Author Topic: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...  (Read 142167 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Hi, all! This is my first impression by quick testing Rigol MSO4024. Please, sorry me for my bad English.

I want to create this post as early REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol for separate discussion of MSO4000 and DS4000 series of oscilloscopes. Now I have created little report for Rigol's distributor in my country on Russian language "Rigol MSO4024 sw00.02.zip" (this is only report, not firmware!). Now this report is translating by distributor to Rigol company.

This is some bugs from upper document with very little description (sorry).


Known Firmware Bugs/Issues
(red indicates latest FW version available, italic indicates requires for testing - please, inform me about results)


1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec with ~50% filled USB-disk! With clean and formatted drive you take ~8...10sec
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

2. "Print" button can't save all screen, only signal and grid.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04]

4. Not informative progress-bar, when disk writing is active
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

7. Fonts with eng words has little character interval, bad smoothing. File manager's font with big character interval for Unicode's Cyrillic symbols
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

8. No nonvolatile through-counter for saved files (see comments in my RU report)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

9. Considerable inconvenience. Channels measurements is by FIFO-principle: when you adding new measurement, old left are deleting
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

14. Considerable inconvenience. Very primitive cursor measurements for XY-mode
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

16. Not stable V_RMS-measurements for >10 periods of unchangeable sin signal on different time-bases (~2..3%)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

17. On little overload channel V_RMS is not readable
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

18. On little overload channel signal form like slightly mirror image from up and down (as OPAMP reverse phase effect)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

20. Some big freezes with FFT math
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

21. Multi-function Knob change value, when you are press on it (this is bug on all Rigol oscilloscopes)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

29. Automatic menu hiding work in spurts
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

30. Moir of signal with big time-base in some cases
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

31. As for DS2000. ANTI-ALIASING does not prevent waveform aliasing to any degree, on some big time-bases signal is absent completely, freezes of scope.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

32. As for DS2000. There is a bug when using DOTS mode with AUTO memory depths @ >= 5us/div. It affects the waveform update rate (much reduced) - and can also affect the visible display of the waveform.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

33. Near as DS2000. Changing intensity of signal, when enabling second channel (see pictures from my RU report)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

34. Auto power on, when external power 220V cable disconnect/connect to oscilloscope
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04]

37. HiRes mode. On time-base @ >= 5ms/div signal is absent with CH1 only enabling, but freq-counter working properly (100-1000Hz sine). We can see signal, when CH2, or CH3+CH4 are been enabling.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

39. Offsets for channels on 1mV/div ~0.3...0.5mV (see pictures). Ext probes is absent, channels with internal 50 Ohm
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

22. Not mine. Freezes with logic analyzer (LA) at I2C mode: Scope comparison during I2C decoding Part 1 and Scope comparison during I2C decoding Part 2
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

23. Not mine. Phase shift of result sequence and phase jitter for LA at parallel mode RIGOL MSO4000 Parallel Trigger and Decode
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

24. Not mine. Not working LA decoder after power off/on for SPI-mode: Rigol oscilloscope spi decode bug
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]



Result of tests and measurements:

Frequency response tests
Pulse tests



Firmware links:

Global folder
Firmware upgrade procedure
Changelog

FW_00.02.01.00.03

500MHz patched FW_00.02.01.00.03:  w w w.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754



Edit 1. Formatting post, adding new firmware, correcting waveform rating (thanks to tized), added new screenshots
Edit 2. Autopower is with disable option. No bug #34. Adding Table with Bandwidth in High Res mode (memory=AUTO), light green - x2 better, than DS2000
Edit 3. Reorganized mediafire folder, added Changelog.txt link and firmware upgrade procedure. Edited bug #1. Bugs #9, #14 is considerable inconvenience now.
Edit 4. Reorganized mediafire folder, added Frequency response tests and Pulse tests links, corrected FR images


« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 04:21:08 pm by Altemir »
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 10:04:15 pm »
I have a MSO4024 as well.  So far I share most of your thoughts, although there is a new firmware available, 2.01 which seems to have helped the crashing on protocol decoding.  Mine hasn't crashed since the upgrade.

If I was still within my 30 day testing window of my distributor I'd probably send it back and order a Hameg HMO3000.  My recommendation to anyone here, unless you need the price/value of a hacked 500Mhz unit, look toward the Agilent 3000/Hameg HMO3000.  In saying that, if the hacks work on the new MSOs, a 500Mhz, 4-channel scope with all the options enabled is hard to beat for $4000.

Offline tized

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 35
  • Country: il
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 09:47:20 am »
Strange...I get nowhere near the same wfm/s rate in vector mode. Furthermore, just changing the amplitude will make it drop the rate by more than 10kwfms. In dots it behaves like the table and changing the amplitude has no effect. See screen captures below, counter is set to external trigger, which is connected to the trigger out.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:30:05 am by tized »
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 10:15:05 am »
tized
What is your firmware?
My tests has been made with 1Vp-p sine wave and 200mV/div setting. Frequency was measured with DG4162 counter.
Rigol recommendation: 4 div input amplitude.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:19:49 am by Altemir »
 

Offline tized

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 35
  • Country: il
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 10:38:11 am »
tized
What is your firmware?
My tests has been made with 1Vp-p sine wave and 200mV/div setting. Frequency was measured with DG4162 counter.
Rigol recommendation: 4 div input amplitude.

Software version:  00.02.00.00.04
Hardware version: 0.1.3.1

Just tried with 1Vp-p, 10MHz on 200mV/div -
Vectors:
2ns/div - 72,400
5ns/div - 73,450
10ns/div - 81,850
20ns/div - 43,280

Dots:
2ns/div - 106,670
5ns/div - 114,204
10ns/div - 115,906
20ns/div - 63,943

The trigger rate in dots is also more stable than in vector.

 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 11:32:09 am »
tized
Yes, you are right. My DG4162 (fw 01.00.07) was wrong for some frequencies. I remeasure with Agilent 53230A. Need some time...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:37:24 pm by Altemir »
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 10:45:16 pm »
A have edited my first post. DG4162 did not can measure some higher frequencies with 50 Ohm counter input. I got double frequencies with it bug. Now all results are correct.
With new firmware 00.02.01.00.03 we can save all screen or only signals and grid. We taken additional modes and tests in advanced Utility menu.
Who can comment: Gain1 , Gain2, EqualCal, DelayCal, ProbeCal, etc?

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2014, 05:32:28 pm »
Altemir: Thanks for your efforts!

I'm curious about the digital channels plus frame recording on the MSO4000. Can you record with digital channels on? Does the DSO capture the digital information in the frames?
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2014, 06:23:59 pm »
Oh, there should not be so many bugs. The DS4000 platform is not new and the scope is not cheap.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2014, 08:01:06 pm »
1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec!
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

Use my RUU utility software. Screen captures to PC take ~2.5s over USB or ~6s over LAN.

A new version is coming soon which will fully support all channels on the DS4000.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 12:34:17 am by marmad »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2014, 09:23:07 pm »
Have you seen these MSO4000 reviews?
https://www.youtube.com/user/WeBeEngineers
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 09:39:22 pm »
Have you seen these MSO4000 reviews?

The OP already posted MSO4000 videos by the same guy here in this thread. Look at his links in bug #22, 23, and 24.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 10:18:24 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 12:17:57 am »
Oh, there should not be so many bugs. The DS4000 platform is not new and the scope is not cheap.

That's exactly what I was thinking.  The 4000 is definitely "professionally" priced.  The quality should be of the same caliber.  They've certainly had more than enough time to address any bugs found in the unit.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2014, 02:06:15 am »
It depends on what you need. The DSOX3000 is probably more mature and responsive, but it has only 4Mpoints memory (Per channel? Per four channels? It is not clear from the datasheet.) But Rigol DS4000 has 140Mpoints memory per four two channels...
EDIT: Correction.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 05:08:10 pm by Hydrawerk »
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2014, 05:08:30 am »
It depends on what you need. The DSOX3000 is probably more mature and responsive, but it has only 4Mpoints memory (Per channel? Per four channels? It is not clear from the datasheet.) But Rigol DS4000 has 140Mpoints memory per four channels...

Stock on the DSOX3000 is 1M/channel, or 2M with the option.  In half-channel mode, it doubles those.  So the 4M max is for one channel of a two channel scope, or two channels of a four channel model.

The tradeoff for the shorter memory depths is a 1 million waveform/sec update rate.
 

Offline TomThomas

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 39
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2014, 01:56:15 pm »
It depends on what you need. The DSOX3000 is probably more mature and responsive, but it has only 4Mpoints memory (Per channel? Per four channels? It is not clear from the datasheet.) But Rigol DS4000 has 140Mpoints memory per four channels...

Hi Hydrawerk,
not completely right. Rigol has 140Mpts splitted over two channels. Means completely 280Mpts splitted over 4 Channels.
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2014, 04:07:52 pm »
I'm curious about the digital channels plus frame recording on the MSO4000. Can you record with digital channels on? Does the DSO capture the digital information in the frames?
Thank you fo your interest! Whether I understood you correctly?
1. Wfrm/s only for digital channels
2. Wfrm/s for analog+digital channels
3. Ability to waveform recording in segmented memory for digital channels

I can do it tomorrow or the day only.

Quote from: marmad
Use my RUU utility software. Screen captures to PC take ~2.5s over USB or ~6s over LAN.
Thank you for your software. I will use it at near time, but I do not always have the opportunity to connect PC with DSO in laboratory. DS1000D can save image to USB-flash for 1-2sec with less powerfull hardware!

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2014, 10:40:15 pm »
DS1000D can save image to USB-flash for 1-2sec with less powerfull hardware!

True.  However, there are 2 things you're overlooking:

1)  the screen on the 1000D is only 320x234.  Vs. 800x480 on the 4000.  That's a 5x difference right there.

2)  the 1000D can not save PNGs to USB memory sticks, at all.  Only BMPs.  So you're comparing apples vs. oranges (compressed vs. uncompressed image files).

Saving large uncompressed BMPs on your 4000 will be faster than PNGs, even though they're bigger.  That's because the processor in the 4000 (or the code) isn't very fast at compressing BMPs down to PNGs.  Probably not surprising.

[ADDED:  So the best approach is probably to save BMPs to the USB stick (fastest), then convert them to PNGs on your PC (smallest).]

« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 10:47:26 pm by Mark_O »
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2014, 05:40:17 am »
Mark_O
No, saving to *.bmp is not better, ~18sec under the same conditions.

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2014, 05:42:40 pm »
I'm curious about the digital channels plus frame recording on the MSO4000. Can you record with digital channels on? Does the DSO capture the digital information in the frames?
I measured waveform update rate for analog channels with and without LA-channels. No significant differences from first post's table. Yes, MSO can record analog+digital channels simultaneously to segmented memory.

I have sent bug report from first post to Chinas-s Rigol. They got it and promised to investigate this report.
New table at first post - frequency bandwidth for High Res mode. Memory=AUTO, light green - x2 better, than DS2000
Can anybody say me, what type of FPGA (full marking) used in MSO4000?

marmad
How do you add a full-scale pictures to body of first post "REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol"?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 07:55:49 pm by Altemir »
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2014, 06:20:08 pm »
I measured waveform update rate for analog channels with an without LA-channels. No significant differences from first post's table. Yes, MSO can record analog+digital channels simultaneously to segmented memory.
Great - that's a powerful feature! Thanks for checking that.

Quote
How do you add a full-scale pictures to body of first post "REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol"?
Just copy the link to the image inside an image tag in the post. For example:



If you "Quote" this post, you'll see the tags.
 

Offline Binary1955

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2014, 09:49:32 pm »
Hi I have a DS4054 and wanted it with the necessary firmware update here. I press on the HELP button and power button. I have it very often Try, but i don't come to update mode.. :)
Please can someone help me?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 09:57:12 pm by Binary1955 »
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2014, 10:07:31 pm »
Hi I have a DS4054 and wanted it with the necessary firmware update here. I press on the HELP button and power button. I have it very often Try, but i don't come to update mode.. :)
Please can someone help me?
Without flash-disk: You press Power, 0.2..0.5sec wait, press Help (3-5 times very often), but scope loading with "Rigol" screen? This is bad. I went to bootloader after the second attempt.

Offline Binary1955

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2014, 10:12:02 pm »
Thank you very much you helped me. The problem was probably that I had help permanently pressed. :-+
 

Offline cyr

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 252
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2014, 05:12:48 pm »
I only had my DS4014 for a couple of days before sending it back for repair (bad solder joint of faulty ADC on channel 1, random crap in the sample data which cleared up once the scope had fully warmed up). I did notice some of the same issues...

1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec!

Yes, incredibly slow. I did find though that BMP was much faster, and also the first image saved after putting the USB drive in the scope took longer than the rest.

Quote
9. Channels measurements is by FIFO-principle: when you adding new measurement, old left are deleting

Is this a bug? Unless I misunderstand you, this is how I would want it to work (as I add new measurements, the oldest ones are removed to make room).

Quote
18. On little overload channel signal form like slightly mirror image from up and down (as OPAMP reverse phase effect)

Yes, this is one of the most serious problems IMHO - and one that can't be fixed by a firmware update.

Quote
21. Multi-function Knob change value, when you are press on it (this is bug on all Rigol oscilloscopes)

And that's the most annoying problem...

Quote
39. Offsets for channels on 1mV/div ~0.3...0.5mV (see pictures). Ext probes is absent, channels with internal 50 Ohm

Mine was similar.

I can also add another bug / quirk in regards to waveform update rate. I noticed that it was significantly *higher* with 3-4 channels enabled than with two on many settings. On most timebase settings the numbers I got were lower then the numbers I've seen for the DS2000, which is ridiculous.

I'm getting my money back and will probably be putting it towards a discounted DSO-X 3034A while the current "free bandwidth upgrade" lasts - even though it's almost twice the cost and I actually prefer the Rigol in some ways (better button and screen layout, ethernet as standard, much greater sample memory...).

 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2014, 05:24:16 pm »

Saving large uncompressed BMPs on your 4000 will be faster than PNGs, even though they're bigger.  That's because the processor in the 4000 (or the code) isn't very fast at compressing BMPs down to PNGs.  Probably not surprising.

[ADDED:  So the best approach is probably to save BMPs to the USB stick (fastest), then convert them to PNGs on your PC (smallest).]

If you haven't seen it, there is an excellent screen capture utility here:

http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/

Works on Linux/Mac/Windblows, no other drivers or software required.  Also works for the DSA815, probably other Rigol as well.

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2014, 06:07:46 pm »
1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec!

Yes, incredibly slow. I did find though that BMP was much faster, and also the first image saved after putting the USB drive in the scope took longer than the rest.
I tested this bug today once again and what I has find: if USB-disk was formatted to FAT16 and it was without any files/dirs, MSO issue this results:
  • *.bmp   ~3.5sec
  • *.png    ~7...10sec
  • *.jpg     ~3...3.5sec
  • *.tiff      ~2...3sec
My USB-disk has ~30 files in main dir, ~10 dirs with ~20-30 files in each at the begining before formatting. MSO was very slow under such conditions, then it can't save any files on this drive. I have an acceptable results now, but *.png is a very bad choice for speed.

Quote
9. Channels measurements is by FIFO-principle: when you adding new measurement, old left are deleting
Is this a bug?
Yes, it is so. More datailed reasons I expressed at my RU bug-report. This is just awful for my laboratory's measurements and unlike the other my Tek and Lecroy scopes.

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2014, 06:15:21 pm »
Quote
9. Channels measurements is by FIFO-principle: when you adding new measurement, old left are deleting
Is this a bug?
Yes, it is so. More datailed reasons I expressed at my RU bug-report. This is just awful for my laboratory's measurements and unlike the other my Tek and Lecroy scopes.

No it isn't: it's an interface-design issue. You might not like it - but it's working as designed - and so it's *not* a bug.
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2014, 06:29:39 pm »
No it isn't: it's an interface-design issue. You might not like it - but it's working as designed - and so it's *not* a bug.
Everything is relative :) I will correct it in bug-list.

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2014, 06:32:48 pm »
Quote
21. Multi-function Knob change value, when you are press on it (this is bug on all Rigol oscilloscopes)
And that's the most annoying problem...

I think most of this problem is the slow/laggy response of the encoder/display.  The system is still registering that you moved the multifunction knob while you press it in, the system finally updates the screen to one more position (past the option you were attempting to chose, but because it is no laggy you thought it was finished moving/updating) and it is chosen instead.

Yes very annoying, especially for a $4k instrument.  If you slowly move the knob and wait for it to update it works fine, better not be in any hurry though...

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2014, 06:54:00 pm »
I think most of this problem is the slow/laggy response of the encoder/display.  The system is still registering that you moved the multifunction knob while you press it in, the system finally updates the screen to one more position (past the option you were attempting to chose, but because it is no laggy you thought it was finished moving/updating) and it is chosen instead.

Yes, but it's only a problem in Menu overlays; when there are screen overlays (such as the virtual keyboard), there is no lag and you can enter presses at breakneck speeds. The problem is the amount of processing time reassigned to deal with the Menu - you can again see it clearly when MenuDisplay is not infinite: the animation of the retraction of the Menu stutters terribly.

Rigol needs to change the amount of processing time devoted to the Menu (when there is a sub-menu extended) to the same thing it is when there is a screen overlay.
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2014, 06:58:10 pm »
Rigol needs to change the amount of processing time devoted to the Menu (when there is a sub-menu extended) to the same thing it is when there is a screen overlay.

This would be an easy change to make.  I'm guessing this is present in the DS4000s as well, which means they are not going to fix it if it's been there this long.

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2014, 10:56:54 pm »
Big tests and experiments has been done today. Thanks to MrKrabs for his patch! I placed links to my results in first posts.
Frequency response tests
Pulse tests

Some notes.
This is unbelievable! Real 500MHz! Beautiful flat frequency response, good Pulse response (you can make pulse test independently with MSO4024 calibration output: fast edge signal with 500ps rise time). Big thanks to Rigol's engineers! As you can see, for MSO4024 BW(-3dB) is ~350MHz, Rise time ~1.4ns, and for MSO4024_500 it is ~670MHz and ~780ps respectively. So, for this scopes F(-3dB) = ~0.49/t_rise. Is Rigol used in this input paths filter with maximally flat response (high order Butterworth filter)? Rigol writes in DS4k User's guide, that Calculated Rise Time for MSO405X/DS405X is 700 ps. I can see changing between 760...840ps. Is MSO405X/DS405X has different input path yet?

