EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: MrSlack on April 06, 2016, 11:15:56 pm
-
After an evening playing whack-a-mole with my two Tek 465B's and giving up I'm joining the queue for a Rigol 1054Z.
Only question is: Does anyone know what the warranty coverage is like in the UK? I've had more than enough trouble with a few companies over the years and I'd rather like to get an idea of what sort of crap is involved if it dies or is bug ridden?
-
After an evening playing whack-a-mole with my two Tek 465B's and giving up I'm joining the queue for a Rigol 1054Z.
Only question is: Does anyone know what the warranty coverage is like in the UK? I've had more than enough trouble with a few companies over the years and I'd rather like to get an idea of what sort of crap is involved if it dies or is bug ridden?
Well, Rigol warranty is 3 years and from what I know you (there are various Rigol devices in my environment) have to go through the UK distributor if you need warranty repair who'll send the device to Rigol Germany. Waiting times can be extensive, 4 to 6 weeks seem to be pretty normal.
As to bugs, many have been fixed in firmware updates and apparently new ones have been introduced. Also, there are the inherent design flaws in the hardware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/)
But at the end of the day that's a very cheap bottom-of-the-barrel scope. You get what you pay for.
-
As to bugs, many have been fixed in firmware updates
Yep.
Also, there are the inherent design flaws in the hardware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/)
None of which have been shown to make any difference on screen.
You get what you pay for.
General opinion around here (shared by Dave) is that you get a lot more than you paid for.
-
4-6 week turnaround is pretty shit. You do indeed get what you pay for.
I'm considering a different scope. Any suggestions (under £600)?
I looked at the Tek TBS1052 but the spec sheet is pretty crap. It'd do fine for what I need to do however and the turnaround is fast. I'm slowly moving into the professional space again after a 15 year hiatus so I'm after something I can trust.
-
4-6 week turnaround is pretty shit. You do indeed get what you pay for.
OTOH it might never go wrong. Build quality is good and there's no reports of them being unreliable.
A few people have reported problems right out of the box which is usually dealt with quickly (mostly bad probes or calibration problems IIRC).
I'm considering a different scope. Any suggestions (under £600)?
There honestly isn't anything worth having between the price of a DS1054Z and something for three times the money. It's a big gap in the market. A black hole. That's what I meant by "more than what you paid for".
(OK, that's not actually true - the DS1074Z and DS1104Z are in that gap, but...)
And ... when you go over £1000 for an "A-brand" 'scope you'll be at what those manufacturers consider entry-level. You'll get less channels and less features than a DS1054Z. The warranty won't be much better either, not unless you have an authorized dealer near where you live.
So you can either pay $400 for a DS1054Z or $1200 for a two-channel 'scope from an old-school manufacturer (and hope they throw in a few software options for free).
It's up to you. :-//
-
I'm considering a different scope. Any suggestions (under £600)?
SDS1000X series.
I've had some interest and sales of these recently and they seem well liked by purchasers.
You've obviously been battling away with your trusty Teks but with them :-BROKE I do understand how blind one feels without a scope, any scope.
Anyways you can find your nearest dealer with this link and maybe take one for a test drive:
http://www.siglenteu.com/howtobuy.aspx (http://www.siglenteu.com/howtobuy.aspx)
-
Not touching Siglent. I have a good friend who has had nothing but problems with their software.
What I really need:
Needs: 50MHz. Two channels. Decent warranty. Add/sub math. Triggering that isn't crap. Up to minute long sweep. X-Y.
Wants: FFT. Frequency measurement. No fan. Data logging.
Not much really.
I'm working around 7-15MHz peak so 50MHz would cover any harmonics/overshoot fine. Any HF oscillations I can trace pick up with an RF probe.
Actually sod it. The Tek TBS 1052 does the job and I can actually get one shipped today without queuing which means there are replacements on shelves as well. Plus 5 year warranty. £7.20 a month TOC over the warranty lifetime. Rigol comes out at £13 a month TOC over warranty lifetime despite being cheaper initially.
-
Not touching Siglent. I have a good friend who has had nothing but problems with their software.
Hmm, care to share with us which model and what problems?
-
Needs:...X-Y.
