Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?

[AutomationGuy]

Yes I know I was wrong with my assumption.
The european head quater of LeCroy is in Geneva Switzerland close to the CERN. But it always was an American company.
But anyway all of my customers use LeCroy in the high end domain. They do scopes up to 100GHz.
Many companies I worked for have all kinds of scopes (LeCroy,Tek,Yokogawa,Hameg) but I haven't seen Agilent yet in a german company.

Edit: I have seen on many LeCroy Windows

[hendorog]

I have a DS4014 and am very happy with it. I'm sure that the Agilent and LeCroy scopes are better, but they cost more.
The FFT is a weakness,  so considering you are a hobbyist like me, I would be a bit creative and spend the money like this:

* DS4104 $2300
* SA44B spectrum analyser $919 <- No doubt there are better options for audio than this, I'm an RF guy

That satisfies your main requirements and you can come in $500 under budget and have $200 to take the wife out to dinner.

[MarkL]

I would also recommend the 3000T.  I didn't see anyone mention support yet, but my experience with Agilent/Keysight customer support has been top notch.  This is just as important as the device itself, at least in my opinion.

On the other end of the scale, my experience with Rigol customer support has been awful.  I won't go near anything Rigol for this reason alone.

I've evaluated the Tek MDO4000 and found that the UI was extremely slow and clunky, particularly when it was doing a lot serial protocol decoding.  If that's your intended use, I would count that out too.

No opinion on the LeCroy; never used one.


Someone mentioned the Keysight X2000A series.  Read the datasheet and compare carefully.  It has some non-obvious limitations, like not being able to decode serial protocols attached to the digital channels.

[Wuerstchenhund]

If I was getting a mid range scope I have no idea what I would get. Would try to avoid a Windows scope though, which could be challenging.

Yes, it will be. Keysight's DSOX2k/3k/4k run WindowsCE, the WaveSurfer 3000 runs Windows7 Embedded. IIRC the Tek MDO3k runs on Linux, as does the Rigol.

Not that it makes a difference as the user only sees the scope's UI anyways.

I have nightmares from supporting windows environments in the late 90s, and ever since then I am allergic to anything Microsoft.

Sure, because nothing has really changed since Windows95, right? 

Most mid-range and all high-end scopes run Windows instead of other OS platforms for a reason. This aside, most corporate networks are Windows based, and use Windows backends (Windows Server, Exchange) for their important stuff. Windows is also no longer an extension for MSDOS, this line died over 15 years ago. Modern Windows is based on WindowsNT which is al lot more stable and reliable than DOS-based Windows variants like Windows95. Go figure.

As far as scopes go, I'm mostly working with high end scopes, which means Windows scopes, since HP/Agilent came out with the original Infiniium running Windows 95 (which was shit, admittedly). I've never seen a problem with a scope running some variant of WindowsNT (W2k, XP, Vista, W7 etc) which was caused by Windows and not by a hardware or driver problem.

For low end scopes like a Rigol DS4000, Keysight DSOX3000T or LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 the OS is probably by far the least important parameter when choosing between them.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I would also recommend the 3000T.  I didn't see anyone mention support yet, but my experience with Agilent/Keysight customer support has been top notch.  This is just as important as the device itself, at least in my opinion.

On the other end of the scale, my experience with Rigol customer support has been awful.  I won't go near anything Rigol for this reason alone.

I've evaluated the Tek MDO4000 and found that the UI was extremely slow and clunky, particularly when it was doing a lot serial protocol decoding.  If that's your intended use, I would count that out too.

No opinion on the LeCroy; never used one.

LeCroy's support is top, in my experience at least as good as Agilent's/Keysight's support. LeCroy scopes are supported for 7 years after the specific model is no longer made, which is longer than what Agilent/Keysight supports many of their devices for. After that they offer repair on a "best effort" basis (which means as long as parts are available they can fix it). LeCroy still repairs 9300 Series scopes, and these scopes stopped production around 1998.

In addition, scopes that are inside the 7yr support windows can also be fitted with new manufacturer warranty. That means you can buy a second hand LeCroy scope i.e. on ebay and then send it to LeCroy, and as long as the factory seal is still in place and the scope passes calibration you can then buy manufacturer warranty (1/2/3yrs, or longer for some models) for it.

