Author Topic: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?  (Read 6786 times)

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Offline uski

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Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« on: October 22, 2020, 03:32:57 am »
Hi,

I need to buy a new oscilloscope.

I was thinking of getting the Rigol MSO5074 : 8GS/s and can be "upgraded" to 350MHz.
And a forum member made low cost logic probes that can be used with it.
The scope costs $999

Another option is the Siglent SDS2104X Plus which has 2GS/s and can be "upgraded" to 350MHz and maybe 500MHz if I am lucky (seem to depend on HW version).
However, the logic probes are $369, and the scope itself is $1399.

The total cost of the solution is lower for Rigol, so it seems like it is a no brainer.
However, I never used an oscilloscope from any of these brands. I have read early concerns about bugs, but I do not know if it is still valid today.

Any recommendation between these two choices ? Specifically interested in feedback from users of these scopes in end of 2020 (recent).

Thanks
 


Offline LootMaster

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2020, 06:07:27 am »
Hard decision...I know.

399$ more for better look and 50 ohm input, apparently faster response time from touchscreen.

I know it sounds funny but Tautech hotline support is also a factor for me.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 06:09:07 am by LootMaster »
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2020, 06:23:33 am »
Well buried on P71 of the SDS2000X Plus thread Howardlong bought both and put them against one another:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/

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Offline mysiak

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2020, 08:05:06 am »
One thing not mentioned and may be a minor point.

On Rigol in office light conditions I have problem to see the CH4 blue signal especially when looking at short pulses. In dim conditions it's better but hey I really hate that dark blue. :)
 
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Offline tv84

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2020, 10:00:52 am »
The total cost of the solution is lower for Rigol, so it seems like it is a no brainer.
However, I never used an oscilloscope from any of these brands. I have read early concerns about bugs, but I do not know if it is still valid today.

Any recommendation between these two choices ? Specifically interested in feedback from users of these scopes in end of 2020 (recent).

You really don't need any more of this than what is already in the forum to exhaustion. There are already excellent threads in both ways (some of them already mentioned).

In the end, i sum it for you: If you can spend the $1.399 buy the Siglent. If not, buy the Rigol. Spin it as many times as you decide, but it'll come to that. Period.
 
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Offline Coder69

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2020, 10:51:37 am »
I have the same problem, because I want to upgrade my Rigol DS1054Z during the next weeks. I know the MSO5000 well, because I ordered it ca. 1.5 years for my bench in office (200 MHz, all Options + LA, ca. 3000 Euro). I have been working as a sofware developer (embedded) and use it mostly for digital measuring. Here my short list of pros and cons:
Rigol MSO5000:
+ price ca 1000 Euro for 4ch, 70MHz
+ 8 GS for one channel, 2GS, for all 4 channels,
+ 2x AWG integrated, each with 25MHz (Siglent: 1x AWG 50MHz, without modulation)
+ 350MHz probes are delivered for the 70MHz model
+ 4 bus decoder parallel
+ fully hackable, clone for LA available
- noisy frontend
- awfull user interface, touch screen is slow
- bad update politic, only two updates within 1.5 years, this is very annoying !!

Siglent SDS2104X:
+ Modern user interface
+ 10,1" LCD (Rigol MS5000 has a 9" LCD)
+ very good update support
+ 50 Ohm inputs, auto recognition
+ lower noise than MSO5000
+ 10bit Mode (upt to 100MHz)
+ fully hackable up to 500MHz
- only 200MHz probes
- LA very expensive (ca. 550 Euro), clone isn't available yet
- costs 350 Euro more than Rigol


The MSO5000 is in my opinion a powerful piece of hardware with a bad software. You can work
with ist, but the user interface is a copy the older models like DS1000Z and doesn't benefit from
the touch screen, big LCD and powerful CPU.
At the moment I tend to the Siglent 2104X-Plus, because I expect a modern user interface and
regularly updates with fixes and enhancements. This I can see at Siglent. On the other hand I
have to spend additional 350 Euro for the Siglent. I think everybody can understand my hesitation  ;)


 
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Offline Coder69

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2020, 12:00:16 pm »
Quote
In the end, i sum it for you: If you can spend the $1.399 buy the Siglent. If not, buy the Rigol. Spin it as many times as you decide, but it'll come to that. Period.
I have to admit that you are absolutely right. The question is if you can spend more money for the scope with more useability. Both of them are good scopes for their prices.
As I said, I tend to Siglent and one reason is that I don't want reward Rigol for almost none update support for a scope which needs it.

