Author Topic: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos  (Read 41532 times)

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Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2013, 02:36:08 am »
iDevice, nicely done first post.   :-+  Welcome.

RS-232 trigger is set to the start bit to be sure to have the start of the frame at the left of the screen.

This is important as the decoders are starting to decode on what they "see" on the screen, so if for instance you have half a frame cut out of the screen, the decoder will start to try to decode from the first high bit (start bit) it thinks it sees, leading to evident decoding errors for the rest of what is on screen.

This is why it is uttermost important that the rs232 trigger is set correctly.   The accuracy of the decoding is tied to proper triggering and positioning of the frames on screen.

This is a good point to remember.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2013, 02:51:54 am »
If you set the Decode Polarity to match the data being monitored and select LSB, it should all work for you.
I would also suggest that you have the trigger position at the left of the screen and in Normal mode.

Yep, you have it correct as well.  It would be a bit easier to see the alignment between the signal voltage and the decoded byte frames if you zoomed in a little (not so many frames on screen).  In particular, zooming on the "1" would be instructive, since it's NOT symmetric.

EF still has his settings wrong, but is managing to get "U" anyway, due solely to the symmetry.  If he used a different character, he wouldn't be so lucky.  ;)  I've been telling him that for 3 pages now  |O but he doesn't seem interested.  :D
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2013, 03:05:22 am »
What it [DS2000] can do is analyze the difference between segments based on a template and provide a histogramatic result. Is this feature lacking in the DS1000Z series (assuming you have the REC option)?

In addition to omitting the post-acquisition Analyze function, the 1000Z also lacks the Time Tag for each frame, and cannot run in Open or Continuous mode (i.e., wraparound captures).  [As always... according to the manual, since I don't have a unit here.]

The reason I keep bringing up the manual proviso is because Rigol frequently gets things wrong there.   :o  One very obvious example is the 1000Z SPI decode chapter, which they obviously copied out of the DS2000 manual (2-channel limited), rather than the DS4000 (4-channel option).  And both of them refer to SCL and SDA signals, which is more appropriate to I2C than SPI.  :(

Not only is this lame, but it's very confusing to beginners, who don't know what they're doing yet, and will be baffled temporarily.  Even when you DO know what you're doing, it leads to a  :wtf: moment while reading the documents.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Decoding: Rock & Roll
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2013, 03:20:11 am »
...check out the attached photo.

All done with LSB and overall consistent decoder settings on Decode1 and Decode2.

I think the decoder pads the front of the ASCII code with a 0; the ASCII table says a capital U is 1010101

Likewise the ASCII table specifies that a capital U is 85 in Decimal and 55 in HEX.

The only reason it looks like it's working is due to your choice of "U", and the bitwise symmetry it possesses.  You still have the Polarity set wrong.  Check out seronday to see the proper setting.  Just change to a different character in Hyperterm and watch it fall apart before your eyes.  :D

As for "I think the decoder pads the front of the ASCII code with a 0; the ASCII table says a capital U is 1010101", the decoder isn't padding anything.  The leading 0 is there.  The problem is that you're using a 7-bit only ASCII table, which drops the 0 bit from the front of each code.  Then getting yourself confused when the first bit you see isn't a 1-bit.   :scared:   :palm:
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:22:10 am by Mark_O »
 

Online Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2013, 04:45:05 am »
If you set the Decode Polarity to match the data being monitored and select LSB, it should all work for you.
I would also suggest that you have the trigger position at the left of the screen and in Normal mode.

Yep, you have it correct as well.  It would be a bit easier to see the alignment between the signal voltage and the decoded byte frames if you zoomed in a little (not so many frames on screen).  In particular, zooming on the "1" would be instructive, since it's NOT symmetric.

