Beginner scope: MSO5000, SDS1104X-E, GDS-1054B/GDS-2000E

[Fungus]

Hi

I hope u all will be fine.

Please don't mind but why are u people not discussing the micsig o'scope? is it not a good bench scope(the knob version)

The MicSig is an excellent o'scope, you can buy one without fear.

[tv84]

Please don't mind but why are u people not discussing the micsig o'scope? is it not a good bench scope(the knob version)

It's simple: because people who are writing here have mostly Rigol and Siglent.

So, about Micsig, if no one has hands on experience you're better off judging for yourself based on the comparisons of the other brands!

[Antonio90]

Thak you all very much!
That's a lot of info right there.

I've also read about only buying what you need and not worrying too much about "future proofing" yourself. But I think it makes more sense in a professional environment and for specific purposes. It doesn't make much sense to take a snapshot of a beginner "needs" as, if everything goes well, those will change very fast at first (this is all a bit of guesswork, but seems logical). On the other hand I don't know if it is really that easy to outgrow some of the beginner scopes, they seem like extremely capable tools despite their limitations when compared with higher end oscilloscopes. Heck, I remember when I was around 12 a friend of my parents was extremely happy because he could finally afford a 20Mhz analog scope. He actually let me look at it but didn't seem like an interesting tool really, just a few wiggly lines  All in all, I don't mind having to buy a new scope two+ years from now if it costs ~400€, I would probably sell it in a heartbeat for 250€ and I'm pretty happy with that.

Also the suitability of a tool for learning purposes is also to be taken into account. IE the AD2 kind of does "everything", albeit with very limited capabilities. I suppose that can help decide later on which specialised tools are worth investing into.

As for the Micsig STO1104C, I've been doing some research. It looks great, nice user interface, touch and knobs, it's UI is quite fast, allows for video recording and comes with very nice probes. It's form factor is convenient, even if you don't need portability and should the need arise, it has batteries. The user nctnico had a review of the tablet only version and there's a review of the STO in mikeselectricstuff's youtube channel.
However, nctnico mentions in his review that he could only get a 43kpts FFT if I understood correctly, and I don't remember listening anything about that in the youtube review. The spec sheet doesn't specify and I sent an email to their support with various questions including the FFT record lenght but they didn't answer that question specifically. On the other hand the Instek has great math features, and the FFT is really good according to the FFT comparison video from Dave. He also says you have to push many buttons and turn a knob a lot for that, but I'm not really in a position to nitpick about UI polish.

So, it's a really nice 'scope with a lot of features and with better overall usability than the basic ones I was pondering, but It seems a bit limited in math features and it's also the most expensive.

[nctnico]

Please don't mind but why are u people not discussing the micsig o'scope? is it not a good bench scope(the knob version)

I have the MicSig TO1000 myself (without knobs) and I think it is perfectly suitable as a bench scope. With or without knobs is a personal preference. However the MicSig doesn't offer bode plot which is a useful feature when designing amplifiers (which the OP seems to be aiming for).

[Antonio90]

Please don't mind but why are u people not discussing the micsig o'scope? is it not a good bench scope(the knob version)

I have the MicSig TO1000 myself (without knobs) and I think it is perfectly suitable as a bench scope. With or without knobs is a personal preference. However the MicSig doesn't offer bode plot which is a useful feature when designing amplifiers (which the OP seems to be aiming for).

But if I buy a scope in that price range it will be paired with an AD2, which does bode plots.

EDIT: I'm going to buy an Analog Discovery 2. Based on some youtube videos from TheStuffMade and tomtektest I've concluded that it can do frecuency response analysis just fine for audio amps, at least for now. There's also an audio analyzer suite by TheStuffMade which looks useful.
As the oscilloscope capabilities are still pretty limited, I will end up buying a dedicated oscilloscope, so any input on the matter is greatly appreciated. This means I'm left with 800€ budget now, which seems like a weird spot to buy a scope since it's more than needed for a basic scope but not enough for the next step up in price. Anyway, I have no problem whatsoever spending less than that.

Thank you for all the help, I really appreciate it.

[2N3055]

In that case you decide if portability and small space usage is important to you. In that case you cannot go wrong with Micsig.
If you want more classical scope, GDS-1054B at price that it is now is also cannot go wrong option.

Between AD2 and any of those two you will have tons of capabilities.
Rest of the money use for something else and useful, like multimeter, soldering equipment, other tools..

[Antonio90]

Update: I got a response from Micsig, maybe this is well known already, but the FFT has 100Kpoints.

In that case you decide if portability and small space usage is important to you. In that case you cannot go wrong with Micsig.
If you want more classical scope, GDS-1054B at price that it is now is also cannot go wrong option.

Between AD2 and any of those two you will have tons of capabilities.
Rest of the money use for something else and useful, like multimeter, soldering equipment, other tools..

That's what I will most likely do, now on to decide between those two!

Edit: It's already done: I pulled the trigger on the GDS-1054B from Tequipment, even after shipping (with customs and VAT included) it's 392€, while in europe it is around 410 before VAT. The Micsig is 639€ in Batronix so those 240 bucks helped in making the decision.

Thank you all for the help.

[Fungus]

.... those 240 bucks helped in making the decision.

Take them here: https://brymen.eu/product-category/multimetry/

[fkfaraz]

hello

thank u all for your response @fungus @antonio @nctnico

I am from a south Asian country and i have access only to Chinese TE manufacturer through Ali express and banggood (Ebay and amazon does not work here ).

Now between rigol, Siglent and micsig, i am always attracted to the micsig despite the greater price. But my budget and field work does not allow me to setup my elcet work bench..

BTW

the GDS-1054b had dedicated controls which is nice.

