Author Topic: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos  (Read 40656 times)

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Offline metalphreak

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Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« on: October 30, 2013, 01:47:47 am »
I received my DS1074Z-S late last week and have been playing around with it when I have time after work. Quite impressed with it over the DS1052E. Obviously 4 channels is nice to have but the entire look and feel of the scope is nicer. Having a higher resolution and slightly larger LCD screen helps. The update rate is the biggest improvement.

I have taken a couple of quick clips (more to come - needs to be edited and uploaded - 1mbit upload is sloooow)

Boot up time isn't amazingly quick, but it's not unbearably slow either.


Waveform update rate


DS1052E isn't the greatest at capturing the frequency here, as the trigger pulses are quite short. Measured 25,000 wfps with one channel active. This appears to drop equally by the number of channels active. 25k -> 12.5k -> 8k -> 6k

I have a bit of footage looking at the function gen part of it that I still need to upload. Does anyone have a particular request at what you would like to see?

This scope will be going back to the supplier next Monday as it has an annoying hardware issue where it will just spontaneously reboot. Apart from that, everything works perfectly. There's always going to be some kind of failure rate with early production models and it does have a 3 year warranty  ;)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 06:24:20 pm by metalphreak »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2013, 03:48:41 am »
I received my DS1074Z-S late last week and have been playing around with it when I have time after work. Quite impressed with it over the DS1052E. Obviously 4 channels is nice to have but the entire look and feel of the scope is nicer. Having a higher resolution and slightly larger LCD screen helps. The update rate is the biggest improvement.

I have taken a couple of quick clips (more to come - needs to be edited and uploaded - 1mbit upload is sloooow)

Boot up time isn't amazingly quick, but it's not unbearably slow either.


Waveform update rate


DS1052E isn't the greatest at capturing the frequency here, as the trigger pulses are quite short. Measured 25,000 wfps with one channel active. This appears to drop equally by the number of channels active. 25k -> 12.5k -> 8k -> 6k

I have a bit of footage looking at the function gen part of it that I still need to upload. Does anyone have a particular request at what you would like to see?

This scope will be going back to the supplier next Monday as it has an annoying hardware issue where it will just spontaneously reboot. Apart from that, everything works perfectly. There's always going to be some kind of failure rate with early production models and it does have a 3 year warranty  ;)

Thanks for posting the videos.  In many respects the scope looks excellent.

Any chance you could make another video showing the video record/navigate/analyze features (some are standard and some are options?), or comment on these capabilities on the 1000Z?

Also, another question/request for the OP and also/especially for others who have been (understandably) enthusastic advocates of 4 channel scopes (such as the 1000Z) vs 2 channel scopes (such as the DS2000 series): What are the chances that the various use cases for 4 channels will be sufficiently supported when the wfps drop from 25k -> 12.5k -> 8k -> 6k ?  How much useful work can really be done with 12.5k, 8k and 6k wfps? 

 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2013, 10:47:28 am »
Excuse me while I have a laugh at the sad state of social media sites ... I was reading this thread and decided I'd like to post my own videos on Youtube so I needed to make an account with Google ... well, it wasn't too painful, I did have to unnecessarily enable scripting but it was clean enough and the number of tracking scripts were minimal, according to Ghostery at least, and the process didn't require anything real apart from a valid email address, so I used a trash one along with rubbish almost random other info, didn't even have to re-choose the name ...

The wacky part came after I'd validated and relogged to view the OP's videos and ... what the hell happened to the list of related vids on the right hand side!?, they were totally random stuff all of sudden!  All the times I've surfed Youtube and actually enjoyed the related videos .. but now it's not related at all!

Why, even when I have no history with Google, would the algorithm choose to give me links to topics unrelated to the video itself?  I guess this shows the logged in algorithms don't at all target the subject matter at hand.  I find that as disturbing as it is broken.


PS:  Metalphreak, Sorry to hear it's dying on you.  Mine's never done a reset.  I purchased the same DS1074Z-S model about the same time as you from eyou.com.au.  Possibly even arrived in the same shipment.


Evan
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 11:10:06 am by evanh »
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2013, 10:50:53 am »
Any chance you could make another video showing the video record/navigate/analyze features (some are standard and some are options?), or comment on these capabilities on the 1000Z?

Record, yes.  Playback, sure.  Analyze, not available on the 1000Z, AFAICT.  (Assuming the documentation is correct.  An owner can confirm or refute that.)  This may be the biggest downside to this unit, since the ability to scan and set markers in a large capture, based on a set of conditions, is a powerful capability on the DS2000 series.  Navigate... just simple step fwd/rev, and fast scroll through the frames (or play back at various speeds).

Quote
...another question/request for the OP and also/especially for others who have been (understandably) enthusastic advocates of 4 channel scopes (such as the 1000Z) vs 2 channel scopes (such as the DS2000 series): What are the chances that the various use cases for 4 channels will be sufficiently supported when the wfps drop from 25k -> 12.5k -> 8k -> 6k ?  How much useful work can really be done with 12.5k, 8k and 6k wfps?

Hopefully, quite a bit, since even the DS2000 runs at <6k wfps on half of its timebase settings, even when running only a single channel and optimized sample length.  [Check out marmad's excellent chart].
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 10:56:01 am by Mark_O »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2013, 02:39:15 pm »
This scope will be going back to the supplier next Monday as it has an annoying hardware issue where it will just spontaneously reboot. Apart from that, everything works perfectly.
Problem with PSU?
There's always going to be some kind of failure rate with early production models and it does have a 3 year warranty  ;)
I am not sure if these are early production models... It has been sold in China for 6 months or so, right?
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2013, 02:47:34 pm »
http://youtu.be/xDY7IDstMvw
The boot up time is very similar to my DSOX2002A. The Rigol DS1000Z-S LEDs seem to be more bright to me than in DS2000.
The 0.000000000 ps (picoseconds?) reading looks funnny. But it is common at many Rigols.  :) :)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 02:52:03 pm by Hydrawerk »
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Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2013, 03:55:07 pm »
Any chance you could make another video showing the video record/navigate/analyze features (some are standard and some are options?), or comment on these capabilities on the 1000Z?

Record, yes.  Playback, sure.  Analyze, not available on the 1000Z, AFAICT.  (Assuming the documentation is correct.  An owner can confirm or refute that.)  This may be the biggest downside to this unit, since the ability to scan and set markers in a large capture, based on a set of conditions, is a powerful capability on the DS2000 series.  Navigate... just simple step fwd/rev, and fast scroll through the frames (or play back at various speeds).

Quote
...another question/request for the OP and also/especially for others who have been (understandably) enthusastic advocates of 4 channel scopes (such as the 1000Z) vs 2 channel scopes (such as the DS2000 series): What are the chances that the various use cases for 4 channels will be sufficiently supported when the wfps drop from 25k -> 12.5k -> 8k -> 6k ?  How much useful work can really be done with 12.5k, 8k and 6k wfps?

Hopefully, quite a bit, since even the DS2000 runs at <6k wfps on half of its timebase settings, even when running only a single channel and optimized sample length.  [Check out marmad's excellent chart].

Mark_O, Thanks for the comments on the Nav function - it is hard to know from reading Rigol's User Guides just exactly what the products do in some areas, so feedback from actual users (and other study-ers) is really valuable.  I had a hunch that the big Nav dial on the 2000 series gets all that front panel real estate for some good reasons and seeing it disappear on the 1000Z is causing some thinking/research/questions. 

If I understand correctly, on the 1000Z you cannot search based on particular conditions and you can't set an icon-type marker that would facilitate a subsequent return to the marker, but is it possible to specify a particular point in time (ie, enter a time value) for the waveform and then rapidly access that point in time?  Also, any info on what the 1000Z can do with and without the REC-DS1000Z ("Waveform Record and Play") Option would be most helpful.

If anyone can shed more light on the specific differences between the 1kz and the 2k series with respect to analysis and navigation that would be great. 

Regarding the wfps peformance you raise an interesting point - if the 2nd/3rd/4th channels on the 1kz are comparable to the 2nd channel on the 2k series then maybe it's no big deal.  It is clear from reading the zillion posts on the DS2k that it is a fantastic scope - hopefully the 1kZ will live up to it's potential as member of the Rigol scope family.

Any more reports from users or thoughts from interested potential users would be good! 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 03:58:41 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline casper.bang

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2013, 04:22:46 pm »
I wonder whether it has segmented memory like its big brother the DS2000? How loud is the fan, considering the noisy 1052E? Signal fidelity is obviously not going to be as great as on DS2000, but how much better is it than on the 1052E?
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2013, 05:38:27 pm »
I wonder whether it has segmented memory like its big brother the DS2000?

Yes.  Up to 60,000 frames, vs 1,000 on the 1052E.

Quote
Signal fidelity is obviously not going to be as great as on DS2000, but how much better is it than on the 1052E?

Depends on what aspect of signal fidelity you're referring to.  With respect to sample rates, the 1000Z is basically twice as fast as the 1052E, when running the same number of channels.  Also, twice the sensitivity, 24x as much memory, and (obviously) twice the # of channels.

Display updates are up to 30,000 wfms/s, vs ~800 on the 1052E (both single channel mode, but the 1000Z does better even with all 4 channels running than the 1052E with just one).  However, even this is a bit deceptive, since the 1052E has no color grading as the 1000Z has, to enable differentiating between frequent and rare occurrences.  So you're far more likely to miss a sporadic glitch there.

The 1052E has dual-timebases though, which the 1000Z (and 2000) lack.  It also has ET sampling mode (for repetitive signals) up to 10 GSa/s, which neither of the newer models supports.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2013, 08:00:02 pm »
If I understand correctly, on the 1000Z you cannot search based on particular conditions and you can't set an icon-type marker that would facilitate a subsequent return to the marker,...

Yes, that's correct.  Unless Rigol simply decided it wasn't worth putting in their manual.

Quote
...but is it possible to specify a particular point in time (ie, enter a time value) for the waveform and then rapidly access that point in time?

Not a point in time, but you can quickly dial up frame 2146, e.g., if you had some reason to do so (perhaps to return there after examining other frames).  Beyond that, nav is limited to next/previous.

Quote
Also, any info on what the 1000Z can do with and without the REC-DS1000Z ("Waveform Record and Play") Option would be most helpful.

That's what we're discussing.  Rigol's version of a Segmented capture mode.  Without the option, you can't do these acquisitions at all, and they can dramatically expand the ability to capture transient or sporadic issues.

One last difference there is that the 1000Z doesn't support the Open or continuous Record mode (whatever it's called), where it will continue to acquire frames and wrap around in memory.  With that mode, you always get the latest N frames.  Versus getting the first N, then stopping.

Oh, and one more big thing the 1000Z is lacking, which marmad pointed out was really vital with the DS2000 segmented captures... it doesn't appear to have the option to display the Date/Time stamp for each frame.  So you know that something happened a certain # of times, and can go look at each frame to examine the details.  You just can't tell WHEN each event happened.  That may not be critical in every situation, but it's certainly helpful.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2013, 09:25:42 pm »
If I understand correctly, on the 1000Z you cannot search based on particular conditions and you can't set an icon-type marker that would facilitate a subsequent return to the marker,...

Yes, that's correct.  Unless Rigol simply decided it wasn't worth putting in their manual.

Quote
...but is it possible to specify a particular point in time (ie, enter a time value) for the waveform and then rapidly access that point in time?

Not a point in time, but you can quickly dial up frame 2146, e.g., if you had some reason to do so (perhaps to return there after examining other frames).  Beyond that, nav is limited to next/previous.

Quote
Also, any info on what the 1000Z can do with and without the REC-DS1000Z ("Waveform Record and Play") Option would be most helpful.

That's what we're discussing.  Rigol's version of a Segmented capture mode.  Without the option, you can't do these acquisitions at all, and they can dramatically expand the ability to capture transient or sporadic issues.

One last difference there is that the 1000Z doesn't support the Open or continuous Record mode (whatever it's called), where it will continue to acquire frames and wrap around in memory.  With that mode, you always get the latest N frames.  Versus getting the first N, then stopping.

Oh, and one more big thing the 1000Z is lacking, which marmad pointed out was really vital with the DS2000 segmented captures... it doesn't appear to have the option to display the Date/Time stamp for each frame.  So you know that something happened a certain # of times, and can go look at each frame to examine the details.  You just can't tell WHEN each event happened.  That may not be critical in every situation, but it's certainly helpful.

All the features in the 2000 that are missing on the 1000Z would be nice to have but the ability to access the particular frame number might be just enough nav/review functionality to tip things in favor of the 1000Z (largely due to the 4 channels). 

