Author Topic: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...  (Read 143465 times)

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Offline Gallymimus

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #200 on: June 30, 2014, 12:38:54 am »
Hey eveyone,

I'm trying to upgrade my DS4014.
I upgraded the firmware and got 00.02.01.00.03

Ultra sigma doesn't give me a large HEX. I' really lost, I'm jut a noob learning electronics.
Please help

Sam

Just install my patched firmware. It's at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/:

http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.MrKrabs.GEL.zip

Here's my original message (buried in that huge thread ;) )

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754

your firmware is awesome Krabs!!!!  been using it for a few months.  hugs and kisses dude!
 

Offline houly

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #201 on: August 17, 2014, 12:34:27 pm »
Hello all,
I have question about the firmware of MrKrabs.

I would want to buy a MSO4014 and would want to know if the forwmare would be compatible with this scope ...or not ?
and what does it offer exactly ? full bandwidth ? full decoding options ?

What kind of tools I need to upgrade the firmware ?

sorry for newbie question...

I hope you could help me

regards
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #202 on: August 17, 2014, 02:22:40 pm »
Yes it is compatible. If you read the forums the answers to all your questions exist. I don't remember all the details off the top of my head.  Krabs is for bandwidth, keygens are for other features.
 

Offline don

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #203 on: August 17, 2014, 08:51:02 pm »
Hi,

Does anyone know if ds4000 can decode when in history mode (segmented memory).  I know it was an issue at least a few months ago, not sure if resolved.   Looking for I2C and spi.

Thanks
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #204 on: August 18, 2014, 07:41:06 am »
Hi Don,
As far as I know, no. It still (FW ver 00.02.01) can not decode recorded frames. They fixed that issue on the DS2000 series but not on the DS4000. I've tried, over the last 6 months or so to get a response on whether or not the DS4000 development is "dead" but have been given the silent treatment.

If you're considering getting a DS4000 series scope and you really do "need" the decoders then ask the right questions before buying - then they might give you an answer.

They're charging serious money for the option and they just don't work the way you expect them too. With that said I haven't found it actually written anywhere that it should work on recorded frames....

I'm currently running Mr.Krabs special version 00.02.01.00.03
 

Offline don

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #205 on: August 18, 2014, 11:47:34 am »
Thanks for info, I'll send Rigol an email and see what they say.  Rigol's websites for DS4000 has an app note called "Advantage of Record Function" which does say record + decode is a special feature of DS2000 and DS4000.  But scope is a couple years old now?  You'd think it would be working by now.
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #206 on: August 18, 2014, 12:36:46 pm »
Ha, yeah, there it actually does say it's supposed to work:
Quote
When the memory is filled up or the acquisition is stopped it is possible to change to the Playback or the Analysis Mode. Within this you can scroll to all messages frame by frame and see the decoded data.

But, in my experience, it simply does not work. Yes, you can scroll thru the messages frame by frame but the decoded data isn't updated. You probably won't notice it if all the frames captured contains the same data (not a good test), but if the actual content of the captured frames changes you'll see that the waveform is updated but the decoded data is not.

I've said id before and I'll say it again. I'm old enough by now to realise that I might be doing it wrong. In this case though, no one has been able to show where I've went wrong and others have been able to recreate the issue. You can read about my test starting at this post and then continuing for a couple of posts.

If you do get a response from Rigol, please keep us updated!
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #207 on: August 22, 2014, 05:07:25 pm »
FYI: I've finally (!) been able to get a response from Rigol regarding the decoding of recorded frames on the DS4k. They have confirmed that it is a bug (no surprise) and they are saying that it will be fixed in the next revision of the firmware. I wasn't told when in time that firmware is about to be released and/or what else they might have done to it.
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #208 on: August 22, 2014, 05:21:17 pm »
FYI: I've finally (!) been able to get a response from Rigol regarding the decoding of recorded frames on the DS4k. They have confirmed that it is a bug (no surprise) and they are saying that it will be fixed in the next revision of the firmware. I wasn't told when in time that firmware is about to be released and/or what else they might have done to it.

Good to know, thanks for sharing.  They must be completely consumed with circumventing hackers rather than fixing bugs these days... Just kidding :)
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #209 on: August 22, 2014, 05:44:51 pm »
Possibly, but lets hope not :)
One can't help thinking about how many actual decoder licenses for the DS4k have been sold? I mean, list price for a DS4014 is ~$2700 (Batronix), $600 on top of that (+22%) for the RS232 decoding alone ($1700 for the combo, and that doesn't include FlexRay which is another $1400) and then performing the way they are is ridiculous IMO.

I mean, *I* don't really have the right to complain since I didn't actually buy any decoder licenses but since my scope came WITHOUT the time limited trial licenses installed (yep, that's true) I had to enable them just to see what it was  8). And let me tell you that had I actually payed that kind of money I'd be calling and emailing my supplier each and every day untill they got me a fix or gave me my money back.

