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Is the Rigol DS1074Z a good choice for someone that is new to Oscilloscopes?

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Author Topic: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope  (Read 97120 times)

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Offline alank2

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #175 on: October 16, 2014, 03:10:05 pm »
I've asked the same question to the Rigol official support and they told me it is not possible. :--

It is possible allright, they just have to change their software...
 

Offline mauroh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #176 on: October 16, 2014, 03:16:28 pm »
I've asked the same question to the Rigol official support and they told me it is not possible. :--

It is possible allright, they just have to change their software...

Actually the answer was something like "NO because the XY mode is gathered from what is displayed on the YT plot"  :-//

Mauro

Offline bassdrum

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #177 on: October 21, 2014, 02:58:53 am »
I never got this thing of double packing...
once in the department we bought 10 DS4024... we unpacked them... and unpacked them again due to the double box... -_-

it seems they make a matrioska game :D

I do installations and service for an ophthalmic equipment supplier. Most of the table-top instruments are packed in a fitted, solid styrofoam support in an inner box, which is suspended on all 8 corners by 1" foam supports inside the outer box. The outer box is sometimes gouged or crushed on a corner, but I've never in 12 years seen an instrument damaged.  I've also never seen direct cardboard to cardboard double boxing either, but I suspect it is only to stiffen the box.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #178 on: October 21, 2014, 01:11:33 pm »
I've also never seen direct cardboard to cardboard double boxing either, but I suspect it is only to stiffen the box.

I have, and that's not the only reason.  The second layer of boxing protects the outside of the product box.  Sometimes purchasers appreciate this, but mostly it enables the product to be returned, and still have an undamaged original box.  Thus it can be shipped out again (with new labels, markings, etc.) just reusing or replacing the outer box.  The inner product box is still "new".
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #179 on: October 23, 2014, 11:53:23 am »
For those interested, I compared the High Res mode of DS1000Z and DS2000 - and there at least three big differences in the implementation:

1) High Res can not be applied to a captured waveform (stopped DSO) on the DS1000Z; you can only use it when running.

2) High Res on the DS1000Z is destructive, as opposed to the DS2000 - i.e. the original samples are lost. As seen in the set of test images below made with a 10MHz, 2.5Vpp sine wave acquired in High Res and then stopped (images labelled STOP) - on the DS2000, you can turn High Res back OFF (or ON) after capturing a waveform - removing or applying the filter at will. On the DS1000Z, once the DSO is stopped, you can't recover the original waveform. This might explain the extra 32Mx16 DRAM (beyond sample memory + 8M) that the DS2000 (96Mx16 DRAM) has over the DS1000Z (32Mx16 DRAM).

3) Most importantly: on the DS1000Z, High Res mode appears to be implemented after display decimation - or at least, in some kind of incorrect combination with decimation - resulting in some aliasing and other funky artifacts. As already seen in the previous images, the High Res'ed 10MHz sine wave produces aliasing on the DS1000Z - when it should just be around -18dB, as seen on the DS2000.

12-bit high-resolution requires averaging every 256 samples together, resulting in a low pass filter - with nulls (0V valleys) at the sample rate / 256 (and harmonics). One of those harmonics is 15.625MHz, shown at a vertical scale of 2mV/div on the DS1000Z and DS2000 below. Also shown is the previous 10MHz sine wave at 2mV/div vertical scale on the DS1000Z.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 09:18:33 pm by marmad »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #180 on: October 23, 2014, 07:41:01 pm »
Well, having had a chance to play around with it some more, I'd say that High Res mode doesn't actually work (correctly) on the DS1000Z - or, at the very least, it's not really useful. I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned before, but perhaps it's been broken in the latest FW revision (I'll report it to Drieg to relay to Rigol).

One last example - a full screen of >25MHz, 3Vpp noise magnified to 100mV/div - first in Normal mode, then High Res - on DS1000Z, then DS2000  (note: the DS2000 has double the sample rate @ 2ms/div, but the results are the same for it's timebases down to at least 1s/div - I didn't bother checking past there).

« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 07:48:34 pm by marmad »
 

Offline SharpEars

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #181 on: October 23, 2014, 08:20:56 pm »
Well, having had a chance to play around with it some more, I'd say that High Res mode doesn't actually work (correctly) on the DS1000Z - or, at the very least, it's not really useful. I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned before, but perhaps it's been broken in the latest FW revision (I'll report it to Drieg to relay to Rigol).

