Author Topic: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode  (Read 10717 times)

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Offline Anding

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2022, 11:44:53 pm »
Yes occasionally - need to double check
 

Offline FungusTopic starter

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2022, 11:39:11 am »
The weird thing is their colormap mode works great.



You'd think they could do hires mode similarly - apply the channel's color instead of a color gradient and allow the user to dial a threshold value to discard the low intensity pixels.
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2022, 11:58:32 am »
Maybe I'm not understanding but this reinforces my "general Rigol feeling": they have good ideas that could be turned into something very good BUT they don't reiterate again in order to improve it or correct any initial/new hiccups/bugs.

It looks like Rigol plays a game in which the contester is only allowed to have ONE shot at the target. After launch the toy is out of reach for their engineering/programming teams and they MUST move on to another project.

This truly expresses my Rigol feeling.
 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2022, 12:10:21 pm »
+1

They´re like raw diamonds needed to polish (MSO5000 in my example), this is something I´ve written all the time.. ;)



Offline Anding

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2022, 01:35:23 pm »
You'd think they could do hires mode similarly - apply the channel's color instead of a color gradient and allow the user to dial a threshold value to discard the low intensity pixels.

There is a setting for the trace intensity, the default is 50% and it can be dialled down to about 3%.  That does reduce the "fatness" of the traces
 

Offline Anding

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2022, 01:41:39 pm »
They´re like raw diamonds needed to polish (MSO5000 in my example), this is something I´ve written all the time.. ;)

I guess the residents with the technical skills do to it have already upgraded from their MSO5000s, but to prepare a well-written technical 'white paper' of observations, ideas and recommendations and send it to their HQ in China.  For sure there will be well-qualified staff there able to read it.

Does the HDO1000 look better polished at first impressions?
 

Offline FungusTopic starter

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #81 on: October 31, 2022, 02:04:57 pm »
Maybe there's only one team and as soon as a piece of hardware is released they all get moved on to the next one. No sitting around and fiddling with the existing one.

Does the HDO1000 look better polished at first impressions?

I haven't seen a full review of it yet but I saw a few things that looked very polished in Dave's video of the HDO4000 and the manuals for the HDO1000 and HDO4000 show mostly the same functionality.
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2022, 02:14:54 pm »
The weird thing is their colormap mode works great.



You'd think they could do hires mode similarly - apply the channel's color instead of a color gradient and allow the user to dial a threshold value to discard the low intensity pixels.

One cannot just discard low intensity signal (in this case low repetition rate values) and call it a day. Making trace artificially thinner by discarding pixels at random is not how it works.
Or should I say it would if scope would be like CRT, lookie at the wiggles. Signal has to be processed in mathematically correct and documented way so what is left is usable for further measurements.

I'm not sure if that color grading is great either, I can't see sensitivity settings. On really low noise scopes, on clean sinusoidal signals, line is one pixel thin. Actually if you enable color grading, you only single color most of the time. You actually see some gradients only when signal is unstable or noisy.
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline FungusTopic starter

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2022, 02:54:51 pm »
One cannot just discard low intensity signal (in this case low repetition rate values) and call it a day.

Sure you can.

Analog 'scopes do it all the time.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2022, 03:28:30 pm »
One cannot just discard low intensity signal (in this case low repetition rate values) and call it a day.

Sure you can.

Analog 'scopes do it all the time.

Sure you can. You can do whatever you want. It doesn't make it right.
I'm happy Rigol knows better. Now this scope has some noise. But is generally made to the rules of the trade. They don't cheat or destroy data.

It is irrelevant what CRT scopes do. CRT scopes don't hide anything. They behave up to strict rules of phosphor persistence and sensitivity of phosphorus used in screen, combined with tube characteristics and signals applied. It is very mathematically pure and predictable.. There are long persistence CRTs that will show same thing as good DSO with same persistence length. But they are annoying for general use.

Digital scopes have measurements, FFT, and people use them as acquisition hardware where they capture signal and then analyse it later on PC.
They abide by different rules to CRT scopes. They are based on different principles and have to abide by them to be proper measurement machines.

Otherwise we have scope art. Nice to look at, but useless for anything more that just confirming there is some changing signal at the place we stuck the probe.


« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 10:22:16 pm by 2N3055 »
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2022, 07:11:17 pm »
ditto, if you want scope art.. super thin lines, its already there...
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline gitm

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2023, 12:58:25 am »
First time caller. 

TL;DR -- Found 2 eeVblog threads on the MSO5000's base-line noise floor, often meandering and hard to coalesce into actionable info.  So, I collected measurements, made a table, and added screenshots of what I think is usable, YMMV.  Posting it here to make it easier for the next guy.  See attachements below, might be more than one post.


Did some research on the Rigol MSO5000 and decided to buy the MSO5204 with LA.  Then, while waiting for it to arrive, I stumbled on to the two threads specifically talking about this.   It gave me quite the angst until my scope showed up.  So, with that in mind, I ran a number of measurements in a manner similar to what I've seen in both this thread and another here about the MSO5000's noise floor. [[ you guys are a fiesty lot  :box: ]]

I'm going to build on bdunham7's post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/how-much-noise-floor-and-other-things-matter-in-oscilloscope-usability/msg3894380/#msg3894380) that shows SDS1104-E X with no-probe noise and a 1mVrms sine wave screenshots.

First set of tests was to run [1x, no-probe, 1mV/div, 5us/div, BW=20MHz] into MSO5000 with and without 50 Ohm termination.  Sampling was done at 8G/400k and 2G/100k.  Std. Dev., Vpp, Vrms were collected after 1000 samples via the MSO5000's statistics.  The table is attached.   Comparing Std. Dev. to the SDS1104-E X, the noise on the MSO5000 is about 3x-4X more (no surprise) but my MSO5204 did not have any issues with triggering.

Second set of tests included sending a 1mVrms 100KHz sine and a 500uVrms 100KHz sine into 50 Ohm in-line termination sampling at 8G/400k and 2G/100K.  [[DG1022Z set to "HighZ" but 50 Ohm termination still in-line.]]
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 01:12:17 am by gitm »
 
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Offline gitm

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2023, 01:03:59 am »
Part 2.  1mVrms Sine, 8G/400k HIRES, PEAK, 2x AVG, Normal attached
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 01:31:19 am by gitm »
 

Offline gitm

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2023, 01:08:08 am »
Part 3.  500uVrms Sine, 8G/400k HIRES, PEAK, 2x AVG, Normal attached.  Single shot as well.
 

Offline gitm

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Re: Rigol MSO5000 HiRes mode
« Reply #89 on: February 28, 2023, 01:15:27 am »
Part 4.  500uVrms Sine, 2G/100k HIRES, PEAK, 2x AVG, Normal attached.  Single shot as well.
 


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