Also Brymen is nice but PACE ads200 is more tempting

[AlexBbb]

Hello All,

Thanks a lot for all the information, I'm a new member of the forum who is slowly building a small electronics lab (hobby) with prime focus on microcontrollers/programming and signal processing, so yes, thinking about oscilloscope. My last time when I have used it was over 20 years ago (oh jeez time flies) and my old uses were relatively simple. Keeping all of this in mind I have looked on MicSig TO1000, Rigol DS1054Z, and Rigol MSO5074. I do suspect that 1054Z will fulfill all that I need today and potentially tomorrow, but thinking that I potentially will prefer a more recent product (MSO5074) with some capabilities which I can use in the future, but the reality I don't have any idea how deep into electronics I will go and will I ever need all those bells and whistles which MSO5074 offer.
Putting the commercial side apart, what I will miss if I chose to go with DS1054Z today given I'm quite a basic user today?

Upd: I do think I set myself for 5074, just a little too much of information for last few days 

Regards,
Alex

[srjaynes49]

I agree with the "Grow Into" comment, regarding the Rigol MSO5074.  IF you're doing robotics, Arduino stye micro controllers, or even Raspberry Pi projects, there's a lot to be said for a 4-channel scope with the triggering facilities and built-in signal generator of the MS5000 family with the -BUND upgrade.

THAT SAID, it's a lot to learn for a beginner.  Approach it like eating an elephant.  Take it a bite at a time. 

On the other hand, you're unlikely to outgrow the performance and features of this class of scope for many years.

I chose the MSO5074 for several reasons but mostly because I could get a "Clearance Center" MSO5074 with VERY good digital specs at a significant discount:  It was a priced only a few hundred dollars more than a "similar" scope with only 2 MegaSamples/sec..  I assure you, after owning a 1 MegaSample, 2-channel digital storage scope for 5+ years, that a big deal!

You can apply the type of comparison below for your favorite candidates and see how they compare.  Just because I chose a "Bargain Department" MS)5074 doesn't mean it's the best choice for you!  Something about "Your Milage" is almost guaranteed to be different than mine.

FIGURE OUT WHAT FEATURES AND SPECS ARE ESSENTIAL for YOU and try to be honest, leaving your brand prejudice at the door.  I assume every dollar is important to you, but money spent without yielding the required utility is money wasted!

SOME of my criteria:

I chose it because of:
01) PRICE / Performance / Features  - i.e. Bang for the buck for MY needs.  (Teaching science, robotics, electronics, beginning programming to home-school teenagers)
02) Built-in TWO-CHANNEL AWG for educational and practical purposes
03) AWSOME Triggering options
04) Same AWSOME protocol decoding
05) Available integrated Logic Analyzer
06) 8 MegaSamples per second, vs 2ish MegaSamples per second of other options I considered, especially with 4-channels.
07 200M points of recording, especially with 4-channels
08) Larger Screen than some other models considered
09) FOUR analog channels with INDIVIDUAL controls for the 4 vertical inputs.
10) Help and action menus mostly pretty good.  LOTS of information to display and its managed pretty well.  Room for improvement?  Sure, as always.  May be helpful too newbies.

I would NOT chose it for, but can give it a pass for:
01) Ease of operation / learning curve.  Going to take some work on your part. 
02) Black Color motif.  Hard for my old eyes to discern labels in low light
03) Rectangle reticle grid.  Should be square like everyone else!
04) DVM function should be at least 5 digit, especially with the great custom ASICS in the vertical front-ends
05) I actually like the way the older series of OWON scopes display measurement data for each channel.  MSO5000 is somehow sparse, yet crowded at the same time.  I'm still finding my way around the display choices
06)  While they seem to meet performance specs, probes are nothing special.  A little flimsy. 
07)  Accessory pricing like scope front panel cover, carry bag, etc. are obscene.  Even the Logic Analyzer probe is too expensive, but I don't have time or inclination to fab one myself.
08)  No auto-sensing for 10x probes.  How much would that have cost???  Seems a shame...

Did I mention PRICE/Performance ratio, especially if you hack???

I DO NOT HAVE complaints about some items others dislike:
1)  Display brightness.  Measurement Traces and reticle grid have independent brightness, just like an old analog scope.  Works for me.
2)  General form-factor/weight/physical characteristics are not a problem.
3)  Customer Service has been awesome!
4)  Missing 50 ohm option on inputs.  I have lots of 50 ohm terminators and it's too common to forget to check if someone else changed the input impedance.


Read, test, question.  Make your choice and dig in.  ANYTHING you buy today is SO powerful than what was available anywhere near these prices even a decade ago!

BTW, I still have my old Tektronix 1970's Model 475, 200-MHz analog scope under the bench, just in case....

[AlexBbb]

Thanks a lot for comments, I'm coming from the view where I don't have any specific requirements and my past experience is not applicable anymore so regardless of the model I will need to learn how to use it basically from 0.
Saying this, I already have placed my order and will be getting 5074 shortly, so will be another challenge is to learn and refresh my past knowledge , build (or not build) LA, etc etc ...

[Rigel]

I just had to comment on your eating an elephant comment!

Why on earth would you want to eat an elephant.... Do they taste like chicken?
I first hear the quote as How do you eat a 1000 lb potato. One Byte at a time. (I was in a programming class). So Yay to Potato's boo to eating Elephants!

Hopefully closer to being back on topic. Does anyone know of a good resource for Educational or Student discounts on test equipment. I am returning to finish my school program after awhile, I am going to be able to take some courses by distance, but I need to build a Home Electronics lab. (will be cheaper than moving across the country for a semester). We had 200mhz scopes in the lab a couple years back so something in that range should work. Do not really want to hijack the thread, so I wont go into much more detail. But if there is a really good education or student discount please let me know.
Richard