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Author Topic: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E  (Read 128091 times)

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Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #175 on: June 28, 2017, 09:40:33 pm »
For those that've had DSO experience the bugs aren't so bad that they can't be worked around but for a smart scope novice they are apparent and disconcerting.

Now that's an interesting line of argument: "You are just too inexperienced to work around the bugs, newbie!". Very endearing, especially coming from a Siglent dealer. I am sure the Siglent X-E line will now quickly gain cult status as the scope for real men...
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #176 on: June 28, 2017, 10:44:24 pm »
@exe While you have every right to decide to send yours back, I think you are being a bit hasty with your decision.  I may be wrong but I believe that Siglent will fix the trigger issue within a month, probably less.
Seeing is believing. I already have made the mistake to wait for Siglent to fix firmware but that ended up with having to buy a different scope + dumping the Siglent one into the bin.

And yet, Siglent has also provided timely fixes for other products (e.g., their new DMMs, their function generators, to name two -- there may be others as well).

So Siglent might step up to the plate here, or they might not.  Your experience with them is older than the improved behavior they've more recently exhibited.  To insist that Siglent will behave for this the same way that they did with your scope is the same as insisting that ovnr's experience (here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/opinions-on-gw-instek-scopes/msg1131121/#msg1131121) with GW Instek's firmware updates for their scopes overrides yours.  After all, he also waited a long time (years) before Instek came out with improved firmware.

Siglent now has the opportunity to succeed by showing it will pursue firmware fixes for their oscilloscopes much more aggressively than they have in the past.  They also now have the opportunity to fail.  It's on them to decide which it's going to be.


Oh, and just for the record, you did prove at least somewhat correct with respect to Siglent's initial firmware release -- they do seem to have at least one rather bad bug in it (the trigger threshold disappearing when you go into AC coupled mode).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 10:55:06 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #177 on: June 28, 2017, 10:52:46 pm »
Of course this was 'work in progress' and shouldn't be put aside as owners of other equipment are waiting for FW tweaks too.
I nag the factory every week for X-E FW but as a SW engineer you know damn well that with a # of bugs the risk is that you create more bugs with the ones you fix. You also know the process of beta testing takes good time with further tweaks and further tests adding to delays.
That you couldn't wait is fine but in your profession I do find your lack of understanding ...........  :-//

The process of testing and so forth wouldn't be as visible an issue with the proper pipelining setup.  It's entirely possible to set things up such that firmware releases with bug fixes are done on a schedule.  Yes, the amount of time between discovery of a bug and a fix for it would not change with such an approach, but at least the bug fixes would come in a steady stream.

There is always risk of introducing new bugs whenever alterations are made.  What matters is the rate of bug production versus the rate of fixes.  As long as the latter outpaces the former, all is good.  It's when the former outpaces the latter that it's time to stop development altogether and do a ground-up rewrite (since those conditions usually arise as a result of the complexity of the software growing to an unmanageable state).
 

Online tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #178 on: June 28, 2017, 11:33:06 pm »
Of course this was 'work in progress' and shouldn't be put aside as owners of other equipment are waiting for FW tweaks too.
I nag the factory every week for X-E FW but as a SW engineer you know damn well that with a # of bugs the risk is that you create more bugs with the ones you fix. You also know the process of beta testing takes good time with further tweaks and further tests adding to delays.
That you couldn't wait is fine but in your profession I do find your lack of understanding ...........  :-//

The process of testing and so forth wouldn't be as visible an issue with the proper pipelining setup.  It's entirely possible to set things up such that firmware releases with bug fixes are done on a schedule.  Yes, the amount of time between discovery of a bug and a fix for it would not change with such an approach, but at least the bug fixes would come in a steady stream.
Yep.
This is where I wonder if there's been a change of philosophy at Siglent re bug fixes.
In recent times they've been reasonably fast at fixing significant bugs and even addition of new functionality, some of which has been asked for from this forum.
X-E seems different, maybe it's the new processor platform or some attempt to get ALL known bugs fixed in one foul sweep. The latter I presume IMO as some of the last that have been identified seem to correlate to the FW release date being pushed further out.

Quote
There is always risk of introducing new bugs whenever alterations are made.  What matters is the rate of bug production versus the rate of fixes.  As long as the latter outpaces the former, all is good.  It's when the former outpaces the latter that it's time to stop development altogether and do a ground-up rewrite (since those conditions usually arise as a result of the complexity of the software growing to an unmanageable state).
Yep, we've seen this too.