Just to be clear, there seem to be 4 options on the 1000Z:

MEM-DS1000Z  Deep Memory Option 24Mpts (1 CH)/12Mpts (2 CH)/6Mpts (4 CH)Memory

REC-DS1000Z  Waveform record option Real Time Waveform Record and Replay function

AT-DS1000Z  Advanced Trigger option RS232/UART,I2C,SPI,Runt,Windows,Nth Edge, Delay, Time Out

SA-DS1000Z  Serial Bus Analysis Option RS232/UART,I2C,SPI Trigger and Decoding function

Are you saying that REC-DS1000Z ("Waveform Record and Replay function) is the option that provides "segmented memory" (rather than MEM-DS1000Z)?  Thanks
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2013, 09:59:03 pm »
Just to be clear, there seem to be 4 options on the 1000Z:

MEM-DS1000Z  Deep Memory Option 24Mpts (1 CH)/12Mpts (2 CH)/6Mpts (4 CH)Memory

REC-DS1000Z  Waveform record option Real Time Waveform Record and Replay function

AT-DS1000Z  Advanced Trigger option RS232/UART,I2C,SPI,Runt,Windows,Nth Edge, Delay, Time Out

SA-DS1000Z  Serial Bus Analysis Option RS232/UART,I2C,SPI Trigger and Decoding function

Are you saying that REC-DS1000Z ("Waveform Record and Replay function) is the option that provides "segmented memory" (rather than MEM-DS1000Z)?  Thanks

Yep, and all of the options are just soft switches for what is built in.  Notably, the 100/70 MHz switch is not in the list.

MEM - says how much of the built in RAM you have paid to use.  12/24 were the only options available to me upon purchase.

REC - says if you can use the "Record" menus.  This is the one that allows rapid capture of a series of low-sample count waveforms.  Interestingly, my old scope has this as an automatic always capturing configuration, instead of in special menus, but I still never really use it.  The deep memory catches all in a single pass anyway.  If you are regularly looking as repetitive signals then it's likely far more useful.

AT - for those that want it all.

SA - this one also contains all the enhanced serial trigger modes from AT-DS1000Z.
 

Offline creyc

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2013, 12:59:16 pm »
This is the scope that's been on my radar for a while now, I'm just waiting for a full review video (or even better a teardown!) before pulling the trigger.


On another note, does anyone know if this 70MHz version might be susceptible to another 100MHz hack like in past rigols?
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2013, 06:30:33 pm »


5min vid showing a bit of the function generator stuff. The sensitivity on the options rotary knob is way too high, there's no scrolling momentum/acceleration, and when you try to push the knob in to activate the button, sometimes it registers you rotating the knob... Other than that, the menus seem to be fairly well laid out, and it's fairly intuitive to use. The biggest downside to the built in function gen is the fact that it is indeed a built in function gen - all the controls are through softmenus. A standalone function gen usually has a dedicated numeric keypad and buttons for MHz, kHz, etc. For $200, if you're getting a DS1000Z scope and don't have a function gen, it's a serious consideration. If you have never used one before, it's a great introduction to what you can achieve with one, without having to spend big money (or buying a cheapie).


Also worth noting, is the fact there is no external modulation input, which you may typically find on a standalone function gen. There is an options menu to enable AM/FM modulation though, with custom freq settings. Probably a feature that won't be missed by me anyway ;)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 06:32:59 pm by metalphreak »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2013, 10:16:37 pm »
At my DSOX2002A the function generator has worse specifications, but the frequency setting is better. The rotary knob has speed acceleration. The setting is easy.
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Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2013, 09:26:18 am »
...

5min vid showing a bit of the function generator stuff.
Weren't you sending that thing back for repair?

Quote
The sensitivity on the options rotary knob is way too high, there's no scrolling momentum/acceleration, and when you try to push the knob in to activate the button, sometimes it registers you rotating the knob...
I was discussing a variant of this with a friend.

The menu function keys on the right edge of the display, when repeatedly pressed, change selection to the next option in the list, as opposed to just moving the cursor.  It would be useful if this happened only when the option under the cursor was already the selected option.

If the option under the cursor is not the selected option, when pressing it's function key, then it should be selected without moving the cursor.

This way when moving the cursor with the rotary knob, and you take your hand away while considering the highlighted option, you can either press the related function key or press the rotary knob to select that option.


Evan
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2013, 12:15:47 pm »
...

5min vid showing a bit of the function generator stuff.
Weren't you sending that thing back for repair?

Quote
The sensitivity on the options rotary knob is way too high, there's no scrolling momentum/acceleration, and when you try to push the knob in to activate the button, sometimes it registers you rotating the knob...
I was discussing a variant of this with a friend.

The menu function keys on the right edge of the display, when repeatedly pressed, change selection to the next option in the list, as opposed to just moving the cursor.  It would be useful if this happened only when the option under the cursor was already the selected option.

If the option under the cursor is not the selected option, when pressing it's function key, then it should be selected without moving the cursor.

This way when moving the cursor with the rotary knob, and you take your hand away while considering the highlighted option, you can either press the related function key or press the rotary knob to select that option.


Evan

It is quite inconsistent between the various options menus which can make navigation a bit difficult until you are used to using it. With the frequency setting, none of the softmenu buttons do anything of use. The entire row of 6 buttons on the left side of the menu could be used to set Mhz, khz, Hz, mHz for example. The softmenu buttons on the right could change to be +1 unit, +5units, -1 unit, -5 units, so you could quickly change between common frequencies.

Pressing in the rotary knob to make a selection is very difficult without ever so slightly rotating the knob, which registers a change.

I'm sending the scope back tomorrow (Monday). I wanted to spend some time using it first :) It works perfectly fine apart from spontaneously rebooting every now and then.

Once I've had a fair bit of experience using it, I might compile a list of "bug fixes" or improvements, and send them to Rigol. Does anyone have a proper contact email address for them? (queries via the online webform appear to go unanswered).


As for what the options do, it comes with all the trials pre-activated, so it's hard to compare with the standard version until they expire.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 12:17:32 pm by metalphreak »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2013, 05:55:37 pm »
Well, it looks like Rigol is about half a hardware company and half a software company and like many software companies it might not get the best or final version out the door with 1.0.  How much of the feature set can or will be enhanced on the 1000Z as a result of user and overall market feedback remains to be seen. 

Based on the DS2000 series it would seem that Rigol has plenty of ability to design and steadily enhance products - and achieve commendable results.  Nonetheless, it is somewhat disappointing that Rigol doesn't engage a little more with respect to individual and overall market facing communications.  For example, if someone at Rigol were to better/more fully address just exactly where the company is with their various power supply issues that might help Rigol gain even better product sales and it would probably give some extra confidence to existing owners who voted for Rigol power supplies with their wallets.

Some of the specific early comments on the 1000Z scope might be fixable in software/firmware - such as the functionality of some of the menus and buttons.  Others might just be a function of the price/cost design point.  For what it's worth, the first time I had a chance to use Agilent scopes (several in the DSOX2000 series) I was surprised how "twiddly" their knobs are - they didn't seem to operate with tremendous precision.  I wouldn't say they felt cheap but they certainly didn't have the positive feedback of old Tektronix click stop reference knobs.  Having said that, even on venerable Tek analog scopes some of the knobs were/are just "good" (not great) - although even the Analog Tek continuously variable knobs were probably slightly more solid feeling than what comes on the Agilent DSOX 2000 series.  And no doubt, user knob turning and button pushing can be somewhat subjective. 

I'm pretty sure that both Rigol and Agilent (and other scope manufacturers) are fighting tooth and nail to deliver as much thoughtful functionality as they can muster while keeping costs down so they can keep prices down and still make enough margin to stay in business.  My guess is that when we want a ton of scope functionality for closer to $500 than $1000 something in the way of hardware might be less than state of the art or top-shelf quality.  So hardware might be a smidgeon off (such as with some of the knobs), but there is no reason for not getting the software to a state where the user experience is enjoyable rather than frustrating.  Certainly, when customers start sending products back for a refund rather than keeping something they had been looking forward to using and owning - that would indicate the product might need some help.

Long story short:

1. Rigol has the know-how to make excellent scopes
2. Rigol doesn't seem to consistently get their best out of 1.0 versions
3. Rigol has shown the tenacity to improve early versions but they go at their pace and with their priorities
4. Rigol could/should do a better job of communicating their awareness of customer feedback (at least on key features and functions) in a way that gives better confidence to existing customers and potential new customers, ie, Rigol should work harder/better to communicate that meaningful feedback from early customers will be addressed.

If Rigol doesn't step up more directly, then the role of their distributors (such as Tequipment, for example) becomes even more important.  So far it appears that Tequipment and Rigol make good partners and together the combination is good for customers.  It remains to be seen however whether companies such as Tequipment can become strong spokespersons for feature/function roadmaps, or whether they can just provide (good but) conventional sales and service support.

Overall, I'm cautiously optimistic that Rigol will step up their game another notch and further improve on what has so far been very good progress over their last several years in the test equipment business.

- If the DS1000Z garners user support and enthuisasm at the same rate or even more so than the DS2000 Rigol will have done their job well. 

EF
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 06:02:41 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline creyc

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2013, 12:25:43 pm »
Very interesting opinions in this thread.  I was just about set to order a DS1074Z-S before reading this thread, and now I'm not so sure it's a great time to buy.  I hate buying 'broken' software under the assumption it will just be patched later with an update..but I need a scope badly!
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2013, 12:18:22 am »
It's not broken, it can just be improved :) it's an amazing scope for the price.

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2013, 01:15:21 am »
Very interesting opinions in this thread.  I was just about set to order a DS1074Z-S before reading this thread, and now I'm not so sure it's a great time to buy.  I hate buying 'broken' software under the assumption it will just be patched later with an update..but I need a scope badly!
It's not broken, it can just be improved :) it's an amazing scope for the price.

Agreed.  I'm inclined to surface as many facts from user experiences as possible because as a "realistic optimist":-DD I think that can only lead to  better buying decisions and also hopefully better product support.  I certainly don't want to talk anyone out of a DS1000Z.  I'm more interested in having Rigol step up and do their very best - which I think can be excellent.  I'm betting they will rally and fix bugs as they are reported and bring feature improvements as they are reasonably suggested.  Plus, being part of this forum and the informal (leading-edge?) User's Group that exists here we have a great ecosystem for learning, support, and hopefully gaining the ear of Rigol's product managers.  I can't argue with anyone buying a DS2000 but I think if you need a 4 channel scope for anywhere near $500 the 1000Z is the way to fly. 

To me it isn't a question of how good is the 1000Z is so far, it's a matter of how fast (through bug fixes and firmware enhancements) it can become legendary like the DS2000, or even better.  The only other question is how fast can Rigol (and other scope manufacturers) truly dial-in the full potential for achieving cost-effective MSO functionality that enables users to easily, reliably, and powerfully manage both analog and digital signals with precise time correlation.  I think we are on the path with both Rigol and Agilent.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 01:27:19 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline apelly

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2013, 01:31:21 am »
The sensitivity on the options rotary knob is way too high, there's no scrolling momentum/acceleration, and when you try to push the knob in to activate the button, sometimes it registers you rotating the knob...

Same on the 2000. But YES... momentum/acceleration is the best bloody idea I've heard for ages!
I'd rather a Google clue, link, or some theory than "do this" (generally)
 

Offline creyc

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2013, 03:18:07 am »
I realize this is COMPLETELY an unofficial opinion question, but do you think that if I bought a DS1074Z-S now, I would be eligible for future software updates as they updated these scopes in the hopefully near-future?  I don't want to buy something only for it to become obsoleted by its own Rev. 2 model in just 3 months time..

 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2013, 04:15:46 am »
You can get firmware updates as they become available. Just ask your supplier. I was told there isn't one available above the shipping version yet. Thought my issue might be firmware related but it's not. I doubt there'll be a hardware revision any time soon. The hardware updates on the ds2000 seem to be for the additional function gen models coming out.

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2013, 05:13:30 am »
The sensitivity on the options rotary knob is way too high, there's no scrolling momentum/acceleration, and when you try to push the knob in to activate the button, sometimes it registers you rotating the knob...

Same on the 2000. But YES... momentum/acceleration is the best bloody idea I've heard for ages!

Agreed - it would seem that momentum/acceleration would be a highly desirable feature on knob controls.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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New Rigol DS1104Z - First Impressions
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2013, 06:17:24 am »
Heads-up - this is where my "it's not a review" starts, but there are parts of this that are confused and confusing as it relates to decoding, and there are more confused and confusing posts I made that follow; if you want to follow my confusion - read them all; if you want to get closer to the conclusion read this post (#25) and then jump to reply #48 and continue from there.  (In between where you see posts from other members - those are worth reading; mine maybe not so much unless you are really into watching a new guy learn decoding.)  Just trying to help readers navigate and use their time effectively.   Thx, EF

Ok, here is where the rubber has met the road.

