EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: MacMeter on April 05, 2017, 03:40:59 pm
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Met a temporary worker on recent job that said he bought 2 Rigol DS1102E scopes (used I assume), and would sell me one for $50. As he went on vacation for a week I don't have anymore details on it yet, other then a photo he texted me. I read all the old posts here about 7-8 years old now and had a few questions.
First, I've never owned an oscilloscope before, and don't have the electronics background or education to make an educated opinion on them. My thoughts were that since this model was well regarded in its day, and is still being sold new for approximately $300, that if it's in good working condition, it might be a good value at $50, to learn with.
As of this writing I'm not sure if the original test leads are supplied, but it seems the originals or updated leads can still be purchased, I've read it's important to match the leads with the scope, so I assume original or matching leads are a "must"?
I'm also totally ignorant on how to test if an old digital scope is still accurate, and if not if there is an inexpensive option to have these discount Chinese branded Rigol scopes recalibrated?
Does buying this OLD model scope for $50 make sense to learn on and do simple measurements seem like a good idea?
Thanks for the help!
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Definitely worth the $50. I won a bunch from the auction and have sold them with p6100 probes and power cable only for $160-$250 depending mostly on cosmetic condition. It is definitely a decent enough beginner scope as long as it does work.
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50$ is suspiciously low
Are they in good working condition? Or does he sell them "as is"? Do you trust him?
Keep in mind that they tend to have bouncy encoders. If this is their only problem, you can replace those yourself easily.
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Definitely worth the $50. I won a bunch from the auction and have sold them with p6100 probes and power cable only for $160-$250 depending mostly on cosmetic condition. It is definitely a decent enough beginner scope as long as it does work.
Assuming I don't have to buy leads, how can I test if it's still accurate or needs calibration?
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50$ is suspiciously low
Are they in good working condition? Or does he sell them "as is"? Do you trust him?
Keep in mind that they tend to have bouncy encoders. If this is their only problem, you can replace those yourself easily.
I only trust that a new person looking to get into the work field I'm in would NOT attempt to rip me off. He simply said he does not need two of them, and I assume he got them both at such a good price that he is willing to sell me one to help me get started with scopes. Even if I had it in my hands, knowing nothing about them, makes me a poor judge.
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Definitely worth the $50. I won a bunch from the auction and have sold them with p6100 probes and power cable only for $160-$250 depending mostly on cosmetic condition. It is definitely a decent enough beginner scope as long as it does work.
Assuming I don't have to buy leads, how can I test if it's still accurate or needs calibration?
You can start with the User Manual. You should be able to remove all probes and do an auto-calibrate.
There is a 1 kHz probe compensation output and if you probe it, you should get a square wave with a frequency of 1 kHz at 3V peak-to-peak. Pick a convenient V/div and Time/div and see how the waveform looks. You can also use the Vp-p and Freq measurement capability.
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Definitely worth the $50. I won a bunch from the auction and have sold them with p6100 probes and power cable only for $160-$250 depending mostly on cosmetic condition. It is definitely a decent enough beginner scope as long as it does work.
Assuming I don't have to buy leads, how can I test if it's still accurate or needs calibration?
Assuming you have the probes, you could just do a quick look at using the test signal on the scope. Just make sure that looks acceptable and change a few settings here and there to see if everything works as expected.
Page 18 here has some info:
https://cdn-shop.adafruit.com/datasheets/Users+Guide+DS1000E.pdf
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Thanks everyone for the SUPER Quick responses. I have to wait a week till the seller is back in town, but I'll report back when I get it. Figure I don't have much to lose at the price for my first scope, even though I'm sure there has been many improvements over the past 7-8 years in scopes, but hopefully I'll be able to learn with it, and do some basic stuff.
