Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope

[hexpope]

Just got a shipping update, will have it in about 2 weeks time 

Two weeks ? Is the unit actually not released yet ? or backlog ? Or are they shipping it by snail mail ?

They will receive the stock in a week, then another week for shipping/customs. Got it from Tequipment.

Thanks for letting me know.   

[marmad]

@marmad,

Now that sounds like the best customer service you can receive. I must bookmark that site for friends and future needs.

Thanks

No problem. People often complain about Rigol's customer service and responsiveness - and often for good cause, since they can be shit at it. But the best way to bypass that possible problem is to buy from a dealer that is quick, responsive, and committed (and being a great guy doesn't hurt either ) .

[Fungus]

If Allied had it in stock, I would have ordered one right now - I had been itching to get a DS1047Z for personal use for many months and was planning to buy one by the end of the week (I almost checked out on Allied an hour ago) before I read this.

Me too. I was just checking the bank account and checking out the DS1047Z whan I saw this. I'd have been very upset if it appeared right after I paid for a S1047Z (like I said, I don't _really_ need the bandwidth, it's the 4 channels I'm after).

[Fungus]

@marmad,

Now that sounds like the best customer service you can receive. I must bookmark that site for friends and future needs.

Thanks

No problem. People often complain about Rigol's customer service and responsiveness - and often for good cause, since they can be shit at it. But the best way to bypass that possible problem is to buy from a dealer that is quick, responsive, and committed (and being a great guy doesn't hurt either ) .

Might have to check him out....

[DanielS]

Me too. I was just checking the bank account and checking out the DS1047Z whan I saw this. I'd have been very upset if it appeared right after I paid for a S1047Z (like I said, I don't _really_ need the bandwidth, it's the 4 channels I'm after).

Hehe, much the same here. Even 20MHz would be enough for 99% of what I do on a regular basis - mainly troubleshooting power-related issues - and four channels makes monitoring multi-rail devices for potentially correlated glitches a heck of a lot more convenient.

For the remaining 1% of what I want to do, scopes generally fall in the "if you need to ask for the price, you cannot afford it" range.

[Fungus]

What's going to happen to the DS1052E?

There's now only 60 Euros difference between a DS1052E and a DS1054Z. Who's going to go for the old 2-channel 'scope with smaller screen and less functions?

I expect to see people dumping them real soon.

PS: Anybody got hold of a DS1054Z yet...?

[eas]

released yesterday September the 15th the 50MHz verison DS1054Z
this model will not come with FG integrated (S versione) and neither MSO
Euro price 299

http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z

 

Heh. That thing was listed on TEquipment for a few days when I was shopping for my scope, and then, suddenly, it disappeared. I'm guessing it is back now.

[gmit77]

released yesterday September the 15th the 50MHz verison DS1054Z
this model will not come with FG integrated (S versione) and neither MSO
Euro price 299

http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z

 

Heh. That thing was listed on TEquipment for a few days when I was shopping for my scope, and then, suddenly, it disappeared. I'm guessing it is back now.

ciao, yes it happens when you generate a new page, you activate it for few second just to check it and immediately disable till the official release day.

[leppie]

released yesterday September the 15th the 50MHz verison DS1054Z
this model will not come with FG integrated (S versione) and neither MSO
Euro price 299

http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z

 

Heh. That thing was listed on TEquipment for a few days when I was shopping for my scope, and then, suddenly, it disappeared. I'm guessing it is back now.

ciao, yes it happens when you generate a new page, you activate it for few second just to check it and immediately disable till the official release day.

You can still access it, it is just not linked to any other pages. I guess they are waiting for when the stock arrives. I already ordered, and they estimate shipping on the 24th, so I guess it will show up then again.

[Mark_O]

What's going to happen to the DS1052E?

There's now only 60 Euros difference between a DS1052E and a DS1054Z. Who's going to go for the old 2-channel 'scope with smaller screen and less functions?

- someone who doesn't have the extra 60 Euros to spare

- someone taking advantage of new clearance pricing on the 1052E (likely forthcoming)

- someone wanting 25 GSa/s ETS

- someone wanting dual-timebases (alternate channel triggering)

- someone wanting 100 MHz BW  (the 1052E is easily hacked)

- someone wanting to talk to it over RS232

- someone annoyed with having all those extra channels on the Z "in the way"  <grin>

That's all I could think of, off the top of my head.  There may be others.

