Author Topic: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?  (Read 18451 times)

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Offline Leon23

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2017, 02:17:42 pm »
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Can the DS4000 100 MHz version be hacked to 500 MHz? I've heard conflicting reports on this, and Rigol only officially sells bandwidth upgrades on the 200 MHz and up versions. However, the 100 MHz version does come with four very expensive 500 MHz probes.

Yes from personal experience it can be done and is reliable. AFAIK it is still possible.
The scope itself has an inbuilt 500ps risetime calibration signal which can be used to test it.

Historically it was thought to not be possible a couple of years ago. Later a custom firmware was developed to do it (MrKrabs), and later it was discovered be doable simply with keys. My theory is that Rigol released a firmware that permitted bandwidth upgrades, hence the change.

The 4GS/s is useful as the analog bandwidth is quite wide - signals well above 1GHz can be seen with reduced amplitude.

Be aware that the MSO seems to have some timebase limitations around its decoding which I don't see on the DS4014. There was a conversation here a while back on this with some tests done on the MSO. I did the same test on my DS and found it didn't have the same issue. My casual observation is that MSO owners are quite critical of their scopes, whereas DS owners are generally satisfied.
So perhaps you would be better off with the DS and a standalone logic analyser.

Bump! Could you provide with exactly which model did you succeed with the hack?
Personally im looking for this on either DS4014 or DS4024 --> DS4052

//Leon
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2017, 02:43:52 pm »
There's always that tiny risk that you'll be the first one buying a scope in which they've somehow prevented the hack but as far as I know it's still possible. Like hendorog I was initially running MrKrabs special firmware and then switched to the official version from Rigol and unlocked it to 500MHz bandwidth using the available keygen.

My scope is a DS4014 (2012 vintage), there are those who believe there are (or MIGHT be or CAN be) hardware differences between a DS4014 and a "real" DS4054 but no one has, to my knowledge, been able to say for sure and given that bandwidth upgrades thru software is now a common thing it's highly unlikely IMHO.

It would be a waste of Money buying a 4024 if your goal is to turn it into a 4054 (if you don't happen to get a BETTER price on the 4024 obviously).

 
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Offline Leon23

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2017, 03:04:52 pm »
Thank you for quick response and clarification.

Yes if it's possible to do 4014-->4054 obviously it seems to be the better deal ;). If it's possible it seems to be a huge cost save and a good option to get high-end scope features without paying ~$10k USD.

I've seen much enthusiasm from Dave regarding the 1054Z scope and some comments about the hack. It would be interesting if he had anything to say on this, possibly even get hands on these models and perform a teardown :popcorn:.

It would also be nice to get some more clarification if there is any hardware differences between DS4014 and DS4054 :-).
//Leon
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2017, 03:23:52 pm »
Both reviews and teardowns are available on Youtube, just not by Dave and there's plenty of information on this forum. Just keep in mind that issues discussed years ago may no longer be a concern (like for example the various decoder issues).

What would be interesting (and it might just missed it) is what can be done with the new DS4000E series, it's even less money, question is if it's STILL the same hardware, limited even further thru software.
 

Online alank2

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2017, 05:53:27 pm »
I received an ad for July 4th sale at tequipment that is 30% off Rigol right now (JULY30).  I did try it to see if it would work in my cart, but it didn't for me.  It says something about member pricing tiers excluded, but they have online chat today so anyone interested in pricy Rigol would be wise to chat with them and try to work it out.  That is the biggest savings I've ever seen on Rigol.
 

Offline Leon23

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2017, 08:37:44 am »
From what I could see on testequipment.net, it seems like this only applies to the MSO2202A which seem to be 30% off.
 

Online alank2

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2017, 12:08:24 pm »
[sarcasm]I suppose it makes sense[/sarcasm]

"30% OFF ALL RIGOL*"
"Excludes ds1054z, open box, demo, b-stock"
.
.
.
*Applies to Select Products Only.

Lame....
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2017, 08:40:03 am »
From today there is a new promo which extends the BW of the MSO/DS4000 100MHz to 200MHz plus all decoding for free ( I2C, SPI, RS232, UART, FlexRay, LIN and CAN).
There is a note from RIGOL which says that for those units the future BW upgrade to 350 and 500MHz is NOT possible.
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Offline hendorog

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2017, 08:57:27 am »
There is a note from RIGOL which says that for those units the future BW upgrade to 350 and 500MHz is NOT possible.

IIRC there has never been an official BW upgrade from 100MHz to 500MHz.




 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2017, 09:28:36 am »
I just wanted to be clear and precise, thanks
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Offline hendorog

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2017, 10:02:18 am »
I just wanted to be clear and precise, thanks

Sure, however to be perfectly clear - what you said could be misunderstood by people to mean that they cannot hack their scopes to 500MHz.
AFAIK there is no such limitation and somehow people think there is despite no proof - so I didn't want your comment to start another round of it.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2017, 10:18:48 am »
The 100MHz DS4000 is certainly intended to be upgraded to 500MHz. Why else would it be delivered with the expensive 500MHz probes?   ::)
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2017, 10:24:09 am »
The 100MHz DS4000 is certainly intended to be upgraded to 500MHz. Why else would it be delivered with the expensive 500MHz probes?   ::)


Unfortunately they started shipping the 500 MHz probes after I got mine :(  I only got 350MHz ones...