The following quote a little picture of the upper links:

Offline Binary1955

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2014, 11:37:05 pm »

If you haven't seen it, there is an excellent screen capture utility here:

http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/

Works on Linux/Mac/Windblows, no other drivers or software required.  Also works for the DSA815, probably other Rigol as well.

@ dr.diesel

Do you use this program rigol-screen copy-lan in the German version or do you have it in English?
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2014, 11:40:09 pm »
I have not used yet

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2014, 11:43:38 pm »
@ dr.diesel
Do you use this program rigol-screen copy-lan in the German version or do you have it in English?

It is English, or perhaps auto-detects.

Offline rsivan

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: it
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2014, 11:52:04 pm »
Hello to all,I'm investigating about fan noise of my ds4014 and discovered inside chips are very hot!, expecially 4 ic without heatsink which reach 80c, after some check I ordered from rs 9 heatsink 4x 17x17 and 5x 10x10 self adhesive, and result was good now if you see  second ir pic with only one heatsink fitted see difference... ,about fan I replaced with noctua make running at about 1000rpm, fitted reverse pushing air inside and 10-15° inclined to center, this decrease a lot the noise and cooling seem to be good, now temp is max 27 from system stat, before was 34-36 max at about 17c room
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 12:11:14 am by rsivan »
 

Offline AndersAnd

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 568
  • Country: dk
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2014, 07:15:06 am »
Is it the A/D-converters?
 

Offline rsivan

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: it
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2014, 07:17:48 am »
I think are adc converters
 

Offline AndersAnd

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 568
  • Country: dk
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2014, 07:20:48 am »
So all the black heatsinks were added by you and all the silver heatsinks were factory mounted?

 

Offline rsivan

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: it
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2014, 07:22:22 am »
yes all black what I mounted
 

Offline AndersAnd

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 568
  • Country: dk
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2014, 07:25:09 am »
I think are adc converters
Or maybe it's the 4 PGAs (programmable gain amplifiers)? Or are these mounted below the analog front-end shield?
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2014, 02:26:48 pm »
I think, that it is adc. Pga and equaliser is under shield.
Can anyone make a pulse test with patched DS/MSO401x? Screenshots will be nice, as I has done upper.

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2014, 02:45:02 pm »
I think, that it is adc. Pga and equaliser is under shield.

Definitely the ADCs. Possibly Ruifeng MXT2001s.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 09:00:23 pm by marmad »
 

Offline discopope

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 7
  • Country: aq
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2014, 04:00:35 pm »
Can anyone make a pulse test with patched DS/MSO401x? Screenshots will be nice, as I has done upper.

Here are some from a MSO4014 and a Tek DPO 4032 for comparison. Signal source was the calibration output from the MSO.

The last one, with 'FWPatch' in the file name is the one with the new firmware.
 

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2014, 04:46:33 pm »
@rsivan

Thanks for sharing your DS4000 heat sink modification.  I am interested in this, along with the fan change, in an effort to reduce the noise of my DS4000 series scope.  I wonder if the addition of the heat sinks might affect the electrical operation of the chips in any way.  Rigol may have left them off for reasons other than just cutting manufacturing costs.  An interaction like this might only be apparent at higher frequencies and would have to be tested, I suppose.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2014, 06:24:49 pm »
I wonder if it is normal for the DS4000 ICs to be so hot. Maybe yes. Even the ICs in Dave's TDS3000 were pretty hot.
http://youtu.be/qXGqDDE9-4M?t=12m24s
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline rsivan

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: it
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2014, 07:06:27 pm »
A chip working at 80c is not going to work lifetime at 40-50 will be better anyway I can bring a ground on heatsink to make good shield one important thing putting fan reverse pushing air inside cool chip a lot more because pulling air will make air drain from edge of case and zone close to last bga and temp sensor much hot,
 now temp max after 2-3h is 26-27
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 07:08:20 pm by rsivan »
 

Offline cubitus

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 22
  • Country: fr
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2014, 08:52:54 pm »
Hello,

I just bought the MSO4014. (10/01/2014)
I disassemble, and I'm guessing that he is not new!  :wtf:
There are traces of dust on the fan and the circuit.
Can be found on the PCB manufacturing date?
thank you
RIGOL DM3068, DG4062, DP832A MSO4014
FLIR E4
 

Offline Sparky

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 431
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2014, 09:12:46 pm »
Hello,

I just bought the MSO4014. (10/01/2014)
I disassemble, and I'm guessing that he is not new!  :wtf:
There are traces of dust on the fan and the circuit.
Can be found on the PCB manufacturing date?
thank you

The year and week of manufacture is incorporated in the serial number. 

For example, on a DS2000 series scope the serial is something like: DS2A1427xxxxx  In this case, the 14 indicates year 2012, and the 27 is the week of the year of manufacture.

For the years: 14 = 2012, 15 = 2013, 16 = 2014, etc.

So, you can determine the manufacture date using your serial number.
 

Offline cubitus

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 22
  • Country: fr
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2014, 09:24:06 pm »
Ok thank you

DS4C1544.....

28 oct 2013
RIGOL DM3068, DG4062, DP832A MSO4014
FLIR E4
 

Offline TomThomas

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 39
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2014, 11:00:07 am »
Hello,

I just bought the MSO4014. (10/01/2014)
I disassemble, and I'm guessing that he is not new!  :wtf:
There are traces of dust on the fan and the circuit.
Can be found on the PCB manufacturing date?
thank you

Hi
did you complain about this at Rigol/your dealer?
What did they respond?
rgds
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2014, 11:18:35 am »
did you complain about this at Rigol/your dealer?
What did they respond?

Probably, "Why did you void your warranty by opening it?"
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2014, 04:28:10 pm »
Anyone done calibration (over advanced menu) and self-calibration of the DS4k?

Offline cubitus

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 22
  • Country: fr
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2014, 07:36:36 pm »
Anyone done calibration (over advanced menu) and self-calibration of the DS4k?
28 nov 2013

At the moment I'm negotiating with my dealer for either compensation or an exchange.
For him the instrument is new and has not been used ...

I look and I see

Do you know the differences in the Harware Version 1.3 and 1.31?

RIGOL DM3068, DG4062, DP832A MSO4014
FLIR E4
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2014, 07:44:11 pm »
28 nov 2013
Do you know the differences in the Harware Version 1.3 and 1.31?
You personally did calibration, or factory? No, I don't know about differencies. You want to return the oscilloscope to the dealer? Why?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 08:04:50 pm by Altemir »
 

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2014, 08:00:35 pm »
@cubitus:
I am concerned that you are thinking of returning a perfectly functional scope for dust on the fan/board.  I doubt that the Rigol factory uses clean-rooms to burn in their scopes for several hours before shipping them.  Also, if the scope needed a touch-up in the factory, like, for instance a cold joint or loose part, the scope could have gone through the burn in process twice.  I personally wouldn't mind a bit of dust to know my scope was going to work correctly.   Just a thought....
 

Offline cubitus

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 22
  • Country: fr
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2014, 08:23:30 pm »

Some traces ...
For a new device? :o

RIGOL DM3068, DG4062, DP832A MSO4014
FLIR E4
 

Offline iDevice

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Country: be
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2014, 08:43:59 pm »
Anyone done calibration (over advanced menu) and self-calibration of the DS4k?
I do a self-calibration every six month or so which is enough for me as it takes about 40m.
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2014, 09:01:13 pm »
I do a self-calibration every six month or so which is enough for me as it takes about 40m.
This calibration procedure is from DS6000 calibration or not? Are You know what, specifically, calibration data will be erased when pressing the button ResumeCal? Can I do only "Equivalent Calibration" after this? Do you use when calibrating the DS6000-Cal-Kit? Are You bought the cable "BNC One-to-Five Cable" or did it yourself?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 09:04:30 pm by Altemir »
 

Offline AndersAnd

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 568
  • Country: dk
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2014, 01:06:03 am »
Do you know the differences in the Harware Version 1.3 and 1.31?
The difference is 0.01 ;)
 

Offline TomThomas

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 39
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2014, 08:03:08 am »

Do you know the differences in the Harware Version 1.3 and 1.31?
[/quote]

What is displayed in your System Information view? 1.3 or 1.3.1?
I'm not aware that there are two different MSO boards available.
 

Offline iDevice

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Country: be
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2014, 10:07:36 pm »
I do a self-calibration every six month or so which is enough for me as it takes about 40m.
This calibration procedure is from DS6000 calibration or not? Are You know what, specifically, calibration data will be erased when pressing the button ResumeCal? Can I do only "Equivalent Calibration" after this? Do you use when calibrating the DS6000-Cal-Kit? Are You bought the cable "BNC One-to-Five Cable" or did it yourself?
The extended calibration procedure of the DS4000 seems similar to what's listed in this DS6000 document, but because I don't have the equivalent instruction for the 4K, I never dared to do it.
The fact is, only the self-call is supposed to be accessible to the final user. We only access the extended menu because someone leaked the code sequence.
But so far, I never felt the need for anything else than the self-cal, because what is meant to be calibrated by the other procedures has always been spot-on on my scope.
All the offsets or metering errors I've had so far were always fixed by the self-cal.
I never tried to do a ResumeCal as self-cal never failed.

I bought the official Rigol's DS4K calibration kit from Batronix because it is so cheap that you cannot build it yourself for less, unless you recycle old connectors.
It is just 6 BNC-BNC cables and a BNC splitter on a PCB, totally equivalent and interchangeable with the one for the DS6K.
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2014, 10:19:20 pm »
...The fact is, only the self-call is supposed to be accessible to the final user. We only access the extended menu because someone leaked the code sequence.
Thanks for your description. Inputs to advanced menu are described in the DS6000 calibration procedure, but not in leaked code :) Did you Delay-calibration of the DS4000?

Quote
It is just 6 BNC-BNC cables and a BNC splitter on a PCB, totally equivalent and interchangeable with the one for the DS6K.
Can you put pictures of the Cal-Kit on the forum? Please.

Offline discopope

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 7
  • Country: aq
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2014, 04:49:22 am »
It is propbaly this one:
http://images.batronix.com/products/oscilloscopes/Rigol/Accessories/RigolScopeCalibrationSet-1200-789.jpg
looks like a pretty simple 1to5 BNC adaptor with controlled propagation, maybe controlled impedance, it seems to have a ground plane
on the other side.
It is advertised in the batronix shop as 'Calibration kit for the self calibration of the Rigol DS4000 and DS6000 oscilloscope series.'
 

Offline Altemir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: ru
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2014, 06:00:01 am »
It is propbaly this one...
This picture I've seen. I would like a more detailed picture of the entire set from real users, because the document is given a different picture of the cable.

Offline iDevice

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Country: be
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2014, 09:37:59 pm »
It is propbaly this one:
http://images.batronix.com/products/oscilloscopes/Rigol/Accessories/RigolScopeCalibrationSet-1200-789.jpg
looks like a pretty simple 1to5 BNC adaptor with controlled propagation, maybe controlled impedance, it seems to have a ground plane
on the other side.
It is advertised in the batronix shop as 'Calibration kit for the self calibration of the Rigol DS4000 and DS6000 oscilloscope series.'
Yes, this is the one, and I bought it from Batronix like all of my Rigol T/M gear.
 

Offline iDevice

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Country: be
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2014, 10:00:56 pm »
It is propbaly this one...
This picture I've seen. I would like a more detailed picture of the entire set from real users, because the document is given a different picture of the cable.
Well, I would consider myself as a real user, I guess...  :-DD
But I don't see what I could show better than the picture from the Batronix site.
The document you referenced is for the DS6000 which shows the cable kit they proposed at that time when the 6K series got out which is by now the oldest member of the InfiniVision series.
The 4k kit is more recent and looks a bit more professional, in my opinion, than the crappy harness shown in the DS6k doc.
But, anyway, you can setup something as crappy yourself as long as you respect the paths lengths, or with standard cable and just 4 2F1M BNC T's. Obviously, with the T's, the fifth output cable must be a bit longer to compensate the T cascades on one side of the first T.
 

Offline AndersAnd

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 568
  • Country: dk
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2014, 10:35:58 pm »
I bought the official Rigol's DS4K calibration kit from Batronix because it is so cheap that you cannot build it yourself for less, unless you recycle old connectors.
It is just 6 BNC-BNC cables and a BNC splitter on a PCB, totally equivalent and interchangeable with the one for the DS6K.
Yes I just checked the price: http://www.batronix.com/shop/accessory/test-equipment.html
EUR 29.- / USD 40.50 + VAT

For that price it's not worth making your own PCB + 6 BNC-BNC cables.
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2014, 02:29:13 am »
anyone had trouble with the trigger on the DS4000?  I have a DS4014 and I've noticed that with simple serial data the rising and falling edge trigger doesn't seem to work correctly.  I've also noticed that the rising edge trigger doesn't always work properly depending on subtle trigger level changes.
 

Offline jboard146

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 36
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2014, 06:02:22 am »
I've also seen that the trigger doesn't always work.

The other thing that is veru annoying is the decode doesn't refresh when "zooming in or out" changing the time divisions. I've mostly noticed this on the I2C decode, but don't use the other decoders too much.
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2014, 01:33:40 pm »
anyone had trouble with the trigger on the DS4000?  I have a DS4014 and I've noticed that with simple serial data the rising and falling edge trigger doesn't seem to work correctly.  I've also noticed that the rising edge trigger doesn't always work properly depending on subtle trigger level changes.

I was playing around with the serial line decoder. It didn't happen always but I got the scope to hang up twice. It was a funny thing since I've set it up to restore last settings after power on - so it hang up every time I powered it on again automatically. After all I've found how to reset it during the boot process.

The bus protocols seem not to be one of Rigol's strength. However it doesn't matter to me, I've got the Hameg HMO in parallel, which has got much better bus decoding options than Rigol.


Rgds
Gunb
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2014, 01:39:29 pm »
I was playing around with the serial line decoder. It didn't happen always but I got the scope to hang up twice. It was a funny thing since I've set it up to restore last settings after power on - so it hang up every time I powered it on again automatically. After all I've found how to reset it during the boot process.


Are you running the new firmware, 00.02.01?  I was having lockup problems as well until I upgraded.

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2014, 04:37:11 pm »
The bus protocols seem not to be one of Rigol's strength. However it doesn't matter to me, I've got the Hameg HMO in parallel, which has got much better bus decoding options than Rigol.
Rgds
Gunb
Although that Hameg has only 2500 waveforms per second and it looks like a small poor scope... But in fact it is a compact powerful machine from Germany.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Dan Ma

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2014, 01:01:42 pm »
Just got my MSO4000 2 days ago and I tried to save mixed signal Analog not problem Digital part from LA ? I am unable to find the menu. Checked the manual still no clue. Called up the sales support from my reseller, answer they need to ask Rigol.  Did I miss something obvious or is it Rigol.

Regards,
DM
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2014, 08:19:42 am »
The bus protocols seem not to be one of Rigol's strength. However it doesn't matter to me, I've got the Hameg HMO in parallel, which has got much better bus decoding options than Rigol.
Rgds
Gunb
Although that Hameg has only 2500 waveforms per second and it looks like a small poor scope... But in fact it is a compact powerful machine from Germany.

"Only" is only mentioned because Agilent (Keysight) makes big stories about wfm/s to sell their expensive scopes - where most of the users don't need really high wfm/s.

Most of users of scopes for general purpose don't need such high wfm/s including myself although I've got a few scopes in my office which make up to 1mio wfm/s.

Meanwhile Hameg has increased the wfm/s of the current HMO3000 series to 4800wfm/s and it has got a real trigger output not only a passthrough which enables to measure the wfm/s - if needed.

Got one on my desk with 500MHz bandwidth, so you're right, it is a real powerful as the previous HMOs, too and I prefer the size very much since it's the perfect partner on my desk where other devices have to be placed on the cupboard.

The Rigol is not bad, firmware issues are quite common to all todays manufacturers. Even Agilent has got firmware issues, found them already.

Rgds
Gunb
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2014, 08:22:46 am »

Are you running the new firmware, 00.02.01?  I was having lockup problems as well until I upgraded.

Hmm, will check that when I'm home again.


Rgds
Gunb
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2014, 08:54:54 pm »
Are you running the new firmware, 00.02.01?  I was having lockup problems as well until I upgraded.

Well, I've got firmware 00.02.00 on my DS4012.

... and I've just started updating the scope to 00.02.01  ....

Kind regards
Gunb
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 09:08:10 pm by Gunb »
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #78 on: February 03, 2014, 08:48:20 am »
Well, meanwhile I've flashed the scope with version 00.02.01 and the serial decoder problems seems to be solved, i.e., it does not freeze anymore.

But I've lost the 500MHz bandwidth "option" and I've fallen back to the origin 100 MHz (oops, I assumed that would happen)  :-/O

Hmm, I would like have both in common (without using a JTAG and open the scope anytime when a new update is released) :-DD
Any idea / experience if this can be done somehow? 


Kind regards
Gunb
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 09:13:27 pm by Gunb »
 

Offline tized

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 35
  • Country: il
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #79 on: February 03, 2014, 09:00:25 am »
Well, meanwhile I've flashed the scope with version 00.02.01 and the serial decoder problems seems to be solved, i.e., it does not freeze anymore.

But I've lost the 500MHz bandwidth "option" and I've fallen back to the origin 100 MHz (oops, I assumed that would happen)  :-/O

Hmm, I would like have both in common (without using a JTAG and open the scope anytime when a new update is released) :-DD
Any idea / experience if this can be done somehow? 


Kind regards
Gunb

From the main Rigol "modifications" thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754

 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2014, 09:06:31 am »

From the main Rigol "modifications" thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754

Thank you very much Sir!

I decorate you with the sticker "Hero of the day!"  :-+
(Although I've followed the linked thread more or less from the beginning meanwhile it's hard to follow  ;) )


Have a nice day
Gunb
 

Offline cubitus

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 22
  • Country: fr
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #81 on: February 04, 2014, 04:39:22 pm »
Hello,

Do you know any software to operate the MSO4000 series?
I found:
RigolBildschirmkopieLAN, it makes the screenshot
RUU it also makes the screenshot.

I have not found a program that works to read files. WFM

Is that you better?