[gmit77]

DS1054Z available in stock right now!

[marmad]

- someone wanting dual-timebases (alternate channel triggering)

Just to point out: I've mentioned a few times that the Delay trigger on the Rigol works perfectly fine as alternate channel triggering - though granted, it's an 'Option' on the UltraVision DSOs.

[Mandragora]

What's going to happen to the DS1052E?

There's now only 60 Euros difference between a DS1052E and a DS1054Z. Who's going to go for the old 2-channel 'scope with smaller screen and less functions?

- someone who doesn't have the extra 60 Euros to spare

- someone taking advantage of new clearance pricing on the 1052E (likely forthcoming)

- someone wanting 25 GSa/s ETS

- someone wanting dual-timebases (alternate channel triggering)

- someone wanting 100 MHz BW  (the 1052E is easily hacked)

- someone wanting to talk to it over RS232

- someone annoyed with having all those extra channels on the Z "in the way"  <grin>

That's all I could think of, off the top of my head.  There may be others.

After Your post I started searching about real time sampling and equivalent time sampling and this is what I found.
http://www.tek.com/document/application-note/real-time-versus-equivalent-time-sampling

Conclusion is that RTS is way better than ETS, ETS is used only when the real-time bandwidth is lower than the analog bandwidth.

"The TDS 620 and TDS 640 digital scopes have a 500 MHz bandwidth and 2 GS/s sample rate. Their theoretical real-time bandwidth is 2 GS/s divided by 2.5 = 800 MHz. Since the TDS 600 scopes cannot pass signals higher than 500 MHz without distorting them, their real-time bandwidth equals their analog bandwidth. Because the two bandwidths are the same, these scopes can easily acquire signals in real-time up to the analog bandwidth of the scope. Digital scopes only require equivalent-time sampling when the real-time bandwidth is lower than the analog bandwidth. Since the TDS 600 scopes can acquire signals up to the bandwidth of the scope with one trigger event, they offer only real-time sampling."

So on DS1074Z using 2 channels (500MS/s) we get 500MS/s / 2,5S = 200M/s (200MHz) theoretical real-time bandwidth. Even on 4 channels we still get 100MHz theoretical real-time bandwidth. Even considering that Rigol scopes needs 2 times more samples to create decent result we wont go lower than 50MHz theoretical real-time bandwidth.
So there is no point in using worse method which is ETS and this is why its not pointed in DS1000Z data sheet.
So "25 GSa/s ETS" isn't something that makes DS1052E better than DS1074Z which also can be hacked.

[marmad]

So on DS1074Z using 2 channels (500MS/s) we get 500MS/s / 2,5S = 200M/s (200MHz) theoretical real-time bandwidth. Even on 4 channels we still get 100MHz theoretical real-time bandwidth. Even considering that Rigol scopes needs 2 times more samples to create decent result we wont go lower than 50MHz theoretical real-time bandwidth.
So there is no point in using worse method which is ETS and this is why its not pointed in DS1000Z data sheet.
So "25 GSa/s ETS" isn't something that makes DS1052E better than DS1074Z which also can be hacked.

There is a problem with your logic. The 4-channels-ON BW of the DS1074Z is nothing close to a usable 100MHz. Sin(x)/x interpolation is worthless because the frequencies above the Nyquist rate aren't attenuated nearly enough - which means you should really always use linear interpolation with 3 or 4 channels on, making the functionable real-time bandwidth more like 25MHz.

This 2.5x ratio is considered JUST adequate when you have very good BW frequency response. As a LeCroy document states: "SinX interpolation works very well only when this ratio is greater than 2:1 - 3:1 is a good ratio with 4:1 usually working almost perfectly."

But even then, as this Yokogawa document states, "This formula only applies to sinusoidal (single frequency) signals, which allows the instrument's sinusoidal interpolation feature to be used. For more complex signals, the sampling rate should be well over 2.5 times the highest frequency component of interest, in order to faithfully reproduce the waveshape."

In other words, you have to build a DSO to work well with linear interpolation. That's why a sampling rate of 10x the BW is the standard formula for most modern DSOs. For example, the Rigol DS2000 has a sampling rate of 2GSa/s - allowing a 200MHz maximum BW (and making their 300MHz DS2000A slightly suspect).

