Author Topic: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China  (Read 191039 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline DomitronicTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Country: 00

On Batterfly i saw that Rigol has also launched oscilloscopes with 12 bit resolution. Right now only available in China:

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/en/blog-posts/rigol-hdo4000-hdo1000-launch-domestic-market


Rigol Homepage HDO1000:

https://mall.rigol.com/item.html?item_id=1427


Rigol Homepage HDO4000:

https://mall.rigol.com/item.html?item_id=1432


Chinese datasheet of HDO4000:

https://rigol.com/Images/HDO4000_DataSheet_PDF_zh%20_tcm4-4912.pdf


 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, Markus2801A

Offline hhappy1

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: kr
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2022, 08:39:39 am »
I am very excited.  8)
 

Online BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7547
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2022, 09:38:03 am »
Interesting, from this video, is that a detachable battery pack at the back of the scope ?


Offline tv84

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3194
  • Country: pt
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2022, 09:51:35 am »
I hope these step up the bar for everyone.

BUT those buttons layout... even my microwave oven looks sexier.
 
The following users thanked this post: Martin72

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4478
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2022, 09:52:12 am »
Good looking pricing, some pressure on the SDS2000 HD

Interesting, from this video, is that a detachable battery pack at the back of the scope ?
Google translate says its a battery.
 

Online Martin72

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5459
  • Country: de
  • Testfield Technician
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2022, 10:52:07 am »
Quote
Chinese datasheet of HDO4000

Why will the samplerate drops down to 1GSa/s when using all channels?
Would expect 2GSsa/s then.

Offline DomitronicTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2022, 11:43:17 am »

Why will the samplerate drops down to 1GSa/s when using all channels?


This would mean that 800MHz is not possible with all 4 channels active.

Lets wait for international prices and see if Rigol wants to place the HDO4000 as competitor to SDS2000x HD. HDO1000 should have lower price i guess.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 11:44:56 am by Domitronic »
 

Offline Wintel

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2022, 01:14:00 pm »

Why will the samplerate drops down to 1GSa/s when using all channels?


This would mean that 800MHz is not possible with all 4 channels active.

Lets wait for international prices and see if Rigol wants to place the HDO4000 as competitor to SDS2000x HD. HDO1000 should have lower price i guess.

Only 500MHz Bandwidth @ 1M Ω

Bandwidth (-3 dB) @ 50 Ω : 800MHz

Bandwidth (-3 dB) @ 1M Ω : 500MHz
 

Offline nomead

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 25
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2022, 03:54:38 pm »
I hope these step up the bar for everyone.

BUT those buttons layout... even my microwave oven looks sexier.

I dont mind the looks and layout but compared to DP800-series this is admittedly conservative.


So this was the shady survey about few weeks back. "Do you prefer western reputable brand with VESA-mount or cheap 12-bitter which can be riglolled?"

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-customer-research/
 

Offline Kleinstein

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13927
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2022, 06:48:39 am »

Why will the samplerate drops down to 1GSa/s when using all channels?


This would mean that 800MHz is not possible with all 4 channels active.

Lets wait for international prices and see if Rigol wants to place the HDO4000 as competitor to SDS2000x HD. HDO1000 should have lower price i guess.

Only 500MHz Bandwidth @ 1M Ω

Bandwidth (-3 dB) @ 50 Ω : 800MHz

Bandwidth (-3 dB) @ 1M Ω : 500MHz
A better BW with 50 ohms mode suggsets that they may have actually different input amplifiers and not just an 50 Ohms resistor to ground, which is good.
Probes for the 1 M input impedance are usually limited in the BW anyway, rarely more than 300 MHz and even whan the input is no longer really high impedance at 500 MHz.

With a single ADC for all 4 inputs, or all ADCs combined to get the full 4 GSPS it is normal that the maximum sampling rate will go down to 1/4.
For the highest BW one would need active probes and not many would buy 4 active probes. I would still be nice to have 2x2 GSPS even of the 3rd channel is used as a trigger.
12 bit resolution for the ADC naturally does not come with very high sampling rate.