Thank you

RIGOL DM3068, DG4062, DP832A MSO4014
FLIR E4
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #82 on: February 04, 2014, 04:42:39 pm »
I have not found a program that works to read files. WFM

RUU will do it for DS4000s soon... working on a new version.
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #83 on: February 04, 2014, 07:21:01 pm »
Hi,
Seeing that the "other" Rigol thread is mostly on the DS2000 and now the 1000 series I thought I'd post here instead.
Yesterday I applied MrKrabs edition of the 02.01.00.03 DS4000 firmware and it worked like a charm, all options stayed intact, thanks MrKrabs!

In another thread someone mentioned the decoders not operating on recorded frames, something that sounded a bit strange to me - say it isn't so I said to myself. Unfortunately that does seem to be the case (I only tested the RS232 decoder). I thought perhaps the frames had to be recorded with the decoder active but that doesn't work either - as soon as you press the record button the decoder stops updating. "Browsing" thru the recorded frames doesn't do anything with the decoded data on the screen, it just stays the way it was at the moment you pressed Record. Using the wavefor analysis function in order to "preview" the frames at the bottom of the screen the preview to the left of the current of frame somtimes distors badly and this appears to only happen when the decoder is on the screen.

Since the decoders appears to be software driven I really don't see the reason for them not being able to operate on recorded frames.

Don't know if it can be called a bug as I don't think I've seen it stated anywhere that it should work, still kind of a shame though.
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #84 on: February 04, 2014, 09:25:10 pm »

In another thread someone mentioned the decoders not operating on recorded frames, something that sounded a bit strange to me - say it isn't so I said to myself. Unfortunately that does seem to be the case (I only tested the RS232 decoder). I thought perhaps the frames had to be recorded with the decoder active but that doesn't work either - as soon as you press the record button the decoder stops updating. "Browsing" thru the recorded frames doesn't do anything with the decoded data on the screen, it just stays the way it was at the moment you pressed Record. Using the wavefor analysis function in order to "preview" the frames at the bottom of the screen the preview to the left of the current of frame somtimes distors badly and this appears to only happen when the decoder is on the screen.


After reading your message I've done a few trials again and agree that the decoders seem not to work with recorded frames as they should. I've noticed the same behaviour as you did. Also got the scope frozen after decoding RS232 data streams with a timebase of 20ms and pressing the ZOOM knob to divide the screen into 2 windows. That does not happen always but it can be reproduced. The reason why I rejected my comment above.


Since the decoders appears to be software driven I really don't see the reason for them not being able to operate on recorded frames.

Don't know if it can be called a bug as I don't think I've seen it stated anywhere that it should work, still kind of a shame though.

Either they should block the decoding completely when switching to recorded frames or they should improve functionality. The current state can be marked as a bug.

The reason why I prefer the Hameg HMO series. It decodes by hardware and has got more options, especially real search functionality and trigger patterns that can be defined by the user.
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #85 on: February 04, 2014, 09:44:00 pm »
Quote
Either they should block the decoding completely when switching to recorded frames or they should improve functionality. The current state can be marked as a bug.
I agree, it's misleading having the decoder on screen showing "old" data.

I'd really would've liked them to work on recorded frames, and I'm surprised they don't but can't say if they actually should work. But again, if they aren't meant to work then they should be disabled.

Who's going to ask Rigol about it?   8)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 09:46:37 pm by H.O »
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #86 on: February 04, 2014, 10:08:24 pm »
Who's going to ask Rigol about it?   8)

We all should.

Offline madbblanca

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2014, 11:16:17 pm »
Hello everyone.

   Thank  to  Cybernet and MrKrabs.

My DS4024 model to full!
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #88 on: February 06, 2014, 12:24:16 am »
I'd really would've liked them to work on recorded frames, and I'm surprised they don't but can't say if they actually should work. But again, if they aren't meant to work then they should be disabled.

Who's going to ask Rigol about it?   8)

I already did.  But I got an auto-responder, saying they're away for 'Spring Festival' until Feb10 or 11.  I expect to hear back in about a week.
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #89 on: February 06, 2014, 06:41:57 am »
So did I, autoreply claimed I should expect a reply shortly (no note of any spring festival).
Anyone else?
 

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #90 on: February 06, 2014, 02:42:29 pm »
While we wait for Rigol to return from vacation, I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed their scopes real time clock drifts?  Mine runs a bit slow, to the point I need to be sure and check it and reset it if I want accurate date/time stamps on my files.  I would say it loses a minute (or more) every couple of days or so.  It's not the end of the world, but might like to figure out a fix eventually.
 

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2014, 08:19:59 pm »
I'm popping this thread to the top because I see that there was a firmware update for the DS2000 series scopes.  I've noticed that updates for the DS2000 and DS4000 series scopes tend to come out very close in time to each other.  I have sent an email to Rigol asking if there is a new DS/MSO4000 FW version in the pipe, along with the above question about the real time clock drifting.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #92 on: March 21, 2014, 02:40:13 pm »
As somebody mentioned before, MSO4000's waveform update rate goes down when serial decode is enabled. It is clearly visible with naked eyes. Not good on a $4,400 scope! http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/

EDIT: The memory was at the lowest setting, 14kpoints per channel.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 02:58:54 pm by Hydrawerk »
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #93 on: March 21, 2014, 02:52:43 pm »
As somebody mentioned before, MSO4000's waveform update rate goes down when serial decode is enabled. It is clearly visible with naked eyes. Not good on a $4,400 scope! http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/


This is only a valid complaint in comparison to other scopes.  Do the Agilents or Teks suffer this as well?  Or do they maintain waveform update.

Are you sure it is a waveform update loss?  Or is it just a screen update loss.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2014, 03:02:05 pm »
I think that Agilent does not suffer this, but some Tektronix scopes do.
http://youtu.be/7hM6xXoWtEc?t=1m59s
http://youtu.be/OgO6s_AtX1I?t=1m56s
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #95 on: March 21, 2014, 03:40:07 pm »
I think that Agilent does not suffer this, but some Tektronix scopes do.
http://youtu.be/7hM6xXoWtEc?t=1m59s
http://youtu.be/OgO6s_AtX1I?t=1m56s

I'm not surprised.  I like the Agilent scopes much much better these days than the TEK.  I have an MSO7104B and it is spectacular.  I still like my Rigol ds4014 a lot... except it is 2 months old and already broke!
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2014, 03:56:03 pm »
Oh, what happened to your Rigol DS4000? It has some disadvantages, but I still think that it is rather a powerful scope...
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2014, 05:27:33 pm »
Oh, what happened to your Rigol DS4000? It has some disadvantages, but I still think that it is rather a powerful scope...

few things:

had 1 bad pixel, luckily it was dark so it wasn't really noticeable.
Then it started having visual glitches
Then channels 3 and 4 started having rail to rail noise with nothing connected to the inputs
Finally of a few more days it got to a point when no scope traces would show on the screen regardless of how the scope was set.

Rigol has had it for over a week and I've not received any update.  Kinda sucks to be down a scope!!!  I've got a lot of other Rigol equip and not had issues for the most part.
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #98 on: March 21, 2014, 09:07:40 pm »
As somebody mentioned before, MSO4000's waveform update rate goes down when serial decode is enabled. It is clearly visible with naked eyes. Not good on a $4,400 scope!

EDIT: The memory was at the lowest setting, 14kpoints per channel.

Thanks for the demo.  Also, I'm glad to see that you confined it to the 14k points/channel setting.  More than that doesn't help, and you may be the first I've seen who has done this right.

And yes, it does slow down significantly (i.e., the screen update rate), but I don't think that impaired the usability.  In fact, if it was running at the pre-decode speed, the changes may have been too fast to even read.  Did you feel the slower display updates made it less usable?

This was actually still much faster and more regular than previous similar demos (which had multi-meg sampling enabled, and looked really horrible).
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 09:09:12 pm by Mark_O »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #99 on: March 21, 2014, 09:17:26 pm »

Rigol has had it for over a week and I've not received any update.  Kinda sucks to be down a scope!!!  I've got a lot of other Rigol equip and not had issues for the most part.
Well, this may happen to any scope, even Agilent can be faulty sometimes... And you have said that you have other Rigol equipment, that is working properly.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Sailor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2014, 10:22:58 am »

I'm not surprised.  I like the Agilent scopes much much better these days than the TEK.  I have an MSO7104B and it is spectacular.  I still like my Rigol ds4014 a lot... except it is 2 months old and already broke!

Have you had the MSO7104B for a long time? If so, was there any one (or more) things that prompted you to buy the DS4014, or was it simply to try out something new? I am still tossing up between an Agilent MSO7054B and the Rigol MSO7034, and I keep wondering if all that extra sample memory will make up for the other shortcomings of the Rigol. I'd really appreciate your opinion.

Thanks,
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #101 on: March 27, 2014, 04:13:26 pm »
I've had the Agilent MSO7104B for a few months but I had a 7104A with many options on it for several years (at my last startup). 

I got the DS4014 based on price.  It's a real steal.  If cost wasn't an issue I would always go agilent.  At the same price point I might still go Rigol over Tek believe it or not.

As I mentioned Rigol hardware is solid, firmware is okay but a little buggy, PC software is pretty bad compared to what Agilent or Tek has.

Extra sample memory is only useful in certain cases.  I find it most useful for digital, but honestly for digital I usually use the Saleae logic 16 which is dirt cheap compared to a scope so the deep memory doesn't get that much use on the MSO7104A/B or on the ds4014.  If the scope is your primary logic analyzer I'd consider having the extra memory but maybe not enough to go Rigol over Agilent.  Again Rigol is a price play more than anything in my opinion.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2014, 05:30:32 pm »
As somebody mentioned before, MSO4000's waveform update rate goes down when serial decode is enabled. It is clearly visible with naked eyes. Not good on a $4,400 scope! http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/

EDIT: The memory was at the lowest setting, 14kpoints per channel.
Another comparison...
EDIT:This time nobody knows what the memory setting was at Rigol scope.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 12:02:54 am by Hydrawerk »
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2014, 05:35:55 pm »

I'm not surprised.  I like the Agilent scopes much much better these days than the TEK.  I have an MSO7104B and it is spectacular.  I still like my Rigol ds4014 a lot... except it is 2 months old and already broke!

Have you had the MSO7104B for a long time? If so, was there any one (or more) things that prompted you to buy the DS4014, or was it simply to try out something new? I am still tossing up between an Agilent MSO7054B and the Rigol MSO7034, and I keep wondering if all that extra sample memory will make up for the other shortcomings of the Rigol. I'd really appreciate your opinion.

Thanks,
The Rigol has only a segmented memory (called record) and no other tools for long memory management. No Search or automatic scroll. No marks possible. Nothing like Waveform Inspector on Tektronix scopes AFAIK.
On the other hand, the segmented memory is quite impressive.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2014, 08:13:09 pm »
Hydra, while your demonstration was valid, because you selected an appropriate sample depth, those others you linked to were completely bogus.  As I already pointed out, a couple months ago, in some detail.

As somebody mentioned before, MSO4000's waveform update rate goes down when serial decode is enabled. It is clearly visible with naked eyes. Not good on a $4,400 scope! http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/

EDIT: The memory was at the lowest setting, 14kpoints per channel.
Another comparison...



EDIT:  and even after all this time, I still haven't seen anyone comment on how horrible the analog wave trace of the I2C stream looks on the Tek.  It's just a flickery, blurry mess.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 08:20:34 pm by Mark_O »
 

Offline Sailor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #105 on: March 27, 2014, 11:25:24 pm »

@Gallymimus
Thanks for your comments. I've been using a Tek MSO4034 with the 10MSa option at the office for the last five years or more, and now I want something for home. The designs that I work on are truly mixed-signal and the 10MSa option has been extremely valuable, hence my trepidation at dropping back to the 8MSa of the Agilent. Of course, work-arounds are always possible, but inevitably slow your progress. The slow response of the Rigol GUI irks me, and there are still bugs in what is essentially a DS4000 product that has been on the market for a couple of years.

@Hydrawerk
Exactly. Quite coincidentally, just yesterday I spoke to John South (Emona Product Manager for Rigol) about the lack of Mark/Search capability, and he is going to ask if there is anything in the pipeline. I sent him a screen shot from my Tek to illustrate a cursor problem, and he is finding out if that is just a FW update (my demo machine has version 00.02.00.00.04) or if it's something that will need further work. So the distributor support seems responsive, let's see if it translates into action.

 

Offline Sailor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2014, 12:34:25 pm »
Does everyone else have problems with RS232 decoding on a DS4000/MSO4000 at the higher baud rates (e.g. 57600, 115200, ...)? Whether or not it works correctly seems to depend on several things such as memory size, T/B time/div, and the delay between characters. If no one else has these problems I'll describe the details of what I see, otherwise I'll put it down as just another bug.

Firmware version is 00.02.01.00.03.
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #107 on: April 02, 2014, 12:51:41 pm »
Serial decode is definitely not "robust", perhaps useable but quirky?

I could accept it on the 1000/2000 series, not on the 4000s.  I've reported it to Rigol, they don't give a shit.

Offline Sailor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #108 on: April 02, 2014, 01:23:10 pm »
Serial decode is definitely not "robust", perhaps useable but quirky?


I think your being generous.

Do others have significant problems?

 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #109 on: April 03, 2014, 12:19:46 am »
Does everyone else have problems with RS232 decoding on a DS4000/MSO4000 at the higher baud rates (e.g. 57600, 115200, ...)?
@Sailor I think the DS2000 Firmware was based on the DS4000 ,and in the DS2000 firmware there was a bug that for RS232 decoding of  56K(fixed) was in correcting programmed for 56000!! this was indicated by varying the speed and the center frequency of NO errors was 56000.(55200-56800)
Now if the USER specified rate was  used and set to 57600 the decoding would work OK.
You may wish to give USER a try.

Here are  2 E-mails I received from  Rigol  CN
=====================================
Dear Sir,
   Thank you very much for your report .
I checked with R&D ,it's a mistake in the menu ,it should be 56000bps, we
will fix this bug in next version about 3 months later .
And sorry for the inconvenience bring to you .
Any further questions please feel free to contact me .
Best regards£¬
Vivien Liu/ÁõΡΡ
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir
     OK,I agree with you,I will check with R&D .
Maybe 57600 is right ,then just need change internal programme .
Any further questions please feel free to contact me .
Best regards,
Vivien Liu/???
Marketing Department
RIGOL Technologies,INC.
TEL:010-80706688-811
http://www.rigol.com

===========================

Maybe there still is a Bug for 115200 in the DS2000, I'll check
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #110 on: April 03, 2014, 02:33:54 am »
Now if the USER specified rate was  used and set to 57600 the decoding would work OK.
You may wish to give USER a try.

I agree that would be well worth trying.  It may be that the decode itself is actually fine, but the baud rate is off, so it will never sync up properly.

Quote
...E-mails I received from  Rigol  CN
=====================================
we will fix this bug in next version about 3 months later.

That's rather disappointing.  When there are known defects, you're just supposed to live with them for N+3 months.  I don't think the last version was N=0 months ago, so the total time gets long.  And I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time they've heard about this problem.
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #111 on: April 03, 2014, 07:36:49 am »
@Sailor
Did you set the  Trigger to RS232, at correct settings?  (rate and levels)
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Sailor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #112 on: April 03, 2014, 12:20:13 pm »

Thanks for your comments. Yes, Teneyes, the bus setup and the trigger setup are good. My 115200 baud tests use a 1000-byte stream, output at full rate i.e. there is only approx 2 usec from the end of a stop bit to the beginning of the next start bit. The waveform quality and timing is excellent. I have tested different memory sizes, starting with a fast time/div setting, and repeating with slower time/div until it fails. Here are simple results:

Memory = 1.4MB
Works at 2msec/div, 5msec/div (probably also at shorter rates).
Fails at 10, 20, 50, ... ms/div

Memory = 14MB
Works at 2msec/div, 5msec/div (probably also at shorter rates).
Fails at 10, 20, 50, ... ms/div

Memory = 140MB
Works at 2msec/div, 5msec/div, 10msec/div, 20msec/div (probably also at shorter rates).
Fails at 50, 100 ... ms/div

Obviously, as the time/div goes up, the sampling rate decreases, for a given memory size. But the sampling rates at which it works and at which it fails are not consistent across the different memory sizes. I really can't see the logic behind the failures.

Maybe it's something to do with their algorithm. Certainly its fast, only taking 2-3 seconds (although panning back and forward is painful). My Tektronix MSO4034 takes nearly a minute to decode 10MB of memory, but it works every time, every setting, no problem.

Another gripe: Trying to set a USER baud rate is a lost cause on this scope. The numbers change nice and smoothly for a while, then suddenly jump wildly, by hundreds-to-thousands of counts. Turning the knob backwards a little (if the numbers had jumped forward) will often produce a jump back to near the value that you were at when the first jump occurred. Or not!

 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #113 on: April 03, 2014, 12:45:37 pm »
As I wrote earlier in the thread I emailed Rigol with a detailed description of the problems I've had with the decoders on my DS4k. I was quite open to the fact that I had it set up wrong and was hoping for an answer simply telling me that. I also asked for a document outlining how to get the most performance possible out of the decoders.

But no, a gentlemen replied and after some beating around the bush asking me to upgrade the firmware to the version I clearly stated I was already running he said he'd set up a test in order to see if he could reproduce my issues - well, that's kind....  Then I heard nothing.

A week later I emailed him to which he replied that he hadn't made any progress and that, I quote: I expect there are still some issues with the decoder. And that's it.

As I see it, it can be made to kind of "work" but it's so far away from what it could (and should) be that I'd never ever pay what they are charging for it.
IMO it's slow, really slow. And YES I have set the memory depth to minimum, 14kpts. Obviously one can't expect to get performance like on the Agilent 3000X etc due to the software vs hardware aproach to decoding but I still feel it's REALLY SLOOOOW (a couple of frames per second IME). In an effort to get around that I thought I'd use the segmentet memory but the decoders doesn't work on recorded frames....and so on.

So yes, others (like me) are having significant problems and no Rigol doesn't seem to give a shit.
 

Offline georges80

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 843
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #114 on: April 03, 2014, 05:45:53 pm »
Interesting thread and thanks to the folk that have posted to it.

I'm considering a new scope and the toss up (in the $3k - $4k) range is Rigol, Agilent & Tek.

Tek seems a 'little' behind the times in the current state of the art, so bang is less for the buck than the other two. My concern with Rigol is that I think it's a tail trying to wag the dog problem in terms of getting Rigol (US/EU etc) to push for firmware bug fix requests back to the actual developers in China.