I also found that spare parts are often noticeably cheaper with LeCroy than with Agilent.

[Muxr]

If I was getting a mid range scope I have no idea what I would get. Would try to avoid a Windows scope though, which could be challenging.

Yes, it will be. Keysight's DSOX2k/3k/4k run WindowsCE, the WaveSurfer 3000 runs Windows7 Embedded. IIRC the Tek MDO3k runs on Linux, as does the Rigol.

Not that it makes a difference as the user only sees the scope's UI anyways.

I have nightmares from supporting windows environments in the late 90s, and ever since then I am allergic to anything Microsoft.

Sure, because nothing has really changed since Windows95, right? 

Most mid-range and all high-end scopes run Windows instead of other OS platforms for a reason. This aside, most corporate networks are Windows based, and use Windows backends (Windows Server, Exchange) for their important stuff. Windows is also no longer an extension for MSDOS, this line died over 15 years ago. Modern Windows is based on WindowsNT which is al lot more stable and reliable than DOS-based Windows variants like Windows95. Go figure.

As far as scopes go, I'm mostly working with high end scopes, which means Windows scopes, since HP/Agilent came out with the original Infiniium running Windows 95 (which was shit, admittedly). I've never seen a problem with a scope running some variant of WindowsNT (W2k, XP, Vista, W7 etc) which was caused by Windows and not by a hardware or driver problem.

For low end scopes like a Rigol DS4000, Keysight DSOX3000T or LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 the OS is probably by far the least important parameter when choosing between them.

I supported Windows NT/2000, half of our servers were FreeBSD and the other half was Windows, being woken up in the middle of the night was always a Windows issue. Anyways those years of lost sleep are the reason for my subjective bias. Under the hood they still use the windows registry and its still a proprietary OS. Anyways don't want to derail the thread, it's a subjective preference. I am sure they are fine for their intended purpose, I just avoid it like a plague, because of the scars.

[nctnico]

In my experience Windows on a piece of test equipment doesn't have to be a bad thing. It often allows to interface to other software easely and security is not really a problem as long as you don't use the internet browser on the scope or install dubious software.

[Wuerstchenhund]

WoW, thanks for all the replies/suggestions!

My main requirements for the scope are:

• 4 channel
• 200 Mhz (or 100 expandable to 200 Mhz)
• SPI & I2C at a minimum upgradable to I2S (I dabble in music / guitar / instrument effects)

If you want I2S then it probably has to be the Keysight as neither the Rigol DS4000 nor the LeCroy WaveSurfer support I2S.

But I'd consider if not just getting some cheap USB device as I2S decoder isn't a better alternative anyways.

• FFT or spectrum analyzer ability at lower frequencies (typically audio, but occasionally higher -- say 100Mhz at most)

FFT is really bad on the Rigol as it only supports a few thousand points (IIRC 4kpts). The DSOX3kT uses up to 64kpts for FFT which isn't great but still a lot better than the meagre 4kpts of the DS4000.

The LeCroy WaveSurfer uses 1Mpts.

• Various trigger / math functions that all scopes come with now so I won't list them

Well, the Rigol is pretty primitive in this regard (few triggers and primitive math). Both Keysight DSOX3kT and LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 offer much more in these areas. The WaveSurfer also comes with WaveScan which is a very flexible tool to find glitches or any other signal anomaly. It's probably best described as some kind of very flexible trigger, although it works with realtime data as well as data in the sample memory.

Here is what I'm reading from above:

Rigol
- Don't bother at this price range

Keysight
- Can't go wrong with the 3000T, solid contender
- Current free software upgrades include the AWG, freq counter, all decoding, etc.
- Can buy 100Mhz and upgrade to 200Mhz
- Very nice hardware FFT (not software)

As to FFT see above. It's much better than what the Rigol offers but that's because FFT on the Rigol is so poor for a scope of this day and age and not because it's that great on the Keysight. 64kpts is still pretty low for FFT, but I guess that (similar to the low sample memory of only 4M) is a limitation of the old scope platform and its slower processing architecture (the DSOX3kT is a slighlty improved DSOX3k which came out around 2012).

Teledyne/LeCroy
- I haven't researched these because I heard they are rebranding a cheap Chinese scope as their own.  No idea which models are good.