Nearly 2 years back the SDS2000 series original FW was dropped and a V2 released that had a much better GUI and an unexpected benefit was the increase in memory depth from 28 Mpts to 70 Mpts with V2 FW.
The V2 FW GUI is now the standard GUI across all the X series models.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 11:44:48 pm by tautech »
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #179 on: June 29, 2017, 10:35:13 am »
It's interesting to watch the double standard unfolding in this thread after all the mean things that were said by certain people about the DS1054Z's minor/obscure bugs. The DS1054Z never had any bugs in basic things like triggering.

I'm sure people wouldn't be saying "Oh, let's wait, they might fix that soon" if this was an OWON or a Hantech. They'd be saying "those things are garbage, send it back and buy something else".

Why is Siglent being given so much love?
 

Offline exe

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #180 on: June 29, 2017, 11:44:37 am »
the MSO7104B cost me around $9,000 and it's 'only' 4 Gsps.

I would call it progress, scopes become a commodity :). Anyway, as Fungus said, triggering is a core feature. It is the only feature I absolutely need, anything else is by far less important.

Let me say one more thing. I discovered triggering issues while using the scope normally. I just connected the scope to the signal generator. And I quickly noticed periodic "glitches" on the screen. Trying to troubleshoot I bumped into all sort of problems and spent hours trying to figure out what was the source of the problem.

That was very disappointing experience, especially because I didn't know where the problem is: is it a faulty scope or the signal generator? Which one should I send back?

I decided I cannot trust the scope. I need confidence. All tools have limitations, but there are limitations and uncertainties I would like not to have.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #181 on: June 29, 2017, 01:36:04 pm »
It's interesting to watch the double standard unfolding in this thread after all the mean things that were said by certain people about the DS1054Z's minor/obscure bugs.
Only interesting to brand partisans.
Quote
The DS1054Z never had any bugs in basic things like triggering.
A lot of basic functionality had issues, and triggering wasn't free from bugs -- and there are still bugs now, after a couple of years of high sales volume.

Selecting long time bases causing unresponsiveness, screensaves taking ridiculous lengths of time, there were (still are?) incorrect measurements, 'random' slowdowns and freezes...  Hardware flaws are present, too.

There are a lot of problems that may be "minor" for some usage, but make it unusable for other applications.
Quote
Why is Siglent being given so much love?
Why do you perceive this to be the case?  Pointing out bugs or issues (some similar to those with the Rigol) and complaining about the lack of a firmware update don't seem any different to what happens with any 'scope that has such issues.  This seems to be most of them, today (including the expensive brands).

Recall that your principal excuse for the performance issues and bugs in the Rigol was cost: that you shouldn't expect a US$400 'scope to operate as well as a much more expensive one.  That isn't unreasonable, provided basic functionality is available.  This Siglent has more processing power, so should be capable of doing better than the Rigol -- but there are obvious bugs that need to be corrected.

I don't see any significant difference in reaction.

(From the end user perspective, I only care about the Siglent bugs, as that is what I bought.  More generally, there is no real reason that firmware cannot be written correctly for any instrument.)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #182 on: June 29, 2017, 02:43:41 pm »
Recall that your principal excuse for the performance issues and bugs in the Rigol was cost: that you shouldn't expect a US$400 'scope to operate as well as a much more expensive one.  That isn't unreasonable, provided basic functionality is available.

Not quite. The principle excuse isn't the final price, it's the value for money. Bang per buck.

Take a step back and look at what you're getting for your money: 4 channels, 100 Mhz, etc.

You can overlook a lot of flaws when you see it from that perspective, especially when there's no real alternatives without spending 2-3x more.

This Siglent has more processing power, so should be capable of doing better than the Rigol -- but there are obvious bugs that need to be corrected.

I don't see any significant difference in reaction.

The difference is:

a) The people who bashed the Rigol to death for sport are mysteriously absent here
and
b) There's now other choices for the same money (which wasn't true for much of the Rigol's existence).

 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #183 on: June 30, 2017, 12:25:45 pm »
a) The people who bashed the Rigol to death for sport are mysteriously absent here
Perhaps they care less about cheap 'scopes now as there are more of them available.

There are always going to be some people for whom a lesser quality instrument is considered beneath them.  Gear snobs, essentially.  However there are also people who will -- correctly -- point out the significant flaws that some cheap products have, and note that you can't really consider a product with a lot of limitations as being equivalent to a much more expensive but more capable product.

Quote
b) There's now other choices for the same money (which wasn't true for much of the Rigol's existence).
Until the GW Instek GDS 1054B came out there wasn't another four-channel model in the same space.  Given that this Siglent isn't four channel I'm not sure what your complaint is here.

Lack of more general criticism for the Siglent?  Some people choosing it despite it only having two channels?  The Rigol has had a large number of firmware updates, and is possibly as good as it is ever going to get now, so it is a 'mature' product.  If anything, that should give it an advantage over a new-to-market model with a lot of as yet unaddressed bugs -- including some that appear to be serious.