I would suspect any customer actualy paying that kind of money would too but the fact that the scope is ~3 years old (heck, I've had mine for over two) and these bugs are STILL there tells me no-one is actually paying for it.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 05:46:25 pm by H.O »
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #210 on: August 22, 2014, 05:49:25 pm »
Possibly, but lets hope not :)
One can't help thinking about how many actual decoder licenses for the DS4k have been sold? I mean, list price for a DS4014 is ~$2700 (Batronix), $600 on top of that (+22%) for the RS232 decoding alone ($1700 for the combo, and that doesn't include FlexRay which is another $1400) and then performing the way they are is ridiculous IMO.

I mean, *I* don't really have the right to complain since I didn't actually buy any decoder licenses but since my scope came WITHOUT the time limited trial licenses installed (yep, that's true) I had to enable them just to see what it was  8). And let me tell you that had I actually payed that kind of money I'd be calling and emailing my supplier each and every day untill they got me a fix or gave me my money back.

I would suspect any customer actualy paying that kind of money would too but the fact that the scope is ~3 years old (heck, I've had mine for over two) and these bugs are STILL there tells me no-one is actually paying for it.

I am in 100% agreement.  Price point on those decoders is HIGH and they sure as heck better work right in all normal situations if I pay money for them.  Agilent got VERY competitive on the addon prices for their newer scopes.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 06:37:36 pm by Gallymimus »
 

Offline seronday

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #211 on: October 03, 2014, 12:58:40 pm »
DS4000 series Bandwidth (model type) Option Codes.

I have posted some information on the option codes for setting the DS4000 series bandwidth here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/3600/
 

Offline veryevil

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #212 on: October 05, 2014, 05:19:45 pm »
We have been told that a fix will be in the next firmware and it is due at the end of October. Told them if its not then we will be sending it back
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #213 on: October 05, 2014, 05:46:07 pm »
seronday,
Thank you very much for that! Excellent!

veryevil,
Thank you for the update, I was going to email my contact asking for a progress report but I'll sit tight then. Hopefully we'll see something in about a month then. If you hear anything else, please keep us in the loop, thank you!
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #214 on: October 06, 2014, 01:04:43 am »
I'm going to give a ds4014 a try.  Is there a calibration board for less in the US from anywhere?  The price at batronix plus dhl shipping adds that up a bit.  I may even lay out a small pcb to order through itead.  If I give that a try, I'd probably start with the source signal in the center and have it come out in 5 even directions...

Ok, how about this, I put this together so far.  Fits inside of 5cm x 5cm for itead <9.90.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 03:17:55 am by alank2 »
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #215 on: October 06, 2014, 05:10:50 am »
I'm going to give a ds4014 a try.  Is there a calibration board for less in the US from anywhere?  The price at batronix plus dhl shipping adds that up a bit.  I may even lay out a small pcb to order through itead.  If I give that a try, I'd probably start with the source signal in the center and have it come out in 5 even directions...

Ok, how about this, I put this together so far.  Fits inside of 5cm x 5cm for itead <9.90.


did ya balance yer impedances to 50 ohms?  I'm not sure this is any better than a bunch of BNC cables and tees.

wonder what the batronix board looks like and if it's carefully laid out or not.

itead rules by the way... but they have slowed down a LOT since updating their gerber upload process to an automated system instead of email.
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #216 on: October 06, 2014, 12:07:20 pm »
did ya balance yer impedances to 50 ohms?  I'm not sure this is any better than a bunch of BNC cables and tees.

I wondered about this last night after throwing it together.  I made the track lengths the same for all 5.  Track widths are 20mil.  Is there something I need to do to balance them?  If so, what?

Edit, after looking at a couple of impedance trace calculators, if I use a 1.2mm pcb, 35um copper, substrate dielectric of 4.35, one calculator gives 87.2 mils wide track and the other gives 92 mils, so I guess I should use a 90 mil track.  The one at batronix looks like it uses some pretty wide track and perhaps this is why.

EDIT 2 - I only have 4 places (between the ground spokes) I can put the 90 mil wide trace from the center connector.  Can I put a ring around it, connect 4 traces from the source connector, and then 5 even traces from the ring to the router ones?  Any downside to doing that?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 12:48:52 pm by alank2 »
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #217 on: October 06, 2014, 01:27:23 pm »
did ya balance yer impedances to 50 ohms?  I'm not sure this is any better than a bunch of BNC cables and tees.

I wondered about this last night after throwing it together.  I made the track lengths the same for all 5.  Track widths are 20mil.  Is there something I need to do to balance them?  If so, what?