Attached are some photos from my new Rigol DS1104Z.  (I passed on the S version as I have a function generator that does some of what I need/want and I figured if I like the scope enough maybe I'll go for a DG4062).

First - Thanks! to the many EEVers here who have provided so many great posts.  If it wasn't for this site I might not have discovered Rigol and/or I might not have had the confidence that Rigol could build such a great scope.

This purchase represents about a half year of product research and anticipation.  (Somewhat thorough, maybe; quickly decisive on this, not so much.)  What had me thrown for a loop was my strong desire to find the intersection between DSOs and Logic Analyzers without having to jump too far up the food chain on a somewhat pricey MSO.  Anyway, today the 1104Z arrived - so my impressions are very preliminary - but I can also say the impressions are (knock on wood) very positive!

The Rigol packaging includes a nice double box.  The unit itself stuck me as compact in a good way and the construction appears solid with good workmanship.

Coming from an analog Tektronix (2247A) scope that I've loved using there was some possibility that I could have plugged-in and turned on the DS1104Z and said "so what's the big deal?" but I am happy to say I immediately recognized the big deal when I saw it.

As soon as it booted up I had my first serious "I get why this is very cool" impression.  I guess I should have expected that the difference between a vintage green screen and a color display would be notable.  A friend of mine who worked many years ago for Xerox said they taught him that color has "impact and distinction."  Indeed!

The next thing is that the screen is sharp.  While some of the lettering rendered on the screen is on the small side it is clear.  Overall I'd say my impression of the screen is "gorgeous" - but again my beloved (nearly vintage) Tek scope is the reference.  Speaking of relative, the fan on the DS1104Z sounds pretty close to whisper quite (or at least it's very minor backgroud noise) compared to the fan on the 2247A.  I don't know if I got an especially good fan in the Rigol or if other users were hoping for no fan sound whatsoever, but of all the things that would bug me the sound of this fan isn't one of them. 

I just started pressing buttons and turning knobs and my first reaction is that the controls are in very reasonable locations on the front panel, they have nice enough action, and the scope is very friendly overall.  I've already found a few menu items here and there where I could probably come up with a reason to change this or that but nothing serious at all - and I'm so new to the scope that I'm willing to forgo any judgments until I can better understand what might have been the reasoning behind the design.

So, without further ado I hooked up a PC with up my favorite HyperTerminal ASCII file consisting of all upper case Us so that I could observe some 1s and 0s.  (Thanks again to ALM for turning me on to the extra nice square wave pattern generated with the capital Us.)   In addition to being nearly blown away by the modern day advancement of color I found that a digital scope is MUCH easier for triggering and especially navigating signals than an analog scope.  Hello this century!

Moving further into modern technology I worked my way through the decoder options, and low and behold I was able to get the scope to decode my alternating high and low voltage waveform into ASCII U’s!  Next I was able to press the Format soft menu key to select BIN and what did I get? 01010101  Well, this might be really good or it might be a wif.  According to the documentation I have regarding ASCII characters, it appears that a capital U is in fact alternating 1s and 0s, but it should be 10101010 (not 01010101).  I have played with the soft menu to try various combinations of polarity and MSB and LSB but so far I haven’t been able to figure out what’s up with this.  It is possible that this is a software/firmware bug (this might be along the lines of some issues reported by AndyC_772) or this might very well be (probably is) my own user error.  On the other hand, when the U character is displayed under Format as a DEC setting it shows 85 which in fact is the right number according to the ASCII table I am using.  So unfortunately, I think it might be a firmware error.  My take on this is that if it is my error, shame on me; if it is a Rigol error no big deal – I’m sure they can and will fix it.

Zooming out (figuratively), I am ecstatic that what I imagined was doable on an oscilloscope – the ability to observe waveforms and decode characters in ASCII, Binary, Hex and Decimal is not only doable, but it is pretty straight forward and easy (and fun) to use – and it is doable at a very nice price point with a very good looking scope.

I haven’t gotten around to finding a reason yet for why I had to have 4 channels (instead of getting a bigger display with better performance on the DS2000 series) but hey, it’s my first couple hours with the scope.  My initial reaction is that by the time I get 4 channels displayed at the same time the display might be kind of small/cramped but maybe the idea is that you can have all 4 channels hooked up and ready to observe and then you can turn each channel on and off as needed.  My guess is that with all 4 channels doing something useful (SPI?) it will be cool.

So far (knock on wood): :-+ :-+   
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 01:47:25 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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DS1074 More Decoder Stuff
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2013, 08:37:27 am »
Big caveat:  could be lots of user error here.
Here is an image showing both decoders working on the same signal.  Setup is for transmit and receive with one decoder Format set for BIN and the other for ASC.  For some reason Rigol labels the top 2 green decoder lines B1 and the second 2 B2; I'm wondering why they didn't lable them D1 and D2 (as in Decoder 1 and Decoder 2)?

Also, I'm still wondering if the LSB and MSB settings aren't reversed.  I'll try to post another image showing my question/reasoning on this.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 09:25:09 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Rigol DS1104Z LSB and MSB Decoding
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2013, 09:02:39 am »
Another Standard Disclaimer:  Could be lots of User Error here
Ok, here are two images of the same waveform - only difference is the Order setting.  One is with LSB the other is with MSB.

Notice that in the LSB image the byte on the left is a lower case u and it is associated with 01110101.  The byte on the right is an upper case U and it is associated with 01010101.  Per the earlier posts, the upper case U supposedly is represented by a symetrical sine wave which is the case here, but also as per the earlier posts the upper case U supposedly is 10101010 (rather than 010100101).

Be all that as it may, the lower case U (represented by 01110101) sits below a waveform that seems to have symetrical highs and lows at the beginning of the byte and a long/continuous low at he end of the byte.  IE, the 1s and 0s look bass ackwards from the waveform above.

To help make this point, take a look at the second image labeled MSB.  In this image we see that with the order set for MSB we get a Binary readout of 10101110 - which seems to nicely correlate with the shape of the waveform above.  However, we can also see that both this byte (on the left) and the other byte (on the right) are now decoded as a "." (period) rather than as a U (either upper or lower case).  The image doesn't show it, but if I turn the Format on the MSB waveform from ASC to DEC the scope says 174 for the byte on the left and 170 for the byte on the right.  174 is supposed to be the registered trade mark sign and 170 is supposed to be the feminine ordinal indicator.

Long story short, I think it is very very cool to be able to see the decoder lines line up on the highs and lows of the waveform and in theory the ability to decode into various formats (Binary, Hex, Decimal, ASCII and Line - although I'm not clear on the difference beween Binary and Line) is very cool, but I think it would be good for me to figure out how to use this better, or if the firmware isn't working right then that should be fixed.

- For what it is worth Wikipedia claims:  "The X3 committee also addressed how ASCII should be transmitted (least significant bit first)"

Either way, I can see the promise in this and it is somewhere between outstanding and exquisite  :)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 09:24:54 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline casper.bang

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2013, 09:26:15 am »
Interesting stuff Electro Fan, keep it coming. :) I wonder, can you say something about the amount of data packets (bytes) you are able to record using the DS1000z's 12Msample memory? I suspect we're talking several hundreds bytes when dealing with RS-232 speeds of max. 115200 or?!
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2013, 09:41:32 am »
Still trying to figure this out.

In the image below I adjusted the decoders to use MSB and I changed the polarity.

In this arrangement the polarity shows high voltage as 1s and low voltage as 0s.

Together these settings show the alternating 10101010 binary string to be decoded as 85 which is an upper case U in the ASCII table.

This seems to fly in the face of the Wikpedia entry that claims that ASCII supposedly standardized on LSB.

Another area of (my) uncertainty is whether it is the ASCII convention or the RS232 convention that determines the polarity (ie, whether high voltage is represented by a one or a zero).  Either way, (whether it's ASCII code or the RS232 protocol that determines polarity) it does seem that using the combination shown below we have two "benefits":

1. the waveform pattern correlates with symmetry to the 1s and 0s
2. the Rigol decoder decodes 10101010 as an 85 which corresponds to the ASCII table

I'm ready for someone that knows more than me (pretty much all the EEVers here, I'm betting) to sort me out on what's what with ASCII, polarity, and significant bit ordering.

Thanks, EF
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 01:39:42 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline casper.bang

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2013, 09:48:28 am »
Quote
Another area of (my) uncertainty is whether it is the ASCII convention or the RS232 convention that determines the polarity (ie, whether high voltage is represented by a one or a zero).

In my experience with RS-232, on the wire, a logical low is usually represented as high voltage and logical high as low voltage. If you start hooking up a "real" RS-232 signal and play with parity, stop bit etc. you can observe these things a little better perhaps.

In the screendump below, you can see almost 3 cycles where I captured 0x55, 0x00, 0xFF (being repeated) at 8N1.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 09:55:40 am by casper.bang »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2013, 09:53:31 am »
Interesting stuff Electro Fan, keep it coming. :) I wonder, can you say something about the amount of data packets (bytes) you are able to record using the DS1000z's 12Msample memory? I suspect we're talking several hundreds bytes when dealing with RS-232 speeds of max. 115200 or?!

Well, it's too early for me to say anything definitive about this (or much else other than I need some sleep) but on a very preliminary basis I think I found some record functionality buried in the menu system.  I'm concered that this is going to remind me of one of the reasons I was on the fence about the 1000z vs. the DS2000 series with it's beautiful big Nav knob prominently located where it can easily be found and used, not to mention the highly visible VCR-like lights.

With respect to how much memory at what sample rate is needed to do what I am barely able to figure out what's doing what to what along these lines.  Once I figure out how to decode something accurately I'm planning to move on to other key functions such as record and playback, and along the way I'll hopefully figure out the real world implications of the memory and it's relationship to sampling and the associated impact on waveform fidelity.  I get this stuff (almost) in theory, but after having been reading about it for 6 months it is a blast having the chance to work with it hands-on.  It's kind of like having been reading about the mountains while growing up in the plains states and now we're on vacation at the foot hills of the Rockies - very exciting - but I'm sure to the locals I look like a tourist :-DD
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 09:56:20 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2013, 10:04:01 am »
Quote
Another area of (my) uncertainty is whether it is the ASCII convention or the RS232 convention that determines the polarity (ie, whether high voltage is represented by a one or a zero).

In my experience with RS-232, on the wire, a logical low is usually represented as high voltage and logical high as low voltage. If you start hooking up a "real" RS-232 signal and play with parity, stop bit etc. you can observe these things a little better perhaps.

In the screendump below, you can see almost 3 cycles where I captured 0x55, 0x00, 0xFF (being repeated) at 8N1.

I am guessing this is correct - which means, I think, that a "0" is used to represent a high voltage and a "1" is used to represent a low voltage.  I'd be happy if this turns out to be standard RS232 convention  :)

In which case we just need to figure out what drives the choice between MSB and LSB.  If MSB is dictated by either ASCII or RS232 Rigol would seem to have it right.  If it turns out we need LSB I'm thinking Rigol might need to make an adjustment.  But to be clear - I don't know. So just read my posts today/tonight as the learnings of a guy trying to figure stuff out.  The DS1000Z is very cool.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Alignment Question
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2013, 10:10:14 am »
Another observation/question:

Regardless of the convention, LSB or MSB and the polarity, why don't the BIN and DEC decode bytes align?

In my mind, the decode boxes should line up on the start and end of the waveform bytes they are decoding.  The BIN and DEC boxes should be horizontally consistent with each other, no? 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 10:11:47 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline casper.bang

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2013, 10:39:36 am »
It almost looks like one of the interpreters got the start-bit wrong. Why don't you try to send an ASCII "p", bit-pattern 0111000? It would show a little easier which one is wrong (one of them has to be wrong). Also, is this consistent from the get go, or could it perhaps have something to do with you adding interpreters and triggering on an ongoing signal?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 10:44:22 am by casper.bang »
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2013, 10:55:24 am »
For RS232, line driver levels are positive polarity.  They internally invert the signal, as do the UARTs.  This means the intermediate logic levels are negative polarity.

I'm gonna guess, not having my scope to play with right now, there is separate settings for MSB and LSB decode options.  I say this because it appears your example LSB decode is using negative polarity, 10101110, while at the same time the MSB decode is using positive polarity, 10101000.

The reason for the one bit offset is due to the requirement of start bit sync'ing.

With positive polarity a stop is high and a start is low - Making the first low a start bit, which, in turn, makes the second high on the display the most significant bit of the data byte.