 :-//
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #184 on: June 30, 2017, 12:54:15 pm »
I'm not sure what your complaint is here.

Not a complaint, just an observation.
 

Online rstofer

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #185 on: June 30, 2017, 01:14:24 pm »

There are always going to be some people for whom a lesser quality instrument is considered beneath them.  Gear snobs, essentially.  However there are also people who will -- correctly -- point out the significant flaws that some cheap products have, and note that you can't really consider a product with a lot of limitations as being equivalent to a much more expensive but more capable product.


It is still fair to compare scopes because there is a concept like "good enough".  It should be expected that a $400 scope won't perform like a $200k scope or even a $2k scope.  But it still might be "good enough" for the application.

Each user needs to look at their needs and decide what is "good enough".  I might seriously consider adding the SDS1202X-E to the mix IF they ever get their firmware squared away.  Bugs for boundary uses don't concern me, failing to trigger probably does.  But I will give them the same chance we all gave Rigol.  It took a few iterations to get most of the bugs out and I suspect the same will be true for Siglent.  If they are taking this entry level market seriously, they need to jump all over the bugs.  I am hoping they will.

A 200 MHz scope has more bandwidth than a 100 MHz scope and bandwidth is everything!  Except channels...
 
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Offline JPortici

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #186 on: June 30, 2017, 02:03:17 pm »
A 200 MHz scope has more bandwidth than a 100 MHz scope and bandwidth is everything!  Except channels...

AND samplerate.
I like 200 MHz but i think it will be more harm than good if you probe fast signals... such as MCU pins :(
my 1054z wobbles a lot when probing PIC32MZ pins
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #187 on: July 01, 2017, 05:22:49 am »
A 200 MHz scope has more bandwidth than a 100 MHz scope and bandwidth is everything!  Except channels...
AND samplerate.
1 GSa/s is just adequate for two channels at 200 MHz bandwidth, or four at 100 MHz, if the sampling is 'shared' across channels.  If Siglent produce a four-channel variant of the SDS 1202X-E then they would have to put a faster sampling part in or reduce the bandwidth.  (Or, potentially, offer 200 MHz for one or two channels, then reduce this to 100 MHz for three or four active channels.)

Quote
I like 200 MHz but i think it will be more harm than good if you probe fast signals... such as MCU pins :(
my 1054z wobbles a lot when probing PIC32MZ pins
This is likely to be due to other sources of noise, rather than the 'scope.  Use the bandwidth limitation option, if appropriate.  Consider buying a better quality probe (or buy / build something special purpose if this is something you use the 'scope for a lot).  You may even find that the simple act of repositioning or reorienting the device that you're probing has a significant effect.
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #188 on: July 01, 2017, 12:03:48 pm »
The new scope arrived and first impressions are very good, the fan is a little noisy but the UI is very responsive and I can't seem to recreate the triggering issue.  I've included a couple of pictures, the first of which shows the software and FPGA versions.

I have a quick question about the PP215 probes; how do you get the hook tip off?  I pulled at mine but it doesn't come off and I'm worried that I'll break it if I pull too hard.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

Offline TK

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #189 on: July 01, 2017, 02:36:35 pm »
Hold the probe and push the tip with your thumb
 

Offline stj

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #190 on: July 01, 2017, 03:36:38 pm »
you have to wonder what would happen if Siglent (or Rigol) made the software open-source!!

it worked well for routers and phones.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #191 on: July 01, 2017, 04:56:13 pm »
you have to wonder what would happen if Siglent (or Rigol) made the software open-source!!

it worked well for routers and phones.

I'm not sure what you mean. I can hardly think of of a router or a phone that has opensource firmware released by the manufacturer. Most routers were hacked, same for phones. So, if it runs, say lineage os (ex cyanogenmod) it's not because of the manufacturer (except, may be, OnePlus). It's because somebody put a lot of efforts to make it supported.

Sometimes manufacturers release kernel sources, but that's because it's not a big deal for them as most phones / routers are based on standard chipsets (but this is very hard port kernel to a specific device without access to the design docs). Kernel source is absolutely not the same as a complete firmware. Again, few companies ever done this.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #192 on: July 01, 2017, 05:07:15 pm »
I can't seem to recreate the triggering issue.

Of course :). By the nature of the problem I have no doubts it works well on square waves. The problem is much more complex than this.

Long tale short, try using a sine wave 10+Mhz, set low V/div (high sensitivity) and play with triggering coupling and level.
 