Given the cost delta between Rigol and the equivalent bandwidth Agilent is maybe 20 - 30%, this thread has convinced me to focus on the Agilent DSOX2000/3000 series where at least there's a more direct line from sales to tech. For a piece of test equipment that IS used daily and has an expected life cycle of 5+ years, penny wise and pound foolish needs to be addressed in the purchasing process.

cheers,
george.
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2014, 06:09:29 pm »
Another gripe: Trying to set a USER baud rate is a lost cause on this scope. The numbers change nice and smoothly for a while, then suddenly jump wildly, by hundreds-to-thousands of counts. Turning the knob backwards a little (if the numbers had jumped forward) will often produce a jump back to near the value that you were at when the first jump occurred. Or not!

I agree that trying to use the Multifunction knob for this is a frustrating exercise.  Have you tried using the Navigation knobs?
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #116 on: April 03, 2014, 06:53:03 pm »
I think the DS2000 Firmware was based on the DS4000 (...)
Everything is based on that old DS6000 scope, I think.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #117 on: April 03, 2014, 07:02:22 pm »
The 2000s just got a major firmware revision bump (it's now listed on the Rigol site), perhaps the 4000s will see an improvement soon.

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #118 on: April 03, 2014, 07:32:54 pm »
Another gripe: Trying to set a USER baud rate is a lost cause on this scope. The numbers change nice and smoothly for a while, then suddenly jump wildly, by hundreds-to-thousands of counts. Turning the knob backwards a little (if the numbers had jumped forward) will often produce a jump back to near the value that you were at when the first jump occurred. Or not!
My DS2000 has the Navigation Knob to adjust the USER define Bitrate, Yes the outer Knob jumps , but the inner Know moves 1 bit at a click , it does take many rotation to change 300 counts.
Does the 4000 have the fine control knob?
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #119 on: April 03, 2014, 08:43:27 pm »
The 2000s just got a major firmware revision bump (it's now listed on the Rigol site)...

"Major" in terms of functionality or fixes?  Or "Major" in terms of Version number?  ;)
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #120 on: April 03, 2014, 08:57:07 pm »
The 2000s just got a major firmware revision bump (it's now listed on the Rigol site)...

"Major" in terms of functionality or fixes?  Or "Major" in terms of Version number?  ;)

lol, knowing them they just bumped the big number hoping shit would fix itself!

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #121 on: April 03, 2014, 09:50:27 pm »
lol, knowing them they just bumped the big number hoping shit would fix itself!

 :-DD
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #122 on: April 03, 2014, 11:34:25 pm »
Interesting thread and thanks to the folk that have posted to it.

I'm considering a new scope and the toss up (in the $3k - $4k) range is Rigol, Agilent & Tek.

Tek seems a 'little' behind the times in the current state of the art, so bang is less for the buck than the other two. My concern with Rigol is that I think it's a tail trying to wag the dog problem in terms of getting Rigol (US/EU etc) to push for firmware bug fix requests back to the actual developers in China.

Given the cost delta between Rigol and the equivalent bandwidth Agilent is maybe 20 - 30%, this thread has convinced me to focus on the Agilent DSOX2000/3000 series where at least there's a more direct line from sales to tech. For a piece of test equipment that IS used daily and has an expected life cycle of 5+ years, penny wise and pound foolish needs to be addressed in the purchasing process.

cheers,
george.

Sadly I'd have to agree after a unsatisfying warranty repair experience.  Scope was less than 2 months old, they had it for repair for 1 month! They sent it back yesterday with one of the stickers on the back missing and the warranty void sticker "voided".  Adhesive is still showing on the removed stickers.  It looks like second hand junk now which really sucks.  I'm surprised they didn't replace the labels.  Thank god I had other scopes and I wasn't relying on this one.  An entire month without the primary scope probably would put us out of business!
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #123 on: April 04, 2014, 01:02:34 am »
Sadly I'd have to agree after a unsatisfying warranty repair experience.  Scope was less than 2 months old, they had it for repair for 1 month! They sent it back yesterday with one of the stickers on the back missing and the warranty void sticker "voided".  Adhesive is still showing on the removed stickers.  It looks like second hand junk now which really sucks.  I'm surprised they didn't replace the labels.  Thank god I had other scopes and I wasn't relying on this one.  An entire month without the primary scope probably would put us out of business!

Well, that's a pretty damning experience!  Did they at least fix the rail-to-rail noise issue, and other problems you were having?


>  It looks like second hand junk now which really sucks.

That's totally unacceptable for a newly purchased, 2-month old DS4104.   :wtf:  I'd be furious.   :box:

Have you contacted Chris Armstrong at all?  He's the head honco (General Manager) at Rigol US, and I'd think he'd want to know about the QoS his techs are providing (or lack thereof).  His email is: carmstrong@rigol.com, just in case you don't already have it.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #124 on: April 04, 2014, 03:46:18 pm »
At my DSOX2000, there were no warranty void labels. They also were not on Tek DPO2000 that my friend bought a year ago.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #125 on: April 04, 2014, 06:08:28 pm »
Sadly I'd have to agree after a unsatisfying warranty repair experience.  Scope was less than 2 months old, they had it for repair for 1 month! They sent it back yesterday with one of the stickers on the back missing and the warranty void sticker "voided".  Adhesive is still showing on the removed stickers.  It looks like second hand junk now which really sucks.  I'm surprised they didn't replace the labels.  Thank god I had other scopes and I wasn't relying on this one.  An entire month without the primary scope probably would put us out of business!

Well, that's a pretty damning experience!  Did they at least fix the rail-to-rail noise issue, and other problems you were having?


>  It looks like second hand junk now which really sucks.

That's totally unacceptable for a newly purchased, 2-month old DS4104.   :wtf:  I'd be furious.   :box:

Have you contacted Chris Armstrong at all?  He's the head honco (General Manager) at Rigol US, and I'd think he'd want to know about the QoS his techs are providing (or lack thereof).  His email is: carmstrong@rigol.com, just in case you don't already have it.


No I haven't contacted Chris, though he was copied on one of the emails during the delayed repair.  I'll give the engineers a chance to respond and then I'll give Chris a shout.

It certainly is a bummer because I've gotten several customers switched over to buying 3 or 4 pieces of Rigol test equipment every month now and I am starting to wonder if that was a good idea.
 

Offline Sailor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #126 on: April 05, 2014, 02:02:47 am »

I've decided that there are too many things about the Rigol MSO4000 that I don't like, so it will be going back to the distributor next week. Instead, I bit the bullet last night and bought this Agilent MSO7054B

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-MSO7054B-Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscope-4-analog-plus-16-digital-channels/121297000471?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.RVI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D21021%26meid%3D5800756591393017463%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D9336%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D331161906210

I probably can't remember all the little things that annoyed me about the Rigol, but some of the main points were:

1. The way the cursors work - measurements tied to both being on-screen at the same time; not being always-displayed in the upper screen during zoom; the way that the cursor sometimes moves slightly (relative to the waveform) during zoom-in/zoom-out operations, even though you haven't touched the multi-function knob; etc etc.
2. The way RS232 decoding works - or not, at high baud rates, and consequently what this says about their algorithm; the slow panning; the way that the decode isn't cleared from the screen when you arm for another single-shot (a bit trivial I know, but it irritates me); the way that it doesn't work in segmentation; and more...
3. The slow function of the GUI in general.
4. The lack of Mark/Search functions, which should be a no-brainer when you have such incredibly deep memory capability.
5. The sometimes erratic operation of the MF knob (probably firmware, but who knows...)

and, as I said above, a bunch of other things that I don't remember at the moment.

Many of the points are related to the work that I do, and the way that I do it. A personal thing, but that's the way it is, and I figure that I would wind up chucking the scope against a brick wall if I had to use it continually.

All of which is a pity, because I reckon the general look and feel, panel layout, and the GUI design are *really* good, but I have this gut feeling that I wouldn't be able to always trust the scope, and that I wouldn't be able to trust Rigol to correct some of the things within an appropriate time-frame. With the older (analogue) Tektronix scopes, and now their MSO4034 I have never wondered if the scope is lying to me or not, so I don't waste time looking for things that aren't there, and so on.

These comments will be going to the local rep, who I've known for 30 years or more. He will probably be disappointed, but I think it needs to be said. If others have a pet peeve about the 4000 series that bothers them, please tell me and I'll include it. If they hear the same things often enough from a broad base of users, it may filter through (case in point - when my question/criticism about measurements involving off-screen cursor(s)  was put to Rigol, the reply was instantaneous and to the point - no, it's not possible, the capability doesn't fit in with the way the cursors are implemented, and there won't be any change. I reckon they had been asked that question more than once or twice already ;)).

On the other hand, if anyone thinks that I am being unreasonable, then also tell me.
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #127 on: April 05, 2014, 03:51:58 am »
You are spot on. The agilent 7000 series is awesome and I've gotten a lot of good use from them. Also not perfect for serial decode and analysis but a very nice system overall. I'd still probably use a saleae over buying the decodes on the stipend based on experience using both.
 

Offline Sailor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #128 on: April 05, 2014, 04:51:36 am »

Now that I'm moving to the Agilent side of things ... I see mention of PC S/W such as Vector Signal Analysis,  and Matlab GUIs and/or scripts ... Has any of that made it out into the wild (cough), or is it still held fairly close?
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #129 on: April 05, 2014, 05:28:44 am »

I've decided that there are too many things about the Rigol MSO4000 that I don't like, so it will be going back to the distributor next week. Instead, I bit the bullet last night and bought this Agilent MSO7054B...

A beautiful piece of test equipment, for those with deep enough pockets to afford one.  :)  I suspect you'll really enjoy using it.  (All I have in my pockets is lint  :-DD )

Quote
I probably can't remember all the little things that annoyed me about the Rigol, but some of the main points were:

2. The way ... decoding ... doesn't work in segmentation

That's such a ridiculous limitation, I'd almost stop right there!  And when I asked Rigol (China) about this, they claimed it worked OK decoding segmented Frames.  I'm assuming they didn't understand the question I was asking... but I was pretty explicit.  Maybe I should ask again, because this is something they shouldn't be short-changing.

Quote
4. The lack of Mark/Search functions, which should be a no-brainer when you have such incredibly deep memory capability.

Agreed!  Having huge acquisition capacity is great.  And Rigol comes with some of the deepest available, anywhere near their price ranges.  But providing no way to find specific things in it is just silly.  It's not even a hardware thing.  We're talking about post-acquisition processing, a Search and Tag capability, using the existing Trigger conditions.  Really just another subroutine, like the post-analysis it does provide (only on segments!) to find frames that deviate from a Template, or fail to fit a Mask.  Same deal, just scan the existing buffer for Trigger-selected matches, tag those spots, and let the operator jump back and forth between them.

Not exactly rocket-science, but its absence really negatively impacts the value of that deep memory.
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #130 on: April 05, 2014, 07:26:32 am »
Mark,
Are you saying that you've asked Rigol directly about using the decoders on recorded frames and they said it was, or should be, working?

I certainly can't make it work. As soon as the record feature is enabled the decoder locks up completely displaying the same data on the screen even though the actual trach changes. Recording frames without the decoder turned on and THEN turning on the deocder while "browsing" the frames is also a no-go.

My contact couldn't (or atleast didn't) even say if it was supposed to work.
 

Offline Sailor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #131 on: April 05, 2014, 07:34:44 am »
  I suspect you'll really enjoy using it.

I sure hope so. One of the things that attracted me (there were many) was the 'Sequence' trigger type. I can only go by the User Manual at the moment, but it seems that you define a set of conditions (i.e. a trigger) that starts the ball rolling, followed by another set of conditions which then must be met in order to start the acquisition. And you can define a 'Reset' set of conditions that take you back to the beginning. And those conditions are drawn from all analogue and digital channels, the external trigger input, and maybe the Line trigger and a Timeout value. If that all works the way that I hope it does, it will go a long way toward removing my concerns over the 8MB memory limit, which is less than I am used to with the Tek MSO4034.

It's just over a week since I asked the distributor to check with China about the likelihood of a Mark/Search function. I haven't heard anything.
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #132 on: April 05, 2014, 07:38:51 am »
That's such a ridiculous limitation, I'd almost stop right there!  And when I asked Rigol (China) about this, they claimed it worked OK decoding segmented Frames.  I'm assuming they didn't understand the question I was asking... but I was pretty explicit.  Maybe I should ask again, because this is something they shouldn't be short-changing.
I am not sure this is applicatable as this test was done on a DS2000 , where decoding at 115.2Kb/s using  scope at 20ms/div and 56Mpts, and recorded 2 frames.
 I show 1st & 2nd frame,  I am not sure how one would set up triggering  to capture frames in segments?
maybe trigger on an Hex Byte that only occurs at the point of interest  :-//

Yes the DSO is slow, It took about 1.5s to display just the trace when move to the second Frame and about 6 seconds to display the decoded Hex of that 2nd Frame
I show more on the DS2000 forum
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 08:08:10 am by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #133 on: April 05, 2014, 08:36:20 am »
Mark,
Are you saying that you've asked Rigol directly about using the decoders on recorded frames and they said it was, or should be, working?

Yes.

Quote
I certainly can't make it work.

That's what I've heard from several others as well.  Which is why I contacted Rigol.

Quote
As soon as the record feature is enabled the decoder locks up completely displaying the same data on the screen even though the actual trach changes.

I'm not as concerned about that.  It may simply be too slow to keep up.

Quote
Recording frames without the decoder turned on and THEN turning on the decoder while "browsing" the frames is also a no-go.

...but this I would definitely expect to work.
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #134 on: April 05, 2014, 08:45:01 am »
I am not sure this is applicatable as this test was done on a DS2000 , where decoding at 115.2Kb/s using  scope at 20ms/div and 56Mpts, and recorded 2 frames.
 I show 1st & 2nd frame,

Very, very interesting!  Thanks, teneyes.  That sure seems to show that it's possible.  Perhaps there's some trick to the process, that is non-obvious and others have missed?

Quote
I am not sure how one would set up triggering  to capture frames in segments?
maybe trigger on an Hex Byte that only occurs at the point of interest  :-//

I can't provide details, since I don't have one here, but in general, depending on what the protocol was, you'd set up to trigger on SOF (start of frame), or a specific field value match (address, for example).

Quote
Yes the DSO is slow, It took about 1.5s to display just the trace when move to the second Frame and about 6 seconds to display the decoded Hex of that 2nd Frame

I don't mind the 'Slow', as much as the 'Doesn't Work At All'.  :)  But those times do seem much slower than I've normally seen reported, even for the Rigols.  Perhaps there's something else going on, but it sure shouldn't take 6 seconds for it to process 700 bytes of data from the screen (the only place it gets the data to decode a protocol), and display the string.

Quote
I show more on the DS2000 forum

I'll go look there as well. 
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #135 on: April 05, 2014, 08:51:58 am »
I am not sure this is applicatable as this test was done on a DS2000 , where decoding at 115.2Kb/s using  scope at 20ms/div and 56Mpts, and recorded 2 frames.
 I show 1st & 2nd frame...

Yes the DSO is slow, It took about 1.5s to display just the trace when move to the second Frame and about 6 seconds to display the decoded Hex of that 2nd Frame

OK.  I just took a closer look, and it seems like you may have captured just two very large frames?  And are zooming in in on a small slice in each, to see a reasonable number of decoded bytes on screen?  I.e., you could then scroll back and forth within each of those frames, and see a LOT more data.

If that is the case, then that explains why it's taking so long.  Each Frame you're stepping to (if you only set it for 2), is pulling 28MB of data from one buffer into another.  Then interpreting and displaying it.
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #136 on: April 05, 2014, 09:20:10 am »
Perhaps there's something else going on, but it sure shouldn't take 6 seconds for it to process 700 bytes of data from the screen (the only place it gets the data to decode a protocol), and display the string.
I figure   3200 Bytes;
            analyzed from 32000 Bits:
            which are determined from 56,000,000 Pts
            interpolated from  56,000,000 samples,
            over the 280ms of the display,
            and processed in ZOOM mode. 
            ( in SOftware)
Note:  if Not in Zoom mode the decoding from Frame to Frame is lees than  a Second
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 02:30:22 pm by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #137 on: April 05, 2014, 10:54:17 am »
Perhaps there's something else going on, but it sure shouldn't take 6 seconds for it to process 700 bytes of data from the screen (the only place it gets the data to decode a protocol), and display the string.
I figure   3200 Bytes;
            analyzes from 32000 Bits:
            which are determined from 56,000,000 Pts
            interpolated from  560,000,000 samples,
            over the 280ms of the display,
            and processed in ZOOM mode. 
            ( in SOftware)

I'm not so sure about all those numbers (I'm way past my bedtime), but if THAT's all you're talking about, then gee, why isn't it instantaneous?   :-DD

Quote
Note:  if Not in Zoom mode the decoding from Frame to Frame is lees than  a Second

Sounds good to me, and more like what I'd expect.

I think what would be helpful would be to set up a meaningful test (where each packet isn't so enormous, and you don't have to zoom in so far to see the bytes).  I don't know what you have available to you, but it looks like you have at least a UART output at 115kBaud.  Most such comms are in packet-type bursts, of from 3-30 bytes, so set up your transmitter to send various strings of about 20 bytes, with maybe 1 or 2 ms gaps between them.

Then set up the scope for RS232 Triggering, on Start bit.  And set a sample rate that will give you several samples for each 8.7 us bit-cell.  (1 MSa/s should be more than adequate for 115k serial.)  Then configure the RecordMode to grab a large number of frames, such that the duration of each will contain at least 200-bits x your samples/bit.  You might also want to set the RecordMode gap to something ~500 us.

What you should wind up capturing is a lot of records (frames, packets).  And you should then be able to step through them, and zoom in enough to comfortably see about 7 bytes at a time (as you've already demonstrated).  And then scroll through the bytes within that packet.  And step to the next/previous packet.  See how effectively the Rigol handles that.

That's the kind of real-world scenario it's likely to be used in.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 10:58:19 am by Mark_O »
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #138 on: April 05, 2014, 11:57:05 am »
Here are the details on the test I did, and just re-did just to verify I wasn't goofing it up:

Packets of 6 bytes were sent at a baudrate of 38400, only the last byte in the packet changed. "Test n" where n incremented from A to Z and then started over

* Trigger set to RS232, invert, start, 38400 baud, normal sweep (of course)
* I locked the memory depth to 14kpts which is the lowest possible setting.
* I set the timebase to 200us/div in order to be able to fit my "long" 6byte packet on the screen.
* This resulted in a sample rate of 5Msps.