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$50 is much cheaper than most of them went for in the ITT Tech auctions and buyers were not able to test units before bidding. I was extremely lucky, but most of the resellers on eBay that acquired these from the same auction are making much less profit than one might expect. My word of caution would be that of the 23 I won, aside from a few with some cracked/missing knobs and another bent external trigger bnc, a single unit had an intermittent fault with the display. Was glad I always test a second time before shipping. Hope it works out for you :)
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Assuming you have the probes, you could [...]
At $50, I would not be surprised if it comes without probes. Actually, I would be surprised if probes were included. $50 would still be a favorable price, even for the bare scope. Probes are easily available via ebay etc., either used or low-cost Chinese no-names.
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Assuming you have the probes, you could [...]
At $50, I would not be surprised if it comes without probes. Actually, I would be surprised if probes were included. $50 would still be a favorable price, even for the bare scope. Probes are easily available via ebay etc., either used or low-cost Chinese no-names.
I won't know about the leads for a week, but from what I've read, the leads are supposed to MATCH the scope, not sure in what ways though. The reviews from years a go, indicated the included leads were not great, but at the price point were at least OK. I figure for $50 for just the scope, I could attempt to find new original leads, or buy better ones if I knew how to source better compatible ones, REMEMBER, I know zero about this topic, but do want to begin my education.
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No need to match probes to the scope. Just get a $10 pair of p6100 probes from eBay and you'll be all set.
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Does buying this OLD model scope for $50 make sense to learn on and do simple measurements seem like a good idea?
Yes!
$50 is a bargain for a working DS1102E. It's easily worth two or three times more than that.
I won't know about the leads for a week, but from what I've read, the leads are supposed to MATCH the scope
Not true for basic oscilloscopes like this.
For 100MHz you can buy $10 eBay probes, no problem.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/pos-ebay-%27scope-probes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/pos-ebay-%27scope-probes/)
(or spend more if you want)
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$50 is a good deal for just about any working oscilloscope, except for perhaps some old low end boat anchors or <20MHz analog scopes. Even most of the little toy DSOs that are under 1MHz bandwidth cost more than that.
I've never bought a scope that came with probes. A good set of probes can cost as much or more than the scope. A lot of the cheap Chinese probes are junk and do not perform anywhere near as well as specified. A good quality probe can make the difference between frustration and pleasing to use, trustworthy measurements.
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$50 is a good deal for just about any working oscilloscope, except for perhaps some old low end boat anchors or <20MHz analog scopes. Even most of the little toy DSOs that are under 1MHz bandwidth cost more than that.
I've never bought a scope that came with probes. A good set of probes can cost as much or more than the scope. A lot of the cheap Chinese probes are junk and do not perform anywhere near as well as specified. A good quality probe can make the difference between frustration and pleasing to use, trustworthy measurements.
Thanks, if it does not come with probes, I'll do more homework, as well as read the link provided in the previous post. Just wanted to make sure I was not locked into finding original ones for compatibility reasons, of which I have NO experience, hence coming here first!
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A lot of the cheap Chinese probes are junk and do not perform anywhere near as well as specified. A good quality probe can make the difference between frustration and pleasing to use, trustworthy measurements.
The ubiquitous Chinese p6100 probes are actually quite good. They are just fine up to 100 MHz and maybe beyond. They have been discussed here before and their performance verified . See HERE (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheapest-100mhz-oscilloscope-probes-hands-on-review/).
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If you're just starting out, you can get by with a cheap probe to learn how to use the scope. When you start wanting to take trustworthy measurements beyond a few MHz and are relying on the thing though you may want to start looking around for a deal on something from a reputable brand. Probes that have inadequate bandwidth can lie to you about the rise time and peak of fast rising signals or cause ringing that is not otherwise present in the circuit you are probing. In a pinch you can make your own probe that will work, maybe not great but you'll get a signal into a scope. Some applications don't even use a probe, it's possible (with care) to couple signals directly into the scope. Probes and probing technique is a whole new can of worms that could fill a book.