EF still has his settings wrong, but is managing to get "U" anyway, due solely to the symmetry.  [color=blue]If he used a different character, he wouldn't be so lucky.  ;)[/color]   I've been telling him that for 3 pages now  |O but he doesn't seem interested.  :D

I don't know why a teacher would call his students lucky but I'm ok with it if you take credit for any luck.
Enjoy the the non-U characters  :-DD
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2013, 10:04:11 am »
One problem that is recurring here is the lack of defined sync'ing points.  It's not possible to lock on to the data in mid stream.  The attachments are all mid stream.

UARTs rely on a START-STOP pairing, everything in between is assumed to fit, but these two bits look no different to any other bits in the stream.  The way the UARTs sync up for a byte frame is by having a dead period of continuous idling STOP bits.  If this idle is longer than a frame then there is no further chance the receiving end can miss a START bit when it comes.

After this they can sustain a long burst of back to back frames with no gaps.  But all frames still consist of a START and STOP pair.


PS:  It would seem I was wrong about polarity.  RS232 is negative polarity at the line driver output stage, not at the intermediate logic level stage.  A STOP bit is low (logic 1) while a START bit is high (logic 0).  Wikipedia has a good diagram - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rs232_oscilloscope_trace.svg


Evan
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2013, 10:09:20 am »
RS422 and RS485 are non-inverting, in that the +line is high when representing a one and low when representing a zero.
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2013, 10:27:31 am »
iDevice, nicely done first post.   :-+  Welcome.

Thanks, I've been lurking this forum for a long time but didn't have time or something sufficiently interesting to say up to now...
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2013, 10:44:14 am »
One problem that is recurring here is the lack of defined sync'ing points.  It's not possible to lock on to the data in mid stream.  The attachments are all mid stream.

Yep, that's exactly why I insisted on the fact that it is important to use the appropriate trigger for each decoder.
I had the same impression as you that Electro fan is simply using edge triggering by looking at his attachments.
As far as I discovered, there is no link between the trigger system and the decoders, so the decoders are just looking at what they see first on screen, but by using proper trigger and trigger point positioning, you can guarantee that the first frame visible is correctly interpreted by the decoder because what it sees first is the edge of the start bit.
By using edge triggering, you can achieve the same with luck and proper holdoff, but why not use the right tool...

Besides, by using protocol triggering, you can also use data pattern recognition, which is invaluable in real day to day debugging as you can trig not only on a proper frame, but also on the higher protocol level layer, like an escape sequence or on good old STX ETX codes. 
 

Online Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2013, 04:09:34 am »
Just reporting in - progess has been slow but steady (regular).  :)

Looks like everything works fine (except occasionally the operator).  |O :-DD

This scope is very cool (although I'm still wondering how much cooler the DS2000 might be).  :)

THANKS to Everyone for all the help - this is a GREAT forum/web site. :-+ :-+
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:17:04 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline creyc

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2013, 04:32:20 am »
I ordered one from Tequipment the other day. This will be my first 'real' scope!  8)

Now the long annoying waiting part...
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2013, 06:20:43 am »
Just reporting in - progess has been slow but steady (regular).  :)

Glad to hear you're not suffering from problems with irregularity.  ;)

Quote
Looks like everything works fine (except occasionally the operator).  |O :-DD

Good to hear it didn't turn out to be problems with the Rigol decoders, that you ran into on Day 1.  And your traces are looking good now.   :-+  Everything is lining up, you can see the Stop and Start bits in between (so you don't have to take my word for it that a Start bit exists), and you can see both the polarity inversion and bit-reversal.  In the process, you got to learn a lot about RS232.

Quote
This scope is very cool (although I'm still wondering how much cooler the DS2000 might be).  :)

I wouldn't dwell on it.  Most of the additional "coolness" is just slightly better performance on a few parameters.  I.e., more of the same, but a bit better.  There are a handful of things the 1000Z lacks, but you may not notice them for some time, and it's harder to miss something you never had.  I suspect you'll find yourself happy you've got a 3rd (and 4th) channel available, before you lament the missing features.
 

