Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China

[MathWizard]

So the HDO1000 series only goes down to 500uV/div ? I expected from Dave's video they went to 100uV/div like the hdo4000. My sds1104 can do 500uV/div on some settings.

IDK, it's not like I new a better scope, but I don't want to be missing any uV's or ns 's, so I want a faster, higher resolution one, or 2.

[Martin72]

Besides the Rigol has lower waveforms/s and less memory, whats the difference ?

- 50 Ohms Input
- Input sense
- 2Mpt FFT (HDO4000 didn´t got also)
- AWG (HDO4000 didn´t got also)
- Bodeplot(HDO4000 didn´t got also)
- MSO (HDO4000 didn´t got also)
- Math formular editor (HDO4000 didn´t got also)
- Free chooseable channel colours (HDO4000 didn´t got also)
- Bandwith up to 500Mhz
- Minimum samplerate 1GSa/s (HDO1000: 500MSa/s)
- Really silent, pwm controlled fan
- "Pro" building quality in general

And so on, and so on.
HDO1000 is not really compareable to the HD from siglent.
Except 12bit and low noise, the rigol mso5000 would be "better", if you can live with 9" instead of 10" screen.
But:
Apart from this, the HDO1000 would be surely the cheapest true 12 bit scope ever released.

[maxwell3e10]

Apart from this, the HDO1000 would be surely the cheapest true 12 bit scope ever released.

Owon had 12-bit scopes for a long time, the cheapest now XDS2102A is under $400 for 2 channel. They are true 12 bit with 500MS/sec maximum sampling rate. When Dave gets data from HDO1000, we'll see how they compare.

[Martin72]

OK, I forgot Owon..
But for 400 bucks, is it really worth to compare..

[tv84]

The Rigol HDO that is head-to-head with the Siglent SDS2000X HD is the 4000 model. Interesting times. 

The HDO 1000 doesn't compare with the Siglent.

Time will tell which is the preference of the users (between the first 2) but Rigol starts with a more competitive price. I bet Siglent will end up lowering their new flagship price a little.

[tautech]

Ah ok so they HDO4000 is $3600 or whatever, but there is the HDO1000, starting at $700. I missed that in Dave's video, I thought 12-bit resolution was out of my price range but it's not.

I was going to get a SDS2104Xplus next spring and hack it to max BW. So I look forward to the reviews and any hacking of the HDO1000's.

If I want higher BW and 12-bit, I think getting both scopes would still be cheaper than the HDO4000 or Siglent 12bit scopes, and 2x the channels

Just first check which is a 500 MHz design. 

[Martin72]

I bet Siglent will end up lowering their new flagship price a little.

Grr....

[Fungus]

Just first check which is a 500 MHz design. 

Then check which one has 800Mhz option.

[EEVblog]

The HDO1024 is on the DHL truck somewhere in China

[EEVblog]

[Kleinstein]

Some of those of the shelf power bricks are really cheap - more like saving by using a series part, if they can get away with the performance (EMI).
With only a single 12 V voltage it is easy to get a standard part. Many other scopes get more voltages, like +-12 and +5 or 3.3 V from the supply and there it gets more tricky to find a suitable part.

The supply still looks like it is a simple one, without extra power factor correction.

I don't consider the common more choke a good one - more like a bit boarderline with creapage distances to the core.
Safty wise is looks like a well isolated one (Class 2 or similar) though it is used with ground connected to the seconday (the BNC inputs and case).

[mawyatt]

Single +12V supply may be something to do with the ability for battery power?

Best,

[David Hess]

For the ADCs it makes sense that they have 4 inputs, so they can use them with a cheaper 4 channel scope.
Why they are using 2 paths to the front ends is still odd. For a single signal this does not make much sense, except maybe as a dealy for interleaving 2 ADCs.

The 50ohm path provides 800Mhz bandwidth vs 500MHz for the 1M path.

It is very difficult to provide faster than 500 MHz bandwidth with a 1 megohm input.  Tektronix and I think Keysight has managed it, but it requires an exotic transistor for the input buffer, and is of questionable utility.

The figure of merit for a transistor in this application is frequency = Gm/(2 Pi C), so it requires low capacitance and high transconductance.

[EEVblog]

Single +12V supply may be something to do with the ability for battery power?

Yes, if youwere designing a scope for battery operation then you wouldn't want to dick around with multiple supplies form the PSU, you just want a single voltage to switch and match.
All other regulation gets shunted to the main board.
If you don't need battery supply then you can likely save some cost by shunting 5V and maybe 3.3V regulation off to the main PSU.

[oliv3r]

@tv84 I haven't read this whole thread yet (will do now!) but anything we can get excited about again? :p

[Fungus]

@tv84 I haven't read this whole thread yet (will do now!) but anything we can get excited about again? :p

Yes.