Edit: Those P6100 probes mentioned above do look quite good, but just be careful because there is a lot of junk out there. Sometimes you get clones of clones and not all are created equally. That's the biggest problem with the generic Chinese stuff, the quality is so variable, you might buy an item that is excellent and then buy another apparently identical item and find out that it's trash.
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A lot of the cheap Chinese probes are junk and do not perform anywhere near as well as specified. A good quality probe can make the difference between frustration and pleasing to use, trustworthy measurements.
The ubiquitous Chinese p6100 probes are actually quite good. They are just fine up to 100 MHz and maybe beyond. They have been discussed here before and their performance verified . See HERE (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheapest-100mhz-oscilloscope-probes-hands-on-review/).
Thanks, will check those out, as it probably doesn't make sense to spend more then the cost of the used scope on probes, as long as they are equal to the task. I've finally learned the importance of leads when I bought the EEVBlog BM235 meter.
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As can be seen in the thread I linked to in my post, the bandwidth and performance of those probes is more than adequate for that scope.
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As can be seen in the thread I linked to in my post, the bandwidth and performance of those probes is more than adequate for that scope.
I assume since the scope is two channels and originally came with two sets, I'd need TWO, if the scope does not come with any, or they made need replacement anyway, so these seem to fit my starter package:
https://www.amazon.com/Sumnacon-P6100-Sensitivity-Oscilloscope-Probe/dp/B00XJH2M02/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1491438377&sr=8-2&keywords=p6100+probe (https://www.amazon.com/Sumnacon-P6100-Sensitivity-Oscilloscope-Probe/dp/B00XJH2M02/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1491438377&sr=8-2&keywords=p6100+probe)
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Yep, those look fine.
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As can be seen in the thread I linked to in my post, the bandwidth and performance of those probes is more than adequate for that scope.
Exactly.
Most have no idea where P6100 probes come from as their manufacturer is somewhat obscure and doesn't push their own barrow however they are one of the largest Asian probe manufactures and specialize in scope probes so have a pretty good idea what they are doing. There range is quite large too.
As can be seen in the thread I linked to in my post, the bandwidth and performance of those probes is more than adequate for that scope.
I assume since the scope is two channels and originally came with two sets, I'd need TWO, if the scope does not come with any, or they made need replacement anyway, so these seem to fit my starter package:
https://www.amazon.com/Sumnacon-P6100-Sensitivity-Oscilloscope-Probe/dp/B00XJH2M02/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1491438377&sr=8-2&keywords=p6100+probe (https://www.amazon.com/Sumnacon-P6100-Sensitivity-Oscilloscope-Probe/dp/B00XJH2M02/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1491438377&sr=8-2&keywords=p6100+probe)
Yep, that's the probes BUT they are rebrands, not the original brand. See my post above.
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Slowly down the rabbit hole I go, just watched an old Dave video in one of the linked threads on test leads, the one about low bandwidth in the "1x" mode. Since I never owned or used a scope, not sure how often one uses the 1x setting compared to the 10x setting, but it's sure a big difference in bandwidth compared to the scopes 100MHz rating, if it's important?
Here is the spec on the Amazon cheap leads: "Bandwidth: X1: DC- 6MHz ; X10: DC- 100MHz". COST $14.00
Specs for Rigol PVP2150: 1X/35MHz, 10X/150MHz, one/two Probes Kit. COST $35.00
I could certainly spring for the Rigol leads if the difference between "6MHz", and "35MHz" in the 1x mode is an important consideration?
Thanks again folks for all the help!
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Slowly down the rabbit hole I go, just watched an old Dave video in one of the linked threads on test leads, the one about low bandwidth in the "1x" mode. Since I never owned or used a scope, not sure how often one uses the 1x setting compared to the 10x setting, but it's sure a big difference in bandwidth compared to the scopes 100MHz rating, if it's important?