[tequipment]

DS1054Z We have 60 shipping 9/23.  If you are in Italy order from batterfly.  If not feel free to contact us.
Thanks
Evan Cirelli

[Fungus]

The 4-channels-ON BW of the DS1074Z is nothing close to a usable 100MHz. Sin(x)/x interpolation is worthless because the frequencies above the Nyquist rate aren't attenuated nearly enough - meaning you should always use linear interpolation with 3 or 4 channels on, making the functionable real-time bandwidth more like 25MHz.

So .... the "50MHz" version will work just as well as the "100MHz" version with all 4 channels on?

[tequipment]

We have them coming in 7 days. Buy from someone who knows product and knows Rigol!

[Mark_O]

The 4-channels-ON BW of the DS1074Z is nothing close to a usable 100MHz. Sin(x)/x interpolation is worthless because the frequencies above the Nyquist rate aren't attenuated nearly enough - meaning you should always use linear interpolation with 3 or 4 channels on, making the functionable real-time bandwidth more like 25MHz.

So .... the "50MHz" version will work just as well as the "100MHz" version with all 4 channels on?

Maybe better.  Actual response of a 100 MHz 1000Z is down -3 dB around 130 MHz, and extends well past that, with significant detection.  With 3 or 4-channels on, sampling at its max of 250 MHz, higher frequencies that may exist in your circuit will not be attenuated enough, resulting in spurious aliases. 

The key there is not to use sinx/x, and stick to linear interpolation.  Unless you enjoy chasing ghosts.  I believe the 1000Z does have the option to disable sinx/x interpolation.  Which is good, as long as you remember to use it when necessary.

[DanielS]

So on DS1074Z using 2 channels (500MS/s) we get 500MS/s / 2,5S = 200M/s (200MHz) theoretical real-time bandwidth. Even on 4 channels we still get 100MHz theoretical real-time bandwidth. Even considering that Rigol scopes needs 2 times more samples to create decent result we wont go lower than 50MHz theoretical real-time bandwidth.

The problem with sampling waveforms at rates  barely above Nyquist is that near your maximum input frequency, you barely manage to capture two points per cycle which is not much of a wave form - you cannot see any details in signal components close to that.

If you are looking at a waveform which may have important details near 100MHz, you would want 10+ samples per cycle of those details and this means you would need the DS1xxxZ's whole 1GSPS focused on a single channel to get reasonable detail. This is where an ETS can come in handy: for repetitive signals, you can fill in gaps between samples by phase/delay-shifting the trigger without needing huge sampling rates.

[Dago]

Is there a firmware update for the DS1074Z? Mine is 00.04.00.

Problem is that multiple of the math operators seem to bug. FFT took a lot of fiddling around to get it to display anything. Now I'd need the diff operator and it just brings up a trace called "FFT" that just seems to display random peaks that do not correlate with the waveform in any way.

[Fungus]

I just ordered my DS1054Z...

[tom66]

In most cases, you wouldn't need the full 70/100MHz bandwidth across four channels. Typical use case for four channels: motor drives, SPI analysis, I2C analysis + DAC output, etc. 20MHz filter can be turned on to avoid aliasing.

[kjetil_h]

Hi folks, new member here, I was going to buy a scope today (have been waiting for DS1074Z stock) but suddenly the DS1054Z showed up and had me thinking. So I signed up here to investigate. If someone could make a quick check on the DS1074Z software hacks when their DS1054Z arrives I'd be very thankful. I'll be following any updates!

[frenky]

I will also be getting the DS1054Z in the next week.
Hopefully somebody else will already try the "DSER" code. 

[DanielS]

In most cases, you wouldn't need the full 70/100MHz bandwidth across four channels. Typical use case for four channels: motor drives, SPI analysis, I2C analysis + DAC output, etc.

The least typical use I have had for high bandwidth and sampling rate was locating a nasty noise source on a PCB by putting two probes across the ground plane and measuring the time delay between the noise spikes at both locations to calculate the source's distance from the probes. Turned out it was a driver conflict between my FPGA and an external bidirectional buffer - the FPGA was switching from in to out faster than the external chip could so I had to tweak timings a little further to fix my ground/power bounce issue.