Online Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2013, 02:50:45 pm »

Quote
This scope is very cool (although I'm still wondering how much cooler the DS2000 might be).  :)

I wouldn't dwell on it.  Most of the additional "coolness" is just slightly better performance on a few parameters.  I.e., more of the same, but a bit better.  There are a handful of things the 1000Z lacks, but you may not notice them for some time, and it's harder to miss something you never had.  I suspect you'll find yourself happy you've got a 3rd (and 4th) channel available, before you lament the missing features.

Yep, I understand/agree for the most part - the one feature I might be missing more than the extra screen space and performance is the ease of accessibility and ease of use and possibly/probably fuller functionality/features related to record, playback, navigate, analyze.  Once you have a basic grip on what you are looking at (why it renders the way it does), then it might be nice to record it, find it, and examine it with more/better tools.  Hard to say without having a DS2000 to play with.  But, the DS1000Z is a very nice piece of equipment and I feel fortunte to have entered the market for a scope when this level of price/performance has come about.  Thanks again for all the good educational support!
 

Online Electro Fan

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Rigol DS11104Z Decoding Event Table
« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2013, 07:45:40 am »
Here are a couple photos showing the scope decoding the word "characters" which was part of a sentence made in Notepad and transmitted as a file from within HyperTerminal.  In the second photo you can see the Event Table.
 
In case anyone wants to decode RS232 but doesn't have a PC with a RS232 port handy, here is a USB to RS232 converter that seems to be working well:

http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-RS-232-Serial-Converter-TU-S9/dp/B0007T27H8

There have been some discussions about how some converters don't play nicely with PCs unless you have the right drivers.  The TRENDnet converter simply plugged into a USB port and set itself to Com 7 - no driver needed.  When I opened HyperTerminal it gave me a chance to select Com 7 and that was it.  No fuss, no muss.  YMMV.

I have a ton of feature discovery/learning remaining but so far the DS1104Z is operating very nicely.  Knock on wood.   
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 07:52:04 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2013, 10:27:13 am »
Looks like everything works fine (except occasionally the operator).  |O :-DD

Heh, you know the scope itself can do screen captures to a USB drive.  ;)


Evan
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2013, 12:44:37 pm »
Heh, you know the scope itself can do screen captures to a USB drive.  ;)

Yeah, just plug in a memory stick, and press the Printer button.  But maybe EF has a camera hookup that makes photos easier to transfer?

In any event, uploading PNGs would be 10-12 times faster, and use 10-12x less space on the server.

Quote from: Electro Fan
In the second photo you can see the Event Table.

Thanks for this one, EF!  I really wondered why they'd leave this out, but there's not a single word in the manual mentioning the Event Table function in any way, shape, or form!   :palm:  Good way to downgrade your own products, by omitting info on their capabilities.  But then, I've harped on the inadequacy of the 1000Z User Guide before, when mentioning the horrible chapter on SPI decoding.

Rigol could benefit from spending some time upgrading their user documents.  For the 1000Z, they STILL have no Programming Guide on any of their sites.   :rant:
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 12:48:07 pm by Mark_O »
 

Online Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2013, 04:47:20 pm »
Looks like everything works fine (except occasionally the operator).  |O :-DD

Heh, you know the scope itself can do screen captures to a USB drive.  ;)


Evan

Yep, but thanks - suggestions ALWAYS welcome here.  It is as Mark_O says, just a matter of it being easier to get a photo, preview it and qualify it, and then transmit it to the computer.  I actually downsize the image a bit on the PC before uploading but if I am being less than green on my use of resources I guess I could downsize more.  (Mostly just trying to preserve image quality to show the somewhat small text and graphics on the small screen.)  I don't notice much/any hit on speed (I have plenty of bandwidth on this end).  I guess even when bandwidth and storage are marching toward nearly free that 10x would be a useful improvement to attain.  No promises, but I'll look into it.

What I could use is a ton of help with is figuring out the Record functionality.  Any 1000Z basic Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 type suggestions for Record and Playback would be great.  Thanks!