Here is the spec on the Amazon cheap leads: "Bandwidth: X1: DC- 6MHz ; X10: DC- 100MHz". COST $14.00
Specs for Rigol PVP2150: 1X/35MHz, 10X/150MHz, one/two Probes Kit. COST $35.00
I could certainly spring for the Rigol leads if the difference between "6MHz", and "35MHz" in the 1x mode is an important consideration?
Thanks again folks for all the help!
What's more important to know is the difference in capacitive loading on the circuit (DUT) between 1x and 10x and how this might effect a measurement. For now all you need to know is it's preferable to always use 10x unless higher resolution measurements are required.
By all means get a better set of probes if you think you need them but get 10x fixed ones and use the cheapo's for everyday knock around work.
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Absolute bargain at $50!
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I could certainly spring for the Rigol leads if the difference between "6MHz", and "35MHz" in the 1x mode is an important consideration
IMO it's not.
For 2 reasons:
1) you'll almost always want to use the 10x setting. Only with very low level signals will using the 1x make sense.
2) the numbers you site are nominal values which may not reflect the true bandwidth. Again referencing the theard on the P6100s, their true bandwidth easily exceeds their nameplate rating.
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Since I never owned or used a scope, not sure how often one uses the 1x setting compared to the 10x setting
I've never used 1x mode in several years of 'scope ownership.
It's almost a waste of time to buy switchable 1x/10x probes, a fixed 10x probe will do 99.9999% of everything.
Fixed 10x probes are much safer if you're going to be poking at things with mains voltage - you can't accidentally switch it to 1x mode and blow up your 'scope.
Fixed 10x probes are also a good idea if you have children.
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Absolute bargain at $50!
IIRC the DS1102E was the only oscilloscope on your shelf in the early videos.
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Absolute bargain at $50!
IIRC the DS1102E was the only oscilloscope on your shelf in the early videos.
I think that was DS1052E - the 50MHz version that was hackable to 100MHz. A very good basic scope at the time, had it for quite a while myself.
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Since I never owned or used a scope, not sure how often one uses the 1x setting compared to the 10x setting
I've never used 1x mode in several years of 'scope ownership.
It's almost a waste of time to buy switchable 1x/10x probes, a fixed 10x probe will do 99.9999% of everything.
Fixed 10x probes are much safer if you're going to be poking at things with mains voltage - you can't accidentally switch it to 1x mode and blow up your 'scope.
Fixed 10x probes are also a good idea if you have children.
Good tip, I guess unlike a digital multimeter there is no fuse protection in the scope itself.
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I've never once used a 1x probe either. If I need something 1x, I skip the probe and couple directly to the scope.
Do any of the reasonable low cost probes have the contact pin Tek scopes use to detect 10x? I could actually use a separate set of probes for my TDS340 that I use as a lightweight portable scope (relative to my TDS784) but I'm not even sure offhand if I can manually select 10x. It would be nice if these probes were 10x only, one less opportunity to screw up by bumping the switch.
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I've never once used a 1x probe either. If I need something 1x, I skip the probe and couple directly to the scope.
Do any of the reasonable low cost probes have the contact pin Tek scopes use to detect 10x? I could actually use a separate set of probes for my TDS340 that I use as a lightweight portable scope (relative to my TDS784) but I'm not even sure offhand if I can manually select 10x. It would be nice if these probes were 10x only, one less opportunity to screw up by bumping the switch.
Siglent has one that comes with their SDS230*X models (300 MHz), it's model SP2030A @ $ 59. I have no idea of this is competitive with other sources.
Specs:
10X attenuation, 12pf, 10Mohm, 300MHz, 600V
IIRC the pin to Gnd resistance was 11k, I posted about them somewhere, I'll come back with a link or a pic.
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For that price I can buy used genuine Tek probes, I was intrigued by the $13 probes that apparently live up to their claimed specs and look reasonably well built but for $60 I'd just buy genuine.
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For that price I can buy used genuine Tek probes, I was intrigued by the $13 probes that apparently live up to their claimed specs and look reasonably well built but for $60 I'd just buy genuine.