With negative polarity a stop is low and a start is high - Making the second high a start bit since the initial state must be an idle (stop bit), which, in turn, makes the second low on the display the least significant bit of the data byte.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2013, 10:56:59 am »
It almost looks like one of the interpreters got the start-bit wrong. Why don't you try to send an ASCII "p", bit-pattern 0111000? It would show a little easier which one is wrong (one of them has to be wrong). Also, is this consistent from the get go, or could it perhaps have something to do with you adding interpreters and triggering on an ongoing signal?

I don't think it's a matter of the sequence of 1s and 0s; the green decode boxes (whether they are displaying ASCII or Decimal or Binary) should align with one another - as well as with the waveform.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2013, 11:10:00 am »
For RS232, line driver levels are positive polarity.  They internally invert the signal, as do the UARTs.  This means the intermediate logic levels are negative polarity.

I'm gonna guess, not having my scope to play with right now, there is separate settings for MSB and LSB decode options.  I say this because it appears your example LSB decode is using negative polarity, 10101110, while at the same time the MSB decode is using positive polarity, 10101000.

The reason for the one bit offset is due to the requirement of start bit sync'ing.

With positive polarity a stop is high and a start is low - Making the first low a start bit, which, in turn, makes the second high on the display the most significant bit of the data byte.

With negative polarity a stop is low and a start is high - Making the second high a start bit since the initial state must be an idle (stop bit), which, in turn, makes the second low on the display the least significant bit of the data byte.

Ok, this is good - let's take it a line at a time:

For RS232, line driver levels are positive polarity.  They internally invert the signal, as do the UARTs.  This means the intermediate logic levels are negative polarity.

- what does "intermediate" mean?  I am under the impression that voltage is either high or low; same with logic - it is either a 1 or a 0.  What is intermediate?  Please explain.  Thx

I'm gonna guess, not having my scope to play with right now, there is separate settings for MSB and LSB decode options.  I say this because it appears your example LSB decode is using negative polarity, 10101110, while at the same time the MSB decode is using positive polarity, 10101000.

- Yes, MSB or LSB can be set; separately the polarity can be set.

The reason for the one bit offset is due to the requirement of start bit sync'ing.

- each byte has 8 data bits and one stop bit.  The stop bits should always align as should the 8 data bits.  I see no reason (other than errors) for losing sync.

With positive polarity a stop is high and a start is low - Making the first low a start bit, which, in turn, makes the second high on the display the most significant bit of the data byte.

- there is no "start" bit; only 1 stop bit (and no parity).  Seems like there should be 8 data bits followed by a stop bit.  Every 9th bit should be the same (ie, the stop bit) everything else is subject to change according to the data characters being transmitted.  In my examples almost all the characters should have been upper case Us.  (It is possible that something else got inserted such a Line Feed or a Carriage Return here or there.)

With negative polarity a stop is low and a start is high - Making the second high a start bit since the initial state must be an idle (stop bit), which, in turn, makes the second low on the display the least significant bit of the data byte.

- Again, my setup doesn't specify a start bit but maybe by convention there is alwyas a start bit?  Even so, if there is anything resembling consistency, why wouldn't the decode byte boxes line up?  The only time they shouldn't align is if there is an error.  Once upon a time I thought I saw a demo somewhere saying some types of errors were flagged with a red marker - maybe that was on a different scope.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Alignment Question
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2013, 11:24:49 am »
Another observation/question:

Regardless of the convention, LSB or MSB and the polarity, why don't the BIN and DEC decode bytes align?

In my mind, the decode boxes should line up on the start and end of the waveform bytes they are decoding.  The BIN and DEC boxes should be horizontally consistent with each other, no?

Ok, should have gone to bed much earlier - just answered at least one of my own questions.  Why don't the green decode boxes line up?  Duh, one set was on MSB and othe other was on LSB.   :palm: |O

__________

In the attached image MSB seems to correlate/align better with the waveform but MSB does not seem to be the popular convention, still trying to sort this out.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 11:28:06 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2013, 11:27:27 am »
- what does "intermediate" mean?  I am under the impression that voltage is either high or low; same with logic - it is either a 1 or a 0.  What is intermediate?  Please explain.  Thx

I was meaning the electrical wiring, generically referred to as logic levels as opposed to line driver levels, between the UART serial controller and the hardened line drivers/receives.


Yes, UARTs always use a start and stop bit arrangement.  And idle between bytes in the stop state.  This way they can operate without any reference clock.

In terms of what I would expect of what's on the display, I'd go for positive polarity and LSB.  That would make the bit pattern a STOP at the very left edge then START then 10101000 in little endian makes 00010101 in big endian (which is how we read numbers) which is 21 decimal, 15 hex, which in ASCII terms is a NAK or ^U.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 11:53:16 am by evanh »
 

Offline casper.bang

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2013, 11:38:03 am »
Once upon a time I thought I saw a demo somewhere saying some types of errors were flagged with a red marker - maybe that was on a different scope.

The DS2000 series scope can do this:
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Aye Yay Yae....
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2013, 11:39:38 am »
Ok, here is an image - where both the Binary and the Decimal Decoders are set for LSB - but they don't align with one another.  I just don't see any reason to graphically represent the same waveform with two different types of decodes - which represent the same byte - but then place them at two different positions horizontally in time.
 

Offline nowlan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2013, 11:43:44 am »
Asynchronous always use start bits. From what I can see, the LSB is sent first.

Suggest reading Port Serial Complete by Jan Axelson.
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2013, 11:45:03 am »
It would help if there was more of the preamble showing.  And with your input setting of 5.00 Amps/div it's hard to tell if that is line driver levels or logic levels.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2013, 11:46:17 am »
Once upon a time I thought I saw a demo somewhere saying some types of errors were flagged with a red marker - maybe that was on a different scope.

The DS2000 series scope can do this:

If the DS1000Z can do it I haven't found it yet.

It's starting to remind me of the Windows 8 tablet commercial where MSFT finally finds some things to make fun of Apple and the iPad says "do you still think I'm pretty?"  :D
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2013, 11:51:05 am »
Once upon a time I thought I saw a demo somewhere saying some types of errors were flagged with a red marker - maybe that was on a different scope.

The DS2000 series scope can do this:
That's I2C.  Can you find a UART based example?
 

Offline casper.bang

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2013, 11:58:22 am »
That's I2C.  Can you find a UART based example?

Ah right, so it is! No I guess I remembered wrong then.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2013, 12:22:38 pm »
EF, congrats on your new acquisition.  I was starting to wonder if you might be in an "infinite evaluation" loop.  :)

Once upon a time I thought I saw a demo somewhere saying some types of errors were flagged with a red marker - maybe that was on a different scope.

The DS2000 series scope can do this:

If the DS1000Z can do it I haven't found it yet.

I'm pretty sure it does, but the only way to trigger it with that decoder would be to send an ASCII character with bad parity.  Red markers flag errors, and you'd need a Parity error, or missing Stop bit to get a red flag.

[Added later: OR, in the presence of noise or some other glitchy interfering signal, have the voltage level deformed enough that one of your data bits was damaged, caused the Parity to fail; or your Stop bit not to be detected properly.  That's the strength of having a multi-channel scope, vs. a pure LA analyzing your signals.  The LA may tell you something went wrong, but with the DSO you can see exactly why and where.  With the LA you operate "blind", and hope/assume your threshold levels are capturing the 0's and 1's correctly... and sometimes they are not.   :scared:]

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It's starting to remind me of the Windows 8 tablet commercial where MSFT finally finds some things to make fun of Apple and the iPad says "do you still think I'm pretty?"  :D

I started to put together an explanation of what you were interpreting incorrectly or overlooking, but the list got too long, so I scrapped it.  ;)  Suffice to say that in spite of the ubiquity of ASCII data streams, RS232 data links, etc. that it's not completely trivial at the physical layer.  You can have polarity inversion, endian inversion, start bits, stop bits, parity bits, etc.  And when you look at it in that unfamiliar domain, it can be confusing.

But that's the whole reason you have the decoders in the first place... to sort all that out for you, and shift things from the physical to the logical domain.  If it was trivial to just read the bit stream off the scope (and RS232 is one of the simpler ones), then there'd be no need for decoders!  So you're doing things like looking at the physical patterns, and scratching your head wondering why they don't match up exactly with the logical... because they don't!   :phew:

Thanks for all the screen shots though.  I already learned something I didn't know... which was that you can have more than one decoder interpretation on the screen at the same time, for the same data stream.  In your case, binary & decimal.  Not overly useful, but I'd think you'd only get one. 

[Oh, and they use B1 to denote Bus1, copying those who came before them.  They'll need D1, D2, ... later for the 16 digital channels on their MSO.]
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 12:42:58 pm by Mark_O »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Starting to dial-in decoding on the DS1104Z
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2013, 12:41:32 pm »
It would help if there was more of the preamble showing.  And with your input setting of 5.00 Amps/div it's hard to tell if that is line driver levels or logic levels.

Here you go - set back on volts as it should be and more of the waveform has been captured for display.

The only way to get the 1s and 0s (the Binary Decodes) to align with the waveform is to set the polarity as shown in the attached image and to set MSB for the Binary Decodes - no other combination of polarity and bit order will allow the 1s and 0s to have alignment and symmetry with the waveform.

Keeping the polarity as shown in the image for both decoders is essential to accurately achieving the two forms of decoding.  (The two decoders must use the same polarity.)

Despite the above, the only way to get 85s (which I am sure is the number for capital Us) is to set LSB, not MSB for the second decoder (ie, the Decimal Decodes).  This will both yield the correct Decimal Decode (ie, show 85s) and also time align both decoders (the Binary and the Decimal), but it requires setting the two decoders to opposing orders (one for MSB and one for LSB) - which makes no sense.  If the second decoder is set for MSB (like the first decoder), it will yield incorrect Decimal Decodes.

I am about ready to say that Rigol has something out of wack - I wouldn't bet super heavily on it, but I'm leaning that way.

In summary

1. Some combination of settings should allow the 1s and 0s to appear with alignment and symmetry relative to the waveform.
2. The sequence of 1s and 0s must decode properly into ASCII, Hex, and Decimal.
3. The waveform and the two selected forms of decodes should all time align with one another.


So far it does not appear that any combination of settings will allow for all three of these statements to be true.

EF

Check out the symmetry and alignment between the waveform and the 1s and 0s in the image below - it is perfecto, beautiful, magnifico!!!  It is completely doable - we are looking at it here.

Check out the symmetry and alignment between the waveform and the 1s and 0s in the image below, and also the alignment with the second decoder (showing the decimal information) - again it is perfecto, beautiful, magnifico!!!  It is completely doable - we are looking at it here.

The only thing that is not right is that these results were achieved by jiggering the MSB and LSB settings - these results should have been achieved by using the same (LSB or MSB setting) on both decoders (one is right and the other is wrong - and Rigol should fix the one that is wrong).  If they get this squared away they have a Kick-A _ _ (Butt) solution.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 01:53:34 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2013, 12:50:32 pm »
EF, congrats on your new acquisition.  I was starting to wonder if you might be in an "infinite evaluation" loop.  :)

Once upon a time I thought I saw a demo somewhere saying some types of errors were flagged with a red marker - maybe that was on a different scope.

The DS2000 series scope can do this:

If the DS1000Z can do it I haven't found it yet.

I'm pretty sure it does, but the only way to trigger it with that decoder would be to send an ASCII character with bad parity.  Red markers flag errors, and you'd need a Parity error, or missing Stop bit to get a red flag.

[Added later: OR, in the presence of noise or some other glitchy interfering signal, have the voltage level deformed enough that one of your data bits was damaged, caused the Parity to fail; or your Stop bit not to be detected properly.  That's the strength of having a multi-channel scope, vs. a pure LA analyzing your signals.  The LA may tell you something went wrong, but with the DSO you can see exactly why and where.  With the LA you operate "blind", and hope/assume your threshold levels are capturing the 0's and 1's correctly... and sometimes they are not.   :scared:]

Quote
It's starting to remind me of the Windows 8 tablet commercial where MSFT finally finds some things to make fun of Apple and the iPad says "do you still think I'm pretty?"  :D

I started to put together an explanation of what you were interpreting incorrectly or overlooking, but the list got too long, so I scrapped it.  ;)  Suffice to say that in spite of the ubiquity of ASCII data streams, RS232 data links, etc. that it's not completely trivial at the physical layer.  You can have polarity inversion, endian inversion, start bits, stop bits, parity bits, etc.  And when you look at it in that unfamiliar domain, it can be confusing.

But that's the whole reason you have the decoders in the first place... to sort all that out for you, and shift things from the physical to the logical domain.  If it was trivial to just read the bit stream off the scope (and RS232 is one of the simpler ones), then there'd be no need for decoders!  So you're doing things like looking at the physical patterns, and scratching your head wondering why they don't match up exactly with the logical... because they don't!   :phew:

Thanks for all the screen shots though.  I already learned something I didn't know... which was that you can have more than one decoder interpretation on the screen at the same time, for the same data stream.  In your case, binary & decimal.  Not overly useful, but I'd think you'd only get one. 