With 14 divisions each 200us "long" we've got 2.8ms worth of data on the screen which matches 14kpts/5Msps. In theory we should be able to get 357 waveform updates per second minus some for the screen processing etc. I connected a frequency counter to the TrigOut connector of the DS4k to measure this.

The first test is to shoot frames into the DS4k without having the decoder enabled. I decided to try with 5ms "silence" between each 6byte packet to see what happend. The frequency counter says 165 waveform updates per second which is exactly the number of packets sent per second - no issues with that what so ever.

Now, turning on the decoder. The waveform update rate is still quite OK but it's not very stable. The frequency counter is jumping between ~130 and 165Hz but the decoder on the screen is nowhere NEAR that speed - obviously.

So where is the lower limit then, with these settings. With the 250ms between packets it's almost able to decode and present each packet on the sceren. I've only seen it "skip" once in a while so I'd say I'm just on the edge there. Yes, the frequency counter reports 4 waveform updates per second - as expected. Obviously there's no need for the decoder to update the displayed data faster then you can read but really, 4 times per second IS slow IMO.

So then I hit the Record button, what happends is that the scope starts recording frames at a rate of 4 per second obviously - as expected. The decoder on the other hand completely freezes and displays the decoded data of the last packet captured before the Record button was pressed. That's not cool if you ask me.

Stopping the recording and then "browsing" thru the recorded frames with the jog wheel does NOT update the decoded data displayed on the screen. It's completely frozen with whatever data was there when the record button was pressed.

Then lets try and record frames without having the decoder enabled during recording, stopping the recording function and THEN enable the decoder. Guess what, it STILL displays that very same data from when the Record button was pressed with the decoder on the screen. And no, it does not update when browsing thru the recorded frames.

Now, if anyone can tell me what I'm doing wrong here then I'll be forever thankful because I think I've given the scope the best possible circumstances to do it's job and I don't think it does it very good at all.

EDIT: This is with Software version 00.02.01 as reported by the instrument.
EDIT2: 14kpts/56Msps corrected to 14kpts/5Msps
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 08:18:53 am by H.O »
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #139 on: April 06, 2014, 12:49:46 am »
Here are the details on the test I did, and just re-did just to verify I wasn't goofing it up:

Thanks for performing the tests, and the meticulous description of your process.

Quote
Packets of 6 bytes were sent at a baudrate of 38400, only the last byte in the packet changed. "Test n" where n incremented from A to Z and then started over

* Trigger set to RS232, invert, start, 38400 baud, normal sweep (of course)
* I locked the memory depth to 14kpts which is the lowest possible setting.
* I set the timebase to 200us/div in order to be able to fit my "long" 6byte packet on the screen.
* This resulted in a sample rate of 5Msps.

This is a very reasonable and realistic "light-weight" protocol test.

Quote
With 14 divisions each 200us "long" we've got 2.8ms worth of data on the screen which matches 14kpts/56Msps.

??  I think you may have meant, "14kpts/5Msps"?

Quote
Now, turning on the decoder. The waveform update rate is still quite OK but it's not very stable. The frequency counter is jumping between ~130 and 165Hz but the decoder on the screen is nowhere NEAR that speed - obviously.

Nothing really surprising there.  Your next step was very good though.

Quote
So where is the lower limit then, with these settings. With the 250ms between packets it's almost able to decode and present each packet on the sceren. I've only seen it "skip" once in a while so I'd say I'm just on the edge there. Yes, the frequency counter reports 4 waveform updates per second - as expected. Obviously there's no need for the decoder to update the displayed data faster then you can read but really, 4 times per second IS slow IMO.

I agree that it's slow.  That's 250 ms, where only the first 3 ms is needed to acquire 14k samples.  Then it has to process those 14k, to decimate down to 700 screen points.  Updating the screen buffer takes a bit longer, since it has to merge into a variable intensity buffer first.  Lastly, it takes the 700 points, and software decodes into a byte stream, then updates the display with THAT ancillary information.  Normally when folks try this, they do it with WAY too much sample data.  But you used 14k, which was just right.  And 250 ms/update seems too long to me as well.  Especially on a DS4000.  I might be more forgiving on a DS1000Z.

Quote
So then I hit the Record button, what happends is that the scope starts recording frames at a rate of 4 per second obviously - as expected. The decoder on the other hand completely freezes and displays the decoded data of the last packet captured before the Record button was pressed. That's not cool if you ask me.

I concur with your "not cool" assessment, however you already knew you were right on the threshold of what it could handle and process at 4fps, BEFORE adding the RecordMode overhead.  Freezing at that point isn't overly surprising (to me), though obviously that's not desirable.

Quote
Stopping the recording and then "browsing" thru the recorded frames with the jog wheel does NOT update the decoded data displayed on the screen. It's completely frozen with whatever data was there when the record button was pressed.

:(  Not good.  Though I might see how having both enabled simultaneously might not be "the way to do it".  Doing so certainly brought you no benefits.

Quote
Then lets try and record frames without having the decoder enabled during recording, stopping the recording function and THEN enable the decoder. Guess what, it STILL displays that very same data from when the Record button was pressed with the decoder on the screen. And no, it does not update when browsing thru the recorded frames.

OK, that's bad.   :wtf:  I would definitely expect that to work, no question.  It sounds broken to me.  Though from Teneyes report, it sounds like it DOES work on his DS2000.

Quote
Now, if anyone can tell me what I'm doing wrong here then I'll be forever thankful because I think I've given the scope the best possible circumstances to do it's job and I don't think it does it very good at all.  This is with Software version 00.02.01 as reported by the instrument.

I don't think you did anything wrong.  (Well, your last comment should have been "very well", not "very good". ;) )  Your last test should have worked properly, as far as I can see.  I'll report this to Rigol, specifically mentioning the DS4000 this time.  My previous assumption was if it worked on one, it would likely work on all.  But if it worked on a lower model, it must certainly work on the higher ones.  That's why I think I specifically inquired about the DS1000Z, back in ? February maybe?

Thanks for taking the time to fully test this out, rather than just complaining "it doesn't work".   :-+  In my opinion, this is a "big deal".  Why?  Because Rigol promotes their scopes as having advanced features like protocol decoding.  It looks good on a Feature List, but if the d@mn thing doesn't work, it's no good to anyone (other than the marketing guys).
 

Offline Sailor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #140 on: April 06, 2014, 03:42:42 am »
Now, if anyone can tell me what I'm doing wrong here then I'll be forever thankful ...

Ditto. After Teneyes post I thought that there must be some obscure setting, or sequence in doing things that I hadn't tried, so I re-visited it. But no, it is just plain stuck with the last-frame decode and nothing will change it. There are other weird things also, such as the decode data display occupying more of the horizontal space on the screen than the actual signal trace does. This isn't always the case, but it's a state that you can get into when adjusting the trigger delay etc. They pan left/right in unison, but the decode starts before the signal trace.

I'm pretty much fed up with this aspect of it.

Changing to something else about decodes, but not involving the RECORD side of things:

In real-world situations your captured data may well start in the middle of a character, so the decode will (may) screw up (fair enough), but if the character stream has essentially no gap between the end of a stop bit and the next start bit, and if the bit arrangement in successive characters is 'just right', the decode stream may not flag any errors, yet be displaying totally wrong information. Such a condition does not reflect any discredit on the scope, but there should be an option in the decode menu that allows the user (with a priori knowlege of the expected data) to specify (e.g. with a cursor) exactly where the decode operation should start. Implicit in setting that cursor value would be a 're-run' of the decode operation.

I think that would be a very useful capability.
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #141 on: April 06, 2014, 05:05:50 am »



... but there should be an option in the decode menu that allows the user (with a priori knowlege of the expected data) to specify (e.g. with a cursor) exactly where the decode operation should start. Implicit in setting that cursor value would be a 're-run' of the decode operation.

I think that would be a very useful capability.

I think you are asking for a lot here.  I've never seen a serial decoder that does this not Saleae, not Lecroy, not Agilent.

All the hardware decoders I have used (Agilent, Tek, and now Rigol) really pretty much suck and don't have functions that you often say "well this is obvious and easy why doesn't it do this"
 

Offline Sailor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #142 on: April 06, 2014, 05:43:00 am »

Ahhh... maybe I should have been a bit more explicit. My thinking related to the decode of single-shot data in memory (almost all of my work is done in single-shot mode). Whether or not an instrument has hardware-decode capability, non-realtime decode of static data in memory is a snap.
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #143 on: April 06, 2014, 08:42:21 am »
Hi,
Quote
??  I think you may have meant, "14kpts/5Msps"?
Yes of course, it's been corrected.

Quote
I agree that it's slow.  That's 250 ms, where only the first 3 ms is needed to acquire 14k samples.  Then it has to process those 14k, to decimate down to 700 screen points.  Updating the screen buffer takes a bit longer, since it has to merge into a variable intensity buffer first.
Correct but the lack of performance has nothing to do with the display buffer, intensity grading and what not because it's perfectly capable of doing that at 165 frames per second when the decoders are turned OFF. Obviously the screen isn't updated 165 times per second but it sure is updated faster then 4Hz.

Quote
I don't think you did anything wrong.
Thanks, I feel that it has kind of been the problem with all the discussions on the issues with the protocol decoders. Almost everyone who has said they are having issues with them have been told they must be doing it wrong.

Quote
Thanks for taking the time to fully test this out, rather than just complaining "it doesn't work...
Not a problem, and this is the same test I've done before when I was complaining "it doesn't work" and I have reported it to Rigol. I've included their response earlier in the thread. One thing that I did differently this time thru was to use the RS232 trigger while I used normal falling edge trigger last time. It doesn't seem to make any difference what so ever in this particular setup.

If you do contact Rigol again please do keep us updated!

Thanks!
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #144 on: April 06, 2014, 08:43:45 am »
Packets of 6 bytes were sent at a baudrate of 38400, only the last byte in the packet changed. "Test n" where n incremented from A to Z and then started over
* Trigger set to RS232, invert, start, 38400 baud, normal sweep (of course)
* I locked the memory depth to 14kpts which is the lowest possible setting.
* I set the timebase to 200us/div in order to be able to fit my "long" 6byte packet on the screen.
* This resulted in a sample rate of 5Msps.
Now, if anyone can tell me what I'm doing wrong here then I'll be forever thankful because I think I've given the scope the best possible circumstances to do it's job and I don't think it does it very good at all./size]
@H.O.
While trying to recreate your error, I found the trigger seem to have a jitter , and to investigate I did a simple test and found jitter with bursts of pulses,see Pix
I think your problem is related to this quirk, bug I found on my DS2000.

Check it out on the DS2000 Blog Here

"I decided to try with 5ms "silence" between each 6byte packet to see what happend. "
@H.O.  is it possible to try with a longer Silence period between bursts
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 09:08:27 am by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #145 on: April 06, 2014, 09:21:34 am »
Hi,
I'm not sure I'm following....
How do you mean the issues with the decoder not working properly is related to trigger jitter? Thru out my tests the triggering has been rock solid.

All tests with the record mode described earlier was done with 250ms silence between packets.

I'd be happy to do more tests here but I need to understand the purpose and what I'm looking for, right now I don't quite understand what you mean...
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #146 on: April 06, 2014, 09:25:22 am »

"I decided to try with 5ms "silence" between each 6byte packet to see what happend. "

@H.O.  is it possible to try with a longer Silence period between bursts

He's already got a configuration with only 1.6 ms of databurst (60 bits), inside a 2.8 ms sample window, followed by ~250 ms dead times.  That's already pretty lightweight.

Are you suspecting he's overdriving it?   :-//

Did the jitter you encountered at specific burst delays result in your being unable to decode frames as well?  You jumped into a discussion of another issue, without saying whether or not your DS2000 worked with the same config H.O had used.
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2014, 09:38:10 am »
Did the jitter you encountered at specific burst delays result in your being unable to decode frames as well?  You jumped into a discussion of another issue, without saying whether or not your DS2000 worked with the same config H.O had used.
I was testing with the original 5ms quite between 6 bytes of data ,and  all was OK at 500us ,with decoding , but at 1ms/div , all jitter happened.
I stopped decoding,
I change to less bytes
I varied the silence period and found that quirk.
I was wondering if it occurs on the DS4000 aLso
Now I will try the long decoding test with longer silence period
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #148 on: April 06, 2014, 09:52:44 am »
H.O, I was re-reading your description, and had another thought.  I bolded a few things that jumped out at me.

Here are the details on the test I did, and just re-did just to verify I wasn't goofing it up:

...

So then I hit the Record button, what happends is that the scope starts recording frames at a rate of 4 per second obviously - as expected. The decoder on the other hand completely freezes and displays the decoded data of the last packet captured before the Record button was pressed.

Stopping the recording and then "browsing" thru the recorded frames with the jog wheel does NOT update the decoded data displayed on the screen. It's completely frozen with whatever data was there when the record button was pressed.

Then lets try and record frames without having the decoder enabled during recording, stopping the recording function and THEN enable the decoder. Guess what, it STILL displays that very same data from when the Record button was pressed with the decoder on the screen. And no, it does not update when browsing thru the recorded frames.

I'm wondering if the first part is a real bug (locking up the Decoder with a real-time data stream), and it just stayed frozen from that point on?  I.e., if you hadn't run the first test (and confused it), and the Decoder hadn't frozen first, would your second test then have succeeded?

I'm not suggesting in any way it would [EDIT: well, yeah, I am suggesting it might :) ], but if it were me, that's something I'd give a try before giving up.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 09:58:58 am by Mark_O »
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #149 on: April 06, 2014, 10:11:03 am »
Teneyes,
I don't think it's a quirk. I think what's happening in your case is that at 1ms/div you're going to capture more than a single packet for each trigger event so "the next" trigger event will happen "in the middle" of the next a packet. You should be able to use trigger hold off to stabilise it.

Mark,
I just tried it. Cold booted the scope, recorded a couple of frames and then enabled the decoder. It pops up with decoded data from I don't know where/when but it still does not update when browsing thru the frames.

 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #150 on: April 06, 2014, 10:24:21 am »
Mark,
I just tried it. Cold booted the scope, recorded a couple of frames and then enabled the decoder. It pops up with decoded data from I don't know where/when but it still does not update when browsing thru the frames.

Sigh.  I had my fingers crossed.  Glad you eliminated that possibility though.

Quote
If you do contact Rigol again please do keep us updated!

I already had started writing something up, and came up with that (bogus) hypothesis when describing the issue.  Now that's been shot down, I'll finish my missive and fire it off.
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #151 on: April 06, 2014, 05:35:32 pm »
I cannot change the data in bytes so I changed the number of bytes (from 6 to 4 bytes)
I also Confirmed H.O.'s Bug report
I need 2 post
Here are the correct Frames (not recording)
Note I used Data trigger (xEF)
Note I used fine Timebase control to spread displayed bytes out
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #152 on: April 06, 2014, 06:06:48 pm »
I also Confirmed H.O.'s Bug report
in this .GIF  you can see recorded frames display the change in the Data waveforms
BUT the Decode data does NOT update
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #153 on: April 06, 2014, 06:14:06 pm »
On H.O.'s Bug report
these displays show that the DS2000 can decode data bursts, and I show in Zoom Mode

So I hypothesis that the record function in the FW does not  call the Decode function between segmented frames

I will be reporting this to Rigol NA as a DS2000 owner
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 03:03:24 pm by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #154 on: April 06, 2014, 06:41:29 pm »
Teneyes,
I don't think it's a quirk. I think what's happening in your case is that at 1ms/div you're going to capture more than a single packet for each trigger event so "the next" trigger event will happen "in the middle" of the next a packet. You should be able to use trigger hold off to stabilise it.
Good Pointt  H.O.
WHere is the Trigger Holdoff on a RS232 Trigger, see Pics   :-//
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #155 on: April 06, 2014, 07:58:43 pm »
Since I've got a 4k I obviously can't say for sure regarding the 2k (I suspect the manual will tell you though). On the 4k it's in te exact same place as it always is for any trigger..... Trigger menu -> Settings.
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #156 on: April 07, 2014, 06:50:58 am »
Since I've got a 4k I obviously can't say for sure regarding the 2k (I suspect the manual will tell you though). On the 4k it's in te exact same place as it always is for any trigger..... Trigger menu -> Settings.
Yes Edge trigger has Trigger Holdoff, (under settings)
But , Does the DS4000 have trigger Holdoff when one is using RS232 Trigger???

What do you think about this?
Hi Len,
It does not decode recorded frames. I thought this was reported and confirmed here awhile ago when first reported on one of the UltraVision models.
Hi Mark
It is not on your Bug list (post 3) and at first  I was thinking it was important. but Now as I was testing the best way to monitor a serial data stream is with a long buffer (using best Mem depth), then analyze by using the zoom feature , where the decoding does work.  and to record long frames, then zoom and scan the Data.  I guess the DSO is only a preliminary device for Serial Data debugging. I am not sure when data could be missed
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #157 on: April 07, 2014, 07:45:50 am »
Quote
But , Does the DS4000 have trigger Holdoff when one is using RS232 Trigger???
Yes it has, as you can see from the screenshot in my previous reply. I haven't tested if it actually WORKS but it's there.

I don't know why keep mixing responses from other threads but using a single capture into a deep memory buffer is not at all the same thing, or as usable IMO, as being able to use the segmentet memory. What if there's 30 seconds between packets?
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #158 on: April 07, 2014, 08:27:33 am »
...at first  I was thinking it was important. but Now as I was testing the best way to monitor a serial data stream is with a long buffer (using best Mem depth), then analyze by using the zoom feature , where the decoding does work.  and to record long frames, then zoom and scan the Data. 

I'm afraid you've missed the whole point of Segmented acquistions (RecordMode) in the first place.  In almost all communications protocols, there are not only gaps between requests & responses, but much longer gaps of 'dead time' between those pairs.  By recording just one Frame worth of data at each trigger, you can easily extend the time you can monitor by 10x, 100x, or even 1000x.  Using the shortest frames, that means up to 200k (!) msgs could be captured.  And Rigol brags about that 200k frame capability!

Let's take 1Mbit CAN for example.  I'd need to oversample that by at least 10x, so 10MSa/s.  Even with the superdeep 140 Mpts of the DS4000, that's only 14 seconds.  Which is <10k msgs at 10% bus loading (10x/20x worse).  With lighter traffic, it's even worse yet.  But with segmented captures, 100k msgs could be captured with ExtendedIDs (and 200k for StandardIDs).  And if I were using a more selective trigger (say specific address, not grabbing every message), I could filter out a lot of "uninteresting" msgs, and extend that time coverage even further.  But not with the method you're espousing.

