroadband

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz or Keysite
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2017, 06:36:03 pm »
if FFTs on a scope are important to you you should consider the R&S scopes. The software options on R&S scopes are overpriced, for some customers that is sufficient to purchase Keysight.

No matter your decision, I would not purchase a new one at list price. There are plenty of used scopes available.
 


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