Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China

[David Hess]

You're going to base a purchasing decision on a single person's claim that "all older 8 bit DSOs" are better than these?

I am sorry if that was confusing.  My claim is that they are not better than every older 8 bit or analog oscilloscope, because some of those old oscilloscopes had lower noise, and better linearity.

I laugh when modern DSOs claim "low noise".  They are always making a comparison to DSOs that have high noise, with some of them being exceptionally high.  Many of those old oscilloscopes were achieving 18 to 28 microvolts RMS over a 100 to 200 MHz bandwidth, and were only limited by the noise from the RF JFET in their impedance converter.

I remember very noisy Tek & Agilent 8 bits DSOs, much worse than current Rigol MSO5K, so I do not get your point, especially because is not supported by measured data.

I do not know about the HP/Agilent DSOs, but the Tektronix CCD based DSOs sure were noisy, and their linearity was only like 6 bits.

This new Rigol 12bits line has nothing to do with previous ones under a lot of aspects, input noise and scope responsiveness are the first two things that you notice at first glance.

Like I said, it would not take much to improve upon Rigol's older DSOs.  That is not a very flattering comparison, although probably a fair one because that is what their potential customers are used to.

[bozidarms]

Our lecroy scopes haven´t got markers or even a table..
They expect you have eyes to see it and when you want to know the exact value, you can use cursors.
OK, for their prices you can´t expect more comfort, they cost with discount only 13000 or 14000 bucks each.

A little bit off topic, but anyway - from operator`s manual:

"Cursors on Math Functions
Cursors can be placed on math functions whose X-axis has a dimension other than time, such as an FFT.
When there is at least one math trace open, the Standard Cursors dialog contains an X-Axis control where
you can choose the units measured by the horizontal cursors. The options will be appropriate to the types
of function traces open; for example, if there is an FFT trace, there is an option for Hz. The cursor lines
are placed on the traces that normally display X-axis values in the selected units."

[Fungus]

well let me rephrase: if were true, (as a hypothetical). then what would it mean. because the sds2k has mixed signal, and perhaps less broken bugs in firmware etc.

If you need an MSO then this isn't the 'scope for you, obviously.

but i had forgotton that the thing boots twice as long. its 1 minute boot time for the sds2k+, and only 30s for these new rigol hdo. so that alone i think would bother me to still prefer the rigol (all else being taken out of the equation)

The user interface on these Rigols looks very, very interesting. Game changing, even. Disclaimer: I don't own one (yet), I'm judging by the videos and screenshots I've seen.

I do own a Micsig which has a way better UI then all other 'scopes I've used. Everything is really fast to set up and use.

I see many parallels to it in these new Rigols but the Rigols have way more features.

(as they should, they're twice the price...)

[2N3055]

Our lecroy scopes haven´t got markers or even a table..
They expect you have eyes to see it and when you want to know the exact value, you can use cursors.
OK, for their prices you can´t expect more comfort, they cost with discount only 13000 or 14000 bucks each.

A little bit off topic, but anyway - from operator`s manual:

"Cursors on Math Functions
Cursors can be placed on math functions whose X-axis has a dimension other than time, such as an FFT.
When there is at least one math trace open, the Standard Cursors dialog contains an X-Axis control where
you can choose the units measured by the horizontal cursors. The options will be appropriate to the types
of function traces open; for example, if there is an FFT trace, there is an option for Hz. The cursor lines
are placed on the traces that normally display X-axis values in the selected units."

What do try to say by this? This is standard function on every other scope to have cursors on FFT or math channels for that matter ..

[thm_w]

If you need an MSO then this isn't the 'scope for you, obviously.

Don't waste your time with this guy/gal, they've been debating what oscilloscope/PSU to get for multiple years.

[Martin72]

Do you really think that Rigol 12bits DSOs have inferior analog performance than Siglent SDS 2000x plus based on the fact that someone has expressed a personal opinion that is not supported by fact ?

I think we can agree that both are low noise, or in a range where in practice it no longer matters which is lower noise than the other.

but i had forgotton that the thing boots twice as long. its 1 minute boot time for the sds2k+, and only 30s for these new rigol hdo. so that alone i think would bother me to still prefer the rigol

Are you in such a hurry that you can't wait 30 seconds longer?
The boot time is, at least for me, so beside the point, other things would be incomparably more important.
I don't have to defuse a bomb that goes off in a few seconds...

[markone]

i have not taken any such position either way... it just seemed like a relevant question to ask. but such heated exchanges.

there is plenty of time to clear up those question. but it seems upon reviewing the last couple of pages there was some derailment between talking about difficulties measuring with the distortion from awg. which is a seperate matter itself

so the actual input distortion of these respective scopes. so no, i dont see how that has been sufficiently answered yet...

totally fine and no, i dont base my decisions based on just thin air. there has to be some real meat behind. its just a genuine case of:

well let me rephrase: if were true, (as a hypothetical). then what would it mean. because the sds2k has mixed signal, and perhaps less broken bugs in firmware etc.

but i had forgotton that the thing boots twice as long. its 1 minute boot time for the sds2k+, and only 30s for these new rigol hdo. so that alone i think would bother me to still prefer the rigol (all else being taken out of the equation)

There is a thing to be aware of before to purchase the sds2k+, take a look to the following video :  

Maybe this aspect does not bother you, in my case it was a deal breaker.