I can tell you if I dropped the kind of money a DS4000 costs, I would d@mn sure expect this very useful function to work.  Great in theory (and advertising marketing), but doesn't work in practice is a huge  :--   :-- .   :palm:
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 08:30:20 am by Mark_O »
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #159 on: April 07, 2014, 08:32:44 am »
Oops, I shoulda read ahead.

...using a single capture into a deep memory buffer is not at all the same thing, or as usable IMO, as being able to use the segmented memory.

What if there's 30 seconds between packets?

Yeah!  Exactly.  What he said!  :D
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #160 on: April 07, 2014, 08:44:01 am »
I don't know why keep mixing responses from other threads...

I'm with H.O on this.  It's confusing.  I see a bunch of your screen snaps, but without the Play=n frame counter, we're not talking about the same thing. 

This is complicated enough, trying to evaluate one issue at a time.  For me anyway, but perhaps I'm slow.   :-//  I'm happy to see you testing and posting.  (You're the only one I'm aware of who has managed to show segmented frames actually being decoded, though on a DS2000.)  But could we focus on one thing at a time?
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #161 on: April 07, 2014, 03:23:35 pm »
SOn the 4k it's in te exact same place as it always is for any trigger..... Trigger menu -> Settings.

That gives me 'Protocol Trigger Holdoff Envy'
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #162 on: April 07, 2014, 06:19:34 pm »
Please Note the decoding of recorded frames I show is available for the DS2000 only in the latest FW 00.03.00.00

The recording shown here are bursts of 70 bytes every 3 seconds

Does the DS4000 have this feature?  if Not it should be in the next FW release
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 06:51:02 pm by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #163 on: April 08, 2014, 05:09:26 am »
Hi Teneyes,
No, the DS4k does not decode data when "playing back" recorded frames - that feature not working has kind of been the key point of the discussions over the last several days.

Thank you very much(!) for confirming that it DOES now seem to work on the DS2k after upgrading to 00.03.00 - I sincerely hope it's just a matter of time untill Rigol releases "the same" firmware for the DS4k.
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #164 on: April 08, 2014, 05:24:19 am »
...at first  I was thinking it was important. but Now as I was testing the best way to monitor a serial data stream is with a long buffer (using best Mem depth), then analyze by using the zoom feature , where the decoding does work.  and to record long frames, then zoom and scan the Data. 
In almost all communications protocols, there are not only gaps between requests & responses, but much longer gaps of 'dead time' between those pairs.  By recording just one Frame worth of data at each trigger, you can easily extend the time you can monitor by 10x, 100x, or even 1000x.  Using the shortest frames, that means up to 200k (!) msgs could be captured.  And Rigol brags about that 200k frame capability!
Using my DS2000 (56Mpts) here is a test of capturing & decoding 508 frames X 465 byte blocks = 236,220  Bytes,
That's good for me.
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #165 on: April 08, 2014, 09:09:46 am »
Using my DS2000 (56Mpts) here is a test of capturing & decoding 508 frames X 465 byte blocks = 236,220  Bytes,
That's good for me.

Thanks, Teneyes!  Yes, you can capture up to 65,000 frames on the DS2000 (each probably around 700B, of course).  Fewer as you increase the frame size.  And yes, that capability, coupled with post acquisition decoding, can be very useful.

Thanks for cluing us in on the DS2000/FW3.0 dependency for this functionality.  I wasn't aware that many had even bothered trying it yet (or that you were one of them), since there were some questions initially about its legitimacy.  And those that had weren't noticing any significant improvements.  Naturally, Rigol isn't about to make a list of things they fixed.  That would require admitting that a capability that should have worked from day one (and they've been claiming did work), just showed up 2(?) years later.  (Though the DS4000 folks are still waiting, even longer.  :( )
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #166 on: April 08, 2014, 02:26:06 pm »
I wasn't aware that many had even bothered trying it yet (or that you were one of them), since there were some questions initially about its legitimacy.  And those that had weren't noticing any significant improvements.  Naturally, Rigol isn't about to make a list of things they fixed.  That would require admitting that a capability that should have worked from day one (and they've been claiming did work), just showed up 2(?) years later.  (Though the DS4000 folks are still waiting, even longer.  :( )
I am not sure I have the latest 'Offcial' version.
I know this FW has bugs that will freeze the DSO and I am disappointed that it does NOT fix the bugs we have reported to Rigol.  I hope the DS4000 owner's get a better release.  It was by accident that it was loaded, when I tried testing the Record & Decode function. The FW is a much larger file, going from 8MB to 10MB, so it should add something. (reports all Hacked DSO's IP addy if connected to Internet,  STUXNET2) ;)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 03:15:28 pm by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #167 on: April 08, 2014, 02:38:15 pm »
I am not sure I have the latest 'Offcial' version.
   :-DD

Quote
I know this FW has bugs that will freeze the DSO...
  :(

Quote
...and I am disappointed that it does fix the bugs we have reported to Rigol.

I think you meant to say, "doesn't".

Quote
The FW is a much larger file, going from 8MB to 10MB, so it should add something.

Yes.  As I mentioned somewhere else here in the Forum, the new FW adds a lot of code to support the LA functionality in the new MSO2000 models, along with SCPI support for same.
 

Offline farrell

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 15
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #168 on: May 11, 2014, 02:42:54 am »
I think I found another bug in the DS4014 firmware. I skimmed this thread and didn't see it listed.

When using the Math function, with an expression, the state is not saved when turning off the scope. After powering up the scope you must go back to the Math menu, reapply the expression, and reset the volts/div scale.

I just emailed Rigol about it, and recorded this clip to show them:



Can anyone else confirm this bug with their scope?

-Farrell
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #169 on: May 11, 2014, 05:09:24 pm »
To DS4000 owners:

I'm working on a new version of my Rigol Ultravision Utilities to handle all 4 channels of the DS4000 (as well as DS1000Zs). Since I don't own either DSO, I'd appreciate any owners willing to be alpha/beta testers. The link for the current alpha (as well as some explanatory info) is here.
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #170 on: May 11, 2014, 05:10:17 pm »
To DS4000 owners:

I'm working on a new version of my Rigol Ultravision Utilities to handle all 4 channels of the DS4000 (as well as DS1000Zs). Since I don't own either DSO, I'd appreciate any owners willing to be alpha/beta testers. The link for the current alpha (as well as some explanatory info) is here.

awesome will check it out on the ds4000
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #171 on: May 14, 2014, 05:34:05 pm »
Hi,

question concerning the HORIZONTAL knob of the DS4000 series:

when I turn it fast the timebase sometimes jumps back or foward.
When turning the knob slower there's absolute no problem.

Would be interested in your experience. Either the routine for the rotary knob is not implemented well or it seems to be
broken. Usually a gray code is used for decoding such kind of knobs.

Is there a bug in the DS4000 series?

Rgds
Gunb
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 05:35:39 pm by Gunb »
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #172 on: May 14, 2014, 05:44:35 pm »
Hi,

question concerning the HORIZONTAL knob of the DS4000 series:

when I turn it fast the timebase sometimes jumps back or foward.
When turning the knob slower there's absolute no problem.

Would be interested in your experience. Either the routine for the rotary knob is not implemented well or it seems to be
broken. Usually a gray code is used for decoding such kind of knobs.

Is there a bug in the DS4000 series?

Rgds
Gunb

It's probably just quadrature rather than gray code, but it doesn't matter, the darn thing should work :)

I'll check mine and see if it acts that way.  I bet they are not sampling the knob fast enough and it is skipping states making it look like it is going backwards.
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #173 on: May 14, 2014, 05:52:16 pm »
I'll check mine and see if it acts that way.  I bet they are not sampling the knob fast enough and it is skipping states making it look like it is going backwards.

... that would be nice, thank you.

Rgds
Gunb
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #174 on: May 14, 2014, 05:54:08 pm »
question concerning the HORIZONTAL knob of the DS4000 series:

when I turn it fast the timebase sometimes jumps back or foward.
When turning the knob slower there's absolute no problem.

I started having the same problem with the Horizontal scale knob on my DS2000 after about 14 or 15 months of owning it. I sent it back (to the dealer) for knob replacement while I was abroad a month ago. It's fine again.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 06:01:50 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #175 on: May 14, 2014, 08:47:42 pm »
I started having the same problem with the Horizontal scale knob on my DS2000 after about 14 or 15 months of owning it. I sent it back (to the dealer) for knob replacement while I was abroad a month ago. It's fine again.

OK, good to know. But annoying to send it to the service. Does anybody know the part no. of these digital potentiometer? I mean, I expect it will happen in the future again and it's not difficult to change these parts. Last year our company sent an old Agilent scope to the service with the same issue and it cost about 500,-€.

Rgds
Gunb
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: ca
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #176 on: May 14, 2014, 09:14:29 pm »
Hi,
question concerning the HORIZONTAL knob of the DS4000 series:
when I turn it fast the timebase sometimes jumps back or foward.
When turning the knob slower there's absolute no problem.
Hi
  Have You used the Key Test , see Pix below.

I had a RMA repair done on my DS2000 and received this note

----------------------------------
Hi xxxx,
We finished up repairing your scope.
I desoldered the remaining retention rings and cleaned the all of the vias.
Then, I soldered the new retention rings (Qty 4) in,

replaced the metal encoders on the keypad (a suggested upgrade),
performed a self-calibration, and then verified the unit was in cal with our new calibration verification hardware.
Regards,    Rigol Technologies USA Applications Support Team
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this suggests bad encoders before  (2013)


IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #177 on: May 14, 2014, 09:44:34 pm »
OK, good to know. But annoying to send it to the service. Does anybody know the part no. of these digital potentiometer? I mean, I expect it will happen in the future again and it's not difficult to change these parts. Last year our company sent an old Agilent scope to the service with the same issue and it cost about 500,-€.

Rgds
Gunb

Well, it was under warranty, so I only paid for shipping one-way. He offered to send me the part (or I could also just send him the encoder board already removed), but since I was leaving the country (and couldn't use the DSO), it wasn't worth my time to do the work myself to save € 30. I might be able to get the part number.
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #178 on: May 14, 2014, 09:53:01 pm »
Hi
  Have You used the Key Test , see Pix below.

I had a RMA repair done on my DS2000 and received this note


Good idea. Meanwhile the keytest revealed the encoder to be the root cause for this issue.


Well, it was under warranty, so I only paid for shipping one-way. He offered to send me the part (or I could also just send him the encoder board already removed), but since I was leaving the country (and couldn't use the DSO), it wasn't worth my time to do the work myself to save € 30. I might be able to get the part number.

OK, would be interesting to get aware of the part number. Meanwhile I've searched for a few 12 step rotary encoders with a push button and I only could find a few from ALPS. These ones seem to look as the ones on the Rigol PCB in the videos.

Thanks guys for your excellent hints!

Kind regards
Gunb
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #179 on: May 14, 2014, 11:25:54 pm »
I started having the same problem with the Horizontal scale knob on my DS2000 after about 14 or 15 months of owning it. I sent it back (to the dealer) for knob replacement while I was abroad a month ago. It's fine again.
How often did you use your scope? Two hours a day? Well, many Rigols might have problems with encoders.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #180 on: May 15, 2014, 06:27:29 am »
How often did you use your scope? Two hours a day? Well, many Rigols might have problems with encoders.

I was afraid of your really helpful reply  :palm:

What's more annoying: the encoder issue or useless comments?
Maybe you can post the part number I'm searching for instead of videos anybody knows. That would be helpful.

Amen.

 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #181 on: May 15, 2014, 11:33:31 pm »
Just be aware that Hydrawerk is an Agilent Owner and strives to put down Rigol equipment,
I'm not sure why he nitpicks so much. Just like a chicken pecking the the red spot.

Oh yes, I know. You're right.

Meanwhile contacted Rigol support. Problem is going to be solved. Got a reply 5 minutes after the mail was sent.
That's what I like. Fast & kind, no reason to complain.

Kind regards
Gunb

 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #182 on: May 17, 2014, 04:42:03 pm »
Just be aware that Hydrawerk is an Agilent Owner and strives to put down Rigol equipment,
I'm not sure why he nitpicks so much. Just like a chicken pecking the the red spot.
Well, sorry, I am not gonna say that Agilent is perfect.
I have never seen a problem with rotary encoders on Agilent scopes at my university but some of 10+ years old 54600 series scopes have problems with rubber buttons under the screen. Even the Infinii Vision 6000 series (here MSO6034A) might suffer from this problem.
And I did see many troubles with encoders at many Agilent 33220A function generators. The units did not look very old... That's not good.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/agilent-signal-generators/?action=dlattach;attach=67722;image
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/agilent-signal-generators/msg333060/#msg333060
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #183 on: May 17, 2014, 05:38:28 pm »
How often did you use your scope? Two hours a day? Well, many Rigols might have problems with encoders.

I can't speak to Gunb's usage, but I've used my DS2000 for a massive amount of time - much more than 2 hours a day over many months - because I was writing complex software for it and it had to be up and running during the writing. And the Horizontal scale knob got used most of all - because many of the routines written were related to Delayed Sweep (which required much H. scale adjustment).

And lumping together other products from the same manufacturer that might have similar problems is irrelevant: it's highly unlikely the same encoders are used in the UltraVision line as was used in the older model in your posted video - and everyone knows ANY manufacturer (Agilent, Tek, Rigol, etc) can have hardware problems with one model - and none at all with other models they make.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 05:40:37 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2401
  • Country: 00
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #184 on: May 17, 2014, 06:41:50 pm »
Some of the Rigols encoders are made of metal, I like it. At Agilent all of them are made of plastic. But I could not find any closer info on the manufacturer, or if they are mechanical or optical.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #185 on: May 17, 2014, 08:41:22 pm »
While at the Dayton Hamvention today I took a few minutes to stop by the Rigol booth and talk with the sales engineers.  I mentioned my displease of the 4000 series firmware citing a few of the examples listed here, got the are you on the latest version and we're constantly improving bullshit.

They had some yet to be released SAs on display, but given the recent junk they've been releasing I didn't even bother to look.

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #186 on: May 18, 2014, 07:34:22 am »
Some of the Rigols encoders are made of metal, I like it. At Agilent all of them are made of plastic. But I could not find any closer info on the manufacturer, or if they are mechanical or optical.

The horizontal knob is a metal one. When I will have replaced it with the spare part I will open the broken one to see how it works. Assume it's a mechanical one.


Rgds
Gunb

 

Offline JHERCULEES1

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #187 on: June 06, 2014, 05:40:04 am »
Hi,
Seeing that the "other" Rigol thread is mostly on the DS2000 and now the 1000 series I thought I'd post here instead.
Yesterday I applied MrKrabs edition of the 02.01.00.03 DS4000 firmware and it worked like a charm, all options stayed intact, thanks MrKrabs!

In another thread someone mentioned the decoders not operating on recorded frames, something that sounded a bit strange to me - say it isn't so I said to myself. Unfortunately that does seem to be the case (I only tested the RS232 decoder). I thought perhaps the frames had to be recorded with the decoder active but that doesn't work either - as soon as you press the record button the decoder stops updating. "Browsing" thru the recorded frames doesn't do anything with the decoded data on the screen, it just stays the way it was at the moment you pressed Record. Using the wavefor analysis function in order to "preview" the frames at the bottom of the screen the preview to the left of the current of frame somtimes distors badly and this appears to only happen when the decoder is on the screen.

Since the decoders appears to be software driven I really don't see the reason for them not being able to operate on recorded frames.

Don't know if it can be called a bug as I don't think I've seen it stated anywhere that it should work, still kind of a shame though.



I am trying to apply this mkrabs update to my 4014 but the scope doesnt even seem to acknowledge there is an update on the usb stick with this file , how in the world did you install it on the scope?
 

Offline JHERCULEES1

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #188 on: June 06, 2014, 05:43:16 am »
Hello everyone.

   Thank  to  Cybernet and MrKrabs.

My DS4024 model to full!



any info on how to apply this firmware? i put MRKRABS firmware on the memory stick but the scope does not acknowledge there is an fw upgrade to install how did you accomplish it?
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #189 on: June 06, 2014, 05:59:46 am »
did you rename the file to the correct file name for a ds4000 upgrade?
 

Offline JHERCULEES1

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #190 on: June 06, 2014, 06:58:02 am »
ahh finnally got it! had to rename it like you said , but even then my usb refused to see it , i tried several time to do a bootup load of fw and got it finnally , its working i used the trigger out of the scope which has a fast rise time and looked at it its reading almost 1ns on 50 ohm input setting so nice
attached a screenshot of rise time of trigger out connected to ch 1  at timebase 1ns thanks guys!! this is great
 

Offline JHERCULEES1

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #191 on: June 06, 2014, 07:07:50 am »
also i noticed a bug in this fw , i lost the abilty to set volts/div to 500uv   not a huge deal but still it says parameters overrange and minimum is 1mv/div on my 4014 now
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #192 on: June 06, 2014, 04:40:20 pm »
also i noticed a bug in this fw , i lost the abilty to set volts/div to 500uv   not a huge deal but still it says parameters overrange and minimum is 1mv/div on my 4014 now

Why should there be a bug?  Max. sensitivity of the DS4000 series is 1mV/DIV. It's not a DS2000 with 500µV/DIV.
 

Offline JHERCULEES1

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #193 on: June 07, 2014, 07:44:59 am »
also i noticed a bug in this fw , i lost the abilty to set volts/div to 500uv   not a huge deal but still it says parameters overrange and minimum is 1mv/div on my 4014 now

Why should there be a bug?  Max. sensitivity of the DS4000 series is 1mV/DIV. It's not a DS2000 with 500µV/DIV.

OH sorry i didnt know that i probably should know that ..

im kinda surprised its 3 times the price i thought it did have 500uv , but I guess the Fw is working perfectly then , wonder why rigol took away that feature on a more expensive scope , interesting

 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #194 on: June 07, 2014, 10:49:48 am »
im kinda surprised its 3 times the price i thought it did have 500uv , but I guess the Fw is working perfectly then , wonder why rigol took away that feature on a more expensive scope , interesting

It's not true 500uV/div - it's just 1mV/div mathematically enlarged. So it's not that much of a feature.
 