Offline stj

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #193 on: July 01, 2017, 05:15:49 pm »
most router makers provide the source - you have to dig a bit to find it.
it's a legal requirement because it's usually based on open-source stuff to begin with.

similar with chinese fones - the korean company's dont give a damn (yet)
 

Offline exe

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #194 on: July 01, 2017, 06:01:30 pm »
most router makers provide the source - you have to dig a bit to find it.
it's a legal requirement because it's usually based on open-source stuff to begin with.

similar with chinese fones - the korean company's dont give a damn (yet)

Concerning legal requirements, there are many ways around (like, adding proprietary kernel modules, separate firmware for wifi/dsl chips, tivoization, etc). That's why only a limited set of routers have alternative firmware available. Again, this is my experience. I just go to the supermarket and check on openwrt.org. Most devices are not supported because no useful sources available for some popular chipset, most notably from broadcom (last time I checked about two years ago). For example, try to buy a DSL-router that has alternative firmware (afaik, there is only one such device).

Phones... Well, no phone I wanted to buy had useful sources (e.g., xiaomi). But now I see the situation has change a bit. That's good. And, as you said, Korean manufactures are more friendly than, e.g., Sony or most of Chinese companies.
 

Offline stj

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #195 on: July 01, 2017, 06:19:31 pm »
nothing wrong with xiaomi - my main and favourite fone is a Mi4  :-+
and there is bucketloads of custom firmware for it.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #196 on: July 01, 2017, 06:40:20 pm »
nothing wrong with xiaomi - my main and favourite fone is a Mi4  :-+
and there is bucketloads of custom firmware for it.

They usually release kernel sources like 5-6 months after release. And not always for all components. For example, no drivers for fingerprint sensor on mi4s (I used to have one). Concerning "bucketloads of firmware", I don't trust any of them as they usually come from random persons without sources and building procedure. Seriously, I don't understand why people trust such builds.

Okay, here I wanted to state that, for example, mi5s does not have kernel sources. But, damn, they released a few days ago :). That's good, I may buy this phone.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #197 on: July 01, 2017, 08:09:41 pm »
The new scope arrived and first impressions are very good, the fan is a little noisy but the UI is very responsive and I can't seem to recreate the triggering issue.  I've included a couple of pictures, the first of which shows the software and FPGA versions.
They are not whisper quiet........remember you have a 200 MHz scope with a fast processor in quite a small package so there needs to be some airflow to keep the engine room cool.  ;)
Using the blue Print button will save a small (less than 50kb) file to a USB stick which is quick to upload here and fast for anybody to download or view. Large camera pics are a PITA.

Quote
I have a quick question about the PP215 probes; how do you get the hook tip off?  I pulled at mine but it doesn't come off and I'm worried that I'll break it if I pull too hard.
Yep, they do hold on well, better than anything else I've come across. Be sure to pull them straight and they'll come off. Once you know how much force it takes you'll be confident for tip removal. On refitting be sure to push until you hear the click.
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #198 on: July 01, 2017, 11:35:10 pm »
I made the pictures 50% size on X and Y axes meaning that they are a quarter the size that they started off.  Sorry if the <1 Meg files are using up all y'all's bandwidth.

[Edit] I gave the hook-tips a good tug and see what happens they came off.

openwrt is an awesome OS for routers, I upgraded a Buffalo wireless router about 4 years ago and it won't crash or die, it used to lock up twice per week.

[Edit] changed ddwrt to openwrt, seems the former has become a business, the latter is an awesome free OS for wireless access points but you need to make sure you buy an access point/router that's in their (extensive) list.

I seem to remember that someone said that the SDS1202X-E didn't have 50 Ohm terminations built in but I can't find where; I haven't tested it yet but it's there in the UI so I assume it does - I found it right after I ordered 2 x 50 ohm BNC feed thrus although the ones I ordered are rated at 2W so I will probably keep them.

As my first picture shows, mine came with software Vn 5.1.3.8 and I don't see any downloads for SDS1202X-E firmware on their website - I'm curious, does everyone have the same version as me right now?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:44:02 am by Gandalf_Sr »
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Offline exe

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E
« Reply #199 on: July 02, 2017, 07:15:16 pm »
make sure you buy an access point/router that's in their (extensive) list.

Lovely software, indeed. But the "list of devices" includes old, obsolete and partially supported and unsupported devices. Also, many routers come in different "revisions" (really can be completely different devices). I would suggest just buy a "community approved" router with a big user base. This is the safest option, imho (just not always possible due to regional availability).

I seem to remember that someone said that the SDS1202X-E didn't have 50 Ohm terminations built in but I can't find where; I haven't tested it yet but it's there in the UI so I assume it does

Only expensive scopes have this option (so far). So, no, it does not have it. You would hear a relay click if it had it. Still, this option is useful for correct measurements as it tells the type of termination. Like, my signal generator also have option "50Ohm / Hi impedance", but this option does nothing but corrects displayed signal amplitude.

PS I don't see any pictures you mentioned. Did I miss something?
 


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