[Martin72]

Oh no, not again....

[markone]

Do you really think that Rigol 12bits DSOs have inferior analog performance than Siglent SDS 2000x plus based on the fact that someone has expressed a personal opinion that is not supported by fact ?

I think we can agree that both are low noise, or in a range where in practice it no longer matters which is lower noise than the other.

But the Rigol is an actual 12Bits DSO and waveform details are greater, in my opinion the SDS 2000x plus is an instrument to be to compared with others 8 bits MSO and here we all agree that noise wise is better than Rigol MSO5K scopes, which however cost less and have higher sampling rate.

We are talking about instruments with different purposes, if 12bits vertical resolution is the main feature sought then an hacked HD1074 have currently no rivals at the price. 

[markone]

Oh no, not again....

Yes, again, the truth MUST be told 

[dreamcat4]

Oh no, not again....

Yes, again, the truth MUST be told 

yes and the whole discussion about using history mode instead etc.

but i think i missed here the part of the conversation where somebody mentions what these new rigol hdo do in same situation. dave shows a variety of scopes and... that was before these new rigol platform got released.

however the r&s rtb probably would be my overall personal choice. were it not in a completely different price tier category and unobtainable. so if these new are better that's a positive

but yes, better not to stir up another contentious arguments. its almost worth not knowing the answer for the pages of grief otherwise incurred

[tautech]

Oh no, not again....

Yes, again, the truth MUST be told 

Be sure you place LeCroy and Pico in the same basket.

However what is more important is to point out your inability to adapt to use the perfectly functional tools you have at your disposal such as split screen Zoom mode.

[Fungus]

However what is more important is to point out your inability to adapt to use the perfectly functional toolsinconvenient workarounds you have at your disposal such as split screen Zoom mode.

FTFY.

Oh, well. The Siglent apologists are here so that's another thread down the toilet.

Why can't you just admit that Siglents aren't sent from heaven? That they might have flaws/weaknesses?

[tomud]

FTFY.

Oh, well. The Siglent apologists are here so that's another thread down the toilet.

Why can't you just admit that Siglents aren't sent from heaven? That they might have flaws/weaknesses?

I have a question when will you buy this Rigol HDO ?
Because for now you are talking about Rigol and Siglent without having these oscilloscopes. So you are a "very reliable source" of information about these oscilloscopes 

[2N3055]

However what is more important is to point out your inability to adapt to use the perfectly functional toolsinconvenient workarounds you have at your disposal such as split screen Zoom mode.

FTFY.

Oh, well. The Siglent apologists are here so that's another thread down the toilet.

Why can't you just admit that Siglents aren't sent from heaven? That they might have flaws/weaknesses?

Threads go down the toilet when people come in provoking that particular discussion and won't stop...

[Fungus]

Threads go down the toilet when people come in provoking that particular discussion and won't stop...

I've said all I'm going to say on this matter.

(PS: It wasn't me who brought it up, I didn't mention it, all I said was that Siglent fans really ought to accept that Siglent's aren't heaven-sent. Why don't you go and pick on the real culprits?)

[Fungus]

I have a question when will you buy this Rigol HDO ?
Because for now you are talking about Rigol and Siglent without having these oscilloscopes. So you are a "very reliable source" of information about these oscilloscopes 

That's never stopped a Siglent fan from going on about the noise in a Rigol MSO5000.

etc.

You don't have to own something to know anything about it or to be able to see the user interface in videos.

I may get one yet, we'll see how the next few months go. I don't actually need one though, right now my Misic covers my oscilloscope needs.

If I didn't own an oscilloscope and I had $1000+ to spend this Rigol would be top of the list for me. I wouldn't get anything without touch screen and the other Rigols and Siglents are only half way to a modern, MIcsig-like UI.

(I assume they didn't want to scare away their existing twisty-knob customer base).

[tomud]

I have a question when will you buy this Rigol HDO ?
Because for now you are talking about Rigol and Siglent without having these oscilloscopes. So you are a "very reliable source" of information about these oscilloscopes 

That's never stopped a Siglent fan from going on about the noise in a Rigol MSO5000.

etc.

You don't have to own something to know anything about it or to be able to see the user interface in videos.

You know, I'm reading this topic and I'd rather learn something from practitioners with equipment, not from people who base their knowledge on YouTube marketing videos...

If I have to base my knowledge on Youtube, it might be best to buy FNIRSI (The marketing is awesome) 

Recently, there is a fashion for specialists in all fields where instead of practice there is knowledge from Youtube. Some time ago, such a specialist explained to me how to raise a daughter, where his knowledge about raising children probably also comes from YouTube, and the knowledge about making children from PornHub (a bachelor without a family and children) 

[Fungus]

You know, I'm reading this topic and I'd rather learn something from practitioners with equipment, not from people who base their knowledge on YouTube marketing videos...