Offline rf-loop

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3453
  • Country: cn
  • Born with DLL21 in hand
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #195 on: June 07, 2014, 12:17:24 pm »
@Altemir

I have one question about page 1. table and calculations.  I know there may be different opinions about this but I will ask exactly Altamir opinion.

(this table: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=75877;image   )


There is
Samplerate 4G
2ns/div
"sample size" 700  (700 samples = 1 waveform lenght ?)
Blind time 0.981

waveform update rate / s (wfms/s) meaning is afaik qcquired and displayed waveform / s.

But what is blind time (invisible time amount from total time)

4GSa/s  is  8 sample points in one dvision with this 2ns/div.
Rigol display is 14 divs. It means that visible waveform lenght is 112 datapoints.

With this setting you have measured 106790 wfms/s
1 waveform in every ~9360ns
Blind time (for user eye)  is 9248ns and visible time is 112ns.
If total time is 1 then visible time is 0.01197


Question: what you think which one is visible (not blind) time. 112 sampled points time or 700 sampled (but mainly not visible) points time.

Which one is better in practice for user: Real time displayed part from total time or acquired part from total time (if they are not equal)

In this case it is not big deal 112 in 700 but some scopes may have much more. Example oscilloscope where is 20k minimum memory, 1GSa/s sampolerate max and example 2ns/div timescale and if 14 divisions wide it have 28 sample points visible and 19972 sample points invisible (but acquired). How it is wise to calculate blind time. Do it need think visible part or whole captured part.
If I use oscilloscope for some rare glitches I will mostly watch screen or leave it with infinite persistence. (also it do not work mostly for this part what is outside of display memory)

I vote displayed sample size.

Ref: http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1er02/1ER02_1e.pdf

If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
-
Harmony OS
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #196 on: June 07, 2014, 01:58:20 pm »
Question: what you think which one is visible (not blind) time. 112 sampled points time or 700 sampled (but mainly not visible) points time.
His sample sizes in his charts are incorrect at the lower time bases. When the Rigol displays '700*', it means it's sampling <= 700, which means at 2ns/div, it's sampling 112 points.

Quote
I vote displayed sample size.
I would tend to agree with you - except in the case of segments, when you can zoom out to replay the full sample size.

Quote
Ref: http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1er02/1ER02_1e.pdf
Although Rohde-Schwarz calculates blind-time based on the full sample size - Agilent is the company that calculates based on displayed sample size.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 02:00:03 pm by marmad »
 

Offline rf-loop

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3453
  • Country: cn
  • Born with DLL21 in hand
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #197 on: June 07, 2014, 02:34:04 pm »
His sample sizes in his charts are incorrect at the lower time bases. When the Rigol displays '700*', it means it's sampling <= 700, which means at 2ns/div, it's sampling 112 points.

Ok, good.  Without this information I was wondering. 


I would tend to agree with you - except in the case of segments, when you can zoom out to replay the full sample size.

Yes, segmented memory acquired is different case because it is not realtime watching.
It can run zoomed in/out vertically and horizontally (depending scope) and analyze segment by segment or segment groups stepping for more easy finding exeptions.


Although Rohde-Schwarz calculates blind-time based on the full sample size - Agilent is the company that calculates based on displayed sample size.

Yes, this was in my mind. And link to R&S because all know Agilent but R&S is not so widely known all aound of world (pity).
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
-
Harmony OS
 

Offline samertje

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 15
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #198 on: June 27, 2014, 07:06:34 pm »
Hey eveyone,

I'm trying to upgrade my DS4014.
I upgraded the firmware and got 00.02.01.00.03

Ultra sigma doesn't give me a large HEX. I' really lost, I'm jut a noob learning electronics.
Please help

Sam
 

Offline MrKrabs

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 8
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #199 on: June 29, 2014, 11:20:59 pm »
Hey eveyone,

I'm trying to upgrade my DS4014.
I upgraded the firmware and got 00.02.01.00.03

Ultra sigma doesn't give me a large HEX. I' really lost, I'm jut a noob learning electronics.
Please help

Sam

Just install my patched firmware. It's at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/:

http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.MrKrabs.GEL.zip

Here's my original message (buried in that huge thread ;) )

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #200 on: June 30, 2014, 12:38:54 am »
Hey eveyone,

I'm trying to upgrade my DS4014.
I upgraded the firmware and got 00.02.01.00.03

Ultra sigma doesn't give me a large HEX. I' really lost, I'm jut a noob learning electronics.
Please help

Sam

Just install my patched firmware. It's at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/:

http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.MrKrabs.GEL.zip

Here's my original message (buried in that huge thread ;) )

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754

your firmware is awesome Krabs!!!!  been using it for a few months.  hugs and kisses dude!
 

Offline houly

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 15
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #201 on: August 17, 2014, 12:34:27 pm »
Hello all,
I have question about the firmware of MrKrabs.

I would want to buy a MSO4014 and would want to know if the forwmare would be compatible with this scope ...or not ?
and what does it offer exactly ? full bandwidth ? full decoding options ?

What kind of tools I need to upgrade the firmware ?

sorry for newbie question...

I hope you could help me

regards
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #202 on: August 17, 2014, 02:22:40 pm »
Yes it is compatible. If you read the forums the answers to all your questions exist. I don't remember all the details off the top of my head.  Krabs is for bandwidth, keygens are for other features.
 

Offline don

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 95
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #203 on: August 17, 2014, 08:51:02 pm »
Hi,

Does anyone know if ds4000 can decode when in history mode (segmented memory).  I know it was an issue at least a few months ago, not sure if resolved.   Looking for I2C and spi.

Thanks
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #204 on: August 18, 2014, 07:41:06 am »
Hi Don,
As far as I know, no. It still (FW ver 00.02.01) can not decode recorded frames. They fixed that issue on the DS2000 series but not on the DS4000. I've tried, over the last 6 months or so to get a response on whether or not the DS4000 development is "dead" but have been given the silent treatment.

If you're considering getting a DS4000 series scope and you really do "need" the decoders then ask the right questions before buying - then they might give you an answer.

They're charging serious money for the option and they just don't work the way you expect them too. With that said I haven't found it actually written anywhere that it should work on recorded frames....

I'm currently running Mr.Krabs special version 00.02.01.00.03
 

Offline don

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 95
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #205 on: August 18, 2014, 11:47:34 am »
Thanks for info, I'll send Rigol an email and see what they say.  Rigol's websites for DS4000 has an app note called "Advantage of Record Function" which does say record + decode is a special feature of DS2000 and DS4000.  But scope is a couple years old now?  You'd think it would be working by now.
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #206 on: August 18, 2014, 12:36:46 pm »
Ha, yeah, there it actually does say it's supposed to work:
Quote
When the memory is filled up or the acquisition is stopped it is possible to change to the Playback or the Analysis Mode. Within this you can scroll to all messages frame by frame and see the decoded data.

But, in my experience, it simply does not work. Yes, you can scroll thru the messages frame by frame but the decoded data isn't updated. You probably won't notice it if all the frames captured contains the same data (not a good test), but if the actual content of the captured frames changes you'll see that the waveform is updated but the decoded data is not.

I've said id before and I'll say it again. I'm old enough by now to realise that I might be doing it wrong. In this case though, no one has been able to show where I've went wrong and others have been able to recreate the issue. You can read about my test starting at this post and then continuing for a couple of posts.

If you do get a response from Rigol, please keep us updated!
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #207 on: August 22, 2014, 05:07:25 pm »
FYI: I've finally (!) been able to get a response from Rigol regarding the decoding of recorded frames on the DS4k. They have confirmed that it is a bug (no surprise) and they are saying that it will be fixed in the next revision of the firmware. I wasn't told when in time that firmware is about to be released and/or what else they might have done to it.
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #208 on: August 22, 2014, 05:21:17 pm »
FYI: I've finally (!) been able to get a response from Rigol regarding the decoding of recorded frames on the DS4k. They have confirmed that it is a bug (no surprise) and they are saying that it will be fixed in the next revision of the firmware. I wasn't told when in time that firmware is about to be released and/or what else they might have done to it.

Good to know, thanks for sharing.  They must be completely consumed with circumventing hackers rather than fixing bugs these days... Just kidding :)
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #209 on: August 22, 2014, 05:44:51 pm »
Possibly, but lets hope not :)
One can't help thinking about how many actual decoder licenses for the DS4k have been sold? I mean, list price for a DS4014 is ~$2700 (Batronix), $600 on top of that (+22%) for the RS232 decoding alone ($1700 for the combo, and that doesn't include FlexRay which is another $1400) and then performing the way they are is ridiculous IMO.

I mean, *I* don't really have the right to complain since I didn't actually buy any decoder licenses but since my scope came WITHOUT the time limited trial licenses installed (yep, that's true) I had to enable them just to see what it was  8). And let me tell you that had I actually payed that kind of money I'd be calling and emailing my supplier each and every day untill they got me a fix or gave me my money back.

I would suspect any customer actualy paying that kind of money would too but the fact that the scope is ~3 years old (heck, I've had mine for over two) and these bugs are STILL there tells me no-one is actually paying for it.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 05:46:25 pm by H.O »
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #210 on: August 22, 2014, 05:49:25 pm »
Possibly, but lets hope not :)
One can't help thinking about how many actual decoder licenses for the DS4k have been sold? I mean, list price for a DS4014 is ~$2700 (Batronix), $600 on top of that (+22%) for the RS232 decoding alone ($1700 for the combo, and that doesn't include FlexRay which is another $1400) and then performing the way they are is ridiculous IMO.

I mean, *I* don't really have the right to complain since I didn't actually buy any decoder licenses but since my scope came WITHOUT the time limited trial licenses installed (yep, that's true) I had to enable them just to see what it was  8). And let me tell you that had I actually payed that kind of money I'd be calling and emailing my supplier each and every day untill they got me a fix or gave me my money back.

I would suspect any customer actualy paying that kind of money would too but the fact that the scope is ~3 years old (heck, I've had mine for over two) and these bugs are STILL there tells me no-one is actually paying for it.

I am in 100% agreement.  Price point on those decoders is HIGH and they sure as heck better work right in all normal situations if I pay money for them.  Agilent got VERY competitive on the addon prices for their newer scopes.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 06:37:36 pm by Gallymimus »
 

Offline seronday

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Country: au
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #211 on: October 03, 2014, 12:58:40 pm »
DS4000 series Bandwidth (model type) Option Codes.

I have posted some information on the option codes for setting the DS4000 series bandwidth here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/3600/
 

Offline veryevil

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 204
  • Country: gb
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #212 on: October 05, 2014, 05:19:45 pm »
We have been told that a fix will be in the next firmware and it is due at the end of October. Told them if its not then we will be sending it back
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #213 on: October 05, 2014, 05:46:07 pm »
seronday,
Thank you very much for that! Excellent!

veryevil,
Thank you for the update, I was going to email my contact asking for a progress report but I'll sit tight then. Hopefully we'll see something in about a month then. If you hear anything else, please keep us in the loop, thank you!
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #214 on: October 06, 2014, 01:04:43 am »
I'm going to give a ds4014 a try.  Is there a calibration board for less in the US from anywhere?  The price at batronix plus dhl shipping adds that up a bit.  I may even lay out a small pcb to order through itead.  If I give that a try, I'd probably start with the source signal in the center and have it come out in 5 even directions...

Ok, how about this, I put this together so far.  Fits inside of 5cm x 5cm for itead <9.90.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 03:17:55 am by alank2 »
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #215 on: October 06, 2014, 05:10:50 am »
I'm going to give a ds4014 a try.  Is there a calibration board for less in the US from anywhere?  The price at batronix plus dhl shipping adds that up a bit.  I may even lay out a small pcb to order through itead.  If I give that a try, I'd probably start with the source signal in the center and have it come out in 5 even directions...

Ok, how about this, I put this together so far.  Fits inside of 5cm x 5cm for itead <9.90.


did ya balance yer impedances to 50 ohms?  I'm not sure this is any better than a bunch of BNC cables and tees.

wonder what the batronix board looks like and if it's carefully laid out or not.

itead rules by the way... but they have slowed down a LOT since updating their gerber upload process to an automated system instead of email.
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #216 on: October 06, 2014, 12:07:20 pm »
did ya balance yer impedances to 50 ohms?  I'm not sure this is any better than a bunch of BNC cables and tees.

I wondered about this last night after throwing it together.  I made the track lengths the same for all 5.  Track widths are 20mil.  Is there something I need to do to balance them?  If so, what?

Edit, after looking at a couple of impedance trace calculators, if I use a 1.2mm pcb, 35um copper, substrate dielectric of 4.35, one calculator gives 87.2 mils wide track and the other gives 92 mils, so I guess I should use a 90 mil track.  The one at batronix looks like it uses some pretty wide track and perhaps this is why.

EDIT 2 - I only have 4 places (between the ground spokes) I can put the 90 mil wide trace from the center connector.  Can I put a ring around it, connect 4 traces from the source connector, and then 5 even traces from the ring to the router ones?  Any downside to doing that?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 12:48:52 pm by alank2 »
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #217 on: October 06, 2014, 01:27:23 pm »
did ya balance yer impedances to 50 ohms?  I'm not sure this is any better than a bunch of BNC cables and tees.

I wondered about this last night after throwing it together.  I made the track lengths the same for all 5.  Track widths are 20mil.  Is there something I need to do to balance them?  If so, what?

Edit, after looking at a couple of impedance trace calculators, if I use a 1.2mm pcb, 35um copper, substrate dielectric of 4.35, one calculator gives 87.2 mils wide track and the other gives 92 mils, so I guess I should use a 90 mil track.  The one at batronix looks like it uses some pretty wide track and perhaps this is why.

EDIT 2 - I only have 4 places (between the ground spokes) I can put the 90 mil wide trace from the center connector.  Can I put a ring around it, connect 4 traces from the source connector, and then 5 even traces from the ring to the router ones?  Any downside to doing that?

I unfortunately am not an RF guy, just enough to be dangerous, BUT, you can adjust your board thickness to change your trace width (for 50 ohms).  I don't know if you used a ground plane or not, but you should be I believe.  If you go thinner board, that calculated trace width should reduce.

I don't think trace length matters, I don't think that the scope uses any time of flight for it's calculations.  Again I could be wrong, but I think it's mostly amplitude and offset calibration.  If ya have a good pic of the Batronix one it might be instructive for identifying important features.
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #218 on: October 06, 2014, 01:34:50 pm »
I'm not an RF guy either.

I thinned the pcb to 1.2mm and that lowered the trace width a bit to 90mils.  I've got a ground pour for ground on bottom/top although it is pretty cut up on the top.

Any problem with the ring method I did here, how about this:

 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #219 on: October 06, 2014, 01:42:46 pm »
looking at the Batronix board they are definitely doing line length compensation, and using thick traces.

I'm not positive whether the ring idea is a good or bad idea :)

The reality is that if you aren't doing this quite right, you will probably never know the difference on the scope.
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #220 on: October 06, 2014, 05:25:22 pm »
Does anyone who does know RF have a comment on the ring technique I am using to bring the center/source BNC jack to the outer 5?
 

Offline TooOldForThis

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 55
  • Country: us
  • H: 42.576MHz/Tesla
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #221 on: October 07, 2014, 01:17:33 am »
You were probably better off with the first pattern - fewer paths to echo around while on the circuit board.  I assume the point of the calibration is to drive an edge out of the rear trigger out port and measure the difference in time between when that edge first arrives at the 5 front panel inputs. (and then ignore the many, many trailing echos.)  Unless you spend a mint on 5 phase-matched cables for the front connections, the cable variances will be the biggest error source.  Without knowing the specifics of the calibration, its hard to say how fussy the cable assembly needs to be.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 01:20:33 am by TooOldForThis »
 

Offline Co6aka

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #222 on: October 08, 2014, 01:09:24 am »
...have it come out in 5 even directions...

"Even" doesn't matter if your cables are of different lengths.

Cut five identical RG-174-size teflon coax cables (with one BNC-male already on each) then combine them all into a single BNC-male: Parallel the cut ends, solder the braids together, solder the centers together and then solder to the sixth BNC-male pin.

Too beat to do a DaveCAD image tonight.  :=\
Co6aka says, "BARK! and you have no idea how humans will respond."
 

Offline Howardlong

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5014
  • Country: gb
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #223 on: October 08, 2014, 07:09:58 am »
I'm an RF guy, and the Rigol Calibration kit board looks like it has fifty ohm microstrip.

I don't know how the cal board is used, but I assume that all channels are set to 50 ohms to use it.

However, the combined impedance will be 10 ohms (five 50 ohms in parallel: see, RF ain't all black magic!) which won't match the central feed which I assume will go off to a signal generator presumeably with a 50 ohm characteristic impedance. Whether this is a problem or not I don't know, but it seems strange to go to the effort of making 50 ohm microstrip and then mismatching the feed point so grossly. But depending on the use case, if all channels are equally badly treated perhaps it doesn't matter.

It is possible there's some impedance matching such as a wideband transformer on the board to deal with the mismatch, but I couldn't see any evidence of this. You could use a minimum loss pad to provide a broadband match too (basically a pi or T made out of resistors, they're inherently broadband, but more lossy than a transformer).

A couple of other comments. Firstly, depending on use case, it may be necessary to terminate any unused channels with fifty ohm terminators or you'll get erroneous results. Secondly, the closeness of those BNCs on your board might make for a bit of fun when trying to fit the cables, you might want to do a fit check first, I did a similar thing with SMA connectors on a board a few years ago, you don't make that mistake twice!
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #224 on: October 08, 2014, 12:22:21 pm »
I don't know how the cal board is used, but I assume that all channels are set to 50 ohms to use it.

It is unclear from the calibration document/instructions, but I wonder if the "50" led will light up during calibration.

Firstly, depending on use case, it may be necessary to terminate any unused channels with fifty ohm terminators or you'll get erroneous results.

I think in one of their calibration or performance tests it mentions connecting the 4 channels, but leaving the 5th one disconnected (the one that is usually connected to the external trigger).

Perhaps they designed for the impedance difference in the calibration itself, or it just isn't important for what they are trying to calibrate.