Cheap auto attenuating 10x probes are available just not at the pricing of P6100 probes, you should be able to find them on eBay, IIRC look for P4*** numbering.
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Cheap auto attenuating 10x probes are available just not at the pricing of P6100 probes, you should be able to find them on eBay, IIRC look for P4*** numbering.
While It would be nice if 10x only probes with the price/performance of the p6100 probes were available, I fail to see why it is much of an issue. A couple of drops of superglue applied to the right spot and voila' your p6100 probe is now an inexpensive high performance 10x only probe!
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Cheap auto attenuating 10x probes are available just not at the pricing of P6100 probes, you should be able to find them on eBay, IIRC look for P4*** numbering.
Hmm, P4100 seems to refer to fixed 100:1 probes; I could not find any 10:1 versions with a P4* designation.
And they apparently don't have the Tek-style identification pin which james_s had asked for.
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Cheap auto attenuating 10x probes are available just not at the pricing of P6100 probes, you should be able to find them on eBay, IIRC look for P4*** numbering.
While It would be nice if 10x only probes with the price/performance of the p6100 probes were available, I fail to see why it is much of an issue. A couple of drops of superglue applied to the right spot and voila' your p6100 probe is now an inexpensive high performance 10x only probe!
Exactly, I plan to use small, tight, wide rubber bands in the switch area, making it difficult to slide the switch to the 1x spot.
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I can live with the switch, the important issue is the probe coding pin on the BNC that informs the scope that a 10x probe is attached and causes it to scale the voltage reading accordingly. I did find some inexpensive probes that offer that, but what little information I could find on them suggests that their performance is nowhere near the claimed 500MHz. That said, the TDS340 is only a 100MHz scope so if they offer good performance beyond that it may still be a reasonable deal. On the other hand, I could spend just a little more for a couple of used genuine Tek probes and know that they're well made probes that in good condition will exceed the claimed specs.
One of these days maybe the low end Chinese sellers will learn the value of being honest about specs. I'd much rather buy a 100MHz probe that I can trust to be good up through 100MHz than a "500 MHz" probe for the same price that might work ok up to 150MHz. I don't like the feeling that someone is trying to cheat me.
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After a short hunt:
Fixed 10x 600 MHz with readout pin.
http://www.pintech.com.cn/en/showpro.asp?id=1204&idc=1204&str=Oscilloscope%20Probe (http://www.pintech.com.cn/en/showpro.asp?id=1204&idc=1204&str=Oscilloscope%20Probe)
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I'd be perfectly happy if my 4 channel 'scope came with three fixed 10x probes and one switchable 1x/10x probe in the box.
It would save them a few cents, too. I wonder why they don't do that. :popcorn:
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After a short hunt:
Fixed 10x 600 MHz with readout pin.
http://www.pintech.com.cn/en/showpro.asp?id=1204&idc=1204&str=Oscilloscope%20Probe (http://www.pintech.com.cn/en/showpro.asp?id=1204&idc=1204&str=Oscilloscope%20Probe)
Has anyone used them that can verify they are well made and perform as advertised? Price? I didn't see a link to actually buy them.
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After a short hunt:
Fixed 10x 600 MHz with readout pin.
http://www.pintech.com.cn/en/showpro.asp?id=1204&idc=1204&str=Oscilloscope%20Probe (http://www.pintech.com.cn/en/showpro.asp?id=1204&idc=1204&str=Oscilloscope%20Probe)
Has anyone used them that can verify they are well made and perform as advertised? Price? I didn't see a link to actually buy them.
This one has the readout pin too and is 100 MHz rated so should be cheaper again:
http://www.pintech.com.cn/en/showpro.asp?id=1197&idc=1197&str=Oscilloscope%20Probe (http://www.pintech.com.cn/en/showpro.asp?id=1197&idc=1197&str=Oscilloscope%20Probe)
Go looking for the model # on Aliexpress.