[Oh, and they use B1 to denote Bus1, copying those who came before them.  They'll need D1, D2, ... later for the 16 digital channels on their MSO.]

I'm fully ready to believe that with LAs and DSOs stuff doesn't line up - that's why I've been on my mini-crusade to either find an affordable MSO or learn to live with 4 channels plus good decoders on an affordable DSO.

I will buy into B1 and B2 as being A-OK so we can save D1 and D2 for the MSO; that's very good.  Thanks

On the rest of this stuff though I'm holding out for symmetry and alignment.

I see no reason why the 1s and 0s shouldn't decode coincident with the waveform.  I don't care if we call high 1 and low 0 or low 1 and high 0 - the 1s and 0s should be visually evident relative to the waveform.

Next, if we use a given polarity to decode one form of information (ASCII, Decimal, HEX, or Binary), we should use that same polarity for the other forms.  Same with LSB/MSB - the same one should be invoked for each decoder used.

Next, the decoder boxes showing any of the forms of information (not just the Binary) should align with the waveform and also with any other displayed decoder box.

I think it is possible with a properly designed scope (ie, with properly designed decoders) to do this.


That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it (until some hits me with an EEV gong that brings me to my senses - which is something I realize could happen any moment now.)  :box:

« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 01:06:30 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Still More .... and a possible conclusion and specific solution
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2013, 01:32:41 pm »
I am pretty sure the polarity shown here decodes high voltage as a 1 and low voltage as a 0 - which I'm betting is the predominant convention for RS232.

Likewise, I'm pretty confident that the Decimal decoder gets it right with a LSB sequence - which happens to be what was orginally specified for ASCII.

So, I'm thinking that when Rigol made the Binary decoder for RS232 they should have made the 1s and 0s align with the waveform (as they clearly did and can) but by using LSB instead of MSB.  This would create consistency (and possibly correctness.)

Again, I could be wrong and probably am - let me know, and why. :)  Thx, EF
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 01:55:34 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2013, 01:54:35 pm »
In my experience with RS-232, on the wire, a logical low is usually represented as high voltage and logical high as low voltage.

This is always true, for RS232.

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In the screendump below, you can see almost 3 cycles where I captured 0x55, 0x00, 0xFF (being repeated) at 8N1.

I don't think so.  Looks like <0x55, 0xFF, 0x00> to me.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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another aye yae yae
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2013, 02:00:54 pm »
Bummer, I can sort of explain the 21, but I am having a hard time with the 121.  This stuff can make your head hurt. |O :-DD
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: New Rigol DS1104Z - First Impressions
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2013, 02:09:30 pm »
So, without further ado I hooked up a PC with up my favorite HyperTerminal ASCII file consisting of all upper case Us so that I could observe some 1s and 0s.  (Thanks again to ALM for turning me on to the extra nice square wave pattern generated with the capital Us.)

Yeah, IMO that's the worst possible test value you could have chosen.   :o  Why?  Because if you manage to generate a stream of back-to-back U's with no timing gaps, what you get is really a square wave!  You literally cannot detect where one character frame ends and the next one starts.  It's clever, but why would you want to use that to test your understanding of a serial data stream?

Start with something simplistic, like a 0x01 value.  That way, the Start and End bits will be more visible, the character frame will be obvious, and you will immediately see that: a) the bit polarity of RS232 data is inverted, and b) the bits are sent out in LSB order.  I.e., it's "upside down, and ass-backwards".
 

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Re: another aye yae yae
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2013, 02:22:54 pm »
Bummer, I can sort of explain the 21, but I am having a hard time with the 121.  This stuff can make your head hurt. |O :-DD

A big part of your problem is that you're trying to figure out a dozen different things at the same time (IMO).  Focus on one at a time, then cross that off your list and move on to the next.

E.g., you're going through convolutions to try and get the decoded frame boxes to line up exactly with the data stream.  But who knows what algorithm Rigol is using there?  Left-alignment, centering, what?  Based on your mish-mash of config settings (some most certainly wrong) trying to make things look the way you think they should, I'm not ready to form any conclusions on Rigol alignment yet. 

[And yes, I agree that the decode boxes should line up with the start and end of the frame for the bit stream.  When they can fit on screen at least.]
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: New Rigol DS1104Z - First Impressions
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2013, 02:36:03 pm »
I wrote:

Start with something simplistic, like a 0x01 value.  That way, the Start and End bits will be more visible, the character frame will be obvious, and you will immediately see that: a) the bit polarity of RS232 data is inverted, and b) the bits are sent out in LSB order.  I.e., it's "upside down, and ass-backwards".

In a bit more detail, what you'll see on screen then will be a leading negative voltage, in the Idle state.  The Start bit will go positive for one bit cell.  Since the data bits are clocked out backwards (0b10000000), next will be the 1-bit, which will be negative.  The remaining seven 0-bits will go positive.  And the frame will be terminated with the Stop bit going negative again.  It will stay negative (Idle) unless/until additional characters are sent.

Until you get your Config settings on the Rigol set properly to reflect that reality, you're going to be confused and spinning your wheels.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2013, 05:17:57 pm »
I appreciate the support from a no doubt considerable distance, really

Let's regroup on a few basics.  My HyperTermnal program specifies 8 data bits, 1 stop, no parity, and there is no mention of a start bit.  (Earlier in my career I saw examples of 7 or 8 data bits sandwiched between a start bit and a stop bit, plus a parity bit, so I get that it is possible.)  In my current setup it isn't clear there is a start bit.

Nonetheless, are you pretty sure I have a start bit in front of each byte?  Either way, as far as I can tell, there is no way on the 1000Z to designate a start bit (or any number of start bits).  So it's either automatically assumed and inserted or there is no start bit.  Only stop bits and parity bits and data bits can be set on the 1000Z.

Frankly, the only thing that I have really focused hard on is finding any combination of the variables that I have to work with that gets the waveform to synchronize with the 1s and 0s - which I have accomplished and which only seems to work with one combination of settings.   (I'm pretty/very sure that I have 8 data bits, 1 stop bit and no parity.  So mostly what is left is polarity and MSB/LSB settings.

Take a look at the last image I posted - it really isn't very far off from what is expected and to be square we've heard from users here who bailed out on Rigol scopes because they found errors in the decoder.

So I think you can assume that while there is a good chance I haven't got all the setting right, there is also a chance (until you get your hands on a 1000Z) that there might be something in need of a firmware adjustment.

I agree, we don't know what Rigol intended, but again, look at the last image and you will see that the image shows what strikingly looks like a high degree of symmetry and alignment between the binary code and the waveform.  Obviously the viewing is limited by what practically fits on the screen, but the last image has what looks like five full bytes.

Also, while the U isn't everyone's favorite, if you notice there were a few other characters in the mix - and again, the waveform spacing and the various strings of 1s and 0s appeared to line up.  Plus the three Us decoded as 85s.  Additionally, check out spacing directly above the 3 consecutive 0's and the 4 consecutive 1's - I don't think it's all that far off.  In fact, I can't see any discrepancies between the waveform and the 1s and 0s.

I'll see if I can get some other characters going - or feel free to post a specific repeating string you like and I'll give it a try.  (The capital Us were something that was picked because they make uniform waveforms and earlier on with my analog scope I was just trying to find the signal to trigger on - I think my problem at that stage was that I had flow control on; when that came off the signal was easier to find/trigger.  So it's just a project legacy thing.)  So far, I've been more focused on ASCII, binary, and decimal than hex.

Net, net:  it might look like I was trying a lot of different stuff - I was - but it was with more than just trial and error, it was with a process of elimnation by isolating variables one at a time.  There really aren't all that many here and they can all be tested in one or more ways.  The main hypothesis that I've held onto that I can't prove is that the 1's and 0's should line up consistently with the the waveform.  If that isn't correct I'm inclined to be less interested in the whole thing.  If it is correct, then I think it should be a relatively small step to get the ASCII, Hex, and Decimal values to decode properly - and if one green box with Binary can line up with the waveforms, they all can.  The process of not only decoding but also aligning the various attributes is both elegant and doable in my book.

Thx again for the help.

 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 06:00:29 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2013, 06:00:13 pm »
My HyperTermnal program specifies 8 data bits, 1 stop, no parity, and there is no mention of a start bit.  (Earlier in my career I saw examples of 7 or 8 data bits sandwiched between a start bit and a stop bit, plus a parity bit, so I get that it is possible.)  In my current setup it isn't clear there is a start bit.

Nonetheless, are you pretty sure I have a start bit in front of each byte?
No, I'm not pretty sure.  I'm absolutely and unequivocally positive:) 

Think about it a sec.  You're sitting there Idling, with no characters being transmitted.  Your voltage level is at, say, -5V.  Then you send out a byte, let's say it's FF, which will also have all bits negative voltages.  With no start bit, nothing happens.  Then you have the Stop bit, which also goes negative.  So nothing at all happened when you sent out an FF?  Illogical.

RS232 isn't self-clocking, so you need to have a framework around the data-frame in the bitstream.  The Start and Stop bit provide that framework.  (And the reason you paid attention to the Stop bits is because there could be 1 or 2.  And parity could be Even, Odd, or None.  So you had to pick, and get those options right.  But there's never anything to decide with the Start bit.  It's always there, and always 1 bit long.)

Quote
Frankly, the only thing that I have really focused hard on is finding any combination of the variables that I have to work with that gets the waveform to synchronize with the 1s and 0s - which I have accomplished and which only seems to work with one combination of settings.   (I'm pretty/very sure that I have 8 data bits, 1 stop bit and no parity.  So mostly what is left is polarity and MSB/LSB settings.
Yes, I understand.  Part of the reason that an 0x55 is a bad choice is it's symmetry.  What happens if you mis-set the polarity, AND the endianism in your Config?  Uh, it winds up being still an 0x55, sort of, due to the double inversion.

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...to be square we've heard from users here who bailed out on Rigol scopes because they found errors in the decoder.

So I think you can assume that while there is a good chance I haven't got all the setting right, there is also a chance (until you get your hands on a 1000Z) that there might be something in need of a firmware adjustment.
I never suggested otherwise.  I wasn't attempting to defend the Rigol... there could be numerous issues.  I'm just saying that until you get your ducks in a row that the oddities you're seeing cannot be sorted out.  If you do something wrong, the results are going to be wrong, even if the Rigol is right.  If you do everything right, then things could still be wrong... but in that case you then know it's an issue with the Rigol.  Comprendo?

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...but again, look at the last image and you will see that the image shows what strikingly looks like a high degree of symmetry and alignment between the binary code and the waveform.  Obviously the viewing is limited by what practically fits on the screen, but the last image has what looks like 3 full bytes.
Yes, but what I was trying to point out is that you achieved that by mis-setting the Config options.

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I'll see if I can get some other characters going - or feel free to post a specific repeating string you like and I'll give it a try.
As I mentioned above, just a string of simple 0x01's (decimal 1's, binary 0b00000001's) would provide a distinctive and unambiguous pattern.  There are certainly others, but that's one where I described the exact on screen voltage pattern that corresponded to it.

Quote
Thx again for the help.
No problemo.  I'm glad to see you digging into it.  Just sorry to see you getting hung up on RS232, which seems a lot simpler (at the logical level) than it really is (at the physical level).  E.g., while TX and Rx are inverted, the Control lines (RTS, CTS, DTR, DSR, etc.) are not.  Once you get on the other side of the line-driver, your levels aren't shifted any more, and the bit polarities aren't inverted.  They're still LSB though.

Someone else suggested you read up on a reference book on RS232, but you may get enough from Wikipedia to clarify a few things.  Jump down to the section on Voltage Levels, and check out the picture there...


« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 06:04:19 pm by Mark_O »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2013, 06:10:30 pm »
Mark_O,

Cool post above, thanks again.

I think we are going to get there.  Thanks for the patience and persistence.  I appreciate it.

Small correction - while you were posting I edited my previous post to say there were 5 rather than 3 bytes visible in the last image.

Ok, I'll buy in that there is always a start bit, but to reconfirm regarding the 1000Z it must be hard coded in some covnentional manner because there isn't anyway in the menu to specifiy anything regarding the start bit.  Perhaps we are seeing the start bit and the stop bit in between each green data bit box?

I need to get my head around this:

"E.g., while TX and Rx are inverted, the Control lines (RTS, CTS, DTR, DSR, etc.) are not.  Once you get on the other side of the line-driver, your levels aren't shifted any more, and the bit polarities aren't inverted.  They're still LSB though"

Are you saying that some of the 1s and 0s in my image might be RTS, CTS, DSR, etc.?  If so, where would they be relative to the data bits and their corresponding waveforms?  Is it possible that the decoder ignores the Control Lines and/or drops those bits on the floor?  (Or perhaps since what I have caught on the scope is just a text file full of mostly Us rather than an actual one-way or two-way transmission between computers there were no Control Line bits at all?)