I made up an easy "joiner" pcb last night that eliminates the connectors and goes right to soldering RG58 to a pcb:

 

Offline iDevice

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Country: be
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #225 on: October 08, 2014, 10:10:58 pm »
All BNCs have to be connected otherwise the calibration won't start, if I remember.
I only do it about one or twice a year when DC offsets begin to bother me, so I forgot, but I think I tested first with 3 tees and four cables and it didn't work as there was a detection of signal presence on the ext sync input.
But I'm not sure as since then I use the original test jig.
The calibration process is using the fast edge output.
The calibration fixture is nothing fancy, just a PCB with soldered chassis female BNCs, the only special care is about track length matching.
So you can achieve the same thing with four tees and adjusted 5th cable length to compensate for the branch from the 2nd output from the first tee but it's cheaper to buy the Rigol thing than trying to make it yourself anyway, so why bother...
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #226 on: October 08, 2014, 11:57:58 pm »
I'm an RF guy, and the Rigol Calibration kit board looks like it has fifty ohm microstrip.

I don't know how the cal board is used, but I assume that all channels are set to 50 ohms to use it.

However, the combined impedance will be 10 ohms (five 50 ohms in parallel: see, RF ain't all black magic!) which won't match the central feed which I assume will go off to a signal generator presumeably with a 50 ohm characteristic impedance. Whether this is a problem or not I don't know, but it seems strange to go to the effort of making 50 ohm microstrip and then mismatching the feed point so grossly. But depending on the use case, if all channels are equally badly treated perhaps it doesn't matter.

It is possible there's some impedance matching such as a wideband transformer on the board to deal with the mismatch, but I couldn't see any evidence of this. You could use a minimum loss pad to provide a broadband match too (basically a pi or T made out of resistors, they're inherently broadband, but more lossy than a transformer).

A couple of other comments. Firstly, depending on use case, it may be necessary to terminate any unused channels with fifty ohm terminators or you'll get erroneous results. Secondly, the closeness of those BNCs on your board might make for a bit of fun when trying to fit the cables, you might want to do a fit check first, I did a similar thing with SMA connectors on a board a few years ago, you don't make that mistake twice!

to give a little more background, this is for self calibration so it connects to the calibration port on the scope itself.  Also the calibration won't work if you don't have all channels hooked up.  I believe it is designed to be usable with BNC tees and a bunch of cables so somehow the impedance match is cared for or not needed.

Like I mentioned before. I suspect that this is all offset and gain calibration and likely low bandwidth.  I suppose someone could add another tee and measure what is being send out of the calibration port to confirm.
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #227 on: October 12, 2014, 01:49:19 am »
Rigol's firmware page is now showing FW 2.02 for the 4000.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm

Funny that I would just happen on a newer revision, after hounding their support for bug fixes with no response.    :palm:

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #228 on: October 13, 2014, 03:22:35 am »
BAH!

I requested the update and they send me 02.01!!!!  WTF
 

Offline salvix

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #229 on: October 13, 2014, 03:56:31 am »
The email said 02.01, but if you look at the first few bytes of the file, you'll see it's actually 00.02.02.01.01.

00.02.02.01.01 has 9570200 bytes

00.02.01.00.03 has 9091982 bytes

sha1sum:

ab2b226cf3b5fbd42cd72054e6ba773d35973512  DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.GEL
5a76dc73098e1a2ddb4492d17f8a26397b09e1dd  DS4000Update.00.02.02.01.01.GEL
 

Offline electronic_eel

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 197
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #230 on: October 13, 2014, 06:25:02 am »
Is the decoding in segmented memory bug fixed with 2.02?

Does 2.02 still accept Riglol codes or did they add a protection against that? Like the first step they did on the DSA815, the bootloader being the second.
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #231 on: October 13, 2014, 08:08:47 am »
You'd probably have to check the change log!

Now if only we could find one of those...

Hope they fixed the hacking issue. Stealing is wrong!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 08:20:52 am by Gallymimus »
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #232 on: October 13, 2014, 08:19:18 am »
The email said 02.01, but if you look at the first few bytes of the file, you'll see it's actually 00.02.02.01.01.

00.02.02.01.01 has 9570200 bytes

00.02.01.00.03 has 9091982 bytes

sha1sum:

ab2b226cf3b5fbd42cd72054e6ba773d35973512  DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.GEL
5a76dc73098e1a2ddb4492d17f8a26397b09e1dd  DS4000Update.00.02.02.01.01.GEL

Well thanks for checking that. It would not have occurred to me to see if they actually sent a newer version than what they stated.

Can't wait for someone to check this against known bugs!


EDIT:
Confirmed that installed firmware is 02.02.SP1.

Also, licenses stick, 500MHz option disappears from options screen but also persisted (model still says 4054 in system info).

now we just need to figure out what might be fixed!

EDIT:

the 500MHz does in fact stay functional.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 12:55:48 am by Gallymimus »
 

Offline salvix

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #233 on: October 13, 2014, 05:16:26 pm »
Interesting. Could you try downgrading to the previous firmware to see if it's still possible?
 

Offline Gallymimus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #234 on: October 13, 2014, 05:17:22 pm »
Sure, why not, not like I have any real work to do right?

:)

EDIT:

downgrade works fine if done from the pre-boot bootloader (turn on and mash help button).  It does not allow downgrade from within the scope firmware.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 05:35:04 pm by Gallymimus »
 

Offline jboard146

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 36
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #235 on: October 13, 2014, 06:46:31 pm »
Could someone post the DS4000Update.00.02.02.01.01.GEL (The supposed fixed) file to dropbox or somehting?

I'll give it a try and see if it fixes the decoding. I really want the decoding to work.
 

Offline salvix

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #236 on: October 13, 2014, 07:52:56 pm »
There you go: http://wikisend.com/download/445784/DS4000Update.00.02.02.01.01.GEL

After you download it, make sure the sha1sum is 5a76dc73098e1a2ddb4492d17f8a26397b09e1dd.

And thanks Gallymimus for checking the downgrade works! (wait, you use your scope for *work*? geez!  ;D )
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #237 on: October 14, 2014, 08:44:14 pm »
Hi,
I just tested the new 02.02.01.01 firmware and I'm pleased to see the main issues I've had with the protocol decoders are, as far as I can see during this fairly short test, fixed.

* If you record a bunch of frames/waveforms you can now use the decoder on the recorded frames while playing them back - at last, thank you Rigol!

* There's no distorted "preview" of the waveform when in analyze mode.

* If you enable the waveform record feature while a decoder is already turned on the scope will now hide/blank the decoded data on the screen while recording is active. This is (a lot) better than before where the decoder simply locked up displaying the last decoded. I would obviously prefer to have it show on the screen while recording as well but it's my understanding that it's compromise due to processing power. It would then be nice with an option where you could opt to have it on screen with the drawback of reduced waveform record rate. After all, there are a lot of scenarios where there's plenty of time between frames anyway. Oh well....

* Unfortunately it (the decoder) still locks up as soon as you bring out the Record mode menu on the screen. The waveform updates but the decoded data does not. Once you select an item in the menu the decoder either comes back to Life (ie you select OFF) or it hides/blanks.

* There seems to something strange going on when trying to use the Open record mode with a decoder turned on. I can't seem to make it operate properly. If I turn off the decoder then Open mode seems to work properly (and the decoder can be re-enabled again when playing back the frames/waveforms).
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 08:46:36 pm by H.O »
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #238 on: October 15, 2014, 03:12:35 pm »
Is it just me or does the multi-function knob responsiveness also seem better with 2.0.2?  I had gotten to the point that most of the time I simply used the menu button presses to scroll down, so I wasn't using the knob as much, but seems better.

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 681
  • Country: se
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #239 on: October 15, 2014, 05:12:30 pm »
You know, I actually kind of felt that too but then decided it was probably just wishfull thinking and imagination. Perhaps not after all....
Have you found anything else fixed or added? You didn't happen to get the release notes did you? (I didn't, just got the .gel file).
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #240 on: October 15, 2014, 05:19:15 pm »
No release notes, I was told it's still in the works, but is coming.

I've not noticed anything else fixed, but been busy with other stuff and only played a bit so far.

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #241 on: October 16, 2014, 12:52:30 am »
Hi,

Can someone explain to me the reason fro the vertical stringing when I view this in dots mode.  The intensity grading seems to be a part of this, obviously stopping the waveform and viewing it shows the sample dots perfect.  It also looks good running when using vectors too.

Is it noise in the triggering from the signal I'm looking at?



Thanks,

Alan
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 02:05:18 am by alank2 »
 

Offline TooOldForThis

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 55
  • Country: us
  • H: 42.576MHz/Tesla
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #242 on: October 16, 2014, 01:56:58 am »
I can confirm your results.    I get the same artifacts at high sweep rates when in dots mode. (This is with SW rev 02.02.SP1)
I get slightly different results each time I stop the acquisition.  I find the 2nd screen shot interesting.  It appears that some percentage of the time the sample data is is displayed with a phase delay.  I don't see this effect at slower sweep rates.   Everything is fine in vector mode at any speed.

 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #243 on: October 17, 2014, 02:50:38 pm »
Does anyone notice some waviness with the VGA output on their DS4K?  At first glance you don't see it, but there is a repeating pattern in the signal that is visible if you look.  I tired a couple displays and a couple of cables and got the same thing.
 

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #244 on: October 17, 2014, 06:14:07 pm »
alank2:
Yes, I have the same noise pattern on the VGA out of my scope as well.  I imagine there must be some crosstalk into the analog portion of the video out.  I guess they didn't have the budget to go ultra high performance on the video processing.
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #245 on: October 17, 2014, 06:27:29 pm »
Thanks commongrounder, I just wanted to make sure it was normal.  Not a huge deal, just a little annoying.  It looks really funny to see it on a large display.
 

Offline electronic_eel

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 197
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #246 on: November 02, 2014, 09:28:01 pm »
I have 00.02.02 installed on an MSO4000 and I'm getting strange results with a measure on the math channel. The measurement is a simple power measurement multiplying voltage and amps of a 40 W bulb on an 100 R shunt. The math curve looks nice as it should be.

But I don't understand what is going on with the average measurement - it is showing a negative value.

I have also included a screenshot with all measurements on the math channel on. Although the math curve is always above the zero-mark, the measure function thinks it swings from -43 W to +31W. To me these measure results look totally bogus.

It seems like it depends on the scale of the math trace: when I use a lower load so that I can use the 500U scaling on the math trace everything is ok. Once I change the scale to 1KU the measure results go negative.

Could anybody try to reproduce this?
 

Offline electronic_eel

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 197
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #247 on: November 02, 2014, 10:30:46 pm »
I've done some more investigation:

It seems like only the measure function is affected, the regular cursors show sane values.

I have restricted the measurement area from full screen to measurement cursors and inspected parts of the math waveform. See attached screenshots. The measurement function seems to think the whole math waveform is negative.

And once I switch the math scale down to 500U everything is fine again. Maybe some kind of overflow?

If someone wonders: I turned down the voltage a bit for these measurements, my 100 Ohms shunt was getting a little warm.
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #248 on: November 05, 2014, 08:44:53 pm »
Hi,

Well, my calibration pcb came in from itead finally.  I do know that you could kludge the cables together without it, but it made the job easier.




Before calibration:



After calibration:



I actually ran the self cal twice to see if I could get the CH1 to move up like the others, but it ended up the same both times.

If anyone wants one of these pcb's, I've got 8 extras.  I'll drop one in an envelope in the US and pay for a stamp.  You just need to buy 3 BNC cables from Jameco and you can easily build a 5-in-1 calibration fixture.

111473   CABLE ASSEMBLY,RG174/U,3 FOOT ,BNC TO BNC,50 OHM   5.49

I skipped the 33 ohm resistors the RF guys recommended because the actual Rigol fixture does not have any resistors in it...

Thanks,

Alan
 

Offline Omikron

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 26
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #249 on: April 08, 2015, 02:49:56 am »
Hey All!

In case anyone is curious, after several weeks of calls and badgering a number of people, TEquipment has finally listed the calibration kit on their website: http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/Calibration-Kit/General-Accessories/

Yay!
 

Offline hendorog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1561
  • Country: nz
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #250 on: April 14, 2015, 09:51:14 am »
I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but there is new (to me at least) firmware out for the DS/MSO4000: 00.02.02.03.05

It displays as 00.02.02.SP3 in System Info


Cheers,
Roger
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 06:56:21 am by hendorog »
 

Offline Break42

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 4
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #251 on: April 15, 2015, 10:08:06 am »
Hi hendorog,
do you know the changes in the newest 00.02.02.03.05 version? Are there release notes included?
Could you please add here the firmware  changes / bug fixies / improvements?
 

Offline hendorog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1561
  • Country: nz
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #252 on: April 15, 2015, 11:20:28 am »
Hi,
Nothing was included apart from the binary itself, but I have asked for them.

I noticed a couple of things which I hadn't seen before (quite possible that they were already there and I missed them)
* Digital filter option in the Math menu
* 1553B decoding option
* 1553B trigger option

Also I did a test with a signal gen - note its not super clean so harmonics might be a factor - but I was able to display a trace up to 1160 MHz - and the frequency counter worked...  :wtf: Seems pretty amazing! This is a DS4014/500



« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 11:26:53 am by hendorog »
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #253 on: April 15, 2015, 12:12:18 pm »
Where did you see this 1553b decoding option?  Do you have a screen shot of it?
 

Offline hendorog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1561
  • Country: nz
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #254 on: April 15, 2015, 12:23:11 pm »
I've added them to the above post.

Cheers.
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #255 on: April 15, 2015, 03:07:12 pm »
I've added them to the above post.

Cheers.

Could you please attach the firmware release, too?


Rgds
Gunb
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #256 on: April 15, 2015, 03:15:29 pm »
Could you please add here the firmware  changes / bug fixies / improvements?

Hi,
Nothing was included apart from the binary itself, but I have asked for them.

Offline hendorog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1561
  • Country: nz
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #257 on: April 15, 2015, 07:13:48 pm »

I just completed the form requesting the firmware and got it back within a couple of hours.

But here's a link to dropbox
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jur2qdshdw4dsyz/DS4000Update.00.02.02.03.05.GEL?dl=0

« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 07:05:55 am by hendorog »
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
 

Offline Omikron

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 26
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #259 on: April 29, 2015, 06:42:15 pm »
Hey All!

As I previously posted, even though I had experimented with alank2's cal PCB already, I pressed TEquipment into carrying the official Rigol kit finally and after many weeks of waiting, it finally arrived.  Why it arrived in such an ABSURDLY large box, is beyond me.  In fact, as the photos will show, nearly every bit of packaging involved in shipping this thing is more ridiculous than the last.

Screwball packaging aside, it seems to be very well built for being what it is.  PCB appears to have a large ground plane on one side with all of the signal traces on the back.  Cables appear to be of good quality as well.  Some of the soldering on the BNC connectors on the board were...less than ideal.  Some of the connections seemed to have too much solder on them, and I spotted one or two cold joints, along with some flux residue left on the board around the connectors.

All in all, I figure if you have the cash to buy the scope, the $40 for the official cal kit is worth it, although it begs the question why they can't just include it with the higher end scopes.

 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #260 on: April 29, 2015, 06:52:11 pm »
Hi,

Have you tried it yet?  Let me know if it works better than my pcb.  $40 isn't a bad deal for it.  When I called Rigol they wanted $120 or something!

BTW, all of you 4K users, if anyone wants a spare set of probes, I usually use my own probes, so I have 4 brand new RP3500A's.  They normally retail for $220 each, but I'll sell them for $130 each.

Thanks,

Alan
 

Offline Omikron

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 26
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #261 on: April 29, 2015, 06:55:20 pm »
Hi,

Have you tried it yet?  Let me know if it works better than my pcb.  $40 isn't a bad deal for it.  When I called Rigol they wanted $120 or something!

BTW, all of you 4K users, if anyone wants a spare set of probes, I usually use my own probes, so I have 4 brand new RP3500A's.  They normally retail for $220 each, but I'll sell them for $130 each.

Thanks,

Alan

Hey Alan! Waiting for the scope to warm up to try it now. :-)
 

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 318
  • Country: us
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #262 on: April 29, 2015, 08:34:18 pm »
The Rigol calibration cable/board kit looks interesting.  I wonder how it might be used on a two channel DS4000 series scope.  Would the two unused open connectors cause reflections that might screw up the scope's cal routine?  I assume you can't just terminate the unused jacks with 50 ohms, since we don't know exactly what the scope is doing (do we?) with input termination during the routine.  I've been using BNC tees with decent 50 ohm cables to do mine so far.  Maybe that is good enough.

The extreme over-packaging is amazing.  It's clear that the Rigol box was some sort of generic packaging, and TEquipment had no idea how it was packed and erred on the careful side.  At least most of it is recycle-able or reuse-able.   My worst case was when I received a backordered 1/2 watt resistor in five layers of packaging. The outermost box was 12 x 12 x 12 inches  :palm:
 

Offline Omikron

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 26
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #263 on: April 29, 2015, 11:02:23 pm »
Hi,

Have you tried it yet?  Let me know if it works better than my pcb.  $40 isn't a bad deal for it.  When I called Rigol they wanted $120 or something!

BTW, all of you 4K users, if anyone wants a spare set of probes, I usually use my own probes, so I have 4 brand new RP3500A's.  They normally retail for $220 each, but I'll sell them for $130 each.

Thanks,

Alan

Hey Alan! Waiting for the scope to warm up to try it now. :-)

The verdict is in! No observable difference, although I have to admit that I did have some difficulty with the PCB and ended up just building a cable that looks identical to the one pictured in the Rigol calibration guide. :-)
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #264 on: April 29, 2015, 11:31:56 pm »
For $40 I would have just ordered their fixture, that isn't too bad a price, but like you I agree they should provide it with the scope.
 

Offline hendorog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1561
  • Country: nz
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #265 on: May 20, 2015, 10:52:52 pm »
do you know the changes in the newest 00.02.02.03.05 version? Are there release notes included?
Could you please add here the firmware  changes / bug fixies / improvements?

Rigol just sent release notes - see attached

Cheers,
Roger
 

Offline Trev4G

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 7
  • Country: gb
Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #266 on: May 25, 2015, 10:16:01 am »
As current probes are very expensive for the amount of use I would put one to I have built my own. This presents two problems:
1) How do I power the probe?
2) How do I tell the scope about the probe (other than manually configure)?

The 7 contact probe pinboards under the BNC's on my MSO4014 look like they may contain the answer to both these problems. Is there a spec for these connections ? Has anybody tried using them?

At present there appears to be a +/- 5V supply but I don't know the current rating. The centre pin is used by the RP3500A probes to signal that is a x10. That looks a fairly simple signal so I could probably work it out. As for the rest I have no idea.

Can't help feeling someone m