One last example - a full screen of >25MHz, 3Vpp noise magnified to 100mV/div - first in Normal mode, then High Res - on DS1000Z, then DS2000  (note: the DS2000 has double the sample rate @ 2ms/div, but the results are the same for it's timebases down to at least 1s/div - I didn't bother checking past there).

Why are all your DS2000 hi-res images from the last two posts, except for one image, a plain horizontal line?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 08:25:50 pm by SharpEars »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #182 on: October 23, 2014, 08:44:30 pm »
Why are all your DS2000 hi-res images a plain horizontal line?

The High Res Mode on DSOs does averaging on the sampled data. Unlike the Average Mode, which does successive capture (i.e. waveform) averaging, the High Res Mode does successive sample averaging - adding together consecutive input sample points to get a single output (display) point - to remove noise and improve the apparent resolution.

As a rule of thumb, 1 bit of resolution improvement may be achieved for each factor of four in samples (e.g. averaging by 64 would improve resolution by about 3 bits; by 256 improves resolution by about 4 bits, etc). But the trade-off for increased resolution is bandwidth: correct successive sample averaging acts like a low pass filter - with null points that are at the frequency of (sample rate/samples averaged) and its harmonics. The LPF function it applies has a -3dB point approximated by the formula 0.433*(s/N), where s = sample rate and N = number of samples averaged.

So to answer your original question: High Res on the DS2000 is working correctly, filtering out the high frequency signals I send it and displaying an amplitude of 0V (or close). Doing 12 bit High Res mode at a sample rate of 1GSa/s or slower should attenuate everything above 10MHz by at least -18dB.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 09:08:01 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Rosendorfer

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #183 on: October 23, 2014, 11:51:31 pm »
Hi Marmad

Thank's for looking at HiRes modes of DS2000 vs DS1000Z series, this is actually pretty interesting and seldom being done or look during most "reviews". 
Your tests are even more interesting for me as after playing with my DS1104Z at HiRes mode I get feeling that is is acting bit "strange". But while I do not have experience with other scopes couldn’t tell if that is the problem with implementation of HiRes in DS1000Z or it is just the way HiRes is working. So Your comparison with DS2000 is very interesting.
Could You do bit more comparison of HiRes modes, including Noise Test but with lower frequency, so HiRes engine could actually show how it is handling noise signal, just practical case where HiRes should give different results from Averaging.
And also I very much would like to see how HiRes is working with FFT at DS2000 as per my experiments HiRes FFT's done at DS1104Z  are rather far from 14 or even 12 bits FFT's so if You could run some HiRes FFT's of few sinewaves on both scopes would be great.

Rosendorfer
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #184 on: October 24, 2014, 07:21:42 pm »
Thank's for looking at HiRes modes of DS2000 vs DS1000Z series, this is actually pretty interesting and seldom being done or look during most "reviews".
You're welcome.  :)

Quote
Your tests are even more interesting for me as after playing with my DS1104Z at HiRes mode I get feeling that is is acting bit "strange". But while I do not have experience with other scopes couldn’t tell if that is the problem with implementation of HiRes in DS1000Z or it is just the way HiRes is working.
No, there are definitely some strange things going on with the implementation on the DS1000Z. The DS2000 follows the mathematical model of successive sample averaging quite well, while the DS1000Z seems to be doing things poorly in comparison.

It's not clear exactly when/how well it works for each possible memory depth setting - the 12k and 120k setting seem to do some averaging in the us/div range, while the 1.2M and higher settings seem to do almost nothing unless in the ms/div and slower ranges (perhaps higher memory depths overwhelm the ability of the engine to keep up unless at slower sample rates). There also seems to be a problem with higher frequencies leaking past the stopband sometimes, as shown by the alias of the 10MHz sine in my previous images (and in the image of the sweep roll-off @ 12k below).

One thing I wanted to mention: I really think the name "High Resolution" is a bit of a misnomer. You won't all of a sudden get more pixels on your DSO display, or a more detailed vertical scale - the results of the averaging still have to be downsampled again for display memory. So it really should just be called "Sample Average" to avoid confusion (with normal Average renamed to "Waveform Average").