Edit, after looking at a couple of impedance trace calculators, if I use a 1.2mm pcb, 35um copper, substrate dielectric of 4.35, one calculator gives 87.2 mils wide track and the other gives 92 mils, so I guess I should use a 90 mil track.  The one at batronix looks like it uses some pretty wide track and perhaps this is why.

EDIT 2 - I only have 4 places (between the ground spokes) I can put the 90 mil wide trace from the center connector.  Can I put a ring around it, connect 4 traces from the source connector, and then 5 even traces from the ring to the router ones?  Any downside to doing that?

I unfortunately am not an RF guy, just enough to be dangerous, BUT, you can adjust your board thickness to change your trace width (for 50 ohms).  I don't know if you used a ground plane or not, but you should be I believe.  If you go thinner board, that calculated trace width should reduce.

I don't think trace length matters, I don't think that the scope uses any time of flight for it's calculations.  Again I could be wrong, but I think it's mostly amplitude and offset calibration.  If ya have a good pic of the Batronix one it might be instructive for identifying important features.
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #218 on: October 06, 2014, 01:34:50 pm »
I'm not an RF guy either.

I thinned the pcb to 1.2mm and that lowered the trace width a bit to 90mils.  I've got a ground pour for ground on bottom/top although it is pretty cut up on the top.

Any problem with the ring method I did here, how about this:

 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #219 on: October 06, 2014, 01:42:46 pm »
looking at the Batronix board they are definitely doing line length compensation, and using thick traces.

I'm not positive whether the ring idea is a good or bad idea :)

The reality is that if you aren't doing this quite right, you will probably never know the difference on the scope.
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #220 on: October 06, 2014, 05:25:22 pm »
Does anyone who does know RF have a comment on the ring technique I am using to bring the center/source BNC jack to the outer 5?
 

Offline TooOldForThis

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #221 on: October 07, 2014, 01:17:33 am »
You were probably better off with the first pattern - fewer paths to echo around while on the circuit board.  I assume the point of the calibration is to drive an edge out of the rear trigger out port and measure the difference in time between when that edge first arrives at the 5 front panel inputs. (and then ignore the many, many trailing echos.)  Unless you spend a mint on 5 phase-matched cables for the front connections, the cable variances will be the biggest error source.  Without knowing the specifics of the calibration, its hard to say how fussy the cable assembly needs to be.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 01:20:33 am by TooOldForThis »
 

Offline Co6aka

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #222 on: October 08, 2014, 01:09:24 am »
...have it come out in 5 even directions...

"Even" doesn't matter if your cables are of different lengths.

Cut five identical RG-174-size teflon coax cables (with one BNC-male already on each) then combine them all into a single BNC-male: Parallel the cut ends, solder the braids together, solder the centers together and then solder to the sixth BNC-male pin.

Too beat to do a DaveCAD image tonight.  :=\
Co6aka says, "BARK! and you have no idea how humans will respond."
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #223 on: October 08, 2014, 07:09:58 am »
I'm an RF guy, and the Rigol Calibration kit board looks like it has fifty ohm microstrip.

I don't know how the cal board is used, but I assume that all channels are set to 50 ohms to use it.

However, the combined impedance will be 10 ohms (five 50 ohms in parallel: see, RF ain't all black magic!) which won't match the central feed which I assume will go off to a signal generator presumeably with a 50 ohm characteristic impedance. Whether this is a problem or not I don't know, but it seems strange to go to the effort of making 50 ohm microstrip and then mismatching the feed point so grossly. But depending on the use case, if all channels are equally badly treated perhaps it doesn't matter.

It is possible there's some impedance matching such as a wideband transformer on the board to deal with the mismatch, but I couldn't see any evidence of this. You could use a minimum loss pad to provide a broadband match too (basically a pi or T made out of resistors, they're inherently broadband, but more lossy than a transformer).

A couple of other comments. Firstly, depending on use case, it may be necessary to terminate any unused channels with fifty ohm terminators or you'll get erroneous results. Secondly, the closeness of those BNCs on your board might make for a bit of fun when trying to fit the cables, you might want to do a fit check first, I did a similar thing with SMA connectors on a board a few years ago, you don't make that mistake twice!
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #224 on: October 08, 2014, 12:22:21 pm »
I don't know how the cal board is used, but I assume that all channels are set to 50 ohms to use it.

It is unclear from the calibration document/instructions, but I wonder if the "50" led will light up during calibration.

Firstly, depending on use case, it may be necessary to terminate any unused channels with fifty ohm terminators or you'll get erroneous results.

I think in one of their calibration or performance tests it mentions connecting the 4 channels, but leaving the 5th one disconnected (the one that is usually connected to the external trigger).

Perhaps they designed for the impedance difference in the calibration itself, or it just isn't important for what they are trying to calibrate.

I made up an easy "joiner" pcb last night that eliminates the connectors and goes right to soldering RG58 to a pcb:

 


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