Also, and this is a BIG one for any potential 1000Z buyers - the scope starts all the options right out of the box.  So, I'm rapidly eating my trial hours.  I think Rigol should have let a new user experience the basic scope, figure out the fundamental theory of operation, and then let the user invoke one option at a time as and when needed, but that is not the case.  So, anything anyone thinks would be good to explore with the options sooner than later (like today/tomorrow/soon), I'm definitely open to any suggestions ASAP.  For example, the Record/Playback function I think is an option.  Likewise the Deep Memory is an option.  Anything that would help me understand/better appreciate the utility of these two would be great to hear about ASAP.  Please let me know and I'll follow-up and report back.  I think I've pretty well ground down enough of the decoding and triggering to know those are very useful.  Not so sure yet (at least for my uses) how much I would miss or want the deep memory but I'm open to finding a reason for having it.  I'm very sure that Record and Playback could be highly useful - I just haven't found the way the controls are buried in the menu system to be real user friendly - but as we know, I'm just figuring out lots of stuff so I'm going to assume it's my lack of understanding regarding the scope and not the scope design.  But if possible I'd like to figure out the value of Deep Memory and Record Playback as my next areas to explore over the weekend.  Thanks  :-+ 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 05:01:11 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Online Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #92 on: November 09, 2013, 04:55:11 pm »
Heh, you know the scope itself can do screen captures to a USB drive.  ;)

Yeah, just plug in a memory stick, and press the Printer button.  But maybe EF has a camera hookup that makes photos easier to transfer?

In any event, uploading PNGs would be 10-12 times faster, and use 10-12x less space on the server.

Quote from: Electro Fan
In the second photo you can see the Event Table.

Thanks for this one, EF!  I really wondered why they'd leave this out, but there's not a single word in the manual mentioning the Event Table function in any way, shape, or form!   :palm:  Good way to downgrade your own products, by omitting info on their capabilities.  But then, I've harped on the inadequacy of the 1000Z User Guide before, when mentioning the horrible chapter on SPI decoding.

Rigol could benefit from spending some time upgrading their user documents.  For the 1000Z, they STILL have no Programming Guide on any of their sites.   :rant:

Rigol should offer a program whereby people who send them good product suggestions, produt test results, QC feedback, or better documentation in various languages get a thank you in the form of feature licenses for their products.  They could accelertate their pace of innovation and substantially improve their documenation (manuals, web site FAQs, etc.) in return for not much.  They could create a forum within a forum right here at EEV where they could moderate/answer questions/direct discussions.  Many people here work for the love of the work and Rigol would get better products and documentation, and then we would get the improved products and documentation.  Big Win-Win.
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2013, 05:11:37 pm »
Yep, but thanks - suggestions ALWAYS welcome here.  It is as Mark_O says, just a matter of it being easier to get a photo, preview it and qualify it, and then transmit it to the computer.
It's even simpler by grabbing the screen directly to your PC via LAN, that's how I do it.
You can then easily annotate it and save as png.
I use the utility written by an EEVblog member. I'm not at home right now, so I don't remember the name exactly but it's RUU...something, for Rigol Utility ?
Maybe someone else can point to the thread ?
Will update if I find it back, but I have to leave for a few hours right now.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2013, 06:56:55 pm »
It's even simpler by grabbing the screen directly to your PC via LAN, that's how I do it.
You can then easily annotate it and save as png.
I use the utility written by an EEVblog member. I'm not at home right now, so I don't remember the name exactly but it's RUU...something, for Rigol Utility ?
Maybe someone else can point to the thread ?
That would be marmad's (excellent) Rigol Ultravision Utility (RUU).

I don't know how well it works with the 1000Z, since it was designed for the 2000/4000/6000, but I'd guess it would handle at least the core basics well.  Channels 3 and 4?  No idea.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2013, 07:12:08 pm »
It is as Mark_O says, just a matter of it being easier to get a photo, preview it and qualify it, and then transmit it to the computer.  I actually downsize the image a bit on the PC before uploading but if I am being less than green on my use of resources I guess I could downsize more.  (Mostly just trying to preserve image quality to show the somewhat small text and graphics on the small screen.)  I don't notice much/any hit on speed (I have plenty of bandwidth on this end).  I guess even when bandwidth and storage are marching toward nearly free that 10x would be a useful improvement to attain.  No promises, but I'll look into it.