It's basically just a low pass filter with a sharp roll-off to a null, then subsequent peaks and nulls through the stopband (as shown in my previously posted image). To better illustrate this, I sent a repeated sine sweep pattern to my DS2000 in Normal mode:




When I turn on High Res (@ 1.4M), you see the sweep BW roll-off, just as you should:




When I switch the memory depth to 14k, the roll-off gets sharper because of the lower sample rate (thus lower bandwidth):




Here is the same signal to the MSO1000Z:




When I turn on High Res (@ 12M), there is very little change:




When I switch the memory depth to 120k, there is a roll-off, but fairly gentle:




When I switch the memory depth to 12k, there is a sharper roll-off, but then a rise again - almost like a notch filter:




Quote
Could You do bit more comparison of HiRes modes, including Noise Test but with lower frequency, so HiRes engine could actually show how it is handling noise signal, just practical case where HiRes should give different results from Averaging.
Average mode is good for removing non-repetitive noise - no bandwidth is lost, but the trade-off is some throughput (wfrm/s).
High Res mode is good for removing both repetitive and non-repetitive noise - no (or little) throughput is lost, but the trade-off is quite a bit of bandwidth (depending on desired bits of resolution).

Here's a link for a good .PDF document describing the two types of averaging.

It's hard to get/make a perfect example to demonstrate, but here is a 500Hz sine wave w/repeating high frequency spikes, in Normal mode, Average mode, and then High Res - which recovers the original sine wave fairly well:










And here is a sine wave FFT - in Normal, then High Res/Deep memory (then High Res/Low memory on DS1000Z):














« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 09:22:51 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Rosendorfer

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #185 on: October 24, 2014, 11:22:18 pm »
Hi Marmad

First thanks for finding time for doing this , very much apreciated !

DS1004Z is still very nice little scope with plenty of features but...

For now, looks like HiRes mode on DS1000Z is rather marketing feature to put on the box, than real thing.

Looking forward to more of Your tests and hopefully review of  DS1054Z.

Have a look at 53000 or even 63000 wfms/s @ 50ns in dot mode at this litle scope.

Rosendorfer
   
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #186 on: October 25, 2014, 03:05:21 pm »
For now, looks like HiRes mode on DS1000Z is rather marketing feature to put on the box, than real thing.

Well, this at least explains why the specs for a DS2000A list:

"High Resolution: 12 bits of resolution when >=5 us/div @ 1 GSa/s (or >=10 us/div @ 500 MSa/s).

And the specs for a DS1000Z list:

"High Resolution: 12 bit (max)"

In other words, it does do 12 bits of resolution when you hit just the right magical combination of sample rate and memory depth (I'm guessing one of the very slow timebases, although I haven't found it yet).  ;D

Quote
Looking forward to more of Your tests and hopefully review of  DS1054Z.

Well, I have an MSO1074Z, so I will definitely be doing a review of the LA part, although I'm not sure about the rest of it.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 03:11:25 pm by marmad »
 

Online pascal_sweden

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #187 on: October 25, 2014, 04:14:51 pm »
Well, I have an MSO1074Z, so I will definitely be doing a review of the LA part, although I'm not sure about the rest of it.
Keep up the good work! Look forward to the LA part review on YouTube :) Drop us a note when the video is online.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 04:25:52 pm by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #188 on: October 25, 2014, 06:07:23 pm »
 

Offline bassdrum

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #189 on: October 28, 2014, 02:01:33 am »
I bought my MSO1074Z a month ago and have recently been trying to unlock the trial versions. I've tried the gotroot generator and every code it kicks out has been rejected as an invalid license.  I've tried 1.03c and d, and even pulled the MSO private key out of their July patch as my SN starts DS1ZC (not DS1ZD as shown in the patch). I'm running FW 4.00.

Any ideas?

 

Offline frostheave

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #190 on: December 30, 2014, 04:14:30 pm »
Yesterday I received a new DS1074Z from TEquipment.net.  I did the activation code DSER and it worked no problem.  My question is, can I upgrade to the latest firmware?  Currently the scope is version 00.04.01.SP2 and Board 0.1.1.  Thanks for your help!
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #191 on: January 01, 2015, 03:46:44 am »
Yesterday I received a new DS1074Z from TEquipment.net.  I did the activation code DSER and it worked no problem.  My question is, can I upgrade to the latest firmware?  Currently the scope is version 00.04.01.SP2 and Board 0.1.1.  Thanks for your help!
Go to www.rigolna.com, go to the Tech Support page, then click on the firmware request page (link in last paragraph of text). Click Request firmware at the bottom of the page (latest revisions will display, fill it out, and submit).

It's convoluted, but that's what they have set up.  :(
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #192 on: January 01, 2015, 04:01:14 am »
Bit of an update on the firmware: Rigol posted a direct link to the latest version (source).
 


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