Thanks, EF
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 06:14:22 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2013, 06:20:16 pm »
I need to get my head around this:

"E.g., while TX and Rx are inverted, the Control lines (RTS, CTS, DTR, DSR, etc.) are not.  Once you get on the other side of the line-driver, your levels aren't shifted any more, and the bit polarities aren't inverted.  They're still LSB though"

Are you saying that some of the 1s and 0s in my image might be RTS, CTS, DSR, etc.?  If so, where would they be relative to the data bits and their corresponding waveforms?  Is it possible that the decoder ignores the Control Lines and/or drops those bits on the floor?  (Or perhaps since what I have caught on the scope is just a text file full of mostly Us rather than an actual one-way or two-way transmission between computers there were no Control Line bits at all?)

No, no.  Those are separate Control lines.  I tried to distinguish them from the Rx and Tx signal lines, but apparently I just confused things further.  Sorry about that. 

[But being able to see those signals (on Channel 3 or 4 of your shiny new scope) can be really handy when tracking down communications handshaking issues, e.g.  I.e., a 2-channel scope can't see more than Rx and Tx.  Or one direction, plus one control line.  A PITA to fudge around.]
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2013, 06:24:12 pm »
A small update - if you change data bits, start bits, or parity bit to anything other than the correct value the scope displays very distinctive purple question marks along the green decoder boxes - so I'm thinking those are set correctly.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2013, 06:40:20 pm »
I need to get my head around this:

"E.g., while TX and Rx are inverted, the Control lines (RTS, CTS, DTR, DSR, etc.) are not.  Once you get on the other side of the line-driver, your levels aren't shifted any more, and the bit polarities aren't inverted.  They're still LSB though"

Are you saying that some of the 1s and 0s in my image might be RTS, CTS, DSR, etc.?  If so, where would they be relative to the data bits and their corresponding waveforms?  Is it possible that the decoder ignores the Control Lines and/or drops those bits on the floor?  (Or perhaps since what I have caught on the scope is just a text file full of mostly Us rather than an actual one-way or two-way transmission between computers there were no Control Line bits at all?)

No, no.  Those are separate Control lines.  I tried to distinguish them from the Rx and Tx signal lines, but apparently I just confused things further.  Sorry about that. 

[But being able to see those signals (on Channel 3 or 4 of your shiny new scope) can be really handy when tracking down communications handshaking issues, e.g.  I.e., a 2-channel scope can't see more than Rx and Tx.  Or one direction, plus one control line.  A PITA to fudge around.]

No worries.  So we have the Control Lines off the table for now.  And yes, I'm very glad to discover every possible use of channels 3 and 4 since I passed on the famous DS2000 (did I mention it would be nice to have the larger screen, nicer nav features, and overall better performance  :) ).  Seriously, we are eliminating possiblities here, which is good.

Something I'd like to figure out is why do the three Us deocode to 1s and 0s and to 85s - yet the other two bytes seem confused in their decoding.  One hypothesis is that since this is just a one way system with no error detection and correction maybe something in the 1s and 0s is getting scrambled on the way to the scope.  Another possiblity is that the 1s and 0s are getting to the scope properly but the decoder is confused for some reason.  If the decoder is confused it's either because I set something wrong (and there really aren't many variables other than parity and LSB/MSB), or ..... drum roll, Rigol's decoder has an issue.

If you are up for it, I'd like to focus on the bytes that don't decode nicely into 10101010 and their companion 85.

Thanks, EF

Hey, small discovery:  My ASCII table lists U as 1010101, not 10101010; which is fair/understandable since ASCII is generally considered to have 7 bits (vs. EBCDIC's 8 bits).  So maybe although my HyperTerminal setting specifies 8 bits and the 1000Z is set for 8 bits we are seeing some "padding" with the extra 0 that is adding some confusion.  I think I'll try again setting both HyperTerminal and the 1000Z to 7 data bits.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2013, 06:45:43 pm »
Record, yes.  Playback, sure.  Analyze, not available on the 1000Z, AFAICT.  (Assuming the documentation is correct.  An owner can confirm or refute that.)  This may be the biggest downside to this unit, since the ability to scan and set markers in a large capture, based on a set of conditions, is a powerful capability on the DS2000 series.  Navigate... just simple step fwd/rev, and fast scroll through the frames (or play back at various speeds).

I'm not sure where you got your info from, Mark, but the DS2000 can't set markers or search through captures (deep memory or individual segments) based on conditions. I wish it could do BOTH of those things - since they (along with an improved EXTERNAL trigger usage) are, IMHO, the main features lacking from the DSO.

What it can do is analyze the difference between segments based on a template and provide a histogramatic result. Is this feature lacking in the DS1000Z series (assuming you have the REC option)?
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2013, 06:49:15 pm »
Ok, I'll buy in that there is always a start bit, but to reconfirm regarding the 1000Z it must be hard coded in some covnentional manner because there isn't anyway in the menu to specifiy anything regarding the start bit.  Perhaps we are seeing the start bit and the stop bit in between each green data bit box?

You are.  Sort of.  Look at the flat green line between each decoded symbol box.  Then look above the the waveform during that interval.  In every case, it appears to be a High, followed by a Low.  Two bit-times.  That's a Stop-bit, followed by a Start-bit, but the polarity is inverted!  (In reality, it should be a Low=Stop and High=Start.  Look at the earlier diagram.)  That suggests a 1-bit skew, since the bits are always toggling during those intervals.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2013, 06:59:07 pm »
I'm not sure where you got your info from, Mark, but the DS2000 can't set markers or search through captures (deep memory or individual segments) based on conditions. I wish it could do BOTH of those things - since they (along with an improved EXTERNAL trigger usage) are, IMHO, the main features lacking from the DSO.

I'm not sure either!  :D  I suppose I could go looking (to find what I read that confused me), but since you have a DS2000 (and are an expert on the subject), there's really not much point.  I do know I was studying details on several different scopes around the same time, and may have gotten one feature from the DS4000, or even an Agilent, confused with the DS2000.

Quote
What it can do is analyze the difference between segments based on a template and provide a histogramatic result. Is this feature lacking in the DS1000Z series (assuming you have the REC option)?

That's a very powerful capability.  Can't you also step between the "error" frames directly (skipping the others)?  That would then essentially be a form of Marker function.

I'll defer to EF, or someone who actually has a DS1000Z to confirm for sure, but as far as the docs are concerned, it has no such capability.  Record, Play, Step, Jump.  That's about it.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2013, 07:07:39 pm »
If you are up for it, I'd like to focus on the bytes that don't decode nicely into 10101010 and their companion 85.

Sounds like a good plan.

Quote
Hey, small discovery:  My ASCII table lists U as 1010101, not 10101010; which is fair/understandable since ASCII is generally considered to have 7 bits (vs. EBCDIC's 8 bits).

It lists it that way because it's sloppy, and is leaving off the leading 0-bit.  It doesn't list it as 10101010, because that would be 0xAA, not 0x55.  And it would NOT be "U".  And ASCII isn't considered to be 7-bits.  It's just that the low 128 entries are defined as standard, and the upper 128 tend to be variable.  It depends on character sets and code pages, and lots of other complex stuff.  But you really should stick with 8-bits.

Quote
So maybe although my HyperTerminal setting specifies 8 bits and the 1000Z is set for 8 bits we are seeing some "padding" with the extra 0 that is adding some confusion.  I think I'll try again setting both HyperTerminal and the 1000Z to 7 data bits.

Nah, don't waste your time with that.  You're just injecting another variable.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2013, 07:13:16 pm »
A small update - if you change data bits, start bits, or parity bit to anything other than the correct value the scope displays very distinctive purple question marks along the green decoder boxes - so I'm thinking those are set correctly.

Yes, and that confirms it does flag error bytes.  You do have those set properly, but I think you meant Stop bits, not Start bits, since there's no setting for the later.  Parity, Stop, and Data bits are good.  It's just the MSB and polarity you have screwed up.   :box:   ;D
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2013, 07:16:10 pm »
That's a very powerful capability.  Can't you also step between the "error" frames directly (skipping the others)?  That would then essentially be a form of Marker function.

Yes, absolutely - and that is indeed handy. But the main lack of the Marker feature is when moving around a single-shot, deep-memory waveform (although my RUU add-on software provides some of that capability).

Quote
I'll defer to EF, or someone who actually has a DS1000Z to confirm for sure, but as far as the docs are concerned, it has no such capability.  Record, Play, Step, Jump.  That's about it.

Good to know - although strange they wouldn't have included the Analyze feature as part of the REC package. Perhaps it's a firmware space issue (or maybe just marketing differentiation)?
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2013, 07:49:17 pm »
...the main lack of the Marker feature is when moving around a single-shot, deep-memory waveform (although my RUU add-on software provides some of that capability).

Yes, I see what you mean.   Two different contexts.  Having an enormous amount of unsegmented data can become a liability, when you have no method to effectively move around in it, post acquisition.  :(

Quote
Quote
I'll defer to EF, or someone who actually has a DS1000Z to confirm for sure, but as far as the docs are concerned, it has no such capability.  Record, Play, Step, Jump.  That's about it.

Good to know - although strange they wouldn't have included the Analyze feature as part of the REC package. Perhaps it's a firmware space issue (or maybe just marketing differentiation)?

I suspect product differentiation.  Just like they left out USB triggering on the 1000Z, but included it on the DS2000.  If the cheaper scope had all the same features, that's one less reason to step up.  Not too surprising, really.
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2013, 08:44:20 pm »
Electro Fan

I've just grabbed a screen shot of a correctly set up rs232 decode and trigger on my DS4K.
H time base is set at 104 µs to have exactly one bit per div (1/9600), it helps to isolate each bit when you have a long burst of 0 or 1's.
RS-232 trigger is set to the start bit to be sure to have the start of the frame at the left of the screen.
This is important as the decoders are starting to decode on what they "see" on the screen, so if for instance you have half a frame cut out of the screen, the decoder will start to try to decode from the first high bit (start bit) it thinks it sees, leading to evident decoding errors for the rest of what is on screen.
This is why it is uttermost important that the rs232 trigger is set correctly.
The accuracy of the decoding is tied to proper triggering and positioning of the frames on screen.

You can also note that the data display is correctly aligned with the "data" content of the frame, it starts at the first bit (LSB), after the start bit, and stops at the end of the last bit (MSB), just before the stop bit (which is MARK, just as the idle time between frames)
And the binary value displayed is perfectly consistent with the bit states of the frame (in reverse reading order of course as the frame is transmitted LSB first (left) and a binary value is read MSB first from left to right)
The data btw is a capital "U" as you seem to be fond of.  :)

It's on a DS4K so the display may look a bit different, but still close enough.

The settings of both trigger and decoder are on "Normal" polarity here because I used a real rs-232 signal +12V for a 0 and -12V for a 1.
The polarity inversion is necessary when you are in the TTL domain, after a MAX232 for instance.
And both are on LSB as RS-232 normally transmits the LSB first.

Hope this helps.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2013, 09:52:35 pm »
A small update - if you change data bits, start bits, or parity bit to anything other than the correct value the scope displays very distinctive purple question marks along the green decoder boxes - so I'm thinking those are set correctly.

Yes, and that confirms it does flag error bytes.  You do have those set properly, but I think you meant Stop bits, not Start bits, since there's no setting for the later.  Parity, Stop, and Data bits are good.  It's just the MSB and polarity you have screwed up.   :box:   ;D

Right - and with just 2 x 2 (MSB and polarity) there are only 4 combinations - and trust me I've been through those 4 a dozen times or more.  So, I think there is something else besides the settings that is at work; maybe signal noise or a Rigol opportunity for a feature enhancement.  I will keep at it until something become more apparent.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2013, 09:55:14 pm »
Ok, I'll buy in that there is always a start bit, but to reconfirm regarding the 1000Z it must be hard coded in some covnentional manner because there isn't anyway in the menu to specifiy anything regarding the start bit.  Perhaps we are seeing the start bit and the stop bit in between each green data bit box?

You are.  Sort of.  Look at the flat green line between each decoded symbol box.  Then look above the the waveform during that interval.  In every case, it appears to be a High, followed by a Low.  Two bit-times.  That's a Stop-bit, followed by a Start-bit, but the polarity is inverted!  (In reality, it should be a Low=Stop and High=Start.  Look at the earlier diagram.)  That suggests a 1-bit skew, since the bits are always toggling during those intervals.