If you haven't used digitising non-CRT scopes in that mode, it may be worthwhile finding a relevant scope and seeing how it behaves in your application.
-
Have checked that. My application is simple low frequency curve tracing. Nothing complex or raster based which the DSOs suck at.
Mainly testing a large box of tunnel diodes I have for ebay deployment.
-
Not touching Siglent. I have a good friend who has had nothing but problems with their software.
Hmm, care to share with us which model and what problems?
I'll find out for you... I think there were some triggering problems with it and it kept hanging.
-
What I really need:
Needs: 50MHz. Two channels. Decent warranty. Add/sub math. Triggering that isn't crap. Up to minute long sweep. X-Y.
Wants: FFT. Frequency measurement. No fan. Data logging.
Not much really.
Oooh! Some actual requirements to work with, that's a first around here! :popcorn:
FFT isn't a strong point on the DS1054Z, factory fan is noisy, the "math" section has one of the three remaining firmware bugs.
One of these might fit the bill, it's slightly out of your budget though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvepxIvy45U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvepxIvy45U)
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/hmo1002-productstartpage_63493-61541.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/hmo1002-productstartpage_63493-61541.html)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-hmo-1002-economy-dso-from-rohde-schwarz-hameg/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-hmo-1002-economy-dso-from-rohde-schwarz-hameg/)
(I'm not sure how data logging would work on it...do the research)
-
4-6 week turnaround is pretty shit. You do indeed get what you pay for.
I'm considering a different scope. Any suggestions (under £600)?
Difficult, as for that money you only get B-brands and they all have some issues. In Europe, Siglent still wants you to go through the reseller for warranty (in the US they do service now directly) and I doubt it will be anything quicker than Rigol. Plus Siglent scopes in general are even more buggy than Rigol, but I guess you know that already ;)
Frankly, with that budget, the DS1054z probably isn't the worst choice.
I looked at the Tek TBS1052 but the spec sheet is pretty crap. It'd do fine for what I need to do however and the turnaround is fast. I'm slowly moving into the professional space again after a 15 year hiatus so I'm after something I can trust.
Yeah, Tek is pretty shit, and that's not just the antique TBS Series. They made the best analog scopes back in the day but their digital scopes have always been sub-par. Plus their support is a far cry from what it once was. I'd avoid them like the plague.
The mentioned Hameg HMO1002 might be an option. It's a much better scope than the shitty TBS.
Since your budget is limited, have you considered the 2nd hand market? A 2nd hand Keysight DSOX2000A Series scope might well be possible with your budget, and while the specs aren't best in class they are decent and the scope is pretty reliable. Plus you can buy a Keysight "repair agreement" which is pretty much a warranty and can be bought for older kit where the original warranty has run out, and it's usually quite cheap, too.
-
Have checked that. My application is simple low frequency curve tracing. Nothing complex or raster based which the DSOs suck at.
Mainly testing a large box of tunnel diodes I have for ebay deployment.
I hesitate to say it, but have you considered something like the Digilent Analog Dialog for that application. Why? It is small and contains a function generator, is scriptable using JavaScript, and has a conventional API. Can be used as a simple spectrum analyser and network analyser up to 10MHz. Also has a 16 channel pattern generator and logic analyser.
It wouldn't meet your other requirements, though.
-
Have checked that. My application is simple low frequency curve tracing. Nothing complex or raster based which the DSOs suck at.
Mainly testing a large box of tunnel diodes I have for ebay deployment.
The HMO1002 has a "component tester" mode. :)
(Dave mentions it in the video at the 13:50 mark).
Don't know what it does, I assume it's like an old-fashioned curve tracer...do the research.
-
Thanks for the replies everyone.
I'm going to take all this away and do some research and reading.
Budget methodology for reference:
(http://i.imgur.com/69sfqiM.png)
Comic sans and MSpaint to annoy :)
-
Budget methodology for reference:
(http://i.imgur.com/69sfqiM.png)
If it does what you need then 650 quid for the R&S HMO1002 is right on the sweet spot of that curve. ;)
-
Don't buy anything from Siglent if you are not sure you don't want to sell it on Ebay later...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/)
-
Whoa that's a whole bag of crap. Added to "never deal with them" shitlist.