I wouldn't worry about it.  If it's convenient for you, it works for us.  I've appreciated seeing your test screens in detail, so I wouldn't bother trying to shrink or compress things more.  I think that Evan was just trying to suggest something you may not be aware of yet .

Quote
What I could use is a ton of help with is figuring out the Record functionality.  Any 1000Z basic Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 type suggestions for Record and Playback would be great.  Thanks!

It's not as difficult as it might appear at first.  Let's say you had some waveform or event you were already capturing, so your triggers were already set.  After you enter Record mode, you get to decide how much info to capture on each trigger, and how many such bursts (frames) to capture.  Naturally the two interact, and are related inversely.  If you want more frames, then you get less duration, or slower samples.  You can also specify an extra delay, essentially a Holdoff, between frames... if you need to expand your capture time interval longer.  This "ignores" a chunk of time between each frame, thus not letting you observe every occurrence, but capture for longer times (potentially hours, days, etc.).

I can't say much more because I can't explore the Menu options myself, and the User "Manual" has NO screen shots of Menu options at all (and really poor explanations of what they do document... they jumble lots of record and play topics all together).  But hey!  Maybe they  do provide the Time Tag option, but just didn't bother to document it in the 1000Z manual, as they did on the rest of the series.

Quote
So, anything anyone thinks would be good to explore with the options sooner than later (like today/tomorrow/soon), I'm definitely open to any suggestions ASAP.  For example, the Record/Playback function I think is an option.  Likewise the Deep Memory is an option.
...
Not so sure yet (at least for my uses) how much I would miss or want the deep memory but I'm open to finding a reason for having it.  ...  But if possible I'd like to figure out the value of Deep Memory and Record Playback as my next areas to explore over the weekend.  Thanks  :-+

Deep Memory is a bit of a misnomer, IMO.  Here it's really Deep(er) Memory.  You already get 12M samples which can be split to 6M or 3M per channel.  That's pretty huge to start with!  The expanded Memory option simply doubles all those numbers.  So for a similar situation, you could sample twice as fast (more time rez), or for twice as long (more time visible).
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 07:14:36 pm by Mark_O »
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2013, 09:06:58 pm »
That would be marmad's (excellent) Rigol Ultravision Utility (RUU).
Yes that's it, thanks.

Quote
I don't know how well it works with the 1000Z, since it was designed for the 2000/4000/6000, but I'd guess it would handle at least the core basics well.  Channels 3 and 4?  No idea.
I guess it was designed for the 2000 as it doesn't support channel 3 & 4 on the 4000 either but other than that it sort of works, so I guess that like you say, it should support at least basic features of the 1000Z if Rigol is consistent with it's SCPI implementation.
Now of course it also means installing all the NI VISA and Ultra Sigma bloatware... :rant:
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2013, 09:40:48 pm »
Now of course it also means installing all the NI VISA and Ultra Sigma bloatware... :rant:

Really?  You have to install all that crap just for a simple USB port driver?  Or is that for the LXI network interface?
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2013, 10:22:20 pm »
Really?  You have to install all that crap just for a simple USB port driver?  Or is that for the LXI network interface?
Well AFAIK, whatever the interface, you still need the VISA drivers. The advantage is that it virtualizes the instruments by adding an abstraction layer so you can manage them with more or less standard SCPI commands, but you have to install almost a gig of crap...
Now of course in you are wealthy enough to afford to buy a Labview license, it's mandatory anyway, but most of us just have to live with all that shit for just a few minutes use now and then.
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2013, 06:54:10 am »
I couldn't get the LXI stuff to install under Wine so I'm stuck with USB access at this stage.  However, I haven't even tried ftp or http as yet; but presumably they aren't an option.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 07:00:26 am by evanh »
 


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