Yes, they do. The LeCroy WaveAce Series are rebranded Siglent scopes, and they are crap (the hardware is fine but the Siglent firmware is shit), plain and simple. But these are bottom-of-the-barrel scopes, and I guess LeCroy slowly realized that it burnt their reputation.

The WaveSurfer 3000 is manufactured by Siglent for LeCroy but the software comes from LeCroy, and it's a really good scope at a decent price. There have been a few discussions here so use the search function and you'll find more information.

However, the WaveSurfer 3000 is more a competitor to the Keysight DSO-X4000 Series than the 3000 Series.

- People have suggested their 3000 series, but they don't show scope prices or option prices so it's hard to compare (maybe I missed it on the site?)
- Are they bandwidth software upgradable? Can I get a 100Mhz and upgrade it later to 200 or more?

Yes, they are.

However, I recommend to just forget about bandwidth upgrades. They are rarely worth their money, no matter what manufacturer. Buy the bandwidth you need in the foreseeable future now, and later when you find that you need even more then sell the scope and get a new one which has the larger bandwidth. There's little point investing hundreds of dollars in the upgrade of a scope that by the time you want to upgrade is pretty much outdated when you can sell the old scope and use that money plus the money for the upgrade to buy a new model which will also perform better.

- Obviously I have homework investigating these

A good starting point are the spec sheets:

Keysight DSO-X 3000T:
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-0140EN.pdf?id=2545408

LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-datasheet.pdf
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-fact-sheet.pdf

BTW: the WaveSurfer recently got a DVM display mode (similar to the one on the Keysight) as a free upgrade for all WS3k scopes, and the optional signal generator in the scope is now a full Arbitrary Waveform Generator, again through a software update (which is free for owners of the FG option). Both things aren't mentioned in the data sheets.

Tektronix

- Well, after watching Dave's review of the MDO4000 ... more bad points than good points IMO.
- Let me know if anyone uses this scope please.  I could use another opinion

Back in the day Tektronix was the bees knees; if you were anyone you owned a Tektronix scope (or HP).  It's funny nobody mentioned them on this thread ... must indicate something...

Tektronix really was the technology leader in analog scopes, which also earned them their reputation which they are still benefitting from. But as far as DSOs are concerned, Tek was never a front runner. They had some decent scopes, and were the first offering scopes in the typical lunchbox format, however technology-wise they were mostly trailing behind others, notably LeCroy which is probably closest to being Tek's equivalent for DSOs.

The MDO3000/4000 might not be a bad scope if you need a single device which includes scope and spectrum analyzer, however the specs of the latter part is pretty poor, and for the price of a MSO3k with 3GHz SA you'll probably get two separate devices with overall better performance.

[HighVoltage]

Many companies I worked for have all kinds of scopes (LeCroy,Tek,Yokogawa,Hameg) but I haven't seen Agilent yet in a german company.

Interesting observation.
When I visit my German customers, I see:
1. HAMEG
2. Tektronix
3. Agilent

I think I have never seen a LeCroy scope in action in Germany.
Lately I see lots more Agilent/Keysight.

[hendorog]

Well, the Rigol is pretty primitive in this regard (few triggers and primitive math)

I looked at the advanced math and trigger specs in the Keysight 3000T document linked above and compared with my DS4014. They actually seem pretty comparable in both.

What am I missing?

[alank2]

* DS4014 $2300

You can get it for 6% less than this using a certain discount.  $2162.

[John Coloccia]

Well, the Rigol is pretty primitive in this regard (few triggers and primitive math)

I looked at the advanced math and trigger specs in the Keysight 3000T document linked above and compared with my DS4014. They actually seem pretty comparable in both.

What am I missing?

The Keysight with the touch display does zone triggering, I believe...which is incredibly cool.

[H.O]

You can get it for 6% less than this using a certain discount.  $2162.

And you can unlock all the decoders as well as the full 500MHz bandwidth using the available keygen - if your moral doesn't stop you of course (mine didn't...).

[I4E]

 Just to clarify someone else's point above. Some of the Rigol DS4000 series scopes do have upgradable bandwidth. 

Have a lovely day everyone!