It was a disign decision (possibly due to the available ADCs) that some of the 4 channel DSOs can't combine all power to one channel and thus only have 2 steps like 1 or 2 GSPS depending on the number of channels used. This was kind of 2 x 2 channels and the 4 channel version not directly included with the ADC. 2 ADCs does however add to the costs - may still come in the future.
 

Offline DomitronicTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2022, 08:08:58 am »

I took the chinese datasheet of the HDO1000 and put it through DeepL translator. Below are some screenshots.

A european supplier told me this morning that the new Rigol devices will also be available here soon. Though i'm not sure if all of them or only some models.

 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, Andreas

Offline DomitronicTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2022, 08:10:34 am »
More screenshots
 

Offline tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6611
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2022, 08:21:49 am »
It was a disign decision (possibly due to the available ADCs) that some of the 4 channel DSOs can't combine all power to one channel and thus only have 2 steps like 1 or 2 GSPS depending on the number of channels used. This was kind of 2 x 2 channels and the 4 channel version not directly included with the ADC. 2 ADCs does however add to the costs - may still come in the future.

Could also be memory or FPGA/ASIC  fabric bandwidth.  2GSa/s * (12 bits + 4 bits padding assumed) * 4 channels active = 16GB/s memory bandwidth.  Or 128Gbit/s. That is not insignificant.  If it is an x32 DDR(4/5) interface then it is running at ca. 2GHz.  Which is quite fast for an embedded application :)
 

Online Martin72

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5459
  • Country: de
  • Testfield Technician
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2022, 10:05:07 am »
I wonder if lecroy will be happy with the choosen model names, especially with the HDO4000.... ;)
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4478
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2022, 10:30:26 am »
Could also be memory or FPGA/ASIC  fabric bandwidth.  2GSa/s * (12 bits + 4 bits padding assumed) * 4 channels active = 16GB/s memory bandwidth.  Or 128Gbit/s. That is not insignificant.  If it is an x32 DDR(4/5) interface then it is running at ca. 2GHz.  Which is quite fast for an embedded application
Pretty stupid argument with that if condition, scopes use wide memory busses. The memory is the cheap bit. ADCs are the expensive bit that is usually limiting sample rate performance. There is a very remote possibility that the ADC -> FPGA/ASIC/SoC bus is the limit but not likely.
 

Offline DomitronicTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2022, 10:52:04 am »

Chinese HDO4000 datasheet translated by DeepL
 
The following users thanked this post: Martin72

Offline DomitronicTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2022, 10:52:54 am »
more Screenshots
 
The following users thanked this post: Martin72

Online MegaVolt

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 905
  • Country: by
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2022, 11:17:10 am »
The price of HDO4804 without taxes in China is ¥29999. It's over $4000.
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4478
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2022, 11:32:24 am »
The price of HDO4804 without taxes in China is ¥29999. It's over $4000.
Yes? That is 1/4 of the price of a Leroy HDO4054A or Tek MSO44

12bits with high speed is was expensive

 

Offline tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6611
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2022, 11:34:28 am »
Could also be memory or FPGA/ASIC  fabric bandwidth.  2GSa/s * (12 bits + 4 bits padding assumed) * 4 channels active = 16GB/s memory bandwidth.  Or 128Gbit/s. That is not insignificant.  If it is an x32 DDR(4/5) interface then it is running at ca. 2GHz.  Which is quite fast for an embedded application
Pretty stupid argument with that if condition, scopes use wide memory busses. The memory is the cheap bit. ADCs are the expensive bit that is usually limiting sample rate performance. There is a very remote possibility that the ADC -> FPGA/ASIC/SoC bus is the limit but not likely.

I don't think it's a stupid argument at all ;) or I would not have made it.   x64 interface could be used but that limits FPGA choices to ones with the package size to support 64-bit DDR.  Don't forget you need RAS/CAS timing and readout too, so even at x64 you might be looking at 1.25 - 1.5GHz clock for instance to have comfortable timing margin.  Which is pushing FPGA choices to high end, $1000 per chip territory (Kintex, Virtex etc., you can just about get x64 on Artix but you will not go above 1GHz.)