[Martin72]

Yes ?

[tv84]

@tv84 I haven't read this whole thread yet (will do now!) but anything we can get excited about again? :p

   When you get yours, we can play a little in the Android world.

Yes ?

 

[David Hess]

Single +12V supply may be something to do with the ability for battery power?

Yes, if youwere designing a scope for battery operation then you wouldn't want to dick around with multiple supplies form the PSU, you just want a single voltage to switch and match.
All other regulation gets shunted to the main board.
If you don't need battery supply then you can likely save some cost by shunting 5V and maybe 3.3V regulation off to the main PSU.

Single output voltage power supplies for computing devices are becoming more common even without support for operation from a battery, like the Intel ATX12VO standard.  In many cases tolerance requirements of the low voltage power supplies requires regulation at the point-of-load, so there is no reason not to use a single higher voltage main supply for better efficiency, and with all of the demand for point-of-load ASICs and parts, costs have come down making this an economical solution.

[svetlov]

Dave! you could check on the HDO1000 when you get it, FFT capabilities ?

[oliv3r]

Yes.

Yes ?

Ah, but you see, this is a different kind of excitement

@tv84 I haven't read this whole thread yet (will do now!) but anything we can get excited about again? :p

   When you get yours, we can play a little in the Android world.

I saw that its based on android, no more complex FPGA inside of the SoC and no more FPGA to do SPI routing. Didn't see the 'finger' port though, but I know these android SoC's tend to support USB boot mode. And since it is Android based, those two buttons @eevblog found on the PCB, are likely the reset and 'wake'/'ok' button, usually used for various things a phone needs those for, but also to trigger 'recovery mode' most likely

Starting post on hacking these things but nothing concrete yet obviously: p https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-hdo1khdo4k-rigol-12-bit-scope/msg4446907/#msg4446907 (dave didn't even give us a serial bootlog!! :p)

Dave never did a teardown of an MSO8000 or the DS70000 (those extra zero's are on the MAX, so not the DS7000) did he? I wonder if that DS70000 uses the same architecture, with an android/Rockchip in place. We know the MSO8000 is based on a 64bit zynq-mp. I bet that front-panel PCB is the same as the MSO8000/DS7000/DS70000 though; reuse where you can, and since they want to re-use their probes, this makes of course a lot of sense there.

From a spec pov, we also know that the MSO5000/MSO8000 certainly differ in hardware and capabilities, as did the DS7000. So hacking an MSO5000 to a DS7000 was never possible, e.g. MSO5000 had 350Mhz max bandwith, the DS7000 500Mhz, 8GSa/s vs 10GSa/s etc. Likewise we see that the HDO1000 is lower spec (2GSa/s max vs 2GSa/s) Memory is also different (less chips, less cost obviously). So unlocking will be a thing, but only to enable the 'top spec' in range, not to make an HDO1000 into a HDO4000.

With this in mind, as mentioned before, yes, 12bit ADC, low noise; but the MSO5000 (especially unlocked/max spec) still beats the HDO4000, IF you do not need 12 bit precision.

Btw, anybody notice this (rigolna, so vendor pricing probably is even lower) 799 for the 4 chan variant, 909 for the 2 chan variant? lol! (did we ever see the PCB of a 2 chan variant btw? is it identical with just some chips missing?

[David Hess]

For the ADCs it makes sense that they have 4 inputs, so they can use them with a cheaper 4 channel scope.
Why they are using 2 paths to the front ends is still odd. For a single signal this does not make much sense, except maybe as a dealy for interleaving 2 ADCs.

The 50ohm path provides 800Mhz bandwidth vs 500MHz for the 1M path.

You can study the faster Tektronix 7000 series oscilloscopes from the 1980s to get an idea of what is required to merge two 500+ MHz paths back into one.  Rigol is essentially doing this on the ADC itself which makes a lot of sense.  Tektronix usually but not always did it outside of the ICs on their 500 MHz and slower oscilloscopes, and used a very custom IC to combine two channels above 500 MHz.

I always find it fascinating that oscilloscopes of the past were implementing analog multiplexing, and addition and subtraction, to 100s of MHz with discrete parts, yet even now that is not a trivial problem.  It has actually become more difficult because so many fast high performance transistors are no longer available.

[EEVblog]

HDO1000 series 50ohm terminated. No internal 50ohm, but it says that on the front panel, LOL!

[EEVblog]

HDO1000 series 50ohm terminated 1M point, 1ms, 500uV/1mV/1V

[2N3055]

HDO1000 series 50ohm terminated. No internal 50ohm, but it says that on the front panel, LOL!

Dave, could you please confirm that is HDO1024? Nominal scope BW of 200MHz ?

Yeah, stupid me, it is in a screen shot.. Sorry and thanks anyways !