 I can buy into a 1 bit skew; I have been getting some Decimal decodes for my favorite character (capital U) that say 84 instead of 85; leads me to think that the system is just one binary count off somehow.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2013, 09:59:31 pm »
Electro Fan

I've just grabbed a screen shot of a correctly set up rs232 decode and trigger on my DS4K.
H time base is set at 104 µs to have exactly one bit per div (1/9600), it helps to isolate each bit when you have a long burst of 0 or 1's.
RS-232 trigger is set to the start bit to be sure to have the start of the frame at the left of the screen.
This is important as the decoders are starting to decode on what they "see" on the screen, so if for instance you have half a frame cut out of the screen, the decoder will start to try to decode from the first high bit (start bit) it thinks it sees, leading to evident decoding errors for the rest of what is on screen.
This is why it is uttermost important that the rs232 trigger is set correctly.
The accuracy of the decoding is tied to proper triggering and positioning of the frames on screen.

You can also note that the data display is correctly aligned with the "data" content of the frame, it starts at the first bit (LSB), after the start bit, and stops at the end of the last bit (MSB), just before the stop bit (which is MARK, just as the idle time between frames)
And the binary value displayed is perfectly consistent with the bit states of the frame (in reverse reading order of course as the frame is transmitted LSB first (left) and a binary value is read MSB first from left to right)
The data btw is a capital "U" as you seem to be fond of.  :)

It's on a DS4K so the display may look a bit different, but still close enough.

The settings of both trigger and decoder are on "Normal" polarity here because I used a real rs-232 signal +12V for a 0 and -12V for a 1.
The polarity inversion is necessary when you are in the TTL domain, after a MAX232 for instance.
And both are on LSB as RS-232 normally transmits the LSB first.

Hope this helps.

iDevice, Excellent!  I will revisit each of your suggestions when I get back in front of the scope.  I'm off by just enough that I can believe it is related to triggering.  Also, I've been operating at 2400 bps but I can easily crank it up to 9600 bps.  I might be off the air for a while (the rest of life is calling), but I'll let you know what I figure out.  Thanks, EF
 

Offline seronday

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2013, 12:23:21 am »
Electro Fan.

If you set the Decode Polarity to match the data being monitored and select LSB, it should all work for you.
I would also suggest that you have the trigger position at the left of the screen and in Normal mode.
You can use either Edge or RS232 triggering.
See attached screen print.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Rigol DS1074Z Decoding: Rock & Roll
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2013, 02:22:07 am »
Hello EEVers,

First, thanks to all of you who have put up with my learning curve and helped to speed up the process.

It's one small step rather than one giant leap but check out the attached photo.

All done with LSB and overall consistent decoder settings on Decode1 and Decode2.

I think the decoder pads the front of the ASCII code with a 0; the ASCII table says a capital U is 1010101

Likewise the ASCII table specifies that a capital U is 85 in Decimal and 55 in HEX.

Stay tuned for more decoding  :-+
 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 02:37:41 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2013, 02:36:08 am »
iDevice, nicely done first post.   :-+  Welcome.

RS-232 trigger is set to the start bit to be sure to have the start of the frame at the left of the screen.

This is important as the decoders are starting to decode on what they "see" on the screen, so if for instance you have half a frame cut out of the screen, the decoder will start to try to decode from the first high bit (start bit) it thinks it sees, leading to evident decoding errors for the rest of what is on screen.

This is why it is uttermost important that the rs232 trigger is set correctly.   The accuracy of the decoding is tied to proper triggering and positioning of the frames on screen.

This is a good point to remember.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2013, 02:51:54 am »
If you set the Decode Polarity to match the data being monitored and select LSB, it should all work for you.
I would also suggest that you have the trigger position at the left of the screen and in Normal mode.

Yep, you have it correct as well.  It would be a bit easier to see the alignment between the signal voltage and the decoded byte frames if you zoomed in a little (not so many frames on screen).  In particular, zooming on the "1" would be instructive, since it's NOT symmetric.

EF still has his settings wrong, but is managing to get "U" anyway, due solely to the symmetry.  If he used a different character, he wouldn't be so lucky.  ;)  I've been telling him that for 3 pages now  |O but he doesn't seem interested.  :D
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2013, 03:05:22 am »
What it [DS2000] can do is analyze the difference between segments based on a template and provide a histogramatic result. Is this feature lacking in the DS1000Z series (assuming you have the REC option)?

In addition to omitting the post-acquisition Analyze function, the 1000Z also lacks the Time Tag for each frame, and cannot run in Open or Continuous mode (i.e., wraparound captures).  [As always... according to the manual, since I don't have a unit here.]

The reason I keep bringing up the manual proviso is because Rigol frequently gets things wrong there.   :o  One very obvious example is the 1000Z SPI decode chapter, which they obviously copied out of the DS2000 manual (2-channel limited), rather than the DS4000 (4-channel option).  And both of them refer to SCL and SDA signals, which is more appropriate to I2C than SPI.  :(

Not only is this lame, but it's very confusing to beginners, who don't know what they're doing yet, and will be baffled temporarily.  Even when you DO know what you're doing, it leads to a  :wtf: moment while reading the documents.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Decoding: Rock & Roll
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2013, 03:20:11 am »
...check out the attached photo.

All done with LSB and overall consistent decoder settings on Decode1 and Decode2.

I think the decoder pads the front of the ASCII code with a 0; the ASCII table says a capital U is 1010101

Likewise the ASCII table specifies that a capital U is 85 in Decimal and 55 in HEX.

The only reason it looks like it's working is due to your choice of "U", and the bitwise symmetry it possesses.  You still have the Polarity set wrong.  Check out seronday to see the proper setting.  Just change to a different character in Hyperterm and watch it fall apart before your eyes.  :D

As for "I think the decoder pads the front of the ASCII code with a 0; the ASCII table says a capital U is 1010101", the decoder isn't padding anything.  The leading 0 is there.  The problem is that you're using a 7-bit only ASCII table, which drops the 0 bit from the front of each code.  Then getting yourself confused when the first bit you see isn't a 1-bit.   :scared:   :palm:
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:22:10 am by Mark_O »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2013, 04:45:05 am »
If you set the Decode Polarity to match the data being monitored and select LSB, it should all work for you.
I would also suggest that you have the trigger position at the left of the screen and in Normal mode.

Yep, you have it correct as well.  It would be a bit easier to see the alignment between the signal voltage and the decoded byte frames if you zoomed in a little (not so many frames on screen).  In particular, zooming on the "1" would be instructive, since it's NOT symmetric.

EF still has his settings wrong, but is managing to get "U" anyway, due solely to the symmetry.  [color=blue]If he used a different character, he wouldn't be so lucky.  ;)[/color]   I've been telling him that for 3 pages now  |O but he doesn't seem interested.  :D

I don't know why a teacher would call his students lucky but I'm ok with it if you take credit for any luck.
Enjoy the the non-U characters  :-DD
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2013, 10:04:11 am »
One problem that is recurring here is the lack of defined sync'ing points.  It's not possible to lock on to the data in mid stream.  The attachments are all mid stream.

UARTs rely on a START-STOP pairing, everything in between is assumed to fit, but these two bits look no different to any other bits in the stream.  The way the UARTs sync up for a byte frame is by having a dead period of continuous idling STOP bits.  If this idle is longer than a frame then there is no further chance the receiving end can miss a START bit when it comes.

After this they can sustain a long burst of back to back frames with no gaps.  But all frames still consist of a START and STOP pair.


PS:  It would seem I was wrong about polarity.  RS232 is negative polarity at the line driver output stage, not at the intermediate logic level stage.  A STOP bit is low (logic 1) while a START bit is high (logic 0).  Wikipedia has a good diagram - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rs232_oscilloscope_trace.svg


Evan
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2013, 10:09:20 am »
RS422 and RS485 are non-inverting, in that the +line is high when representing a one and low when representing a zero.
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2013, 10:27:31 am »
iDevice, nicely done first post.   :-+  Welcome.

Thanks, I've been lurking this forum for a long time but didn't have time or something sufficiently interesting to say up to now...
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2013, 10:44:14 am »
One problem that is recurring here is the lack of defined sync'ing points.  It's not possible to lock on to the data in mid stream.  The attachments are all mid stream.

Yep, that's exactly why I insisted on the fact that it is important to use the appropriate trigger for each decoder.
I had the same impression as you that Electro fan is simply using edge triggering by looking at his attachments.
As far as I discovered, there is no link between the trigger system and the decoders, so the decoders are just looking at what they see first on screen, but by using proper trigger and trigger point positioning, you can guarantee that the first frame visible is correctly interpreted by the decoder because what it sees first is the edge of the start bit.
By using edge triggering, you can achieve the same with luck and proper holdoff, but why not use the right tool...

Besides, by using protocol triggering, you can also use data pattern recognition, which is invaluable in real day to day debugging as you can trig not only on a proper frame, but also on the higher protocol level layer, like an escape sequence or on good old STX ETX codes. 
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2013, 04:09:34 am »
Just reporting in - progess has been slow but steady (regular).  :)

Looks like everything works fine (except occasionally the operator).  |O :-DD

This scope is very cool (although I'm still wondering how much cooler the DS2000 might be).  :)

THANKS to Everyone for all the help - this is a GREAT forum/web site. :-+ :-+
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:17:04 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline creyc

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2013, 04:32:20 am »
I ordered one from Tequipment the other day. This will be my first 'real' scope!  8)

Now the long annoying waiting part...
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2013, 06:20:43 am »
Just reporting in - progess has been slow but steady (regular).  :)

Glad to hear you're not suffering from problems with irregularity.  ;)

Quote
Looks like everything works fine (except occasionally the operator).  |O :-DD

Good to hear it didn't turn out to be problems with the Rigol decoders, that you ran into on Day 1.  And your traces are looking good now.   :-+  Everything is lining up, you can see the Stop and Start bits in between (so you don't have to take my word for it that a Start bit exists), and you can see both the polarity inversion and bit-reversal.  In the process, you got to learn a lot about RS232.

Quote
This scope is very cool (although I'm still wondering how much cooler the DS2000 might be).  :)

I wouldn't dwell on it.  Most of the additional "coolness" is just slightly better performance on a few parameters.  I.e., more of the same, but a bit better.  There are a handful of things the 1000Z lacks, but you may not notice them for some time, and it's harder to miss something you never had.  I suspect you'll find yourself happy you've got a 3rd (and 4th) channel available, before you lament the missing features.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2013, 02:50:45 pm »

Quote
This scope is very cool (although I'm still wondering how much cooler the DS2000 might be).  :)

I wouldn't dwell on it.  Most of the additional "coolness" is just slightly better performance on a few parameters.  I.e., more of the same, but a bit better.  There are a handful of things the 1000Z lacks, but you may not notice them for some time, and it's harder to miss something you never had.  I suspect you'll find yourself happy you've got a 3rd (and 4th) channel available, before you lament the missing features.

Yep, I understand/agree for the most part - the one feature I might be missing more than the extra screen space and performance is the ease of accessibility and ease of use and possibly/probably fuller functionality/features related to record, playback, navigate, analyze.  Once you have a basic grip on what you are looking at (why it renders the way it does), then it might be nice to record it, find it, and examine it with more/better tools.  Hard to say without having a DS2000 to play with.  But, the DS1000Z is a very nice piece of equipment and I feel fortunte to have entered the market for a scope when this level of price/performance has come about.  Thanks again for all the good educational support!
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Rigol DS11104Z Decoding Event Table
« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2013, 07:45:40 am »
Here are a couple photos showing the scope decoding the word "characters" which was part of a sentence made in Notepad and transmitted as a file from within HyperTerminal.  In the second photo you can see the Event Table.
 
In case anyone wants to decode RS232 but doesn't have a PC with a RS232 port handy, here is a USB to RS232 converter that seems to be working well:

http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-RS-232-Serial-Converter-TU-S9/dp/B0007T27H8

There have been some discussions about how some converters don't play nicely with PCs unless you have the right drivers.  The TRENDnet converter simply plugged into a USB port and set itself to Com 7 - no driver needed.  When I opened HyperTerminal it gave me a chance to select Com 7 and that was it.  No fuss, no muss.  YMMV.

I have a ton of feature discovery/learning remaining but so far the DS1104Z is operating very nicely.  Knock on wood.   
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 07:52:04 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2013, 10:27:13 am »
Looks like everything works fine (except occasionally the operator).  |O :-DD

Heh, you know the scope itself can do screen captures to a USB drive.  ;)


Evan
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2013, 12:44:37 pm »
Heh, you know the scope itself can do screen captures to a USB drive.  ;)

Yeah, just plug in a memory stick, and press the Printer button.  But maybe EF has a camera hookup that makes photos easier to transfer?