Bye,
Coder69
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2020, 12:08:33 pm »
The total cost of the solution is lower for Rigol, so it seems like it is a no brainer.
However, I never used an oscilloscope from any of these brands. I have read early concerns about bugs, but I do not know if it is still valid today.

Any recommendation between these two choices ? Specifically interested in feedback from users of these scopes in end of 2020 (recent).

You really don't need any more of this than what is already in the forum to exhaustion. There are already excellent threads in both ways (some of them already mentioned).

In the end, i sum it for you: If you can spend the $1.399 buy the Siglent. If not, buy the Rigol. Spin it as many times as you decide, but it'll come to that. Period.

Yep. The Siglent costs more, it ought to be better.

If you're the sort of person who wants to follow that line of reasoning to the logical conclusion, there's even better/more expensive devices out there. It's turtles all the way up.

Bottom line: Both of them will do the job.

PS: The "noise" thing is a bit of a red herring. Anybody who wants to make serious noise measurements will use a signal amplifier to amplify the noise and view it on the 5V/div range of their 'scope. That way you can see uV of noise and measure it. They start at around $5 for a basic one (30db boost) on Aliexpress. Or ... build your own as a project, there are many single-chip solutions for this from Analog Devices, etc.
 
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Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2020, 01:03:06 pm »
Hello,

I have a Rigol MSO7000 and I had an MSO5000.
I think the MSO7000 is a bit more responsive than the 5000 but I haven't had the two side by side long enough.
Having said that, I also have an SDS2104X Plus and the responsiveness is more or less the same as the MSO7000.

The software of these two oscilloscopes are designed differently.
As soon as you engage a measurement, you lose responsiveness and wfm/s on the Siglent and this is not the case on the Rigol.
So I'm not sure it's an argument to choose between the two devices.
And the same goes for updates. They are slow at Rigol. But at Siglent, they were quick when the device was introduced to the market.
Now that they have other devices to take care of....not so much.

But, If you care about the GUI, go to the Siglent. The UI is much much better.
There is a kind of anti-aliasing treatment on the Rigol which makes the text and curves look better than on the Siglent but the UI is really good on that one.

If you don't care about that, the Rigol is quite usable and a great device for digital work.
If you don't need special performance in small signals or on analogue stuff, you can't go wrong with this one and with the low cost digital probes from Gandalf_Sr.

If you plan to work on analog, consider the Siglent. Not only for the low noise front end but also for its filtering functions much better than on the Rigol.
And finally, like tv84 says, if spending an extra $400 doesn't force yourself to make choices or deprive yourself of something, buy the Siglent.
 
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Offline uski

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2020, 07:29:24 pm »
Thank you all for your insightful feedback. Much appreciated. :-+

Here is my reasoning so far :
- Context : I am buying an instrument for my home lab for the long haul. I expect to keep it for possibly a decade or more... lab instruments are long lived.
- In that sense, I have no visibility on the work I am going to do with it (what will I be working on in 5 years ? no idea)
- As a result, it makes sense to focus on the best instrument in its core functionality, which is analog signals. That's what oscilloscopes are made for. I'm buying a scope, not a logic analyzer. The Rigol seems to be much more noisy and it is a problem for me.

This makes me lean toward the Siglent, also considering other factors (better UI, I agree Siglent seems to issue more software updates, ...)

Yes the logic probes of the Siglent are more expensive, on top of the scope itself being more expensive. So the cost of the total solution is much higher. However :
- I do have a Saleae Logic (the first one, 24MHz) that suits my needs so far, for digital signal measurements. I never needed anything more so far for digital signals.
- Should I need to work with higher speed signals on the scope, I can always buy the Siglent logic probes later on, when I need them. And if I am lucky by then, clone probes will maybe be available. One caveat is that if I wait too much (years), the probes might be no longer available. But I could also score them on clearance.
- The scope being a 4 channel scope, I can still use it for some basic digital signal work. In this era of serial buses, having a bunch of parallel signal channels is much less important than before.

Regarding price, considering I buy this for the long haul, the $400 more is not a major issue.
I would of course prefer to keep this money in my pocket, but we can't have the cake and eat it too right ? :)

PS: Just saw this thread :
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2k-vs-rigol-mso5000-the-features/
I am a bit bummed that the Siglent seems to be lacking some software features. Siglent if you are reading... please implement the missing features !


« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 07:49:49 pm by uski »
 

Offline LootMaster

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2020, 07:49:29 pm »
Uski, I think you came through with enlightment. I also see this as a long term investment.

However, I do know what I will be doing in the future...And what will suit my needs...

But I now have to admit something  :-[

I will probably go with the MSO5074.

First reason: Saelig does not carry until early late November/December
2nd reason: I deal mostly in digital things and later on in life if/and/or/maybe motor/tesla experiments.
3rd reason: After discovering a few things it seems like I will just save $$$ and its tempting.

I feel a bit sick now. They shipped it...Its in the truck...No more turning back.

Should I stard a new thread:Feel terrible about my Rigol purchase?

Or should I test it first and then review  ;)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 07:51:08 pm by LootMaster »
 
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Offline uski

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2020, 07:51:49 pm »
You know... these things keep evolving.
If you wait 1-2 more years, it is extremely likely there will be an even better model for even cheaper.

So you have to realize that you cannot always get the "best deal" and that what is the "best deal" at a given point in time will not always be.

The way I read this is : you made a purchase. You made it with the best information you had at the time. What you purchased is probably 1000x better than what you would have purchased a year or two ago. So be happy with your purchase :)

PS: This is also why I decided to create a new thread, and not read 500 pages of outdated information. This type of discussion is extremely time sensitive as it relates to what is available on the market currently, and also the current status of the firmware. Most review videos are early models, show software bugs, and it is difficult to know if they have been fixed without asking... "hey what's up with these models ?"
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 07:55:14 pm by uski »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2020, 07:55:21 pm »
A few additional points uski:

New FW is in the build for the SDS2000X Plus according to the factory and presumably will add features/fixes that have recently been done to SDS5000X models.

The LA probe SPL2016 has been used on SDS2000, 2000X and 5000X models as well as SDS6000 Pro that we won't see for some time so be comfortable that SPL2016 will be around for a good while yet.
FYI, LA probes of the same style are used by other manufacturers however as yet we haven't found their OEM.  :(

Member TK has made an adapter to use some generic HP LA probes that come up on ePay regularly.
Info about the LA probes and TK's adapter are buried in the SDS2000X Plus thread.


Oh and for those that haven't seen it, there's a current promo running for SDS2000X Plus offering a free option bundle however LA/MSO is not included.  :(
https://siglentna.com/news-article/save-up-to-1764-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/

Edit to add:
Post with TK's MSO adapter:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3079002/#msg3079002
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 07:23:54 am by tautech »
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Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2020, 10:53:17 am »
I have the same problem, because I want to upgrade my Rigol DS1054Z during the next weeks. I know the MSO5000 well, because I ordered it ca. 1.5 years for my bench in office (200 MHz, all Options + LA, ca. 3000 Euro). I have been working as a sofware developer (embedded) and use it mostly for digital measuring. Here my short list of pros and cons:
Rigol MSO5000:
+ price ca 1000 Euro for 4ch, 70MHz
+ 8 GS for one channel, 2GS, for all 4 channels,
+ 2x AWG integrated, each with 25MHz (Siglent: 1x AWG 50MHz, without modulation)
+ 350MHz probes are delivered for the 70MHz model
+ 4 bus decoder parallel
+ fully hackable, clone for LA available
- noisy frontend
- awfull user interface, touch screen is slow
- bad update politic, only two updates within 1.5 years, this is very annoying !!

Siglent SDS2104X:
+ Modern user interface
+ 10,1" LCD (Rigol MS5000 has a 9" LCD)
+ very good update support
+ 50 Ohm inputs, auto recognition
+ lower noise than MSO5000
+ 10bit Mode (upt to 100MHz)
+ fully hackable up to 500MHz
- only 200MHz probes
- LA very expensive (ca. 550 Euro), clone isn't available yet
- costs 350 Euro more than Rigol


The MSO5000 is in my opinion a powerful piece of hardware with a bad software. You can work
with ist, but the user interface is a copy the older models like DS1000Z and doesn't benefit from
the touch screen, big LCD and powerful CPU.
At the moment I tend to the Siglent 2104X-Plus, because I expect a modern user interface and
regularly updates with fixes and enhancements. This I can see at Siglent. On the other hand I
have to spend additional 350 Euro for the Siglent. I think everybody can understand my hesitation  ;)
FYI, the SDS2000X Plus in 4ch models uses two 2 GSa/s ADC's each with 200 Mpts mem support therefore with all channels active 1 GSa/s is the sample rate and 100 Mpts mem/channel.