[rsjsouza]

Almost anything that was said about the Rigol DS4000 seems valid, but I think it is an absolutely fine scope if the price is right. I just got my DS4014 (no options) from Rigol's clearance bin (North America only, though) for a lot less than the DS4012, and it is a very balanced four channel scope. The offer was even more sweet as it came with four brand spanking new 500MHz passive probes.

Does it have bugs? Yes, some annoying. Does it have a smaller FFT window? Yes - it is in fact 2048 points due to the crap Analog Devices DSP in it. Does it have deep memory? Yes, and despite there is no search, the memory navigation is a breeze with the jog dial. Does it allow for bandwidth upgrades? Yes, up to 500Mhz. Does it have a limited set of decoder options? Yes, although I figured I can probably workaround this by triggering the signal on a decent USB-based LA to be purchased later.

Well, the Rigol is pretty primitive in this regard (few triggers and primitive math)

I looked at the advanced math and trigger specs in the Keysight 3000T document linked above and compared with my DS4014. They actually seem pretty comparable in both.

Wuesterschund's comment about the limited math is that LeCroy's math is really advanced. However, the DS4000 is a good middle ground as equations can be created from scratch. 

Based on Wuesterschund's great reviews of the LeCroy oscilloscopes in this forum, I put this brand into the pool when I was fiercely searching for an oscilloscope. I was limited by budget (<$2k USD) and searched for options from several brands (LeCroy's LT364M or L/374 M or L/384M or L;Tek's TDS744/784D, TDS3054; Agilent's 54825, DSOX2002) but all of them had highs and lows. Heck, I even had my eye on a Wavesurfer 44MXs-A with an initial bid right on my budget, but it obviously went for a lot more.

In my experience Windows on a piece of test equipment doesn't have to be a bad thing. It often allows to interface to other software easely and security is not really a problem as long as you don't use the internet browser on the scope or install dubious software.

I agree, nctnico, although IMO it was a big turn off when I saw the aforementioned Wavesurfer with ESET NOD32 30-day trial installed... (I love this AV, but that only evidenced the risk is always lurking).

On the other end of the scale, my experience with Rigol customer support has been awful.  I won't go near anything Rigol for this reason alone.

Perhaps it was Rigol North America or your particular experience, but the service and support I got from them was really good.

[alank2]

Almost anything that was said about the Rigol DS4000 seems valid, but I think it is an absolutely fine scope if the price is right. I just got my DS4014 (no options) from Rigol's clearance bin (North America only, though) for a lot less than the DS4012, and it is a very balanced four channel scope. The offer was even more sweet as it came with four brand spanking new 500MHz passive probes.

Did you see my post here about this?     Glad it came with the four 500M Rigol probes for you.  It sure was a great price as I recall.

[Wuerstchenhund]

But you hardly get a wavesurfer for less than 3000€.

Yeah, in Germany (which for many things is a pretty expensive place), but the OP is not in Europe but in the US, and there the WS3k actually starts at $2,999 (approx 2700€).

With serial decoding (which doesn't include CAN!) and the MSO options the 200MHz version of the Wavesurfer 3000 costs over 5500 euro ex. VAT (I've got a quotation earlier this year).

Maybe, but didn't you get these quotes from some T&M resellers in your country and not directly from LeCroy?

The options make close to 40% of the price! I actually also need CAN decoding so add an extra 890 euro to the price for that and the options make up for almost 50% of the price. I dare the people who claim they can get them cheaper to make these scopes available for less money (or  ).

Even here in the UK LeCroy regularly does some deals where you get scopes like the WS3k with many/all options for little more than the basic price, or even for the list price of the naked scope. They also regularly sell ex-demo units which come with many/all options and which are priced pretty low, despite being less than 6 months old.

US prices are even lower, and because LeCroy wants to get more WS3000 scopes out there they are very flexible on price. Why do you think Keysight now offers all options for their "new" DSOX3000T for free? LeCroy puts quite a bit of pressure on them.

But hey, see it this way, there are other benefits of living in the Netherlands, even when low T&M prices might not be part of it 

[nctnico]

If Lecroy wants their scopes out there they should do a promotion and advertise with it otherwise their 'promotions' are just hearsay 
I hate having to haggle for a good price; I regard it disrespectful towards customers.