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I'm not going to spend money on something that somebody here has not tested and evaluated. I've been burned too many times by cheap junk that didn't live up to claims.
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This is a great bargain. The DS1102E is an excellent entry level scope (I had one), especially for that price!
Despite the mild thread hijacking about discussing probes, I can attest the P6100 probes suggested by mtdoc are more than enough for this oscilloscope - no need to go fancy and I wouldn't recommend buying used probes at this stage, as they may be defective without your knowledge.
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After watching a 2015 video review by our own Joeqsmith of the Hantek PP150 (100mHz probes), I went with the Hantek PP200 probes (200mhz probes). Amazon Prime delivered for $28. All the listed Hantek 100mHz probes were NOT Prime eligible, so since I hope to get the used Rigol this week, and the seller told me the two Rigols he bought only came with a total of 2 probes, and he is keeping them, I needed two probes quickly. While they may be branded, and perhaps no better then the Chinese generic P6100's, since Joe was impressed with their specs and performance, I figured these will suffice, and allow me to get up and running, and do some testing with the scope.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005O0V01E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005O0V01E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
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Good buy.
I looked at your link and the list of related products had a "RioRand 100MHz probes" (https://www.amazon.com/RioRand-Oscilloscope-Clip-Probes-Accessory/dp/B0030KWM30/ref=pd_sim_328_6?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0030KWM30&pd_rd_r=4N7VKJTH5WP6Z26PMVPA&pd_rd_w=k8eLx&pd_rd_wg=g3eFZ&psc=1&refRID=4N7VKJTH5WP6Z26PMVPA). The description says the model number is PP150, but the third photo shows "P6100" written at the BNC connectors - go figure what they actually are... :P
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Good buy.
I looked at your link and the list of related products had a "RioRand 100MHz probes" (https://www.amazon.com/RioRand-Oscilloscope-Clip-Probes-Accessory/dp/B0030KWM30/ref=pd_sim_328_6?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0030KWM30&pd_rd_r=4N7VKJTH5WP6Z26PMVPA&pd_rd_w=k8eLx&pd_rd_wg=g3eFZ&psc=1&refRID=4N7VKJTH5WP6Z26PMVPA). The description says the model number is PP150, but the third photo shows "P6100" written at the BNC connectors - go figure what they actually are... :P
Thanks for taking your time to LOOK! Yeah, I had those bookmarked as well as some other P6100 probes. In the end they may all be from the same Chinese factory, with similar performance, so I went on the hopes these Hantek 200mhz probes will work as well as the 100mHz Hantek probes reviewed by Joe in 2015. THANKS JOE!
https://youtu.be/buG-H_LZH0U (https://youtu.be/buG-H_LZH0U)
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Got the scope yesterday, and the "Hantek" probes today. The only thing that says "hantek" is the tiny label on the bag they came in. The sticker on the probes themselves says "200mhz". I don't know how to test that spec and don't have any other gear here. I was able to do the compensation on both of them following the Rigol instructions, and get nice square wave forms.
As far as the $50 Rigol, it looks in great condition, like new. I ran the self test/calibration function and all seems well, and I reset everything to the factory defaults. Also downloaded and went from firmware 3.x to the last one listed on the Rigol site as 4.x in 2015. That went fine as well.
All I have to do now is learn how to use it!
Right now all I can test is a 1.5 volt battery, and a wall wart.
Any recommendations for common household electronics I could possibly test run on the scope?
THANKS for all the help and great advice!
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Nice score on the scope. Just about any electronic devices should have some potentially interesting signal sources in them, look for oscillator crystals and those little 4 pin canned oscillators. Grab a 555 or 74LS14 and build an oscillator, lots of options there. Be sure to watch Dave's video on how to not blow up your scope. Some items that plug into the wall lack isolation and the circuit "ground" is actually floating way above earth ground.