In any event, uploading PNGs would be 10-12 times faster, and use 10-12x less space on the server.

Quote from: Electro Fan
In the second photo you can see the Event Table.

Thanks for this one, EF!  I really wondered why they'd leave this out, but there's not a single word in the manual mentioning the Event Table function in any way, shape, or form!   :palm:  Good way to downgrade your own products, by omitting info on their capabilities.  But then, I've harped on the inadequacy of the 1000Z User Guide before, when mentioning the horrible chapter on SPI decoding.

Rigol could benefit from spending some time upgrading their user documents.  For the 1000Z, they STILL have no Programming Guide on any of their sites.   :rant:
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 12:48:07 pm by Mark_O »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2013, 04:47:20 pm »
Looks like everything works fine (except occasionally the operator).  |O :-DD

Heh, you know the scope itself can do screen captures to a USB drive.  ;)


Evan

Yep, but thanks - suggestions ALWAYS welcome here.  It is as Mark_O says, just a matter of it being easier to get a photo, preview it and qualify it, and then transmit it to the computer.  I actually downsize the image a bit on the PC before uploading but if I am being less than green on my use of resources I guess I could downsize more.  (Mostly just trying to preserve image quality to show the somewhat small text and graphics on the small screen.)  I don't notice much/any hit on speed (I have plenty of bandwidth on this end).  I guess even when bandwidth and storage are marching toward nearly free that 10x would be a useful improvement to attain.  No promises, but I'll look into it.

What I could use is a ton of help with is figuring out the Record functionality.  Any 1000Z basic Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 type suggestions for Record and Playback would be great.  Thanks!

Also, and this is a BIG one for any potential 1000Z buyers - the scope starts all the options right out of the box.  So, I'm rapidly eating my trial hours.  I think Rigol should have let a new user experience the basic scope, figure out the fundamental theory of operation, and then let the user invoke one option at a time as and when needed, but that is not the case.  So, anything anyone thinks would be good to explore with the options sooner than later (like today/tomorrow/soon), I'm definitely open to any suggestions ASAP.  For example, the Record/Playback function I think is an option.  Likewise the Deep Memory is an option.  Anything that would help me understand/better appreciate the utility of these two would be great to hear about ASAP.  Please let me know and I'll follow-up and report back.  I think I've pretty well ground down enough of the decoding and triggering to know those are very useful.  Not so sure yet (at least for my uses) how much I would miss or want the deep memory but I'm open to finding a reason for having it.  I'm very sure that Record and Playback could be highly useful - I just haven't found the way the controls are buried in the menu system to be real user friendly - but as we know, I'm just figuring out lots of stuff so I'm going to assume it's my lack of understanding regarding the scope and not the scope design.  But if possible I'd like to figure out the value of Deep Memory and Record Playback as my next areas to explore over the weekend.  Thanks  :-+ 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 05:01:11 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #92 on: November 09, 2013, 04:55:11 pm »
Heh, you know the scope itself can do screen captures to a USB drive.  ;)

Yeah, just plug in a memory stick, and press the Printer button.  But maybe EF has a camera hookup that makes photos easier to transfer?

In any event, uploading PNGs would be 10-12 times faster, and use 10-12x less space on the server.

Quote from: Electro Fan
In the second photo you can see the Event Table.

Thanks for this one, EF!  I really wondered why they'd leave this out, but there's not a single word in the manual mentioning the Event Table function in any way, shape, or form!   :palm:  Good way to downgrade your own products, by omitting info on their capabilities.  But then, I've harped on the inadequacy of the 1000Z User Guide before, when mentioning the horrible chapter on SPI decoding.

Rigol could benefit from spending some time upgrading their user documents.  For the 1000Z, they STILL have no Programming Guide on any of their sites.   :rant:

Rigol should offer a program whereby people who send them good product suggestions, produt test results, QC feedback, or better documentation in various languages get a thank you in the form of feature licenses for their products.  They could accelertate their pace of innovation and substantially improve their documenation (manuals, web site FAQs, etc.) in return for not much.  They could create a forum within a forum right here at EEV where they could moderate/answer questions/direct discussions.  Many people here work for the love of the work and Rigol would get better products and documentation, and then we would get the improved products and documentation.  Big Win-Win.
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2013, 05:11:37 pm »
Yep, but thanks - suggestions ALWAYS welcome here.  It is as Mark_O says, just a matter of it being easier to get a photo, preview it and qualify it, and then transmit it to the computer.
It's even simpler by grabbing the screen directly to your PC via LAN, that's how I do it.
You can then easily annotate it and save as png.
I use the utility written by an EEVblog member. I'm not at home right now, so I don't remember the name exactly but it's RUU...something, for Rigol Utility ?
Maybe someone else can point to the thread ?
Will update if I find it back, but I have to leave for a few hours right now.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2013, 06:56:55 pm »
It's even simpler by grabbing the screen directly to your PC via LAN, that's how I do it.
You can then easily annotate it and save as png.
I use the utility written by an EEVblog member. I'm not at home right now, so I don't remember the name exactly but it's RUU...something, for Rigol Utility ?
Maybe someone else can point to the thread ?
That would be marmad's (excellent) Rigol Ultravision Utility (RUU).

I don't know how well it works with the 1000Z, since it was designed for the 2000/4000/6000, but I'd guess it would handle at least the core basics well.  Channels 3 and 4?  No idea.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2013, 07:12:08 pm »
It is as Mark_O says, just a matter of it being easier to get a photo, preview it and qualify it, and then transmit it to the computer.  I actually downsize the image a bit on the PC before uploading but if I am being less than green on my use of resources I guess I could downsize more.  (Mostly just trying to preserve image quality to show the somewhat small text and graphics on the small screen.)  I don't notice much/any hit on speed (I have plenty of bandwidth on this end).  I guess even when bandwidth and storage are marching toward nearly free that 10x would be a useful improvement to attain.  No promises, but I'll look into it.

I wouldn't worry about it.  If it's convenient for you, it works for us.  I've appreciated seeing your test screens in detail, so I wouldn't bother trying to shrink or compress things more.  I think that Evan was just trying to suggest something you may not be aware of yet .

Quote
What I could use is a ton of help with is figuring out the Record functionality.  Any 1000Z basic Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 type suggestions for Record and Playback would be great.  Thanks!

It's not as difficult as it might appear at first.  Let's say you had some waveform or event you were already capturing, so your triggers were already set.  After you enter Record mode, you get to decide how much info to capture on each trigger, and how many such bursts (frames) to capture.  Naturally the two interact, and are related inversely.  If you want more frames, then you get less duration, or slower samples.  You can also specify an extra delay, essentially a Holdoff, between frames... if you need to expand your capture time interval longer.  This "ignores" a chunk of time between each frame, thus not letting you observe every occurrence, but capture for longer times (potentially hours, days, etc.).

I can't say much more because I can't explore the Menu options myself, and the User "Manual" has NO screen shots of Menu options at all (and really poor explanations of what they do document... they jumble lots of record and play topics all together).  But hey!  Maybe they  do provide the Time Tag option, but just didn't bother to document it in the 1000Z manual, as they did on the rest of the series.

Quote
So, anything anyone thinks would be good to explore with the options sooner than later (like today/tomorrow/soon), I'm definitely open to any suggestions ASAP.  For example, the Record/Playback function I think is an option.  Likewise the Deep Memory is an option.
...
Not so sure yet (at least for my uses) how much I would miss or want the deep memory but I'm open to finding a reason for having it.  ...  But if possible I'd like to figure out the value of Deep Memory and Record Playback as my next areas to explore over the weekend.  Thanks  :-+

Deep Memory is a bit of a misnomer, IMO.  Here it's really Deep(er) Memory.  You already get 12M samples which can be split to 6M or 3M per channel.  That's pretty huge to start with!  The expanded Memory option simply doubles all those numbers.  So for a similar situation, you could sample twice as fast (more time rez), or for twice as long (more time visible).
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 07:14:36 pm by Mark_O »
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2013, 09:06:58 pm »
That would be marmad's (excellent) Rigol Ultravision Utility (RUU).
Yes that's it, thanks.

Quote
I don't know how well it works with the 1000Z, since it was designed for the 2000/4000/6000, but I'd guess it would handle at least the core basics well.  Channels 3 and 4?  No idea.
I guess it was designed for the 2000 as it doesn't support channel 3 & 4 on the 4000 either but other than that it sort of works, so I guess that like you say, it should support at least basic features of the 1000Z if Rigol is consistent with it's SCPI implementation.
Now of course it also means installing all the NI VISA and Ultra Sigma bloatware... :rant:
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2013, 09:40:48 pm »
Now of course it also means installing all the NI VISA and Ultra Sigma bloatware... :rant:

Really?  You have to install all that crap just for a simple USB port driver?  Or is that for the LXI network interface?
 

Offline iDevice

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2013, 10:22:20 pm »
Really?  You have to install all that crap just for a simple USB port driver?  Or is that for the LXI network interface?
Well AFAIK, whatever the interface, you still need the VISA drivers. The advantage is that it virtualizes the instruments by adding an abstraction layer so you can manage them with more or less standard SCPI commands, but you have to install almost a gig of crap...
Now of course in you are wealthy enough to afford to buy a Labview license, it's mandatory anyway, but most of us just have to live with all that shit for just a few minutes use now and then.
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2013, 06:54:10 am »
I couldn't get the LXI stuff to install under Wine so I'm stuck with USB access at this stage.  However, I haven't even tried ftp or http as yet; but presumably they aren't an option.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 07:00:26 am by evanh »
 

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2013, 06:59:25 am »
It is as Mark_O says, just a matter of it being easier to get a photo, preview it and qualify it, and then transmit it to the computer.  I actually downsize the image a bit on the PC before uploading but if I am being less than green on my use of resources I guess I could downsize more.  (Mostly just trying to preserve image quality to show the somewhat small text and graphics on the small screen.)  I don't notice much/any hit on speed (I have plenty of bandwidth on this end).  I guess even when bandwidth and storage are marching toward nearly free that 10x would be a useful improvement to attain.  No promises, but I'll look into it.

I wouldn't worry about it.  If it's convenient for you, it works for us.  I've appreciated seeing your test screens in detail, so I wouldn't bother trying to shrink or compress things more.  I think that Evan was just trying to suggest something you may not be aware of yet .

It probably is worth pointing out it does impact the website.  These files have to be sent to everyone that views them.  And the screen "prints" are a fraction of the file size of the jpegs and have no lossiness at all.  100% reproduction.
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2013, 01:03:33 pm »
Got my replacement scope back today  :-+ Guys at Emona Australia are fantastic to deal with. I'm glad I bought locally  ;)

I forgot to mention earlier, but my -S version came with 2 BNC to BNC cables ~60cm in length. Rigol doesn't list them on the packaging contents or the manual. They're not amazing BNC cables or anything, but nice to have if you don't already have some!

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #102 on: November 13, 2013, 04:12:05 pm »
Got my replacement scope back today  :-+ Guys at Emona Australia are fantastic to deal with. I'm glad I bought locally  ;)

That's pretty good turnaround.  IIRC, that was only about 10 days?

Quote
I forgot to mention earlier, but my -S version came with 2 BNC to BNC cables ~60cm in length.

Handy, and very user considerate.

One question about the -S that I think I know the answer on, but the function generator has no lin/log sweep, does it?  It's not mentioned in the manual, but that's no proof.
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2013, 03:52:19 am »
I don't remember seeing an option for sweep. Might be hidden in the arb waveform section. I haven't taken a good look at that yet.

Replacement arrived two days after they received my return package :)

Offline evanh

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2013, 03:28:31 am »
By sweep I presume you mean automatically range through the octaves over time by having the waveform adjust (or the timebase) on each repeat of the waveform?  Definitely can't do that from the control panel.  Might be a possibility via remote control.
 

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2013, 02:18:26 pm »
A little something I noticed yesterday when playing around with the decode options.

You can select two decoders at once, but by default, the location on the screen where they display overlaps. You need to move one of them using the options menu so you can see both. At first glance, it might seem like you're only allowed one at a time  ::)

Offline JBR48

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #106 on: December 09, 2014, 01:07:37 pm »
Perhaps a stupid question, but I do not get the screenshot via USB to work. I think the problem is that none of my USB sticks are recognized by my Rigol MSO1104Z. If I stick a USB stick in the front panel, nothing happens.
 

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z-S - Random use videos
« Reply #107 on: December 20, 2014, 05:29:31 am »
Perhaps a stupid question, but I do not get the screenshot via USB to work. I think the problem is that none of my USB sticks are recognized by my Rigol MSO1104Z. If I stick a USB stick in the front panel, nothing happens.

Needs to be formatted with a FAT filesystem not NTFS, otherwise the rigol won't pick it up.


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