[rsjsouza]

Almost anything that was said about the Rigol DS4000 seems valid, but I think it is an absolutely fine scope if the price is right. I just got my DS4014 (no options) from Rigol's clearance bin (North America only, though) for a lot less than the DS4012, and it is a very balanced four channel scope. The offer was even more sweet as it came with four brand spanking new 500MHz passive probes.

Did you see my post here about this?     Glad it came with the four 500M Rigol probes for you.  It sure was a great price as I recall.

Sorry, I somehow missed it. Hopefully we are not the only ones that are actually happy with it, or I will start suspecting the issue is on us... 

In any case, hopefully Rigol will keep investing resources to continuously improve the DS4000 FW.

I hate having to haggle for a good price; I regard it disrespectful towards customers.

Haha... nctnico, if I did not haggle with the damn service operators here (phone, internet, cable TV, insurance, you name it) I would go bankrupt. Same rules are applicable for finished goods ranging from TVs to T&M gear to cars...

[jboard146]

I've get the DS4000 in a work is is "ok".

If i had to buy another scope it would be a Tek MDO3000 or Keysight MSO3000.

The serial decoding SUCKS, the FFT sucks, and the LAN/USB software SUCKS. If you think you might want to use any of these features look else where.

The hardware isn't the problem. It is all just crappy software or software issues.

[John Coloccia]

I need to get a blog so someone will send me a Lecroy scope to play around with.

[Wuerstchenhund]

If Lecroy wants their scopes out there they should do a promotion and advertise with it otherwise their 'promotions' are just hearsay 

When you got your quotes, did you even talk to LeCroy, or did you just ask your local resellers for quotes?

I hate having to haggle for a good price; I regard it disrespectful towards customers.

No offense but there's an old saying in this industry (T&M) which goes that only morons pay list price 

Haggling has been a pretty standard thing in dealings with the big names for decades, and is pretty much expected. If that's beneath you then that's fine, but then don't complain when you're paying over the odds.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I've get the DS4000 in a work is is "ok".

If i had to buy another scope it would be a Tek MDO3000 or Keysight MSO3000.

The serial decoding SUCKS, the FFT sucks, and the LAN/USB software SUCKS. If you think you might want to use any of these features look else where.

The hardware isn't the problem. It is all just crappy software or software issues.

Like with most Chinese kit. Rigol (as well as Siglent) has shown that they can produce decent hardware, however like most Chinese manufacturers they are pretty poor with software.

But then, after having seen an MDO3000 fail because of it's firmware, I'm not sure that this scope will be much better.

[hendorog]

Haggling has been a pretty standard thing in dealings with the big names for decades

It would be interesting to know some more about this from people with experience of it - which companies are more open to it, and can a hobbyist expect to get a discount?

Its annoying that the brand names don't publish their prices. I am sure it turns people away, as the old rule applies: if you have to ask the price you can't afford it. So if they are prepared to negotiate then there is an upside I guess.

Of course if you are a large company with much high end equipment already then they knock on your door not the other way around. Which makes it really easy.

[G0HZU]

Of course if you are a large company with much high end equipment already then they knock on your door not the other way around. Which makes it really easy.

I work for a large company with a fair bit of high end test gear and what usually happens (in the engineering labs) is that the big TE names will try and contact our engineers by various means and try and ply us with offers. Eg, they may phone us on an individual basis or arrange some kind of roadshow demo in a large meeting room where they basically show off dozens of items of test gear and try and ply engineers with various freebie/promotion treats. Sadly, we are no longer allowed to accept any such treats under recent rule revisions

However, price is rarely mentioned at this stage. They try and find out what we (may) need and then try and offer us extended loans/trials of anything we might be interested in. These free trials can easily last 6 months or more even on big ticket items.

But usually, a new project will require a certain amount of test gear and if it isn't available within the business already then we either hire it or (if we need it long term) the engineer goes 'cap in hand' to the project manager with a plea to buy said item(s) of test gear. The next stage is to make a valid business case for the equipment and if this gets approved by the beancounters then it gets purchased.

I'm not sure how much haggling gets done by our purchasing department or how successful it is. The engineer rarely offers alternatives to the desired pieces of kit and the buyer in the purchasing dept really won't know much about what they are buying apart from maybe having a list of addon options for each item of test gear.

However, in the production/test dept it is probably very different and we probably buy test gear in large batches and there would be a fair bit of price negotiation involved in this.