My contacts tell me a new firmware version is coming soon which will make it the 3rd release since these scopes were released in Feb so it would seem Siglent are very serious about having these nice scopes very well polished.
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Offline rvalente

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2020, 08:21:06 pm »
Usually the first generation of anything will always carry some problems on as nothing is released in perfection state.

Probably the Rigol 5000 and their front end fits in this picture. I believe the future revisions will fix some hardware problems but right now, they've to amortize all the money from R&D.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2020, 09:18:30 pm »
Hi,

For me, who owned the MSO5074 over a year and then changed to the siglent, the answer of the topic is clear... ;)
First of all, I´m with tv84 - If you can spend 1400 bucks, go for the siglent, if not go for the rigol - nothing else inbetween.
The louder fan and the dim display of the rigol....That didn´t bother me once.
But....
The firmware upgrade rate and the noisy frontend "kills it" and I ´ve changed to siglent without any regrets so far.
Much better display, much better UI, Hires which deserves it´s name, 50ohm inputs, external trigger input and the familary to lecroy let me forget not having 8GSa/s and full memory at all the time (yes, I know, history function..).
The rigol 5000 is a raw diamond, I´ve posted it at everytime the question cames up.
The hardware is powerful, but the software lacks and chances are low, that this will be "corrected", as the 5000 is rigols very low entry level with their own asic.
So again, reminding tv84 "words"... ;)
 
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Offline LootMaster

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2020, 09:52:17 pm »
@ Martin72,

For a strictly digital domain measurement, noise is less an issue.

Well, I have hope that Rigol will fix their firmware issues/bugs.

Why do I say that? Well the decision is a hard one between these 2 scopes and they know word goes around quick, so its in their best intere$t, to take away that argument.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2020, 09:59:49 pm »
Quote
For a strictly digital domain measurement, noise is less an issue.

Of course, but you won´t buy an oscilloscope for that only.
For pure digital works, there are "better" solutions avaible.

Quote
Well, I have hope that Rigol will fix their firmware issues/bugs.

I´d given up the hope.
 
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Offline LootMaster

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2020, 10:03:21 pm »
True...True

It was a very difficult decision. Honestly I dont think I ever faced such a difficult decision for a purchase. Hope I dont regret.

The Gandalf probe tipped in favor of Rigol.

Also, 200 Mhz probes? Come on Siglent...Put the 350mhz in there.         
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 10:05:06 pm by LootMaster »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2020, 10:12:47 pm »
Quote
Also, 200 Mhz probes? Come on Siglent...Put the 350mhz in there.

This is/was a real showstopper as we all know that suitable probes were really expensive when to buy separaretly.
Rigol delivers the max. bandwith probes even with the 70Mhz model - A clear advantage.

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2020, 03:54:12 pm »
Quote
For a strictly digital domain measurement, noise is less an issue.

Of course, but you won´t buy an oscilloscope for that only.
For pure digital works, there are "better" solutions avaible.


Hello Martin,
If you think about logic analyzer, no it doesn't replace an oscilloscope.
It's better for protocol decoding but that's all. You need an oscilloscope also even if you only into digital domain stuff.
And you can work with MSO5000 on analog signals. It is just that you can't see very small signal burried in the intrinsic noise.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2020, 08:25:35 pm »
And you can work with MSO5000 on analog signals. It is just that you can't see very small signal burried in the intrinsic noise.

You can if you add a $5 signal amplifier.

(or maybe a better one with 60dB gain ... they're all on there)

PS: If you want to see 10uV of noise on the Siglent, how will you do it? Same answer.
 

Offline LootMaster

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2020, 08:34:11 pm »
If you are dealing with tiny signals you are in the medical or specialized sensor field. Wich brings this clearly into the professional sphere.

Most areas of growth deal in the digital domain.

And 5G, SERDES requires better scopes, high speed DDR as well.

So for the most part, it satisfies the needs of most.

Rigol has a cheaper product for the masses and I am incuded in that (woohoo)...
 

Online TK

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2020, 09:20:12 pm »
I think the Siglent is better than the Rigol, even with the price premium.

Or get a vintage Lecroy DDA-120 for around $300-$400, it is much better than the Siglent, 1GHz, 8GSa/s, 16Mpts, tons of measurements and statistics... it even has a thermal printer!!!

 


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