If it does what you need then 650 quid for the R&S HMO1002 is right on the sweet spot of that curve. ;)
That's too far to the "paint the ceiling" marker ;)
-
650 quid for the R&S HMO1002 is right on the sweet spot of that curve. ;)
That's too far to the "paint the ceiling" marker ;)
I understand. Really.
If you're not in a hurry then the next DS1054Z firmware update should be out any day now (I think we're overdue for one). Let's see if they fix the math functions.
-
So I spent about 3 hours with by hand over the "spend lots of money" button and didn't click it in the end. Blowing £600 means I have to shelve a couple of projects I really want to get finished this half of the year.
Today I got up with a fresh mind and a cup of strong coffee and blew 3 hours of buggering around inside my two 465B's. I managed to get one back in a usable state. Swapped U1790 and a 10x attenuator module from the parts mule and we're back in business.
I'm keeping an eye out for a gumtree/ebay bargain. Perhaps a 2465B.
I've come to the conclusion that you need at least three identical scopes all the time:
1. One you actually use.
2. One to fix the one you actually use.
3. One to steal bits from to fix the other two.
Possibly a fourth one just in case :)
-
... Blowing £600 means I have to shelve a couple of projects I really want to get finished this half of the year.
... and blew 3 hours of buggering around inside my two 465B's. I managed to get one back in a usable state.
From personal experience, balancing those two conflicting forces is.... difficult.
Possibly a fourth one just in case :)
Make the 4th one significantly different, and better in at least one respect. For me that means a Digilent Analog Discovery to complement my 485 and hp1740, for 10MHz waveform storage and signal generation/analysis.
Must find a way of profitably disposing my working 465, preferable without too much hassle.
-
I'm interested in disposing of it for you if the definition of profitable isn't too much :)
Got my eye on this next: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141948421806 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141948421806)
-
I'm interested in disposing of it for you if the definition of profitable isn't too much :)
Got my eye on this next: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141948421806 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141948421806)
My definition is, of course, too low and pared to the bone and selling a part of my daughter's inheritence and...
There was a gumtree 2456 near Bath for £175 a couple of weeks ago. An ebay 485 went for £246 last month.
-
I saw that 2465 near Bath. I didn't fancy the drive though with the kids. I'm in London so we'd have to stop to wee about 50 times on the way there and back and then there's the inevitable pile of crap food. £246 for a 485 isn't terrible. Nice scope.
-
I'm keeping an eye out for a gumtree/ebay bargain. Perhaps a 2465B.
Unless you get it for free or really cheap (£50 in fully working condition) you're flushing money down the toilet. As I understand it, you already have two analog boat anchors, and buying a third one which by now is 30 years old, is very likely close to the end of its service life and will very likely be another project in itself isn't really an economical sensible idea when you can get a modern scope for less than £400.
I've come to the conclusion that you need at least three identical scopes all the time:
1. One you actually use.
2. One to fix the one you actually use.
3. One to steal bits from to fix the other two.
Possibly a fourth one just in case :)
How about just one scope that isn't an antique that is full of unreliable and worn out bits. and that just works and will very likely do so for the nex decade or so? One that allows you to actually work on a project and not spending time fixing your tools?
Just sayin...
-
I'm keeping an eye out for a gumtree/ebay bargain. Perhaps a 2465B.
Unless you get it for free or really cheap (£50 in fully working condition) you're flushing money down the toilet. As I understand it, you already have two analog boat anchors, and buying a third one which by now is 30 years old, is very likely close to the end of its service life and will very likely be another project in itself isn't really an economical sensible idea when you can get a modern scope for less than £400.
I've come to the conclusion that you need at least three identical scopes all the time:
1. One you actually use.
2. One to fix the one you actually use.
3. One to steal bits from to fix the other two.
Possibly a fourth one just in case :)
How about just one scope that isn't an antique that is full of unreliable and worn out bits. and that just works and will very likely do so for the nex decade or so? One that allows you to actually work on a project and not spending time fixing your tools?
Just sayin...
I can't find anything I'd throw my cash at for £400. Rigol doesn't cut it IMHO. I'm going to defer for a couple of years though and throw the cash at my house instead. Then I can sell the damn thing, move to the sticks and throw a couple of thousand on something nice.