I must remember to tell Dave his videos are "Marketing videos"...

[Fungus]

his knowledge of how to make children from PornHub

I'm fairly sure the methods shown there will produce babies.

[tautech]

You know, I'm reading this topic and I'd rather learn something from practitioners with equipment, not from people who base their knowledge on YouTube marketing videos...

I must remember to tell Dave his videos are "Marketing videos"...

They are and documentation of his misunderstandings of how to use equipment too.
He is well known for fingers faster than brain usage.

[tomud]

You know, I'm reading this topic and I'd rather learn something from practitioners with equipment, not from people who base their knowledge on YouTube marketing videos...

I must remember to tell Dave his videos are "Marketing videos"...

I meant Rigol's videos showing the new oscilloscope. On the other hand, the videos shot by Dave from EEVBlog are invaluable (but it's mostly a hardware review, not a thorough test).

Unfortunately, to evaluate the oscilloscope well, you need to have it, in addition, it is not easy to do because many errors can come out only after some time.
Another thing is that people considering this oscilloscope are more interested in the opinions of users of the equipment. Sorry, but I don't think anyone cares how you rate this oscilloscope based on YT videos that everyone can see.

[rf-loop]

You know, I'm reading this topic and I'd rather learn something from practitioners with equipment, not from people who base their knowledge on YouTube marketing videos...

I must remember to tell Dave his videos are "Marketing videos"...

They are and documentation of his misunderstandings of how to use equipment too.
He is well known for fingers faster than brain usage.

Everyone knows why the media produces click headlines and articles. The only real purpose is to increase media popularity and therefore revenue.

[Fungus]

Unfortunately, to evaluate the oscilloscope well, you need to have it, in addition, it is not easy to do because many errors can come out only after some time. Another thing is that people considering this oscilloscope are more interested in the opinions of users of the equipment. Sorry, but I don't think anyone cares how you rate this oscilloscope based on YT videos that everyone can see.

What exactly did I say? The only thing I mentioned was the user interface.

You don't have to own one to be able to look at Dave's video (or even Rigol's "marketing video") and know the user interface is a massive improvement over traditional Rigol's Siglents:


vs.


PS: Have you checked the credentials of everybody posting here, or is it just because I'm the only one who adds disclaimers?

[tomud]

What exactly did I say? The only thing I mentioned was the user interface.

You don't have to own one to be able to look at Dave's video (or even Rigol's "marketing video") and know the user interface is a massive improvement over traditional Rigol's Siglents:

PS: Have you checked the credentials of everybody posting here, or is it just because I'm the only one who adds disclaimers?

I further argue that watching the video is a bit too little to even evaluate the graphical interface. Not to mention the fact that the appearance of the graphical interface as well as its aesthetics is a matter of taste and possible habits.
I don't know what conclusions can be drawn from these photos    You can also add GUI R&S, Tektronix, Keysight... and it won't change much 

Currently, I have experience with the older Rigol GUI, the touch interface on the Agilent/Keysight DSOX 3054A oscilloscope and the Siglent SAA Plus/SVA spectrum analyzer. I omit the Rigol waveform generator or the recently purchased SDM3065X multimeter from Siglent ...

In fact, without long work on measurements, it was difficult to determine what is more convenient in everyday work, what is weak in a given interface.

As for some of the weaknesses of the Siglent SDS2000X HD interface, I learned a bit from a topic hosted by Martin72. These are practical notes, not pasting screenshots without having the opportunity to work on this equipment.

Here are examples of constructive opinions from other topics - resulting from the fact that someone works on equipment and writes what annoys him:

"Today" I´ve used the bode function for checking some things on a differential probe.
What I don´t like is that when this mode is active, you can´t do anything else except what the bode menu allows you to do.
For example, when you want to change something in the channel menu, no chance, you have to leave the bode mode first.

Still I hope Siglent think again what is right place for "return" button in menu. My opinion is that it need be visible always so that if I open what ever menu  and if want return to previous menu no need scroll for find return button.

So forgive me... If someone is willing to spend over 3200euro on an oscilloscope HDO4000 or SDS2000X HD, they still prefer user feedback, not someone who "thinks" something is better (based on YT videos). It's a bit like the attitude of a child who says that when he's big and has money, he'll buy a Ferrari 

Personally, I do not want to judge either Rigol or Siglent, although reading the information about both oscilloscopes it looks a bit different.

Having some experience with Rigol, I'm a bit afraid that spending over 3000 euros I will sign up for aplha tests, and it's possible that beta tests will be in 10 years. For example, Rigol corrected some bugs related to math functions, triggers and SCPI commands in DS1000Z only in December 2020 (oscilloscopes of this series were released in 2013).

Siglent SDS2000X HD despite some problems, some shortcomings in the GUI. It seems that this is a slightly more mature design, which can be easily operated after purchase.

It is possible that I am wrong, but some doubts will certainly not be resolved by a person who knows about Rigol only from what someone else publishes on the forum or on Youtube.