Still can't complain, I got a lot for my $$
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2017, 10:31:42 am »
Yeah, not possible in this case probably translates to not available meaning that you won't be able to PURCHASE another round of bandwidth. The free way of getting the full 500MHz will most likely work exactly as before.

The official upgrades, according to Batronix website are:
BW2T3-MSO/DS4000 Bandwidth Upgrade from 200 MHz to 350 MHz for models MSO/DS402x (2/4 channel)
BW2T5-MSO/DS4000 Bandwidth Upgrade from 200 MHz to 500 MHz for models MSO/DS402x (2/4 channel)
BW3T5-MSO/DS4000 Bandwidth Upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz for models MSO/DS403x (2/4 channel)

So, all they're saying is that you'll pay for 100MHz but you'll get a 500MHz unit limited to 200MHz without the option to purchase any furhter upgrades even if you wanted to...

(I got mine in May 2012 and I've got the 500MHz probes)
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2017, 10:38:12 am »
I just wanted to be clear and precise, thanks

Sure, however to be perfectly clear - what you said could be misunderstood by people to mean that they cannot hack their scopes to 500MHz.
AFAIK there is no such limitation and somehow people think there is despite no proof - so I didn't want your comment to start another round of it.

Got it thanks !
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2017, 10:55:24 am »
Small update here, unlike current upgrades, when ordering a MSO/DS4012 or 4014 the customer will receive a real MSO/DS4022 or 4024.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2017, 09:05:43 pm »
Small update here, unlike current upgrades, when ordering a MSO/DS4012 or 4014 the customer will receive a real MSO/DS4022 or 4024.
Is this a sales promotion like Siglent run on the SDS2000X models....pay the 200 MHz price and receive the 300 MHz model ?
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2017, 06:52:12 am »
There is only one model, the DS4000, what you're paying for is the front panel sticker.

Those not feeling comfortable with liberating the power available in the unit or those who might still believe there's a difference between a DS4000 with a 500MHz sticker on it (I suppose that's what defines it as "real") and a DS4000 with a 500MHz option code punched in might consider this a good deal. Going by the list price it's a massive ammount of money you're saving.
 

Offline DaJMasta

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2017, 06:59:07 am »
Yes, there is a 500MHz bandwidth software unlock option in addition to just the machine claiming to be a DS4054 (not an unlock key, some other inbuilt software toggle).

That said... I'm not 100% sure it makes any difference except for the time scale zoom level.  I haven't actually looked for the -3dB point on the scope (maybe I should), but hooked directly into a 50 ohm line from an RF generator, the unit lost trigger stability at around 1050MHz - on my DS4024.  Now the signal was significantly attenuated at that point and visually looked to have some kind of secondary amplitude modulation which was not enabled - but the front end could keep up.  There is certainly not a hard dropoff in response above the stated bandwidth.  There's also no difference in the measurement functions above the stated bandwidth.

I think the base 500MHz probes have a pretty good bandwidth as well.
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2017, 08:16:42 am »
Previously there was a patched firmware which changed the bandwidth AND the reported model number (which must be how Rigol turns a DS4000 into a "real" model.

Then the option codes was found and reverse engineered and the special firmware no longer needed. Now, if you unlock a 100MHz DS4000 to a 500MHz it still says DS401x but has the 500MHz bandwidth option enabled - even though Rigol choose not to SELL you that particular option.

Using Leo Bodnars pulser I've found the bandwidth of my DS4000 to be 725MHz (0.45/risetime), another user reports the same numbers.
 

Offline bozidarms

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2017, 08:56:31 am »
Quote
There is only one model, the DS4000, what you're paying for is the front panel sticker.
Better one cannot say!
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2017, 09:28:35 am »
There is only one model, the DS4000, what you're paying for is the front panel sticker.
I the DS4014E also the same?
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2017, 10:35:27 am »
AFAIK it's still not determined what (if any) hardware differences there are between the E-model and the standard one.

However, with the normal DS4000 all "models" have the same samplerate (4GSa/s) and the same amount of memory (140M) so there's been no "option codes" for unlocking anything to that effect. The E-model has 2GSa/s and 14M memory so even it IS the same hardware the option codes to possibly unlock it is AFAIK not known at this time and would require new efforts from the people knowing how to do that magic.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2017, 10:47:18 am »
Strange that no one has yet opened an E and compared.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Rigol DS4000 100 MHz hackable to 500 MHz?
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2017, 11:10:18 am »
The reason is probably that noone active on this forum, privately owns a DS4000E model. Actually, at 20% price difference to the DS4014 it doesn't make any sense to buy the "E" model, considering the certain option to "improve" the DS4014 to the full DS4054 capabilities. I guess when spending this amount of money privately, there are few people who want to be guinea pigs. Moreover, in comparison to other oscilloscope manufacturer's offers, the Rigol DS4000 series doesn't appear as attractive anymore as it may have three or four years ago.

Cheers,
Thomas
 


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