-
I can't find anything I'd throw my cash at for £400. Rigol doesn't cut it IMHO.
The DS1054z has it's flaws but that is when compared with other modern entry-level scopes (like the HMO).
When compared with a 30 year old analog clunker, the DS1054z is still a vastly better scope in pretty much any regard aside from bandwidth and X/Y/Z operation (the Rigol, like most DSOs, doesn't have Z input).
And it's not that this is the only alternative. For example, the HP 54600 Series digital scopes are cheap these days, they are very reliable, and offer most of the advantages of a digital scope, including FFT (with the optional storage module).
-
As it happens I've got an old 465B that's been sat in the loft for years. I decided to dig it out & power it up and it sort of works but has an X sweep problem so probably needs re-capping at least due to its age. I'm never going to get the time to refurbish it so you are welcome to have it for spares if you want.
-
As it happens I've got an old 465B that's been sat in the loft for years. I decided to dig it out & power it up and it sort of works but has an X sweep problem so probably needs re-capping at least due to its age. I'm never going to get the time to refurbish it so you are welcome to have it for spares if you want.
Definitely interested in that. Where are you located? I can collect if you're not too far.
-
PM sent..
-
3 years warranty as Rigol standard service.
dealer as Telonic seems reliable.
I personally recommend Rgiol DS1054Z, Siglent SDS1102X.
NEVER buy a Owon, SHIT.
-
Only question is: Does anyone know what the warranty coverage is like in the UK? I've had more than enough trouble with a few companies over the years and I'd rather like to get an idea of what sort of crap is involved if it dies or is bug ridden?
Just out of interest what is the situation regarding anti-tamper stickers and the Rigol warranty in the UK? Will damaging a sticker result in the warranty being voided or will Rigol accept a scope and repair it despite a damaged sticker - after first examining the device and making sure the fault wasn't caused by the owner?
-
Only question is: Does anyone know what the warranty coverage is like in the UK? I've had more than enough trouble with a few companies over the years and I'd rather like to get an idea of what sort of crap is involved if it dies or is bug ridden?
Just out of interest what is the situation regarding anti-tamper stickers and the Rigol warranty in the UK? Will damaging a sticker result in the warranty being voided or will Rigol accept a scope and repair it despite a damaged sticker - after first examining the device and making sure the fault wasn't caused by the owner?
Just remove the sticker altogether. It's nothing but some pantomime and has no bearing on any legal jurisdictions AFAIK. Certainly not UK. My last piece of test equipment came with no sticker at all. Now who gets to prove that a sticker has been removed or not? deliberately or accidentally?
-
I've read similar comments on the net but was really looking for something official/definitive, are there any links you could point me to?
-
There are the plethora of moneysaving expert and other disseminators of consumer rights out there, but I always prefer to refer to the legislation - e.g. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20)
-
There are the plethora of moneysaving expert and other disseminators of consumer rights out there, but I always prefer to refer to the legislation - e.g. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20)
It is also worth reading the definition of "consumer", particularly for something like a scope:
- 36. Another key definition is the definition of “consumer”. Firstly, a consumer must be an “individual” (that is, a natural person) – the Act’s protection for consumers does not apply to small businesses or legally incorporated organisations (e.g. companies formed by groups of residents). If a group of consumers contracts for goods, services or digital content, they are not left without protection. For example if one consumer makes all the arrangements for a group to go to the theatre or to go on holiday, depending on the circumstances, each member of the group may be able to enforce their rights or the person who made the arrangements may have to enforce the rights on behalf of the group. The other main restriction on who is a consumer is that a consumer must be acting wholly or mainly outside their trade, business, craft or profession. This means, for example, that a person who buys a kettle for their home, works from home one day a week and uses it on the days when working from home would still be a consumer. Conversely a sole trader that operates from a private dwelling who buys a printer of which 95% of the use is for the purposes of the business, is not likely to be held to be a consumer (and therefore the rights in this Part will not protect that sole trader but they would have to look to other legislation. For example, if the sole trader were buying goods, they would have to look to the SGA for protections about the quality of the goods).
Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/2 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/2)