If the architecture supports MSO function on other products it also has to have sufficient memory to capture the MSO data likely on the same bus.

I am not sure if Rigol's ASICs support the 12-bit products yet, anyone know?
 

Offline DomitronicTopic starter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2022, 11:38:51 am »
The price of HDO4804 without taxes in China is ¥29999. It's over $4000.
Yes? That is 1/4 of the price of a Leroy HDO4054A or Tek MSO44

12bits with high speed is was expensive

For a company thats still not really expensivce i guess and the hobbyists usually hope that the base model can be "enhanced".

Interesting that both datasheets say that it is running on Android. Do other Rigol scopes also use Android?
 

Online Martin72

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5459
  • Country: de
  • Testfield Technician
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2022, 12:12:44 pm »
Afaik no, before it was linux.(5000, 7000..( 8000 idk))
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline tigerwang202

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
  • Country: cn
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2022, 05:39:48 pm »
As far as I know, since the DS70000 series oscilloscopes, they started switching to the Android platform. I'm guessing part of the reason is the availability of high-performance processors on the market that run the Android platform. Part of the reason may be that they are not supported by the X86 platform due to the trade entity list.
If you look at the description of the processor system in the HDO4000 datasheet "Cortex-A72, 1.8 GHz, Hexa Core", it seems they use ARM processor such as the Rockchip's RK3399. The processor receives the data collected by the FPGA through the PCIe bus, which may be a feasible way.
 
The following users thanked this post: tom66, thm_w

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4478
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2022, 11:20:11 pm »
Could also be memory or FPGA/ASIC  fabric bandwidth.  2GSa/s * (12 bits + 4 bits padding assumed) * 4 channels active = 16GB/s memory bandwidth.  Or 128Gbit/s. That is not insignificant.  If it is an x32 DDR(4/5) interface then it is running at ca. 2GHz.  Which is quite fast for an embedded application
Pretty stupid argument with that if condition, scopes use wide memory busses. The memory is the cheap bit. ADCs are the expensive bit that is usually limiting sample rate performance. There is a very remote possibility that the ADC -> FPGA/ASIC/SoC bus is the limit but not likely.

I don't think it's a stupid argument at all ;) or I would not have made it.   x64 interface could be used but that limits FPGA choices to ones with the package size to support 64-bit DDR.  Don't forget you need RAS/CAS timing and readout too, so even at x64 you might be looking at 1.25 - 1.5GHz clock for instance to have comfortable timing margin.  Which is pushing FPGA choices to high end, $1000 per chip territory (Kintex, Virtex etc., you can just about get x64 on Artix but you will not go above 1GHz.)

If the architecture supports MSO function on other products it also has to have sufficient memory to capture the MSO data likely on the same bus.

I am not sure if Rigol's ASICs support the 12-bit products yet, anyone know?
It sure is stupid, like saying but what if a car maker puts a poorly chosen gearbox in a vehicle, it will be redlining the engine past 12k rpm and still wont go fast! Well you know, they probably know what they are doing and wouldnt make bone-headed choices....

Pure imaginary "argument", strawman, nonsense. Wide buses dont need expensive FPGA's, just packages with more pins. Acquisition memory on a scope has predictable and steady access patterns, its not general purpose random access memory.

How about wait until its actually known whats inside the device? Commentary based on creative guesswork intentionally misleading hypotheticals isnt adding much.
 
The following users thanked this post: Martin72

Online Martin72

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5459
  • Country: de
  • Testfield Technician
Re: Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2022, 11:50:47 pm »
Quote
How about wait until its actually known whats inside the device?

Exactly, let´s wait a while...
As someone who bought actually siglents new 12 bit scope, I don´t get upset about this what I´ve seen in the specs, more the opposite.
 
The following users thanked this post: Markus2801A


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf