EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Azusa on July 17, 2023, 02:25:39 am
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DHO804
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The power supply.12V 4A with TYPE-C.it looks so cheap....
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4x PVP2150 1/10X switchable probes
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The backside
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power up & about
it based on android 7.1.2 system.
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WTF...
When i adjust minimum vertical division，it has a large ripple at 55KHz and large noice....
I guess it may come from power supply.
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When i place my hand near the channel inputs,the noise become much more like this
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It support PD.I replaced power supply for it from my samsung notebook.Now it looks fine.
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The original power supply,it sucks.This is the cheapest power supply without any fliter....
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The backside of the mainboard.There is a TF card near RJ45 port.It’s the system rom.
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remove the heatsink
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The RK3399 CPU and memories
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The Xilinx ZYNQ XC7Z015 Main FPGA.and a 4Gbits ddr3l dram from gigadevice,and the two empty dram for DHO900?
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RT8847IQ 2GS/s ADC.the same with DHO1000/4000.
it may limited to 1.25GS/s by software?
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RT1642IQ Front End. the same with DHO1000/4000 too.
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the other side of mainboard
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front panel without logic analyzer port
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The AFG for DHO9x4S is a pluggin module.The LA port is directly connect to the main fpga.
The other component looks all populated,
so DHO800 uphack to DHO900 may need to solder up two drams and LA port only and flash the system?
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I really hope external power supplies don't become a thing. Who cares if your product is small if you still have to carry random stuff around.
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Is this power supply some kind of joke? But after replacing it with a decent one, it seems to be okay. Unfortunately, I can only see a thumbnail on the forum, and when I enlarge the image, it shows a different one.
However, I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's cheap, so the first step would be to replace the power supply. Anyway it's a surprising move, it reminds me that cheap usb "thing" from FNIRSI ;D
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Thanks for the tear down.
Does anyone know when this device will be available in Europe?
EDIT: In the meantime I got a reply from batterfly:
Hello, we hope to have them listed into our website https://www.batterfly.com (https://www.batterfly.com) for sale within October 2023.
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It would be though gray marked for sure. Officially - it would be strange, but if some retailers can make a deal, it would be nice.
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October 2023...Time enough to polish some things. 8)
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If the power supply has a type-C connector, then its likely non-compliant as its constantly outputting 12V and will blow up your equipment? ???
Either way probably some junk thrown in by the seller or a temporary solution for a PSU. No way the real scope would ship with that. Still, indicates lack of filtering within the scope itself.
Previous thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-pre-sales-begin/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-pre-sales-begin/)
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If the power supply has a type-C connector, then its likely non-compliant as its constantly outputting 12V and will blow up your equipment? ???
Nope. Type-C can output many different voltages. You can negotiate with the supply and tell it how many volts you want.
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Nope. Type-C can output many different voltages. You can negotiate with the supply and tell it how many volts you want.
Have you seen pictures of this power supply? Linear (?) Voltage regulator on the output is the most advanced device there. There is nothing that can negotiate. They are just seeding output voltage as is.
There are not even wires to negotiate over. They just have two voltage wires and that's it. It is hilariously non-compliant implementation.
I really hope it is just a temporary hack, because even the label on that power supply makes no sense. They just took cheapest PSU they could find and slapped USB-C connector on it.
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No way the real scope would ship with that.
Agree to this.
Nevertheless, a nice and clear 7" touchdisplay, 6-core cpu, hdmi output, 12 bit, same adc´s as the bigger ones...
This scope will blast everything else away in it´s priceclass.
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I would wait to see performance and general feel of the UI running Android. It might not be great negating any positives of the hardware.
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Batronix lent me an HDO4204 for testing in February this year for just under 3 weeks (I reported), so I know roughly what to expect. 8)
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Nope. Type-C can output many different voltages. You can negotiate with the supply and tell it how many volts you want.
Have you seen pictures of this power supply? Linear (?) Voltage regulator on the output is the most advanced device there. There is nothing that can negotiate. They are just seeding output voltage as is.
Oh, I didn't look closely. Yeah, no data wires so no negotiation.
No way the real scope would ship with that.
Agreed. I don't know where OP got the 'scope from but there's simply no way. It's not even Rigol branded.
I really hope external power supplies don't become a thing. Who cares if your product is small if you still have to carry random stuff around.
It's no worse than carrying a chunky IEC power cord.
This scope will blast everything else away in it´s price class.
Yep, I'll be getting one when they appear.
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The original power supply is output 12v over typeC directly. It's a non compliant product sure.
It‘s offically did. All first batch of this series scopes are come with it whether where you buy.
I don't know why rigol provide this. It's not as good as let customers purchase the unoffically power supply separately.
but rigol said they will reissued a new power supply for first batch customer later.
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There are the first batch unbox video from customers on bilibili.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1YP411k7Tw/ (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1YP411k7Tw/)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Dz4y1776C/ (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Dz4y1776C/)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1ox4y1R7qj/ (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1ox4y1R7qj/)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Lz4y1E7bt/ (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Lz4y1E7bt/)
It's all comes with this power supply even DHO900 series.
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I would wait to see performance and general feel of the UI running Android. It might not be great negating any positives of the hardware.
It should nearly like DHO1000/4000.The same android 7.1.2 and the same RK3399.And may same software？
Anyway,the options hacking way are the same with DHO1000/4000.The Key.data and SCPI,and only need to modify the model as DHO800 or DHO900 on the golang script.
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There are the first batch unbox video from customers on bilibili.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1YP411k7Tw/ (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1YP411k7Tw/)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Dz4y1776C/ (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Dz4y1776C/)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1ox4y1R7qj/ (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1ox4y1R7qj/)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Lz4y1E7bt/ (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Lz4y1E7bt/)
It's all comes with this power supply even DHO900 series.
Wow, it's so tiny. You can hold it in hands almost like a scopemeter :D
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Wow, it's so tiny. You can hold it in hands almost like a scopemeter :D
Looks like a perfect form factor to me.
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I can't imagine other countries will allow the import of those power supplies. 12V into a USB-C connector is a big no-no. I hope nobody tries to use one to charge their phone.
(And beware of grey imports :scared: )
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I can't imagine other countries will allow the import of those power supplies. 12V into a USB-C connector is a big no-no. I hope nobody tries to use one to charge their phone.
(And beware of grey imports :scared: )
:wtf: USB Power Delivery 1.0 has 2 profiles with 12V. All via USB-C. Can't see where the no-no is.
I have a Lenovo with a power supply that allows, among others, those profiles.
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:wtf: USB Power Delivery 1.0 has 2 profiles with 12V. All via USB-C. Can't see where the no-no is.
Read the beginning of the thread and look at the power supply shown here. It just sends 12 V without negotiation.
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It just sends 12 V without negotiation.
Of course that's unacceptable and dangerous. But Fungus ended up with a generic quote about USB-C and 12V which is, at least, misleading.
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It just sends 12 V without negotiation.
Of course that's unacceptable and dangerous. But Fungus ended up with a generic quote about USB-C and 12V which is, at least, misleading.
I assumed people would have read the post a couple above mine.
Here's the pic, in case anybody else was confused:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1829608;image)
12V directly into a USB connector. No data lines, no negotiation.
(not to mention what looks like a simple linear regulator)
I assume the Export versions won't have that.
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it is a diode, not a linear regulator. (Makes this thing not better, of course)
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type C! but then you can power it from the power bank :)
It seemed to me, or does phosphor emission-ultravision not work satisfactorily on these new 12-bit oscilloscopes?
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type C! but then you can power it from the power bank :)
If it were true Type C, then yes you could. The way this is wired, any power bank will only feed it 5V 2A max as there's no data lines to negotiate anything else.
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There is hope that the hardware in the scope would actually at least attempt to negotiate if there is something on the other end, but also would accept 12 V directly from a dumb power supply.
I really see no point in abusing USB-C like that. The PSU here must be a very temporary solution.
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type C! but then you can power it from the power bank :)
If it were true Type C, then yes you could.
Rigol's web site says you can use a powerbank.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1832512;image)
The way this is wired, any power bank will only feed it 5V 2A max as there's no data lines to negotiate anything else.
That's only the power supply output. How do you know what's inside the scope?
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The device has a HUSB238 PD sink contorller.just only the original power supply is 12v directly.
but the output is 15V when i used PD power supply on this device.
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It just sends 12 V without negotiation.
Of course that's unacceptable and dangerous. But Fungus ended up with a generic quote about USB-C and 12V which is, at least, misleading.
I assumed people would have read the post a couple above mine.
Here's the pic, in case anybody else was confused:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1829608;image)
12V directly into a USB connector. No data lines, no negotiation.
(not to mention what looks like a simple linear regulator)
I assume the Export versions won't have that.
That's clearly an SMPS, what linear supply would have a reservoir cap on the transformer primary?
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It just sends 12 V without negotiation.
Of course that's unacceptable and dangerous. But Fungus ended up with a generic quote about USB-C and 12V which is, at least, misleading.
I assumed people would have read the post a couple above mine.
Here's the pic, in case anybody else was confused:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1829608;image)
12V directly into a USB connector. No data lines, no negotiation.
(not to mention what looks like a simple linear regulator)
I assume the Export versions won't have that.
That's clearly an SMPS, what linear supply would have a reservoir cap on the transformer primary?
And a shitty one too without common mode chokes or X and Y class caps.
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I can't imagine other countries will allow the import of those power supplies. 12V into a USB-C connector is a big no-no. I hope nobody tries to use one to charge their phone.
That is perfectly defined. USB-C goes to 48V @5A (and some push 6A) nowadays. But Qualcom has their own charging standard which uses D+/D- lines and this standard also goes to 12V (or even more) at several amps through regular USB connectors. It is all about detecting what kind of device is connected.
And a shitty one too without common mode chokes or X and Y class caps.
Actually there is a capacitor across the mains and it looks like this PSU does something clever to filter the harmonics going into the mains. In the end it doesn't matter for as long as the PSU passes CE / FCC limits.
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In the end it doesn't matter for as long as the PSU passes CE / FCC limits.
As long it does, exactly.. ;)
Does anyone believe that ?
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I can't imagine other countries will allow the import of those power supplies. 12V into a USB-C connector is a big no-no. I hope nobody tries to use one to charge their phone.
That is perfectly defined. USB-C goes to 48V @5A (and some push 6A) nowadays.
Yes, but ONLY IF BOTH DEVICES AGREE TO IT. There's plenty of devices out there with USB-C connectors that only want 5V. Would you connect this supply to one of them?
It is all about detecting what kind of device is connected.
So tell us ... how does this power supply detect what kind of device is connected?
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The PSU PCB has provision for a common mode choke on the mains input but only wire links have been fitted. See near L1 marking.
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The MHP-30 Miniature Heatplate uses a type USB-C but requires up to 60 watts, so obviously some extra communication between the Power Supply and Load.
Best,
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Rigol has stopped delivery DHO8/900 now because of the power supply.
i think they will replace each into they already packed up :palm:
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(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1833640;image)
My translator says:
"Hello, Mr. Li, due to the problem of the DHO8900
adapter, the factory does not allow delivery at present."
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In the end it doesn't matter for as long as the PSU passes CE / FCC limits.
As long it does, exactly.. ;)
Does anyone believe that ?
Trace the PCB layout for a bit and you'll notice that this PSU isn't your bog standard flyback PSU design. It would be nice to get a better picture of the component side to see what it what.
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Rigol has stopped delivery DHO8/900 now because of the power supply.
i think they will replace each into they already packed up :palm:
It sounds like Rigol got hurt by a corner cutting adapter OEM.
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That's really on them though. Even without opening it, just one look at the label and it becomes clear that supply is crap.
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In the end it doesn't matter for as long as the PSU passes CE / FCC limits.
As long it does, exactly.. ;)
Does anyone believe that ?
Trace the PCB layout for a bit and you'll notice that this PSU isn't your bog standard flyback PSU design. It would be nice to get a better picture of the component side to see what it what.
I'm not defending the PSU but would you care to elaborate why you say it is not a "bog standard flyback PSU design".
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In the end it doesn't matter for as long as the PSU passes CE / FCC limits.
As long it does, exactly.. ;)
Does anyone believe that ?
Trace the PCB layout for a bit and you'll notice that this PSU isn't your bog standard flyback PSU design. It would be nice to get a better picture of the component side to see what it what.
I'm not defending the PSU but would you care to elaborate why you say it is not a "bog standard flyback PSU design".
I looks like the big electrolytic is not across the output of the mains recitifier directly. Not doing this improves harmonics and power factor.
And there are a few other tell-tale signs that the designer of the PSU has thought about passing EMC testing. Look at the gate drive, snubbers and auxilary power filter components.
Ofcourse this is not a quality PSU due to cheap electrolytics placed close to heatsinks but I don't think it is a bad design at the core. Except for putting a USB-C connector at the other end without the ability to negotiate the output voltage.
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I looks like the big electrolytic is not across the output of the mains recitifier directly.
You could be right..
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1834171;image)
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In the end it doesn't matter for as long as the PSU passes CE / FCC limits.
As long it does, exactly.. ;)
Does anyone believe that ?
Trace the PCB layout for a bit and you'll notice that this PSU isn't your bog standard flyback PSU design. It would be nice to get a better picture of the component side to see what it what.
I'm not defending the PSU but would you care to elaborate why you say it is not a "bog standard flyback PSU design".
I looks like the big electrolytic is not across the output of the mains recitifier directly. Not doing this improves harmonics and power factor.
And there are a few other tell-tale signs that the designer of the PSU has thought about passing EMC testing. Look at the gate drive, snubbers and auxilary power filter components.
Ofcourse this is not a quality PSU due to cheap electrolytics placed close to heatsinks but I don't think it is a bad design at the core. Except for putting a USB-C connector at the other end without the ability to negotiate the output voltage.
Ah, I got the wrong impression from your original "not bog standard" post. Possibly conditioned by previous posters showing the PSU little love, I interpreted your post as meaning it was certainly inferior to a standard design. I wonder if a significant percentage of readers did likewise.
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I looks like the big electrolytic is not across the output of the mains recitifier directly.
You could be right..
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1834171;image)
How's that then? According to the silk screen the +ve rail is fed from the rectifier via a series capacitor. Does that really make sense? I'm betting it isn't, and the actual component in there is either a wire link, or a fuse.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1834348)
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The yellow ellipse is around a wire link. The fuse (red box shape on top side of the board) is in the lower right corner directly above the capacitor symbol on the silk screen.
The capacitor symbol in the yellow ellipse is in the wrong place. The high voltage electrolytic pins are below and to the left. (The red and black magnifying glasses).
So, no real departure there from bog standard.
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Rigol delivery me a Lenovo 65W adaptor.It's made by Chicony.
I‘m curious of what adaptor they will provide when secondary batch.
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It looks fine with the lenovo adaptor.
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Rigol delivery me a Lenovo 65W adaptor.It's made by Chicony.
I bet the final adapter won't be as good as that one.
I'd have thought an off-the-shelf phone charger would be the best option but maybe they're incredibly noisy or something.
Maybe Rigol was counting on future supply-chain availability when they decided on the power supply and it hasn't worked out for their bean-counters.
Still, the 'scope itself looks awesome.
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The yellow ellipse is around a wire link. The fuse (red box shape on top side of the board) is in the lower right corner directly above the capacitor symbol on the silk screen.
It could be but I don't know for sure because I can't see it from the picture that was posted earlier.
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@Azusa:
Could you please post a pic from the top of the open supply ?
Thankyou.. ;)
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The original power supply,a flyback converter.The controller is OB2269CP.
The mosfet is 8n65 8A 650V.
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And we still can't see the one component we are looking for 8)
Please, just a picture from the top that shows ALL the components ;D
The soldering is pretty bad BTW. Can't believe a brand like Rigol delivers something like this with one of their products.
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;D
Once again please, Azusa...
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I bet that in the position with the "yellow-circumlined cap", an inrush-current limiting NTC was supposed to be installed. Since the OEM's ECAD probably doesn't provide a resistor in that form factor in the library, they just used a replacement from the caps library...
Since every safety and EMC relevant component has been omitted anyway, no surprise that this NTC has been replaced with a piece of wire as well. Use a high-ESR electrolytic of questionable brand (that also doubles as PFC...) instead and everyone's happy... >:D
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i just notice the C8 is a wire.... | :-DD
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So the electrolytcapacitor is directly to the rectifier connected, thank you Azusa. ;)
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I bet that in the position with the "yellow-circumlined cap", an inrush-current limiting NTC was supposed to be installed. Since the OEM's ECAD probably doesn't provide a resistor in that form factor in the library, they just used a replacement from the caps library...
I agree with this. Likely they left a spot open for an inrush NTC.
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I bought a GHO924 and disassembled it without damage
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Just received a new power supply yesterday, yes he is from Lenovo
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Hey hubert,Could you share vendor.bin in your device?It determined the model of device.
You can connect the device to adb by network on port 55555. and "adb pull /rigol/data/vendor.bin"
I want push it into my DHO804 and find out how DHO800 uphack to DHO900.
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Hello Azusa, I can give it a try tonight. I am an Android application development engineer, and I believe I can do it. Tonight, I plan to diy a cheap PLA2216 and try to expand the range of voltage usage.
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Hello, I have successfully saved the vendor.bin file. What else can you do to help?
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Thank you,hubert.
My DHO804 is DHO924 now.
Two extra drams are only for LA.It can be unpopulate if doesn't use the LA .
The bandwidth is increased successfully.it has 800ps rise time now.
And the memory depth is 50M now.
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Did you measure the temperatures? How about the fan noise?
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Did you measure the temperatures? How about the fan noise?
Yeah, tell us about the fan... :)
The images are messed up on the first page. When I click on the thumbnail of the heatsink I get the image for "heatsink removed".
If I zoom in on the thumbnail I see a huge heatsink with a tiny fan in the middle. There's a lot of vents on the back so I'm hoping it's temperature controlled and never even turns on in normal use.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1837462;image)
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All photos are fixed.
I tried playing Genshin game on it for hours.The SOC is full loaded.
And the acquisition is running at the background. The temperature was fine. :-DD
The noise of fan is quitely low.
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At the front,BNCs are 48 degree,other is about 40 degree.
On the back,the heatest is the heatsink inside near the fpga about 58.9 degree with hours gaming.The fan speed is fixed.
The back case is about 40 degree average,and the BNC still be heatest.
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(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1837057;image)
Please, what are explanations about this "ultra" high noise what is visible in this image (nothing connected to inputs)
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Do you have a picture of playing Genshin on the scope? :-DD
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(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1837057;image)
Please, what are explanations about this "ultra" high noise what is visible in this image (nothing connected to inputs)
Sorry,I'm forgot to say,this noise is because i bypass the LC fliter to test maximum bandwidth and forgot to place it back.
but it is nothing by default,The LC fliter is about 300MHz cutoff.
here is a photo from a group,somebody tested the file on his dho804 without any circuit modify.
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Sorry,I'm forgot to say,this noise is because i bypass the LC fliter to test maximum bandwidth and forgot to place it back.
It's easy to forget. :-DD
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Do you have a picture of playing Genshin on the scope? :-DD
At reply #84.
and it even can split screen :-DD
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Split screen mode...Wow.
Just wow.
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and it even can split screen :-DD
How did you do that?
Can you load Android APK files on it?
Split screen mode...Wow.
Just wow.
I declare the game officially changed again by Rigol.
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In any case, it's a worthy successor to the DS1000Z series, but we'll know everything else in October.
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and it even can split screen :-DD
How did you do that?
Can you load Android APK files on it?
Split screen mode...Wow.
Just wow.
I declare the game officially changed again by Rigol.
It's no desktop access by default like DHO1000/4000.The built in launcher is for startup its scope app only.
You can install a gesture app and nova luancher then startup it by adb.
Setup gesture service and set nova launcher as default then you have desktop access.
You can install any app which Android 7 supported by adb.
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If ADB works then the hackability of this is going to be huge.
The other thing I was wondering is does it support a mouse as standard?
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If ADB works then the hackability of this is going to be huge.
The other thing I was wondering is does it support a mouse as standard?
Of course.
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The other thing I was wondering is does it support a mouse as standard?
Of course.
I was sure it would... :)
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Thank you,hubert.
My DHO804 is DHO924 now.
Two extra drams are only for LA.It can be unpopulate if doesn't use the LA .
The bandwidth is increased successfully.it has 800ps rise time now.
And the memory depth is 50M now.
Hi Azusa,Could you share "DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL" of your device,It's firmware under /rigol .I have some problem while try to hacking DHO804 to 924 using Hubert's vendor.bin,after replacement it was successfully recognized as DHO924,bandwith increased.But there was Y axis drifting(±(5-10)mv) can not be eliminate by SelfCal.the hardware seems to be identical,the only difference was firmware version,mine is 00.01.00(2023/7/21) which diffeent from yours(00.01.14 2023/07/06),i want to downgrade to your version having a try,Thanks.
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https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhYvp-r_jl5jU-ppDFHwT9WcShf?e=A7y1v1
DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
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Rigol DHO800/900 series oscilloscopes firmware v00.01.00.00.19:
[Model Supported] All the DHO800/900 series oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date] 2023/07/24
[Updated Contents]
v00.01.00.00.19 2023/07/24
1. The first version is released
-Released the production version.
Download:
https://supportcn.rigol.com/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/ftp/Firmware/DHO800_DHO900(Software)UpdateV00.01.00.zip
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Thank you,hubert.
My DHO804 is DHO924 now.
Two extra drams are only for LA.It can be unpopulate if doesn't use the LA .
The bandwidth is increased successfully.it has 800ps rise time now.
And the memory depth is 50M now.
Hi Azusa,Could you share "DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL" of your device,It's firmware under /rigol .I have some problem while try to hacking DHO804 to 924 using Hubert's vendor.bin,after replacement it was successfully recognized as DHO924,bandwith increased.But there was Y axis drifting(±(5-10)mv) can not be eliminate by SelfCal.the hardware seems to be identical,the only difference was firmware version,mine is 00.01.00(2023/7/21) which diffeent from yours(00.01.14 2023/07/06),i want to downgrade to your version having a try,Thanks.
Dear nervdg, Have you already loaded the .GEL file into DHO804? and is it working properly？
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There was still Y axis drifting(±(5-10)mv) can not be eliminate by SelfCal 。
Mine is dho804.
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https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhYvp-r_jl5jU-ppDFHwT9WcShf?e=A7y1v1
DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
I think the difference between the firmware versions released on July 14th and July 21st should be the difference in the Sparrow.APK. So I hope you can execute adb pull /data/app/com.rigol.scope-1/base.apk and send me the obtained apk to try to downgrade.
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https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhYvp-r_jl5jU-ppDFHwT9WcShf?e=A7y1v1
DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
Thanks.I though gel file under /rigol was firmware backup of current runinng version.but i was wrong ,it was complied at 04/15/2023 which looks like an early stage firmware ,the default bandwidth was 200mhz,and lots of options listed in the 'Options' field,looks the same as HDO series,but all function was incomplete or heavily bugged.It would be nine if you could pull /rigol by use adb pull -a /rigol which was exactraed files of current firmware, i want to compare FPGA bitfile and main scope program (sparrow.apk),Thanks again!
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https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhYvp-r_jl5jU-ppDFHwT9WcShf?e=A7y1v1
DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
Thanks.I though gel file under /rigol was firmware backup of current runinng version.but i was wrong ,it was complied at 04/15/2023 which looks like an early stage firmware ,the default bandwidth was 200mhz,and lots of options listed in the 'Options' field,looks like same as HDO series,but all function was incomplete or heavily bugged.It would be nine if you could pull /rigol by use adb pull -a /rigol which was exactraed files of current firmware, i want to compare FPGA bitfile and main scope program (sparrow.apk),Thanks again!
Executing /rigol/build_gel.sh can generate a backup of the current running version of firmware!
adb shell
cd /rigol
rm DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
sh build_gel.sh
after the execution is completed, file DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL is the firmware of the current running version.
-
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhYvp-r_jl5jU-ppDFHwT9WcShf?e=A7y1v1
DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
Thanks.I though gel file under /rigol was firmware backup of current runinng version.but i was wrong ,it was complied at 04/15/2023 which looks like an early stage firmware ,the default bandwidth was 200mhz,and lots of options listed in the 'Options' field,looks like same as HDO series,but all function was incomplete or heavily bugged.It would be nine if you could pull /rigol by use adb pull -a /rigol which was exactraed files of current firmware, i want to compare FPGA bitfile and main scope program (sparrow.apk),Thanks again!
Executing /rigol/build_gel.sh can generate a backup of the current running version of firmware!
adb shell
cd /rigol
rm DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
sh build_gel.sh
after the execution is completed, file DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL is the firmware of the current running version.
I'm looking for version 00.01.14,Could you provide it?
-
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhYvp-r_jl5jU-ppDFHwT9WcShf?e=A7y1v1
DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
Thanks.I though gel file under /rigol was firmware backup of current runinng version.but i was wrong ,it was complied at 04/15/2023 which looks like an early stage firmware ,the default bandwidth was 200mhz,and lots of options listed in the 'Options' field,looks like same as HDO series,but all function was incomplete or heavily bugged.It would be nine if you could pull /rigol by use adb pull -a /rigol which was exactraed files of current firmware, i want to compare FPGA bitfile and main scope program (sparrow.apk),Thanks again!
Executing /rigol/build_gel.sh can generate a backup of the current running version of firmware!
adb shell
cd /rigol
rm DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
sh build_gel.sh
after the execution is completed, file DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL is the firmware of the current running version.
I'm looking for version 00.01.14,Could you provide it?
I'm also looking for 00.01.14, my version is 00.01.00.
-
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhYvp-r_jl5jU-ppDFHwT9WcShf?e=A7y1v1
DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
Thanks.I though gel file under /rigol was firmware backup of current runinng version.but i was wrong ,it was complied at 04/15/2023 which looks like an early stage firmware ,the default bandwidth was 200mhz,and lots of options listed in the 'Options' field,looks the same as HDO series,but all function was incomplete or heavily bugged.It would be nine if you could pull /rigol by use adb pull -a /rigol which was exactraed files of current firmware, i want to compare FPGA bitfile and main scope program (sparrow.apk),Thanks again!
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhYvp-r_jl5jV3l5stbSi2PPZNs?e=9gu2wp
Here is the /rigol from my device,and could you share your early firmware?
-
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhYvp-r_jl5jU-ppDFHwT9WcShf?e=A7y1v1
DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
Thanks.I though gel file under /rigol was firmware backup of current runinng version.but i was wrong ,it was complied at 04/15/2023 which looks like an early stage firmware ,the default bandwidth was 200mhz,and lots of options listed in the 'Options' field,looks the same as HDO series,but all function was incomplete or heavily bugged.It would be nine if you could pull /rigol by use adb pull -a /rigol which was exactraed files of current firmware, i want to compare FPGA bitfile and main scope program (sparrow.apk),Thanks again!
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhYvp-r_jl5jV3l5stbSi2PPZNs?e=9gu2wp
Here is the /rigol from my device,and could you share your early firmware?
thanks your upload. when i replace my rigol folder with your's dump folder. my scope can't receive any signal. Then I recopy the backup file to /rigol it works. But! I found my ch1 voltage shift problem is solved!~. I don't known why, but others three channels still have the shift problem.
Then i found replace the calibration file at /rigol/data/*.hex, the scope will not works. use original file, everything's works well and ch1 doesn't have any voltage shift problem. :-DD
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https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aoiert5pDttAgyILOp7MzfYDLsqZ?e=2QTcRq
Here is one earliest version i have found which build on 04/15/2023.
The firmware which you send to me was not current version 00.01.14 but 00.01.06 (06/08/2023)|O,in fact I think the current version scpoe program APK coule only be dump from android by adb pull /data/app/com.rigol.scope-1/base.apk,and the fpga bitfile could need to access the hardware(spi flash beside fpga chip) which i think it's impossible cuz you warranty will be void.Could I trouble you to dump the apk again? Thanks a lot!
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Hi,
The Rigol DHO800 and DHO900 datasheets are now available in English.
https://int.rigol.com/Images/DHO800_DataSheet_EN_tcm7-5746.pdf (https://int.rigol.com/Images/DHO800_DataSheet_EN_tcm7-5746.pdf)
https://int.rigol.com/Images/DHO900_DataSheet_EN_tcm7-5747.pdf (https://int.rigol.com/Images/DHO900_DataSheet_EN_tcm7-5747.pdf)
You can compare with the Siglent sds-1104XE.
https://www.siglent.fr/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=22 (https://www.siglent.fr/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=22)
The lowest price for a 4-channel dho-800 (dho-804) is 389 USD and the dho-900 (dho-914) is 589 USD.
The DHO-800 starts at 500µV/div and the DH0-900 at 200µV/div, but it seems to be a digital zoom for the most sensitive gauges and that the "true 12bit ADC" starts at 1mV/div.
The DHO-800 has a maximum memory depth of 25MPts (for 1 channel), 10MPts (for 2 channels) and only 1MPts (for 3 and 4 channels).
DHO-900 has 50MPts, 25MPts and 10MPts.
The LA is for the DHO-900 only, and its device is a PLA2216 (the same as for the MDO5000) at around 350-400 USD.
Have a nice day !
F. from France.
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The lowest price for a 4-channel dho-800 (dho-804) is 389 USD and the dho-900 (dho-914) is 589 USD.
Thank you.
Did you find a price list (USD, EUR)?
How much are the 2-channel DHO800?
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The lowest price for a 4-channel dho-800 (dho-804) is 389 USD and the dho-900 (dho-914) is 589 USD.
Where is that? In China?
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The DHO-800 has a maximum memory depth of 25MPts (for 1 channel), 10MPts (for 2 channels) and only 1MPts (for 3 and 4 channels).
DHO-900 has 50MPts, 25MPts and 10MPts.
Hopefully that's hackable :-)
I'm not sure I'd want 200MHz bandwidth with 1.25 GSa/s sample rate but a 125MHz DHO800 with 50MPts of memory sounds like a very good thing.
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Prices are given in English at the end of these pages :
https://int.rigol.com/products/detail/DHO800 (https://int.rigol.com/products/detail/DHO800)
https://int.rigol.com/products/detail/DHO900 (https://int.rigol.com/products/detail/DHO900)
F.
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Prices are given in English at the end of these pages :
Thank you.
$329 is a bit more than the 1999 yuan originally mentioned (would be $275 at current exchange rate).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-pre-sales-begin/msg4869713/#msg4869713 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-pre-sales-begin/msg4869713/#msg4869713)
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$329 is a bit more than the 1999 yuan originally mentioned (would be $275 at current exchange rate).
This is still a super cheap price for what you'll probably(no real test yet and here) get.
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The DOH800 could be a nice secondary oscilloscope for a temporary workstation (can also be connected to the monitor, so the small 7" display would be tolerable). And it can also be operated with a battery for off-site measurements.
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$329 is a bit more than the 1999 yuan originally mentioned (would be $275 at current exchange rate).
This is still a super cheap price for what you'll probably(no real test yet and here) get.
I assume so too.
But $299 for the cheapest model would not have been bad in terms of sales psychology.
The 100Mhz Hantek DSO2C10 is still half the price.
I know that you can't compare the two brands in terms of quality, but Rigol could challenge Hantek a bit more in the entry-level segment... ;)
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Yeah - but the Rigol is more compact and hopefully hackable >:D
but we will see, how the price will be in Europe.
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In my experience, the dollar prices are the same as the euro prices, plus VAT.
The $329 would then become approx. 391€ incl. 19% VAT.
If this remains the case and the DHO 814 is offered for just under 390€, the days of the DS1000Z would be numbered.
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1104Z-Plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1104Z-Plus.html)
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If this remains the case and the DHO 814 is offered for just under 390€, the days of the DS1000Z would be numbered.
The DHO 814 costs $459 according to the list above.
Why do you think it will be available for under 390€?
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Argh, my fault...Didn´t saw it is for the 2-ch/70Mhz version. |O
But even then it would be less than the DS1104Z(from a hacking view of point).
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If the DHO 814 is offered for under 390€, the days of the DS1000Z would be numbered.
Yep.
Also all the Siglents in that price range.
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Actually, all brands in the price range, that's just the way it is.
No brand I know can compete with touchscreen, 12 bit, memory, hdmi etc.
Let's see if and who will be the first to react.
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Actually, all brands in the price range, that's just the way it is.
No brand I know can compete with touchscreen, 12 bit, memory, hdmi etc.
Let's see if and who will be the first to react.
We live in interesting times. :)
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Rigol just offered to send me one. Who wants to see some videos on it?
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$459 for a 4CH 12bit 500uV 100MHz touchscreen scope with HDMI output, USB power source, and serial decoding all standard. Seriously? :o
I don't know why they bother with the 70MHz version vs 100MHz :-//
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That's great
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Rigol just offered to send me one. Who wants to see some videos on it?
:-+
I think you shouldn't ask. Many of us are willing to see videos (teardowns, testscases, comparisons) from you about any decent brand of scopes.
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I don't know why they bother with the 70MHz version vs 100MHz :-//
Surely we need a cheaper version to have something to hack! :-DD
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I don't know why they bother with the 70MHz version vs 100MHz :-//
Surely we need a cheaper version to have something to hack! :-DD
Yep. It wouldn't be Rigol without that.
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It would be great if you can get the DHO900, mostly because it has bode plot. I think the DHO800 doesn't have it.
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It would be great if you can get the DHO900, mostly because it has bode plot. I think the DHO800 doesn't have it.
Better both to point out the differences
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It would be great if you can get the DHO900, mostly because it has bode plot. I think the DHO800 doesn't have it.
The DHO800 is the one everybody will be really interested in.
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It would be great if you can get the DHO900, mostly because it has bode plot. I think the DHO800 doesn't have it.
The DHO800 is the one everybody will be really interested in.
Not really. Bode plot is important and the more expensive DHO1000 and DHO4000 doesn't have it, which is a joke.
A comparison in the real world of the DHO800 and 900 would be very useful, also to compare with the "soon" to be released siglent 1000 hd.
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A comparison in the real world of the DHO800 and 900 would be very useful
Hm, I don´t know if this would make really sense.
Almost the same hardware, same screensize and resolution, same UI, same software...
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A comparison in the real world of the DHO800 and 900 would be very useful,
I guess it would be good to know how useful the digital side of it is in the 900. Would Rigol send Dave the logic probes...?
If the probes cost the usual 300 bucks then it's a big expense so any info would be good before deciding that.
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I bought the original logic probes for my scope a few weeks ago.
I felt as if I had purchased a gold bar, in terms of price. :P
Promptly came reactions a la "I had bought the clone, for 40 bucks." (aha...good for you)
Surely there will be something like this for the DHO900, the socket on the scope looks like it is the same as on the MSO5000.
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Not really. Bode plot is important and the more expensive DHO1000 and DHO4000 doesn't have it, which is a joke.
A comparison in the real world of the DHO800 and 900 would be very useful, also to compare with the "soon" to be released siglent 1000 hd.
Anyone buying DHO4000 has the money for a dedicated function generator and won't need the internal, at which point writing a script to generate a bode plot is not very difficult.
Would it be good if they included the functionality to sync with an external gen? Yes. Is it a joke that they don't include a cheap internal gen on a non-hobbyist targeted scope? No.
https://github.com/jbtronics/DS1054_BodePlotter
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the socket on the scope looks like it is the same as on the MSO5000.
The DHO900 datasheet at int.rigol.com indicates that it uses the PLA2216 probe, the same as the MSO5000.
https://int.rigol.com/Images/DHO900_DataSheet_EN_tcm7-5747.pdf (https://int.rigol.com/Images/DHO900_DataSheet_EN_tcm7-5747.pdf)
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How important is memory depth for most people? Seems like one of the more crippling product differentiations between the DHO800 and DHO900 is 25Mpts / 10Mpts / 1Mpts vs. 50Mpts / 25Mpts / 10Mpts. That doesn't seem too bad in single-channel and dual channel modes, but 1Mpts vs. 10Mpts in full-channel mode seems like a big difference.
Ignoring the option of also being able to add the 16-channel digital probe, would the memory depth difference be a big enough factor by itself for a lot of people to be worth $569 for a DHO914 over $459 for a DHO814?
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Ignoring the option of also being able to add the 16-channel digital probe, would the memory depth difference be a big enough factor by itself for a lot of people to be worth $569 for a DHO914 over $459 for a DHO814?
It's actually the other way around.
I would consider the memory as something that can be ignored and rather emphasize the LA part and the integrated frequency generator.
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I'd love to know if the DHO800 memory can be hacked to 50Mpts... :popcorn:
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Promptly came reactions a la "I had bought the clone, for 40 bucks." (aha...good for you)
Are there clones available? It seems like there ought to be, there's nothing inside one that's worth $300.
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I really hope external power supplies don't become a thing. Who cares if your product is small if you still have to carry random stuff around.
Look at the flipside of this though, it means you can replace a garbage bundled power supply with a decent one...
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I really hope external power supplies don't become a thing. Who cares if your product is small if you still have to carry random stuff around.
Feel free to glue it to the back of the 'scope - problem solved! :)
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Is that a VESA mount I see? :o
Looks too big, and would cover the vents.
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Is that a VESA mount I see? :o
Looks too big, and would cover the vents.
The datasheet linked to in post #111 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5018752/#msg5018752) says it's a 100mm VESA mount.
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Is that a VESA mount I see? :o
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1857664;image)
Looks too big, and would cover the vents.
Might be OK if it's X shaped.
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Is that a VESA mount I see? :o
Looks too big, and would cover the vents.
If you take distance rollers, this should no longer be a problem.
They were even included with my holders.
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Official launch date for Europe September the 8th 2023, shipments from end of September.
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Can we use the DHO1000's rgtool decode the BW option on DHO900?
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On Rigol Europe, there's now prices for the 800 and 900 series
https://www.rigol.eu/products/oscillosopes/112.html (https://www.rigol.eu/products/oscillosopes/112.html)
DHO802 €299
DHO804 €399
DHO812 €399
DHO814 €499
https://www.rigol.eu/products/oscillosopes/113.html (https://www.rigol.eu/products/oscillosopes/113.html)
DHO914 €599
DHO914S €699
DHO924 €699
DHO924S €799
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https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-pre-sales-begin/msg5033239/#msg5033239 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-pre-sales-begin/msg5033239/#msg5033239)
;)
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It's a pity that only the DHO9xxS can do Bode plot (as far as could tell from the user manuals of the 800, 900 and 1000 series).
I would expect that at least for the 1000 series Bode plot would be available, by synchronising the scope with an external generator, like the Siglent SDS1000X-E (and others) does with the SDG1000X (and others)
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It's a pity that only the DHO9xxS can do Bode plot (as far as could tell from the user manuals of the 800, 900 and 1000 series).
I would expect that at least for the 1000 series Bode plot would be available, by synchronising the scope with an external generator, like the Siglent SDS1000X-E (and others) does with the SDG1000X (and others all SDG models.)
Edit to fix/correct.
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It seems like DHO802 has all channels soldered (and the price is close to 804). If it's true, is it possible to upgrade it to DHO914 with the keygen? (I know: DHO802 has neither generator nor logic analyser port on board.)
I can't find any pictures of new scopes with two channels soldered only.
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It seems like DHO802 has all channels soldered (and the price is close to 804). If it's true, is it possible to upgrade it to DHO914 with the keygen? (I know: DHO802 has neither generator nor logic analyser port on board.).
What would be the point?
I think you'll get a lot of useless junk on screen and in the menus. The bandwidth is a bit dodgey, too, the sample rate won't be high enough to support it with all channels on so you could be seeing a lot of aliasing.
(unless it drops the bandwidth when you turn on more than 2 chanels - which would be a cool thing for it to do ... does anybody know?)
If the 800 has the full 50Mpoints of memory on the PCB then that would be worth unlocking that but I don't know if it does and I'm not sure I'd want junk in the menus just to get it.
Time will tell.
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I can't find any pictures of new scopes with two channels soldered only.
I would not rely on this, the larger models with 2 channels actually have only 2 channels installed, why should it be different with the small ones?
(MSO5072 was an exception).
https://rigolshop.eu/dho1072.html
Time will tell.
Exactly, let´s see what happen at the rigol shop next week.
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It seems like DHO802 has all channels soldered...
The DHO802 only has 2 inputs, as seen here:
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1PF411Q7rg/ (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1PF411Q7rg/)
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Is there a chance to use LA on DHO804? Its differential pairs and control lines are directly connected to the chip... Is anything left unpopulated except for main LA connector?
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I would not rely on this, the larger models with 2 channels actually have only 2 channels installed, why should it be different with the small ones?
(MSO5072 was an exception).
The MSO5072 had a paid upgrade option to unlock the other 2 channels. They have 4 connectors on the front, two of them have special BNC caps on them:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1862359;image)
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Yes, this is the exception.. ;)
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Is there a chance to use LA on DHO804? Its differential pairs and control lines are directly connected to the chip... Is anything left unpopulated except for main LA connector?
I'll write the answer for myself :)
RAM for the LA is not soldered, but it's possible to trick the scope to identify as DHO914.
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Just did the unboxing video, OMG this thing is so cute!
Unless it's absolutely riddled with bugs, no one will be buying any other entry level scope, Rigol will own the market.
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Unboxing video is now on my website:
https://www.eevblog.com/2023/09/01/website-exclusive-rigol-hdo800-oscilloscope-unboxing/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2023/09/01/website-exclusive-rigol-hdo800-oscilloscope-unboxing/)
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You sounded as excited as a kid at Christmas!
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Unboxing video is now on my website:
Thanks! Looks great!
But almost 1 minute time to start up could be a bit annoying.
Is this a first time thing or does it always take this long?
Is there a standby mode?
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Size comparison:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8LAccDzLCI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8LAccDzLCI)
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But almost 1 minute time to start up could be a bit annoying.
Is this a first time thing or does it always take this long?
Is there a standby mode?
46sec. No standby, you get that every time.
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46sec. No standby, you get that every time.
The splash screen may be visible for that long, but the power button turns green at 12:25 and the splash screen disappears at 13:19.
That's 54 seconds.
I can already see myself stomping my feet while staring at the Rigol logo :palm:
Probably I will stay for the not so important measurements (95%) with my Zeeweii, which is ready in 4 seconds. :-DD
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Size comparison:
:-DD
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46sec. No standby, you get that every time.
That's 54 seconds.
I can already see myself stomping my feet while staring at the Rigol logo :palm:
And I can see you occupying at least half that time attaching the correct probing solution to the DUT.
A manufacturer launches a 12-bit, 4-channel, portable, ground isolated oscilloscope for pocket money (did I mention it's 12-bit?) and we're nit picking it on it taking 45 seconds longer to be ready (only for quick 'n dirty measurements, mind) than an 80's Tektronix?? ;)
I must have missed a memo.
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A manufacturer launches a 16-bit, 4-channel, portable, ground isolated oscilloscope for pocket money (did I mention it's 16-bit?)
Do not exaggerate, 12-bit vertical resolution is enough. ;)
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A manufacturer launches a 16-bit, 4-channel, portable, ground isolated oscilloscope for pocket money (did I mention it's 16-bit?)
Do not exaggerate, 12-bit vertical resolution is enough. ;)
Good point, well made! I'll go and make the correction.
Mind you, give them a couple of years... :-)
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For those who missed the unboxing (teaser) by Dave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpnwP0M0QMs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpnwP0M0QMs)
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Aha, so Dave also has a 1000 and a 4000 Rigol in the lab - Where are the full reviews ? ;)
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Wow, that thing is going to wipe the floor with anything else in the entry level market.
Fleabay is going to be absolutely flooded with 8-bit scopes.
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Wait and see.
Unpacking, turning it on and playing around with it does not say anything about the actual capabilities.
On paper, of course, the matter is clear, but only when it is proven should we bury the old kings and praise the new king. ;)
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Unpacking, turning it on and playing around with it does not say anything about the actual capabilities.
Some people on YT make a living doing just that.
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only when it is proven should we bury the old kings and praise the new king. ;)
"Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Of course, he could equally well have been referring to Rigol's software release management process / clown show ;)
Nonetheless, there's a good chance, based on reviews of the 1000 and 4000 series that this thing will be a "go" but yes, still all to play for at this time, in my view. Until we have some concrete, engineering-led reviews, it's still perfectly possible for Rigol to snatch failure from the jaws of success.
I shan't be placing an order until Dave et al have "turned it on" and possibly, "taken it apart".
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I shan't be placing an order until Dave et al have "turned it on"
He did turn it on and after only 54 seconds it was ready. :-DD
It may sound ridiculous to some, but to me that's already quite a show-stopper.
The pathetic Hantek DSO2D10 is ready in 10 seconds.
Granted, you might have to reboot that more often than the Rigol, but do we know?
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I can't find any option to increase the waveform viewing screen height in DHO800_UserGuide_EN.pdf.
So most of the time it's showing ~4096 Y levels in ~400 Y pixels.
No Dots mode. :)
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I shan't be placing an order until Dave et al have "turned it on"
He did turn it on and after only 54 seconds it was ready. :-DD
It may sound ridiculous to some, but to me that's already quite a show-stopper.
The pathetic Hantek DSO2D10 is ready in 10 seconds.
Never really understood why boot time for scopes mattered. I have a RTO1024 as the main scope at work. 2-3+ minutes to boot up plus a recommended 1+ hour warm up time.
Not really apples to apples here but 99 times out of 100 you'd have your scope running and warmed up before doing anything.
For a multimeter however I'd understand.
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It's cute, so thin. It's like phones now - they really can't be made smaller or you couldn't even hold them. :phew:
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A nice little DSO! What I don't like:
- glare-type display (light reflections can make reading the display hard)
- touchscreen (a personal preference, fiddly in some environments)
- separate grounding/PE wire (asks for trouble)
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How's the fan noise?
A nice little DSO! What I don't like:
- glare-type display (light reflections can make reading the display hard)
That kinda comes with capacitive touch screens (ever see a matte smartphone?).
A screen filter will fix it, just like I have on my Micsig.
- touchscreen (a personal preference, fiddly in some environments)
You can also use a mouse, etc.
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I already bought a USB-C right angle adapter for when I get my DHO800... :)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1864621;image)
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- touchscreen (a personal preference, fiddly in some environments)
You can also use a mouse, etc.
Add more touchscreen T&M gear and you'll need a USB switch to prevent the mess of half a dozen mice occupying your work bench. :)
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How's the fan noise?
You can hear it clearly in Daves unboxing video, but that was to be expected(small fan).
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How's the fan noise?
You can hear it clearly in Daves unboxing video
Where? Dave doesn't stop yakking for a single second.
(and I don't know if he has noise reduction on)
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Damn, I could swear yesterday I´ve heard it loud and clear... ;)
Now I hear only Dave..
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The pathetic Hantek DSO2D10 is ready in 10 seconds.
And it's not worth the wait. I'd much rather wait a minute for my Siglent.
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I just ordered a DHO804 from aliexpress 569CAD including import tax. Now I need to sell my almost like new DS1054z (hacked to 100Mhz).
Curious what I will get on the old DS1054z on eBay hopefully at least 300CAD.
I was looking for a low cost 12bit scope and this DHO800 series is exactly what I wanted. I have an application where I need to measure current as voltage drop on a current shunt and force on a load cell and 8bit (256 steps) was just not quite good enough even with amplification just to low of a resolution.
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Kudos!
Give us a report when it get's in. :-+
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Damn, I could swear yesterday I´ve heard it loud and clear... ;)
Now I hear only Dave..
You can hear it here:
https://youtu.be/etg9NuaU-vU?t=220
Could be a little bit annoying.
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You can hear it here:
https://youtu.be/etg9NuaU-vU?t=220
Could be a little bit annoying.
That's with some crappy automatic gain control maxing out the volume level.
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- touchscreen (a personal preference, fiddly in some environments)
- separate grounding/PE wire (asks for trouble)
Disable button on the front panel. Everything can be done without the touch screen.
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That's with some crappy automatic gain control maxing out the volume level.
Of course, it's difficult to judge the volume like this, but you can hear the pitch, which is somewhat in the annoying range of a small fan.
And it is obviously always spinning, not only when the device gets warm.
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And it is obviously always spinning, not only when the device gets warm.
Yep. It starts as soon as he hits the switch. >:(
I'm sure there will be some fan hacks for this. I'm thinking of a large external fan. There's plenty of ventilation holes and the heatsink covers everything so there won't be any hot-spots.
There's even some screw holes to mount things. :)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1865143;image)
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I'm sure there will be some fan hacks for this. I'm thinking of a large external fan. There's plenty of ventilation holes and the heatsink covers everything so there won't be any hot-spots.
There's even some screw holes to mount things.
You haven't got the thing but you already are engineering a way to solve a manufacturer shortcoming.
Just remember that if this was with a Siglent all hell would break loose. ;)
Carry on.
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You haven't got the thing but you already are engineering a way to solve a manufacturer shortcoming.
Just remember that if this was with a Siglent all hell would break loose. ;)
Huh? Fan replacement is a universal thing across all brands. Siglent has fan mods, too.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-1202x-e-noise-issues/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-1202x-e-noise-issues/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-1104x-e-noisy-fan-replacement/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-1104x-e-noisy-fan-replacement/)
I'm just commenting that it looks very easy to do on these new Rigols.
It's something manufacturers should pay more attention to. I really don't think any home user would mind paying $10 more for a quieter cooling system, and these 'scopes are aimed at home users.
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After watching the teardown of the other Rigol HD scopes by Dave and now this low cost HD scope, think Rigol should be complemented on taking the risk of developing a custom chip set! We know what's involved in this undertaking, and even if Rigol subcontracted this out (likely) they still had an enormous investment up front with enormous risks.
Think we are seeing fruits of Rigol's custom chip set investments, and for these to prove out financially they must utilize a very large number of these chip sets. Here we're likely talking 100,000 or more of these chip sets, and thus they need to find many products to utilize such, one of which is this new low cost HD scope!! From what we know Rigol is the only second tier OEM to support a custom DSO/MSO chip set, putting them on par with Keysight, Tektronix and LeCroy (maybe R&S) regarding such.
Hopefully Rigol will do an equally good job as they've done with the custom chip set with the firmware and UI. So far the UI is very attractive but seems riddled with bugs in the early releases, which many have indicated may have been released a little too early.
Anyway, interesting times for us lab rats :-+
Best,
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Hopefully Rigol will do an equally good job as they've done with the custom chip set with the firmware and UI. So far the UI is very attractive but seems riddled with bugs in the early releases, which many have indicated may have been released a little too early.
You have a list of these "bugs"?
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You have a list of these "bugs"?
Where's the full screen button? Noticeable disadvantage. 7'' LCD and no way to make the picture full screen.
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I'm just commenting that it looks very easy to do on these new Rigols.
Ahh, you mean that's what the VESA mount is actually for - mounting a fan that doesn't drive you insane.
Are VESA mount fans a thing yet? ;D
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Are VESA mount fans a thing yet? ;D
3d printed VESA mount PC fan adapters are https://www.printables.com/model/319657-120mm-fan-to-vesa-mount-adapter (https://www.printables.com/model/319657-120mm-fan-to-vesa-mount-adapter)
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I don't think there can be any noise issue. Simply because it's not a rack-type equipment, too little metal parts inside to resonate. Anyway, it seems pure european issue. In NA (the primary market) the folks are accustomed to loud hiss in the living room from air conditioner, it's considered normal. That subtle fan can't make any difference.
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Hopefully Rigol will do an equally good job as they've done with the custom chip set with the firmware and UI. So far the UI is very attractive but seems riddled with bugs in the early releases, which many have indicated may have been released a little too early.
You have a list of these "bugs"?
Sure start reading this thread and the others related to the new Rigol HD DSOs, document each issue and post back here and we'll all grade you ;)
Best,
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3d printed VESA mount PC fan adapters are https://www.printables.com/model/319657-120mm-fan-to-vesa-mount-adapter (https://www.printables.com/model/319657-120mm-fan-to-vesa-mount-adapter)
Makes little sense, that would be like putting a fan behind the scope.
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That's with some crappy automatic gain control maxing out the volume level.
Of course, it's difficult to judge the volume like this, but you can hear the pitch, which is somewhat in the annoying range of a small fan.
And it is obviously always spinning, not only when the device gets warm.
Yes, always on, and winey. Not that loud, but noticeable. The DS1054Z is louder but has a low frequency.
The Siglent 1104X-E is slightly lower and sounds like a broader but lower frequency response.
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Here is a simple fan mod:
Work a single day with a Lecroy Wavejet scope.
After this every other scope seems not to have a fan on board... ;)
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That's with some crappy automatic gain control maxing out the volume level.
Of course, it's difficult to judge the volume like this, but you can hear the pitch, which is somewhat in the annoying range of a small fan.
And it is obviously always spinning, not only when the device gets warm.
Yes, always on, and winey. Not that loud, but noticeable. The DS1054Z is louder but has a low frequency.
The Siglent 1104X-E is slightly lower and sounds like a broader but lower frequency response.
Talk about loud annoying fans, the Hioki IM3536 LCR meter sounds like a damn jet engine, and this is normal |O
Often can't use this meter as it annoys the family, and they are in another room, it's that bad :P
Best,
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You have a list of these "bugs"?
Where's the full screen button? Noticeable disadvantage. 7'' LCD and no way to make the picture full screen.
How is that a "bug"?
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I bought a GHO924 and disassembled it without damage
Many thanks! So those 2x DRAMs needed for the logic analyser are GigaDevice GDP2BFLM-CA, 96-ball FBGA:
https://www.gigadevice.com.cn/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/20230704/DS-00823-GDP2BFLM-Rev1.1.pdf (https://www.gigadevice.com.cn/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/20230704/DS-00823-GDP2BFLM-Rev1.1.pdf)
Edit: is this extra memory needed for the 50Mpts sample depth of the 900 models, or for the logic analyser, or both?
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The AFG for DHO9x4S is a pluggin module.The LA port is directly connect to the main fpga.
The other component looks all populated,
so DHO800 uphack to DHO900 may need to solder up two drams and LA port only and flash the system?
Do you have any more information about the AFG module? Thanks!
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I bought the original logic probes for my scope a few weeks ago.
I felt as if I had purchased a gold bar, in terms of price. :P
Promptly came reactions a la "I had bought the clone, for 40 bucks." (aha...good for you)
Surely there will be something like this for the DHO900, the socket on the scope looks like it is the same as on the MSO5000.
Do you know if anyone sells those PLA2216 LA clones? I've seen a few design files on the forums, but no one selling a ready-soldered board (in 2023). Can't find any clones on ebay.
@Gandalf_Sr https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ms05000-budget-logic-analyzer-probe-set-design/msg2978274/#msg2978274 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ms05000-budget-logic-analyzer-probe-set-design/msg2978274/#msg2978274)
@S. Petrukhin cheaper design https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/low-cost-logic-analyzer-probe-for-rigol-mso5000-easyeda-project/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/low-cost-logic-analyzer-probe-for-rigol-mso5000-easyeda-project/)
@Peter_the_diver modified from Petrukhin's design https://eltguy.de/en/selbstbauprojekte-elektronik-technik-hobbytechnologien/logic-probe-ein-digitaler-16-kanal-tastkopf-fuer-oszilloskop/ (https://eltguy.de/en/selbstbauprojekte-elektronik-technik-hobbytechnologien/logic-probe-ein-digitaler-16-kanal-tastkopf-fuer-oszilloskop/)
Edit: found some clones on ebay.com (but not .co.uk) at around US$80 including test clips and 3D printed tray.
Thanks
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Guys, is the HDO and DHO series from Rigol same? I am bit confused.
E.g. HDO1204 vs DHO1204
https://mall.rigol.com/item.html?item_id=1427
https://mall.rigol.com/item.html?item_id=1484
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Guys, is the HDO and DHO series from Rigol same? I am bit confused.
I think they had to change the name to DHO for legal reasons, so their website still has the original names as product pages?
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Guys, is the HDO and DHO series from Rigol same? I am bit confused.
E.g. HDO1204 vs DHO1204
https://mall.rigol.com/item.html?item_id=1427
https://mall.rigol.com/item.html?item_id=1484
Yes, model names changed from HDO to DHO.
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Not only looks like MSO5000, but according to the datasheet, the PLA2216 is the probe to use :)
(and indeed a bar of gold feeling 8))
I bought the original logic probes for my scope a few weeks ago.
I felt as if I had purchased a gold bar, in terms of price. :P
Promptly came reactions a la "I had bought the clone, for 40 bucks." (aha...good for you)
Surely there will be something like this for the DHO900, the socket on the scope looks like it is the same as on the MSO5000.
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Guys, is the HDO and DHO series from Rigol same? I am bit confused.
E.g. HDO1204 vs DHO1204
The thread for these models is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-hdo1000-and-hdo4000-12bit-oscilloscopes-launched-in-china/msg4576036/#msg4576036 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-hdo1000-and-hdo4000-12bit-oscilloscopes-launched-in-china/msg4576036/#msg4576036)
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I want to buy a new osciloscope i was going to buy the rigol mso5074 but now that this scopes came out im not sure, what you guys think about the diferences between both? i know there is still not a lot of information but i dont know if i make use of the 12 bits resolution.
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Guys, my DHO914S arrives tomorrow and I'm ready to try DIY LA logic module PLA2216, it runs great on my MSO5000 oscilloscope.
And then I will talk about dismantling DHO914S look at the AFG module structure inside it, and by the way, I want to get a free DHO924S. :-DD
I also have to assemble VESA100 as a fixation bracket, please wait for my homework.
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How is that a "bug"?
Well, let's define bug. It can be defined as something that should not be there. But if I were a bug, I would reply that I'm living there similar to all my ancestors from the entropy family while everyone else is a newcomer that shall be more humble on the first place (refer to the zoot suite issues back at the WW2 times). Or we can define bug as a difference between the expected and the actual behaviors. It also can be called a defect. The best way to make a defect-free product is to don't specify the expected behavior. We can provide it by our own but such defect claims will be baseless from the manufacturer's perspective. No documentation, no defects. In that particular case, the screen size of 7" is advertised but what exactly does it mean? It can be seen on the video that the picture does not occupy whole screen. There are dark areas at the borders. What if there are no pixels at all, only glass, so the working screen size is something about 6 5/9, not 7 (sorry I'm not a master of that weird math)? In that case, it can't be fixed by the firmware. Call it a bug or otherwise but it does not make the picture bigger.
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There are dark areas at the borders. What if there are no pixels at all, only glass, so the working screen size is something about 6 5/9, not 7 (sorry I'm not a master of that weird math)? In that case, it can't be fixed by the firmware. Call it a bug or otherwise but it does not make the picture bigger.
There is a capacitive touch glass on front of the 7" LCD screen and so there are no unused pixels with the black border being the touch glass that is outside of the 7" LCD screen area.
The complain was about the waveform area witch is only 400 pixels in height where LCD has 600 pixels with the 200 being used for the menu. They will like a full screen option for the waveform and consider that to be a bug.
I fully understand why Rigol decided to use 400 lines to display a 12bit (4096) waveform as it a simple divide by 10 and full screen on this 1024x600 screen will just not make sense.
If anyone wants to see a higher resolution waveform then they can just download the raw data and plot in excel or whatever graph application they prefer.
So the fact that a full screen waveform function does not exist is not a bug.
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hello souldevelop.
I'm happy that you purchased dho924s. I wonder if you know the adb command. I want to replace the complete rigol folder to unlock the highest configuration. Can you share the zip file of this folder? Thank you so much.
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There is a capacitive touch glass on front of the 7" LCD screen
It it a glass screen?
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There is a capacitive touch glass on front of the 7" LCD screen and so there are no unused pixels with the black border being the touch glass that is outside of the 7" LCD screen area.
Understood. So the glass size is larger than 7". That's a design decision although it's not clear without the explainer, why not all glass area is used for picture.
The complain was about the waveform area witch is only 400 pixels in height where LCD has 600 pixels with the 200 being used for the menu. They will like a full screen option for the waveform and consider that to be a bug.
I fully understand why Rigol decided to use 400 lines to display a 12bit (4096) waveform as it a simple divide by 10 and full screen on this 1024x600 screen will just not make sense.
If anyone wants to see a higher resolution waveform then they can just download the raw data and plot in excel or whatever graph application they prefer.
So the fact that a full screen waveform function does not exist is not a bug.
So it's exactly the same as with DS1054Z. I also doubt it can be considered a bug, but what was definitely not good is that the scope draws the trace such that the waveform looks clipped while it's actually not as there is some headroom above and below the upper/lower margin on the screen. I wonder if the new model behaves similar
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I fully understand why Rigol decided to use 400 lines to display a 12bit (4096) waveform as it a simple divide by 10 and full screen on this 1024x600 screen will just not make sense.
I think it's more likely to be attributable to the amount of shared code, specifically UI and UI elements/assets in this case, across the DHO range. The menu bar size seems (largely) fixed across the range if you look at the DHO 1000 or 4000 series, and so what's left over for waveform display is purely a function of the total screen size and resolution of a particular model.
Given that, as you rightly point out, there's a lot of pixel mapping going on in the vertical deflection with 12-bit scopes as compared to 8-bit, and also given that HDMI outputs are becoming common, I'm curious as to whether higher resolutions would be viable and practical, when using external displays. Or whether this has a massive impact on display update rates and hence why it's not being implemented in the DHO.
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It it a glass screen?
LCD screen is 7" and on top of that there is a capacitive glass touch sensor that is slightly larger as it is on almost any other similar device.
Understood. So the glass size is larger than 7". That's a design decision although it's not clear without the explainer, why not all glass area is used for picture.
It was obvious to me as soon as I saw the oscilloscope that there is a capacitive glass touch sensor on top of the LCD screen same as all other oscilloscopes with touch or any tablet. The screen and capacitive glass touch sensor are two separate components.
So it's exactly the same as with DS1054Z. I also doubt it can be considered a bug, but what was definitely not good is that the scope draws the trace such that the waveform looks clipped while it's actually not as there is some headroom above and below the upper/lower margin on the screen. I wonder if the new model behaves similar
The waveform may actually be clipped if the signal voltage is higher than what can be displayed on the screen. Best guess is that they used 400 lines to display the 4096 points waveform with a 10x divider so there will be only maybe 10 lines outside of the display window that are captured.
You will just set the vertical resolution so that the signal will fit in the display window and then you can zoom in to it after the waveform is captured.
I guess you seen the video where Dave hits the BNC connector but he head no idea what voltage will be generated by that thus it is outside of the measurement range. You will just change the V/div setting and repeat the test so that you can capture the entire waveform. This is valid for any oscilloscope.
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Given that, as you rightly point out, there's a lot of pixel mapping going on in the vertical deflection with 12-bit scopes as compared to 8-bit, and also given that HDMI outputs are becoming common, I'm curious as to whether higher resolutions would be viable and practical, when using external displays. Or whether this has a massive impact on display update rates and hence why it's not being implemented in the DHO.
8bit is just 256 so easy to fit 1:1 on any screen.
For 10bit oscilloscopes 1024 is also possible to have 1:1 mapping if you have a full HD screen and then it may make sense to remove all menu items to show the waveform full screen to get that nice 1:1 mapping.
But for 12bit it is not cost effective to have an LCD with 4096 lines (that will be a huge vertical resolution) I think there are some 8K TV's or monitors but large size not suitable for a small oscilloscope and clearly not for a budget one.
As for external screen I think the output from HDMI will be the exact same 1024x600 and just a mirror of the internal screen.
If you need to see the full 12bit you will need to zoom in or save the raw waveform and use excel to plot on your computer but you will still not see the full 12bit unless you have an 8K screen so you still need to zoom in.
It is even worse on the horizontal time domain where you may have captured millions of points so there you need to zoom in no matter your screen resolution.
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Never really understood why boot time for scopes mattered. I have a RTO1024 as the main scope at work. 2-3+ minutes to boot up plus a recommended 1+ hour warm up time.
Not really apples to apples here but 99 times out of 100 you'd have your scope running and warmed up before doing anything.
For a multimeter however I'd understand.
Nope, scope goes on when I need to use it. Quick boot time is why my go-to scope on the bench is still an Agilent/Keysight MSO7104, despite there being plenty of other otherwise more competent scopes to hand.
What's the difference in the use case with a multimeter?
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I don't find the boot time that dramatic either.
I once worked with a Lecroy WS422 for a while, and when you turned it on, you could still get a coffee and go to the toilet, so you didn't miss anything. ;)
Time is relative.
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As for external screen I think the output from HDMI will be the exact same 1024x600 and just a mirror of the internal screen.
It will be for these units, as for the MSO5000, but that was my actual question - does it *need* to be this way? Will the next logical step for manufacturers be to allow for different screen resolutions when using external displays? It doesn't seem so unreasonable, now that these are effectively Android-based devices running an oscilloscope UI application.
I've a 3440x1440 native monitor sat on my workstation which of course isn't "12-bit native" but still would be nice to use, compared to a 7" display (if you're my age).
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I don't find the boot time that dramatic either.
I once worked with a Lecroy WS422 for a while, and when you turned it on, you could still get a coffee and go to the toilet, so you didn't miss anything. ;)
Time is relative.
That's precisely the kind of productivity loss I try to avoid!
When I come to a natural stop in my workflow, I'll make a cuppa. Otherwise I want to keep the momentum going.
Before you know if, that break waiting for your scope to boot turns into an excuse to do all manner of things completely unconnected with the job at hand.
I'm just talking from my own experience: the fewer excuses I have, the more productive I am thanks to an uninterrupted workflow.
But as I work for myself, I guess I have more incentive to be more productive.
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If a boot time of about 1 minute on average causes a noticeable loss of productivity, you should rethink your time management in general.
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FYI, USB-C power consumption is 15V @37W with 4 channels and math running.
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Most 'scopes these days (including this one) run a variant of Linux so they take time to boot. They have file systems, USB drivers, etc., that probably shouldn't be reinvented from scratch (You want bugs? We've got bugs...!)
OTOH it could have a sleep mode. This is Android...
Maybe the FPGA, front end, etc., can't go to sleep so they'd have to leave most of it powered on, including the fan. I wouldn't want a noisy 20W device constantly running on my desk.
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Photos of the HDMI output on a 4K monitor. Info says it's actually 3840x2160@60 :o
And it does look sharper than than the internal 1024x600.
I'm not sure if it's the scope upsacling, or it's the BENQ monitor?
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I'm not sure if it's the scope upsacling, or it's the BENQ monitor?
This suggests it's the 'scope: :o :o
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1866259;image)
I'd bet against it having more pixels though. It's probably just that 1024x600 is very high definition on a 7" screen so you don't appreciate it.
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On my 2K monitor, at first is chucked a wobbly and told me 1920x1080 with garbage but after a reboot I got 2560x1440
So it seems like the Rigol is detecting the resolution of the monitor and adjusting it's output?
I can say that it looks very nice and sharp. It's clearly not a fixed 1024x600 output.
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All the menus and fonts are being rendered at the higher resolution?
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I can't see any extra resolution in the waveform area on HDMI, just bigger.
The Y sample levels look about the same as 8 bit, 25 levels per division, 200 over 8 div./400 pixels. :-//
Is it really 12 bit. :)
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All the menus and fonts are being rendered at the higher resolution?
They seem to be. Not sure abotu the waveform though, at least in terms of actual sampled bit rendering.
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I can't see any extra resolution in the waveform area on HDMI, just bigger.
The Y sample levels look about the same as 8 bit, 25 levels per division, 200 over 8 div./400 pixels. :-//
Is it really 12 bit. :)
:palm:
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:palm:
Dave has just said the same. :)
They seem to be. Not sure abotu the waveform though, at least in terms of actual sampled bit rendering.
That looks just like the normal 8 bit, 1 bit of noise.
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Dave has just said the same. :)
Sort of. However, not displaying 4096 pixels does not imply the scope is not 12-bit. Nor does it significantly reduce the merit of having a 12-bit front end.
To fully display 12-bits of vertical information you would need better than 8K resolution, assuming you want some other information on the display as well. I don't think that would be a reasonable ask for a sub $400 scope. At least today. Plus, you'd need gigantic monitor to take advantage of that kind of resolution. I have a 50" 4K TV and when I play full 4K video on it I have to stand within 0.5m to see the pixels. Then I can't see what it is I'm looking at.
Personally, I think this whole race for more and more display resolution is a waste. Double would be nice, but in my opinion 10X is just ridiculous for human eyes. Maybe a hawk, but they don't use oscilloscopes much.
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I agree, but I would hope they're doing 4096/8 which would give 512 levels to cover the ~400 Y pixels, which would be an improvement over the display of 200 levels covering 400 pixels that we usually see on an 8 bit.
Lets hope the extra resolution is used during MATH at least. :)
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Guys, I'm back, I self-calibrated DHO914S and tested the noise floor, which is probably between 210uVpp~260uVpp, which is basically normal. I tested the BODE plot and found a bug that when the CH1 or CH2 channel gear is much smaller than the signal amplitude of the AFG, it runs without any display, which is unacceptable, and I guess it is not able to automatically adjust the vertical gear of the oscilloscope to adapt to the signal source. I didn't know if it was just me who appeared, and then I connected my homemade 16-channel LA and the test results were satisfactory. By the way, I got another 250M bandwidth for free, and now the only thing missing is VESA100 Didn't arrive, I'll make up later, thanks.
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Teardown:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72177720310962700/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72177720310962700/)
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Teardown:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72177720310962700/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72177720310962700/)
I'm not seeing any dedicated RAM for sample memory and that Zynq chip doesn't have enough.
There's also no obvious wide signal paths coming out of the FPGA so where's the sample memory? Is it inside this ADC chip?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1866514;image)
(Just wondering if the DHO800 will be hackable to 50Ms memory...)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1866508;image)
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Guys, I'm back, I self-calibrated DHO914S and tested the noise floor, which is probably between ......
Thanks for sharing. I am extremely interested in the HDMI output. Could you please connect the scope to an external monitor and show us how it looks? Also, does the scope support a mouse/keyboard when you plug it in to USB. (R&S scopes do).
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Guys, I'm back, I self-calibrated DHO914S and tested the noise floor, which is probably between ......
Thanks for sharing. I am extremely interested in the HDMI output. Could you please connect the scope to an external monitor and show us how it looks?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5044444/#msg5044444 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5044444/#msg5044444)
Also, does the scope support a mouse/keyboard when you plug it in to USB. (R&S scopes do).
It supports mouse.
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Guys, I'm back, I self-calibrated DHO914S and tested the noise floor, which is probably between ......
Thanks for sharing. I am extremely interested in the HDMI output. Could you please connect the scope to an external monitor and show us how it looks?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5044444/#msg5044444 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5044444/#msg5044444)
Also, does the scope support a mouse/keyboard when you plug it in to USB. (R&S scopes do).
It supports mouse.
Excellent, thanks for sharing.
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I tried to read the 32GB SD card that was glued into place on the board, but can't see anything. I tried using DiskINternals Linux Reader but it doesn't read it.
Anyone know what it's for?
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Guys, I'm back, I self-calibrated DHO914S and tested the noise floor, which is probably between ......
Thanks for sharing. I am extremely interested in the HDMI output. Could you please connect the scope to an external monitor and show us how it looks? Also, does the scope support a mouse/keyboard when you plug it in to USB. (R&S scopes do).
Go back one page, I posted photos.
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All the menus and fonts are being rendered at the higher resolution?
They seem to be.
That makes sense if you think about it. Their new OS has to work on different size screens (eg. the DHO1000/4000 series have bigger screens) so it could be programmed to scale the UI properly.
The RK3399 chip which is driving the HDMI output is capable of 2160p@60fps, ie. 4096x2304 resolution.
http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3399 (http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3399)
(It should run DOOM amazingly well, and quite a few other things, too)
The waveform display will be down to the FPGA so maybe that's not as flexible.
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On my 2K monitor, at first is chucked a wobbly and told me 1920x1080 with garbage but after a reboot I got 2560x1440
So it seems like the Rigol is detecting the resolution of the monitor and adjusting it's output?
I can say that it looks very nice and sharp. It's clearly not a fixed 1024x600 output.
Both resolutions you mentioned were scaled up 1280*720 :
x3 3840*2160
x2 2560x1440.
It might be scaler in scope or monitor, but seems like upscaling of native 1280*720.
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Both resolutions you mentioned were scaled up 1280*720 :
Most resolutions are multiples of some smaller resolution, no surprises there.
OTOH 1280x720 doesn't match either the HDO800 or the HDO1000 built-in screens. The HDO800 is 1024x600 and the HDO1000 is 1280×800.
It looks to me more like the UI is fully scalable (which makes sense - it's an Android APP)
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Teardown:
I'm not seeing any dedicated RAM for sample memory and that Zynq chip doesn't have enough.
There's also no obvious wide signal paths coming out of the FPGA so where's the sample memory? Is it inside this ADC chip?
(Just wondering if the DHO800 will be hackable to 50Ms memory...)
You can see space for 2 chips above FPGA... This is extremely cheap design, and it is probably same thing as they did long time ago for some of their scopes: fast sampling only with small memory. They could use CSI to transport data between FPGA and CPU and just use RAM there. 1Mpts for 4 ch actually makes sense now.
It is cheapest 12bit scope ever made. Compromises will exist.
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Is this 1MPts already confirmed? I am not able to follow the threads that quickly. Also true for 900 series?
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Is this 1MPts already confirmed? I am not able to follow the threads that quickly. Also true for 900 series?
No, it was not confirmed, AFAIK.
DHO900 claims 10Mpts in 4 ch mode. It might have RAM chips installed.
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No, it was not confirmed, AFAIK.
DHO900 claims 10Mpts in 4 ch mode. It might have RAM chips installed.
Someone opened up a DHO924 and took photos of those 2 DRAM chips installed.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5043223/#msg5043223 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5043223/#msg5043223)
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Could it be the result of the 16b LA?
Just speculating. 1Mpts is insanely low... (cough, cough, looking at you my Agilent with 32kpts)
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If a boot time of about 1 minute on average causes a noticeable loss of productivity, you should rethink your time management in general.
Others weren't talking "about 1 minute", they were talking of 2-3 minutes and an hour to warm up.
Furthermore, it's not "about 1 minute" anymore if you're going to make a cuppa and going to the washroom.
I'm just going from personal experience: once you take you mind off the task at hand, a half hour piece of work can easily run into an hour and more as you suddenly find and start other unrelated jobs that need fulfilling. It's human nature.
Thus the longer it takes an interruption to complete, the more likely you are to go and fill the time with something else unrelated, upsetting your train of thought, and ultimately wasting time unnecessarily.
you should rethink your time management in general.
Thanks, dad.
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OTOH it could have a sleep mode. This is Android...
Maybe the FPGA, front end, etc., can't go to sleep so they'd have to leave most of it powered on, including the fan. I wouldn't want a noisy 20W device constantly running on my desk.
Exactly.
The problem is that there is no standby mode that would at least turn off the fan and the display.
I only boot my PC or smartphone in emergencies or after system updates. Then it takes 22 seconds for the PC.
Otherwise, these devices are in standby (suspend to RAM).
If I have to decide whether I want to hear the annoying fan or whether I want to wait 54 seconds for the oscilloscope to run again in a few minutes, that could be a nuisance.
Some may still be used to this from the CRT, but it doesn't have to be anymore, does it?
Admittedly, I don't have much idea about "real" oscilloscopes yet.
The Rigol would be my first and I'm trying to get my head around it. Maybe I'm worrying too much about this.
My Zeeweii runs quasi immediately, like a multimeter. Therefore I am perhaps somewhat spoiled. ;)
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Most resolutions are multiples of some smaller resolution, no surprises there.
OTOH 1280x720 doesn't match either the HDO800 or the HDO1000 built-in screens. The HDO800 is 1024x600 and the HDO1000 is 1280×800.
It looks to me more like the UI is fully scalable (which makes sense - it's an Android APP)
Yes, makes sense that it's scaleable. How the FPGA waveform mapping works is a different story.
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They could use CSI to transport data between FPGA and CPU and just use RAM there.
It's a fierce data rate.
1Mpts for 4 ch actually makes sense now.
No it doesn't. Data is data, doesn't matter if it's interleaved or not.
It is cheapest 12bit scope ever made. Compromises will exist.
Obviously.
Reducing it to only six chips will help a lot with the price.
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(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1866508;image)
Imagine how much faster the electrons could travel if they did not have to slow down to go round those bends. It is like they have deliberately crippled it. ;)
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I tried to read the 32GB SD card that was glued into place on the board, but can't see anything. I tried using DiskINternals Linux Reader but it doesn't read it.
Anyone know what it's for?
Can you post a picture of the card? Let's assume it ain't there only to consume power so, if the controller is not customized, one should be able to read it...
As always: "no coincidence, just lack of information".
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The ram chip is 256Mx16 DDR3-2133, so it should pretty well get the job done for 50MSa of the scope alone. Since the digital (MSO) lines have to be sampled alongside of the ADC data output, I assume that the additional memory is primarily for the MSO function. Moreover, virtually all DSOs work in a kind of "hickup mode" of sampling to memory, processing the data and displaying it. During the latter two steps, the sampling engine usually pauses and gets restarted only after these are completed. Of course, things may work diffenently in segmented memory mode or other "fast sampling" schemes. Here, usually the ADC and trigger engine are running all the time, but this doesn't need any sample memory worth mentioning, and sampling to memory only starts after a trigger event has been detected.
So I'ld expect, memory-wise the 50Msa should be possible on the HDO800 as well but not the MSO functionality.
The missing small stuff appears to be one power supply and some auxiliry analog sample and hold circuits (CMOS OpAmps) to supply config/threshold voltages to the MSO / AWG sections.
BTW: Rigol still uses an FRAM chip to store configuration information and other frequently changed data, here it's a MB85RC64TA (64kbit), located at the "back" of the PCB -- Nice!
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The missing small stuff appears to be one power supply and some auxiliry analog sample and hold circuits (CMOS OpAmps) to supply config/threshold voltages to the MSO / AWG sections.
There apprears to be no AWG harwdare except for a buffer driver on the output? :-//
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I tried to read the 32GB SD card that was glued into place on the board, but can't see anything. I tried using DiskINternals Linux Reader but it doesn't read it.
Anyone know what it's for?
Can you post a picture of the card? Let's assume it ain't there only to consume power so, if the controller is not customized, one should be able to read it...
Just a 32GB Lexar micro SD card. It was glued into the SD card slot. I'll try and boot without it.
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The missing small stuff appears to be one power supply and some auxiliry analog sample and hold circuits (CMOS OpAmps) to supply config/threshold voltages to the MSO / AWG sections.
There apprears to be no AWG harwdare except for a buffer driver on the output? :-//
@Azusa posted that the AWG hardware is a plug-in module?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4965322/#msg4965322 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4965322/#msg4965322)
No one has posted photos of it yet, but @souldevelop got a DHO914S today and is investigating.
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...
There apprears to be no AWG harwdare except for a buffer driver on the output? :-//
As mentioned, the AWG is a piggyback module that's to be installed on the headers next to the rear BNCs -- just like it's been the case with the DS1000Z and DS2000(A) series. There's no AWG buffer amp on the main PCB, the AWG output is routed directly from the small header to the BNC.
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I have some questions on the LA on the DHO900 series.
Are the LA channels at the expense of analogue channels on these scopes?
On the MSO1074Z, you can have
4 analogue / 0 digital
3 analogue / 8 digital
2 analogue / 16 digital
In practice, due to the limitations of the screen real estate, I found that this is typically less of a problem than it might otherwise perceived to be.
I'm also wondering if the LA sampling rate directly reflects the analogue sampling rate?
Furthermore, presumably the memory depth is shared between the analogue and digital channels. I can't remember if it was a Siglent or a Rigol, but the memory depth on the digital channels was significantly less than that available to the analogue channels.
Another issue I found with the MSO5000 was that the decode search available on the analogue channels was unavailable on the digital channels.
There is also a 1ns trigger/display delay discrepancy on the MSO5000 digital channels that I don't believe has ever been fixed.
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...
There apprears to be no AWG harwdare except for a buffer driver on the output? :-//
As mentioned, the AWG is a piggyback module that's to be installed on the headers next to the rear BNCs -- just like it's been the case with the DS1000Z and DS2000(A) series. There's no AWG buffer amp on the main PCB, the AWG output is routed directly from the small header to the BNC.
A bit of swings and roundabouts here, the DS1000Z AWG was two channel but limited to +/-2.5V, whereas the DHO900S is single channel with a 10V output range up to 10MHz (Don't know if this includes offset or not).
Edit: would've been nice to have the connector on the front panel too.
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Boot output from the Rockchip and the FPGA flash UARTS (115K 8N1)
The Rockhip is too big to include as embedded code in this post, download the TXT file.
Xilinx First Stage Boot Loader
Release 2020.2 May 21 2023-11:29:05
Devcfg driver initialized
Silicon Version 3.1
Boot mode is QSPI
Single Flash Information
FlashID=0xEF 0x40 0x18
WINBOND 128M Bits
QSPI is in single flash connection
QSPI is in 4-bit mode
QSPI Init Done
Flash Base Address: 0xFC000000
Reboot status register: 0x60400000
Multiboot Register: 0x0000C000
Image Start Address: 0x00000000
Partition Header Offset:0x00000C80
Partition Count: 3
Partition Number: 1
Header Dump
Image Word Len: 0x000D6468
Data Word Len: 0x000D6468
Partition Word Len:0x000D6468
Load Addr: 0x00000000
Exec Addr: 0x00000000
Partition Start: 0x000045D0
Partition Attr: 0x00000020
Partition Checksum Offset: 0x00000000
Section Count: 0x00000001
Checksum: 0xFFD78A86
Bitstream
In FsblHookBeforeBitstreamDload function
PCAP:StatusReg = 0x40000A30
PCAP:device ready
PCAP:Clear done
Level Shifter Value = 0xA
Devcfg Status register = 0x40000A30
PCAP:Fabric is Initialized done
PCAP register dump:
PCAP CTRL 0xF8007000: 0x4C00E07F
PCAP LOCK 0xF8007004: 0x0000001A
PCAP CONFIG 0xF8007008: 0x00000508
PCAP ISR 0xF800700C: 0x0802000B
PCAP IMR 0xF8007010: 0xFFFFFFFF
PCAP STATUS 0xF8007014: 0x00000A30
PCAP DMA SRC ADDR 0xF8007018: 0xFC011741
PCAP DMA DEST ADDR 0xF800701C: 0xFFFFFFFF
PCAP DMA SRC LEN 0xF8007020: 0x000D6468
PCAP DMA DEST LEN 0xF8007024: 0x000D6468
PCAP ROM SHADOW CTRL 0xF8007028: 0xFFFFFFFF
PCAP MBOOT 0xF800702C: 0x0000C000
PCAP SW ID 0xF8007030: 0x00000000
PCAP UNLOCK 0xF8007034: 0x757BDF0D
PCAP MCTRL 0xF8007080: 0x30800100
...................................................................................................
DMA Done !
FPGA Done !
In FsblHookAfterBitstreamDload function
Partition Number: 2
Header Dump
Image Word Len: 0x00003002
Data Word Len: 0x00003002
Partition Word Len:0x00003002
Load Addr: 0xFFFF0000
Exec Addr: 0xFFFF0000
Partition Start: 0x000DAA40
Partition Attr: 0x00000010
Partition Checksum Offset: 0x00000000
Section Count: 0x00000001
Checksum: 0xFFF3C348
Application
PCAP:StatusReg = 0x40000F30
PCAP:device ready
PCAP:Clear done
PCAP register dump:
PCAP CTRL 0xF8007000: 0x4C00E07F
PCAP LOCK 0xF8007004: 0x0000001A
PCAP CONFIG 0xF8007008: 0x00000508
PCAP ISR 0xF800700C: 0x00030004
PCAP IMR 0xF8007010: 0xFFFFFFFF
PCAP STATUS 0xF8007014: 0x50000F30
PCAP DMA SRC ADDR 0xF8007018: 0xFC36A901
PCAP DMA DEST ADDR 0xF800701C: 0xFFFF0001
PCAP DMA SRC LEN 0xF8007020: 0x00003002
PCAP DMA DEST LEN 0xF8007024: 0x00003002
PCAP ROM SHADOW CTRL 0xF8007028: 0xFFFFFFFF
PCAP MBOOT 0xF800702C: 0x0000C000
PCAP SW ID 0xF8007030: 0x00000000
PCAP UNLOCK 0xF8007034: 0x757BDF0D
PCAP MCTRL 0xF8007080: 0x30800110
DMA Done !
Handoff Address: 0xFFFF0000
In FsblHookBeforeHandoff function
SUCCESSFUL_HANDOFF
FSBL Status = 0x1
This is MultiBoot Image 3!!!
FlashID=0xEF 0x40 0x18
Recv Command Boot!!!
Target Addr: 0x00400000
Running Command Prog!!!
Try MultiBoot
Send Software Reset!!!
Xilinx First Stage Boot Loader
Release 2020.2 May 21 2023-11:29:05
Devcfg driver initialized
Silicon Version 3.1
Boot mode is QSPI
Single Flash Information
FlashID=0xEF 0x40 0x18
WINBOND 128M Bits
QSPI is in single flash connection
QSPI is in 4-bit mode
QSPI Init Done
Flash Base Address: 0xFC000000
Reboot status register: 0x60480000
Multiboot Register: 0x0000C080
Image Start Address: 0x00400000
Partition Header Offset:0x00400C80
Partition Count: 3
Partition Number: 1
Header Dump
Image Word Len: 0x000D6468
Data Word Len: 0x000D6468
Partition Word Len:0x000D6468
Load Addr: 0x00000000
Exec Addr: 0x00000000
Partition Start: 0x000045D0
Partition Attr: 0x00000020
Partition Checksum Offset: 0x00000000
Section Count: 0x00000001
Checksum: 0xFFD78A86
Bitstream
In FsblHookBeforeBitstreamDload function
PCAP:StatusReg = 0x40000A30
PCAP:device ready
PCAP:Clear done
Level Shifter Value = 0xA
Devcfg Status register = 0x40000A30
PCAP:Fabric is Initialized done
PCAP register dump:
PCAP CTRL 0xF8007000: 0x4C00E07F
PCAP LOCK 0xF8007004: 0x0000001A
PCAP CONFIG 0xF8007008: 0x00000508
PCAP ISR 0xF800700C: 0x0802000B
PCAP IMR 0xF8007010: 0xFFFFFFFF
PCAP STATUS 0xF8007014: 0x00000A30
PCAP DMA SRC ADDR 0xF8007018: 0xFC411741
PCAP DMA DEST ADDR 0xF800701C: 0xFFFFFFFF
PCAP DMA SRC LEN 0xF8007020: 0x000D6468
PCAP DMA DEST LEN 0xF8007024: 0x000D6468
PCAP ROM SHADOW CTRL 0xF8007028: 0xFFFFFFFF
PCAP MBOOT 0xF800702C: 0x0000C080
PCAP SW ID 0xF8007030: 0x00000000
PCAP UNLOCK 0xF8007034: 0x757BDF0D
PCAP MCTRL 0xF8007080: 0x30800100
...................................................................................................
DMA Done !
FPGA Done !
In FsblHookAfterBitstreamDload function
Partition Number: 2
Header Dump
Image Word Len: 0x00003002
Data Word Len: 0x00003002
Partition Word Len:0x00003002
Load Addr: 0xFFFF0000
Exec Addr: 0xFFFF0000
Partition Start: 0x000DAA40
Partition Attr: 0x00000010
Partition Checksum Offset: 0x00000000
Section Count: 0x00000001
Checksum: 0xFFF3C348
Application
PCAP:StatusReg = 0x40000F30
PCAP:device ready
PCAP:Clear done
PCAP register dump:
PCAP CTRL 0xF8007000: 0x4C00E07F
PCAP LOCK 0xF8007004: 0x0000001A
PCAP CONFIG 0xF8007008: 0x00000508
PCAP ISR 0xF800700C: 0x00030004
PCAP IMR 0xF8007010: 0xFFFFFFFF
PCAP STATUS 0xF8007014: 0x50000F30
PCAP DMA SRC ADDR 0xF8007018: 0xFC76A901
PCAP DMA DEST ADDR 0xF800701C: 0xFFFF0001
PCAP DMA SRC LEN 0xF8007020: 0x00003002
PCAP DMA DEST LEN 0xF8007024: 0x00003002
PCAP ROM SHADOW CTRL 0xF8007028: 0xFFFFFFFF
PCAP MBOOT 0xF800702C: 0x0000C080
PCAP SW ID 0xF8007030: 0x00000000
PCAP UNLOCK 0xF8007034: 0x757BDF0D
PCAP MCTRL 0xF8007080: 0x30800110
DMA Done !
Handoff Address: 0xFFFF0000
In FsblHookBeforeHandoff function
SUCCESSFUL_HANDOFF
FSBL Status = 0x1
This is MultiBoot Image 3!!!
FlashID=0xEF 0x40 0x18
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I tried to read the 32GB SD card that was glued into place on the board,
Can you post a picture of the card?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1866700;image)
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BTW: Rigol still uses an FRAM chip to store configuration information and other frequently changed data, here it's a MB85RC64TA (64kbit), located at the "back" of the PCB -- Nice!
They have to use FRAM. The current state has to be stored after almost every button press or knob twist. Flash or EEPROM would wear out in no time.
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They could use CSI to transport data between FPGA and CPU and just use RAM there.
It's a fierce data rate.
1Mpts for 4 ch actually makes sense now.
No it doesn't. Data is data, doesn't matter if it's interleaved or not.
It is cheapest 12bit scope ever made. Compromises will exist.
Obviously.
Reducing it to only six chips will help a lot with the price.
CSI is pretty fast.. Since there is no local RAM on FPGA, they have to stream to CPU...But they will trigger and do some preconditioning in FPGA.
And interleaving more channels and taking care of triggering and such is not same as simple trigger-stream for just one channel...
But as I said before, we need someone to confirm only 1MPts in all channel mode. That first.
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I purchased a DHO914S in July when the second batch of presales began in China. The firmware version was 00.01.00 (2023/07/21).
The scope worked fine until I turned on the AWG and adjusted the output frequency to somewhere above 100kHz. The output of the AWG was some random DC voltage, and the scope software crashes if you continue to increase the output frequency using the front panel knobs.
I contacted Rigol about this problem, and they reproduced the crash but not the output issue on their DHO914S running the same up-to-date firmware, so I returned the scope. They confirmed that my unit was faulty and would resend me a new one.
During my playing around I also found some more quirks:
- No hi-res acquisition mode.
- The RTC seems non-functional and all dates begin somewhere in 2013.
- The intensity graded waveform display is not as good as the MSO5000 series in my eyes.
Otherwise, I liked the scope, especially for its form factor and UI design.
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The DHO914S looks pretty good installed on the VESA100. This VESA100 shelf costs about $10~20 in China.
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Guys, I'm back, I self-calibrated DHO914S and tested the noise floor, which is probably between ......
Thanks for sharing. I am extremely interested in the HDMI output. Could you please connect the scope to an external monitor and show us how it looks?
Sorry, I saw this problem for a long time, the external connection monitor uses HDMI I don't think the image quality will be reduced, because I use the web control way to show it resolution beyond my imagination, but I don't have a very long HDMI cable now so I can only show you later.
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It was obvious to me as soon as I saw the oscilloscope that there is a capacitive glass touch sensor on top of the LCD screen same as all other oscilloscopes with touch or any tablet. The screen and capacitive glass touch sensor are two separate components.
It's not always necessary to use oversized touch screen panel. In handheld devices such as a tablet that has its whole top surface covered by glass, a wide bezel around the LCD is necessary, otherwise user can't hold the device without obscuring part of the picture by finger. So in that applications it's natural to use oversized touch screen. But when the screen is only a part of the front panel composition, the touch sensor panel can be of the same size as the LCD panel. Some touch sensitivity impairments in the edge areas can be worked around by don't placing GUI control elements there. That designs are also known. As for the oscilloscopes, it seems the oversized glass is a matter of fashion. With that trick, on the ad leaflets, the screen looks larger than it actually is. Never mind though.
8bit is just 256 so easy to fit 1:1 on any screen.
In DS/MSO1000Z series (8 bits), the LCD has 480 pixels in the Y direction. One waveform point takes 4 pixels (2x2). So only 200 ADC levels can be displayed in the drawing area, the rest 80 pixels are consumed by the top/bottom GUI elements. A waveform of pp amplitude greater than 200 levels always looks clipped. That was widely discussed here over the years. What I'm trying to say is that if similar approach is taken in the new model, one associated inconvenience is that it's not always easy for user to find out if the waveform is actually clipped because the amplitude has already reached full-scale ADC range or it's only visually clipped and there will be no clipping in the waveform data downloaded with SCPI commands. The scope does not provide related indication.
Besides, there are more interesting things, which are related to ENOB and stuff that is related to the analog circuitry. I'm hoping that will be revealed here soon. You can use 1000 bits ADC but with mismatching analog part the actual resolution will be not so great. It also affects the math function results such as FFT. In my opinion, Rigol can be differentiated by its FFT implementation. It's not so nice looking as that of the competitors, but it's fair because it does not provide user with false sense of confidence. No data or evident garbage is better than not reliable data that looks plausible. Economy-class analog part and a 12-bit ADC. An interesting combination.
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The only thing I'm not looking forward to is having the BNC connectors on the front. It takes up way more space on the bench like that. It didn't matter much in the days of huge CROs but as things get slimmer and slimmer it gets worse and worse.
The one true place for BNC connectors is along the top like Micsigs do. Down the side would be a second choice. On the front? :--
Edit: Maybe something like this will help...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1866862;image)
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Hello,
Can someone please post two wavefile in bin format with the following settings:
1 mV/div 0.05 ms/div 1 Mpts and
1 V/div 0.05 ms/div 1 Mpts.
And accompanying screenshots.
Each with an open input and full bandwidth.
It is important that 1.25 GSa/s is used so that the device cannot sugarcoat the data.
If it's not too much work, corresponding files with 20 MHz bandwidth would be very nice.
The DHO800_UserGuide_EN says:
"When three channels or all four channels are enabled (only available for four-channel models), the memory depths available include Auto, 1 kpts, 10 kpts, 100
kpts, and 1 Mpts" so 1 Mpts seems to be no error at most.
Thanks and best regards
egonotto
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If DHO802's ADC chip is the same as DHO4000 (as the chip marking claims), and DHO1000 board is exactly the same (except for frontend output traces and missing one ADC chip), then it's theoretically possible to buy DHO802 (320$) and DHO1074 (1000$), to move ADC from 802 to 1074, to change frontend traces, to solder ADC power ICs, to flash 4804 firmware, and
enjoy 4600$ DHO4804 scope just for 1320$ :-+ :popcorn: (minus price of the DHO802 sold for parts)....
And I know, it's crazy idea :-BROKE
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And I know, it's crazy idea :-BROKE
And if you program a custom FW, it can become even better that the DHO4804!!!
Now, let's land the ship and get back to work.
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why couldn't they be bothered to properly align the dots of the graticule? or use the perfectly good looking and informative graticle from the previous series? :palm:
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why couldn't they be bothered to properly align the dots of the graticule? or use the perfectly good looking and informative graticle from the previous series? :palm:
Maybe because of the benefits of having a Android resizeable screen that can have n resolutions... It can also have its drawbacks.
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why couldn't they be bothered to properly align the dots of the graticule? or use the perfectly good looking and informative graticle from the previous series? :palm:
They're obviously using OpenGL ES for the UI and the graticule, and making the typical coordinate errors for graphics programmers when applying scaling.
For example, if your graticule dots are logically a radius 1.0 dot, the display width is W units, height is H units, and origin is at the center of the screen, they will give the wrong answer as to at what coordinates the dot will be fully visible, partially visible, or fully hidden. If they even care, that is.
It took quite a few years for games graphics programmers to learn this stuff, producing graphics with edges that did not exactly line up, so I'm not surprised Android-based oscilloscope app programmers do not have a hang of it yet either. :(
-
...
They have to use FRAM. The current state has to be stored after almost every button press or knob twist. Flash or EEPROM would wear out in no time.
Yes, I agree, the "sane" EE should think like this. Yet, I remember some discussion several months ago about why certain Siglent instruments don't memorize configuration changes a certain time (a minute or so IIRC) before (hard) powering them down. It turned out that they store all the config data in flash memory since they didn't install an FRAM, and so they had to limit write access frequency.
Since the DHO800 / 900 series is Rigol's new "bottom-of-the-barrel" scope, I wasn't so sure they didn't economize the FRAM, hence I'm positively surprised to find it.
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There is no issues using regular flash for saving configuration. Your encoders have similar operating life to the flash. If you use wear leveling, your encoders and buttons will break sooner than the storage.
Flash is super cheap and configuration is tiny, you can do a lot of wear-leveling without any issues.
To me using FRAM for this sounds "insane". It is a huge overkill for no reason.
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There is no issues using regular flash for saving configuration. Your encoders have similar operating life to the flash. If you use wear leveling, your encoders and buttons will break sooner than the storage.
Flash is super cheap and configuration is tiny, you can do a lot of wear-leveling without any issues.
To me using FRAM for this sounds "insane". It is a huge overkill for no reason.
I tend to disagree given the purpose. Agree that you could do it with flash but, given the usual "plain vanilla" access methods used to store this kind of info, some zones of the flash would wear out.
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why couldn't they be bothered to properly align the dots of the graticule? or use the perfectly good looking and informative graticle from the previous series? :palm:
They're obviously using OpenGL ES for the UI and the graticule, and making the typical coordinate errors for graphics programmers when applying scaling.
For example, if your graticule dots are logically a radius 1.0 dot, the display width is W units, height is H units, and origin is at the center of the screen, they will give the wrong answer as to at what coordinates the dot will be fully visible, partially visible, or fully hidden. If they even care, that is.
It took quite a few years for games graphics programmers to learn this stuff, producing graphics with edges that did not exactly line up, so I'm not surprised Android-based oscilloscope app programmers do not have a hang of it yet either. :(
I'll take it! i guess for 400$, the graticule alignment would be the least of one's worries
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I tend to disagree given the purpose. Agree that you could do it with flash but, given the usual "plain vanilla" access methods used to store this kind of info, some zones of the flash would wear out.
Flash has way higher practical erase cycle count. The typical 10k cycles is a very conservative number, which is true for the full temperature range (-40 - +85 C) for 20-40 years retention.
Nobody would use that scope at -40 or 85 C and it would not be relevant in 20 years. A typical MCU flash at room temperature easily lasts over 100K cycles. I tried to do an experiment on some devices at room temp and I stared seeing erase/write issues as well over 1M cycles, but I suspect that retention and reliability would have suffered earlier.
And if you use 10 sectors for wear-leveling, your scope will fall apart sooner than this flash will wear out.
In any case, all modern devices store settings in the flash and it is never an issue.
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The DHO800_UserGuide_EN says:
"When three channels or all four channels are enabled (only available for four-channel models), the memory depths available include Auto, 1 kpts, 10 kpts, 100
kpts, and 1 Mpts" so 1 Mpts seems to be no error at most.
I can still faintly remember that "back then" with the DHO4204 I could not always select/use the full, expectable memory.
This also had something to do with the selected acquisition mode, either the amount of memory was limited or you could only select "Auto".
Ah yes,
With the big Rigol, there was only a vector mode for the display, no dot mode.
Is that also the case with the small ones?
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Flash has way higher practical erase cycle count. The typical 10k cycles is a very conservative number, which is true for the full temperature range (-40 - +85 C) for 20-40 years retention.
I’m not sure that ‘wear’ is necessarily the problem experienced — more that the settings are saved in a ‘file’, the OS has a cache, and sometimes people are unlucky that the flush to disk happens just when they power down (pull out the USB plug). And it next boots up in an inconsistent state. Or, maybe the disk writes have indeterminate scheduling and messes things up in other ways. They might be designing to avoid those kinds of problems?
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If it is a full Android with RW file system, then settings would be the least of my concern. Android likes to spam a ton of log files and other temporary crap. If this is not locked, like on typical phones, you should expect a huge speed degradation over 3-5 years. But this also may be fine, in 5 years there will be a new and better scope.
And it being Android, makes me pause and wait until others test drive it. I would not be surprised if there are quite a few issues in the first units.
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I’m not sure that ‘wear’ is necessarily the problem experienced — more that the settings are saved in a ‘file’, the OS has a cache, and sometimes people are unlucky that the flush to disk happens just when they power down (pull out the USB plug). And it next boots up in an inconsistent state. Or, maybe the disk writes have indeterminate scheduling and messes things up in other ways. They might be designing to avoid those kinds of problems?
No different to a power cut when an instrument does not get the chance to power down gracefully and save settings.
In that case they normally reboot to the previous boot settings.
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But as I said before, we need someone to confirm only 1MPts in all channel mode. That first.
I just tested it. 4CH or 3CH mode is only 1M maximum. 2CH is 10M maximum. 1CH is 25M.
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I can confirm that the scope does not boot when the SD card is removed. Nothing out of the serial debud port at all.
So I can only presume that the entire android OS and firmware is on the card.
But I still can't read the contents of the card...
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For Android it likely does not have standard partition table. You would need some tool that can read raw data. Under Linux it would be trivial using "dd", I'm not sure what is there for Windows.
It would likely have the bootloader code right in the first sectors.
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Are there Android aging problems with Micsig scopes? I did a search on this site and nothing popped up, yet.
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I can confirm that the scope does not boot when the SD card is removed. Nothing out of the serial debud port at all.
So I can only presume that the entire android OS and firmware is on the card.
SD card replacement recovery for bricked scopes. :P
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This tool might be some help in unpacking the image(s) from the sdcard:
- imjtool: an Android boot image extractor (https://newandroidbook.com/tools/imjtool.html)
It's been a long while since I've used it, but looks like it has been maintained (the archive has files from Jan 2023) so I think there's a good chance it'll be useful. Make a `dd` image of the sdcard to a file, then try running the tool on that file:
imjtool <filename> extract
You might need to look for an "ANDROID!" signature marker to find out if there sectors in the image that need to be skipped. See the examples given on the tool's page.
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If SD card is the only non-volatile memory in the whole scope, it is very good news. It would be possible to easily make backups and swap the cards. Plus they manage wear on their own, so this is not a concern at all.
Having card image would be great for poking around.
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Teardown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQF4UzLPpr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQF4UzLPpr0)
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If SD card is the only non-volatile memory in the whole scope, it is very good news. It would be possible to easily make backups and swap the cards. Plus they manage wear on their own, so this is not a concern at all.
Having card image would be great for poking around.
Agreed, this is great.
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This tool might be some help in unpacking the image(s) from the sdcard:
- imjtool: an Android boot image extractor (https://newandroidbook.com/tools/imjtool.html)
It's been a long while since I've used it, but looks like it has been maintained (the archive has files from Jan 2023) so I think there's a good chance it'll be useful. Make a `dd` image of the sdcard to a file, then try running the tool on that file:
imjtool <filename> extract
You might need to look for an "ANDROID!" signature marker to find out if there sectors in the image that need to be skipped. See the examples given on the tool's page.
I only run Windows.
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This looks like the approximate equivalent of "dd" with GUI for Windows https://hddguru.com/software/HDD-Raw-Copy-Tool/ I have not tried that myself, but I can see a number of positive reviews.
The claim it that "The program also supports low-level duplication of FLASH cards (SD/MMC, MemoryStick, CompactFlash, SmartMedia, XD) using a card-reader."
And imjtool is something you run on the resulting file anyway, so the dump has to happen first.
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Flash is super cheap and configuration is tiny, you can do a lot of wear-leveling without any issues.
You simply can't take that risk as a manufacturer though. The damage it could cause if they all start failing after a few years is unacceptable.
FRAM isn't that expensive.
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But as I said before, we need someone to confirm only 1MPts in all channel mode. That first.
I just tested it. 4CH or 3CH mode is only 1M maximum. 2CH is 10M maximum. 1CH is 25M.
Very strange... :o
I can't think of a single logical reason for that. It should be linear.
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The power consumption is unexpectedly high. Hopefully there is good thermal contact with that custom heatsink and it will not degrade much over time.
The OS is sure on that SD card and that is a good thing. It is incredible that they can manage all this for the price.
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Are there Android aging problems with Micsig scopes? I did a search on this site and nothing popped up, yet.
I'm not sure what an "android aging" problem is but I never heard of a Micsig dying of old age.
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You simply can't take that risk as a manufacturer though.
You are not taking a risk with wear-leveling and sticking to the 10k erase cycles. Especially if settings are stored on the SD card, where this would happen automatically.
If you are working with a plain flash, allocate 1000 sectors for the settings and you've got 10mil erase cycles.
This is done all the time, including for automotive products where manufactures really care. It is not a real issue.
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This looks like the approximate equivalent of "dd" with GUI for Windows https://hddguru.com/software/HDD-Raw-Copy-Tool/ (https://hddguru.com/software/HDD-Raw-Copy-Tool/) I have not tried that myself, but I can see a number of positive reviews.
Thanks, that worked, done!
Here is the compressed dump, 800MB. That software offered RAW or compressed, I hope compressed is fine?
https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.imgc (https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.imgc)
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Teardown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQF4UzLPpr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQF4UzLPpr0)
No battery anywhere? I didn't see one. The big brother 1000 and 4000 series have batteries in their teardown photos.
No RTC maintained across power off? I think someone else mentioned that on the forum.
Does it at least have an NTP client that will sync to network time if a network connection is available? Nice to have an in sync RTC for timestamps on images and data files saved to USB flash devices.
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Thanks, that worked, done!
Here is the compressed dump, 800MB. That software offered RAW or compressed, I hope compressed is fine?
https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.imgc (https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.imgc)
Here is basic binwalk info from the SD card you uploaded. I just started looking at it but it seems to be the OS.
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It looks like the compressed image is some format proprietary to HDD Raw Copy:
C:\temp>file RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.imgc
RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.imgc: HDD Raw Copy Tool 1.10 - HD model: Lexar microSD RDR serial: 000000008051
I'm guessing that imjtool needs a raw copy. That can be created from the compressed image using the HDD Raw Copy tool (the uncompressed image is 32 GB).
I'll try to get imgtool to read the uncompressed image later (HDD Raw Copy isn't particularly fast, even when sdcard media isn't involved). I'll post results once I get them if I haven't been Beaten to the punch by someone else.
(HDD Raw Copy is 1/3 the way to creating an uncompressed image - I started it before typing this post...)
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That tool can decompress into a raw image. And it runs under Wine just fine.
There is definitely no standard partition table. The first 32 KB of the raw image are 0, then there is a bootloader, then a huge chunk that is 0 and the main OS goes. It is not readily recognized by the imjtool.
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Thanks, that worked, done!
Here is the compressed dump, 800MB. That software offered RAW or compressed, I hope compressed is fine?
https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.imgc (https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.imgc)
Here is basic binwalk info from the SD card you uploaded. I just started looking at it but it seems to be the OS.
Thanks.
Does look like the whole she-bang
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That binwalk is from the compressed image, it is not very useful. Uncompressed binwalk readily identifies a number of EXT4 file systems and the kernel location.
And there are a number of ANDROID! bootimg partitions too. Although no, there are mentions of "ANDROID!" strings, but not the actual sections. File systems appear to be real though.
This should be highly hackable.
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No battery anywhere? I didn't see one. The big brother 1000 and 4000 series have batteries in their teardown photos.
No RTC maintained across power off? I think someone else mentioned that on the forum.
Does it at least have an NTP client that will sync to network time if a network connection is available? Nice to have an in sync RTC for timestamps on images and data files saved to USB flash devices.
Does not appear to be any way to set the time and date. Manual has no mention of it, and I can't see it in the menus.
Saving a file to USB gets the date 18/1/2013
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It looks like the compressed image is some format proprietary to HDD Raw Copy:
I'm dumping the raw copy now, hang on.
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Seeing the O.S installed on an SD card makes me cringe because SD cards are known for commonly failing. It also doesn't seem like there's an easy way to backup the SD card with its weird partitioning. Would Linux DD be able to make reliable backups of the SD card?
It further seems like this DHO800 is an upgrade to the Siglent 1104/1204x, except that this DHO800 only supports 100mhz and that its sample rate drops to 625MSa/s. I'm wondering if the frequency will be hackable to 250 MHz, as that's what the DHO924 supports (or 125mhz of the DHO914).
-
We just made the backup. You can write it into any new card using dd or that tool. It is a raw image, it does not care about partitions. SD Cards are great for this. This is the best case scenario. It would be even better if it was accessible from outside without disassembly, but realistically it would be too much to expect.
-
Raw dump of 29.5GB will take a few hours to upload to the server.
-
Do we really need it uncompressed? It sounds inefficient, especially give that decompressions is trivial.
-
We just made the backup. You can write it into any new card using dd or that tool. It is a raw image, it does not care about partitions. SD Cards are great for this. This is the best case scenario. It would be even better if it was accessible from outside without disassembly, but realistically it would be too much to expect.
If that's the case, I wonder if Rigol is doing some Apple-style bullshit to prevent recovery of the scopes. Say if my scopes SD card does infact die, can I use the SD card of someone else's scope (or a DD copy of the SD card) and place it into my scope to get it working again? If so, that would be absolutely amazing.
-
There is no evidence that they lock anything, but the only way to know is to boot the image from another scope. I see no upside for them to lock it that way, given that literally everything is in the open.
-
I used this utility to decode it earlier on OSX using this project https://github.com/Shizmob/unimgc
Binwalk is running however it is much slower against the 32GB file. This is the output from the last 10 minutes of it running and it may produce more data later. I am sure others will extract the file systems, etc... as I was just curious what the image originally contained.
DECIMAL HEXADECIMAL DESCRIPTION
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
262512 0x40170 CRC32 polynomial table, little endian
8805584 0x865CD0 CRC32 polynomial table, little endian
8849730 0x870942 Copyright string: "Copyright2008Rockchip"
8850566 0x870C86 Android bootimg, kernel size: 1634552064 bytes, kernel addr: 0x43206567, ramdisk size: 842220370 bytes, ramdisk addr: 0x69616620, product name: "ze %llu MB limit: exceeded"
9854160 0x965CD0 CRC32 polynomial table, little endian
9898306 0x970942 Copyright string: "Copyright2008Rockchip"
9899142 0x970C86 Android bootimg, kernel size: 1634552064 bytes, kernel addr: 0x43206567, ramdisk size: 842220370 bytes, ramdisk addr: 0x69616620, product name: "ze %llu MB limit: exceeded"
10902736 0xA65CD0 CRC32 polynomial table, little endian
10946882 0xA70942 Copyright string: "Copyright2008Rockchip"
10947718 0xA70C86 Android bootimg, kernel size: 1634552064 bytes, kernel addr: 0x43206567, ramdisk size: 842220370 bytes, ramdisk addr: 0x69616620, product name: "ze %llu MB limit: exceeded"
11951312 0xB65CD0 CRC32 polynomial table, little endian
11995458 0xB70942 Copyright string: "Copyright2008Rockchip"
11996294 0xB70C86 Android bootimg, kernel size: 1634552064 bytes, kernel addr: 0x43206567, ramdisk size: 842220370 bytes, ramdisk addr: 0x69616620, product name: "ze %llu MB limit: exceeded"
13166648 0xC8E838 DES PC1 table
13166704 0xC8E870 DES PC2 table
13167280 0xC8EAB0 DES SP1, little endian
13167536 0xC8EBB0 DES SP2, little endian
13170544 0xC8F770 SHA256 hash constants, little endian
13197696 0xC96180 Unix path: /lib/libtomcrypt/src/tee_ltc_provider.c
15263800 0xE8E838 DES PC1 table
15263856 0xE8E870 DES PC2 table
15264432 0xE8EAB0 DES SP1, little endian
15264688 0xE8EBB0 DES SP2, little endian
15267696 0xE8F770 SHA256 hash constants, little endian
15294848 0xE96180 Unix path: /lib/libtomcrypt/src/tee_ltc_provider.c
20973568 0x1400800 Flattened device tree, size: 79477 bytes, version: 17
21043572 0x1411974 Unix path: /dev/block/platform/fe330000.sdhci/by-name/system
21053440 0x1414000 PC bitmap, Windows 3.x format,, 404 x 89 x 32
21197824 0x1437400 PC bitmap, Windows 3.x format,, 606 x 120 x 32
37748744 0x2400008 Linux kernel ARM64 image, load offset: 0x80000, image size: 25456640 bytes, little endian, 4k page size,
37865624 0x241C898 SHA256 hash constants, little endian
51404808 0x3106008 ELF, 64-bit LSB shared object, version 1 (SYSV)
51660648 0x3144768 DES SP2, little endian
51661160 0x3144968 DES SP1, little endian
51710024 0x3150848 CRC32 polynomial table, little endian
52129704 0x31B6FA8 CRC32 polynomial table, little endian
52167112 0x31C01C8 AES S-Box
52167496 0x31C0348 AES Inverse S-Box
52484530 0x320D9B2 Boot section Start 0x422E1B37 End 0x37
52561240 0x3220558 Intel x86 or x64 microcode, sig 0xffffff80, pf_mask 0x6b6c635f, 1B02-09-28, size 116
52903074 0x3273CA2 Unix path: /var/run/rpcbind.sock
55907005 0x35512BD Unix path: /sys/kernel/debug/dri.
55907106 0x3551322 Unix path: /sys/kernel/debug/dri
55913354 0x3552B8A Unix path: /sys/kernel/debug/dri/%s/%s
55913427 0x3552BD3 Unix path: /sys/kernel/debug/dri/%s
55913527 0x3552C37 Unix path: /sys/kernel/debug/dri.
56064746 0x3577AEA Unix path: /lib/firmware/updates/4.4.126
56140246 0x358A1D6 Copyright string: "copyright 1989 Regents of the University of California."
56340608 0x35BB080 PARity archive data - file number 20549
56494413 0x35E094D Copyright string: "Copyright 2005-2007 Rodolfo Giometti <giometti@linux.it>"
56557017 0x35EFDD9 Copyright string: "Copyright(c) Pierre Ossman"
56604024 0x35FB578 Unix path: /sys/firmware/devicetree/base
56605626 0x35FBBBA Unix path: /sys/firmware/fdt': CRC check failed
56794488 0x3629D78 Neighborly text, "neighbor table overflow!s %x"
56857152 0x3639240 Neighborly text, "NeighborSolicitss"
56857169 0x3639251 Neighborly text, "NeighborAdvertisementscmp6OutMsgs"
56864380 0x363AE7C Neighborly text, "neighbor %.2x%.2x.%pM lostll_info event %d port %s master %s"
56902480 0x3644350 Neighborly text, "NeighborhHWMPactivePathTimeout"
57998112 0x374FB20 Intel x86 or x64 microcode, sig 0xffffff80, pf_mask 0x01, 1B06-09-28, size 64
58026696 0x3756AC8 Intel x86 or x64 microcode, sig 0xffffff80, pf_mask 0x01, 1B06-09-28, size 64
58052928 0x375D140 Intel x86 or x64 microcode, sig 0xffffff80, pf_mask 0x01, 1B06-09-28, size 64
58077072 0x3762F90 Intel x86 or x64 microcode, sig 0xffffff80, pf_mask 0x02, 1B06-09-28, size 64
58581560 0x37DE238 gzip compressed data, maximum compression, from Unix, last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
59495762 0x38BD552 LZMA compressed data, properties: 0x63, dictionary size: 0 bytes, uncompressed size: 512 bytes
60113887 0x39543DF Intel x86 or x64 microcode, pf_mask 0x8000, 2000-01-20, size 18882560
62914568 0x3C00008 gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
96469000 0x5C00008 gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
97482247 0x5CF7607 Uncompressed Adobe Flash SWF file, Version 76, File size (header included) 1786827929
281018368 0x10C00000 Linux EXT filesystem, blocks count: 32768, image size: 33554432, rev 2.0, ext4 filesystem data, UUID=57f8f4bc-abf4-655f-bf67-946fc0f9c0f9
415236096 0x18C00000 Linux EXT filesystem, blocks count: 524288, image size: 536870912, rev 2.0, ext4 filesystem data, UUID=da594c53-9beb-f85c-85c5-cedf76547654, volume name "system"
954212352 0x38E02000 ELF, 64-bit LSB shared object, version 1 (SYSV)
1086323712 0x40BFFC00 Linux EXT filesystem, blocks count: 524288, image size: 536870912, rev 2.0, ext4 filesystem data, UUID=da594c53-9beb-f85c-85c5-cedf76547654, volume name "system"
1623194624 0x60BFFC00 Linux EXT filesystem, blocks count: 524288, image size: 536870912, rev 2.0, ext4 filesystem data, UUID=da594c53-9beb-f85c-85c5-cedf76547654, volume name "system"
2562719744 0x98C00000 Linux EXT filesystem, blocks count: 4096, image size: 4194304, rev 2.0, ext4 filesystem data, UUID=57f8f4bc-abf4-655f-bf67-946fc0f9c0f9
2584248320 0x9A088000 Linux EXT filesystem, blocks count: 128000, image size: 131072000, rev 2.0, ext4 filesystem data, UUID=cecc2125-bd4f-6858-9215-e32ae165e165, volume name "rigol"
2717010747 0xA1F24B3B Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717013877 0xA1F25775 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717014230 0xA1F258D6 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717044467 0xA1F2CEF3 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717047477 0xA1F2DAB5 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717091287 0xA1F385D7 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717091317 0xA1F385F5 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717127222 0xA1F41236 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717130103 0xA1F41D77 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717130334 0xA1F41E5E Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717133727 0xA1F42B9F Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717133956 0xA1F42C84 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717137328 0xA1F439B0 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717137642 0xA1F43AEA Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717138533 0xA1F43E65 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717138740 0xA1F43F34 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717167134 0xA1F4AE1E Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717169518 0xA1F4B76E Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717169916 0xA1F4B8FC Zlib compressed data, compressed
2717180690 0xA1F4E312 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717183510 0xA1F4EE16 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717183743 0xA1F4EEFF Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717185470 0xA1F4F5BE JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717185500 0xA1F4F5DC TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717196900 0xA1F52264 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717200239 0xA1F52F6F Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717205427 0xA1F543B3 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717208859 0xA1F5511B Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717209104 0xA1F55210 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717212626 0xA1F55FD2 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717212869 0xA1F560C5 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717216174 0xA1F56DAE Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717216504 0xA1F56EF8 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717216534 0xA1F56F16 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717243747 0xA1F5D963 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717246393 0xA1F5E3B9 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717246745 0xA1F5E519 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717289212 0xA1F68AFC Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717291607 0xA1F69457 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717291878 0xA1F69566 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717294962 0xA1F6A172 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717295329 0xA1F6A2E1 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717338566 0xA1F74BC6 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717338596 0xA1F74BE4 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717344634 0xA1F7637A Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717348028 0xA1F770BC Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717348359 0xA1F77207 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717348389 0xA1F77225 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717349610 0xA1F776EA JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717349640 0xA1F77708 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717350773 0xA1F77B75 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717353561 0xA1F78659 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717353822 0xA1F7875E Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717358977 0xA1F79B81 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717359338 0xA1F79CEA JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717409795 0xA1F86203 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717409825 0xA1F86221 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717421881 0xA1F89139 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717424089 0xA1F899D9 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717424348 0xA1F89ADC Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717427021 0xA1F8A54D Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717427348 0xA1F8A694 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717472833 0xA1F95841 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717475715 0xA1F96383 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717476061 0xA1F964DD JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717480350 0xA1F9759E Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717484444 0xA1F9859C Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717484709 0xA1F986A5 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717488225 0xA1F99461 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717488621 0xA1F995ED Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717490437 0xA1F99D05 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717491518 0xA1F9A13E JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717537550 0xA1FA550E JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717537580 0xA1FA552C TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717543990 0xA1FA6E36 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717546083 0xA1FA7663 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717546417 0xA1FA77B1 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717546447 0xA1FA77CF TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717547690 0xA1FA7CAA JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717547720 0xA1FA7CC8 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717548863 0xA1FA813F Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717552002 0xA1FA8D82 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717552275 0xA1FA8E93 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717555275 0xA1FA9A4B Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717555595 0xA1FA9B8B JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717607570 0xA1FB6692 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717607600 0xA1FB66B0 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717614210 0xA1FB8082 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717616462 0xA1FB894E Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717616712 0xA1FB8A48 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717619953 0xA1FB96F1 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717620295 0xA1FB9847 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717661877 0xA1FC3AB5 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717669092 0xA1FC56E4 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717669435 0xA1FC583B JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717669465 0xA1FC5859 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717676185 0xA1FC7299 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717678993 0xA1FC7D91 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717679284 0xA1FC7EB4 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717679799 0xA1FC80B7 Zlib compressed data, compressed
2717681615 0xA1FC87CF JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717731469 0xA1FD4A8D JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717731499 0xA1FD4AAB TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717743543 0xA1FD79B7 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717746018 0xA1FD8362 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717746283 0xA1FD846B Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717749356 0xA1FD906C Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717749741 0xA1FD91ED JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717799008 0xA1FE5260 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717801753 0xA1FE5D19 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717802100 0xA1FE5E74 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717806337 0xA1FE6F01 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717809259 0xA1FE7A6B Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717809541 0xA1FE7B85 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717814102 0xA1FE8D56 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717814450 0xA1FE8EB2 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717868242 0xA1FF60D2 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717868272 0xA1FF60F0 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717874948 0xA1FF7B04 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717877155 0xA1FF83A3 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717877387 0xA1FF848B Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717880198 0xA1FF8F86 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717880426 0xA1FF906A Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717885348 0xA1FFA3A4 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717885681 0xA1FFA4F1 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717941340 0xA2007E5C JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717941370 0xA2007E7A TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2717947868 0xA20097DC Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717950098 0xA200A092 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717950354 0xA200A192 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717953670 0xA200AE86 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717954042 0xA200AFFA JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717996044 0xA201540C Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717998836 0xA2015EF4 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2717999160 0xA2016038 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2717999190 0xA2016056 TIFF image data, big-endian, offset of first image directory: 8
2718006083 0xA2017B43 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718008950 0xA2018676 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718009346 0xA2018802 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718064813 0xA20260AD Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718067599 0xA2026B8F Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718067943 0xA2026CE7 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718072156 0xA2027D5C Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718075105 0xA20288E1 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718075417 0xA2028A19 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718078456 0xA20295F8 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718078865 0xA2029791 Zlib compressed data, compressed
2718230519 0xA204E7F7 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718289730 0xA205CF42 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718294240 0xA205E0E0 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718296345 0xA205E919 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718296607 0xA205EA1F Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718299617 0xA205F5E1 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718299925 0xA205F715 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718337290 0xA206890A JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718373825 0xA20717C1 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718375883 0xA2071FCB Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718376117 0xA20720B5 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718379783 0xA2072F07 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718380146 0xA2073072 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718442475 0xA20823EB JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718446993 0xA2083591 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718449344 0xA2083EC0 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718449608 0xA2083FC8 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718452794 0xA2084C3A Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718453184 0xA2084DC0 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718455154 0xA2085572 Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718456122 0xA208593A Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718458858 0xA20863EA Zlib compressed data, best compression
2718459121 0xA20864F1 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718462949 0xA20873E5 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
2718465024 0xA2087C00 Linux EXT filesystem, blocks count: 128000, image size: 131072000, rev 2.0, ext4 filesystem data, UUID=cecc2125-bd4f-6858-9215-e32ae165e165, volume name "rigol"
2986900480 0xB2087C00 Linux EXT filesystem, blocks count: 128000, image size: 131072000, rev 2.0, ext4 filesystem data, UUID=cecc2125-bd4f-6858-9215-e32ae165e165, volume name "rigol"
3225419776 0xC0400000 Linux EXT filesystem, blocks count: 6956544, image size: 7123501056, rev 2.0, ext4 filesystem data, UUID=57f8f4bc-abf4-655f-bf67-946fc0f9c0f9
12220116992 0x2D8603000 OpenSSH RSA public key
12220117389 0x2D860318D OpenSSH RSA public key
12220117788 0x2D860331C OpenSSH RSA public key
12220121088 0x2D8604000 PEM DSA private key
12220125184 0x2D8605000 OpenSSH DSA public key
12220129280 0x2D8606000 PEM RSA private key
12220133376 0x2D8607000 OpenSSH RSA public key
12220137472 0x2D8608000 PEM RSA private key
12220141568 0x2D8609000 OpenSSH RSA public key
13696671907 0x33062A0A3 Unix path: /etc/ppp/pppoe.conf
13696672109 0x33062A16D Copyright string: "Copyright (C) 2000 Roaring Penguin Software Inc."
13696672633 0x33062A379 Unix path: /etc/ppp/pap-secrets
13696675617 0x33062AF21 Unix path: /etc/ppp/plugins/rp-pppoe.so
13697957635 0x330763F03 mcrypt 2.2 encrypted data, algorithm: blowfish-448, mode: CBC, keymode: 8bit
13702175159 0x330B699B7 mcrypt 2.2 encrypted data, algorithm: blowfish-448, mode: CBC, keymode: 8bit
13703321071 0x330C815EF mcrypt 2.2 encrypted data, algorithm: blowfish-448, mode: CBC, keymode: 8bit
14097054720 0x3483FFC00 Linux EXT filesystem, blocks count: 6956544, image size: 7123501056, rev 2.0, ext4 filesystem data, UUID=57f8f4bc-abf4-655f-bf67-946fc0f9c0f9
24704455357 0x5C08012BD Unix path: /dev/block/vold/disk:179,0
24704456141 0x5C08015CD Unix path: /dev/block/vold/disk:179,0
24704458246 0x5C0801E06 Unix path: /sys/bus/sdio/devices/./uevent
24704458332 0x5C0801E5C Unix path: /sys/bus/sdio/devices/../uevent
24704458489 0x5C0801EF9 Unix path: /sys/bus/usb/devices/./uevent
24704458574 0x5C0801F4E Unix path: /sys/bus/usb/devices/../uevent
24704458660 0x5C0801FA4 Unix path: /sys/bus/usb/devices/usb1/uevent
24704458748 0x5C0801FFC Unix path: /sys/bus/usb/devices/usb2/uevent
24704458836 0x5C0802054 Unix path: /sys/bus/usb/devices/1-0:1.0/uevent
24704458927 0x5C08020AF Unix path: /sys/bus/usb/devices/2-0:1.0/uevent
24704459088 0x5C0802150 Unix path: /sys/bus/pci/devices/./uevent
24704459173 0x5C08021A5 Unix path: /sys/bus/pci/devices/../uevent
24704470207 0x5C0804CBF Unix path: /sys/class/android_usb/android0/iSerial),error is(No such file or directory)
24704479093 0x5C0806F75 Unix path: /sys/class/devfreq/dmc/vop_bandwidth: No such file or directory
24704479240 0x5C0807008 Unix path: /sys/class/devfreq/dmc/vop_bandwidth: No such file or directory
24704544768 0x5C0817000 XML document, version: "1.0"
24704569344 0x5C081D000 SQLite 3.x database,, user version 110
24704582156 0x5C082020C SQLite 3.x database,, user version 110
24704606208 0x5C0826000 SQLite 3.x database,, user version 800
24704630784 0x5C082C000 XML document, version: "1.0"
24704634880 0x5C082D000 XML document, version: "1.0"
24704643072 0x5C082F000 SQLite 3.x database,, user version 800
24704667648 0x5C0835000 XML document, version: "1.0"
24704675840 0x5C0837000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30473814016 0x718618000 PNG image, 2736 x 1539, 8-bit/color RGB, non-interlaced
30473846784 0x718620000 JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
30475849728 0x718809000 SQLite 3.x database,, user version 1
30475862540 0x71880C20C SQLite 3.x database,, user version 1
30475874304 0x71880F000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30475911168 0x718818000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30477938688 0x718A07000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30480027648 0x718C05000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30480031744 0x718C06000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30482116608 0x718E03000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30484217856 0x719004000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30486302720 0x719201000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30486315008 0x719204000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30486327296 0x719207000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30488412160 0x719404000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30490501120 0x719602000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30492602368 0x719803000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30492676096 0x719815000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30494715904 0x719A07000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30494728192 0x719A0A000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30494801920 0x719A1C000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30496841728 0x719C0E000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30499004416 0x719E1E000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30500986880 0x71A002000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30503112704 0x71A209000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30505201664 0x71A407000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30505213952 0x71A40A000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30509412352 0x71A80B000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30511517696 0x71AA0D000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30511599616 0x71AA21000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30513623040 0x71AC0F000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30515752960 0x71AE17000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30517821440 0x71B010000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30519930880 0x71B213000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30521954304 0x71B401000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30521962496 0x71B403000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30524162048 0x71B61C000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30526214144 0x71B811000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30528274432 0x71BA08000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30528282624 0x71BA0A000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30530342912 0x71BC01000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30532551257 0x71BE1C259 Intel HEX data, record type: data
30534557696 0x71C006000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30536671232 0x71C20A000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30536691712 0x71C20F000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30536761344 0x71C220000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30538760192 0x71C408000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30538764288 0x71C409000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30540902400 0x71C613000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30542962688 0x71C80A000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30545051648 0x71CA08000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30547128320 0x71CC03000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30547214336 0x71CC18000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30549245952 0x71CE08000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30551334912 0x71D006000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30553444352 0x71D209000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30555516928 0x71D403000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30557634560 0x71D608000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30559772672 0x71D812000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30561800192 0x71DA01000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30563897344 0x71DC01000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30563979264 0x71DC15000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30563983360 0x71DC16000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30566019072 0x71DE07000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30566027264 0x71DE09000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30566043648 0x71DE0D000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30566047744 0x71DE0E000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30566051840 0x71DE0F000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30568112128 0x71E006000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30570192896 0x71E202000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30570209280 0x71E206000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30570283008 0x71E218000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30572294144 0x71E403000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30574379008 0x71E600000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30576529408 0x71E80D000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30576533504 0x71E80E000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30578601984 0x71EA07000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30578606080 0x71EA08000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30582767616 0x71EE00000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30582784000 0x71EE04000 XML document, version: "1.0"
30582788096 0x71EE05000 gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT), last modified: 1970-01-01 00:00:00 (null date)
30582792192 0x71EE06000 XML document, version: "1.0"
31682236480 0x760689040 LZMA compressed data, properties: 0xB6, dictionary size: -1073741824 bytes, uncompressed size: 186 bytes
31682920512 0x760730040 LZMA compressed data, properties: 0xBE, dictionary size: -1073741824 bytes, uncompressed size: 186 bytes
31683567680 0x7607CE040 LZMA compressed data, properties: 0xCF, dictionary size: -1073741824 bytes, uncompressed size: 186 bytes
-
I've worked with RK3299 devices before, and done a bit of research on their bootloader (in)security. I would be shocked if we don't have Flappy Bird running on the scope by the end of the year.
This looks like the approximate equivalent of "dd" with GUI for Windows https://hddguru.com/software/HDD-Raw-Copy-Tool/ (https://hddguru.com/software/HDD-Raw-Copy-Tool/) I have not tried that myself, but I can see a number of positive reviews.
Thanks, that worked, done!
Here is the compressed dump, 800MB. That software offered RAW or compressed, I hope compressed is fine?
https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.imgc (https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.imgc)
This tool worked for decompressing it:
https://github.com/Shizmob/unimgc (https://github.com/Shizmob/unimgc)
-
This is the output from the last 10 minutes of it running and it may produce more data later.
I got stuck in the same place. The offsets are already outside of the image. I'm not sure why it is doing that. But I would not wait for anything new to show up.
The only real file systems that are easily extracted belong to to the Android bootloader (contain animated circles logo and the broken android image among other stuff).
-
How does this compare to the ds1054z? Debating if I should sell my ds1054z and replace it with this.
-
This is the output from the last 10 minutes of it running and it may produce more data later.
I got stuck in the same place. The offsets are already outside of the image. I'm not sure why it is doing that. But I would not wait for anything new to show up.
The only real file systems that are easily extracted belong to to the Android bootloader (contain animated circles logo and the broken android image among other stuff).
Thanks for the heads up. Yeah it seems like something in the image is causing issues. Now I can let my laptop cool down a bit as I am sure someone else will have this image extracted soon.
-
Seeing the O.S installed on an SD card makes me cringe because SD cards are known for commonly failing. It also doesn't seem like there's an easy way to backup the SD card with its weird partitioning. Would Linux DD be able to make reliable backups of the SD card?
It further seems like this DHO800 is an upgrade to the Siglent 1104/1204x, except that this DHO800 only supports 100mhz and that its sample rate drops to 625MSa/s. I'm wondering if the frequency will be hackable to 250 MHz, as that's what the DHO924 supports (or 125mhz of the DHO914).
with 4 ch sampling on dho800/900 drops to 312.5 MHz.
Siglent SDS1000X-has minimum 500 Msps with 2x 1GSps ADC.
-
We just made the backup. You can write it into any new card using dd or that tool. It is a raw image, it does not care about partitions. SD Cards are great for this. This is the best case scenario. It would be even better if it was accessible from outside without disassembly, but realistically it would be too much to expect.
If that's the case, I wonder if Rigol is doing some Apple-style bullshit to prevent recovery of the scopes. Say if my scopes SD card does infact die, can I use the SD card of someone else's scope (or a DD copy of the SD card) and place it into my scope to get it working again? If so, that would be absolutely amazing.
It looks like they aren’t even using SecureBoot, so it’s likely just a matter of repacking the firmware to include new features.
-
If that's the case, I wonder if Rigol is doing some Apple-style bullshit to prevent recovery of the scopes. Say if my scopes SD card does infact die, can I use the SD card of someone else's scope (or a DD copy of the SD card) and place it into my scope to get it working again? If so, that would be absolutely amazing.
We'll find out in a few hours.
current upload progress 38%...
-
Oh, looks like the serial console is just left enabled?!
Could you please run this and share the output?
getprop
-
Thanks for the heads up. Yeah it seems like something in the image is causing issues. Now I can let my laptop cool down a bit as I am sure someone else will have this image extracted soon.
The first file systems are real. Here is contents of the "rigol" FS:
.:
total 43628
drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 .
drwxrwxrwt 33 root root 28672 Sep 5 21:35 ..
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jun 11 22:31 app
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 1156 Jun 11 22:31 build_gel.sh
drwxrwxrwx 4 root root 4096 Jan 17 2013 data
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 44594228 Jun 2 04:26 DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jun 20 03:51 driver
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jul 17 22:39 FPGA
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 lost+found
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 95 Apr 16 22:32 readme.txt
drwxrwxrwx 4 root root 4096 Jul 17 22:39 resource
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jul 18 05:05 shell
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jan 17 2013 tools
./app:
total 49580
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jun 11 22:31 .
drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 ..
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10422952 Jul 5 02:09 Launcher.apk
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 36898060 Jul 21 01:21 Sparrow.apk
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 3434013 Jul 11 06:31 Webcontrol.apk
./data:
total 248
drwxrwxrwx 4 root root 4096 Jan 17 2013 .
drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 ..
-rwxrwxrwx 1 alex alex 1876 Jan 17 2013 cal_adc.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 alex alex 348 Jan 17 2013 cal_afe_bandwidth.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 alex alex 348 Jan 17 2013 cal_afe_zero.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 alex alex 76 Jan 17 2013 cal_ddr.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 alex alex 156 Jan 17 2013 cal_lsb.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 alex alex 205084 Jan 17 2013 cal_vertical.hex
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jun 11 22:31 default
-rwxrwxrwx 1 alex alex 148 Jan 17 2013 Key.data
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jan 18 2013 probe
-rwxrwxrwx 1 alex alex 200 Jan 17 2013 vendor.bin
./data/default:
total 220
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jun 11 22:31 .
drwxrwxrwx 4 root root 4096 Jan 17 2013 ..
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 156 Jan 17 2013 cal_lsb.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 205084 Jan 17 2013 cal_vertical.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 85 Jan 17 2013 readme.txt
./data/probe:
total 8
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jan 18 2013 .
drwxrwxrwx 4 root root 4096 Jan 17 2013 ..
./driver:
total 12216
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jun 20 03:51 .
drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 ..
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 272472 Jan 17 2013 afg_gpio.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 283240 Jan 17 2013 beeper_gpio.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 268880 Jan 17 2013 dac_gpio.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 268448 Jan 17 2013 fg_m2c_gpio.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 2370224 Jan 17 2013 focaltech_ts_gaozhan.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 2228032 Jan 17 2013 focaltech_ts.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 5 Apr 16 22:32 .gitignore
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 261392 Jan 17 2013 hdcode_gpio.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 1535808 Jan 17 2013 libcomposite.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 420248 Jan 17 2013 motorcomm.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 395472 Jan 17 2013 pcie-rockchip.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 290792 Jan 17 2013 spi2afe_gpio.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 273192 Jan 17 2013 spi2pll_gpio.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 272128 Jan 17 2013 spi2pll_lxm2582_gpio.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 377792 Jan 17 2013 usb_gpib.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 632784 Jan 17 2013 usbtmc_dev.ko
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 2320960 Jan 17 2013 xdma.ko
./FPGA:
total 7104
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jul 17 22:39 .
drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 ..
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 3631368 Jan 17 2013 BOOT.bin
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 3631368 Jan 17 2013 BOOT_SelfTest.bin
./lost+found:
total 8
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 .
drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 ..
./resource:
total 54772
drwxrwxrwx 4 root root 4096 Jul 17 22:39 .
drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 ..
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Apr 16 22:32 conf
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 15379362 Jan 17 2013 DHO800_EmbeddedHelp_CN.pdf
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 12173864 Jan 17 2013 DHO800_EmbeddedHelp_EN.pdf
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 16308994 Jan 17 2013 DHO900_EmbeddedHelp_CN.pdf
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 12201427 Jan 17 2013 DHO900_EmbeddedHelp_EN.pdf
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Apr 16 22:32 window
./resource/conf:
total 16
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Apr 16 22:32 .
drwxrwxrwx 4 root root 4096 Jul 17 22:39 ..
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 1800 Jan 17 2013 init_all_clock.txt
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 111 Jan 17 2013 version.txt
./resource/window:
total 20488
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Apr 16 22:32 .
drwxrwxrwx 4 root root 4096 Jul 17 22:39 ..
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4194304 Jan 17 2013 blackmanWin_1048576.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4194304 Jan 17 2013 flatTop_1048576.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4194304 Jan 17 2013 hammingWin_1048576.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4194304 Jan 17 2013 hanning_1048576.hex
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4194304 Jan 17 2013 triangle_1048576.hex
./shell:
total 52
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jul 18 05:05 .
drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 ..
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 512 Jan 17 2013 bootApp.sh
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 659 Jan 17 2013 copy_logs_to_udisk.sh
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 8079 Jan 17 2013 do_extract.sh
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 1798 Jan 17 2013 do_update.sh
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 645 Jan 17 2013 force_update_gel.sh
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 1027 Jan 17 2013 load_pcie.sh
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 1427 Jan 17 2013 reload_fpga.sh
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 97 Jan 17 2013 restartScope.sh
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 5362 Jan 17 2013 start_rigol_app.sh
./tools:
total 6180
drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 4096 Jan 17 2013 .
drwxrwxrwx 10 root root 4096 Dec 31 1969 ..
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7744 Jan 17 2013 get_current_time
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 525296 Jan 17 2013 i2cdetect
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 524360 Jan 17 2013 k.pcie2dev
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 524360 Jan 17 2013 pcie2dev
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 11992 Jan 17 2013 phyreg_mdio
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 544168 Jan 17 2013 pmapService
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 523208 Jan 17 2013 spi2afe
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 517120 Jan 17 2013 spi2boot
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 521472 Jan 17 2013 spi2erase
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 517248 Jan 17 2013 spi2flash
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 517120 Jan 17 2013 spi2fpga
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 518312 Jan 17 2013 spi2pll
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 522408 Jan 17 2013 spi2pll_lxm2582
-rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 515728 Jan 17 2013 sspi2pll
I'm not sure if there is anything interesting here. But it looks like all the tools and FPGA images are here.
Embedded help files are just PDFs :)
"system" FS also looks like pretty generic Android stuff. It still has ringtones and alarm sounds.
-
Embedded help files are just PDFs :)
Yes, you can see that in action in my unboxing video.
-
A user has already played Genshin Impact on the scope with split-screen. It fully supports adb, so you can run any apk on it.
see:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4981042/#msg4981042 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4981042/#msg4981042)
-
There is no evidence that they lock anything, but the only way to know is to boot the image from another scope. I see no upside for them to lock it that way, given that literally everything is in the open.
Is the model and SN# embedded in the SD card ?
While it would make sense to simply recover the scope with another SD card the model and SN# need be in a separate flash in the scope.
-
Is the model and SN# embedded in the SD card ?
No idea where SN comes from. I don't see any obvious places for it. And even if recovered image is from a different SN, who cares?
And as far as recovery goes, it is obviously better to use an image from the exact same model. I'm sure they will be dumped as devices get into more hands.
The calibration data is stored on the FS as well. I'm not sure if this is all the data that is created during self calibration, or there is some factory calibration data as well.
-
Oh, looks like the serial console is just left enabled?!
Could you please run this and share the output?
getprop
Here you go!
rk3399_rigol:/ $ getprop
getprop
[UserVolumeLabel]: [RockChips]
[camera2.portability.force_api]: [1]
[crashlogd.processing.ongoing]: [0]
[crashlogd.token]: [1]
[dalvik.vm.appimageformat]: [lz4]
[dalvik.vm.boot-dex2oat-threads]: [2]
[dalvik.vm.dex2oat-Xms]: [64m]
[dalvik.vm.dex2oat-Xmx]: [512m]
[dalvik.vm.dex2oat-threads]: [2]
[dalvik.vm.heapgrowthlimit]: [192m]
[dalvik.vm.heapmaxfree]: [8m]
[dalvik.vm.heapminfree]: [512k]
[dalvik.vm.heapsize]: [512m]
[dalvik.vm.heapstartsize]: [16m]
[dalvik.vm.heaptargetutilization]: [0.75]
[dalvik.vm.image-dex2oat-Xms]: [64m]
[dalvik.vm.image-dex2oat-Xmx]: [64m]
[dalvik.vm.image-dex2oat-threads]: [2]
[dalvik.vm.isa.arm.features]: [default]
[dalvik.vm.isa.arm.variant]: [cortex-a53.a57]
[dalvik.vm.isa.arm64.features]: [default]
[dalvik.vm.isa.arm64.variant]: [cortex-a53]
[dalvik.vm.lockprof.threshold]: [500]
[dalvik.vm.stack-trace-file]: [/data/anr/traces.txt]
[dalvik.vm.usejit]: [true]
[dalvik.vm.usejitprofiles]: [true]
[debug.atrace.tags.enableflags]: [0]
[debug.force_rtl]: [0]
[debug.nfc.fw_download]: [false]
[debug.nfc.se]: [false]
[dev.bootcomplete]: [1]
[init.svc.adbd]: [running]
[init.svc.akmd]: [stopped]
[init.svc.ap_log_srv]: [stopped]
[init.svc.ap_logfs]: [stopped]
[init.svc.apk_logfs]: [running]
[init.svc.audioserver]: [running]
[init.svc.bootanim]: [stopped]
[init.svc.console]: [running]
[init.svc.crashlogd]: [running]
[init.svc.daemonssh]: [running]
[init.svc.debuggerd]: [running]
[init.svc.debuggerd64]: [running]
[init.svc.drm]: [running]
[init.svc.drmservice]: [stopped]
[init.svc.earlylogs]: [stopped]
[init.svc.gatekeeperd]: [running]
[init.svc.healthd]: [running]
[init.svc.installd]: [running]
[init.svc.keystore]: [running]
[init.svc.lmkd]: [running]
[init.svc.log-watch]: [running]
[init.svc.logd]: [running]
[init.svc.logd-reinit]: [stopped]
[init.svc.media]: [running]
[init.svc.mediacodec]: [running]
[init.svc.mediadrm]: [running]
[init.svc.mediaextractor]: [running]
[init.svc.netd]: [running]
[init.svc.perfprofd]: [running]
[init.svc.ril-daemon]: [stopped]
[init.svc.servicemanager]: [running]
[init.svc.startApp]: [stopped]
[init.svc.su_daemon]: [running]
[init.svc.surfaceflinger]: [running]
[init.svc.ueventd]: [running]
[init.svc.up_eth0]: [stopped]
[init.svc.vold]: [running]
[init.svc.zygote]: [running]
[init.svc.zygote_secondary]: [running]
[keyguard.no_require_sim]: [true]
[log.tag.WifiHAL]: [D]
[logd.logpersistd.enable]: [true]
[media.audio.slice]: [0]
[net.bt.name]: [Android]
[net.change]: [net.qtaguid_enabled]
[net.hostname]: [android-11e19a77c1de3ca5]
[net.qtaguid_enabled]: [1]
[net.tcp.default_init_rwnd]: [60]
[persist.core.enabled]: [0]
[persist.crashlogd.root]: [/data/logs]
[persist.demo.hdmirotates]: [true]
[persist.intel.logger.rot_cnt]: [20]
[persist.intel.logger.rot_size]: [5000]
[persist.internet.adb.enable]: [1]
[persist.net.ethernet.mode]: [normal]
[persist.rigol.boot.record]: [48]
[persist.rigol.fpga.boot.addr]: [0x400000]
[persist.service.apklogfs.enable]: [1]
[persist.service.aplogfs.enable]: [0]
[persist.sys.alarm.fixed]: [300000]
[persist.sys.alarm.strategy]: [fixed2]
[persist.sys.color.main]: [RGB-8bit]
[persist.sys.dalvik.vm.lib.2]: [libart.so]
[persist.sys.first_booting]: [false]
[persist.sys.framebuffer.main]: [1024x600@60]
[persist.sys.hid]: []
[persist.sys.profiler_ms]: [0]
[persist.sys.root_access]: [1]
[persist.sys.rotation.efull]: [true]
[persist.sys.strictmode.visual]: [false]
[persist.sys.timezone]: [Asia/Shanghai]
[persist.sys.ui.hw]: [true]
[persist.sys.usb.config]: [mtp,adb]
[persist.sys.webview.vmsize]: [118564800]
[persist.tegra.nvmmlite]: [1]
[pm.dexopt.ab-ota]: [speed-profile]
[pm.dexopt.bg-dexopt]: [speed-profile]
[pm.dexopt.boot]: [verify-profile]
[pm.dexopt.core-app]: [speed]
[pm.dexopt.first-boot]: [interpret-only]
[pm.dexopt.forced-dexopt]: [speed]
[pm.dexopt.install]: [interpret-only]
[pm.dexopt.nsys-library]: [speed]
[pm.dexopt.shared-apk]: [speed]
[ril.function.dataonly]: [1]
[rild.libargs]: [-d /dev/ttyACM0]
[rild.libpath]: [/system/lib/libril-rk29-dataonly.so]
[ro.adb.secure]: [0]
[ro.allow.mock.location]: [0]
[ro.audio.monitorOrientation]: [true]
[ro.baseband]: [N/A]
[ro.board.platform]: [rk3399]
[ro.boot.baseband]: [N/A]
[ro.boot.console]: [ttyFIQ0]
[ro.boot.hardware]: [rk30board]
[ro.boot.mode]: [emmc]
[ro.boot.noril]: [true]
[ro.boot.oem_unlocked]: [0]
[ro.boot.selinux]: [disabled]
[ro.bootimage.build.date]: [Wed Aug 23 11:39:22 CST 2023]
[ro.bootimage.build.date.utc]: [1692761962]
[ro.bootimage.build.fingerprint]: [Android/rk3399_rigol/rk3399_rigol:7.1.2/NHG47K/adil08231139:userdebug/dev-keys]
[ro.bootloader]: [unknown]
[ro.bootmode]: [emmc]
[ro.bt.bdaddr_path]: [/data/misc/bluetooth/bdaddr]
[ro.build.characteristics]: [tablet]
[ro.build.date]: [Wed Aug 23 11:39:22 CST 2023]
[ro.build.date.utc]: [1692761962]
[ro.build.description]: [rk3399_rigol-userdebug 7.1.2 NHG47K eng.adil.20230823.113922 dev-keys]
[ro.build.display.id]: [rk3399_rigol-userdebug 7.1.2 NHG47K eng.adil.20230823.113922 dev-keys]
[ro.build.fingerprint]: [Android/rk3399_rigol/rk3399_rigol:7.1.2/NHG47K/adil08231139:userdebug/dev-keys]
[ro.build.flavor]: [rk3399_rigol-userdebug]
[ro.build.host]: [ubuntu]
[ro.build.id]: [NHG47K]
[ro.build.product]: [rk3399_rigol]
[ro.build.tags]: [dev-keys]
[ro.build.type]: [userdebug]
[ro.build.user]: [adil]
[ro.build.version.all_codenames]: [REL]
[ro.build.version.base_os]: []
[ro.build.version.codename]: [REL]
[ro.build.version.incremental]: [eng.adil.20230823.113922]
[ro.build.version.preview_sdk]: [0]
[ro.build.version.release]: [7.1.2]
[ro.build.version.sdk]: [25]
[ro.build.version.security_patch]: [2019-10-05]
[ro.carrier]: [unknown]
[ro.com.android.dataroaming]: [true]
[ro.config.alarm_alert]: [Alarm_Classic.ogg]
[ro.config.enable.remotecontrol]: [false]
[ro.config.notification_sound]: [pixiedust.ogg]
[ro.config.ringtone]: [Ring_Synth_04.ogg]
[ro.crypto.state]: [unencrypted]
[ro.dalvik.vm.native.bridge]: [0]
[ro.debuggable]: [1]
[ro.default.size]: [100]
[ro.device_owner]: [false]
[ro.enable_boot_charger_mode]: [0]
[ro.expect.recovery_id]: [0xd433ae56b13e30da0aee31b12bb7a704e313580a000000000000000000000000]
[ro.factory.hasGPS]: [false]
[ro.factory.hasUMS]: [false]
[ro.factory.storage_suppntfs]: [true]
[ro.factory.tool]: [0]
[ro.factory.without_battery]: [false]
[ro.hardware]: [rk30board]
[ro.hwui.disable_scissor_opt]: [true]
[ro.hwui.drop_shadow_cache_size]: [6]
[ro.hwui.gradient_cache_size]: [1]
[ro.hwui.layer_cache_size]: [48]
[ro.hwui.path_cache_size]: [32]
[ro.hwui.r_buffer_cache_size]: [8]
[ro.hwui.text_large_cache_height]: [1024]
[ro.hwui.text_large_cache_width]: [2048]
[ro.hwui.text_small_cache_height]: [1024]
[ro.hwui.text_small_cache_width]: [1024]
[ro.hwui.texture_cache_flushrate]: [0.4]
[ro.hwui.texture_cache_size]: [72]
[ro.intel.logger]: [/system/vendor/bin/logcatext]
[ro.opengles.version]: [196610]
[ro.product.board]: [rk30sdk]
[ro.product.brand]: [Android]
[ro.product.cpu.abi]: [arm64-v8a]
[ro.product.cpu.abilist]: [arm64-v8a,armeabi-v7a,armeabi]
[ro.product.cpu.abilist32]: [armeabi-v7a,armeabi]
[ro.product.cpu.abilist64]: [arm64-v8a]
[ro.product.device]: [rk3399_rigol]
[ro.product.first_api_level]: [25]
[ro.product.locale]: [en-US]
[ro.product.manufacturer]: [Rigol ([url=http://www.rigol.com]www.rigol.com[/url])]
[ro.product.model]: [rk3399_rigol]
[ro.product.name]: [rk3399_rigol]
[ro.product.usbfactory]: [rockchip_usb]
[ro.radio.noril]: [true]
[ro.revision]: [0]
[ro.rigol.ota.build]: [0]
[ro.rigol.product.aliasname]: [sparrow]
[ro.rigol.system.version]: [1.1.3]
[ro.ril.ecclist]: [112,911]
[ro.rk.LowBatteryBrightness]: [true]
[ro.rk.MassStorage]: [false]
[ro.rk.bt_enable]: [true]
[ro.rk.def_brightness]: [200]
[ro.rk.flash_enable]: [true]
[ro.rk.hdmi_enable]: [true]
[ro.rk.homepage_base]: [http://www.google.com/webhp?client={CID}&source=android-home]
[ro.rk.install_non_market_apps]: [false]
[ro.rk.screenoff_time]: [60000]
[ro.rk.screenshot_enable]: [true]
[ro.rk.soc]: [rk3399]
[ro.rk.systembar.tabletUI]: [false]
[ro.rk.systembar.voiceicon]: [true]
[ro.rksdk.version]: [RK30_ANDROID7.1.2-SDK-v1.00.00]
[ro.runtime.firstboot]: [1358470234680]
[ro.safemode.disabled]: [true]
[ro.secure]: [1]
[ro.serialno]: [RW8GIY5R55]
[ro.service.default_logfs]: [apklogfs]
[ro.sf.fakerotation]: [false]
[ro.sf.hwrotation]: [0]
[ro.sf.lcd_density]: [228]
[ro.support.lossless.bitstream]: [true]
[ro.sys.sdcardfs]: [true]
[ro.target.product]: [tablet]
[ro.tether.denied]: [false]
[ro.udisk.visible]: [true]
[ro.wifi.channels]: []
[ro.zygote]: [zygote64_32]
[security.perf_harden]: [1]
[selinux.reload_policy]: [1]
[service.adb.tcp.port]: [55555]
[service.bootanim.exit]: [1]
[sf.power.control]: [8847360]
[sys.boot_completed]: [1]
[sys.bootvideo.closed]: [1]
[sys.device_locked.status]: [0]
[sys.dropbox.max_size_kb]: [4096]
[sys.dump.binder_stats.anr]: [1]
[sys.dump.binder_stats.uiwdt]: [1]
[sys.ggralloc.commit]: [commit-id:1c1bd71]
[sys.ggralloc.version]: [1.0.6]
[sys.ghwc.commit]: [commit-id:3212866]
[sys.ghwc.version]: [0.66-rk3399-MID]
[sys.gmali.fbdc_target]: [0]
[sys.gmali.version]: [r18p0-01rel0-x-6@0]
[sys.gralloc.disable_afbc]: [1]
[sys.hwc.compose_policy]: [6]
[sys.hwc.device.aux]: []
[sys.hwc.device.main]: [DSI]
[sys.hwc.device.primary]: [DSI]
[sys.logbootcomplete]: [1]
[sys.resolution.changed]: [false]
[sys.rga.version]: [v1.0-20180420]
[sys.rkadb.root]: [0]
[sys.secureboot]: [false]
[sys.serialno]: [RW8GIY5R55]
[sys.status.hidebar_enable]: [false]
[sys.sysctl.extra_free_kbytes]: [7200]
[sys.usb.config]: [mtp,adb]
[sys.usb.configfs]: [1]
[sys.usb.controller]: [fe800000.dwc3]
[sys.wallpaper.rgb565]: [0]
[testing.mediascanner.skiplist]: [/mnt/shell/emulated/Android/]
[vold.has_adoptable]: [1]
[vold.post_fs_data_done]: [1]
[wifi.interface]: [wlan0]
[wifi.supplicant_scan_interval]: [15]
[wlan.driver.status]: [unloaded]
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Raw dump of the DHO814 SD card, 30GB zipped, using HDD raw copy tool.
https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.zip (https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.zip)
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Raw dump of 29.5GB will take a few hours to upload to the server.
You could compress it with 7zip which everybody has.
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Interesting that they seem to be using PCI-e to connect to the Zynq - absolutely makes sense but seem to recall earlier Rigol's did not use this architecture. I guess with many SoCs having PCI-e built in it makes a lot of sense.
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The hard PCIe IP is basically the reason why you would choose the Z-7015 instead of the (similar priced but otherwise more capable) Z-7020, so this is no surprise. PCIe would also allow direct access the SoC memory from the Zynq.
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Interesting, because if the waveform display area is in memory shared by the SoC and the FPGA, and uses one of the RK3399's built-in Mali T860 MP4 OpenGL ES GPU's supported pixmap formats, it would be trivial for the GPU to compose the waveform area to any supported display resolution (as it seems to be doing right now). They could also be using the shared memory area for the waveform data points only, with the GPU doing the rendering of the dots/lines (but probably not the sinc interpolation), but I don't think so.
Funnily enough, I do have an Android TV gadget using the very same RK3399 SoC. The Mali T860 MP4 GPU (https://gadgetversus.com/graphics-card/arm-mali-t860-mp4-specs/) is a pretty powerful beast for such a low-power SoC. The SoC also has a powerful video decoder and encoder that can decode 10-bit H.264 at 2160p@60fps. (I consider RockChip SoCs a good choice, because Rockchip pushes the hardware-level support to vanilla Linux/Android kernels, even employing kernel developers themselves.)
Another option would have been to treat the waveform display as a camera, and use the 6 Gbit/s MIPI CSI to stream the waveform display at a suitable update rate (possibly rotated to suit the intepolation/generation better). If the displayed waveform data is stored in buffers, then a rather simple processor can generate the display one column at a time quite efficiently, somewhat similar to how first voxel-based games generated their continuous terrains.
I suspect the Zynq generates the waveform display area here.
Note that if the Zynq is fast enough to generate a much larger display area, the Mali T860 MP4 would easily be able to scale it, pixel-perfect (meaning no nearest-neighbour nonsense, I'm talking cubic interpolation scaling here, as used as the medium-high scaling method in image processing programs like Gimp and Photoshop; with FFT/DCT-based scaling being the highest quality method only occasionally used).
It would also allow all the vertical scaling to be done in the UI, simplifying the FPGA quite a bit, at the expense of much more RAM accesses.
(Each of the four channels should be their own display buffer, for maximum flexibility, though. So quite a lot of RAM to fill by the FPGA.)
I am very positively surprised at the direction these oscilloscopes are taking, because I have wondered quite a while now why they don't do exactly this.
There is a lot of room for improvement, and not being in the development of these things, I don't know exactly what the bottlenecks are (I suspect RAM access from the FPGA is a major one); but I do suspect only relatively small hardware changes/upgrades are needed to fully exploit the 12-bit ADC.
At some point, I'd love to see a lower-end 12-bit scope with no built-in display at all, designed to work with full-HD or better large displays, with a custom control board using standard USB HID connected to the main unit with only the analog and digital inputs (with touch controls only optional, not requited), and USB, Ethernet, HDMI/DisplayPort connectors.
I don't know about you, but that kind of thing – combined with a HDMI/DisplayPort switcher – would definitely suit my workspace and workflow better.
The DHO800/900 series shows it is definitely possible already. Mmm, modular scopes...
I do believe I will be getting a DHO804 or DHO814 myself, when they become available.
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Raw dump of 29.5GB will take a few hours to upload to the server.
You could compress it with 7zip which everybody has.
Linked updated to ZIP, now 650MB
https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.zip (https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.zip)
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...
No idea where SN comes from. I don't see any obvious places for it. And even if recovered image is from a different SN, who cares?
...
FRAM?? ;)
And then, there's also the Zync Flash (Winbond W25Q128JV) that may contain some instrument-specific data as well. I guess the flash card is interchangeable between (at least) scopes of the same model and configuration. Rigol probably just flashes images on blank cards, any by inserting them into the "hardware", it turns the scope into the configuration as required. Much easier and cheaper than having to flash all the data onto the hardware in-situ.
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Raw dump of 29.5GB will take a few hours to upload to the server.
You could compress it with 7zip which everybody has.
Linked updated to ZIP, now 650MB
https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.zip (https://www.eevblog.org/files/RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.zip)
466Mb with 7zip :)
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As usual the Rigol scopes include in the FRAM:
- model
- S/N
- licenses
- calibration
- etc.
So, swapping the card should not create a "cloned" scope. It would just update the scope with a new bootloader, FS, apps, etc. (the card stuff)
From memory (MSO5000 onwards), when there is a discrepancy between the public key (Key.data) and vendor.bin (scope model + S/N) I think the device should rewrite those files with the extracted replicas from the FRAM and life goes on.
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BTW, if all is inside the card, then Rigol has created a RPi style scope!!!! :-+
This should be the HW platform for those that are interested in assembling/compiling their own software solution with their own custom OS!
Interesting...
So, to all Rigol bashers, the path is here to stop complaining about their developers and start putting the effort.
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One additional thing I noticed in the EEVblog 1563 teardown video: One can machine their own alu heatsink better suited for a slim 120mm fan, say SilverStone FN123 (120x120x15mm, 12V, no PWM). I suspect the existing fan is 5V – it would've been nice if you'd checked! –, so an adjustable 5V to 7V-12V boost circuit for the fan (adjustable, so one can optimize the fan RPM, as these are voltage controlled fans) would be needed, but with this mod, it could be rather quiet. Which I like.
BTW, I suspect the wider ribbon cable is the display connector, the narrower ribbon cable the capacitive touch panel (SPI or I2C) connector, and the pins are the buttons and encoders on the front side. It would match the RK3399 SoC as well.
Dammit, Dave, now you've got me really wanting one!
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Here are the partitions in the SD card image, RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.img:
- offset=281018368,sizelimit=134217728: Ext4 Android backup/recovery partition
- offset=415236096,sizelimit=2147483648: Ext4 Android filesystem system named system (startup stuff)
- offset=2562719744,sizelimit=16777216: Ext4, empty
- offset=2584248320,sizelimit=524288000: Ext4 filesystem named rigol, contains interesting Rigol stuff
- offset=3225419776,sizelimit=28494004224: Ext4 filesystem, rest of the Android filesystem
In Linux, you can mount these via the loopback device in read-only mode using
sudo mount -o ro,loop,offset=offset,sizelimit=size RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.img directory/
Drop the ro, if you want read-write mode. To unmount,
sudo umount directory/
Any empty directory will do.
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One additional thing I noticed in the EEVblog 1563 teardown video: One can machine their own alu heatsink better suited for a slim 120mm fan, say SilverStone FN123 (120x120x15mm, 12V, no PWM). I suspect the existing fan is 5V – it would've been nice if you'd checked! –, so an adjustable 5V to 7V-12V boost circuit for the fan (adjustable, so one can optimize the fan RPM, as these are voltage controlled fans) would be needed, but with this mod, it could be rather quiet. Which I like.
According to @hubertyoung's teardown photos, the fan is a 12V FirstDO FD5010H12S:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4976278/#msg4976278 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4976278/#msg4976278)
it might be possible to find a quieter fan at the same size/rpm, 2-pin or 3-pin should work (just leave the third pin unconnected as it is just for reporting the fan speed back to the PC). Certainly there is a huge range in noise levels in PC fans and buying a quality fan from Gelid or Noctua can really improve things. I'd certainly try hacking the case off a £6 Gelid Solutions Silent 5 and bodging it in before I machined a new heatsink ;)
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Rigol probably just flashes images on blank cards, any by inserting them into the "hardware", it turns the scope into the configuration as required. Much easier and cheaper than having to flash all the data onto the hardware in-situ.
Is it not possible any more to buy a pre-programmed memory from the chip vendor? Anyway, interesting evolution. Previously, it was common to solder the memory card on PCB. Now, they're using the caged version, like on EVBs. So user can easily help yourself by melting the glue. Also, memory cards are designed with security/copy protection in mind, especially SD cards. There can be hidden/encrypted/OTP areas or partitions, etc. So it's easy to prevent the user from reading the essential parts of the content. But it's apparently not the case here. Just wonderful.
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Am I the only one who gets heebie-jeebies because of the SD card? I assume this is same for the 800/900 family. What about the 1000 family?
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Also, memory cards are designed with security/copy protection in mind, especially SD cards. There can be hidden/encrypted/OTP areas or partitions, etc. So it's easy to prevent the user from reading the essential parts of the content.
All that is possible BUT now there is already (at least) a Dave's copy in the wild (accessible by anyone). So, to prevent this copy there would have to be a HW change to the platform.
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One can machine their own alu heatsink...
for that effort, then why not go full hog, acommodate a full thickness fan and also machine vesa holes into the rear heatsink too? then just make that rear metal component also be the rear shell? for the trouble
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All that is possible BUT now there is already (at least) a Dave's copy in the wild (accessible by anyone).
I predict there will never be a shortage of copies.
So, to prevent this copy there would have to be a HW change to the platform.
Rigol took the decision to be hacker-friendly a long time ago.
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With this chipset and this ease of hacking I predict all sorts of crazy mods for these.
DOOM is probably already running, a MAME console will be in the works... I wonder if the audio out is available anywhere on the PCB.
What we need is an SD card switcher - internal/external SD card.
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Here are the partitions in the SD card image, RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.img:- offset=281018368,sizelimit=134217728: Ext4 Android backup/recovery partition
- offset=415236096,sizelimit=2147483648: Ext4 Android filesystem system named system (startup stuff)
- offset=2562719744,sizelimit=16777216: Ext4, empty
- offset=2584248320,sizelimit=524288000: Ext4 filesystem named rigol, contains interesting Rigol stuff
- offset=3225419776,sizelimit=28494004224: Ext4 filesystem, rest of the Android filesystem
In Linux, you can mount these via the loopback device in read-only mode using
sudo mount -o ro,loop,offset=offset,sizelimit=size RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.img directory/
Drop the ro, if you want read-write mode. To unmount,
sudo umount directory/
Any empty directory will do.
That's funny, didn't read the entire topic, so is this oscilloscope running Android? Which version?
I have mixed fillings about switching the OS from Linux to Android. Happens that last week I was reading about Android, and it seems Android is much murkier and less standardized than Linux.
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One can machine their own alu heatsink...
for that effort, then why not go full hog, acommodate a full thickness fan and also machine vesa holes into the rear heatsink too? then just make that rear metal component also be the rear shell? for the trouble
Because it is relatively small piece of not too thick aluminium (compared to full rear shell), needing only 2D/2.5D machining on each side, thus doable even for a hobbyist like myself with the help of the local Hacklab and their mill (or CNC mill). Full rear shell? Complicated, and much larger.
Just adding a 80mm or 120mm fan to the VESA mount may not produce as good results as one might think; the enclosure is definitely quite high impedance to the airflow, so unless you do a shroud, it may "leak" too much and produce less cooling than one might expect. Measuring the temperature of the heatsink with the standard fan would be the first thing I'd do before doing any mods, though.
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hang on a sec...
maybe we are missing a trick here. because if we can drill directly into the existing heatsink some new mounting holes, and attach a sort-a standoffs or shoulder bolts mount another block of metal (can be just basically machined to have right holes sizes).
then we loose the existing plastic rear cover. this lets to mount some fan how we like to. plus optionally can still 3d print (or manually fabricate) a shround if necessary.
that would look something like a cage design overall. if you can visualize to follow those words based description, (sorry for lack of diagram here)
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I'd certainly try hacking the case off a £6 Gelid Solutions Silent 5 and bodging it in before I machined a new heatsink ;)
I forgot to mention: I'd like to also machine new heatsink lids for Hammond diecast aluminium boxes for a few of my SBCs, as well, so the entire "lid" would be a heatsink. The idea is that the box is large enough to hold the connectors as well, so you'd only have rubber grommet passthrough holes for the cables in the intersection of the box and the heatsink-lid, and completely dust-proof, even splashproof enclosure, for the SBC. For dusty shop use, you see.
I also don't think the heatsink geometry is optimal. They want a radial airflow over the heatsink, but the large area taken by the fan reduces the overall surface area, and thus the thermal impedance is larger than necessary. Starting with a larger fan, even if it means hacking a big hole in the rear shell and 3D-printing a replacement that "bulges" outwards, rotating the 120mm fan 45 degrees still allows room for the VESA 100 mounting holes (although the fan diagonal is almost 170mm which might be too large), and a radial heatsink fin pattern not centered at the fan hub, might yield much better cooling at low RPMs.
But mostly, it's the hackability that I really like.
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That's funny, didn't read the entire topic, so is this oscilloscope running Android? Which version?
I have mixed fillings about switching the OS from Linux to Android. Happens that last week I was reading about Android, and it seems Android is much murkier and less standardized than Linux.
It's Android 7, with Linux kernel 4.4.126. You can even run Android apps on the 'scope, like the Genshin Impact game!
Android is based on Linux, but is quite different from most Linux distros (RedHat, Debian, Ubuntu, etc). You could argue that Android is more standardised (because it is controlled by Google), but also less standardised (because every phone/tablet/telecomm company adds loads of custom crap on top of vanilla Android).
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Am I the only one who gets heebie-jeebies because of the SD card? I assume this is same for the 800/900 family. What about the 1000 family?
No. You're not alone. Tapped the casing over to hold it in place...
But that is because of Raspberry Pi's on an SD. It is guaranteed to get corrupted at some time and then just stops working.
True it is easy to backup. But I suspect you'll have to refresh the card every now and then.
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Am I the only one who gets heebie-jeebies because of the SD card? I assume this is same for the 800/900 family. What about the 1000 family?
No. You're not alone. Tapped the casing over to hold it in place...
But that is because of Raspberry Pi's on an SD. It is guaranteed to get corrupted at some time and then just stops working.
True it is easy to backup. But I suspect you'll have to refresh the card every now and then.
Raspberry Pi is actually what I was thinking about when sharing my thoughts. It is not the question IF it fails, but WHEN it fails. Not sure what they really did here but still. At the moment, I am looking more at Siglent but still trying to sell my ds1074z because they will become worthless, I guess :-BROKE
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One additional thing I noticed in the EEVblog 1563 teardown video: One can machine their own alu heatsink better suited for a slim 120mm fan, say SilverStone FN123 (120x120x15mm, 12V, no PWM). I suspect the existing fan is 5V – it would've been nice if you'd checked! –, so an adjustable 5V to 7V-12V boost circuit for the fan (adjustable, so one can optimize the fan RPM, as these are voltage controlled fans) would be needed, but with this mod, it could be rather quiet. Which I like.
According to @hubertyoung's teardown photos, the fan is a 12V FirstDO FD5010H12S:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4976278/#msg4976278 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4976278/#msg4976278)
it might be possible to find a quieter fan at the same size/rpm, 2-pin or 3-pin should work (just leave the third pin unconnected as it is just for reporting the fan speed back to the PC). Certainly there is a huge range in noise levels in PC fans and buying a quality fan from Gelid or Noctua can really improve things. I'd certainly try hacking the case off a £6 Gelid Solutions Silent 5 and bodging it in before I machined a new heatsink ;)
Some similar ones here:
https://www.pchub.com/server-frameless-gpu-fan-c1225?viewmode=grid&orderby=15&pagesize=72&pagenumber=6 (https://www.pchub.com/server-frameless-gpu-fan-c1225?viewmode=grid&orderby=15&pagesize=72&pagenumber=6)
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This Delta at Digikey perhaps? I'll have to check tomorrow.
https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/delta-electronics/EFB0512HHAFAH/9974252 (https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/delta-electronics/EFB0512HHAFAH/9974252)
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No. You're not alone. Tapped the casing over to hold it in place...
But that is because of Raspberry Pi's on an SD. It is guaranteed to get corrupted at some time and then just stops working.
True it is easy to backup. But I suspect you'll have to refresh the card every now and then.
It probably depends on how much/often is written to the SD card.
Of course, this is often the case with a complete operating system with user file system (Linux / Raspberry Pi OS).
Read-only, it can probably be used "forever".
The question is what the Rigol does.
Apart from that, my Raspberry Pi runs from SSD. ;)
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...
....
Apart from that, my Raspberry Pi runs from SSD. ;)
But boots from SD card which is the biggest PI's flaw :-p
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All that is possible BUT now there is already (at least) a Dave's copy in the wild (accessible by anyone). So, to prevent this copy there would have to be a HW change to the platform.
I'm not so sure about the changes. What if private key for secure boot is already fused in every rockchip. But I agree it's very unlikely to happen because no one wants this. The strategy is entirely different. They can't compete with the technology pioneers on performance, but they can win on affordability, which is usually associated with different performance, poor usability, poor documentation and liberal amount of immortal bugs. In most cases, you can navigate through the problems but it takes time. I don't care but those on schedule are definitely not happy with that. So the goal is not to make money but to achieve dominance by slowing the customers down. They could give the toys for free but that would be looking too suspicious. That's the conspiracy.
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...
....
Apart from that, my Raspberry Pi runs from SSD. ;)
But boots from SD card which is the biggest PI's flaw :-p
No, Rpi 4 can be set up to work without an SD card, booting from SSD.
Here is a screenshot from my RPi (older).
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But boots from SD card which is the biggest PI's flaw :-p
Newer RPi can be made to boot from LAN or from USB without any SD card inserted. Didn't try, but seen that advertised.
(e.g. Boot and Install Raspberry Pi Over Internet - No SD Card Needed! (https://youtu.be/shChBhapdTo) first search result for 'booting RPi without sdcard').
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BTW, if all is inside the card, then Rigol has created a RPi style scope!!!! :-+
This should be the HW platform for those that are interested in assembling/compiling their own software solution with their own custom OS!
Interesting...
So, to all Rigol bashers, the path is here to stop complaining about their developers and start putting the effort.
Being like a RPi is huge IMO, and will allow custom applications and hacks to be developed by many folks with lesser software development skills, like ourselves. We've had some success in developing custom hardware and software solutions with the RPi by leveraging off the enormous RPi software knowledge base.
As we've mentioned before, these modern DSO/MSOs are data collection and display platforms in disguise as DSO/MSOs. These new Rigol HDs remove the disguise and revels the basic raw data data collection innards for those folks that want to tinker with such :-+
This also bodes well with the necessary high quantity usage of the custom chip-set to cover the extensive NRE cost to develop such.
Might be a very clever business plan by Rigol, initially make the huge investment in the custom chip-set applicable over a broad range of instruments. Then develop various hardware implementations with these chip-sets including one DSO that is very cost friendly (large chip-set usage) and make these easily hackable, almost as Open-Source, and allow the end users to assist in the software debug and evolution with the added benefit of newly developed applications by those very end users!!
This save's considerable present software costs in debugging and firmware updates, and places the "fixes" and "updates" directly within the hands of capable end users to "assist" in such. The "Product" is released early to generate cash flow and create a core user base to provide the "assistance"!! Just the opposite of Tier One OEMs (and Siglent) for example, where a major cost factor in the price is software maintenance/updates and fixes, and considerable effort is placed in the inital software development/refinement/debugging before releasing the end Product.
Clever business model, hope this works, it certainly did with the RPi :-+
Best,
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Because it is relatively small piece of not too thick aluminium (compared to full rear shell), needing only 2D/2.5D machining on each side, thus doable even for a hobbyist like myself with the help of the local Hacklab and their mill (or CNC mill). Full rear shell? Complicated, and much larger.
It would be much easier to just machine off a few of the fins so a larger fan can fit in the middle.
If you look at the other side it has be precisely made to exactly touch all the chips, fit around the inputs, line up the screw holes, etc.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1867633;image)
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Read-only, it can probably be used "forever".
The question is what the Rigol does.
I don't imagine it has a swap file like the RPi does.
Android will also be more optimized for running from flash memory - almost every Android device depends on it.
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Might be a very clever business plan by Rigol, initially make the huge investment in the custom chip-set applicable over a broad range of instruments. Then develop various hardware implementations with these chip-sets including one DSO that is very cost friendly (large chip-set usage) and make these easily hackable, almost as Open-Source, and allow the end users to assist in the software debug and evolution with the added benefit of newly developed applications by those very end users!!
Allowing Rigol to easily incorporate those apps in their more closed platforms. If this is the strategy, then it seems a very good idea.
OTOH, being agile in the Rigol sdcard platform will allow homebrewers to feel more confortable and migrate a full solution into those closed platforms (DHOs, 5000, 7000, 8000, etc.).
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in terms of the android, the way forwards typically would be (not always, but for certain supportable hardware)....
* make a build of lineageOS for this basic SoC, to get it to boot, with the lineageOS kernel
* try to then re-add back support any unsupported hardware (back into the build). Might require copying some pre-compiled libraries or drivers. Or compiling from "source code" that is elsewhere being published by Rigol under copyleft GPL terms
Then once that you have a (hopefully) working lineageOS build, you re-add back any scope-specific stuff too. That is unique to these Rigol over and above the general purpose IO etc...
And then for customs layer(s) ontop. You could either be installing standard android apps. And optionally something like distrobox / docker. As an extra userland layer to run (ontop) user level linux apps. Which then is in it's own linux environment. Perhaps also with some limitations due to the kernel underneath being android.
So that is generally the approach, at least when the hardware isn't so proprietary that those task(s) becomes too challenging or difficult.
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Might be a very clever business plan by Rigol, initially make the huge investment in the custom chip-set applicable over a broad range of instruments. Then develop various hardware implementations with these chip-sets including one DSO that is very cost friendly (large chip-set usage) and make these easily hackable, almost as Open-Source, and allow the end users to assist in the software debug and evolution with the added benefit of newly developed applications by those very end users!!
Allowing Rigol to easily incorporate those apps in their more closed platforms. If this is the strategy, then it seems a very good idea.
OTOH, being agile in the Rigol sdcard platform will allow homebrewers to feel more confortable and migrate a full solution into those closed platforms (DHOs, 5000, 7000, 8000, etc.).
Rigol doesn't have to worry about someone copying their hardware, they are protected by the custom chip-set, and as for the software and such they would encourage this as it just increases their hardware sales!!
All in all this reminds of the early DSO introductions which were based upon an AT intel 286 motherboard with a custom PCB module that inserted into one of the AT long slots (two edge connectors). Also reminds of our first DSO back in early 80s, ET-101A which we developed and was a Digital Scope and SA based upon the Apple II, Open Source and inserted into an Apple motherboard slot.
"Back to the Future" all over again :-+
Best
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Also reminds of our first DSO back in early 80s, ET-101A which we developed and was a Digital Scope and SA based upon the Apple II, Open Source and inserted into an Apple motherboard slot.
"Are you telling me that you built a time machine... out of a DeLorean?" :)
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But boots from SD card which is the biggest PI's flaw :-p
Newer RPi can be made to boot from LAN or from USB without any SD card inserted. Didn't try, but seen that advertised.
(e.g. Boot and Install Raspberry Pi Over Internet - No SD Card Needed! (https://youtu.be/shChBhapdTo) first search result for 'booting RPi without sdcard').
Yes, that works. My Pi4 is running with a SSD via an USB adapter, no SD card in the slot. It runs continuously, 24x7. Runs my custom KNX to HomeKit server, so big inconvenience if it's kaput. Starting from SD and then a real hard drive also works. Looks like the whole filesystem is on the SD of the Rigol scope, let's indeed hope Andriod has a clever mechanism. Directories as e.g. "lost+found" from the listings aren't read-only.
Few days ago the power adapter blew, like DevPom's YouTube channel says: "It's always a capacitor". The metal cap of the electrolytic capacitor was lifted. It still measured capacitance and no real ridiculous high ESR. The supply input of the Pi's itself never been great imho.
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If you look at the other side it has be precisely made to exactly touch all the chips, fit around the inputs, line up the screw holes, etc.
You can use a flatbed scanner to precisely measure the heatsink, and there are only a few different Z-heights, so I don't think that is a big problem.
Flattening the fan side is not a good idea, as its surface area is already quite low with thick fins.
Could anyone measure the heatsink? A rough measurement indicating how large a rectangular piece one needs to cover it or mill a new one from would be very nice. Edit: Plus the distance from the heatsink to the inner edge of the plastic rear shell, i.e. the amount of room between the shell and the heatsink?
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Also reminds of our first DSO back in early 80s, ET-101A which we developed and was a Digital Scope and SA based upon the Apple II, Open Source and inserted into an Apple motherboard slot.
"Are you telling me that you built a time machine... out of a DeLorean?" :)
Nope it was a Porsche 911 :)
Needed to go way faster than 77MPH :-+
However the darn "Flux Capacitor" kept blowing up :-[
Best,
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If you look at the other side it has be precisely made to exactly touch all the chips, fit around the inputs, line up the screw holes, etc.
You can use a flatbed scanner to precisely measure the heatsink, and there are only a few different Z-heights, so I don't think that is a big problem.
Flattening the fan side is not a good idea, as its surface area is already quite low with thick fins.
Could anyone measure the heatsink? A rough measurement indicating how large a rectangular piece one needs to cover it or mill a new one from would be very nice.
Could a hacked heatsink be 3D printed with high thermal conductivity filament if there is such ?
Best,
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Could a hacked heatsink be 3D printed with high thermal conductivity filament if there is such ?
no because those so-called conductive plastic substrate filament isn't conductive enough. in theory yes you could metal print (in a real 3d printed metal). but that option would be prohibitively expensive. typically cnc is the way to go.
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An interesting experiment would be to place a thermistor on the heatsink and read the temp when the fan is running, then unplug the fan and check the temp rise. If the rise isn't too great then one might risk operating in a cool office environment without the fan enguaged, of course the risk is having one of the custom chips degrade/die due to overheating. Maybe Dave is listening ::)
Best,
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I still think a large, external fan is the best option. There has to be a low profile 92mm fan out there that will fit the VESA screw holes via a 3D printed adapter.
eg. This: https://www.scytheus.com/kaze-flex-92-silm (https://www.scytheus.com/kaze-flex-92-silm)
Need to measure the available height though.
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U-boot can be used to boot RK3399. RK3399 itself has an eMMC (5.0 and 5.1) interface that supports HS400, HS200, DDR50, and some older "legacy" modes, and two SD/MMC/SDIO interfaces (SD3.0, MMC 4.51). As these are built-in to the RK3399 SoC, USB, GbE, HDMI, and mass storage support is already in vanilla kernels.
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An interesting experiment would be to place a thermistor on the heatsink and read the temp when the fan is running, then unplug the fan and check the temp rise. If the rise isn't too great then one might risk operating in a cool office environment without the fan enguaged, of course the risk is having one of the custom chips degrade/die due to overheating. Maybe Dave is listening ::)
The risk of hot-spots is close to NULL with that heat sink.
You could measure the temperature anywhere on it to control a fan via a small uC.
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On the spot idea, I wonder why nobody is using a tall chimney-pipe as a passive self-ventilation system.
Should work and since no fan, should be completely silent. Except maybe for once a year, when from the chimney-cooler might come noises of "Ho, Ho, Ho!". ;D
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I still think a large, external fan is the best option. There has to be a low profile 92mm fan out there that will fit the VESA screw holes via a 3D printed adapter.
eg. This: https://www.scytheus.com/kaze-flex-92-silm (https://www.scytheus.com/kaze-flex-92-silm)
Need to measure the available height though.
If you don't mind drilling new holes to your fan, you can use the VESA 100 holes to mount a 120x120x15mm fan, for example Noctua NF-A12x15 (FLX or PWM); no need to rotate the fan by 45 degrees either. The holes partially overlap with the existing ones; the 120mm fan mounting holes are 105mm spaced, and VESA 100 are 100mm spaced (so the new hole centers are 3.5mm towards the fan hub from the centers of the existing holes).
Noctua NF-A9x14 fits within the VESA 100 mounting holes (aligned, i.e. with the mounting holes at the fan corners).
The question is, how much room is there between the top of the heatsink and the plastic shell?
A hole in the plastic shell may be necessary, to have sufficient shroud around the fan output inside the scope, to ensure good airflow along the heatsink (and not escaping out between the fan and the heatsink). I suspect the required fan speeds to cool this thing are surprisingly low with a much larger fan.
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A hole in the plastic shell may be necessary, to have sufficient shroud around the fan output inside the scope, to ensure good airflow along the heatsink (and not escaping out between the fan and the heatsink). I suspect the required fan speeds to cool this thing are surprisingly low with a much larger fan.
With a big fan I'd probably try blowing air in. Let it go out the top/bottom over the heatsink.
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The working environment is rated to 50 degrees C so there's a bit of margin.
The VESA mount could also be used to attach a battery pack.
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An interesting experiment would be to place a thermistor on the heatsink and read the temp when the fan is running, then unplug the fan and check the temp rise. If the rise isn't too great then one might risk operating in a cool office environment without the fan enguaged, of course the risk is having one of the custom chips degrade/die due to overheating. Maybe Dave is listening ::)
@Azusa pointed a thermal camera at the scope, and the rear temperatures were 31°C-59°C (88°F-138°F), but that was after an hour of running quite a demanding game. I'd guess that works the system way harder than its normal job!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4980634/?topicseen#msg4980634 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4980634/?topicseen#msg4980634)
Quite possibly it only needs the fan running in a very hot lab / server room environment (or outdoors) ?
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I wonder how many windows can be added...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1867729;image)
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Quite possibly it only needs the fan running in a very hot lab / server room environment (or outdoors) ?
With that heatsink? Very probably.
I don't remember who it was but there was a user here who did a fan swap on his DS1054Z and noted it was now "completely silent". Six months later he found out he hadn't attached the power cable to the fan.
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rk3399_rigol:/ $ getprop
getprop
...
[persist.sys.usb.config]: [mtp,adb]
...
[ro.build.type]: [userdebug]
...
[ro.debuggable]: [1]
...
[sys.usb.config]: [mtp,adb]
...
Didn't notice any comments on this getprop output. A debuggable userdebug build with adb enabled on USB means you should be able to do nearly anything to the system pretty easily.
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I don't remember who it was but there was a user here who did a fan swap on his DS1054Z and noted it was now "completely silent". Six months later he found out he hadn't attached the power cable to the fan.
Easiest silent running hack ever!
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It is very interesting with which oscilloscope Siglent will answer this challenge. And when.
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SDS1000 X HD and 1204X HD? No idea when or prices.
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An interesting experiment would be to place a thermistor on the heatsink and read the temp when the fan is running, then unplug the fan and check the temp rise. If the rise isn't too great then one might risk operating in a cool office environment without the fan enguaged, of course the risk is having one of the custom chips degrade/die due to overheating.
Dave measured the power consumption and it is fairly high. Also there is likely almost no variation in power consumption so a fixed speed fan makes a lot of sense as there will be no advantage to have a temperature controlled fan.
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An interesting experiment would be to place a thermistor on the heatsink and read the temp when the fan is running, then unplug the fan and check the temp rise. If the rise isn't too great then one might risk operating in a cool office environment without the fan enguaged, of course the risk is having one of the custom chips degrade/die due to overheating.
Dave measured the power consumption and it is fairly high. Also there is likely almost no variation in power consumption so a fixed speed fan makes a lot of sense as there will be no advantage to have a temperature controlled fan.
Not thinking of a variable speed here, just On or Off. If the heatsink temperature is below a specific acceptable point then the fan is Off, if above then the fan is On. Of course what that "acceptable" temperature is unknown now. Most ICs are rated for maximum junction temperature of 125C, these custom chip-sets may be lower, and we don't known the chip-set junctions to heatsink thermal impedance nor power dissipation, so other unknowns. Some thermal analysis with some knowns might shed some light on this and IF one could RELIABILITY operate without the fan engaged.
Earlier was a reference to a measured heatsink temperature of ~60C in an office environment, so ~35C rise above ambient. Was also earlier stated that the maximum instrument ambient temp is 50C, so using a simple "linear" interpolation this would imply a heatsink temperature of ~85C under a 50C ambient. So if the heatsink doesn't rise above ~85C without the fan engaged, then the DSO should be OK. Of course this assumes a lot, including the "linear" relationship and benefit of the airflow to other components not serviced by the massive heatsink, and so on. Plus it's well known that higher temperatures cause component lifespans to reduce, so operating with the heatsink at a higher temperature has its' drawbacks.
We had considered this concept, or installing another lower noise fan in our Hioki IM3536, this instruments fan noise is obnoxious. However we decided against such due to the effect on instrument calibration, and this is a high precision instrument which the DSO is not, so affecting the DSO calibration wouldn't be as much of a concern for us.
Best,
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Six months later he found out he hadn't attached the power cable to the fan.
This doesn't mean that it doesn't matter if a fan is active or not.
He can also have unknowingly operated the device outside of the specifications, thus aging it faster.
Rarely is something done without reason, especially not in a cheap device, if a fan was not necessary, it would be omitted for cost reasons.
For example, I had replaced the fan in my SDS2504X-HD because the original one had a defect.
Now an even quieter fan from Noctua is installed and that does not really make me happy.
He is also weaker than the original.
That does not mean anything if reserves were planned in the thermal design, but I do not know that.
Most ICs are rated for maximum junction temperature of 125C
That´s mostly MIL-Spec, common ICs are rated for 85°C.
In both cases, this does not mean that they remain in the specifications(keyword derating) up to these temperatures, they just do not go defective until then.
I may be overly cautious, but in general I would not underestimate the issue.
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[ro.build.type]: [userdebug] => adb root should be available.
Android 7 might not have Android verified boot enabled. So remounting of system & vendor partition would be easy. Even if Android verified boot is on, on an userdebug image adb disable-verity, adb reboot, adb remount should be possible.
The console output of
su
cat /proc/cmdline
would be of interest (UART logs might be truncated on the command line entry).
Additionally
su
cat /proc/mounts
would be nice to know.
Rigol also seems to go the easy route:
androidboot.selinux=disabled
[sys.secureboot]: [false]
SecureBootEn = 0, SecureBootLock = 0
Secure Boot state: 0
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I had replaced the fan in my SDS2504X-HD because the original one had a defect.
Now an even quieter fan from Noctua is installed and that does not really make me happy.
Exactly what ?
SDS2000X HD fans are very low noise.
Do you still have the old one to send to Siglent for a warranty claim ?
They want to know when these problems arise.
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Here are the partitions in the SD card image, RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.img:- offset=281018368,sizelimit=134217728: Ext4 Android backup/recovery partition
- offset=415236096,sizelimit=2147483648: Ext4 Android filesystem system named system (startup stuff)
- offset=2562719744,sizelimit=16777216: Ext4, empty
- offset=2584248320,sizelimit=524288000: Ext4 filesystem named rigol, contains interesting Rigol stuff
- offset=3225419776,sizelimit=28494004224: Ext4 filesystem, rest of the Android filesystem
Thanks for figuring out the offsets. Some more details on the partitions:
offset=415236096,sizelimit=2147483648: => /system partition which contains the Android framework (="operatingsystem" without kernel)
offset=2584248320,sizelimit=524288000: => Rigol proprietary partition. DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL is a tar.gz file which seems to contain the parts of that partition. There seems also some calibration data stored in the data folder. There is also a 148 byte Key.data file.
[attach=1]
app/Sparrow.apk contains libscope-auklet.so which has quite some interesting strings embedded.
offset=3225419776,sizelimit=28494004224: => userdata partition. This is where on an Android system all user generated data is stored. logs/tools_log contains there some interesting logfiles.
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It is very interesting with which oscilloscope Siglent will answer this challenge. And when.
I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.
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Dave measured the power consumption and it is fairly high. Also there is likely almost no variation in power consumption so a fixed speed fan makes a lot of sense as there will be no advantage to have a temperature controlled fan.
Of course there is. In winter, or if I have the aircon on? Maybe no need for a fan!
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Yes will be interesting to see what Siglent does. :popcorn:
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Here are the partitions in the SD card image, RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.img:
If I might ask: what tools/techniques did you use to figure these offsets?[/list]
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It is very interesting with which oscilloscope Siglent will answer this challenge. And when.
I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.
I tend to agree.
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I still think a large, external fan is the best option. There has to be a low profile 92mm fan out there that will fit the VESA screw holes via a 3D printed adapter.
eg. This: https://www.scytheus.com/kaze-flex-92-silm (https://www.scytheus.com/kaze-flex-92-silm)
Need to measure the available height though.
There is 3.7mm from the top fins of the heatsink to the rear case.
Fins are 7.4mm deep.
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If I might ask: what tools/techniques did you use to figure these offsets?
binwalk tool previously mentioned/used in this thread.
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Thanks. I ran binwalk but m not familiar with the tool (and I'll admit, I was too lazy at the time to read docs or other info). I found the output confusing, for example several volumes identified as "system" for example.
I guess it's just a matter of buckling down and reading up on it.
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Those extra volumes are just junk FSes with the same label. The way to find out is to mount each of them and see what is in them.
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Most ICs are rated for maximum junction temperature of 125C
That´s mostly MIL-Spec, common ICs are rated for 85°C.
In both cases, this does not mean that they remain in the specifications(keyword derating) up to these temperatures, they just do not go defective until then.
I may be overly cautious, but in general I would not underestimate the issue.
Note we indicated Junction Temperature, the only temperature that really matters as this is what the semiconductor experiences, not the case or ambient temperature. If you check many IC sources they are rated above 85C and these are commercial chips, not all military. Check TI and AD ADCs, many are rated higher than 85C, with some junction temperatures ratings at 150C max. The automotive range includes 125C case temperature as well.
Agree that operating at a higher chip junction temperature may reduce the chip life, or degrade performance, but experience has shown that the classic old school Mil Standard (38510 ?) estimates of semiconductor life based upon junction temperature is way over rated (think there has been considerable evidence of this, and maybe a better model has been developed).
Best
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Dave measured the power consumption and it is fairly high. Also there is likely almost no variation in power consumption so a fixed speed fan makes a lot of sense as there will be no advantage to have a temperature controlled fan.
Of course there is. In winter, or if I have the aircon on? Maybe no need for a fan!
Exactly why we suggested measuring the heat sink temp with and without fan ON in a "office environment". Seems one might be able to operate without the fan if the heatsink temp doesn't rise too much. Maybe Dave is listening ::)
Best
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Am I the only one who gets heebie-jeebies because of the SD card? I assume this is same for the 800/900 family. What about the 1000 family?
Its a name brand SD card (Lexar 633x 32GB), running android, so no, not if its properly managed.
The main downside is less data lanes, a high end microSD might be 100-300MB/s but a good eMMC can be 400MB/s.
You can watch the HDO1000/4000 teardown (http://youtube.com/watch?v=W1Jl0rMRGSg)video and see there is no SD card in that one.
Its using Foresee FEMDNN008G-08A39 (https://datasheet.lcsc.com/lcsc/2006081033_FORESEE-FEMDNN008G-08A39_C601079.pdf) eMMC ~$3. It does have power loss protection.
I've been burned by failed NAND many times, although not eMMC, yet it clearly happens (https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/tesla-mcu1-emmc-failure-explained/).
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It is very interesting with which oscilloscope Siglent will answer this challenge. And when.
I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.
I tend to agree.
Same here!! Taking on an ASIC development involving a custom relative High Speed and Resolution ADC is a huge undertaking, both risk and financial-wise. Think we know where the 12 bit ADC design came from, and Rigol hedged their bets by licensing this IP, rather than attempting to "roll their own" (maybe learned something from 1st custom ADC go around), altho not going to discuss such.
Best,
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Not thinking of a variable speed here, just On or Off.
Of course there is. In winter, or if I have the aircon on? Maybe no need for a fan!
The power consumption is very high (surprisingly high) about 2x that of the DS1054z
A fan is just needed no matter the ambient temperature.
Yes you can have a fan working hard then turn OFF for maybe a minute or two but it is just better to have a constant lower speed fan contentiously working then high speed then off for small amounts of time.
It is not like a laptop that uses maybe same 35W under full load but only 5W at idle where fan can be OFF as long as you just read a forum page.
The oscilloscope is likely-maybe just a range of 30 to 35W so there is no very low idle power to worth considering a fan speed control (including ON/OFF).
It will also be more detrimental for longevity to have tens of thermal cycles per hour where say you have a 20C delta on the heat sink.
So due to the basically constant 35W consumption of this oscilloscope the fixed speed fan is the best solution and the reason they chose it.
If you want a lower noise unit then adding a larger external fan (also fixed speed) is the only reasonable solution.
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It is very interesting with which oscilloscope Siglent will answer this challenge. And when.
I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.
I tend to agree.
They do develop some of their own chips..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg4642900/#msg4642900 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg4642900/#msg4642900)
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I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.
I tend to agree.
Same here!! Taking on an ASIC development involving a custom relative High Speed and Resolution ADC is a huge undertaking, both risk and financial-wise.
It took Rigol many years and two or three iterations to get it right, eg. The MSO5000 series was ASIC-based but quite noisy.
I could be wrong but it seems they started work on the ASIC after the DS1054Z was launched. That's how long it took them.
Think we know where the 12 bit ADC design came from, and Rigol hedged their bets by licensing this IP
Where? Surely they don't need to license an ADC - it's a well-known tech.
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So due to the basically constant 35W consumption of this oscilloscope
Yeah, I guess that is quite high...
There must be a lot of convection going on as well. That little fan isn't going to move that much air.
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Where? Surely they don't need to license an ADC - it's a well-known tech.
It is not as simple as tinkering with an Arduino...
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Here are the partitions in the SD card image, RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.img:
If I might ask: what tools/techniques did you use to figure these offsets?
In this particular case, I didn't use binwalk (https://github.com/ReFirmLabs/binwalk); I used testdisk (https://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk) (but note that testdisk reports the offsets and sizes in sectors, 512 bytes in this case).
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Am I missing something or wrong? - why does it have such high noise for a 12-bit A/D converter - about 200 microvolts? the HDO series that came out last year seemed to have about 20 microvolts?
Where do you get those numbers?
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Here are the partitions in the SD card image, RigolDHO800-SDcard-dump.img:
If I might ask: what tools/techniques did you use to figure these offsets?
In this particular case, I didn't use binwalk (https://github.com/ReFirmLabs/binwalk); I used testdisk (https://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk) (but note that testdisk reports the offsets and sizes in sectors, 512 bytes in this case).
partx is another useful linux command that can be used to automatically identify and create loop devices of partitions that it detects from a disk image file.
E.g.
partx -a -v ./disk_image.img
Show the created loop devices:
losetup -a
Now you can mount each loop device to directories you have created:
mount /dev/loop0p1 partition_1
mount /dev/loop0p2 partition_2
etc.
The devices can also be on loop1 etc. if loop0 is taken.
Afterwards umount the directories and then unset the loop devices with:
partx -d -v /dev/loop0
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The poor noise performance without the termination resistors can be explained by the thermal noise of the 1 meg input resistance.
The 18uVacrms noise performance of DHO4000 series is measured with 50 ohm inputs. With external 50ohm termination resistors installed on my DHO914S, I measured noise levels of around 21uVacrms (200uV/div) for all four channels, which is slightly worse than the DHO4000 series under the same configuration.
That's still much better than the ~175uVacrms noise level of the MSO5000 series.
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All noise measurements should be done at 1mV/div. 200uV and 500uV/div are software magnifications. Front end does only 1mV/div in hardware, unlike, for instance, SD2000X HD that have actual 500uV/div range.
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Hello,
I have a suspicion that the Rigol 12 Bit Scopes are processing the data if possible. This can be seen from the fact that the wave files do not contain 12 but already 16 bit values.
That's why you should make sure that the highest sampling rate is forced when measuring, so that hopefully you get the raw data.
Unfortunately, my request for data has not yet been successful:
"Can someone please post two wavefile in bin format with the following settings:
1 mV/div 0.05 ms/div 1 Mpts and
1 V/div 0.05 ms/div 1 Mpts.
And accompanying screenshots.
Each with an open input and full bandwidth.
It is important that 1.25 GSa/s is used so that the device cannot sugarcoat the data.
If it's not too much work, corresponding files with 20 MHz bandwidth would be very nice."
Best regards
egonotto
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unlike, for instance, SD2000X HD that have actual 500uV/div range.
...and only costs 8x as much.
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unlike, for instance, SD2000X HD that have actual 500uV/div range.
...and only costs 8x as much.
It cost 8x as much for 5X bandwidth, larger screen and lot more..
SDS1000X-E has it too.. If you want same price range.
I was explaining not comparing... But hey ....
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I somehow don't know what to think about it. It is a nice little scope. The 800 series is attractive but 1MPts/4ch is very low. I am wondering how practical the logic analyzer on the 900 series is. What I want from my next scope is the bode plot analyzer function. I wish the 1000 series had the AWG. I was considering Siglent 2k series (8bit) as it seems more refined. But this is a different price range... I am simply confused on what is going to be my 3rd scope :-DD
I can imagine that I take one of these ultra-flat portable monitors, USB mouse and mount that little guy on the desk where it makes sense...
<end of thinking aloud>
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I somehow don't know what to think about it. It is a nice little scope... I wish the 1000 series had the AWG... I am simply confused on what is going to be my 3rd scope
Well it's a fair point that you are bringing up here. And I believe the correct answer should be: well, this puts you into a category of user(s) to wait for them to add missing features to 1000 series. For example, the AWG and mixed signal. So then an equivalent of what 900 is adding to the 800. But just up a tier.
However Rigol hasn't announced such products yet. I am just guessing based on "well it might be in development" and "well, it would entirely make a lot of sense".
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I know this is one of those silly questions.... but I'll try anyway. :palm:
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
The DHO814 has somewhat better specs, but specs aren't everything, otherwise I might buy Hantek. ;)
If you are not so much into touchscreens, which is the better buy?
Is it too early to tell?
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I know this is one of those silly questions.... but I'll try anyway. :palm:
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
If you are not so much into touchscreens, which is the better buy?
Dave's opinion: "8-bit is dead"
PS: I wasn't into touch screens until I owned one. Now the idea of using a stupid twisty knob for navigation seems ridiculous to me.
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partx is another useful linux command that can be used to automatically identify and create loop devices of partitions that it detects from a disk image file.
Agreed. There are dozens of tools in Linux and BSD to examine these things. The first one I tend to do is strings (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/strings.1.html) file | less, to see if suspicious strings do pop up; both in images and executables. (Actually, no, the very first one is always file (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/file.1.html) file to see if the file fingerprint is recognized by the standard magic (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/magic.4.html) database, but that should be obvious.)
Note that the mount (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/mount.8.html) command can create (and then automatically delete) the loopback device, when using the -o loop option like I did. For details, see man 8 mount (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/mount.8.html#LOOP-DEVICE_SUPPORT), under Loop-device support heading, near the end of the man page.
For those who are not aware, loop (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/loop.4.html) devices are provided by the kernel in Linux and BSDs, which allow an user (with sufficient privileges) to synthesize a block device from an ordinary file. The block device will support the same operations as all mass storage devices –– all block devices! ––, so one can easily mount a filesystem, or even a whole partition table and some/all of its filesystems.
The only trick is that if you want to create a new filesystem image, you should use e.g. dd if=/dev/zero of=file bs=blocksize count=blockcount to ensure storage is allocated for each byte of the image. Most Linux and BSD filesystems support sparse files, where sections of the file may not exist, and simply read all zeroes; this way, a gigabyte-size file with just one nonzero byte at the end (or anywhere else) is usually just one allocation block long. The dd command uses the zero character device to fill the file with binary zeroes.
Like I said, mount can do the loopback device setup and teardown automatically, or you can use the losetup (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/losetup.8.html) command, or even do it yourself (see man 4 loop (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/loop.4.html)). Other than the offset (if not at the beginning of the file) and possibly size (if not the complete file), no other details need to be specified, so the usage is very straightforward. While I like to mount such files (images) read-only via -o ro, it is perfectly okay to mount them read-write, so that any changes will be reflected in the original file; but do remember to properly unmount the file/image, as the kernel may cache changes and only flush them to the underlying file at unmount time. (The unmount command is, unsurprisingly, umount (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/umount.8.html), and you can supply it with either the device, or the directory on top of which the media is mounted.)
For the SD card Dave dumped, it really looks to me like a bog-standard Android system image.
One that has not been optimized, and is, uh, quite "vanilla", indicating that with some systems integration work, the boot-up time could be shortened significantly, for example. I wonder how receptive Rigol would be towards such suggestions?
(It really depends on whether they used some external team to cobble something together for them, or whether they set up their own team that is still getting up to speed on how to optimize Android for appliance use. I'm really hoping for the latter, because that means future updates could be really nice for users, also showing how to leverage their chosen hacker-friendly stance for actually creating a better end product. Time will tell.)
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I know this is one of those silly questions.... but I'll try anyway. :palm:
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
The DHO814 has somewhat better specs, but specs aren't everything, otherwise I might buy Hantek. ;)
If you are not so much into touchscreens, which is the better buy?
Is it too early to tell?
DHO814 has somewhat better specs in some things... I would wait a bit to see if 800 is good for you . 1MPoint with 4 ch makes it worse than DS1000Z for some uses...
Maybe 900 is lowest model that is actually better than DS1000Z in every respect. SDS1000X-E has Bode plot, better minimum sampling rate and some other things ..
It is not so easy to proclaim clear winner. It depends of what you do. Try to make a list of what is important to you to try and clarify it...
Touch screen is great. Small screen makes it a bit worse but still useful.
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...
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
...
And he would buy the € 386.10 SDS1104X-E and hack it into an SDS1204X-E
Decisions... decisions...
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It is very interesting with which oscilloscope Siglent will answer this challenge. And when.
I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.
I tend to agree.
They do develop some of their own chips..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg4642900/#msg4642900 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg4642900/#msg4642900)
Yes, this is an impressive front end design, likely in a SiGe BiCMOS process. Siglent may have had some "help" in designing this chip tho ;)
However, this is a different level of effort and cost than pulling off a moderately high speed/resolution ADC like we are discussing.
Best,
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...
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
...
And he would buy the € 386.10 SDS1104X-E and hack it into an SDS1204X-E
The DHO804 might be hackable to 250Mhz. Time will tell...
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All noise measurements should be done at 1mV/div. 200uV and 500uV/div are software magnifications. Front end does only 1mV/div in hardware, unlike, for instance, SD2000X HD that have actual 500uV/div range.
Dave has obtained that value (18 uV) with those settings: 1mV/div, 1ms, BW filter, 50ohm input. Without 50 ohm the noise increase at 42-43. With HDO1000 I have obtained the same values putting a 50 ohm terminator on input of the scope.
I am curious what AC RMS value you obtain with SD2000X HD with the same parameters.
Maybe Tautech can post AC RMS value for SDS 1000X HD with the same parameters.
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For the SD card Dave dumped, it really looks to me like a bog-standard Android system image.
One that has not been optimized, and is, uh, quite "vanilla", indicating that with some systems integration work, the boot-up time could be shortened significantly, for example. I wonder how receptive Rigol would be towards such suggestions?
(It really depends on whether they used some external team to cobble something together for them, or whether they set up their own team that is still getting up to speed on how to optimize Android for appliance use. I'm really hoping for the latter, because that means future updates could be really nice for users, also showing how to leverage their chosen hacker-friendly stance for actually creating a better end product. Time will tell.)
How realistic do you think it would be for an external team to cobble together a low-power standby mode? Put the RK3399 into a low power mode, turn off the screen and a low power state for the Xilinx FPGA? Obviously keeping the RAM state. Then "instant on" if any button is pressed?
Presumably Android has a lot of that built-in as every tablet & smartphone needs to preserve battery life?
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All noise measurements should be done at 1mV/div. 200uV and 500uV/div are software magnifications. Front end does only 1mV/div in hardware, unlike, for instance, SD2000X HD that have actual 500uV/div range.
Dave has obtained that value (18 uV) with those settings: 1mV/div, 1ms, BW filter, 50ohm input. Without 50 ohm the noise increase at 42-43. With HDO1000 I have obtained the same values putting a 50 ohm terminator on input of the scope.
I am curious what AC RMS value you obtain with SD2000X HD with the same parameters.
Maybe Tautech can post AC RMS value for SDS 1000X HD with the same parameters.
I don't have time to search right now for details, but I published data in 2000X-HD.
It was around 22uV Stdev (AC RMS) with those settings at 50 Ω, at 1MΩ around 32 uV Stdev.
But make a note that when you enable 20 MHz BW on Rigol it enables lowpass filtering in software.
That is equivalent of enabling ERES on Siglent, which Siglent does not do automatically.
If we enable appropriate ERES then we get 17-18uV at 50Ω, and 29-30 at 1 MΩ.
Make note that Siglent has less noise at higher frequencies and Rigol a bit less at low frequencies.
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Reading about fans, touchscreens, Android, binwalks, etc. is all very good.
But I want to see what bugs I can expect in a few weeks.
So Dave, please do a bugs bonaza/40 minutes rant video just like you did for the MSO5000.
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I don't think Siglent is working on any ASICs, and without them? Not gonna happen at this price point.
I tend to agree.
Same here!! Taking on an ASIC development involving a custom relative High Speed and Resolution ADC is a huge undertaking, both risk and financial-wise.
It took Rigol many years and two or three iterations to get it right, eg. The MSO5000 series was ASIC-based but quite noisy.
I could be wrong but it seems they started work on the ASIC after the DS1054Z was launched. That's how long it took them.
Think we know where the 12 bit ADC design came from, and Rigol hedged their bets by licensing this IP
Where? Surely they don't need to license an ADC - it's a well-known tech.
Well known to whom may I ask :-DD
Obviously you have no clue as to what's involved in actual ASIC chip design, much less an ADC, and much more less than a moderately high speed/resolution ADC that Rigol has developed. Very few can do this, and without significant "outside" help Rigol didn't pull this off by themselves.
You can learn semiconductor physics to details you never were exposed to in grad school, spend years in the lab playing around with ADCs, read all the IEEE papers you want, learn and play around with exotic IC layout tools that make PCBs look like kindergarden, learn and become proficient in 2 and 3D field solvers, get very comfortable and extremely proficient with many Cadence exotic tools (this is not Spice!!), and so on, then you might have a snowballs chance in a very hot place of pulling off an ADCs like Rigols.
You can't make changes like add components, add jumpers, cut traces, change component types, change component values, move components, easily view circuit waveform details, add heat sinks and so on with a custom chip design. Have you ever designed anything that worked from the get-go without a single change to anything, then look at the detailed complexity of a typical ADC IC, the required precision, intrinsic noise, timing, routing, coupling (yes femtofarads make a difference), thermal, analog input, digital I/O, power supply sensitivity, reference sensitivity & drift, and so on, then consider the ADC we are discussing!! Now consider the cost and time of correcting a single design error of almost an infinite possible variety, or overlooked parameter, the rerun fab costs are huge ($M), and the timeline for a rerun can be a fractions of a year!!
So one should not be surprised that it's takes years to initially develop such an ADC, and more years to get it right!!
The folks that can do this are few and likely not employed by Rigol, nor Siglent for that matter, they are good enough to write their own paychecks, and worth every penny :-+
Anyway, to just write this off as "Surely they don't need to license an ADC - it's a well-known tech" indicates you a clueless about the what's involved |O
Best,
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But make a note that when you enable 20 MHz BW on Rigol it enables lowpass filtering in software.
That is equivalent of enabling ERES on Siglent, which Siglent does not do automatically.
If we enable appropriate ERES then we get 17-18uV at 50Ω, and 29-30 at 1 MΩ.
Make note that Siglent has less noise at higher frequencies and Rigol a bit less at low frequencies.
This might hint that Rigol's custom input chip is implemented in SiGe BiCMOS rather than pure CMOS, since the SiGe bipolar transistors have lower intrinsic 1/f corners.
Someday maybe "noopy" will get ahold of one of these Rigol custom chip sets and we can have a look inside :)
Best,
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It was around 22uV Stdev (AC RMS) with those settings at 50 Ω, at 1MΩ around 32 uV Stdev.
But make a note that when you enable 20 MHz BW on Rigol it enables lowpass filtering in software.
That is equivalent of enabling ERES on Siglent, which Siglent does not do automatically.
If we enable appropriate ERES then we get 17-18uV at 50Ω, and 29-30 at 1 MΩ.
Make note that Siglent has less noise at higher frequencies and Rigol a bit less at low frequencies.
This make me interested about 1000X HD. I'm curious enough to wait for it ...
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...
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
...
And he would buy the € 386.10 SDS1104X-E and hack it into an SDS1204X-E
The DHO804 might be hackable to 250Mhz. Time will tell...
That would be great, but 4 new probes to comply with the increased BW (70 or 100MHz -> 250MHz), may be needed.
As far as I know, there's no need for new probes in the Siglent case in consideration.
What probes came with the 804/814? I don't recall to see that
PS: I was dreaming with them being all the same model from DHO802 to DHO924 ::)
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From the spec sheet:
DHO814/DHO804: Passive Probe x4 (150 MHz)
DHO812/DHO802: Passive Probe x2 (150 MHz)
DHO924/DHO924S: Passive Probe x4 (350 MHz)
DHO914/DHO914S: Passive Probe x4 (150 MHz)
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Thank you!
...
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
...
And he would buy the € 386.10 SDS1104X-E and hack it into an SDS1204X-E
The DHO804 might be hackable to 250Mhz. Time will tell...
Yes, time will tell.
It may simply be too early for these considerations.
Anyway, the DHO814 doesn't seem to be a good choice according to this price list.
€ 100.- more (net) for only 30MHz more? Nothing else is different there, right?
Then rather put another hundred on it for a DHO914.
The SDS1104X-E is still not a bad option for € 386.10 (net).
If 8-bit is really "dead", maybe these devices will become cheaper.
Time will tell... ;)
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Most of the systems integrations teams doing this stuff know too little about Linux and Android to do it "properly". This has been so ever since wireless routers started using Linux, and I see no significant change in quality, except possibly when they simply fork OpenWRT and add their own look-and-feel. (Do note that OpenWRT, while good, isn't any kind of a pinnacle either; it's very generic and modular, is all.)
For the SD card Dave dumped, it really looks to me like a bog-standard Android system image.
One that has not been optimized, and is, uh, quite "vanilla", indicating that with some systems integration work, the boot-up time could be shortened significantly, for example. I wonder how receptive Rigol would be towards such suggestions?
(It really depends on whether they used some external team to cobble something together for them, or whether they set up their own team that is still getting up to speed on how to optimize Android for appliance use. I'm really hoping for the latter, because that means future updates could be really nice for users, also showing how to leverage their chosen hacker-friendly stance for actually creating a better end product. Time will tell.)
How realistic do you think it would be for an external team to cobble together a low-power standby mode? Put the RK3399 into a low power mode, turn off the screen and a low power state for the Xilinx FPGA? Obviously keeping the RAM state. Then "instant on" if any button is pressed?
Sleep modes for the RK3399 are supported by the kernel already, so it's really only a matter of the FPGA. The FPGA is a black box; I don't know if they even implemented software power control for it. Anything else is doable. Even hibernation (suspend to disk), although I wouldn't want to do that with an SD-card based storage.
Thus, the answer is: it depends on how they control the power to the FPGA. If the control is sane-ish, very realistic. If there is no software power control, and the FPGA circuits are designed to be powered whenever the power is on, then it won't work.
I myself have much more experience with Linux-based integration than Android, the difference being in the userspace, but I really don't see why the bootup should take 45 seconds. Something like 15 seconds would sound more reasonable for this hardware, although the SD card could be a bottleneck here. Not necessarily the bandwidth, but the IOPs, i.e. scattered small-file read speed. On SD cards, it is often under 1 MB/s. The maximum bandwidth for the SD card on the RK3399 is 104 MB/s per SD3.0.
Note that using the eMMC 5.1 HS400 interface that the same subsystem on RK3399 supports as an alternative (but would use more pins than SD card) would top at 400 MB/s. This alone would not make a big difference to the boot time, I believe, but it would allow options with better scattered small-file read speed.
Presumably Android has a lot of [power state and sleep stuff] built-in as every tablet & smartphone needs to preserve battery life?
Absolutely. There are even tools designed to help linearize the file access patterns on bootup, to speed up booting for devices that tend to have slow scattered small file I/O access. The vendors don't do their own tools for this, they use the standard Android tools to finesse their systems integration. Which, I must admit, on phones (and most TVs and TV boxes) is pretty impressive, overall. If I recall correctly, I saw some of these in the system image Dave grabbed –– but I only did a quick look-see to get an overview, not any kind of examination.
Hibernation, also known as suspend-to-disk, would also be a viable option if the mass storage medium was more reliable. I don't think phones use that (because the radios need to be on or wake up regularly), so it is rare on Android; but the kernel does have the necessary doodads for this, and it is widely used in Linux. here (https://elinux.org/Suspend_To_Disk_For_ARM) is a Linux ARM suspend to disk summary from 2014, for example.
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Good thinking.
Then rather put another hundred on it for a DHO914.
The SDS1104X-E is still not a bad option for € 386.10 (net).
If 8-bit is really "dead", maybe these devices will become cheaper.
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more experience with Linux-based integration than Android, the difference being in the userspace, but I really don't see why the bootup should take 45 seconds
Bumped the other day into this parallel between Linux and Android partitions layout and boot process. It's a bird-eye view, in the premise of replacing Android with Linux on a mobile platform:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/info-android-device-partitions-and-filesystems.3586565/
https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/info-boot-process-android-vs-linux.3785254/
https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/info-is-it-possible-to-install-windows-ios-or-linux-on-android-device.3763961/
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...
At the moment you can buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E at Batronix for € 386.10 (net).
The Rigol DHO814 costs € 499.- (net).
Except you wouldn't buy the 814, you'd buy the €399 804 and hack it into an 814.
...
And he would buy the € 386.10 SDS1104X-E and hack it into an SDS1204X-E
The DHO804 might be hackable to 250Mhz. Time will tell...
not with 312.5 MSp/s
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Apart from 45 seconds boot time not really being a problem (like Martin says, you need to achieve working temp) scope is not a phone or a video game. There is significant circuitry to be initialized, FPGA loaded, self test, calibrations, verifications...
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Apart from 45 seconds boot time not really being a problem (like Martin says, you need to achieve working temp) scope is not a phone or a video game. There is significant circuitry to be initialized, FPGA loaded, self test, calibrations, verifications...
It takes 54 seconds from pressing the power button until the splash screen disappears.
It takes about 8 seconds after switching on until only the splash screen appears.
This is a long time. SDS1104X-E is ready after about 25 seconds afair.
And you don't always want to measure, especially in the beginning you might just want to look up an option in the menu or check the version etc..
You can argue that it doesn't bother you, but it's not a plus, just like the howling fan isn't desirable.
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So one should not be surprised that it's takes years to initially develop such an ADC, and more years to get it right!!
They did take years.
The folks that can do this are few and likely not employed by Rigol, nor Siglent for that matter, they are good enough to write their own paychecks, and worth every penny :-+
What prevents Rigol from hiring that person?
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It was around 22uV Stdev (AC RMS) with those settings at 50 Ω, at 1MΩ around 32 uV Stdev.
But make a note that when you enable 20 MHz BW on Rigol it enables lowpass filtering in software.
That is equivalent of enabling ERES on Siglent, which Siglent does not do automatically.
If we enable appropriate ERES then we get 17-18uV at 50Ω, and 29-30 at 1 MΩ.
Make note that Siglent has less noise at higher frequencies and Rigol a bit less at low frequencies.
This make me interested about 1000X HD. I'm curious enough to wait for it ...
I would wait for DHO800 to be released to sales and actually available to test before decision, regardless of 1000X HD..
I see too many little (and not so little) possible annoyances of not fully finished product with many weird design choices and price mandated compromises...
And you can see lot's of people that would buy it to tweak fan and play with it.
Which is fully OK, if your hobby is playing with the scope. If you want to do things with the scope in reliable manner and use to do other electronics (hobby and/or pro) I would wait and see how it actually works in real life.
Just a good frontend and 12 bit is not enough if scope as a whole is limited or avkward and buggy. There is an Owon hires scope for quite some time on market. It never was much of a sucess, because hires is only part of the story.
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Apart from 45 seconds boot time not really being a problem (like Martin says, you need to achieve working temp) scope is not a phone or a video game. There is significant circuitry to be initialized, FPGA loaded, self test, calibrations, verifications...
It takes 54 seconds from pressing the power button until the splash screen disappears.
It takes about 8 seconds after switching on until only the splash screen appears.
This is a long time. SDS1104X-E is ready after about 25 seconds afair.
And you don't always want to measure, especially in the beginning you might just want to look up an option in the menu or check the version etc..
You can argue that it doesn't bother you, but it's not a plus, just like the howling fan isn't desirable.
My Keysight 3000T that was a 12kUSD scope boots for 90 seconds..
It is not a plus but is irrelevant in most cases. I have bad back, so need an occasional excuse to stand up and stretch legs a bit. Highly recommended to all.
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The DHO804 might be hackable to 250Mhz. Time will tell...
not with 312.5 MSp/s
That's the same as the DHO900 though. I mean, on the one hand, if the frontend has the bandwidth anyway and you have a way to switch filters for single-channel mode, why not. On the other hand, neither the datasheet nor the manual seems to mention lower bandwidth with two/four channels active. So maybe they just continue the questionable trend of entry-level scopes having ever higher bandwidths without the sample rate to back it up.
Apart from 45 seconds boot time not really being a problem (like Martin says, you need to achieve working temp) scope is not a phone or a video game. There is significant circuitry to be initialized, FPGA loaded, self test, calibrations, verifications...
Nah, that's just normal Android boot time. I would be surprised if hardware initialization is more than a couple of seconds.
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I myself have much more experience with Linux-based integration than Android, the difference being in the userspace, but I really don't see why the bootup should take 45 seconds. Something like 15 seconds would sound more reasonable for this hardware, although the SD card could be a bottleneck here.
One reason for the long bootup time is the fact that Rigol is using an userdebug build. An user build (which doesn't offer e.g. adb root) boots much faster. I'd assume 5-20 seconds boot time reduction.
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How realistic do you think it would be for an external team to cobble together a low-power standby mode? Put the RK3399 into a low power mode, turn off the screen and a low power state for the Xilinx FPGA? Obviously keeping the RAM state. Then "instant on" if any button is pressed?
Sleep modes for the RK3399 are supported by the kernel already, so it's really only a matter of the FPGA. The FPGA is a black box; I don't know if they even implemented software power control for it. Anything else is doable. Even hibernation (suspend to disk), although I wouldn't want to do that with an SD-card based storage.
Thus, the answer is: it depends on how they control the power to the FPGA. If the control is sane-ish, very realistic. If there is no software power control, and the FPGA circuits are designed to be powered whenever the power is on, then it won't work.
Thanks. I don't pretend to know much about FPGAs, but I did glance over the datasheet (see Power Management, p.22)
https://www.datasheets.com/en/part-details/xc7z015-2clg485i-xilinx-61370287#datasheet (https://www.datasheets.com/en/part-details/xc7z015-2clg485i-xilinx-61370287#datasheet)
it sounds like the full sleep mode is complex because it relies on Rigol having wired it with independent power rails for logic & processing, and you'd have to reconfigure all the logic when coming out of standby (how long does that take?). Alternatively "PS Clock Control" can take the (FPGA) Arm processor from 766MHz to 30MHz which would save power in a standby mode, but I don't know if that would also underclock the power-hungry logic?
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Nah, that's just normal Android boot time.
Yes.
The difference is that any "normal" Android device can go into sleep/suspend/standby mode, so you usually don't have to boot it.
That is just missing here.
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The difference is that any "normal" Android device can go into sleep/suspend/standby mode, so you usually don't have to boot it.
That is just missing here.
If the FPGA and/or ASICs can't be powered down then it might still consume a lot of power and need the fan.
People would complain about that, too.
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And you can see lot's of people that would buy it to tweak fan and play with it.
Yeah, that's totally the reason we're buying it.
Definitely not to use it as an oscilloscope.
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It was around 22uV Stdev (AC RMS) with those settings at 50 Ω, at 1MΩ around 32 uV Stdev.
But make a note that when you enable 20 MHz BW on Rigol it enables lowpass filtering in software.
That is equivalent of enabling ERES on Siglent, which Siglent does not do automatically.
If we enable appropriate ERES then we get 17-18uV at 50Ω, and 29-30 at 1 MΩ.
Make note that Siglent has less noise at higher frequencies and Rigol a bit less at low frequencies.
This make me interested about 1000X HD. I'm curious enough to wait for it ...
I would wait for DHO800 to be released to sales and actually available to test before decision, regardless of 1000X HD..
I see too many little (and not so little) possible annoyances of not fully finished product with many weird design choices and price mandated compromises...
And you can see lot's of people that would buy it to tweak fan and play with it.
Which is fully OK, if your hobby is playing with the scope. If you want to do things with the scope in reliable manner and use to do other electronics (hobby and/or pro) I would wait and see how it actually works in real life.
Agreed. I just watched Dave's teardown and it looks like a neat little scope. But keeping Rigol's track record for putting unfinished products on the market in mind, it would be wise to hold off any purchase if the goal is to use the scope for any real work. But for an extra scope it might be worthwhile just to have 12 bit resolution with a relatively low noise level (if this model has a good low noise performance) at a low cost.
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One reason for the long bootup time is the fact that Rigol is using an userdebug build. An user build (which doesn't offer e.g. adb root) boots much faster. I'd assume 5-20 seconds boot time reduction.
Agreed.
it sounds like the full sleep mode is complex because it relies on Rigol having wired it with independent power rails for logic & processing, and you'd have to reconfigure all the logic when coming out of standby (how long does that take?).
And, depending on how Rigol has implemented the FPGA, it might not even be possible (for an external team, at all).
Optimally, the FPGA itself would use standard PCIe power management, and the subsystems (analog frontends) one GPIO pin to control whether they're powered or not. (It may sound "obvious", but when the SoC GPIO pins operate at say 1.8V logic levels, it is not the most straightforward method; instead, a designer might opt for a power management IC, that only ensures everything is powered up in the right order, with no provision for sleep modes.)
GPIO support for RK3399 (and most common GPIO extenders like PCA954x) is baked in to the Linux/Android kernels, so it is just a matter of enabling the support in the kernel, and describing/exposing them in the Device Tree description.
If Rigol did it the PCIe ASPM + GPIO way, then various low power modes are possible with not too much effort (depending only on how complicated the power-up sequencing from sleep modes is).
Alternatively "PS Clock Control" can take the (FPGA) Arm processor from 766MHz to 30MHz which would save power in a standby mode, but I don't know if that would also underclock the power-hungry logic?
I wouldn't know; I haven't worked enough with FPGAs yet.
It is interesting to note that for Android 7 TV boxes based on the same SoC, like H96 MAX, typically use 5V 2A power supplies. Of course, the DHO800/900 also have a built-in display, and its backlight is likely to draw quite a lot of power, relatively speaking. I don't expect the front panel controls to draw much power at all (even the LED lights in them), so it really depends on whether reliable software control over the power hungry subsystems in the scope is possible or not. Often the turning off part is easy, and the turning on in the correct order, reliably, is the hard part.
(Which is also why I would not be surprised at all to find out that the Rigol DHO800/900 systems integration team were still working on exactly this. Having the system work reliably first, then concentrate on optimizations like bootup and power saving modes, would be the best approach, in my opinion.)
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September 8 is the release date! Dave should finally post the review! (I hope so)
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What prevents Rigol from hiring that person?
Simple, $!!!
These folks would likely command a salary/bonus in the region of the Rigol CEO, and they would become quickly bored with only this product chip-set. These type folks are the best of the best the engineering community has, they thrive on the continuous challenges and pressure of advanced chip design, similar to professional athletes, and can chose to work anywhere.
Best,
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September 8 is the release date! Dave should finally post the review! (I hope so)
Dave doesn't do full reviews. It is a lot of work that ends up in boring videos.
He is content producer. He does unboxing, and simple demonstrations because those have good price performance.
This is not me criticizing him, but simply a fact.
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It is interesting to note that for Android 7 TV boxes based on the same SoC, like H96 MAX, typically use 5V 2A power supplies. Of course, the DHO800/900 also have a built-in display, and its backlight is likely to draw quite a lot of power, relatively speaking. I don't expect the front panel controls to draw much power at all (even the LED lights in them), so it really depends on whether reliable software control over the power hungry subsystems in the scope is possible or not. Often the turning off part is easy, and the turning on in the correct order, reliably, is the hard part.
(Which is also why I would not be surprised at all to find out that the Rigol DHO800/900 systems integration team were still working on exactly this. Having the system work reliably first, then concentrate on optimizations like bootup and power saving modes, would be the best approach, in my opinion.)
Power gated of subsystems was a popular method to save power in complex chips long ago, hopefully this was also considered in the overall system DSO design. If so, this opens the door for clever folks to hack this and create all sorts of interesting options as well as with this small form factor Rigol introducing a battery powered version even with the higher power "Full On" apparent from Dave's review.
Wish we had the skills of the clever hackers, as this looks like a really fun platform to play around with. True professionals may bypass this for awhile since their time is $, but hobbiest and retired folks may decide to test the waters early, and as mentioned this is likely Rigol's business model, especially considering the custom chip-set NRE $ recoveryl!!
Interesting times indeed :-+
Best,
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So if i understand correctly... (perhaps not every last detail, but more or less)
* The usb-c powering is great, because...
* it lets us have a possibility for mobile applications, for example automotive or remote site
* it lets us hook the scope up to a battery, for use in power supply or other HV type applications...
Although i would caution this, to not have floating about, to then instead tie it to some other part of any such HV circuit AND (probably) also use differential probes. Perhaps somebody else can be a bit clearer about all that.
Anyhow getting to the actual point of my comment here:
* 30w constant power is a bit sadface for battery powered application, since then requires a more hefty battery for longer runtimes
* However does it makes sense from a perspective of the thermal warm up, not to have things shutting down some of the time?
* But an optional power saving modes could still be possible - but at the impact of the accuracy or noise performance etc.
* That a lot of these FPGAs have to be powered on MULTIPLE rails. And have very complex power requirements seems the main challenge here. Since you take away some rails and it no longer functions properly, right? (and presumably an invalid rail taints things to the extent to need to reset / reboot everything?)
So while we could [maybe] have some expectations for a sleep mode in android OS, or some slightly faster overall boot time. The FPGA is the main problem here. Which can only be solved by Rigol with future product updates...
Ok then. So what sort of batter are we talking about here to feed 30 watts constant power? For example to be large enough for the same sorts of duration as a laptop? Sounds a bit like a laptop battery then? Hmm but for what voltage?
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So one should not be surprised that it's takes years to initially develop such an ADC, and more years to get it right!!
The devil is on the details with those things. You don't have access to standard resistors. you can't just go : i need 10k.. that is not guaranteed. The only thing that you can be sure of is ratios. Resistances are specified in units. for example 1 micron by 1 micron for technology x gives you roughly 1k. make the thing 2x1 ( double wide ) and it halves (~500r) . Make it 1x2 ( double long ) and it doubles (~2k). You don't care about the actual value. You care about the ratios. So making a an R-2R network or reference divider ladder is simple and accurate... you'd think....
The problem is they cannot guarantee layer uniformity. During the vacuum deposition of resistive layer the wafer may not sit perfectly flat and there could be a slight thickness gradient across the wafer. A resistor on the left may be thicker ( so lower value) than a resistor on the right. Drat... so what if we split the resistors in a voltage divider. We stick one half of each left , and one half of each right. Then the gradient self compensates and the ratio is correct again.. good. But what if the wafer or gradient rotates 90 degrees .. fffffuuu.... So we split the resistors in 4 equal pieces and position the north east south west. Now it doesn't matter which way the thickness gradient goes over the wafer. It cancels out.
I did that on an 8 bit reference ladder for a 17MHz adc in 1995. It's not easy to do that place and route...
The same goes if you need to do current mirrors. You can't guarantee there is no gradient , so split the transistors in 4 quadrants , then bundle. It makes very interesting layouts.. like checkerboards.. it's called Common Centroid Layout
further reading : (warning : causes severe headaches....)
http://class.ece.iastate.edu/vlsi2/docs/Papers%20Done/2000-06-TCAS2-YC.pdf (http://class.ece.iastate.edu/vlsi2/docs/Papers%20Done/2000-06-TCAS2-YC.pdf)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301828945_Layout_Symmetries_Quantification_and_Application_to_Cancel_Nonlinear_Process_Gradients (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301828945_Layout_Symmetries_Quantification_and_Application_to_Cancel_Nonlinear_Process_Gradients)
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Agreed. I just watched Dave's teardown and it looks like a neat little scope. But keeping Rigol's track record for putting unfinished products on the market in mind, it would be wise to hold off any purchase if the goal is to use the scope for any real work. But for an extra scope it might be worthwhile just to have 12 bit resolution with a relatively low noise level (if this model has a good low noise performance) at a low cost.
I pre-ordered the DHO804 despite the teardown video....
What you saw there was rather cheap looking, but that's probably the price you have to pay for wanting 12 bit for a handful of dollars.
And that will be an interesting thing when I compare the scope with the DS1054Z and the SDS1104X-E.
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Ok then. So what sort of batter are we talking about here to feed 30 watts constant power? For example to be large enough for the same sorts of duration as a laptop? Sounds a bit like a laptop battery then? Hmm but for what voltage?
It needs a regulated 15V output by USB-C, and at 37W max you'd need a chunky 300Wh battery for a full day of work. And those are advertised as "portable power stations" that weigh 3kg+ (7 lbs+) rather than the little "power banks" for smartphones. Laptop batteries top out at around 100Wh, which is the max allowed by airlines.
So you can see that adding a standby power mode would drastically reduce the size, weight & cost of a practical battery pack.
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So one should not be surprised that it's takes years to initially develop such an ADC, and more years to get it right!!
The devil is on the details with those things. You don't have access to standard resistors. you can't just go : i need 10k.. that is not guaranteed. The only thing that you can be sure of is ratios. Resistances are specified in units. for example 1 micron by 1 micron for technology x gives you roughly 1k. make the thing 2x1 ( double wide ) and it halves (~500r) . Make it 1x2 ( double long ) and it doubles (~2k). You don't care about the actual value. You care about the ratios. So making a an R-2R network or reference divider ladder is simple and accurate... you'd think....
The problem is they cannot guarantee layer uniformity. During the vacuum deposition of resistive layer the wafer may not sit perfectly flat and there could be a slight thickness gradient across the wafer. A resistor on the left may be thicker ( so lower value) than a resistor on the right. Drat... so what if we split the resistors in a voltage divider. We stick one half of each left , and one half of each right. Then the gradient self compensates and the ratio is correct again.. good. But what if the wafer or gradient rotates 90 degrees .. fffffuuu.... So we split the resistors in 4 equal pieces and position the north east south west. Now it doesn't matter which way the thickness gradient goes over the wafer. It cancels out.
I did that on an 8 bit reference ladder for a 17MHz adc in 1995. It's not easy to do that place and route...
The same goes if you need to do current mirrors. You can't guarantee there is no gradient , so split the transistors in 4 quadrants , then bundle. It makes very interesting layouts.. like checkerboards.. it's called Common Centroid Layout
further reading : (warning : causes severe headaches....)
http://class.ece.iastate.edu/vlsi2/docs/Papers%20Done/2000-06-TCAS2-YC.pdf (http://class.ece.iastate.edu/vlsi2/docs/Papers%20Done/2000-06-TCAS2-YC.pdf)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301828945_Layout_Symmetries_Quantification_and_Application_to_Cancel_Nonlinear_Process_Gradients (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301828945_Layout_Symmetries_Quantification_and_Application_to_Cancel_Nonlinear_Process_Gradients)
:)
You really don't need inform Mike about any of this. ;)
Something he shared with me a while back but in low res....
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What prevents Rigol from hiring that person?
Simple, $!!!
Rigol doesn't have money?
These folks would likely command a salary/bonus in the region of the Rigol CEO
And earn Rigol FAR more money in return.
These 'scopes are going to dominate the market for the next two or three years at least. The DS1054Z is still #1 after about 10 years despite fierce competition.
The ASIC inside is also used in the 1000+4000 series, and will likely appear on other models real soon.
and they would become quickly bored with only this product chip-set.
Maybe they were hired as consultants.
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These 'scopes are going to dominate the market for the next two or three years at least.
We will wait and see. I predict there will be bugs and there will be outrage and there will be fangirls and there will be trolls and, well there will be pretty much the same as what happens when a company popular with the hobby consumer crowd releases a new technological iteration of their product.
I am sure it will be an OK product for the price.
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September 8 is the release date! Dave should finally post the review! (I hope so)
Nope, sorry, haven't even started shooting it yet.
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September 8 is the release date! Dave should finally post the review! (I hope so)
Dave doesn't do full reviews. It is a lot of work that ends up in boring videos.
He is content producer. He does unboxing, and simple demonstrations because those have good price performance.
This is not me criticizing him, but simply a fact.
I do plan on doing a full review video on this scope.
If you watched my live show yesterday, I talked about the process.
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We will wait and see. I predict there will be bugs and there will be outrage and there will be fangirls and there will be trolls and, well there will be pretty much the same as what happens when a company popular with the hobby consumer crowd releases a new technological iteration of their product.
I am sure it will be an OK product for the price.
Will it exceed it's grandad's thread of 191 pages - the ubiquitous DS1045Z? Only time will tell. :popcorn:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/)
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I am sure it will be an OK product for the price.
You KNOW it's going to sell.
Probably as fast as Rigol can manufacture them.
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I predict there will be bugs and there will be outrage and there will be fangirls and there will be trolls and, well there will be pretty much the same as what happens when a company popular with the hobby consumer crowd releases a new technological iteration of their product.
I predict all out war with the Siglent fanboys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut04e_Dpnwo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut04e_Dpnwo)
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I predict all out war with the Siglent fanboys.
They're already in here muttering under their breath about how this is just a toy that people will play with before going back to a Siglent to get some work done.
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Nope, sorry, haven't even started shooting it yet.
Good, then we have time to remind you about internal reference frequencies and Project Yaigol.
Here, maybe like never before needs eyes wide open.
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Nope, sorry, haven't even started shooting it yet.
Good, then we have time to remind you about internal reference frequencies and Project Yaigol.
Here, maybe like never before needs eyes wide open.
Also: Be sure to count the capacitors and make sure they're all there.
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Nope, sorry, haven't even started shooting it yet.
Good, then we have time to remind you about internal reference frequencies and Project Yaigol.
What did I miss? :-//
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwS6HnM9PDo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwS6HnM9PDo)
https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/delta-electronics/ASB0512HHB-AF0A/9974255 (https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/delta-electronics/ASB0512HHB-AF0A/9974255)
https://www.delta-fan.com/Download/Spec/ASB0512HHB-AF0A.pdf (https://www.delta-fan.com/Download/Spec/ASB0512HHB-AF0A.pdf)
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Oh boy 70 C on a thermocouple is not good. That chip would have been easily over 100 C.
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Oh boy 70 C on a thermocouple is not good. That chip would have been easily over 100 C.
Yeah, on the outer edge too. Something did not like it and shut down.
I only noticed it during the Amp Hour recording and the temp was dropping, so it was probably mid 70's on the heatsink at peak.
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They're already in here muttering under their breath about how this is just a toy that people will play with before going back to a Siglent to get some work done.
Pfft, The real deal prosumers use Fnirsi. Now that is hardcore.
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Recently DHO800 and DHO900 appeared in Poland, but not DHO1000. 4000 was available for some time. Any idea why it may be?
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Those types of heatsinks do not handle high thermal loads well if trying to passively cool stuff. For some reason I have been seeing this style of heatsink being used more and more often, especially on some WiFi routers, Though the implementations that I have seen involved the casing acting as a duct while the fan exhausted the heat outside of the case.
In the case of WiFi router using a fraction of that wattage, the fan doesn't spin unless it is a hot day and the CPU is under a higher load. (the fan doesn't kick in until the CPU or any of the WiFi radio SOCs reach 80C or hotter in the case of the router).
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Will it exceed it's grandad's thread of 191 pages - the ubiquitous DS1045Z? Only time will tell. :popcorn:
Looking strong up till now. 21 pages and counting, without product on the shelves...
BUT let's see the impact when it comes out.
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Hi,
Just got the DH0804 from China, comes with the 65w Lenovo psu... man, this thing is so tiny :-DD
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I predict all out war with the Siglent fanboys.
They're already in here muttering under their breath about how this is just a toy that people will play with before going back to a Siglent to get some work done.
Well, it is a sort of a toy, compared to MSO5000. for instance... People use older equipment that works from all brands if if works better than any new shiny but immature thing.
They might go to Siglent (or Picoscope or R&S or Keysight) if they want Bode plot for instance.
If all they need is 12 bit scope for looking at the signals visually and some basic analysis, I'm sure this scope would be more than enough for many people. For decoding, it will suck with such a small memory on SPI for instance. Or I2C and 2 analog channels. Of course it would be fine to ocasionaly look at few packets packet. For a single (or 2 ch on a 4ch scope) channel looking at signal it would be fine.
Or as Nico said, it is cheap enough to just buy it to have something 12 bit with low noise for just looking at low level signals in addition to your existing workhorse.
It is a cheapest 12 bit scope currently. Not the best 12 bit scope. Not the best scope for MSO work. Not the best scope in any category but it's own: rock bottom cheap 12 bit scope.
Nobody else decided yet to compete in that category. It is not a replacement for DS1000Z so much as a DS1000Z equivalent in 12 bit touchscreen world. That is not a bad thing but not a gamechanger either.
It is up to people to decide if that is something for them or they need something else.
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Many posts here show hardware/software hacking enthusiasm. :-+
Maybe we should organize some "Capture the Flag" competitions.
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ok granted, but on what basis are we saying that the mixed signal is worse on the 900 series, when there isn't actually proper reviews yet? some memory specs alone? or are you also assuming that it will be like the mso5000 previously?
also in terms of using it as an l.a. perhaps we can connect to a pc. and then get some 3rd party software support for sigrok. so i am a bit unsure to what extent here the mixed signal is going to be so much worse... or at what data rates it cannot keep up, to send over those data, if the memory is not big enough?
otoh i have seen rudi demonstrate the rb2004 data capture. and there is something to be said about having it right there on the scope. and presented so clearly / so well. and across multiple digital channels.
so i am eh, waiting for some 900 series standalone review(s). or some good scope-to-scope comparisons. maybe it's some few more days/weeks that they get shipped out to customers?
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ok granted, but on what basis are we saying that the mixed signal is worse on the 900 series, when there isn't actually proper reviews yet? some memory specs alone? or are you also assuming that it will be like the mso5000 previously?
also in terms of using it as an l.a. perhaps we can connect to a pc. and then get some 3rd party software support for sigrok. so i am a bit unsure to what extent here the mixed signal is going to be so much worse... or at what data rates it cannot keep up, to send over those data, if the memory is not big enough?
otoh i have seen rudi demonstrate the rb2004 data capture. and there is something to be said about having it right there on the scope. and presented so clearly / so well. and across multiple digital channels.
so i am eh, waiting for some 900 series standalone review(s). or some good scope-to-scope comparisons. maybe it's some few more days/weeks that they get shipped out to customers?
If you are refering to my post, I spoke about 800.
With 1MPts it will have sampling issues if you lengthen the timebase.
900 with (125MHz BW) might be decent little machine. It is not as cheap though.. As you say, needs to be seen. It might end up being nice little scope. But for 125Mhz BW.
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for decoding, it will suck with such a small memory on SPI for instance.
I agree with you, in that the debug of exchanges for anything other than the smallest, most basic systems will require something other than an oscilloscope anyway.
However, I note that Keysight seem to think that 1M per channel is a perfectly fine specification for the cheapest 70MHz 4-channel 2000-x series, at more than 7x the cost of the DHO804. And I wonder how many folks planning to order the DHO would at least give pause for thought if they could buy said Keysight new for the same money and not think twice about the "small" memory depth, never mind the 12-bit resolution.
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for decoding, it will suck with such a small memory on SPI for instance.
I agree with you, in that the debug of exchanges for anything other than the smallest, most basic systems will require something other than an oscilloscope anyway.
However, I note that Keysight seem to think that 1M per channel is a perfectly fine specification for the cheapest 4-channel 2000-x series, at more than 7x the cost of the DHO804. And I wonder how many folks planning to order the DHO would at least give pause for thought if they could buy said Keysight new for the same money and never think twice about the "small" memory depth.
Well Keysight is 10+ years old design. In addition to that, Keysight (cheats?) is clever there: In Megazoom chip, input from analog channel going into ADC is in parallel connected to a comparator. That comparator is connected to decoder in hardware, so even if your ADC is sampling at 100KS/s decoder have full timing resolution.
I have Keysight scope and it can decode properly even if what is on the screen is completely scrambled.
That is good side. Bad side is you cannot enable decoding on something you sampled previously.
1Mpoint on software decoded scope is not very good. It will serve basic functions, but must be said that it wont be as good as some other scopes with more memory.
I'm trying to provide balanced view to fanboying saying "it is cheap and 12 bit it will kill everything else because it is much better ..". It is better in a very limited scope. Only in analog performance with limited channels.
You need to go to at least 900 to have 125 MHz scope without stupid limitations.
DHO1000 is analog only.
Some weird product positioning choices..
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Some weird product positioning choices..
Absolutely.
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Whatever the DSO design, it is severely compromised by small memory depth. Don't care the brand.
DSO = Storage for deeper analysis where in case no one has noticed deep memory cannot be surpassed with additional bits. :horse:
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deep memory cannot be surpassed with additional bits. :horse:
And worse: additional bits means more memory gets eaten.
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It is not a replacement for DS1000Z so much as a DS1000Z equivalent in 12 bit touchscreen world. That is not a bad thing but not a gamechanger either.
Why would you buy a 1000Z instead of this?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwS6HnM9PDo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwS6HnM9PDo)
https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/delta-electronics/ASB0512HHB-AF0A/9974255 (https://www.digikey.com.au/en/products/detail/delta-electronics/ASB0512HHB-AF0A/9974255)
https://www.delta-fan.com/Download/Spec/ASB0512HHB-AF0A.pdf (https://www.delta-fan.com/Download/Spec/ASB0512HHB-AF0A.pdf)
Let the search for a fan begin!
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deep memory cannot be surpassed with additional bits. :horse:
And worse: additional bits means more memory gets eaten.
The DHO900 series datasheet says this: 50 Mpts (single-channel[1]), 25 Mpts (dual-channel[2]), 10 Mpts (full-channel[3])
If this is a hackable option (as I suspect it is) then that's plenty good enough.
Maybe the "1mpts" is just a marketing ploy to sell more DHO900 models and it should really have been 5mpts.
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Let the search for a fan begin!
I'm starting to think that you must be hoarding fans... Now i see your catch!! ;)
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For those who weren't around earlier:
User Azusa already installed DHO900 firmware in a DHO800 and got 50mpts of memory. It's not a hardware thing. :popcorn:
Thank you,hubert.
My DHO804 is DHO924 now.
Two extra drams are only for LA.It can be unpopulate if doesn't use the LA .
The bandwidth is increased successfully.it has 800ps rise time now.
And the memory depth is 50M now.
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not a gamechanger
The DHO800 is a massive step. It defines what every manufacturer needs to do if they want to sell oscilloscopes in the future.
How is that not a game changer?
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It is not a replacement for DS1000Z so much as a DS1000Z equivalent in 12 bit touchscreen world. That is not a bad thing but not a gamechanger either.
Why would you buy a 1000Z instead of this?
DHO900 should surpass DS1000Z in every aspect. But lots more money
DHO800 has very little memory with 4CH. There are some reports that phosphor emulation is not as good.. etc.
DS1000Z will be cheaper still. Maybe cheapest "proper" scope DS1000Z we all keep recommending in that price range will be even more affordable, good news.
It all depends on what people want/need.
It is actually a good thing. People will have more choices.
For me personally DHO900 is not bad set of compromises for entry level MSO scope. With "when they finish development" caveat.. But I would need to use it to be able to really say do I like it.
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not a gamechanger
The DHO800 is a massive step. It defines what every manufacturer needs to do if they want to sell oscilloscopes in the future.
How is that not a game changer?
Now in the sub $400 price bracket that other manufacturers will be forced to follow:
12bit
Touch screen
HDMI
VESA mount
USB-C (arguable downside for some, big feature for others)
I'd call that game changer. As always YMMV.
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not a gamechanger
The DHO800 is a massive step. It defines what every manufacturer needs to do if they want to sell oscilloscopes in the future.
How is that not a game changer?
Massive step in what?
Owon makes 14 bit scope for years, but limited software made it nobody cares scope...
It is a big step for Rigol but will it change lives of users?
How many new, life changing things you will be able to do with it compared to DS1000Z, SDS1000X-E, MSO5000?
As you kept trumpeting for years up until now (in discussions about other Rigol, MSO5000), 12 bit and low noise is not important unless you explicitly need it. Which most of the people apparently don't, also adamantly repeated by you.
And if compromises in design (to keep price low) mean you will miss out on something else you need, that it is not a game changer, but something not for you at all.
To put it simply: is DHO900S better than MSO5000 for a person doing robotics, or microcontroller stuff....? It is cheaper but has less sample rate, les memory, one siggen ch less etc..
Is it good enough for some (many?) people? We'll see.
I stand by it and will wait for history to correct me: not a game changer, but another model in Rigol offer, a 12bit offering that they didn't have. What is new (and awesome!) is that they are very aggressive with a pricing so some people will be able to afford it that otherwise would not be able to. It is great and all because more choice...
Game changer... not really. Good news and kudos to Rigol? Yes absolutely.
Although I see more people confused by choices in future.... :-DD
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For those who weren't around earlier:
User Azusa already installed DHO900 firmware in a DHO800 and got 50mpts of memory. It's not a hardware thing. :popcorn:
Thank you,hubert.
My DHO804 is DHO924 now.
Two extra drams are only for LA.It can be unpopulate if doesn't use the LA .
The bandwidth is increased successfully.it has 800ps rise time now.
And the memory depth is 50M now.
Was this just an SD card copy?
Is there a 900 SD card dump available?
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not a gamechanger
The DHO800 is a massive step. It defines what every manufacturer needs to do if they want to sell oscilloscopes in the future.
How is that not a game changer?
Now in the sub $400 price bracket that other manufacturers will be forced to follow:
12bit
Touch screen
HDMI
VESA mount
USB-C (arguable downside for some, big feature for others)
I'd call that game changer. As always YMMV.
Yes if you look at it like that it makes sense..
Except...
Did Keysight (or R&S or Tektronix) made any reply in that segment lately?
They didn't. They don't care for sub 500USD scopes market.
I do know Siglent has response to DHO1000 series by Rigol.
As for 800/900 it remains to be seen.
Their initial response to DS1000Z was SDS1000X-E that was better and more expensive and still is... And sells very well still..
Race to the bottom is not always the best answer.
But I'm not saying it would not be nice that it does start a fierce competition, with awesome hardware coming from all sides for more affordable prices...
It's just I won't hold my breath.
Also remains to be seen how will Rigol handle marketing for their now very eclectic portfolio. Maybe some model streamlining?
Stuff that doesn't sell makes no sense to make.
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Maybe cheapest "proper" scope DS1000Z we all keep recommending in that price range will be even more affordable, good news.
Don't get your hopes up: The DS1052E isn't an awful lot cheaper than a DS1054Z.
(and it's still selling!)
On the bright side: We finally got you to admit the DS054Z is a proper oscilloscope... :D
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Did Keysight (or R&S or Tektronix) made any reply in that segment lately?
That's like asking if Fluke has responded to Brymen yet.
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Their initial response to DS1000Z was SDS1000X-E that was better and more expensive and still is... And sells very well still..
It sells less than the Rigol DS1052E on Batronix.
Race to the bottom is not always the best answer.
The DHO800 is the polar opposite of a "race to the bottom".
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For those who weren't around earlier:
User Azusa already installed DHO900 firmware in a DHO800 and got 50mpts of memory. It's not a hardware thing. :popcorn:
Was this just an SD card copy?
Is there a 900 SD card dump available?
I think it is just a very small vendor.bin file that was needed? and @hubertyoung shared in earlier in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4976533/#msg4976533 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4976533/#msg4976533)
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Was this just an SD card copy?
Is there a 900 SD card dump available?
Look a couple of posts up (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4976533/#msg4976533) from that one...
They changed "vendor.bin" using ADB. You can probably do it on the SD card if you know what you're doing.
nb. The logic analyzer UI also appeared and took up some screen space even though there was no extra hardware installed.
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I'm still having a hard time grokking that the sample data is going into main RAM and the FPGA is processing/decimating it there. There's no obvious bus connection between the FPGA and the RAM chips. It could be on inner layers of the PCB i suppose:
I guess the clue is in the fact that memory depth doesn't quite degrade linearly as you turn on more channels. Maybe there's more bus transactions for the interleaving...
Those RAMs are connected to application processor. You can't have it both way. They probably do data packets to CPU in bursts, with dead time inbetween.
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The DHO800 is the polar opposite of a "race to the bottom".
It is cheapest 12 bit scope available with all the compromises made to make is so cheap.
That is literally the definition...
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The DHO800 is the polar opposite of a "race to the bottom".
It is cheapest 12 bit scope available with all the compromises made to make is so cheap.
What "compromises" have been made, exactly? All I see another level of integration via some very-expensive-to-develop ASICs.
Race to the bottom would have been "a 12-bit DS1054Z", not this.
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The DHO800 is the polar opposite of a "race to the bottom".
It is cheapest 12 bit scope available with all the compromises made to make is so cheap.
What "compromises" have been made, exactly? All I see another level of integration via some very-expensive-to-develop ASICs.
Race to the bottom would have been "a 12-bit DS1054Z", not this.
Only integration is (very good) front end amplifier chip. Otherwise it is ADC-FPGA-Aplication processor system as any other.....
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Their initial response to DS1000Z was SDS1000X-E that was better and more expensive and still is... And sells very well still..
It sells less than the Rigol DS1052E on Batronix.
Looking at today's Batronix sales rankings (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/DSO.html):
a) The DHO800 and DHO900 are above the Rigol MSO5000 even though they haven't shipped any units yet. ;D
b) The most popular models are the 2-channel ones (DHO802 and DHO812)
c) The Rigol MSO5000 is still above Siglent SDS2000
d) Even the old Rigol DS2000 is still selling more than Siglent SDS2000
e) The R&S 1k series sells more than the Rigol MSO5000, go figure. :o
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Only integration is (very good) front end amplifier chip. Otherwise it is ADC-FPGA-Aplication processor system as any other.....
Front end and ADC are both Rigol ASICs now.
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Only integration is (very good) front end amplifier chip. Otherwise it is ADC-FPGA-Aplication processor system as any other.....
Front end and ADC are both Rigol ASICs now.
They are NOT integrated together. You still have preamp (rigol chip) -> ADC (rigol chip but not important -> FPGA > application processor. We are talking scope architecture. It is same as before and other scopes.
If ADC and FPGA were combined together then it would be something different.
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Only integration is (very good) front end amplifier chip. Otherwise it is ADC-FPGA-Aplication processor system as any other.....
Front end and ADC are both Rigol ASICs now.
They are NOT integrated together. You still have preamp (rigol chip) -> ADC (rigol chip but not important -> FPGA > application processor. We are talking scope architecture. It is same as before and other scopes.
If ADC and FPGA were combined together then it would be something different.
Highly unlikely combi (ADC and FPGA) wouldn't it? No flexility in the range of products in PCB / circuit design. And you have to roll you own FPGA. For what gain? It's just digital between ADC and FPGA.
I'm sorry, I don't get your point. I do think it is impressive, investment wise mainly.
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Their initial response to DS1000Z was SDS1000X-E that was better and more expensive and still is... And sells very well still..
It sells less than the Rigol DS1052E on Batronix.
Looking at today's Batronix sales rankings (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/DSO.html):
Again: these aren't sales rankings. Batronix would be utterly stupid to reveal data like that. More likely they make most margin on the top listed models. Every shop works that way. Put the items with highest margin in front.
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Batronix would be utterly stupid to reveal data like that.
Many shops have lists of best sellers, top ten, most watched, etc.
More likely they make most margin on the top listed models. Every shop works that way.
You're arguing that Batronix makes more from selling the Rigol DS1052E than from selling Siglents?
That works for me. :-+
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Batronix would be utterly stupid to reveal data like that.
Many shops have lists of best sellers, top ten, most watched, etc.
And you believe that is based on actual purchase data? Ask yourself: how does a shop benefit from such lists?
Quite often the manufacturers pay shops to put products in particular places in a shop. It is perfectly possible Rigol is paying Batronix to list products in a certain order.
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Only integration is (very good) front end amplifier chip. Otherwise it is ADC-FPGA-Aplication processor system as any other.....
Front end and ADC are both Rigol ASICs now.
They are NOT integrated together. You still have preamp (rigol chip) -> ADC (rigol chip but not important -> FPGA > application processor. We are talking scope architecture. It is same as before and other scopes.
If ADC and FPGA were combined together then it would be something different.
Highly unlikely combi (ADC and FPGA) wouldn't it? No flexility in the range of products in PCB / circuit design. And you have to roll you own FPGA. For what gain? It's just digital between ADC and FPGA.
I'm sorry, I don't get your point. I do think it is impressive, investment wise mainly.
Obviously you don't..
I wasn't sayin it should be done but that was example of integration. If you make your own ADC it is not new architecture, but just another ADC. Which is nice acomplishment fo rthem because they don't depend on anybody. But it is just an ADC chip..
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Even integrating ADC within a FPGA is just moving the same main blocks in a single IC in the end. But yeah, the blocks are the same.
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Even integrating ADC within a FPGA is just moving the same main blocks in a single IC in the end. But yeah, the blocks are the same.
I don't think that is even possible. It is more likely to have two dies in one package. AFAIK analog processes are not compatible with high speed digital processes. Ofcourse you can shoehorn one into the other but I doubt the result is worthwhile. I could be wrong ofcourse. Xilinx has some really expensive FPGAs (as in tens of thousand dollars each) which combine high speed ADCs and FPGAs but I don't know whether these are single or multiple die devices.
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Looks to me that the DHO800 heatsink is made of casted aluminum and not machined aluminum that I believe has higher thermal conductivity.
If made from machined aluminum, the fan could run quieter then.
https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/machined-aluminum-vs-cast-aluminum-whats-the-difference-between-them (https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/machined-aluminum-vs-cast-aluminum-whats-the-difference-between-them)
Just a thought. I'm not an expert in the field.
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Looks to me that the DHO800 heatsink is made of casted aluminum and not machined aluminum that I believe has higher thermal conductivity.
If made from machined aluminum, the fan could run quieter then.
https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/machined-aluminum-vs-cast-aluminum-whats-the-difference-between-them (https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/machined-aluminum-vs-cast-aluminum-whats-the-difference-between-them)
Just a thought. I'm not an expert in the field.
but Looks to me that the whether it is cast aluminum or other high thermal conductivity aluminum, the bottleneck of heat dissipation in the entire system is not heat conduction, but more air heat exchange from the outside world.
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I teardown DHO914S The point is on the AFG module, if it is possible to copy it and install it to DHO900 or DHO800?
AFG core chip is AD9744.
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Even integrating ADC within a FPGA is just moving the same main blocks in a single IC in the end. But yeah, the blocks are the same.
I don't think that is even possible. It is more likely to have two dies in one package. AFAIK analog processes are not compatible with high speed digital processes. Ofcourse you can shoehorn one into the other but I doubt the result is worthwhile. I could be wrong ofcourse. Xilinx has some really expensive FPGAs (as in tens of thousand dollars each) which combine high speed ADCs and FPGAs but I don't know whether these are single or multiple die devices.
Believe those Xilinx FPGAs with high speed ADCs are all on a single die. This was extremely difficult to do but before we retired some folks were learning how to implement high performance analog on the same leading edge digital CMOS processes. This became necessary as the silicon foundries were not investing in pushing analog friendly processes, but putting all their investment into advancing digital CMOS. This forced the rethinking of analog chip design and folks began to employ some techniques they learned from the digital folks, basically use only the smallest geometry devices available and throw lots of them at the problem. The ADC architectures have changed also, leaning more towards the digital side to take advantage of such, and utilize charge redistribution techniques (a version of Discrete Time Continuous Amplitude) rather than propagate continous voltages or currents within the chip.
An interesting ADC chip design that emerged from Fujitsu research labs over 2 decades ago started this trend. Remember when we found out about their developmental 56GSPS 8 Bit ADC single chip in digital 65nm CMOS, with dual ADCs. This was based upon DTCA charge redistribution and recall it employed ~250 SAR (charge redistribution) ADCs running at ~250MHz for each final ADC rendering (two per chip!!), and each SAR had multiple digital trim DACs (also charge redistribution). Recall each ADC had over 5000 total trim DACs per final ADC rendering!!
This was all done in a 65nm digital CMOS process, nothing conventional analog about it, with large numbers of the smallest geometry transistors involved. It got a lot of attention from the folks at AD, TI, Keysight, LeCroy, Tek, USG and so on when they found out about it!!
Best,
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I teardown DHO914S The point is on the AFG module, if it is possible to copy it and install it to DHO900 or DHO800?
AFG core chip is AD9744.
For the price delta between those models, it's barely worth trying to source and install (let alone clone or build) the board. No money to be saved.
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I'll add something here, solder there, change the software...
Evaluation boards with housing. :P ;)
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What I do not understand is why these manufacturers do not lock down their products so the software cannot be hacked, so people can not simply modify the software and they suddenly have the faster model.
I know why the crippled machines are still mostly the same build as the faster ones, but if I was the manufacturer, I would be making damn sure everything was encrypted or whatever so the cheaper machine can not be made better then the manufacturer wants.
I would be in the game to make lots of the evil stuff called profit, if people want a faster machine, they pay for it.
Unless of course the mindset is, they will sell more of the basic ones if the end user can "improve" it. If it can not be improved, there is nothing to think people will automatically go buy the more expensive faster one, there might be an intermediate better model by another manufacturer they might buy instead.
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I'll add something here, solder there, change the software...
Evaluation boards with housing. :P ;)
This DHO800 kit looks like a great platform for the hackers and modders.
I think Rigol does that to keep the technical people happy.. Good so..
Btw I wonder what is the mean time between failures for that USB-C connector..
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What I do not understand is why these manufacturers do not lock down their products so the software cannot be hacked, so people can not simply modify the software and they suddenly have the faster model.
I know why the crippled machines are still mostly the same build as the faster ones, but if I was the manufacturer, I would be making damn sure everything was encrypted or whatever so the cheaper machine can not be made better then the manufacturer wants.
I would be in the game to make lots of the evil stuff called profit, if people want a faster machine, they pay for it.
Unless of course the mindset is, they will sell more of the basic ones if the end user can "improve" it. If it can not be improved, there is nothing to think people will automatically go buy the more expensive faster one, there might be an intermediate better model by another manufacturer they might buy instead.
I suspect it’s all deliberate. This model will also sell to schools. They don’t tincker with it. Some end users don’t fancy hacking it. So there is still profit in those two categories. Also l, these hacks make the lab equipment very popular. People who are enthusiastic about the brand from home lab experience might recommend it at work.
Rigol also saves some money to develop a _more_ secure system. Remember that this also impacts servicing and upgrading. I think it is a deliberate business decision. Might be even designed to be hackable. Keeps maintaining the software easier too.
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for alternative cooling, you can look in this direction - since the oscilloscope has a VESA 100 mount
with threaded bushings installed, you can install an additional fan in this place - a quick selection gives 120 fans - the seats do not match, but the space on the case allows you to make fan new holes after marking - and also, ideally, print your own protective cover on a 3D printer - yes and can be printed in Rigol honeycomb style
despite the fact that the fan operates to blow out - from the grille outwards - the flow direction can be changed if desired or left as is after tests
https://www.silverstonetek.com/en/product/info/fans/AirPenetrator120i/ (https://www.silverstonetek.com/en/product/info/fans/AirPenetrator120i/)
https://www.silverstonetek.com/upload/sstedm/ap120i/AP120i-Product_Sheet-EN.pdf (https://www.silverstonetek.com/upload/sstedm/ap120i/AP120i-Product_Sheet-EN.pdf)
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I'll add something here, solder there, change the software...
Evaluation boards with housing. :P ;)
This DHO800 kit looks like a great platform for the hackers and modders.
I think Rigol does that to keep the technical people happy.. Good so..
Btw I wonder what is the mean time between failures for that USB-C connector..
A number of people on this thread have said similar things. I don't really understand why but maybe I am missing something?
I can see that with adb root you can tinker with the Android system and sideload your own apps. But when it comes to the parts that actually matter, the complicated architecture (Zynq <-> PCIe <-> SoC <-> RAM) and the undocumented ADC and front end ICs are surely going to take a very broad skillset and a lot of determination to reverse engineer. Especially compared to something like the entry level Siglents, where everything is just off-the-shelf parts connected to a single Zynq and a good deal of work has already been done (https://github.com/360nosc0pe/yocto (https://github.com/360nosc0pe/yocto))?
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for alternative cooling, you can look in this direction - since the oscilloscope has a VESA 100 mount
Yep, that's exactly what I've been thinking.
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What I do not understand is why these manufacturers do not lock down their products so the software cannot be hacked
Because they're smarter than you.
(and have sales numbers to back it up)
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I'll add something here, solder there, change the software...
Evaluation boards with housing. :P ;)
This DHO800 kit looks like a great platform for the hackers and modders.
I think Rigol does that to keep the technical people happy.. Good so..
Btw I wonder what is the mean time between failures for that USB-C connector..
A number of people on this thread have said similar things. I don't really understand why but maybe I am missing something?
I can see that with adb root you can tinker with the Android system and sideload your own apps. But when it comes to the parts that actually matter, the complicated architecture (Zynq <-> PCIe <-> SoC <-> RAM) and the undocumented ADC and front end ICs are surely going to take a very broad skillset and a lot of determination to reverse engineer. Especially compared to something like the entry level Siglents, where everything is just off-the-shelf parts connected to a single Zynq and a good deal of work has already been done (https://github.com/360nosc0pe/yocto (https://github.com/360nosc0pe/yocto))?
Sorry, but this project is at 0.01% of all work needed (and it is based on Yocto which sucks badly). Oscilloscope firmware with a decent number of features is by far the most complicated piece of firmware that runs in test equipment. You are talking many years worth of work (fulltime!).
If you want added functionality, then acquire the data through LAN and process on a computer. You can use a small box with a Rasberry pi for that if you want to have a small size solution.
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Btw I wonder what is the mean time between failures for that USB-C connector..
It looks like the mounting pins go right through the PCB so it's probably a lot longer than you think.
If you're paranoid you can attach one of these to it and replace as needed:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1864621;image)
Bonus: The cable comes out sideways so you gain some bench space.
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What I do not understand is why these manufacturers do not lock down their products so the software cannot be hacked, so people can not simply modify the software and they suddenly have the faster model.
Basically, they need to weigh up the cost X to encrypt an upgrade system that will be abused by Y amount within the total of their market Z that will either:
- Reduce uptake by hobbyists by Y units
- Be cracked anyway by someone anyway, resulting in X amount lost
Schools, universities and workplaces (typically) won't crack them anyway, as they don't want to void warranty and it could make certain accreditations they hold at risk. They make most of their money in these markets anyway. Market size of hobbyists (Y) is a significant size smaller than the total market (Z). Additionally, there is a unique advantage of increasing sales within the Y market if they can hack it. So the total cost advantage gained of increased Y sales is probably larger than the potential of having reduced sales but people within the Y market purchasing bigger models.
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Why would you buy a 1000Z instead of this?
Educational equipment? I must make a large oscilloscope order for a school lab. I don;t know-believe the DHO800 is suitable.
Alexander.
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Btw I wonder what is the mean time between failures for that USB-C connector..
It looks like the mounting pins go right through the PCB so it's probably a lot longer than you think.
If you're paranoid you can attach one of these to it and replace as needed:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1864621;image)
Bonus: The cable comes out sideways so you gain some bench space.
I would also add to what Fungus suggested: you put the right angle dongle onto the Rigol scope. + Plus then glue it in place with a reversible silastic too (ie a medium durometer type that is removable, or similar like a poor hot glue that comes away). This will add some extra support and durablity.
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A number of people on this thread have said similar things. I don't really understand why but maybe I am missing something?
I can see that with adb root you can tinker with the Android system and sideload your own apps. But when it comes to the parts that actually matter, the complicated architecture (Zynq <-> PCIe <-> SoC <-> RAM) and the undocumented ADC and front end ICs are surely going to take a very broad skillset and a lot of determination to reverse engineer. Especially compared to something like the entry level Siglents, where everything is just off-the-shelf parts connected to a single Zynq and a good deal of work has already been done (https://github.com/360nosc0pe/yocto (https://github.com/360nosc0pe/yocto))?
Sorry, but this project is at 0.01% of all work needed (and it is based on Yocto which sucks badly). Oscilloscope firmware with a decent number of features is by far the most complicated piece of firmware that runs in test equipment. You are talking many years worth of work (fulltime!).
I am well aware of what it takes and I don't see this project going anywhere in terms of a full oscilloscope implementation. I was just referring to the reverse engineering part. They seem to have the ADCs and basic peripherals working at least (it's basically the cheapest Zynq + GSa/s ADC dev board you can buy now). I don't really expect anyone to achieve even that with the new Rigol.
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Now in the sub $400 price bracket that other manufacturers will be forced to follow:
12bit
Touch screen
HDMI
VESA mount
USB-C (arguable downside for some, big feature for others)
I'd call that game changer. As always YMMV.
Yes if you look at it like that it makes sense..
Except...
Did Keysight (or R&S or Tektronix) made any reply in that segment lately?
They didn't. They don't care for sub 500USD scopes market.
They never have and they never will. And there is nothign wrong with that. Rigol and then Siglent, and a few other bit player have always had the really low end market to themselves. Nothings changed.
I do know Siglent has response to DHO1000 series by Rigol.
As for 800/900 it remains to be seen.
Rigol have the advntage wiht their custom ASIC's. It's likely Siglent can't price match that.
Race to the bottom is not always the best answer.
It's not, but it certainly gives customers a decent low priced option.
But I'm not saying it would not be nice that it does start a fierce competition, with awesome hardware coming from all sides for more affordable prices...
It's just I won't hold my breath.
Rigol may very well have the market to themselves.
The other makers are not going to cut their own throats. Siglent for example never matched the Rigol prices, Rigol has always been slightly lower priced.
Rigol are doing this because they have long term invested in the ASIC's that enable the lower pricing at a decent profit margin. You can bet you bottom dollar that Rigol are not doing this at a loss.
And the others may not be able to match it, they might have to stock to the "sure they have 12bit, but we offer 8bit and all this and that"
The marketing ferris wheel keep going around.
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What I do not understand is why these manufacturers do not lock down their products so the software cannot be hacked, so people can not simply modify the software and they suddenly have the faster model.
Basically, they need to weigh up the cost X to encrypt an upgrade system that will be abused by Y amount within the total of their market Z that will either:
- Reduce uptake by hobbyists by Y units
- Be cracked anyway by someone anyway, resulting in X amount lost
Schools, universities and workplaces (typically) won't crack them anyway, as they don't want to void warranty and it could make certain accreditations they hold at risk. They make most of their money in these markets anyway. Market size of hobbyists (Y) is a significant size smaller than the total market (Z). Additionally, there is a unique advantage of increasing sales within the Y market if they can hack it. So the total cost advantage gained of increased Y sales is probably larger than the potential of having reduced sales but people within the Y market purchasing bigger models.
Yes, that's it.
It's a classic marketing ploy. The more people talk about your product, ultimately the more you are going to sell and the more visible it will be in the minds of everyone.
And the ones that talk the most on forums, blogs, and in Youtube videos etc are the keen enthusiasts who like to hack and get a bargain. It's not Joe Boring Day Job Engineer at company X.
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I've got a couple of suitable Delta fans on order, I'll see if they make a difference. Once is much thicker and should barely fit.
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What I do not understand is why these manufacturers do not lock down their products so the software cannot be hacked, so people can not simply modify the software and they suddenly have the faster model.
I had promised myself but.... arghhhh.... :horse: :horse:
1. Who is the scope manufacturer that has successfully locked its scopes?
2. Developing a good secure system takes lots of money, skill and time. Security is expensive. So, you have to think about tradeoffs... At which level does one place his "lock bar"?
3. My reverse skills have not reached the final answer but I tend to believe (conspiracy spoiler alert) that, in fact, explicitly or not, part of all of this is inside Rigol commercial/expansion tactics.
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I teardown DHO914S The point is on the AFG module, if it is possible to copy it and install it to DHO900 or DHO800?
AFG core chip is AD9744.
Wow! that module is so much more complex than I was hoping. Thank you for taking the trouble to photograph it for us :-+
I guess that cloning that board would be a LOT of work, but are there any expensive components? The most expensive I can identify is the AD9744 14-bit DAC which is £20 from Mouser, US$6.68 from LCSC (and US$4.42 as a QFP).
FWIW the cost between the cheapest DHO804 and the cheapest DHO914S is €360 or £310 (Rigol EU, inc 20% VAT). The 914S does include hardware support for a logic analyser as well as the AFG module, plus the software-locked bandwidth increase.
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I teardown DHO914S The point is on the AFG module, if it is possible to copy it and install it to DHO900 or DHO800?
AFG core chip is AD9744.
Wow! that module is so much more complex than I was hoping. Thank you for taking the trouble to photograph it for us :-+
I guess that cloning that board would be a LOT of work, but are there any expensive components? The most expensive I can identify is the AD9744 14-bit DAC which is £20 from Mouser, US$6.68 from LCSC (and US$4.42 as a QFP).
FWIW the cost between the cheapest DHO804 and the cheapest DHO914S is €360 or £310 (Rigol EU, inc 20% VAT). The 914S does include hardware support for a logic analyser as well as the AFG module, plus the software-locked bandwidth increase.
I thought the same way you did, but seeing such a complex composition I now seem to have lost my cloning value.
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Hello,
I have a suspicion that the Rigol 12 Bit Scopes are processing the data if possible. This can be seen from the fact that the wave files do not contain 12 but already 16 bit values.
That's why you should make sure that the highest sampling rate is forced when measuring, so that hopefully you get the raw data.
Unfortunately, my request for data has not yet been successful:
"Can someone please post two wavefile in bin format with the following settings:
1 mV/div 0.05 ms/div 1 Mpts and
1 V/div 0.05 ms/div 1 Mpts.
And accompanying screenshots.
Each with an open input and full bandwidth.
It is important that 1.25 GSa/s is used so that the device cannot sugarcoat the data.
If it's not too much work, corresponding files with 20 MHz bandwidth would be very nice."
Best regards
egonotto
Rigol finally returned my DHO914S to me, and I captured the requested screenshots and data files.
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I teardown DHO914S The point is on the AFG module, if it is possible to copy it and install it to DHO900 or DHO800?
AFG core chip is AD9744.
Wow! that module is so much more complex than I was hoping. Thank you for taking the trouble to photograph it for us :-+
Yeah, bit more complex than I expected too.
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I tried to convert the bin to csv with the MSO5000 bintest program, no output. Does the DHO9145S need its own bintest?
Rigol finally returned my DHO914S to me, and I captured the requested screenshots and data files.
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1. Who is the scope manufacturer that has successfully locked its scopes?
R&S?
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I am in the process of buying an scope within a few weeks, and was wondering why the Siglent SDS1104X-E suddenly got a 10% discount this month (both at Eleshop, Welectron and Batronix) and this may be the reason. (Or maybe Siglent is planning to release an upgrade in a few months?)
12 bit is a significant upgrade compared to 8-bit, but everything else seems to be so much "cost optimized" that I only briefly considered this Rigol scope. And also, when I look at the Batronix prices, It's EUR594 for the Rigol compared to EUR 460 for the Siglent (Both 4 channels 100MHz versions).
This Rigol would need a bunch of very serious reviews before I would even consider buying it.
One thing I really dislike on Rigol is their measurements are done from on-screen data. That is really crippling your 12-bit ADC. How good is FFT on this 12-bitter compared to Siglent? Other functions, wave capture rate, measurement functions etc. How much are those being hampered by the "cost optimization" efforts? (To be fair, I'm not sure if the Siglent uses real data or screen pictures for the on-screen measurements, because the Siglent SDS1104X-E is near the top of what I am willing to spend on a scope, and I would have to make do with whatever it delivers anyway. (Siglent / Keysight / R&S are out of my range).
And things like the first products being shipped wit such a crappy power supply (See start of this thread) does not give much confidence. If this goes on then the Rigols would be just as bad as the fnirsi crap in just a few more iterations.
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I am in the process of buying an scope within a few weeks, and was wondering why the Siglent SDS1104X-E suddenly got a 10% discount this month (both at Eleshop, Welectron and Batronix) and this may be the reason. (Or maybe Siglent is planning to release an upgrade in a few months?)
12 bit is a significant upgrade compared to 8-bit, but everything else seems to be so much "cost optimized" that I only briefly considered this Rigol scope. And also, when I look at the Batronix prices, It's EUR594 for the Rigol compared to EUR 460 for the Siglent (Both 4 channels 100MHz versions).
This Rigol would need a bunch of very serious reviews before I would even consider buying it.
One thing I really dislike on Rigol is their measurements are done from on-screen data. That is really crippling your 12-bit ADC. How good is FFT on this 12-bitter compared to Siglent? Other functions, wave capture rate, measurement functions etc. How much are those being hampered by the "cost optimization" efforts? (To be fair, I'm not sure if the Siglent uses real data or screen pictures for the on-screen measurements, because the Siglent SDS1104X-E is near the top of what I am willing to spend on a scope, and I would have to make do with whatever it delivers anyway. (Siglent / Keysight / R&S are out of my range).
And things like the first products being shipped wit such a crappy power supply (See start of this thread) does not give much confidence. If this goes on then the Rigols would be just as bad as the fnirsi crap in just a few more iterations.
Siglent uses full data for measurements. And also it does multiple measurements from same buffer..
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Someone needs to make a VESA mount large fan with a normal ?NEMA? style electrical socket on it, and built in high quality USBC jack for a tiny cable to go into this scope.
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Hi,
How good is FFT on this 12-bitter compared to Siglent? Other functions, wave capture rate, measurement functions etc.
FFT was pure disappointment as I´ve tested the DHO4204 - Hard to believe it will getting better on the very little brother...
But if you´ll have a little bit patience, I´ve ordered the DHO804 and will compare it to the SDS1104X-E.
Scope should arrive in the first october week.
Martin
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I teardown DHO914S The point is on the AFG module, if it is possible to copy it and install it to DHO900 or DHO800?
AFG core chip is AD9744.
Hmm, this is interesting. The LM339M has old National Semi logo on it. I need to ask if TI still sells old national parts with the national logo.
edit: It seems that genuine LM339M is quite expensive for what it is and does not satisfy REACH (https://echa.europa.eu/regulations/reach/understanding-reach).
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A bit of a crazy comparison maybe.. but I've been considering the R&S RTB2004 for a while, but now the DHO914S looks interesting instead. I'm sure the R&S is a far more polished product, but why would you pick it over the Rigol? Is is far more capable in any respects?
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A bit of a crazy comparison maybe.. but I've been considering the R&S RTB2004 for a while, but now the DHO914S looks interesting instead. I'm sure the R&S is a far more polished product, but why would you pick it over the Rigol? Is is far more capable in any respects?
RTB2004 is a great scope. I use one frequently. I wish I could get my hands on DHO914s and compare them side by side.
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A bit of a crazy comparison maybe.. but I've been considering the R&S RTB2004 for a while, but now the DHO914S looks interesting instead. I'm sure the R&S is a far more polished product, but why would you pick it over the Rigol? Is is far more capable in any respects?
RTB2004 is nowhere near in the same price category with DHO800 or 900. If price is no issue then RTB2004 is sure superior but it can not be compared due to cost plus if you add all the options you may need like serial decode it gets even more crazy.
I was also considering spending the excessive amount for the RTB2004 but after I seen that a lot of functionality required even more money I quickly changed my mind.
I ordered the DHO804 as the main thing I need is the 12bit resolution and I do not need the signal generator nor do I need the digital channels as for that a dedicated computer based setup is way better (more usable).
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So, as some of you perhaps remember, I have a Sig 2K+ that works reasonably well (for the price).. I'm now tempted to buy the DHO800 for the sheer fun of owning one.. Little quasi-portable scope with usb-c power, vesa mounting... And hey! It's 12 bit!
Questions:
- Is it reasonably silent?
- Is the FFT on par with its Siglent competitor?
- Can it bodeplot with a Rigol gen?
- Is the 12-bit mode really something more than the Eres mode on my 2K+?
- Can I find it for less than the 474 bucks asked by Bartronix?
- Severe bugs I should be aware of?
Thanks!
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- Is the FFT on par with its Siglent competitor?
- Can it bodeplot with a Rigol gen?
- Is the 12-bit mode really something more than the Eres mode on my 2K+?
- Can I find it for less than the 474 bucks asked by Bartronix?
- Severe bugs I should be aware of?
Try reading the thread. Most of this has been discussed in the last few pages.
You can get it cheaper from Batterfly in Italy.
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- Is it reasonably silent?
- Is the FFT on par with its Siglent competitor?
- Can it bodeplot with a Rigol gen?
- Is the 12-bit mode really something more than the Eres mode on my 2K+?
- Can I find it for less than the 474 bucks asked by Bartronix?
- Severe bugs I should be aware of?
- ***
- No(SDS1104X-E).
- No.
- There is no 12 bit mode on the rigol, the rigol is a 12 bit scope..
- 14€ less when ordering by batterfly
- ***
***) Only a very few have this scope, more to come in october I guess.
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I hate to ask, but has anyone found the 12 bits yet?
Resolution of the auto measurements? 3200 'steps' vs. 200 'steps' over the screen height should be noticable.
Anyone Stopped a 1 to 1.5 Div. sine wave, and then tried to Y expand the stopped waveform to see if any more resolution appears, rather than just some of the original 200 screen pixels Y stretched.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/50hz-signal-on-oscilloscope-probe/?action=dlattach;attach=267109;image)
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I hate to ask, but has anyone found the 12 bits yet?
Resolution of the auto measurements? 3200 'steps' vs. 200 'steps' over the screen height should be noticable.
Anyone Stopped a 1 to 1.5 Div. sine wave, and then tried to Y expand the stopped waveform to see if any more resolution appears, rather than just some of the original 200 screen pixels Y stretched.
A higher resolution ADC does not auotmatically mean any more measurement headhead outside of the display area. It all depends on how the range scaling works.
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I definitely mean Y auto measurements within the screen area, such as the peak, or peak to peak amplitude.
Assuming 0.5V/Div. 4V over the whole screen...
8 bit resolution
1.00 V
1.02
1.04
1.06
12-bit resolution - about 1 more decimal place, which will be noise. :)
1.000 V
1.00125
1.0025
1.00373
1.005
I'm not sure if the Siglent uses real data or screen pictures for the on-screen measurements,
It uses the 0-255 values for the Y auto measurements, values 13-243 (1/2 Div off the top or bottom of the screen) are useable.
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- There is no 12 bit mode on the rigol, the rigol is a 12 bit scope..
Right.
Anyhow.. Bugger. A weak FFT and no bode plots kinda break the deal. Let's wait and see what a statistically significant population of new owners say; particularly about bugs.
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They don't specifically want someone to hack it, because all the component designators are missing. I don't know why, because there is plenty of space for them. The debug people would be peeved. Speaking of which the board lacks test points. Clearly they don't do ICT and probably do minimal testing.
The track layout seems really good, with length tuning and differential pair impedance control.
Their pin 1 markers are inconsistent. Some are missing from IC's. I almost always use triangles as pin 1 markers. Much better than round dots for a number of reasons: Readability, prevent ambiguity, distinguishes from fly vomit and test points and vias.
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I hate to ask, but has anyone found the 12 bits yet?
Resolution of the auto measurements? 3200 'steps' vs. 200 'steps' over the screen height should be noticable.
Anyone Stopped a 1 to 1.5 Div. sine wave, and then tried to Y expand the stopped waveform to see if any more resolution appears, rather than just some of the original 200 screen pixels Y stretched.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/50hz-signal-on-oscilloscope-probe/?action=dlattach;attach=267109;image)
Here is 1 division and 1/2 division 5Vpp sine wave stopped and expanded.
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0.5Vpp signal captured on 2V/div range and expanded.
The scope stop at 20mV/div expansion, it won't let you select lower than that. So looks like it's smart enough to know there is no extra data beyond that, so no point looking blocky like you showed above. Very nice.
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Here is 1 division and 1/2 division 5Vpp sine wave stopped and expanded.
Really ?
Prerelease SDS1204X HD
1 Mhz, 5V p-p, Stop and zoom in.
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Here is 1 division and 1/2 division 5Vpp sine wave stopped and expanded.
Really ?
Prerelease SDS1204X HD
1 Mhz, 5V p-p, Stop and zoom in.
Yes, showing the extra resolution available on the vertical from 1 div high capture as requested.
If you are talking about the noise, it's from a Siglent sig gen, straight coax, no 50ohm termination.
Can experiment more tomorrow, the point is to show the 12bit resolution is indeed available.
And a brief headroom check with an off-screen sine showed it doesn't have much headroom, not even one vertical setting.
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Some more for comparison...now at 1V p-p
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Some more for comparison...now at 1V p-p
How was the second photo produced ?
An 8-bit oscilloscope will not have had the info to create what you have in the second image from the information captured in the first image.
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And a brief headroom check with an off-screen sine showed it doesn't have much headroom, not even one vertical setting.
That is as expected as the 12bit (4096) resolution is divided by 10 and displayed on 400 pixels so there is very little that will not fit on the screen rounded to 10 pixels.
You can do a 10x vertical zoom and you still have 1:1 pixel mapping.
Edit: actually looking at the image it seems they have 412 pixels for the waveform so there should be nothing outside the display area.
Not sure what that not released SDS1204X-HD is but it will need to be a 12bit oscilloscope to work as it is claimed in the above posts. The second photo can of course be generated by changing the vertical resolution while in run mode then stop and take the photo.
So is either a 12bit oscilloscope or image was captured incorrectly.
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The DHO814's x20 of a stopped waveform looks better than I was expecting. :)
The SDS1204XHD's screen plotting is higher resolution, might be better, diffcult to tell with the different speeds and rendering.
DHO814's waveform plotting area is 1000 x 412 pixels, the SDS1204XHD's is 844 x 480.
Don't know the SDS1204XHD's price.
I can't see the dark green.
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Timebase seems to be 200µs/div in one screenshot and 200ns/div in the other. Hard to compare in any meaningful way.
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Regarding the last posts here about the 12 bit resolution and what role the screen plays in this:
Can you read about this somewhere, is there some kind of "white paper" ?
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Some more for comparison...now at 1V p-p
How was the second photo produced ?
Vertical zoom of the first of course.
An 8-bit oscilloscope will not have had the info to create what you have in the second image from the information captured in the first image.
They were from a prerelease 12 bit SDS1204X HD.
SDS1204XHD is £4k. :o
It won't be. Don't confuse it with SDS2000X HD models.
I can't see the dark green.
Sorry, but I prefer it for its trace sharpness.
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It won't be. Don't confuse it with SDS2000X HD models.
You're right i was. :palm: I can't find a price for that one.
I quite like thin traces, but can barely see dark green or dark blue on black.
If I swap some of the dark green for the same brighter green as the C4 it's fine. :P
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Trace colors are free choosable on all siglent touchscreen models, I'm pretty sure that will be the case with the new 1000X HD as well.
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It won't be. Don't confuse it with SDS2000X HD models.
You're right i was. :palm: I can't find a price for that one.
You won't, we don't even know until a week or 2 before official release. :(
Best we can do is have an educated guess and you will find such discussion in the SDS1000X HD thread.
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They were from a prerelease 12 bit SDS1204X HD.
OK that make sense if it is a 12bit oscilloscope. So it seem there will be more choice available tho I doubt there will be any under $500 12bit 4 channel available anytime soon.
The DHO814's x20 of a stopped waveform looks better than I was expecting. :)
The SDS1204XHD's screen plotting is higher resolution, might be better, diffcult to tell with the different speeds and rendering.
DHO814's waveform plotting area is 1000 x 412 pixels, the SDS1204XHD's is 844 x 480.
Don't know the SDS1204XHD's price.
I can't see the dark green.
It will not make sense to do more than 10x zoom with a 12bit oscilloscope.
Since both oscilloscopes are 12bit the resolution will be the same is all about the noise.
I'm sure both can do 1000 pixels on x but is a bit strange they chose 480 means they use divide by 8 instead of by 10.
The SDS1204X HD is likely equivalent to Rigol DHO1204
DHO804 is $399 vs DHO1074 $999 and likely lowest cost SDS1xx4X HD will be around the same $1000
I can not justify $1000 for the DHO1074 when DHO804 is $400. The smaller size and USB input power are a plus for my use case.
There was no much interest up to now on 12bit scopes because they where in a very different price bracket.
8 bit will still have its place for better horizontal resolution as you can have a faster 8bit ADC and 8bit takes less space in memory.
One thing I notice is that Rigol uses antialiasing for both text and graph while Siglent is not.
That also explain why they need 412 pixels instead of 410.
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For use with the DHO900 (and hopefully the DHO800 after a few mods?) I've created a new v3.1 of the 16-channel LA clone board that is cheaper to make and easier to hand-solder:
https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/ (https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/)
The PCB has dual footprints for the quad-channel SN65LVDS391, so you can use SOIC or TSSOP packages depending on which is cheaper (or available in stock).
KiCad source files included, as are GERBERs and BOMs for LCSC & Mouser. Should be around US$15 incl components and PCB.
!! I haven't tested it !! My shiny new scope hasn't arrived yet...
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Some more diy:
https://youtu.be/MbBq1AVIQAc?si=P2TCHVbFpOiuOEis
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Some more diy:
https://youtu.be/MbBq1AVIQAc?si=P2TCHVbFpOiuOEis
Spectacular! :clap: :clap:
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Some more diy:
https://youtu.be/MbBq1AVIQAc?si=P2TCHVbFpOiuOEis
That's some quality work.
(I wonder how long the battery lasts though...)
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21700 batteries, 1hour he wrote..
https://github.com/LorenceChen/DHO800_BatteryPack
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21700 batteries, 1hour he wrote..
OK. :-+
I thought they were 16850s and were only going to last 20 minutes or so.
I'd have made a 3D printed bracket to hold a big USB powerbank, but that's just me. His is much prettier. :)
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its such a small device, but such a high idle power draw. so to get a decent battery life i would suggest hotswap powertool battery interface. however then you have an added problem of having to shutdown inbetween swapping the empty battery for a fresh battery. once it falls down below servicable voltage level.
another consideration is (for a typical 20v or 40v power tool battery)... how to do the step down for keeping a good clean enough power. if the scope internally can handle and filter noise without the burden being so much on the battery pack itself. to keep good measurement performance within the scope readings.
and then testing all that to know and verify you are aware how reliable the scope readings can be trusted on such step down battery source.
so those are the set of challenge for integrating that. to take the makita lxt or xgt battery packs... but is it overall feasible option compared to the other previously discussed options? the set of trade offs.
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added problem of having to shutdown inbetween swapping the empty battery for a fresh battery.
That's easy...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1871722;image)
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That's easy...
Or just plug in the power supply?
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ok then for the physical aspects. for power tool battery that does then require 2 adapter interfaces. with enough room around periphery to accommodate different sized (different capacity) battery packs. which is then sizing and placement considerations
given how small this scope is then really thats 1 on either side then i guess? with a frame around the whole thing. or maybe both underneath / underslung at bottom is the other realistic option. again with a sort of exo-skeleton camera style frame.
and when not vesa mounted... to remove 1 battery would be to have either open frame. or a kickstand, or 'screw in leg(s)' on one or both sides to stop it falling over.
however when vesa mounted then such a frame would not really be needed. or if you made an overhanging? stand that is mounted onto the vesa. that then has a generous overhang to give room underneath. (i forget the right words).
above the scope would also be an option but idk who would really prefer that location or why it would be better. anyhow keeping back area clear for cooling + vesa mounting + all of the other rear connections.
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That's easy...
Or just plug in the power supply?
I think the point of battery power is that you don't have one.
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Some more diy:
https://youtu.be/MbBq1AVIQAc?si=P2TCHVbFpOiuOEis
Wow :clap:
If I was to do it I'd use standard camera batteries like say the Sony NW-F970. But they would protrude a lot.
So just an off the shelf battery bank would work a treat with a suitable mounting, but it woudl block the airflow vents.
The one pictured here is so perfect in terms of form factor that Rigol should manufacture it.
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That's easy...
Or just plug in the power supply?
I think the point of battery power is that you don't have one.
I have not experienced many field swappable battery powered instruments that remain powered. Is that Tek unique? And for an o-scope?
But the first thing I thought of for this app was a 10+k mah battery bank. Bummer... I do like the notion of 90Wh laptop packs.
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I see that my DHO804 ordered from Aliexpress was shipped (I did not expected it will be shipped so soon).
Yes due to high power consumption a small battery will not last long. Lucky mine will be connected to the 24V house battery that is many kWh so not an issue :) just need a step down DC-DC converter. I will keep the DS1054z to make a comparison before selling it.
If you need some specific comparison ask and I will try to do if possible.
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Some more diy:
https://youtu.be/MbBq1AVIQAc?si=P2TCHVbFpOiuOEis
Spectacular! :clap: :clap:
And 'upgraded' !
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The usb-c powerback makes sense for simplicity. But then can you hotswap them with the scope running?
So having an adapter, with dual power tool batteries for the continuus running. Can recharge them rapidly (before the other battery runs out), and also their sizes are not restricted to 100wh for legal reasons (unlike other solutions). For example a typical 5ah Makita LXT is indeed about 100wh (which is the same size as the largest laptop battery can be)... however you can also get even larger ones. Or some smaller ones. And it's a good reuse for the environment to share batteries across devices.
What i doesn't offer though is LiFeO4 cells, which would indeed be even better for the environment. These solutions could all be researched a bit further.
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Well mine arrived in 9 days. Good guy Aliexpress undervalued the scope in customs form thus lowering import tax. Total cost (including shipping and tax) was $582 CAD or $429 USD. Rigol Canada lists price at $527 CAD before shipping and tax.
Scope is tiny and the multi grid layout is pretty good but not as versatile as lecroy's grid layout options.
FFT update speed is faster than MSO5K, boots up a bit faster as well. Color graded FFT is still garbage, just a marketing gimmick. Color grading is not as good as MSO5K, might be due to waveform update speed.
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Well mine arrived in 9 days. Good guy Aliexpress undervalued the scope in customs form thus lowering import tax. Total cost (including shipping and tax) was $582 CAD or $429 USD. Rigol Canada lists price at $527 CAD before shipping and tax.
Mine will end up 569.32 CAD + 31.25CAD = 600.57 CAD so around 443USD. Just paid the import tax today but I think parcel is still in China and will arive with UPS that means I will need to arrange a pickup as address is a PO Box.
I guess color grading may be worse due to the way they interpret the 12bit data vs just 8bit.
I have a DSA815-TG so not that interested in the FFT capability.
Edit: Just checked the Rigol Canada and it showed the shipping as free so with Tax for Saskatchewan I will have saved maybe about 15CAD but it is not relevant.
I will get half the cost by selling the DS1054Z but I want to compare them first mostly the 12bit vs 8bit part to see what the usable ADC resolution is in both cases.
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Some more diy:
https://youtu.be/MbBq1AVIQAc?si=P2TCHVbFpOiuOEis (https://youtu.be/MbBq1AVIQAc?si=P2TCHVbFpOiuOEis)
dears! I can't share your initial delight - there are several errors in this design
the place where RIGOL's honeycomb-shaped ventilation holes and the printed structure located on top with honeycomb passages do not match - and is also too high - this will certainly impede the circulation of heat flows inside RIGOL
a small modification will correct and improve the entire design
From this design it is necessary to remove the central part of the honeycomb of such a size that a 120 mm fan will fit exactly into the free space! If it works by blowing outward - at a low speed close to very quiet noise - then Rigol will thank you - you can leave this space free from the fan - but still this part should not contain honeycombs
the second question - this may not be confirmed - what kind of interference will the inductor installed on the additional board of the DC-DC converter have?
because all this can make a lot of noise
this article is useful to read
https://www.radiokot.ru/circuit/analog/measure/31/ (https://www.radiokot.ru/circuit/analog/measure/31/)
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My opinion is that the entire rear plastic cover should be removed totally. And then the drilling of holes directly into the large die cast aluminum heatsink, to screw in some decent sized standoffs (between m4 - m6). To restore mechanical mounting points that isn't just relying on plastics thanks all the same...
This can then give with long enough standoffs the necessary room behind for mounting proper sized fan etc. And you can still have vesa mounting capability at 100mm x 100mm spacing... just drill your holes accurately. And basically you end up with a familiar extendable cage standoffs design. That we should all recognize in other equipment.
For the noise interference from power source: This is indeed a great question and concern. To compare against the stock power supply (lite-on?) that Rigol includes with the scope itself. And also check how the power is filtered coming in. Perhaps it's a good idea to then re-test the scope with alternative different power source. Whether it's a custom made battery pack. Or otherwise any random usb-c power banks from china - not all is as good as each other. And some is total garbage.
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You may print out the entire back of the enclosure new, optimized for 120mm fan and for improved air flow, with new vesa mount, etc.
For sensitive measurements in your lab you may use a linear psu, for example.
But there are switchers on the motherboard as well, afaik, how they affect the noise floor is a question too..
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For use with the DHO900 (and hopefully the DHO800 after a few mods?) I've created a new v3.1 of the 16-channel LA clone board that is cheaper to make and easier to hand-solder:
https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/ (https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/)
Would there be any interest in a version that also clones the RPL1116 LA for DS1000Z Plus scopes? I think it is just the case of adding a 68-pin socket next to the 50-pin, so the same PCB could support either/both. I'd appreciate help in identifying the exact socket and cable.
Thanks
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FFT update speed is faster than MSO5K
FFT looks semi-decent, especially with multi-windowing.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1872925;image)
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Aliexpress is out of stock of dho814. Where i can get now? Cant wait to experience 12bit..
We're all waiting in line. Go to the back of the queue. :)
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Aliexpress is out of stock of dho814. Where i can get now? Cant wait to experience 12bit..
We're all waiting in line. Go to the back of the queue. :)
My 804 shipped on Monday ;D bit nervous about how much I'll get stung for once it hits UK customs.
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Not for me, but I can see the merits.
If I can bring in wishes, I would love a cheap replacement for the HO3508 probe (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-there-a-modern-replacement-for-the-ho3508-la-probe/msg5029951/#msg5029951).
Would there be any interest in a version that also clones the RPL1116 LA for DS1000Z Plus scopes? I think it is just the case of adding a 68-pin socket next to the 50-pin, so the same PCB could support either/both. I'd appreciate help in identifying the exact socket and cable.
Thanks
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My 804 shipped on Monday ;D bit nervous about how much I'll get stung for once it hits UK customs.
From China? Be sure to let us know how much... :popcorn:
Do they charge sales tax in advance for UK?
Or does the UK have similar rules to Europe where anything over 150 Euros is dealt with by customs in the destination country.
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One question about the fan...
Does it blow air out the back or does it suck air in and blow it across the heat sink, guided by the fins?
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One question about the fan...
Does it blow air out the back or does it suck air in and blow it across the heat sink, guided by the fins?
:o Can't be blowing air out!
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I teardown DHO914S The point is on the AFG module, if it is possible to copy it and install it to DHO900 or DHO800?
AFG core chip is AD9744.
I'm probably a bit mad to attempt this, but I've started trying to reverse engineer the AFG module in KiCad (!) Just the component placements on the front+back sides of the PCB so far, schematic with resistor values (no routing) and a spreadsheet of the components I've identified, or my best guesses given the markings.
I've uploaded all my files to the new Hacking the Rigol DHO800/900 Scope thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5074783/#msg5074783 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5074783/#msg5074783)
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I'm probably a bit mad to attempt this, but I've started trying to reverse engineer the AFG module (!) Just the component placements on the front side of the PCB so far (no schematic or routing) and I've attached a spreadsheet of the components I've identified, or my best guesses given the markings.
Rectangular QFN with MPPX marking is a power module (DC-DC converter with integrated inductor) by MPS, this one: https://www.monolithicpower.com/en/mpm3630.html (https://www.monolithicpower.com/en/mpm3630.html) I've recently been working with a similar module, so I recognized the part immediately.
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One question about the fan...
Does it blow air out the back or does it suck air in and blow it across the heat sink, guided by the fins?
:o Can't be blowing air out!
That's what I thought - it looks like there's a big gap between the fan and the back of the case which make no sense if it's blowing.
I just wanted somebody to confirm it one way or the other.
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Out of curiosity I looked at the firmware update.
It is a *.GEL file that you can open with 7ZIP without problem.
The file within can then be extracted again with 7ZIP and you get the folder structure of the whole update file.
The update routine includes this folder with the update scripts:
Directory of DHO800_DHO900(Software)Update\Root\shell
13/09/2023 17:44 <DIR> .
13/09/2023 17:08 <DIR> ..
29/03/2023 09:37 512 bootApp.sh
29/03/2023 09:37 659 copy_logs_to_udisk.sh
20/06/2023 12:47 8,079 do_extract.sh
08/06/2023 03:46 1,798 do_update.sh
29/03/2023 09:37 645 force_update_gel.sh
29/03/2023 09:37 1,027 load_pcie.sh
20/06/2023 12:47 1,427 reload_fpga.sh
05/07/2023 08:16 97 restartScope.sh
20/06/2023 12:47 5,362 start_rigol_app.sh
9 File(s) 19,606 bytes
The main app is the Sparow.apk. Looking at it with a HEX-Editor, I found this:
License file detected
License invalid. Remaining attempts: 1
License invalid. Remaining attempts: 2
License invalid. Remaining attempts: 3
License invalid. Remaining attempts: 4
License invalid. Remaining attempts: 5
License invalid. Remaining attempts: 6
License invalid. Remaining attempts: 7
License invalid. Remaining attempts: 8
License invalid. Remaining attempts: 9
...
This function requires the following license:
...
Also, it seems that the licenses are stored in "LICENSE.txt".
It should be possible to edit "copy_logs_to_udisk.sh":
#!/system/bin/bash
echo "...... ifconfig ......"
ifconfig
udisk_mount_dir=$(ls -d1 /mnt/media_rw/* 2> /dev/null | head -n 1)
if [[ x"${udisk_mount_dir}" == x"" || ! -d ${udisk_mount_dir} ]]; then
echo "Does not exist U-Disk !"
exit 2
fi
target_log_dir=${udisk_mount_dir}/$(date "+%Y.%m.%d_%H.%M.%S")
# target_log_dir=/data/UserData/logs_for_debug/$(date "+%Y.%m.%d_%H.%M.%S")
echo mkdir -p ${target_log_dir}
mkdir -p ${target_log_dir}
echo cp -r /data/logs/tools_log ${target_log_dir}
cp -r /data/logs/tools_log ${target_log_dir}
# chown -R system:system /data/UserData/logs_for_debug
rm -f ${udisk_mount_dir}/fetch_sparrow_logs.txt
sync
In order to add a line like
cp -r /data ${target_log_dir}
The goal is to copy the whole data folder (and its sub-folders) to the attached USB disk. This might be the wrong folder, but with a bit of trial & error one should be able to get to see the LICENSE.txt file. I wonder if the options are in plain text...
Disclaimer: I don't own this device and I am not looking forward to buy one (I have the DS1054Z which is more than I will ever need). These are just my thoughts and ideas, they might break you brand new device.
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Also, it seems that the licenses are stored in "LICENSE.txt".
That's probably the "free" options, if your scope came with any.
I don't think there are any options for the DHO800 but the firmware is for all models and (eg.) the DHO4000 can have extra memory, power analysis and serial decoders. If the serial decoders are free then they'll put a license.txt on the SD card to enable them.
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I'll be happy if my DHO804 can be made into a DHO814 with 50MPts of memory.
I'm not sure I'd want to enable 250Mhz bandwidth with this sample rate.
(Not unless the scope can drop the sample rate if more than 2 channels are enabled. THAT would be a very sensible thing to do, and it should be perfectly possible. There's no mention of it in the manual though.)
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I am a Java/Kotlin software developer and like some of the folks here my hobby is electronics, mainly microcontrollers stuff (pic18,pic24,pic32) and PCBs, also opened firmware update file and successfully decompiled the APKs, I have some experience with Android development so with that code and some effort you can compile your own modified APK and run it on the scope, I think everything is open in the scope to do that. Looking quickly at the code I think Sparrow.apk is all the GUI stuff, that should be communicating with the FPGA, is interesting to analyze the code because we can reverse engineer the communication between APK and FPGA so we can run custom apps on the scope.
In the screenshots, you can see some code to render the data on the screen, another thing to notice is that Rigol did not bother to obfuscate the code. :-DD
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another thing to notice is that Rigol did not bother to obfuscate the code. :-DD
There is no reason for them to obfuscate the code. You can have it, there is nothing useful you can do with it. In fact, it is in their best interest to have this code out there available for hacking. If someone comes up with better software that makes their hardware more popular, they only benefit from that.
Having custom ASICs gives you a lot of freedom to not care about copy protection.
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I am not able to follow all the posts. Has it been already confirmed, that DHO800 offers only 1MPts with 4 channels and this is solely software crippling?
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They can pretty trivially stop firmware flashing hacks dead with some mild implementation of HW enforced auth and such via a TPM equivalent. I'm pretty sure a Nintendo DS had more in depth hardware protection than an oscilloscope. It's just not worth the time to do.
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I am not able to follow all the posts. Has it been already confirmed, that DHO800 offers only 1MPts with 4 channels and this is solely software crippling?
Scroll back to reply #305 in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5046208/#msg5046208 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5046208/#msg5046208)
But as I said before, we need someone to confirm only 1MPts in all channel mode. That first.
I just tested it. 4CH or 3CH mode is only 1M maximum. 2CH is 10M maximum. 1CH is 25M.
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I am not able to follow all the posts. Has it been already confirmed, that DHO800 offers only 1MPts with 4 channels and this is solely software crippling?
Confirmed here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5046208/?topicseen#msg5046208 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5046208/?topicseen#msg5046208)
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The DHO800 and DHO900 are built on the same basic platform as the HDO1000 right? This would mean that Rigol can use the same code base for all scopes on this new platform. A common code base should mean fewer bugs for new products. I am looking forward to seeing if this is the case.
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Found a hidden debug mode in the utility menu that can be enabled if you tap the About button several times. This unlocks more options in the Other and the SelfCal tabs and a new Debug tab. Not sure if it has other effects.
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I am not able to follow all the posts. Has it been already confirmed, that DHO800 offers only 1MPts with 4 channels and this is solely software crippling?
Yes.
But... there's no reason it can't be hacked to 5MPts/channel like the DHO900. The RAM inside is the same and people have loaded the HDO900 firmware on a DHO800 and enabled 50MPts memory.
I'm sure a hack will appear a few days after these start to be delivered at the end of the month.
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Found a hidden debug mode in the utility menu that can be enabled if you tap the About button several times. This unlocks more options in the Other and the SelfCal tabs and a new Debug tab. Not sure if it has other effects.
It might enable ADB control over USB - no need to open it up and use serial comms to hack it! :)
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The DHO800 and DHO900 are built on the same basic platform as the HDO1000 right? This would mean that Rigol can use the same code base for all scopes on this new platform. A common code base should mean fewer bugs for new products. I am looking forward to seeing if this is the case.
I don't know if it's exactly the same files but the chipset, UI and software functions are identical.
The main difference between 800 and 1000 is in the screen size, bandwidth and memory size.
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The DHO800 and DHO900 are built on the same basic platform as the HDO1000 right? This would mean that Rigol can use the same code base for all scopes on this new platform. A common code base should mean fewer bugs for new products. I am looking forward to seeing if this is the case.
I don't know if it's exactly the same files but the chipset, UI and software functions are identical.
The main difference between 800 and 1000 is in the screen size, bandwidth and memory size.
So, does that mean the possible future hack may increase the sample rate to 2 GSa/s as well?
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So, does that mean the possible future hack may increase the sample rate to 2 GSa/s as well?
I wouldn't count on it.
It's the same ADC as the 1000 series but the 800's FPGA probably can't process that much extra data.
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The DHO800 and DHO900 are built on the same basic platform as the HDO1000 right? This would mean that Rigol can use the same code base for all scopes on this new platform. A common code base should mean fewer bugs for new products. I am looking forward to seeing if this is the case.
I don't know if it's exactly the same files but the chipset, UI and software functions are identical.
The main difference between 800 and 1000 is in the screen size, bandwidth and memory size.
So, does that mean the possible future hack may increase the sample rate to 2 GSa/s as well?
how robust should this scope be if booting from SD card? I had lots of problems with devices that use this type of card from GPS, PHOTO CAMERAS, SMARTPHONE, etc
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replay: Aliexpress is out of stock of dho814. Where i can get now? Cant wait to experience 12bit..
It just sends 12 V without negotiation.
Of course that's unacceptable and dangerous. But Fungus ended up with a generic quote about USB-C and 12V which is, at least, misleading.
I assumed people would have read the post a couple above mine.
Here's the pic, in case anybody else was confused:
[img removed to save space, just follow the link]
12V directly into a USB connector. No data lines, no negotiation.
(not to mention what looks like a simple linear regulator)
could be a good thing, meaning we can connect directly the red+black wire to the 12V SLA/Lion/LiPo pack, no need destructable smps/linear semiconductors.
Some more diy:
https://youtu.be/MbBq1AVIQAc?si=P2TCHVbFpOiuOEis (https://youtu.be/MbBq1AVIQAc?si=P2TCHVbFpOiuOEis)
Wow :clap:
If I was to do it I'd use standard camera batteries like say the Sony NW-F970. But they would protrude a lot.
So just an off the shelf battery bank would work a treat with a suitable mounting, but it woudl block the airflow vents.
The one pictured here is so perfect in terms of form factor that Rigol should manufacture it.
i think one potential candidate is this $0.40 3S 20A Li-ion Lithium Battery 18650 Charger PCB BMS Protection Board 12.6V Cell 59x20x3.4mm Module (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32832824307.html) i currently waiting 6pcs i ordered for something else, before i'm aware of this DHO800 model from your teardown video.
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It's the same ADC as the 1000 series but the 800's FPGA probably can't process that much extra data.
But what about DHA900?
Also found another difference from their specifications:
DHA800 and DHA1000 have a sensitivity range of 500 μV/div to 10 V/div
but DHA900 has a range of 200 μV/div to 10 V/div
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It's the same ADC as the 1000 series but the 800's FPGA probably can't process that much extra data.
But what about DHA900?
Also found another difference from their specifications:
DHA800 and DHA1000 have a sensitivity range of 500 μV/div to 10 V/div
but DHA900 has a range of 200 μV/div to 10 V/div
That is just a magnification of the 1mV range. And Rigol says to use at least 8mV/div for measurements. Read the fine print.
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It's the same ADC as the 1000 series but the 800's FPGA probably can't process that much extra data.
But what about DHA900?
Also found another difference from their specifications:
DHA800 and DHA1000 have a sensitivity range of 500 μV/div to 10 V/div
but DHA900 has a range of 200 μV/div to 10 V/div
That is just a magnification of the 1mV range. And Rigol says to use at least 8mV/div for measurements. Read the fine print.
Datasheet says to us 1mV/div (8mv full scale). Screen has 8 vertical divisions.
1mV/div is hardware sensitivity for them all, including 800/900/1000/4000.
They all use same frontend preamp chip...
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I poked around looking for prior 8bit vs 12bit discussions but couldn't find as many on topic as I expected... My gut says obviously 12bit is better than 8bit, but I seem to recall many folks saying that given the size of the display you'd be hard pressed to differentiate much improvement on the screen.
But the biggest thing is the single ADC - the Siglent SDS1104X-E has dual 1G sampling, so 4 channels at 500M. If I understand correctly, the new Rigol's are 1.25G X 1 and then get divided down the more channels you use. It seems like a higher sampling rate might offer more benefits compared to larger bit depth for hobby use?
Still - great to see this level of performance coming at such competitive pricing. And the possibility of portable power is always welcomed.
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1mV/div is hardware sensitivity for them all, including 800/900/1000/4000.
They all use same frontend preamp chip...
Yes but they're measuring with 12 bits so a little bit of magnification should be OK.
(You can't see 12 bit resolution on a 600-pixel tall screen anyway)
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But the biggest thing is the single ADC - the Siglent SDS1104X-E has dual 1G sampling, so 4 channels at 500M.
Siglent is 200MHz so it needs more sample rate.
The DHO900 is a bit of a mystery. It obviously doesn't have high enough sample rate for 4 channels @ 200Mhz so it seems like it's going to alias badly if you feed it a 200Mhz signal with four channels enabled.
It does have a 100Mhz filter for the front end (for 100Mhz/200Mhz model selection), it would be a genius move by Rigol to turn that on when appropriate but I don't see any indication of that in the manual.
PS: The Siglent won't be 100% perfect, it's known to have an analog bandwidth higher than 200MHz so 500MS/sec is on the limit.
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The DHO900 is a bit of a mystery. It obviously doesn't have high enough sample rate for 4 channels @ 200Mhz so it seems like it's going to alias badly if you feed it a 200Mhz signal with four channels enabled.
I was really thinking about the DHO800 series as the hype seems to be claiming them as the new budget king. No doubt they are a good value, but I'm not convinced they stomp Siglent considering that the DHO814 is the same price as Siglent's SDS1104X-E, which has a few options such as AWG, Bode Plot and digital LA that the Rigol DHO800 doesn't offer. Bode Plot in particular can be handy for working on analog filter circuits like crossovers and audio analysis.
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Well i 1st got interested in these because they are an even cheaper way of obtaining the missing Rigol asic for to transplant into DHO1000 series. Because to have at 300-400 bucks makes it pretty attractive cost-wise.
However there are several challenges for that. And while it looks plausible (in theory) nobody has yet seriously expressed a solid interest or tried attempting this feat... at least not yet.
But why attractive to use it to upgrade the 1074 with? ...well because 300 bucks is a similar sort of price point for many other software unlocks for mid range category scope upgrade options (after purchased). Across many vendors not just Rigol.
But the difference is a lower initial entrypoint cost for getting started with a lower spec.'d scope in the first place. Whether DHO1000 first, or the 800 first (either way around), either of those hardware upgrade paths are still significantly cheaper in terms of the initial layout costs. Rather than to buy some endgame scope. And when you get your DHO800, 900, or 1000. It's an open upgrade path. You are not pre-committed to actually taking that route from the outset. Rather you can decide down the road. If and when it becomes a more attractive prospect. This avoids buying dillemmas, and other difficulties in justifying initial outlay cost. In particular when you also need to spend at least as much (or more in aggregate) on other pieces of equipment.
But totally unconnected from that... merely the fact that the 900 exists at all, as an MSO / mixed signal with the LA digital inputs. This then gives some reasonable hopes or expectations of a respin on the DHO1000 series for an MSO variant. Surely that would also be kindda interesting thing to see coming out too. That you would expect (technology wise) because both being on such a similar shared platform. That the release timeframe should not be that far aways from right now. Because what extra challenges to overcome? --> doesn't seem so much now with 900 existing and being sold.
And in the grander scheme of things, that would (or should) be Rigol's answer in this competitive space to the SDS 2k+. Which IS mixed signal. And itself comes with some better built in AWG too. i.e. more like MSO5000 product replacement.
I do like the comparison to SDS1100X-E though. That is kindda important to bear in mind too... very good scope itself just no custom ASIC on Siglent side to compete with (to answer in future with a 12-bits). As was already previously discussed.
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I was really thinking about the DHO800 series as the hype seems to be claiming them as the new budget king. No doubt they are a good value, but I'm not convinced they stomp Siglent considering that the DHO814 is the same price as Siglent's SDS1104X-E.
Who buys a DHO814 when the DHO804 is hackable?
(and only 30Mhz less even if you don't hack it - Rigol has been smart in not making the base model 50Mhz this time around)
Plus: You get a touch screen, more portability, HDMI, multi-windowing... lots of things the Siglent doesn't have. It's not all about paper specifications.
Once you've tried a touch screen (or mouse) then using a twisty knob for navigation is a complete joke. I went from a Rigol DS1054Z to a Micsig and I'd never go back even though the Rigol can do more things.
I do like the comparison to SDS1100X-E though. That is kindda important to bear in mind too... very good scope itself just no custom ASIC on Siglent side to compete with (to answer in future with a 12-bits). As was already previously discussed.
We're comparing apples to oranges IMHO. The attraction and bullet-points are different.
Me? I think we're at a "smartphone vs. flip-phone" point in the evolution of oscilloscopes. The writing is on the wall for old fashioned devices.
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Who buys a DHO814 when the DHO804 is hackable?
(and only 30Mhz less even if you don't hack it - Rigol has been smart in not making the base model 50Mhz this time around)
Plus: You get a touch screen, more portability, HDMI, multi-windowing... lots of things the Siglent doesn't have. It's not all about paper specifications.
Once you've tried a touch screen (or mouse) then using a twisty knob for navigation is a complete joke. I went from a Rigol DS1054Z to a Micsig and I'd never go back even though the Rigol can do more things.
I'm certainly going to do my best to hack my DHO804 into a DHO924S, with the logic analyser and AFG. But even if I fail, I can still get a useful bandwidth boost with the firmware hack.
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I'm certainly going to do my best to hack my DHO804 into a DHO924S, with the logic analyser and AFG. But even if I fail, I can still get a useful bandwidth boost with the firmware hack.
It's going to be interesting to see if that's as simple as soldering on a connector and cutting a hole in the case.
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I'm still wondering if the chipset's audo is brought out to a pad or a header pin anywhere on the PCB.
Being able to turn this vertically and use it as a MAME arcade machine would be very, very cool.
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I'm certainly going to do my best to hack my DHO804 into a DHO924S, with the logic analyser and AFG. But even if I fail, I can still get a useful bandwidth boost with the firmware hack.
It's going to be interesting to see if that's as simple as soldering on a connector and cutting a hole in the case.
For the LA it might be! the big question is what are those 2 missing BGA memory chips used for? Surely they aren't dedicated for the LA to work? I'm guessing/hoping that without them fitted, the LA memory depth will be quite limited in a hacked DHO800 compared to the DHO900.
The AFG needs a plugin PCB cloned. It has a lot of passives, but so far I haven't found any expensive/unique components, so the BOM cost could be pretty low. For the effort involved, it would make more sense to buy a separate AFG... but where would the fun in that be? ;)
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I was really thinking about the DHO800 series as the hype seems to be claiming them as the new budget king. No doubt they are a good value, but I'm not convinced they stomp Siglent considering that the DHO814 is the same price as Siglent's SDS1104X-E.
Who buys a DHO814 when the DHO804 is hackable?
My bad - I didn't realize that had been demonstrated yet.
And no doubt the DHO800 is great for the consumer. It certainly raises the bar for inexpensive high performance gear, and will no doubt influence competitors to bring other gear to the market.
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I poked around looking for prior 8bit vs 12bit discussions but couldn't find as many on topic as I expected... My gut says obviously 12bit is better than 8bit, but I seem to recall many folks saying that given the size of the display you'd be hard pressed to differentiate much improvement on the screen.
But the biggest thing is the single ADC - the Siglent SDS1104X-E has dual 1G sampling, so 4 channels at 500M. If I understand correctly, the new Rigol's are 1.25G X 1 and then get divided down the more channels you use. It seems like a higher sampling rate might offer more benefits compared to larger bit depth for hobby use?
Still - great to see this level of performance coming at such competitive pricing. And the possibility of portable power is always welcomed.
I will attempt a comparison with a digital photocamera
The resolution of an oscilloscope is made out of ADC resolution on vertical so 8bit (256pixels) or 12bit (4096pixels) and sample rate on horizontal 1Gsps (1 billion) or 1.25Gsps (1.25billion)
So same as you can not see the full resolution of the camera sensor on the small build in preview LCD you can not see the full 12bit resolution unless you have an 8K screen (8000x4000pixels) but the information is available in the camera and oscilloscope memory and you can take that out and watch it on a large screen or zoom around on a smaller screen to see the details in some parts of the photo/waveform.
So the LCD resolution on an oscilloscope is about as irrelevant as the LCD screen on a photo-camera.
Now for for the 4 channel that will be equivalent to 4 lenses on a single photo camera that can be oriented in any direction and the ADC will be the sensor.
If you have a single sensor 4096 x 1 250 000 000 pixels then when you want to use a single lens you have access to entire resolution with two lenses half on the horizontal for each and 3 or all 4 just a quarter.
If you have two ADC/sensors each with 256 x 1 000 000 000 pixels then when you use a lens you have a lower resolution as it can project on only one of those sensors and resolution will be lower than on the Rigol.
When all 4 channel's are used then each can see 256 x 500 000 000 pixels on that Siglent and that is better on horizontal but not on vertical 4096 x 312 500 000
At 70 or 100Mhz it will not make much of a difference if you have 500Msps or 312.5Msps but if you are interested in the vertical resolution then 4096 will be quite a bit more than 256.
You can always turn off the other 3 channels and then you still have slightly better horizontal resolution with 1.25Gsps vs 1Gsps
In therms of capturing a waveform you will be limited by the available memory for the horizontal.
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what are those 2 missing BGA memory chips used for? Surely they aren't dedicated for the LA to work?
Almost certainly they are. It has been demonstrated/alleged that the 900 series image can be installed on the 800's hardware and doing so gives rise to the full max. memory depth of 50Mpts for the analogue channels. If that's so, then the analogue section acquisition memory must be entirely internal to the FPGA. That only leaves these external DRAMs the role of LA sample memory and/or lower-rate application memory (maybe the Bode application, AWG?)
See: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4978852/#msg4978852 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4978852/#msg4978852)
I'm guessing/hoping that without them fitted, the LA memory depth will be quite limited in a hacked DHO800 compared to the DHO900.
And based on the above, my guess is that without them fitted, there's simply no LA functionality, period.
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Once you've tried a touch screen (or mouse) then using a twisty knob for navigation is a complete joke.
Some people will find it preferable to play with knobs though over just touching.
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This thing is badly in need of a good and thorough review. A lot of people seem to praise it just because it has a 12 bit ADC, and the only screenshots I've seen suggest 3 of those bits are noise. Rigol has also been slow in adopting measurements from the real data, and if this thing does on screen measurements from the screen pixels, then the 12bit ADC is not very useful at all, but I guess that could be fixed with a firmware update later, but apparently it's already on the chinese market for half a year.
That said, is there anyone on the internet who does real thorough reviews of oscilloscopes? Most are just showing some sine waves, pushing some front panel buttons and then concluding "yeah it works". And often they also show some of the new features of a new scope. but thorough reviews are really rare. How well does it capture difficult data? Does the segmented memory actually work as advertised? Resolution and accuracy of RMS measurements and things like that. For example, if this Rigol with it's 12 bit ADC still has a 3% accuracy for on screen RMS measurements, then that's pretty atrocious in my view. At the moment I'm not very impressed by this thing (yet), but it's too early to draw any conclusions, but I'm certainly not going t buy it just because it has a 12bit ADC.
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This thing is badly in need of a good and thorough review. A lot of people seem to praise it just because it has a 12 bit ADC, and the only screenshots I've seen suggest 3 of those bits are noise. Rigol has also been slow in adopting measurements from the real data, and if this thing does on screen measurements from the screen pixels, then the 12bit ADC is not very useful at all, but I guess that could be fixed with a firmware update later, but apparently it's already on the chinese market for half a year.
That said, is there anyone on the internet who does real thorough reviews of oscilloscopes? Most are just showing some sine waves, pushing some front panel buttons and then concluding "yeah it works". And often they also show some of the new features of a new scope. but thorough reviews are really rare. How well does it capture difficult data? Does the segmented memory actually work as advertised? Resolution and accuracy of RMS measurements and things like that. For example, if this Rigol with it's 12 bit ADC still has a 3% accuracy for on screen RMS measurements, then that's pretty atrocious in my view. At the moment I'm not very impressed by this thing (yet), but it's too early to draw any conclusions, but I'm certainly not going t buy it just because it has a 12bit ADC.
There has been a lot of discussion on this forum of the DS1054Z/1154Z. Surely not wrapped up in a single video, if that's what you're expecting. Have you read the years long threads here on that product line? Do you really expect that will happen for this product in the next few months, delivered to you on a silver spoon? Why don't you do it?
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Once you've tried a touch screen (or mouse) then using a twisty knob for navigation is a complete joke.
Some people will find it preferable to play with knobs though over just touching.
Sure, for some things, eg. horizontal timebase.
For navigating menus, turning on measurements (looking at you, Siglent...), etc? It sucks.
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I'm certainly not going t buy it just because it has a 12bit ADC.
Neither am I.
I'm buying it for the form factor, the user interface, and, yes... the fact that it has a very good front end and high resolution ADC (much better than 8 bits) all for less than 400 Euros.
It also looks like it will be extremely hackable and fun to mess around with. It also has windows, perspective views, graphical front end setup, and all sorts of neat tricks.
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This thing is badly in need of a good and thorough review.
There's been reviews of the HDO4000 series. This is basically the same thing, but smaller.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gremHHvqYTE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gremHHvqYTE)
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This thing is badly in need of a good and thorough review.
Yeah I'm also eagerly awaiting the first impressions, and especially how it stacks up against the SDS1104X-E.
I'm a beginner hobbyist who is looking into buying their first scope, because I would like to be able to visualize the circuits I'm playing around with (mostly Arduino stuff, beginner circuits, etc.). I initially set my eyes on the SDS1104X-E and was about to purchase that one considering it's 10% off in Europe this month, when this one popped up.
I know on one hand that for my use it doesn't really matter which one I would go for because I'll probably only use a fraction of what it can do.
On the other hand, it would feel quite bad if after saving up and buying the Siglent, it gets dethroned by the DHO800 as the best bang-for-buck scope for hobbyists a month later (especially if the early discoveries turn out to be true and the bandwidth and memory depth of the DHO804 can be easily uphacked to those of the DHO914/DHO924).
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Once you've tried a touch screen (or mouse) then using a twisty knob for navigation is a complete joke. I went from a Rigol DS1054Z to a Micsig and I'd never go back even though the Rigol can do more things.
I’m almost completely the opposite: I have two Micsigs, one with the knobs, one without. I also have an MSO1074Z. I always prefer using the Rigol over the Micsigs, I just don’t find working with touch screens works particularly well for me.
The same applies to the other touch screen scopes I use, MSO5000, SDS2000X+ and MDO3104T: if I can do it with the knobs, I prefer to use the knobs. I do have a wireless mouse hooked up to the MDO3104T which occasionally comes in useful.
I also have an early touchscreen scope, an MSO8104A, at my soldering workbench. You have to use a keyboard and mouse or touchscreen for anything but primary functions. I can’t remember ever using the touchscreen. I very recently replaced it with a 2nd hand MSO6104A, with no touch screen, keyboard or mouse, and consider my life improved!
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Once you've tried a touch screen (or mouse) then using a twisty knob for navigation is a complete joke. I went from a Rigol DS1054Z to a Micsig and I'd never go back even though the Rigol can do more things.
I’m almost completely the opposite: I have two Micsigs, one with the knobs, one without. I also have an MSO1074Z. I always prefer using the Rigol over the Micsigs, I just don’t find working with touch screens works particularly well for me.
The same applies to the other touch screen scopes I use, MSO5000, SDS2000X+ and MDO3104T: if I can do it with the knobs, I prefer to use the knobs. I do have a wireless mouse hooked up to the MDO3104T which occasionally comes in useful.
I also have an early touchscreen scope, an MSO8104A, at my soldering workbench. You have to use a keyboard and mouse or touchscreen for anything but primary functions. I can’t remember ever using the touchscreen. I very recently replaced it with a 2nd hand MSO6104A, with no touch screen, keyboard or mouse, and consider my life improved!
Hehe, we people are different, who knew .... :-DD
I personally am somewhere in the middle: I have Micsig STO (one with the knobs) MSOX3000T, SDS2000X HD and SDS6000 H12Pro and few Picos..
On all touchscreen scopes I use combination: menus, virtual keyboard etc on the screen and setting some stuff on knobs (vertical, time base, cursors).
Horizontal zoom position I use screen for coarse moves and knob for fine...
I do that on all the scopes, whatever fells more natural for operation.
On MSO3000T I use it all: soft keys around the screen, touch and knobs...
I personally would not like to use only knob based or only touchscreen scope if I had a choice.
And before someone comments, on Picoscopes you have touch, keyboard, and mouse knob that combined works... I run it on large touchscreen BUT have mouse connected. I need that mouse wheel.
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if this Rigol with it's 12 bit ADC still has a 3% accuracy for on screen RMS measurements, then that's pretty atrocious in my view.
I think you have unrealistic expectations of oscilloscopes, if you regard them as precision measuring instruments. You could spend 4-5 times the amount on a current A-brand scope and not achieve better.
with it's 12 bit ADC
resolution != accuracy
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Hehe, we people are different, who knew .... :-DD
Exactly!
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if this Rigol with it's 12 bit ADC still has a 3% accuracy for on screen RMS measurements, then that's pretty atrocious in my view.
I think you have unrealistic expectations of oscilloscopes, if you regard them as precision measuring instruments. You could spend 4-5 times the amount on a current A-brand scope and not achieve better.
with it's 12 bit ADC
resolution != accuracy
That seems reasonable. Which then makes me curious how much that improved resolution actually benefits the user. Because is the resolution can't really be conveyed through the wave image on the screen - and the measurements are still not 'accurate' - then where is the real benefit?
I'm guessing a 12bit will be more 'accurate' than an 8bit scope, even though neither is good enough as a precision instrument?
EDIT - one area where I expect more bits does make a big improvement is that frequently signals are not measured at their full scale, so many bits go unused and the displayed waveform is based on only a portion of the bits available - in that case, you probably get more bits on a higher resolution scope?
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if this Rigol with it's 12 bit ADC still has a 3% accuracy for on screen RMS measurements, then that's pretty atrocious in my view.
I think you have unrealistic expectations of oscilloscopes, if you regard them as precision measuring instruments. You could spend 4-5 times the amount on a current A-brand scope and not achieve better.
with it's 12 bit ADC
resolution != accuracy
That seems reasonable. Which then makes me curious how much that improved resolution actually benefits the user. Because is the resolution can't really be conveyed through the wave image on the screen - and the measurements are still not 'accurate' - then where is the real benefit?
I'm guessing a 12bit will be more 'accurate' than an 8bit scope, even though neither is good enough as a precision instrument?
Even DHO4000 has only 2% ...
It depends on the class of the scope.
Some 12 bit scopes will have tighter DC accuracy specifications.
SDS2000X HD is more expensive but has :
0.5 mV/div ~ 4.95 mV/div: ±1.5 %;
5 mV/div ~ 10 V/div: ±0.5 %
SDS2000X HD also have much larger offset range...
PicoScope 4262 (16 bit) has best accuracy of 0,25%, worst 2%, depending on range...
For best results, datasheets should be analysed and details worked out..
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If i understand the purpose / value of 12-bit (which i don't profess i do, so please correct me here)...
For a higher bandwidth 10-bit scope you are analyzing waveforms, the more bandwidth then it can resolve those higher freqs. And you are in effect trading lower ADC bits for higher time base resolving capability.
Wheras on 12-bit (at lower rates, such as these ones, like HDO800 we are discussing here). You are analyzing a lower freq waveform. Perhaps very lower Hz down into Kilohertz... then you get nicer resolving image on the screen. That is 12-bits = 4096 vertical scanlines for the maximum peak-2-peak adjustment. Rather than a 10-bit which would (under zooming the vertical) - that would resolve to 1024 scan lines of resolution.
But that's just the ADC part. Within the longer pipeline, including the probes, and the analoge input amplifier and all that.
Then behind the ADC is the memory aquisition storage and firmware. Whatever it's doing to either not-store, or to mess up in the Math functions. To not take proper advantage of what the ADC is giving.
And assuming noise floor has to be below the resolving capability of the ADC.
This picture paints only 2 words:
PROPER REVIEW
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Considering that scopes are not precision measurement devices, and seem to be most useful for visually identifying signal issues and time based analysis, I have to admit that the whole 12bit vs 8bit thing has me confused. Technically, I get it and my gut says more bits is better. But I feel the same way with audio and a lot of people say there isn't a huge difference in 24bit vs 16bit audio (I've never bothered to do any real A/B testing).
In the scheme of things, at this price class I guess you just can't argue with getting 'more' for less. And battery power possibilities make floating measurements so much safer (for the equipment lol). As a consumer I'm thrilled to see this coming, but I don't see the 12bits being the primary motivator.
EDIT - it's also amazing how few components now make up the analog front end... No doubt there is some cost savings there.
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Who buys a DHO814 when the DHO804 is hackable?
I searched around a bit and haven't been able to find information on that hack... Do you have a link? Thanks.
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Who buys a DHO814 when the DHO804 is hackable?
I searched around a bit and haven't been able to find information on that hack... Do you have a link? Thanks.
Earlier in the thread, the following was mentioned, although it's less of a hack and more of a complete reflash:
Thank you,hubert.
My DHO804 is DHO924 now.
Two extra drams are only for LA.It can be unpopulate if doesn't use the LA .
The bandwidth is increased successfully.it has 800ps rise time now.
And the memory depth is 50M now.
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where is the real benefit?
It's like having "hires" mode on all the time but without the loss of bandwidth.
I'm guessing a 12bit will be more 'accurate' than an 8bit scope, even though neither is good enough as a precision instrument?
Oscilloscopes are for looking at the shapes of things, not for measuring them to many decimal places. More bits = more precise capturing of the shape.
EDIT - one area where I expect more bits does make a big improvement is that frequently signals are not measured at their full scale, so many bits go unused and the displayed waveform is based on only a portion of the bits available
Watch this video at time 23:11:
https://youtu.be/gremHHvqYTE?t=1391
nb. That video also clearly shows that the Rigol chipset has more bits than a 10-bit R&S.
It's the exact same ADC/frontend as the DHO800 so results should be the same. :)
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More bits = more precise capturing of the shape.
... in vertical terms.
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Who buys a DHO814 when the DHO804 is hackable?
I searched around a bit and haven't been able to find information on that hack... Do you have a link? Thanks.
Earlier in the thread, the following was mentioned, although it's less of a hack and more of a complete reflash:
If the 924 firmware works on a 804 then it's a very safe bet that the 814 firmware will work. It might even be that the 4000-series firmware works and we can do power analysis on a $400 'scope.
It's also obvious that the system is wide open to hacking. It will probably be done via USB within 30 minutes of the first wave of deliveries at the end of this month.
(And before you ask: No, Rigol is NOT going to do anything about this ... hacking is their bread and butter)
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Considering that scopes are not precision measurement devices, and seem to be most useful for visually identifying signal issues and time based analysis, I have to admit that the whole 12bit vs 8bit thing has me confused. Technically, I get it and my gut says more bits is better. But I feel the same way with audio and a lot of people say there isn't a huge difference in 24bit vs 16bit audio (I've never bothered to do any real A/B testing).
The question is if the DSO can make good use of the higher ADC resolution. In general, with a higher resolution you can see smaller changes or get a higher dynamic range. The latter is the benefit of 24bit audio, especially for classical music (if done right). At the same time it's not hard fit less demanding music into 16 bits without clipping, but some studios manage to screw up even that (loudness wars). More bits can help if used properly.
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Even DHO4000 has only 2% ...
You can probably do better than that if you warm it up properly and do a self-cal just before the measurement. :)
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More than 16bits in audio is normally used to have some margin for mixing and digital editting. This way, the rounding errors are still above the 16bits resolution.
In an oscilloscope, 8 bits resolution means that a signal interval from 0V to 5V can be represented in steps of 0.02V, i.e. you can differenciate a 0.02V difference in your signal.
If you have 12 bits, that equates to: 0.0015V (approx.), which is more than 10 times better. The thing is: if you have 12bits, that gives 4096 different states as opposed to 256. But the screen only has a vertical resolution of what, 800 pixel?
I would say that the effective, usable benefit of 12bits vs 8bits in a low spec oscilloscope should be something like "twice the resolution" on screen.
Definitely better, but not something that will allow you to measure a signal which you wouldn't be able to measure with 8bit.
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The latter is the benefit of 24bit audio, especially for classical music (if done right). At the same time it's not hard fit less demanding music into 16 bits without clipping, but some studios manage to screw up even that (loudness wars). More bits can help if used properly.
Please watch this three times before posting anything like that again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM)
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In that case/my case with a 924S on its way (so need for hacking higher specs to a lower specced model), I propose two hacks:
Hack 1: a button that closes all surrounding menus/info panels around the main display and enlarges the display to the full 7-inch,
Hack 2: the possibility to adjust the timebase in a VCO-like manner, just like in an analog scope like the PM3230.
It's also obvious that the system is wide open to hacking. It will probably be done via USB within 30 minutes of the first wave of deliveries at the end of this month.
(And before you ask: No, Rigol is NOT going to do anything about this ... hacking is their bread and butter)
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In that case/my case with a 924S on its way (so need for hacking higher specs to a lower specced model), I propose two hacks:
Hack 1: a button that closes all surrounding menus/info panels around the main display and enlarges the display to the full 7-inch,
Hack 2: the possibility to adjust the timebase in a VCO-like manner, just like in an analog scope like the PM3230.
I'm sure you'll be very popular if you do those two things for us.
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In that case/my case with a 924S on its way (so need for hacking higher specs to a lower specced model), I propose two hacks:
Hack 1: a button that closes all surrounding menus/info panels around the main display and enlarges the display to the full 7-inch,
Hack 2: the possibility to adjust the timebase in a VCO-like manner, just like in an analog scope like the PM3230.
I'm sure you'll be very popular if you do those two things for us.
Previous posts in this thread have indicated that the code is not obfuscated and therefore decompiled easily. This might be the most modable scope ever. If Rigol continues to allow the community to "hack" these scopes or better yet embraces the community we may have the futures most popular scope family available here.
Rigol: Do you remember what opening up iPhone to 3rd party app development did for iPhone sales?
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Hack 2 needs both hardware and software adaptions.
I wonder if we can just do that.
Previous posts in this thread have indicated that the code is not obfuscated and therefore decompiled easily. This might be the most modable scope ever. If Rigol continues to allow the community to "hack" these scopes or better yet embraces the community we may have the futures most popular scope family available here.
Rigol: Do you remember what opening up iPhone to 3rd party app development did for iPhone sales?
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Hack 2 needs both hardware and software adaptions.
2 probably involves the FPGA.
I'm not sure it's really needed in a DSO. On a CRO it was good to be able to maximize a wave on screen while keeping the trigger point visible. On a DSO you can zoom in and pan left/right and the trigger will work just the same.
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Please watch this three times before posting anything like that again:
OT - that video is the absolute best explanation of bit depth I have ever encountered. Although the example is based on audio signals, it equally applies to any AD/DA signal process such as modern digital oscilloscopes.
Thanks much for that link !!!
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Considering that scopes are not precision measurement devices, and seem to be most useful for visually identifying signal issues and time based analysis, I have to admit that the whole 12bit vs 8bit thing has me confused.
It may help to consider that very often, we're using oscilloscopes to make *relative* measurements i.e. how does one signal change with respect to another e.g. filter performance, rather than against a fixed external reference. Higher resolution (accompanied by an appropriately low noise floor) allows us to be more certain about that change. Consider the difference between two cheap plastic office rulers, one marked in mm, the other only in cm. Both will probably fail miserably on absolute accuracy when compared to the SI meter reference. However the former allows us to be much more certain about how large or small the length of one object is, relative to another. Which comes into play for accuracy of things like frequency response curves, FFT etc.
However, in the context of this particular thread and the product range under discussion, I'm inclined to agree - few people will be purchasing these purely on the grounds that they are 12-bit scopes and that being all they can accept. It's a combination of price point, form factor, and 12-bits being not inherently worse than 8. And as others have already said, there are still compromises made for this. The horizontal resolution of the 8-bit MSO5000 series is 8x times that of the DHO800/900 for the analogue channels and ~2x for the LA section, albeit a ~30% price premium.
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Considering that scopes are not precision measurement devices, and seem to be most useful for visually identifying signal issues and time based analysis, I have to admit that the whole 12bit vs 8bit thing has me confused.
...Which comes into play for accuracy of things like frequency response curves, FFT etc.
I had overlooked measurements based on sample data beyond simply displaying the waveform on the screen. I was hung up on bit depth vs screen resolution, where the benefit might be relegated to zooming into the waveform. Indeed, further analysis such as FFT etc would likely improve with additional resolution.
Thanks everyone for the insight.
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However, in the context of this particular thread and the product range under discussion, I'm inclined to agree - few people will be purchasing these purely on the grounds that they are 12-bit scopes and that being all they can accept. It's a combination of price point, form factor, and 12-bits being not inherently worse than 8. And as others have already said, there are still compromises made for this.
For sure!
One thing that seems to often get overlooked when talking about the relative value of the DHO800 is that it is in the price range very close to the entry level scope such as the DS1054Z. When the DHO800 is widely available, only the absolutely most price sensitive buyer should even think about the DS1054Z. Even aside from the 8 bit/12 bit difference, the DHO800 offers quite a bit over the DS1054Z:
- touch screen
- much more compact
- VESA mount
- as good or better in all specs (?) compared to DS1054z
- probably hackable to 200MHz (I think this has already been done?)
- web-based remote control
- multi-pane windows
There might be reasons someone would consider the SDS1014X-E (Bode plot, LA and AWG options, arguably better decode, WiFi), but the DHO800 should still stack up favorably for many - if not most - people who would look at the SDS1014X-E.
I'm sure Rigol will be selling a ton of DHO804's
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One of the things I hope that the early adopters will try to more fully explore is the mobile / battery powered / isolated (but not floating, tied to DUT reference PD).
And see how useful that is. For automotive and also for PSU or other power oriented applications. (In combination with diff probes too when applicable).
The reason I say this is because to justify this scope's place / existence for users who already own the higher models DHO1000, or DHO4000. Which are not capable of being battery powered.
So in that context then it's becomes more a question of whether adding an 800/900 (as extra scope) is really justifiable. To get out for those specific scenarios. Makes sense?
[edit] BTW remembering that this would then also be a capability for budget users that isn't available with the competitor scope SDS1014X-E. Which might also be a value to some? ... in particular if you also (even as a budget user) maybe wants to works on vehicles, PSU or other things? Makes sense?
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The latter is the benefit of 24bit audio, especially for classical music (if done right). At the same time it's not hard fit less demanding music into 16 bits without clipping, but some studios manage to screw up even that (loudness wars). More bits can help if used properly.
Please watch this three times before posting anything like that again:
That's what I've written about 16bit vs 24bit audio:
The latter (dynamic range) is the benefit of 24bit audio, especially for classical music (if done right). At the same time it's not hard fit less demanding music into 16 bits without clipping, but some studios manage to screw up even that (loudness wars).
And that's the conclusion of a higher resolution in general:
More bits can help if used properly.
And you made that into: madires said that a higher resolution for audio is always better. But that's not what I've meant. Please read again!
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I'm inclined to agree - few people will be purchasing these purely on the grounds that they are 12-bit scopes and that being all they can accept. It's a combination of price point, form factor, and 12-bits being not inherently worse than 8.
Check out the pics Simone posted in the "Pre sales" thread.
Who wouldn't want one...?
(Yeah, I know, there's a lot of curmudgeons here... :D )
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Even DHO4000 has only 2% ...
You can probably do better than that if you warm it up properly and do a self-cal just before the measurement. :)
Well I can attest that my SDS2000X HD is better than 0.1% but I did not talk about that .
Siglent is guaranteeing 0.5% or better. On every single one.
Rigol is guaranteeing 2% for same circumstances.
It is about instrument class, components used, quality control and standing behind your product.
Nothing is wrong with Rigol's 2%. It's plenty enough for most uses.
But when people compare prices, those are also details that might be interesting for fair comparison.
Because of that, I literally use my multimeters much less for basic voltage measurements. I use scope as a multimeter.. ;D
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That's what I've written about 16bit vs 24bit audio:
The latter (dynamic range) is the benefit of 24bit audio, especially for classical music (if done right).
There might be some benefit for recovering from a bad recording setup but there's no benefit for playback.
The latter (dynamic range) is the benefit of 24bit audio, especially for classical music (if done right). At the same time it's not hard fit less demanding music into 16 bits without clipping, but some studios manage to screw up even that (loudness wars).
[/quote]
"Less demanding" music can fit into 8 bits.
This site has some audio tests that might interest you: https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_16vs8bit.php (https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_16vs8bit.php)
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There might be reasons someone would consider the SDS1014X-E (Bode plot, LA and AWG options, arguably better decode, WiFi), but the DHO800 should still stack up favorably for many - if not most - people who would look at the SDS1014X-E.
I'm sure Rigol will be selling a ton of DHO804's
Agreed. I think an influencing factor for those who frequently use multiple channels at high frequencies will be the DHO800's single shared ADC that reduces sampling rate as additional channels are enabled. Though I think consumers have been spoiled with modern scopes that provide so much value for the money we tend to purchase 4 channel models when really most people only need 2. I got my Siglent SDS1104X-E over the 2 channel version primarily because the price difference for the additional 2 channels was rather insignificant in the scheme of things, and some features like Bode Plot were only available on the 4 channel models.
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I think consumers have been spoiled with modern scopes that provide so much value for the money we tend to purchase 4 channel models when really most people only need 2.
I wouldn't say "most" - we live in a very digital world.
I got my Siglent SDS1104X-E over the 2 channel version primarily because the price difference for the additional 2 channels was rather insignificant in the scheme of things
Exactly!
Me? I can always find uses for extra channels, eg. for software debugging on my Arduino (I can toggle IO pins to show which code path was taken, if a variable passes a threshold value, etc...). I also use the 'scopes pulse width measurements for timing sections of code, interrupt handler response times, etc. It's a big help when optimizing.
I can't say I've ever needed more than four channels but having only two would be a big handicap.
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Considering that scopes are not precision measurement devices, and seem to be most useful for visually identifying signal issues and time based analysis, I have to admit that the whole 12bit vs 8bit thing has me confused.
However, in the context of this particular thread and the product range under discussion, I'm inclined to agree - few people will be purchasing these purely on the grounds that they are 12-bit scopes and that being all they can accept. It's a combination of price point, form factor, and 12-bits being not inherently worse than 8. And as others have already said, there are still compromises made for this. The horizontal resolution of the 8-bit MSO5000 series is 8x times that of the DHO800/900 for the analogue channels and ~2x for the LA section, albeit a ~30% price premium.
Should we really take the MSO5000 lineup as a compromise? 8x times higher horizontal resolution but such a high floor noise and 4x worse vertical resolution than DHO800/900.
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I think consumers have been spoiled with modern scopes that provide so much value for the money we tend to purchase 4 channel models when really most people only need 2.
I wouldn't say "most" - we live in a very digital world.
I got my Siglent SDS1104X-E over the 2 channel version primarily because the price difference for the additional 2 channels was rather insignificant in the scheme of things
Me? I can always find uses for extra channels, eg. for software debugging on my Arduino (I can toggle IO pins to show which code path was taken, if a variable passes a threshold value, etc...). I also use the 'scopes pulse width measurements for timing sections of code, interrupt handler response times, etc. It's a big help when optimizing.
I can't say I've ever needed more than four channels but having only two would be a big handicap.
This is where a low cost logic analyzer can help as well. Something like the DS Logic Plus can be a better investment than adding the LA option to many scopes, and even an $8 clone with Sigrock can sometimes provide more functionality than the LA add-on. If you need shared timebase, you can run the scope trigger to the external LA. I find my DS Logic much easier to work for serial decoding than what can be captured on the scope screen of my Siglent. You could easily use an external LA to time things like uc io pins.
But certainly more channels are always better if the price isn't much different - you will always find a use for them. And also why the DH800 not offering these options doesn't have to be a dealbreaker.
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There might be reasons someone would consider the SDS1014X-E (Bode plot, LA and AWG options, arguably better decode, WiFi), but the DHO800 should still stack up favorably for many - if not most - people who would look at the SDS1014X-E.
I'm sure Rigol will be selling a ton of DHO804's
DHO914S probably gives SDS1014X-E run for the money: SDS1014X-E +WFG+software is only little bit cheaper than DHO914S
SDS1014X-E +WFG+logic module+2x software is actually more expensive(1197 eur) than DHO914S+logic module. (1186eur)
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Though I think consumers have been spoiled with modern scopes that provide so much value for the money we tend to purchase 4 channel models when really most people only need 2
That depends on what you are doing. If your work involves microcontrollers or generic digital stuff then having at least 4 channels is a must.
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Should we really take the MSO5000 lineup as a compromise? 8x times higher horizontal resolution but such a high floor noise and 4x worse vertical resolution than DHO800/900.
In the real world, the noise floor of the 5k is of no consequence for many common problem domains. For example, if you're mainly working with microcontrollers, high speed logic or inherently noisy digital environments such as automotive/industrial CAN and LIN. It's *probably* also of no real consequence to the average hobbyist and their Arudino either, save for it being repeated on these forums ad nausea.
That's not to say that the DHO is bad, or worse, or better. Just a different proposition, at a different price point.
Horses for courses.
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Let me kill that dream: at some point you will want to measure some analog signals or just measure the level of a digital signal and in those situations noise just gets in the way of getting work done. Been there, done that. If the same money can buy you a lower noise oscilloscope, then buy the lower noise oscilloscope.
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Does it mean with the single ADC chip inside the sampling rate 1.25Gs will drop to ~300Ms per channel when using all 4 channels? What would be the impact when hacked to 200MHz BW, for example?
Or the sampling rate is hackable too?
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Let me kill that dream: at some point you will want to measure some analog signals or just measure the level of a digital signal and in those situations noise just gets in the way of getting work done.
Hasn't happened yet but if it should, there will be a DHO800 hanging off my VESA mount.
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Does it mean with the single ADC chip inside the sampling rate 1.25Gs will drop to ~300Ms per channel when using all 4 channels? What would be the impact when hacked to 200MHz BW, for example?
Or the sampling rate is hackable too?
The 250MHz DHO924 samples at 312.5 MSa/s for 3 or 4 channels enabled.
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I'm still a Siglent fan and my SDS1104X-E still fits my modest needs, but if Siglent doesn't drop the 1000HD line in NA soon with similar or better features at a comparable price point (like within 120%), I may be looking to add my first piece of Rigol gear to the collection. If I do I'd want the 900S series to get all the possible hardware options (plus, I'm apparently in the minority by really liking the black case, though it's not going to match my other white gear). I'm not averse to hacking -- my 1104 is fully upgraded -- but here given the price difference is only $100 MSRP between the 914S and the 924S, I think I'd probably just bite that bullet, assuage my conscience and peace-of-mind, and spring for the fully loaded 924S and be done with it. It'll be doing my part to help Rigol subsidize all you pirates. :-DD
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Does it mean with the single ADC chip inside the sampling rate 1.25Gs will drop to ~300Ms per channel when using all 4 channels? What would be the impact when hacked to 200MHz BW, for example?
Or the sampling rate is hackable too?
All models are having the same ADC.
Top model DHO4000 have two ADCs, min/max Samplerate is 1/4GSa/s.
DHO1000 have one ADC, min/max Samplerate is 500M/2GSa/s , which makes sense when only one is for all channels.
But DHO800/900 also have one ADC, the same ADC - So why don´t they have the same samplerates like the DHO1000 ?
Different FPGA, 800/900 are using a different one comparing to the 1000/4000.
Maybe this is the reason.
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Does it mean with the single ADC chip inside the sampling rate 1.25Gs will drop to ~300Ms per channel when using all 4 channels? What would be the impact when hacked to 200MHz BW, for example?
Or the sampling rate is hackable too?
The 250MHz DHO924 samples at 312.5 MSa/s for 3 or 4 channels enabled.
Hmm, that is interesting. From some discussions in past I learned (perhaps I misunderstood something) that the sample rate has to be at least 4-5x higher than the BW (and say only 2.5x for >1Ghz BWs)..
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Does it mean with the single ADC chip inside the sampling rate 1.25Gs will drop to ~300Ms per channel when using all 4 channels? What would be the impact when hacked to 200MHz BW, for example?
Or the sampling rate is hackable too?
Sampling rate is not hackable (or at least nobody managed to do it so far.. because nobody really has it yet)...
ADC is specified at 1.25GSp/s, it might be that it is hard clocked as such, or maybe even that maybe ADC could but FPGA could not cope with data rate. Until there are thousands of them "in the wild" and some capable people work on it, we wont know.
So far, based at what we know now, even when hacking it I would not "open" BW to more than 100MHz. Even at 100 MHz set, BW is probably more than 100MHz, and then signal does not just die suddenly. It gets progressively weaker.
Problem is that with 8Bits, signal soon drops below ADC resolution and you are all right. With 12 bits, that doesn't happen until higher BW, so you would have more aliasing than similar 8bit scope. In 4ch mode aliasing start at 156,25 MHz.
If they are clever, they decrease BW to 100MHz MAX automatically in 4CH mode...
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Does it mean with the single ADC chip inside the sampling rate 1.25Gs will drop to ~300Ms per channel when using all 4 channels? What would be the impact when hacked to 200MHz BW, for example?
Or the sampling rate is hackable too?
The 250MHz DHO924 samples at 312.5 MSa/s for 3 or 4 channels enabled.
Hmm, that is interesting. From some discussions in past I learned (perhaps I misunderstood something) that the sample rate has to be at least 4-5x higher than the BW (and say only 2.5x for >1Ghz BWs)..
It depends on type of antialiasing filter used . If filter is really sharp, 2,5X is starting point where it works. If you are using more traditional filter with Gausian response (slower roll off), then 4X or 5X might be needed.
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I suppose it is technically possible that they are actually sampling at 2 or 4 GS/s and the ADC has the ability to filter and decimate digitally. Having a single ASIC across your product range can favour topologies that would normally be considered wasteful or unreasonably costly.
Then again, given some of the weird things they have done in the past, I wouldn't exactly be shocked if it turns out that the 250 MHz are just there to tick a box and lead to horrible aliasing.
We won't know until someone measures the frequency response with and without all channels enabled.
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If it were possible to hack the 804 not only to 100Mhz but even to 250Mhz, I could make the measurements when my 804 arrived.
I find that interesting anyway, this 250Mhz and 1.25GSa/s.
That doesn't fit from the logic if you add the DHO1000 and DHO4000 models.
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This is where a low cost logic analyzer can help as well. Something like the DS Logic Plus can be a better investment than adding the LA option to many scopes, and even an $8 clone with Sigrock can sometimes provide more functionality than the LA add-on.
Yes, but none of those have a real-time view with triggering.
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Then again, given some of the weird things they have done in the past, I wouldn't exactly be shocked if it turns out that the 250 MHz are just there to tick a box and lead to horrible aliasing.
We won't know until someone measures the frequency response with and without all channels enabled.
Yep. I'm very interested to see what happens on the 250Mhz bandwidth models.
I'm sure the Siglent boys will have an extensive thread on the subject. :popcorn:
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It depends on type of antialiasing filter used . If filter is really sharp, 2,5X is starting point where it works. If you are using more traditional filter with Gausian response (slower roll off), then 4X or 5X might be needed.
Yep, would be great to see the real life measurements, as even the "Max" 100MHz BW with 312.5MS/s sampling rate would be something new, imho :) For 100Mhz BW I would expect at least 2GS/4=500MS per channel (even my vintage DS1062 I've been playing with is 2GS/s with 60MHz BW single channel, they write).
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This is where a low cost logic analyzer can help as well. Something like the DS Logic Plus can be a better investment than adding the LA option to many scopes, and even an $8 clone with Sigrock can sometimes provide more functionality than the LA add-on.
Yes, but none of those have a real-time view with triggering.
You generally don't need real-time viewing on a logic analyzer, its just meaningless numbers streaming past. Triggering is available on a $80 DSLogic, which has far more protocols than any rigol. I have a diy PLA2216 and 99% of the time use a $8 sigrok clone or the dslogic.
Of course, personal preference may vary and has been discussed here 1000 times, some people don't like using the PC or need a portable LA. Just that dropping $400 on a LA probe and potentially an extra $200 for the DHO900 is hilariously poor value.
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It depends on type of antialiasing filter used . If filter is really sharp, 2,5X is starting point where it works. If you are using more traditional filter with Gausian response (slower roll off), then 4X or 5X might be needed.
Yep, would be great to see the real life measurements, as even the "Max" 100MHz BW with 312.5MS/s sampling rate would be something new, imho :) For 100Mhz BW I would expect at least 2GS/4=500MS per channel
Those days are long gone. A typical, well designed DSO has the maximum bandwidth right up to the samplerate divided by 2.5. That is a little below the frequency where sin x/x reconstruction stops working. This allows the user to choose between maximum bandwidth or a lower bandwidth with a Gaussian roll-off. A decent DSO typically has multiple bandwidth choices to give the user maximum flexibility.
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This thing is badly in need of a good and thorough review.
Yeah I'm also eagerly awaiting the first impressions, and especially how it stacks up against the SDS1104X-E.
Have you guys seen this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBad0a1B2U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBad0a1B2U)
I haven't tried it yet (obviously) but all that UltraAcquire stuff is in the DHO800 manual with the exact same feature set.
Bottom line: These Rigol DHOs aren't just a "12-bit ADC", they're a game changer. A whole a new class of oscilloscope. Right now I wouldn't even be looking at the SDS1104X-E, I'd be either getting one of these or waiting to see how Siglent responds.
(PS: check out the way the UI works at 4:43 :o ... and I love the display at 6:00 )
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You generally don't need real-time viewing on a logic analyzer, its just meaningless numbers streaming past.
Yes, but that's the way usually I end up using it.
I've got one of those cheapo logic analyzers somewhere. It doesn't get used much. I'm typically looking at signal integrity or using it for software debugging so I need real time display with trigger.
I thought long and hard about getting a DHO900 instead of a DHO800 but the price of the logic probes put me off.
Rigol needs to fix that. You can charge those prices when the 'scope costs $2000 but not when it costs $400. They're just a bunch of wires with clips and a few comparators. They could probably sell them at cost price and make a ton of money from everybody buying the DHO900 instead of the DHO800 (everybody would pay $200 more for basically the same hardware).
I'll go with a 4-channel 'scope for now. It's worked for me so far.
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You'll get one soon, then you can work with it - that's something completely different than always "living" from reports, pictures and videos.
I, for example, have known since February what to expect. ;)
or waiting to see how Siglent responds.
Possibly not at all.
Quality also has a price limit somewhere below which it is no longer possible to maintain the standards to which customers have become accustomed.
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... but here given the price difference is only $100 MSRP between the 914S and the 924S, I think I'd probably just bite that bullet, ...
I'd say that $100 justifies the price difference with 4x 350MHz passive probes, instead of hacking a 912 from 125MHz to the 250MHz of the 924, and fell short with 4x 150MHz probes
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... but here given the price difference is only $100 MSRP between the 914S and the 924S, I think I'd probably just bite that bullet, ...
I'd say that $100 justifies the price difference with 4x 350MHz passive probes, instead of hacking a 912 from 125MHz to the 250MHz of the 924, and fell short with 4x 150MHz probes
I'd want to know what happens at 200MHz with 4 channels enabled before going for a 924.
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So, I replaced my scope's vendor.bin (DHO804) file with @hubertyoung's vendor file (DHO924). My scope became a DHO924 but there were vertical offset issues on every channel that couldn't be removed even with selfcal. At 250MHz, rise time with Leo Bodnar's pulse generator is 1.64ns.
Then I copied Dave's DHO814 SD card dump onto an SD card and inserted it into my scope. My scope is now a DHO814. I copied back my original cal data and performed a selfcal. The rise time is around 2.68ns.
Replacing the vendor file changes the scope's model. Cal data is stored in /rigol/data.
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So, I replaced my scope's vendor.bin (DHO804) file with @hubertyoung's vendor file (DHO924). My scope became a DHO924...
...rise time with Leo Bodnar's pulse generator is 1.64ns.
OK, so what happens if you enable 4 channels and feed it that pulse?
(or a 200MHz signal if you can do that?)
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The rise time increases as the sample rate (312MSa/s) goes down. This scope does not have equivalent-time sampling.
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No CAN decoding meh :-- :palm:
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So, I replaced my scope's vendor.bin (DHO804) file with @hubertyoung's vendor file (DHO924). My scope became a DHO924 but there were vertical offset issues on every channel that couldn't be removed even with selfcal. At 250MHz, rise time with Leo Bodnar's pulse generator is 1.64ns.
Then I copied Dave's DHO814 SD card dump onto an SD card and inserted it into my scope. My scope is now a DHO814. I copied back my original cal data and performed a selfcal. The rise time is around 2.68ns.
Replacing the vendor file changes the scope's model. Cal data is stored in /rigol/data.
Have you tried the calibration of the built-in hidden debug mode? Crazy clicking on the menu <About Me > can enter debug mode and expect your results.
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Delta replacement fan test.
TLDR, it's quieter if you run a thicker Delta it at 5V, about 2-3degC temp rise, but still not silent. The blades are just too close to the heatsink fins which generates extre noise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoyaHOqp9gI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoyaHOqp9gI)
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Have you guys seen this video?
https://youtu.be/enBad0a1B2U
I've always wanted to do that talking head touch screen thing, I realised this after I got my non-touchscreen 70in TV for my talking head backdrops. It works really well.
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..
It depends on type of antialiasing filter used . If filter is really sharp, 2,5X is starting point where it works. If you are using more traditional filter with Gausian response (slower roll off), then 4X or 5X might be needed.
Yep, would be great to see the real life measurements, as even the "Max" 100MHz BW with 312.5MS/s sampling rate would be something new, imho :) For 100Mhz BW I would expect at least 2GS/4=500MS per channel
Those days are long gone. A typical, well designed DSO has the maximum bandwidth right up to the samplerate divided by 2.5. That is a little below the frequency where sin x/x reconstruction stops working. This allows the user to choose between maximum bandwidth or a lower bandwidth with a Gaussian roll-off. A decent DSO typically has multiple bandwidth choices to give the user maximum flexibility.
Interesting.. How they do that with 250MHz BW and 312.5MS/s then?
The 250MHz DHO924 samples at 312.5 MSa/s for 3 or 4 channels enabled.
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Interesting.. How they do that with 250MHz BW and 312.5MS/s then?
The 250MHz DHO924 samples at 312.5 MSa/s for 3 or 4 channels enabled.
They refer you to the section of the user guide that starts "A sample rate that is too low might have the following effects on the waveform:..."
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No CAN decoding meh :-- :palm:
yes but if a future contribution / pr ever updates the libsigrok (open source project) to support this family of scopes hardware... then you will be able to decode it over on a pc / laptop link connection. so that maybe? that then is not as convenient (especially for auto)... but then at least not any worse than having to resort to any other regular logic analyzer. since the scope itself just becomes like any another l.a.
we could also ask rigol as a firmware request: to add can bus decode
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Interesting.. How they do that with 250MHz BW and 312.5MS/s then?
The 250MHz DHO924 samples at 312.5 MSa/s for 3 or 4 channels enabled.
They refer you to the section of the user guide that starts "A sample rate that is too low might have the following effects on the waveform:..."
Thanks, page 55 of the DHO900 user manual for reference (and yes, those are the issues you will encounter..). At least you got 625Msa/s with two channels enabled ("half channel mode"), they write.. :)
This 800/900 series is indeed designed as, say, max 100MHz BW with max 2 channels, imho.
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Thanks, page 55 of the DHO900 user manual for reference (and yes, those are the issues you will encounter..).
Section 7.3... it's all laid out, at least they're open about it. They even detail all the problems, with pictures. :)
It's a tough trade: Do you want full bandwidth with one or two channels? How often will a 200MHz signal make it all the way into the system in "All channels mode"? What effect will using the "150MHz" probes have?
Let the testing begin! :popcorn:
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Have you guys seen this video?
Did you watch it?
That is cool looking display mode. But what it is used for?
If you have any kind of persistence, you can overlay millions of captures to look for existence of the glitch. It is an old technique.
There are no measurements while it is running or displaying it. No decoding..
What will you use it for? It looks cool on on a shelf in a store but what do you use it for?
It is just a marketing gimmick....
Many of those visualization modes are already there on other scopes. With segmented mode you can overlay segments on Keysight, even on older Rigols. With segmented and history mode you can overlay captures on Siglent too. And they will measure and decode on that data...
What part of your process will it make so better that it will change your life?
That is definition of phrase "game changer".
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Thanks, page 55 of the DHO900 user manual for reference (and yes, those are the issues you will encounter..).
Section 7.3... it's all laid out, at least they're open about it. They even detail all the problems, with pictures. :)
It's a tough trade: Do you want full bandwidth with one or two channels? How often will a 200MHz signal make it all the way into the system in "All channels mode"? What effect will using the "150MHz" probes have?
Let the testing begin! :popcorn:
It is really interesting to see this reinvention of physical (and moral) principles every time people want to sell their agenda..
It is probably sign of times, I guess ....
It is NOT all right to deliberately design an instrument that violates basic principles of math and physics.
It is NOT all right to design it deliberately and with full knowledge that it will grossly violate sampling theorem and then say it is all right because you confessed to it in User manual.
Right thing to do would be to sell it as 100MHz scope (that it is) and 100 MHz scope only..
Which would not diminish it's value at all...
But this scope is all about bombastic trailer and lousy movie, like all new Hollywood productions...
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..
It depends on type of antialiasing filter used . If filter is really sharp, 2,5X is starting point where it works. If you are using more traditional filter with Gausian response (slower roll off), then 4X or 5X might be needed.
Yep, would be great to see the real life measurements, as even the "Max" 100MHz BW with 312.5MS/s sampling rate would be something new, imho :) For 100Mhz BW I would expect at least 2GS/4=500MS per channel
Those days are long gone. A typical, well designed DSO has the maximum bandwidth right up to the samplerate divided by 2.5. That is a little below the frequency where sin x/x reconstruction stops working. This allows the user to choose between maximum bandwidth or a lower bandwidth with a Gaussian roll-off. A decent DSO typically has multiple bandwidth choices to give the user maximum flexibility.
Interesting.. How they do that with 250MHz BW and 312.5MS/s then?
I guess you skipped over: well designed DSO
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Have you guys seen this video?
Did you watch it?
That is cool looking display mode. But what it is used for?
If you have any kind of persistence, you can overlay millions of captures to look for existence of the glitch. It is an old technique.
There are no measurements while it is running or displaying it. No decoding..
What will you use it for? It looks cool on on a shelf in a store but what do you use it for?
It is just a marketing gimmick....
Many of those visualization modes are already there on other scopes. With segmented mode you can overlay segments on Keysight, even on older Rigols. With segmented and history mode you can overlay captures on Siglent too. And they will measure and decode on that data...
What part of your process will it make so better that it will change your life?
The fact that you can immediately see the time distribution of infrequent events, though the 100 trace limit may limit its usefulness.
Persistance will tell you that something happened, but not how often or the distribution over time.
There are also event types that don't display well with persistence which would be much easier to see with the perspective mode.
I can think of a couple of situations where this would have saved me significant debugging time.
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I would accept their marketing of the "70MHz models with 4 channels and that 312.5MSa/s per channel with all 4 channels enabled" as that
somehow fits the math. My current understanding is they developed their new 12bit ADC ASIC, and it works those 1.25GSa/s single channel max with no chance for an improvement soon.
Now they want to get their R&D ROI back, so they created a new product series - the 800/900 series - where under their traditionally friendly approach to the tech community they allow for hacking, as they know well their highest 800/900 models (with the single ADC inside) in that series are basically still the 70MHz scopes (such the math works somehow)..
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we could also ask rigol as a firmware request: to add can bus decode
It couldn't hurt you to ask, true. Unless you hold breath until it arrives. It's clearly a commercial decision Rigol have taken, to differentiate it from the more expensive 900/1000/4000 series models.
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What part of your process will it make so better that it will change your life?
That is definition of phrase "game changer".
Not true. You can also change a game by reducing the price to a point where everybody can afford it, not just a few rich people.
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It is NOT all right to deliberately design an instrument that violates basic principles of math and physics.
It doesn't do that with only one or two channels enabled.
Don't point fingers at me though, I'm on record as saying I wouldn't want full 250Mhz bandwidth in my DHO.
I'm also on record saying Rigol should have programmed the 'scope to turn on the 125MHz bandwidth limiter when you enable more than 2 channels.
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I would accept their marketing of the "70MHz models with 4 channels and that 312.5MSa/s per channel with all 4 channels enabled" as that somehow fits the math.
312.5MSa/s is enough for 125MHz.
The 2.5:1 ratio is well established in the industry for sample rate:bandwidth.
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No CAN decoding meh :-- :palm:
we could also ask rigol as a firmware request: to add can bus decode
It couldn't hurt you to ask, true. Unless you hold breath until it arrives. It's clearly a commercial decision Rigol have taken, to differentiate it from the more expensive 900/1000/4000 series models.
Thanks. Sorry I was not at my computer - indeed then all anybody needs to do is flash their 800 series to 900 series firmwares. To then get the CAN bus decoding. So i don't see this as an issue in that case... sorry for any confusion here. (at least I am fine with that then, not so sure what the other guy was turning his nose up about).
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It is probably sign of times, I guess ....
It is NOT all right to deliberately design an instrument that violates basic principles of math and physics.
It is NOT all right to design it deliberately and with full knowledge that it will grossly violate sampling theorem and then say it is all right because you confessed to it in User manual.
HP/Agilent 54600-Series has entered the chat..
54621A/D "60Mhz" but 100MSa/s both channels
54622A/D "100MHz" but still 100MSa/s both channels
'Twas ever thus, in marketing departments. It doesn't mean that either weren't useful to those who purchased them, knowing what their limitations were.
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My biggest beef in all this:
* because the DHO1000 isn't portable / battery power-able
* then to transplant out the asic out from cheaper 804 --> DHO1000 will then loose those capabilities of a portable scope
To then have to buy either another 800 series scope for that dedicated purpose, or forgoe the higher bandwidths. Since to have both a 1000 + 800 seems a bit naf really.
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I would accept their marketing of the "70MHz models with 4 channels and that 312.5MSa/s per channel with all 4 channels enabled" as that somehow fits the math.
312.5MSa/s is enough for 125MHz.
The 2.5:1 ratio is well established in the industry for sample rate:bandwidth.
Let the experts here create some tests scenarios for the users of the 800/900 such we may get some data and analyze them, and we'll see how it performs in reality..
PS: I've shortlisted it and want to know more about it..
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Thanks. Sorry I was not at my computer - indeed then all anybody needs to do is flash their 800 series to 900 series firmwares. To then get the CAN bus decoding. So i don't see this as an issue in that case... sorry for any confusion here. (at least I am fine with that then, not so sure what the other guy was turning his nose up about).
The 900 has CAN decoding and the 800 doesn't?
That'll be hacked in the first day, too. :popcorn:
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Delta replacement fan test.
Dave desperately tries to find a good fan for the scope once again ;D. I understand the reason why: my friend can't cope even with a smallest noise in the office also :scared:.
Please anybody donate a good fan to Dave for this scope. Otherwise, I guess, we'll be waiting for him to make the full review forever.
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It is probably sign of times, I guess ....
It is NOT all right to deliberately design an instrument that violates basic principles of math and physics.
It is NOT all right to design it deliberately and with full knowledge that it will grossly violate sampling theorem and then say it is all right because you confessed to it in User manual.
HP/Agilent 54600-Series has entered the chat..
54621A/D "60Mhz" but 100MSa/s both channels
54622A/D "100MHz" but still 100MSa/s both channels
'Twas ever thus, in marketing departments. It doesn't mean that either weren't useful to those who purchased them, knowing what their limitations were.
Those has ETS mode. Rigol does not.
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Have you guys seen this video?
Did you watch it?
That is cool looking display mode. But what it is used for?
If you have any kind of persistence, you can overlay millions of captures to look for existence of the glitch. It is an old technique.
There are no measurements while it is running or displaying it. No decoding..
What will you use it for? It looks cool on on a shelf in a store but what do you use it for?
It is just a marketing gimmick....
Many of those visualization modes are already there on other scopes. With segmented mode you can overlay segments on Keysight, even on older Rigols. With segmented and history mode you can overlay captures on Siglent too. And they will measure and decode on that data...
What part of your process will it make so better that it will change your life?
The fact that you can immediately see the time distribution of infrequent events, though the 100 trace limit may limit its usefulness.
Persistance will tell you that something happened, but not how often or the distribution over time.
There are also event types that don't display well with persistence which would be much easier to see with the perspective mode.
I can think of a couple of situations where this would have saved me significant debugging time.
100 trace limit is exactly the point :it makes it cool but not really useful.
For instance: any scope that has history /segmented mode you can overlay and/or do animation... And can calculate distribution by using measurements...
Don't get me wrong, there are LeCroy scopes that can do these kinds of visualizations but on full data sets and full math. Where you can actually analyze things. With this Rigol implementation it is maybe just marginally (visually) better than classic infinite persistence.
Fun fact: on MSO3000T I can get statistics on glitches by capturing representative data and making a mask on it. Then by using mask mode I get count and stat on all anomalies. I can do same thing with Siglent.
You can also use search to search for anomalous pulse widths, risetimes or else.
On Picoscope you can also show all segments visually but that is useful for only few dozen segments.
If you have 10000 segments, fining something visually is simply punishment.
Breakthrough , a game changer, would be something like WaveScan on sub 2000€ scope.
Don't get me wrong, it is very nice step in right direction for Rigol.
But if you have a Siglent SDS1104X-E for instance, selling it and buying Rigol DHO800 would not be game changer in any case. It would be incremental positive step in analog performance (slightly better noise and 12 bit), touchscreen interface, and a step backwards in other analytical capacities: no history mode, no FRA, no CAN/LIN decode etc....
If you have MSO5000, unless you absolutely need low noise and 12 bit, it is a serious downgrade....
Fact is, only scope the DHO800/900 really directly competes with is Rigol's own DS1000Z/MSO series
And DHO814 would be upgrade to DS1000Z even if it were 8bit. With 12 bit low noise it is obvious replacement for DS1000Z.
And that is also Rigol's internal placement. You can see it in careful choice of decodes that matches DS1000Z.
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Those has ETS mode. Rigol does not.
whats the point of ETS on ns-risetime GSps scope? if anything, IT IS the marketing gimmick on entry level DSO today.. nitpick!
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Those has ETS mode. Rigol does not.
whats the point of ETS on ns-risetime scope? if anything, IT IS the marketing gimmick on entry level DSO today..
Way to pick a fight over what you did not understand...
I did not claim that Rigol needs ETS. I said that 30 year old scope that NE666 mentioned had 100 MHz BW with 100MSp/s because IT had ETS.
ETS is not a trick. It is operating principle to achieve super high equivalent sampling rate with slower ADCs. It is VERY useful for repetitive signals.
It is pretty much useless for anything else.
Therefore all general purpose scopes nowadays just use fast real-time sampling...
EDIT:
I see you edited post... Well in 4 ch mode Rigol DHO800 is sampling at 312,5 MSp/s. That is hardly exceptional... An in this instance I'm not the nitpick...
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Regarding the aforementioned Nyquist bandwidth shenanigans, presumably the scope channels' bandwidths are reduced automatically when three or four channels are enabled?
As the bandwidth for the different models is configured in software, I'd have hoped this was the case.
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Regarding the aforementioned Nyquist bandwidth shenanigans, presumably the scope channels' bandwidths are reduced automatically when three or four channels are enabled?
It's definitely possible but the manual seems to indicate it doesn't do that.
Maybe a future hack... :)
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On Picoscope you can also show all segments visually but that is useful for only few dozen segments.
If you have 10000 segments, fining something visually is simply punishment.
Breakthrough , a game changer, would be something like WaveScan on sub 2000€ scope.
Yes this is what I was thinking about too... to find anomalies after seeing such a feature demo'd an a much more expensive leading modern LeCroy setup. It seemed pretty much... completely effortless to identify intermittent failed logig transisions. You know - glitches that only occurs 1x randomly every few hundred times. That (on a normal / cheaper scopes) you are looking at the live / realtime updating and just see random flashes.
I am not saying that way cannot work either! It's just... maybe a bit less reliable method of detection? And also requiring (for example) that the scope itself can represent that on the display. Which is itself something can be limited by the decisions of the scope design. Of that specific scope. Wheras LeCroy's mathematical based analysis will trawl through the whole buffer for you. And you can then actually select and choose from a whole variety of different conditions to detect specific different types of anomalous behviours. Which could be... well a whole different categories of issues.
So THAT i was impressed with. And no - it's not really expected on such cheap scopes. But you know... would be really cool to see movement towards those general direction here. With newer firmware / platforms. Even not on this scope, but instead on the higher end DHO4000 series.
step backwards in other analytical capacities: no history mode, no FRA, no CAN/LIN decode etc....
If you have MSO5000, unless you absolutely need low noise and 12 bit, it is a serious downgrade....
Fact is, only scope the DHO800/900 really directly competes with is Rigol's own DS1000Z/MSO series
I think this assessment is wrong here because:
a) you can get CAN bus decode by flashing the 900 firmware, it's included there with a bit of hacking
b) this scope might be able to also compete with PORTABLE scopes. And that would be a killer application which the other scopes you are highlighting simply cannot actually do.
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b) this scope might be able to also compete with PORTABLE scopes. And that would be a killer application which the other scopes you are highlighting simply cannot actually do.
Here's one running from a USB powerbank:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-pre-sales-begin/?action=dlattach;attach=1874323;image)
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Has the user interface responsiveness improved over the DS1054Z? I owned a DS1054Z and really liked it... aside from the sluggish UI, which made me sell it for a Siglent.
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Has the user interface responsiveness improved over the DS1054Z?
Yes.
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Can anybody measure the screen precisely?
I'm definitely going to put a matte screen protector on mine. If somebody has the dimensions I can go looking for one today for when it arrives.
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Has the user interface responsiveness improved over the DS1054Z? I owned a DS1054Z and really liked it... aside from the sluggish UI, which made me sell it for a Siglent.
No one can give you a reliable answer at the moment, because hardly anyone has the new model.
In that case, they would also have to have the DS1054Z for comparison purposes.
But I know someone who can do that when the new scope is not only available but also in his hands. ;)
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No one can give you a reliable answer at the moment, because hardly anyone has the new model.
Dave's unboxing video has a few seconds of him twisting the knob and saying "It's responsive!"
(and it can zoom out!)
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Thanks. Sorry I was not at my computer - indeed then all anybody needs to do is flash their 800 series to 900 series firmwares. To then get the CAN bus decoding. So i don't see this as an issue in that case... sorry for any confusion here. (at least I am fine with that then, not so sure what the other guy was turning his nose up about).
Now you catch my attention, I seem to miss that DHO900 has CAN decoding, I want to buy a tablet scope with CAN decoding, micsig STO1004 was on my list, but this Rigol DHO800 hackable seems very interesting indeed.
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this Rigol DHO800 hackable seems very interesting indeed.
Not to single out this particular member, as the same is being repeated by others as "fact". However, perhaps a reminder is due that it is by no means *certain* yet that this (DHO800->900) can be done, at least not without negative effects.
It feels as if people have let the potential significance of this post slip past unheeded: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5062843/#msg5062843 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5062843/#msg5062843)
Until enough people actually have scopes in hand and can have tested it thoroughly, I'd advise being very conservative about purchasing an 800 series now if you must have 900 series functionality.
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this Rigol DHO800 hackable seems very interesting indeed.
Not to single out this particular member, as the same is being repeated by others as "fact". However, perhaps a reminder is due that it is by no means *certain* yet that this (DHO800->900) can be done, at least not without negative effects.
We're not talking about hardware hacking here. CAN bus decoding is in the firmware somewhere, it's a question of enabling it on the DHO800. I predict the chances are very good that it can be done.
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I predict the chances are very good that it can be done.
You mean, you're guessing / wishing. Meaningful prediction requires data. There's a difference.
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Dave's unboxing video has a few seconds of him twisting the knob and saying "It's responsive!"
Someone asks if the UI has become better/faster than the old rigol and you say "yes" - Based on a scene in a video ?
Not your serious or... ;)
(and it can zoom out!)
Ehh....Wow ?
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I am not able to read every single post regarding the new Rigols but let me share my thoughts on the bandwidth. I see a bit obsession with the sampling rate and the bandwidth. The Nyquist theorem (Shannon-Kotelnikov for folks growing up behind the iron curtain) is valid only in situations when the signal is restored using the sinc filter. Good that scopes have it by default. However, we also need to consider that the frequency response of the filter is not "brick-wall". The input stage will pass frequencies way above the corner frequency with just reducing the magnitude and increasing the group delay. The content after the fs/2 will be aliased. This happens always. The key is to keep levels of this aliased content below the resolution (simply said).
For the standard low-pass filter, we can already see the phase distortion kicking-in one decade below the cut-off. Oscilloscopes frequently use tricks such as equivalent sampling. This works, of course, only for repetitive signals that are stable over time.
Long story short, it is generally accepted that the sampling should be at least 10 times higher than the signal of interest. What I am trying to say is take it easy when you make your statements on sampling and the bandwidth. I just look at my old Infinium scope that is 500MHz/1GSa/s. There use to be even 1GHz scopes with only 100Msa/s, etc (Lecroy). Sometimes it really makes sense to have high bandwidth AFE even for relatively slow sampling ADC (1.25G/4 in case of DHOxxx). Especially if you work with single tone signals (but that's what spectrum analyzer is for).
PS: I am willing to discuss any error I made in my conclusions. I am just a human :-+
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(and it can zoom out!)
Ehh....Wow ?
How many orders of magnitude ?
Not gunna be pretty with such limited memory when all channels are active.
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I predict the chances are very good that it can be done.
You mean, you're guessing / wishing.
Not at all.
Meaningful prediction requires data. There's a difference.
The data is that it's not a hardware limitation and the firmware is wide open.
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Someone asks if the UI has become better/faster than the old rigol and you say "yes" - Based on a scene in a video ?
Not your serious or... ;)
Yep. :)
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Not gunna be pretty with such limited memory when all channels are active.
Oh, glub... tautech's found a horse and he's going to ride it into the ground.
5MPts / channel with all channels on isn't too shabby.
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Long story short, it is generally accepted that the sampling should be at least 10 times higher than the signal of interest.
Again, this statement has been generally un-accepted a long time ago. It stems from a time where sin x/x was hard to implement in a DSO and people thought a DSO should mimic an analog scope as much as possible. Nowadays users have a choice between less bandwidth + soft roll-off or maximum bandwidth nearly up to Nyquist with a sharp filter. And for sure the latter will have some aliasing but don't forget the probing solution typically has a filtering effect as well.
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I am not able to read every single post regarding the new Rigols but let me share my thoughts on the bandwidth. I see a bit obsession with the sampling rate and the bandwidth. The Nyquist theorem (Shannon-Kotelnikov for folks growing up behind the iron curtain) is valid only in situations when the signal is restored using the sinc filter. Good that scopes have it by default. However, we also need to consider that the frequency response of the filter is not "brick-wall". The input stage will pass frequencies way above the corner frequency with just reducing the magnitude and increasing the group delay. The content after the fs/2 will be aliased. This happens always. The key is to keep levels of this aliased content below the resolution (simply said).
For the standard low-pass filter, we can already see the phase distortion kicking-in one decade below the cut-off. Oscilloscopes frequently use tricks such as equivalent sampling. This works, of course, only for repetitive signals that are stable over time.
Long story short, it is generally accepted that the sampling should be at least 10 times higher than the signal of interest. What I am trying to say is take it easy when you make your statements on sampling and the bandwidth. I just look at my old Infinium scope that is 500MHz/1GSa/s. There use to be even 1GHz scopes with only 100Msa/s, etc (Lecroy). Sometimes it really makes sense to have high bandwidth AFE even for relatively slow sampling ADC (1.25G/4 in case of DHOxxx). Especially if you work with single tone signals (but that's what spectrum analyzer is for).
PS: I am willing to discuss any error I made in my conclusions. I am just a human :-+
ETS means that sampling was made at higher equivalent rate so it is not 100MSp/s sampling anymore.. So Nyquist (Shannon) criteria holds.
Downsampling signals with digital down converting IS domain of SA or SDR....
You can use it on scope as a deliberate technique. I think Performa01 did show some examples here on forum..
But scope should be able to handle it's own BW in full.
250MHz BW with 312,5MSp/s is just no...
DSO800 is officially 100MHz BW and that is fine.. DHO900 claims 250 MHz BW... That is either a big problem or they enable AA filtering to 100MHz, but they need to explain and document that.
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PS: I am willing to discuss any error I made in my conclusions. I am just a human :-+
no i think as you correctly point out - the relationship between the quoted nominal inpuut (analog) bandwidth versus the sampling rate is indeed somewhat fungible matter. not least because on the analog side the nominal bandwidth is the -3db or half power point (or 1/rt2 whatever it is). so a higher analog bandwidth would reduce that attenuation level at the upper end of the total usable frequency range.
and also as you point out - that other factors such as the resolution, or the accuracy (of the adc), or the time wise jitter. things like this can differently impact the resultant noise or confidence onto specific waveform types, or specific measurement types. whether it is some fft analysis (or bode), or the whole multi sampling / repeating waveform analysis.
so that all makes sense. but what i am seeing here is also that there is this camp of people making the 10x generalization (broadly across purposes). and theres the people quoting the nyquist 2x upper aliasing limit (for some sine wave or whatever). then i suppose the 6x is meant to be a sorta 'in-between' those 2 extremes perhaps?
so looking here at the 312ms/s for the industry std analog -3db attenuation bandwidth... that is how much? ---> about 50mhz for a 6x factor? is that a reasonable working generalization for 4 channels?
ah but if we need only 2 ch then its 100mhz. that is what another guy has already said here earlier on in the thread. (to maintain that 6x factor). i believe these are fair assessments.
but a nicer assessment will be after proper reviews with the supplied probes, and a costing breakdowns, for the 800 versus 900 choosing. and those other included features too. because that also feeds into the overall value proposition. for the total sticker price.
as a false advertising - yes i agree its disingenuous claims. but also that it 'doesnt hurt' so long as you understand the truth. rather that instead the 900 seems worse value doe to being priced too much higher than it idealls should be nearer to 800 series somewhere inbetween.
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5MPts / channel with all channels on isn't too shabby.
5yr old SDS1104X-E offers 7Mpts with all channels active or 14 with just 2 active.
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5MPts / channel with all channels on isn't too shabby.
5yr old SDS1104X-E offers 7Mpts with all channels active or 14 with just 2 active.
Actually I'm wrong... these go 50Mpts/25MPts/10Mpts with 1/2/3+4 channels enabled.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1876072;image)
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..
so that all makes sense. but what i am seeing here is also that there is this camp of people making the 10x generalization (broadly across purposes). and theres the people quoting the nyquist 2x upper aliasing limit (for some sine wave or whatever). then i suppose the 6x is meant to be a sorta 'in-between' those 2 extremes perhaps?..
Nope.. There are two arguments with 2 numbers basically:
a) the modern scopes require only 2.5xBW sample rate - because the newest scopes have well made design
b) the sample rate should be 4-5xBW - because that has been a traditional recommendation
The "..the sampling should be at least 10 times higher than the signal of interest.." above is not related to the BW, but to the "signal of interest" - that is something different (for example your signal of interest could be 10kHz sine wave).
Simply the claimed 250MHz BW and the 312.5MSa/s is on first glance a suspicious combo, and as 2N3055 wrote above we need some more detailed clarification in that regard (it could be the scope switches the BW down to 100MHz automatically when operating with all 4 channels enabled, or something like that).
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Long story short, it is generally accepted that the sampling should be at least 10 times higher than the signal of interest.
Again, this statement has been generally un-accepted a long time ago. It stems from a time where sin x/x was hard to implement in a DSO and people thought a DSO should mimic an analog scope as much as possible. Nowadays users have a choice between less bandwidth + soft roll-off or maximum bandwidth nearly up to Nyquist with a sharp filter. And for sure the latter will have some aliasing but don't forget the probing solution typically has a filtering effect as well.
Let's talk about the scope only. Probing is a completely different story that is likely less understood (I have the joy to work with IsoVu, occasionally).
What do you exactly mean that the user has a choice? How is the sharp filter implemented? What is generally believed to be sharp enough?
I have bit problems believing that scopes have a brick-wall filter as a part of the front-end. However, I have never analyzed any. What happens in software is irrelevant.
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I am not able to read every single post regarding the new Rigols but let me share my thoughts on the bandwidth. I see a bit obsession with the sampling rate and the bandwidth. The Nyquist theorem (Shannon-Kotelnikov for folks growing up behind the iron curtain) is valid only in situations when the signal is restored using the sinc filter. Good that scopes have it by default. However, we also need to consider that the frequency response of the filter is not "brick-wall". The input stage will pass frequencies way above the corner frequency with just reducing the magnitude and increasing the group delay. The content after the fs/2 will be aliased. This happens always. The key is to keep levels of this aliased content below the resolution (simply said).
For the standard low-pass filter, we can already see the phase distortion kicking-in one decade below the cut-off. Oscilloscopes frequently use tricks such as equivalent sampling. This works, of course, only for repetitive signals that are stable over time.
Long story short, it is generally accepted that the sampling should be at least 10 times higher than the signal of interest. What I am trying to say is take it easy when you make your statements on sampling and the bandwidth. I just look at my old Infinium scope that is 500MHz/1GSa/s. There use to be even 1GHz scopes with only 100Msa/s, etc (Lecroy). Sometimes it really makes sense to have high bandwidth AFE even for relatively slow sampling ADC (1.25G/4 in case of DHOxxx). Especially if you work with single tone signals (but that's what spectrum analyzer is for).
PS: I am willing to discuss any error I made in my conclusions. I am just a human :-+
ETS means that sampling was made at higher equivalent rate so it is not 100MSp/s sampling anymore.. So Nyquist (Shannon) criteria holds.
Downsampling signals with digital down converting IS domain of SA or SDR....
You can use it on scope as a deliberate technique. I think Performa01 did show some examples here on forum..
But scope should be able to handle it's own BW in full.
250MHz BW with 312,5MSp/s is just no...
DSO800 is officially 100MHz BW and that is fine.. DHO900 claims 250 MHz BW... That is either a big problem or they enable AA filtering to 100MHz, but they need to explain and document that.
I believe we both know how ETS works. Does the new DHO series support it?
250MHz BW with 312,5MSp/s is just no...
I am on the same page but I wonder how many customers for this product need this bandwidth.
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Simply the claimed 250MHz BW and the 312.5MSa/s is on first glance a suspicious combo, and as 2N3055 wrote above we need some more detailed clarification in that regard.
Plus why 250Mhz ?
Only for marketing arguments ?
Top model 4000 it´s bandwith drops down to 400Mhz when all channels are active, so it´s logical that the one adc model DHO1000 got max 200Mhz bandwith.
I wish the specs of the centaurus chipset were avaible.
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I'm wondering what the applications are for people in the target market of scopes like the DHO800 that even 100MHz+ BW would be a deciding factor? The more I look at these new scopes I think it's a miracle to see such a feature set (plus the possibility of battery power) available at under $400... I don't think things like 12bit in itself make this scope vastly superior to existing models, but when you wrap the whole package up it's certainly very attractive, especially for enthusiasts looking for their first 'real' scope. That the sampling rate drops down to 312M on 3 channels doesn't reduce it's value in it's target market - so long as that limitation is clearly communicated.
EDIT - consider that I think the SDS1104X-E is still $100 more, and the SDS1104X-U with a single ADC setup similar to how the DHO800 is designed is the same price. So it seems like a good comparison for the DHO800 would be the SDS1104X-U, and I'd have to say that if I was looking to purchase a scope and my budget was $400, this DHO800 would be a real contender.
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Long story short, it is generally accepted that the sampling should be at least 10 times higher than the signal of interest.
Again, this statement has been generally un-accepted a long time ago. It stems from a time where sin x/x was hard to implement in a DSO and people thought a DSO should mimic an analog scope as much as possible. Nowadays users have a choice between less bandwidth + soft roll-off or maximum bandwidth nearly up to Nyquist with a sharp filter. And for sure the latter will have some aliasing but don't forget the probing solution typically has a filtering effect as well.
Let's talk about the scope only. Probing is a completely different story that is likely less understood (I have the joy to work with IsoVu, occasionally).
What do you exactly mean that the user has a choice? How is the sharp filter implemented? What is generally believed to be sharp enough?
I have bit problems believing that scopes have a brick-wall filter as a part of the front-end. However, I have never analyzed any. What happens in software is irrelevant.
Just look at some of Dave's teardowns. In some you'll see an LC filter between the front-end and ADC with at least a 3rd order response (and addition to the filtering that already happens inside the frontend). Remember that the filter response also aliases beyond the Nyquist frequency. What happens in software is very relevant; in the end the purpose of an oscilloscope is to visualise a signal so our brains can understand what it looks like in the circuit. A DSO brings a lot to the table in that respect.
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..
I wish the specs of the centaurus chipset were avaible.
The Centaurus chipset should be 2GSa/s, afaik.. Why 1.25GSa/s in 800/900 then? Perhaps the lower grade FPGA in 800/900 limits the sample rate??
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So it seems like a good comparison for the DHO800 would be the SDS1104X-U, and I'd have to say that if I was looking to purchase a scope and my budget was $400, this DHO800 would be a real contender.
Absolutely and therefore I´ll compare the DHO804 not only to the DS1054Z, but also with a SDS1104X-E.
Having 12 bit is not really a buying argument in this pricerange, it just makes things more complicated to handle. ;)
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..
so that all makes sense. but what i am seeing here is also that there is this camp of people making the 10x generalization (broadly across purposes). and theres the people quoting the nyquist 2x upper aliasing limit (for some sine wave or whatever). then i suppose the 6x is meant to be a sorta 'in-between' those 2 extremes perhaps?..
Nope.. There are two arguments with 2 numbers basically:
a) the modern scopes require only 2.5xBW sample rate - because the newest scopes have well made design
If you want to extra correct, that 2.5x figure was based on typical filters and 8 bit sampling. A better filter is needed for 12 bits while retaining the same noise floor as LSB counts. If a better filter existed why was it not used before?
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So it seems like a good comparison for the DHO800 would be the SDS1104X-U, and I'd have to say that if I was looking to purchase a scope and my budget was $400, this DHO800 would be a real contender.
Absolutely and therefore I´ll compare the DHO804 not only to the DS1054Z, but also with a SDS1104X-E.
Having 12 bit is not really a buying argument in this pricerange, it just makes things more complicated to handle. ;)
Yep, 12 bit is just another feature within the full feature set.
Buyers would be unwise not to consider what any complete feature set offers and only focus on the 12 bit.
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ETS. Does the new DHO series support it?
No, it does not and not many scopes do nowadays..
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The Centaurus chipset should be 2GSa/s, afaik.. Why 1.25GSa/s in 800/900 then? Perhaps the lower grade FPGA in 800/900 limits the sample rate??
That's my theory - the cheapo FPGAs on the 800/900 series wouldn't be able to handle it.
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I'm wondering what the applications are for people in the target market of scopes like the DHO800 that even 100MHz+ BW would be a deciding factor?
The cost of these gadgets also varies with region so it's not just a choice between one or the other for some people, particularly those of us on a budget. For example, down here there is a much larger difference in price between the Siglent SDS1104X-E at $693, the Rigol DHO-804 at $824 and the DHO-814 around $968. I really wanted a new scope to include an RTC for timestamps and at this point I have no clue what the Rigol does with saved files. The Siglent is able to provide timestamps and also includes a free Special Customer Support Package (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=88225) so the choice for me is made.
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The Siglent is able to provide timestamps and also includes a free Special Customer Support Package
LOL, but you´re damn right ! ;D
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Not sure this has been posted yet (I checked the last handful of pages), but someone has already made a battery pack for the oscilloscope:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbBq1AVIQAc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbBq1AVIQAc)
https://github.com/LorenceChen/DHO800_BatteryPack (https://github.com/LorenceChen/DHO800_BatteryPack)
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The Siglent is able to provide timestamps and also includes a free Special Customer Support Package
LOL, but you´re damn right ! ;D
Oh yea I've used that before - No Charge! :-DD
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Today I tried to back up a 32G img. I bought a 64G A2V30 TF card and wrote the backed up img into it. Insert the TF card slot of the machine and turn it on to test the startup speed. But what is disappointing is that there is no visible speed increase in boot speed. So I guess that the boot speed is related to the Android virtual machine startup speed. This is determined by the performance of the soc and has nothing to do with IO.
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The Siglent is able to provide timestamps and also includes a free Special Customer Support Package
LOL, but you´re damn right ! ;D
Oh yea I've used that before - No Charge! :-DD
Yeah, it's a very good free international service with a fast response time! ^-^
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
Hi, can you please confirm? (for example in menus), that it's now has the CAN bus decode working on 804? Many thanks :-+
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
Hi, can you please confirm? (for example in menus), that it's now has the CAN bus decode working on 804? Many thanks :-+
CAN bus decoding runs on 924, so as long as DHO924 is displayed inside, this function can be used. It is configured by software
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I predict the chances are very good that it can be done.
You mean, you're guessing / wishing. Meaningful prediction requires data. There's a difference.
Well, guess what...?
CAN bus decoding runs
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..In some you'll see an LC filter between the front-end and ADC with at least a 3rd order response (and addition to the filtering that already happens inside the frontend). ..
There is an LC filter at the input of the ADC in each channel (see below).
Now, how it is tuned, in which BW..
The coils are rather large inductance, like several uH, imho, thus the low pass will be below 100MHz, my bet..
Edit: my wrong estimate as the coils are 0603 smd, so the inductance perhaps 15-50nH..
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Today I'm wondering if the 50M memory size could be raised.
I'm guessing they picked some round numbers that the FPGA could handle without bogging down but the RAM is all shared so maybe the size is completely configurable.
(...as long as we leave enough RAM left over to run the main app)
Maybe we could configure it for 100M and see what happens. :popcorn:
We need SD card images from all the different models so we can diff them. Is it only "vendor.bin" that changes?
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The coils are rather large inductance, like several uH, imho, thus the low pass will be below 100MHz, my bet..
This is an 804 running the 924 firmware and getting an 800ps rise time:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1876435;image)
Ref: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4978852/#msg4978852 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4978852/#msg4978852)
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Hello Fungus
This is an 804 running the 924 firmware and getting an 800ps rise time:
Question: which pulse generator did you use for this measurement?
Given that rise time would result in a BW(-3db) of ~440Mhz, right?
Ciao
U
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
Could you please post the image somewhere? Is there a way to write the TF card without taking the scope apart? Thanks a lot.
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If you want to extra correct, that 2.5x figure was based on typical filters and 8 bit sampling. A better filter is needed for 12 bits while retaining the same noise floor as LSB counts. If a better filter existed why was it not used before?
Agree, this gets well into the finer details of analog to digital signal processing, ADCs, and the effects of filter type/shape, aliasing, noise, # of bits, amplitude/phase linearity, ENOB and so on. You can't just slap on a 12 bit ADC in place of a 8 bit ADC, widen the data path and call it a day.
Best,
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
Could you please post the image somewhere? Is there a way to write the TF card without taking the scope apart? Thanks a lot.
I haven't found anything that can be done without removing the TF card. But for fragile stickers, you can use an air gun to heat them at 100 degrees. Use a knife to remove without damage.
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If you want to extra correct, that 2.5x figure was based on typical filters and 8 bit sampling. A better filter is needed for 12 bits while retaining the same noise floor as LSB counts. If a better filter existed why was it not used before?
Agree, this gets well into the finer details of analog to digital signal processing, ADCs, and the effects of filter type/shape, aliasing, noise, # of bits, amplitude/phase linearity, ENOB and so on. You can't just slap on a 12 bit ADC in place of a 8 bit ADC, widen the data path and call it a day.
And not to forget sampling clock jitter. It would be interesting to have an ENOB versus frequency graph. Chances are the anti-aliasing filter roll-off doesn't even matter between 8 or 12 bit.
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Hello Fungus
This is an 804 running the 924 firmware and getting an 800ps rise time:
Question: which pulse generator did you use for this measurement?
It wasn't me who did it, follow the link under the image.
(My 'scope won't arrive until the end of the month... :( )
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I haven't found anything that can be done without removing the TF card. But for fragile stickers, you can use an air gun to heat them at 100 degrees. Use a knife to remove without damage.
Yep. Learn to hack those stickers! ;)
On a related note: Has anybody tried using ADB over the USB connector after enabling debug mode? Does that work?
(hit the "about" button seven times...)
Instead of using USB to connect to adb, you can use the network to connect to adb. The port is 55555. eg. adb connect 192.168.10.193:55555
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I haven't found anything that can be done without removing the TF card. But for fragile stickers, you can use an air gun to heat them at 100 degrees. Use a knife to remove without damage.
Yep. Learn to hack those stickers! ;)
On a related note: Has anybody tried using ADB over the USB connector after enabling debug mode? Does that work?
If it does we can probably hack this to death without ever opening it up.
(hit the "about" button seven times... (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5059366/#msg5059366))
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What does it say in here? Is this firmware covered by GPL? :popcorn:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1876801;image)
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The coils are rather large inductance, like several uH, imho, thus the low pass will be below 100MHz, my bet..
I corrected my previous post - the inductors are something like 0603 smd on ceramic, so the inductance is much smaller, like 30-70nH.. Hard to say where the low pass ends as we need some estimation on the capacitors as well.
Below an example, how such input ADC filter may work (again, it is just an example, we do not know the exact values).
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If it does we can probably hack this to death without ever opening it up.
Well what might be cool would be if the running android could be rooted (remotely, over network connection). And then install net boot loader / uBoot whatever for this ARM soc that supports iPXE / tftp network LAN booting. Then you could reboot into a network served image (like a liveCD disk, so RO filesystem, loaded into a ramdisk)...
From that point it would then be possible to totally reflash the SD Card without it being mounted or anything. And without opening the device and voiding the warranty sticker. However to get back to factory status would then need to reflash again the bootloader image for the SoC (whether it's uBoot, coreboot or something else more proprietary based android bootloaders, IDK).
It is something to consider for those people wishing to preserve warranty options / restore to factory / resale value on these device.
However another ancilliary benefit might be a capability to instead just boot straight off USB connected disk. Since you are replacing the bootloader anyhow. This would then also be another way not to need to touch the build in SD card whatsoever. And preserve it as a fallback legacy boot option. This sort of approach probably needs more experience hacking about. And to ensure that the bootloader is providing necessary pre-boot hardware functionality 'alive' for the later stages. Not to break necessary hardware support(s).
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Instead of using USB to connect to adb, you can use the network to connect to adb. The port is 55555. eg. adb connect 192.168.10.193:55555
Is it always enabled by default?
If it is? It's a sign that they WANT us to hack this... :)
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Screen has 8 vertical divisions.
That's too bad. Really want 10 or more. Wonder if that could be changed via firmware updates.
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
Could you please post the image somewhere? Is there a way to write the TF card without taking the scope apart? Thanks a lot.
I haven't found anything that can be done without removing the TF card. But for fragile stickers, you can use an air gun to heat them at 100 degrees. Use a knife to remove without damage.
Thank you, would you be so kind to share the TF image file of the first batch 804?
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Instead of using USB to connect to adb, you can use the network to connect to adb. The port is 55555. eg. adb connect 192.168.10.193:55555
Is it always enabled by default?
If it is? It's a sign that they WANT us to hack this... :)
In Rigol's android scopes ADB was always active.
In startup script start_rigol_app.sh the command that should stop ADB service (stop adbd) was comented. It is here but they do not want to stop that service. Reasons can be multiple.
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What does it say in here? Is this firmware covered by GPL?
U-Boot bootloader is covered by GPL as well as the Linux/Android Kernel.
Most of the Android user space applications and services are covered by Apache license.
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Thank you,hubert.
My DHO804 is DHO924 now.
Two extra drams are only for LA.It can be unpopulate if doesn't use the LA .
The bandwidth is increased successfully.it has 800ps rise time now.
And the memory depth is 50M now.
What the heck is the "LA"? Linear Actuator? Lightening Arrestor? Log Analyzer? Line Adapter?
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Instead of using USB to connect to adb, you can use the network to connect to adb. The port is 55555. eg. adb connect 192.168.10.193:55555
Is it always enabled by default?
If it is? It's a sign that they WANT us to hack this... :)
haha，just do it
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
Could you please post the image somewhere? Is there a way to write the TF card without taking the scope apart? Thanks a lot.
I haven't found anything that can be done without removing the TF card. But for fragile stickers, you can use an air gun to heat them at 100 degrees. Use a knife to remove without damage.
Thank you, would you be so kind to share the TF image file of the first batch 804?
Unfortunately, I don't know how to upload a 32G img file to share with you. If you know how to do it please tell me
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Unfortunately, I don't know how to upload a 32G img file to share with you. If you know how to do it please tell me
hmm. perhaps see if it can compress anything firstly. then we are with the issue of where to upload, which is perhaps requiring some new cloud account signup...
idk what you can signup in china. but mega (20gb) or degoo (20gb), or google drive (sign up new gmail account, get 15gbs on it).
or you can use sendgb (5gb) without such account signup. to then split a compressed archive into smaller than 5gbs chunks. for example 4gb chunks.
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Dave was able to zip his image to 650MB, and up-loaded it to the files area. And it seems Fungus was able to compress it to 466MB with 7zip.
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Thank you,hubert.
My DHO804 is DHO924 now.
Two extra drams are only for LA.It can be unpopulate if doesn't use the LA .
The bandwidth is increased successfully.it has 800ps rise time now.
And the memory depth is 50M now.
What the heck is the "LA"? Linear Actuator? Lightening Arrestor? Log Analyzer? Line Adapter?
Logic analyzer
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Dave was able to zip his image to 650MB, and up-loaded it to the files area. And it seems Fungus was able to compress it to 466MB with 7zip.
Yes, you won't be able to compress more than this, and the forum can't host files this big. I use my own server to share mine, but you'll have to find another site to host it.
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Screen has 8 vertical divisions.
That's too bad. Really want 10 or more. Wonder if that could be changed via firmware updates.
I doubt they'll ever do that given the small screen.
But even the bigger DHO4000 still only has 8, so it's common scross all their new scopes.
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(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1876801;image)
Woah, you can change the HDMI resolution. The DHO4000 can't do that, so I went to try and update the firmware for it and the DHO4000 (or DHO1000) firmware isn't even available? :-//
https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/ (https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/)
EDIT: Just checked my DHO800 and it doesn't have a HDMI resolution option :-// (not the DSP option above that)
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You can read the CPU chip temp in the hardware test menu, great for hacking the fan ;D
Seems to update every few seconds.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_BYYgCqScE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_BYYgCqScE)
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Hi David,
If you touch 3 times the "About" text in the "Utiliy" menu then you will have the option to change the HDMI resolution in the "Other" menu.
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Unfortunately, I don't know how to upload a 32G img file to share with you. If you know how to do it please tell me
hmm. perhaps see if it can compress anything firstly. then we are with the issue of where to upload, which is perhaps requiring some new cloud account signup...
idk what you can signup in china. but mega (20gb) or degoo (20gb), or google drive (sign up new gmail account, get 15gbs on it).
or you can use sendgb (5gb) without such account signup. to then split a compressed archive into smaller than 5gbs chunks. for example 4gb chunks.
Ok, I tried compressing the img file to 7z. Which cloud storage I choose depends on the final product generated. Of course I will do the above things when I have time.
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If you touch 3 times the "About" text in the "Utiliy" menu then you will have the option to change the HDMI resolution in the "Other" menu.
I see the options briefly for a split second but I can't get it to stay up :-//
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Sorry, I forgot to mention that my DHO804 is now DHO924 (kind of...), maybe that's the reason :-DD
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Sorry, I forgot to mention that my DHO804 is now DHO924 (kind of...), maybe that's the reason :-DD
This mode (TestMode) is available in all Android models, even for DHO series.
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Sorry, I forgot to mention that my DHO804 is now DHO924 (kind of...), maybe that's the reason :-DD
This mode (TestMode) is available in all Android models, even for DHO series.
Same thing happens on the DHO4000, menu optionsjust flash up for a fraction of a second.
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There are three posibilities, you have a special firmware, you don't touch slow enough on the screen or you touch in the wrong place.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dHPxWyLqyN4hQU9c8
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ok but heres a silly question (its silly because it should not be necessary to resort to such elaborate methods...)
but if can attach the android adb (from another computer). and then launch the rigol andoid apk app. or vendor.bin whatever it is - instead of launching this binary executable in the normal fashoin. you could kill the running process instance. and prevent it from relaunching automatically...
then launch it manually yourself via the remote android adb debugger. this would then permit to pause and freeze the execution just before / after the touch event tapping the screen. to then use the step-thru and step-over (single step) debugging around that flashing of the screen.
and perhaps modify the settings value thru the android adb debugger.
but there could be much simpler and easier ways to modify the relevant setting directly. for example on the filesystem, or in the flash etc.
but another route is either file a bug report, asking rigol for a beta build with such fix in it. or alternatively do other things (which again, should be totally unnecessary or silly / too much work)
this is assuming that the observed behaviour is definately a bug in those firmware builds... or maybe it's actually a different type of bug. whereby your scope's own settings area has gotten corrupted. then the firmware is trying (correctly) to load or save those relevant settings page. but the action fails since that block or specific file of settings is in fact corrupt. which then is working fine on everybody else's scopes. (but that is just purely a speculation - i have no idea).
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There are three posibilities, you have a special firmware, you don't touch slow enough on the screen or you touch in the wrong place.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dHPxWyLqyN4hQU9c8
Thanks, that worked. I was hitting Other 3 times instead of About |O
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On every screenshot, the icon with styled R letter can be noticed in the bottom left corner. It's located in a place where it's hard to miss it. What is its purpose? Is it just a decoration or it bears some functional loading?
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On every screenshot, the icon with styled R letter can be noticed in the bottom left corner. It's located in a place where it's hard to miss it. What is its purpose? Is it just a decoration or it bears some functional loading?
It's the Start Menu Icon ... as is in Windows :D
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On every screenshot, the icon with styled R letter can be noticed in the bottom left corner. It's located in a place where it's hard to miss it. What is its purpose? Is it just a decoration or it bears some functional loading?
It opens the main menu.
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On the bottom right side of the display there is a loudspeaker icon, depending on how you press it it turn audio ON and OFF or you access to the Utlity Menu.
By the way we tested the unit with a 72Wh power bank today and it lasted about 1.5hours.
We posted the video on YT.
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indeed that was estimated based on such high constant power. which seems to be about the same sort of 30w both idle and full load. maybe due to the complex powering requirements of the fpga.
anyhow so this is actually why i feel 2x makita 18v hotswap bays (switch over a/b) configuration is best. because it lets you then about 4h for the airline-flyable 5ah packs. (each of those being around 100wh give or take).
but you could then potentially design a scheme to hotswap without power loss. or any interruption, and either use bigger or smaller (being anywhere between 2ah-9ah packs). and then not loose your work when the battery inconveniently runs out at the most inorpportune moment halfway thru your work. you could even continuusly cycle the cell packs to a nearby charging station to. for untethered operations in awkward spaces. i.e. (for example) automotive work. or up at the top of an antennae towers. or whatever other variety of less convenient stationary on the spot locations. that cannot pickup move and take the dut back to lab / workshop.
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On the bottom right side of the display there is a loudspeaker icon, depending on how you press it it turn audio ON and OFF or you access to the Utlity Menu.
By the way we tested the unit with a 72Wh power bank today and it lasted about 1.5hours.
We posted the video on YT.
Since you have the 924, have you been able to test maxing out the bandwidth to see how it performs? Or did I miss your report? There's lots of speculation (with good reason) that the sample rate can't support 250Mhz bandwidth without serious drawbacks, and I'm waiting for someone to weigh in on just how useful the 250Mhz bandwidth is in this scope. If it's entirely useable thanks to some magic sauce that Rigol has implemented, then I expect I may just spring for the 924S outright (despite its hackability, as the cost difference isn't enough for me to bother hacking it up). If however it's unusable or marginally so, I'll either wait for something better from Siglent, or satisfy myself with the 100Mhz model. No point spending the extra 100 bucks if it's not usable.
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The offset issue seems like to firmware related. DHO804 with firmware version 00.01.00(2023/07/21) will suffer offset after replace vendor.bin, while 00.01.14(2023/07/06) wont.
It could be the way to selfcal between two versions are different. Maybe someone could upload a vendor.bin from DHO924 with new firmware and I will try it.
An other way is to replace SD image to downgrade fw version and simply fix it, but teardown is needed :-//.
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There's lots of speculation (with good reason) that the sample rate can't support 250Mhz bandwidth without serious drawbacks, and I'm waiting for someone to weigh in on just how useful the 250Mhz bandwidth is in this scope.
The numbers don't add up with 4 channels enabled but it should be fine with only 1 or 2.
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The offset issue seems like to firmware related. DHO804 with firmware version 00.01.00(2023/07/21) will suffer offset after replace vendor.bin, while 00.01.14(2023/07/06) wont.
Apparently there's an extended calibration menu that can be enabled (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5059366/#msg5059366). Would that fix it?
(Maybe the "AFE zero" - I assume that's Analog Front End, but it ought to be doing that anyway)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1873279;image)
It could be the way to selfcal between two versions are different.
Nah.
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It could be that the different versions of the firmware are calibrating more or less items by default on that hidden menu.
hubertyoung, can you please take a look at your hidden calibration menu (via pressing "About" 3 times in the "Utility" menu) and tell us what you see? Thanks.
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.. and I'm waiting for someone to weigh in on just how useful the 250Mhz bandwidth is in this scope. ..
A suitable test scenario has to be created first.. E.g. how to measure "the sample rate vs. the BW" with 1 channel, 2 channels and 3/4 channels on - such we get some relevant results for each scope type/hack, ie. scope type original (with its hw revision, fw revision, etc.) vs. hacked scope type (with the fw revision, etc) - a table with numbers such the experts here may judge. Mind there are 70MHz models and 100MHz models which might be hacked to any other higher model. A detailed guide basically how to do it.. Otherwise we will still be speculating..
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Rigol are known for many things but lying about bandwidth isn't one of them
The manual for these even tells you there might be problems with 3/4 channels enabled.
A suitable test scenario has to be created first..
I'm not really worried about the claimed bandwidth but one thing that needs testing/characterizing is the probes that are supplied with the lower-spec models. There's no point enabling a 250Mhz front end if the probes aren't up to it.
(or maybe the probes will have a nice rolloff and help with the problem :) )
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Rigol are known for many things but lying about bandwidth isn't one of them
The manual for these even tells you there might be problems with 3/4 channels enabled.
A suitable test scenario has to be created first..
I'm not really worried about the claimed bandwidth but one thing that needs testing/characterizing is the probes that are supplied with the lower-spec models. There's no point enabling a 250Mhz front end if the probes aren't up to it.
(or maybe the probes will have a nice rolloff and help with the problem :) )
There is an higher order LC low pass in the front of the ADC in all channels (in 800/900/1000 series I saw videos of). It could easily be the low-pass has been tuned for each type (based on the BW) a little bit differently. It is not about what Rigol says or usually does, but what you will be measuring in reality. Also the various revisions of hw and fw might come with changes. Thus either people want "to know", or "it does not matter" for them how their stuff works in this price range..
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
Could you please post the image somewhere? Is there a way to write the TF card without taking the scope apart? Thanks a lot.
I haven't found anything that can be done without removing the TF card. But for fragile stickers, you can use an air gun to heat them at 100 degrees. Use a knife to remove without damage.
Thank you, would you be so kind to share the TF image file of the first batch 804?
the first batch 804, and 924 vendor.bin
https://mega.nz/file/06VDFaBI#3pmlujrkarmJ63_5Vh9VDz-VOt_nxBVmmBv0GXrSxZo
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There is an higher order LC low pass in the front of the ADC in all channels (in 800/900/1000 series I saw videos of). It could easily be the low-pass has been tuned for each type (based on the BW) a little bit differently. It is not about what Rigol says or usually does, but what you will be measuring in reality. Also the various revisions of hw and fw might come with changes. Thus either people want "to know", or "it does not matter" for them how their stuff works in this price range..
Are you suggesting that possibly even if the FW could be hacked, there may be model specific hardware differences that might prevent a lower spec model from running at the full bandwidth of a higher spec model, even if the software was not aware of the difference and identified itself properly as a higher spec model?
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I recall Azusa writing that the LC filters have a 300MHz cutoff.
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maybe they can afford to do something better factory calibration to the frontend? But is that really a thing here? (for these stages?)
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
Could you please post the image somewhere? Is there a way to write the TF card without taking the scope apart? Thanks a lot.
I haven't found anything that can be done without removing the TF card. But for fragile stickers, you can use an air gun to heat them at 100 degrees. Use a knife to remove without damage.
Thank you, would you be so kind to share the TF image file of the first batch 804?
the first batch 804, and 924 vendor.bin
https://mega.nz/file/R7EgwSJC#FWBNraDHczaTwcVX_kuTKkTImUm37a1ZZnZf2uaGMHU
Many thanks
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On the bottom right side of the display there is a loudspeaker icon, depending on how you press it it turn audio ON and OFF or you access to the Utlity Menu.
[...]
Can it also turn off the noise of the fan? >:D
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Are you suggesting that possibly even if the FW could be hacked, there may be model specific hardware differences that might prevent a lower spec model from running at the full bandwidth of a higher spec model
No.
People have already fiddled with the firmware and seen/measured 250Mhz on the lowest model (DHO804).
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I was just grepping the DHO800 firmware image uploaded earlier and the words "power analysis" are there in a few places. :popcorn:
I wonder if it can be enabled.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1877725;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1877731;image)
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the first batch 804, and 924 vendor.bin
I assume they're encrypted or something because they're completely different inside.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1877737;image)
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I assume they're encrypted or something because they're completely different inside.
here is answer from the thread on hacking the 1000 / 4000 series:
A tool to decrypt the vendor.bin and generate a license key can be found here: https://gitlab.com/riglol/rigolee/hdo-tools. (https://gitlab.com/riglol/rigolee/hdo-tools.) To use the license generator, one must have ssh access to the scope, to extract the key file from it (or use usb-uart and extract it like that somehow). Best extract the key at least once, and back it up, before updating any firmware, who knows what gets locked down later ;)
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Theoretically yes. When people here indicate the modern scopes use lower sample rate vs. BW (like 2.5xBW) because the newer design includes better/sharper filters (ie. the existing LC higher order low-pass filter at each of the ADC's inputs) - and the 800/900 models indeed are designed that way, it seems - there is always a probability they designed the low-pass filters such the filter's BW fits the particular model - it means the 70MHz model would require a differently designed filter as the 100MHz model or the 250MHz model, etc. How the real situation is - I do not know..
PS: the LC filters at the ADC input are hardwired, you cannot change them in software, you have replace them on the pcb.
There is an higher order LC low pass in the front of the ADC in all channels (in 800/900/1000 series I saw videos of). It could easily be the low-pass has been tuned for each type (based on the BW) a little bit differently. It is not about what Rigol says or usually does, but what you will be measuring in reality. Also the various revisions of hw and fw might come with changes. Thus either people want "to know", or "it does not matter" for them how their stuff works in this price range..
Are you suggesting that possibly even if the FW could be hacked, there may be model specific hardware differences that might prevent a lower spec model from running at the full bandwidth of a higher spec model, even if the software was not aware of the difference and identified itself properly as a higher spec model?
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it means the 70MHz model would require a differently designed filter as the 100MHz model or the 250MHz model, etc. How the real situation is - I do not know..
Unlike the 1000/4000 models, you can't buy a single upgrade(bandwith, memory, decoding, etc.), as of now.
Neither for the 800 nor for the 900.
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When you look at the pcb close to the ADC you may see there the 4 filters - each of them consists of 4 inductors and 2 capacitors (see my simulation example above) in all 800/900/1000/4000 models. What could be different in each model are the values of the L and C components which determine the BW and roll-off of the filter.
That filter in each channel is the CSF for your hacking effort :D
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How the real situation is - I do not know..
Unlike the 1000/4000 models, you can't buy a single upgrade(bandwith, memory, decoding, etc.), as of now.
Neither for the 800 nor for the 900.
Yes, but logistically it makes far more sense to only manufacture one variant of PCB then soft-select the bandwidth based on incoming orders.
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What could be different in each model are the values of the L and C components which determine the BW and roll-off of the filter.
I'm more with Fungus, I can't imagine that rigol makes the effort and equips different values.
We will find out soon, or I would measure my 804 first so, then after the hack on 100Mhz or higher.
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What could be different in each model are the values of the L and C components which determine the BW and roll-off of the filter.
I'm more with Fungus, I can't imagine that rigol makes the effort and equips different values.
We also know they didn't make the effort to remove all the LA components from the 800's PCB. It has a lot of unnecessary components.
The only conclusion is that running two separate production lines would be more expensive than leaving them on.
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Theoretically yes. When people here indicate the modern scopes use lower sample rate vs. BW (like 2.5xBW) because the newer design includes better/sharper filters (ie. the existing LC higher order low-pass filter at each of the ADC's inputs) - and the 800/900 models indeed are designed that way, it seems - there is always a probability they designed the low-pass filters such the filter's BW fits the particular model - it means the 70MHz model would require a differently designed filter as the 100MHz model or the 250MHz model, etc. How the real situation is - I do not know..
No. The filter is the same for all models; it is the anti-aliasing filter for the ADC. The bandwidth limit is set in the analog front-end as a first order roll-off. You can buy analog front-end amplifier chips that have this feature. It also allows for user selectable bandwidth limits. It is all software.
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Theoretically yes. When people here indicate the modern scopes use lower sample rate vs. BW (like 2.5xBW) because the newer design includes better/sharper filters (ie. the existing LC higher order low-pass filter at each of the ADC's inputs) - and the 800/900 models indeed are designed that way, it seems - there is always a probability they designed the low-pass filters such the filter's BW fits the particular model - it means the 70MHz model would require a differently designed filter as the 100MHz model or the 250MHz model, etc. How the real situation is - I do not know..
No. The filter is the same for all models; it is the anti-aliasing filter for the ADC. The bandwidth limit is set in the analog front-end as a first order roll-off. You can buy analog front-end amplifier chips that have this feature. It also allows for user selectable bandwidth limits. It is all software.
Yep, to as you say the limit of the analog input design.
Then the VGA determines the model by limiting BW.
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Has anyone investigated adding back the logic analyzer functionality yet? From what I've read so far, it sounds like you'll need to solder in the two missing DRAM chips, is that right?
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Apparently there's an extended calibration menu that can be enabled (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5059366/#msg5059366). Would that fix it?
Sadly, offset is still there.
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hmmm, amazing :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD
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hmmm, amazing :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD
Can you share your findings?
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hmmm, amazing :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD
Can you share your findings?
Through this link https://gitlab.com/riglol/rigolee/hdo-tools I have obtained a method for generating licenses. Then, with the help of DHO900's programming manual, modify the code in rgtool.go.
1. Flag. StringVar (&deviceId, "id", "HDO4XXXXXX", "device Id") at line 29 changes HDO4XXXXXX to DHO9XXXXXX,
2. The return value of the MakeLicense method is fmt. Printf ("HDO4000-% s @% s", feature, res) at line 164, where HDO4000 is modified to DHO900.
3. At line 224, modify the ': SYSTEM: OPT: INST% v' of fmt. Printf (': SYSTEM: OPT: INST% v', lic) to ': SYSTem: OPTion: INSTall'
4. The array of options at line 212 has been modified to BODE. Currently, I have read the manual that only supports this type of authorization.
After completing the above modifications, rerun the rgtool.go and the output will be printed in the terminal. For example.
: SYSTem: OPTion: INSTall DHO900-BODE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxf080b6c8
Then connect the oscilloscope to the network cable and use the menu on the web to enter the above content. You can install authorization.
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Has anyone investigated adding back the logic analyzer functionality yet? From what I've read so far, it sounds like you'll need to solder in the two missing DRAM chips, is that right?
I'm going to try. I've got a DHO804 and I've designed a clone logic analyser board, but I haven't built + tested it yet (just waiting for the components to arrive):
https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/ (https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/)
I'm not brave enough to solder those DRAM chips myself, so I need to find a local expert for that.
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Sorry for the lazy question (I could have searched it):
What is the price difference between both models? Does it economically make sense to solder DRAM's and a custom made PCB?
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Sorry for the lazy question (I could have searched it):
What is the price difference between both models? Does it economically make sense to solder DRAM's and a custom made PCB?
The cost between the cheapest DHO804 and the cheapest DHO914 is 240€ or £205 (Rigol EU, inc 20% VAT). The DHO900 series would still require a separate logic analyser, it just has the 50-way connector on the front of the scope: the Rigol PLA2216 is another £304 / 356€. Hence the attractiveness of a cheap clone logic analyser board that works with the 900 (and maybe a hacked 800)!
The DHO914S model with the AFG is another 120€ or £105 on top of those prices.
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The cost between the cheapest DHO804 and the cheapest DHO914S is 360€ or £310 (Rigol EU, inc 20% VAT).
You don't have to buy the 'S' model though. The ordinary DHO914 costs less.
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The whole thing can be summarize as such:
For the money AFG / AWG just doesn't seem worth it, given the price differences. Which is (other than better probes, or to test the product's performance) the only clear reason for not getting the 804.
But even for the difference beterr 914 and 914S it's just such a meh AWG (single channel, 25mhz)... makes getting a dedicated function generator then such a much more attractive prospect. For example the UNI-T UTG962E (which is 2ch, 60mhz).
Especially if you got the 804. Then your remaining budgetary coins might have left over even yet for something like nanoVNA also (to do the bode plots with).
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Guys , if you have a DHO914 or DHO924 note without (S)AFG please send a snapshot image of the system about here, I would like to see how the hardware version number is different. Thank! :-+
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Has anyone investigated adding back the logic analyzer functionality yet? From what I've read so far, it sounds like you'll need to solder in the two missing DRAM chips, is that right?
I'm going to try. I've got a DHO804 and I've designed a clone logic analyser board, but I haven't built + tested it yet (just waiting for the components to arrive):
https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/ (https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/)
I'm not brave enough to solder those DRAM chips myself, so I need to find a local expert for that.
Have you done equal length differential signal processing? The signals I understand may have frequencies of tens of megabytes
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Has anyone investigated adding back the logic analyzer functionality yet? From what I've read so far, it sounds like you'll need to solder in the two missing DRAM chips, is that right?
I'm going to try. I've got a DHO804 and I've designed a clone logic analyser board, but I haven't built + tested it yet (just waiting for the components to arrive):
https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/ (https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/)
I'm not brave enough to solder those DRAM chips myself, so I need to find a local expert for that.
Hi,
I have managed to install the key, got the 4th option in the menu (BODE PLOT) but I can't find the BODE option in the menu.
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have managed to install the key, got the 4th option in the menu (BODE PLOT) but I can't find the BODE option in the menu.
yes but does it need the 's' hardware (built in awg module) to drive the signal for doing a bode plot? or is there some chances of a capability to drive with external signal instead? (for example like siglent eh)
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...Then your remaining budgetary coins might have left over even yet for something like nanoVNA also (to do the bode plots with).
I don't think it's possible to do a Bode Plot with it in the audio frequency region though.
As far I could tell, the lowest frequency on the nanoVNA variants start at 10KHz ... 50KHz.
If I'm wrong, please let me know because I'm interested.
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not so straightforward / not so easy. but there are methods in hardware to mix down frequency into lower domains. and so there are ways but...
for audio range you might be better off just using a more appropriate equipment then. so the example given was standalone regular awg for that task. but if i understand your query it's more about integrations to automatically run the sweep to generate the graphs.
nano vna is more about testing antennas and higher freq work.
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The integrated bode plot is actually a very useful feature. I use it sometimes with R&S scope and it works well. It is not for RF stuff but definitely great for audio or loop stability investigation.
My next scope has to support this. Either externally or with the in-built AWG.
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A scope that I could integrate with my AWG is in the shop list, for the Bode plot option that has to be in the audio region.
A nanoVNA is also in consideration. But acquiring certain things takes it's time ::)
This new scopes (at least DHO1000 and 4000) that do not integrate an AWG, should be capable of using an external AWG to enable Bode Plot option, as Siglent does in many scopes
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Owon is releasing new oscilloscopes on Android - there is also a 14-bit model - with a generator (FRA) - with a built-in power supply :o
https://www.owon.com.hk/products_owon_fds1000_series_multifunction_dso (https://www.owon.com.hk/products_owon_fds1000_series_multifunction_dso)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVLcx6H-neQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVLcx6H-neQ)
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Have you done equal length differential signal processing? The signals I understand may have frequencies of tens of megabytes
My first attempt doesn't length-match the differential signals. I looked at previous clone boards and no one bothered! The popular design by Sergey Petrukhin for example has up to 3mm difference within a differential pair.
But Dave's teardown video clearly shows Rigol made an effort with the logic analyser signals on the scope motherboard, so I'm updating my PCB design to length-match to (much) less than 0.1mm difference. It should be good enough for the 200MHz max bandwidth that the (official) Rigol logic analyser is rated for?
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Hi,
I have managed to install the key, got the 4th option in the menu (BODE PLOT) but I can't find the BODE option in the menu.
Maybe it checks for the signal generator hardware.
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But even for the difference beterr 914 and 914S it's just such a meh AWG (single channel, 25mhz)...
Especially if you got the 804. Then your remaining budgetary coins might have left over even yet for something like nanoVNA also (to do the bode plots with).
The 914S will do audio frequencies. The NanoVNA won't.
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But even for the difference beterr 914 and 914S it's just such a meh AWG (single channel, 25mhz)...
Especially if you got the 804. Then your remaining budgetary coins might have left over even yet for something like nanoVNA also (to do the bode plots with).
The 914S will do audio frequencies. The NanoVNA won't.
You misquoted my comment by entirely removing the line in-between. My point was that the price jump is so much that you could afford both a standalone AWG and then also have even room left for something like a nanoVNA. That was to double highlight the relatively poor value. But if you remove that line you are misrepresenting the intentions there... yes standalone AWG vs integrated is really the thing here that is what you are paying for. And maybe I don't value that as much as other people do seem to here (what actually is the relative hike to the 914S? $400 vs $700?).
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OK so let's take a step back and re-examine the fundamental nature of the problem here...
Nobody really wants to add themselves back in the 914S's awg into an 800 series. Because it's such an undertaking, a lot of components. The complexity and for $300 of a person's time (at least as some individual / standalone 1-off project). It's just generally considered by a lot of us as an unattractive prospect. Compared to paying over some dough and getting a product with a build in AWG. OK agreed then.
Problem is bode plot isn't enabled. Ok then. But the scope is digitally controlling the AWG, checking if it's responding (present). And then telling it to do it's sweep etc. for whatever built-in functions. To get the body plot.
So how about instead of re-creating fully ourselves the entire original 'meh' (as i would put it) 25mhz 1ch AWG. Why don't we just put in a simple hardware interface. To fool the scope into thinking the AWG is present. And make a low level digital interface that then sends those commands to an external standalone AWG? For example the one I mentioned earlier was something like a UNI-T UTG962E (which is 2ch, 60mhz).
Then we would still not have such an integrated all-in-1 solution. But we could then upgrade our 804s by buying a BETTER awg, and then basically the scope has become a bit like a remote control for it? Could this be a realistic prospect? Because if yes then... I'm definately all up from that.
There still might be a few people who need to use these features on battery powered for mobile / field work applications. That having it all neatly inside the scope is more attractive... those people still would not be served by this type of a solution so well. And might prefer to pay those extra monies for the Rigol 914S instead of the cheaper 804.
However for everybody else it's a cheaper / more incremental step-by-step upgrade path to follow. That is then assuming it's not an infeasible concept that's not going to work. Probably needs more investigation and looking into. But also needs some example 914S. To work from.
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If we can run python on the oscilloscope we can make a bode plot like described
here (https://github.com/jbtronics/DS1054_BodePlotter)
with a generator that accepts scpi commands 😊
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Just found out some details about Rigol RT1642IQ used in frontend of DHO series... if someone interested
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well yes, there is the choice of hacking the firmware alone, to trigger some actions that then communicates over one of the general purpose digital interfaces on the scope (whether that is via the ethernet, or usb, or something else). the advantage of that is then should not require any hardware mods / hacking whatsoever. which gives itself a potential to keep a viable product warranty.
then there's the idea of minimally hacking the pcb awg section there, to install some low level mcu digital interface within the scope. to then relay the commands (like you say, perhaps scpi, but whatever the specific choice is...). this approach then requires some degree of hardware hacking. but then you don't need to fight the firmware. because you are fooling the mostly-standard 900 series firmware (and/or the android app). or it is being altered more minimally.
then there's the prospect of doing either of those above things. but more heavily hacking (for example) the menu choices for the built in capabilities to fool the scope even further. to unlock awg above the built in 25mhz. all the ways up to whatever higher specs your external awg actually supports.
for taking something like a bode, my understanding is that it's however many data points gets plotted. that the awg is given an instruction for each data point. then there is some short delays for the signal to settle before the scope actually takes a snapshot of the measurement. before moving on... so then any extra processing burdens (within the scope's running software, to be sending these commands)... it should not negatively affect the measurements?
rather any hardware side mods on the awg section would need to be carefully considered for digital noise within the scope. which might or maybe not be needed after all. depending whether or not this is feasibly done all over the existing built in communications interfaces. or rather which route has the fewer obstacles overall.
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standalone AWG vs integrated is really the thing here
That assumes the 'scope can use an external AWG, which I don't think it can.
(at least, there's nothing in the manual).
Will it be hackable? Possibly. We're getting into big hacks now though.
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That assumes the 'scope can use an external AWG, which I don't think it can.
I don't believe that either, at least I'm not aware of that with other Rigol models.
If they had integrated Bodeplot, then always when there is also a built-in AWG.
That you can also use external AWGs would only be a finger exercise in the software - But rigol and software...
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That you can also use external AWGs would only be a finger exercise in the software - But rigol and software...
Maybe in that APK there's a function "setAWGFreq();" that can be replaced. :popcorn:
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I picked up my Rigol DHO804 from UPS a few hours ago. This is from the Aliexpress seller.
I had to play for about 1h so this is the first impression with me mostly testing the 12bit ADC resolution.
Did not even connected anything to the input it still has the plastic caps.
Bad part is the nasty plastic smell hopefully that will go away but is very strong.
Here is what I got in the box (seems it has the Lenovo power supply). And the plug looks like Australian version with a US/Canada adapter.
(https://electrodacus.com/RIGOL/Rigol1.jpg)
The hardware and software version
(https://electrodacus.com/RIGOL/Rigol2.jpg)
Settings I done to save the waveform in .csv format and from memory not screen.
(https://electrodacus.com/RIGOL/Rigol3.jpg)
First I set the channel 1 to 50mV/div and 20ms/div stop the acquisition and then zoomed on screen 100x to 0.5mV/div
As it can be seen 12bit data was captured thus still some points at 100x zoom as many as expected
(https://electrodacus.com/RIGOL/RigolDS1.png)
Then I reduced the vertical resolution to 500uV and reacquired the signal to see if is a true 500uV at 12bit and yes it is as you can see from the csv if you want to download the step is about 1.1uV as expected with 4mV per screen (8div * 500uV) and 4mV / 4096 = 1uV step.
(https://electrodacus.com/RIGOL/RigolDS3.png)
download the 500uV csv file from here https://electrodacus.com/RIGOL/RigolDS3.csv (https://electrodacus.com/RIGOL/RigolDS3.csv)
download the 50mV csv file from here https://electrodacus.com/RIGOL/RigolDS2.csv (https://electrodacus.com/RIGOL/RigolDS2.csv)
I have a DS1054z if anyone wants any sort of comparison. But there is no discussion that DHO804 is superior on any aspect. The user interface is super responsive no comparison with DS1054z. I think the fan is not as noisy as some made it look and not sure but I think DS1054z is noisier by quite some margin.
Form factor is excellent also. Touchscreen is useful and responsive but buttons are also good.
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I picked up my Rigol DHO804 from UPS a few hours ago.
Now that you have a unit to try out, one minor thing I was curious about is if there is any support for a USB keyboard? The user guide mentions USB mouse support, but I don't see any mention of USB keyboard support. If you plug in a USB keyboard, does it do anything when the onscreen virtual keypad is displayed, for example to rename the waveform labels from the default CH1, CH2, etc? Do the arrow keys do anything to scroll or zoom the waveform display, or move cursors, or do anything else?
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Now that you have a unit to try out, one minor thing I was curious about is if there is any support for a USB keyboard? The user guide mentions USB mouse support, but I don't see any mention of USB keyboard support. If you plug in a USB keyboard, does it do anything when the onscreen virtual keypad is displayed, for example to rename the waveform labels from the default CH1, CH2, etc? Do the arrow keys do anything to scroll or zoom the waveform display, or move cursors, or do anything else?
I just tested using my Logitech MX mini keyboard and mouse combo so a single receiver and while the mouse works the keyboard will not do anything in any menu.
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the keyboard will not do anything in any menu.
Not really surprising.
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Was shooting the review video and this happened, WTF!
EDIT: It's NOT the DHO800 at fault! Follow-up video shot on the 2nd channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FlQnPsZCdE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FlQnPsZCdE)
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Bad part is the nasty plastic smell hopefully that will go away but is very strong.
There is an operational "hot" smell. It's a bit disconcerting.
Then I reduced the vertical resolution to 500uV and reacquired the signal to see if is a true 500uV at 12bit and yes it is as you can see from the csv if you want to download the step is about 1.1uV as expected with 4mV per screen (8div * 500uV) and 4mV / 4096 = 1uV step.
Rigol specifically said the 500uV range is software magnified 1mV, so :-//
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Even the much more expensive DHO4000 does not have a "real" 500microvolt, rather few scopes on the market do.
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Rigol specifically said the 500uV range is software magnified 1mV, so :-//
If you look at the .csv file the steps are about 1.1uV for the waveform captured while at 500uV/div
In any case 1.1uV is not that useful due to noise floor but I think it is there and they have a real 500uV range.
A strange thing I notice is that I can have 25Mbps of memory only on channel 1 (not one channel but only specifically channel 1). The max is just 10Mbps if I have only channel 2 enabled, same for 3 and 4.
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Even the much more expensive DHO4000 does not have a "real" 500microvolt, rather few scopes on the market do.
If it was just 1mV and then digital zoom I will have expected to see about 2uV steps in the csv file and not 1.1uV.
It is a bit strange that is 1.1uV and not 0.98uV but is much closer to 1uV than 2uV.
It is not really useful and likely the reason they did not implemented that in the DHO4000 even the 1mV is a bit of a stretch (it is OK on 8bit oscilloscopes but you can not take advantage of 12bit at 500uV and 1mV unless you want to measure the scope noise).
Here I used math function to be able to have a 20x vertical zoom on the CH1
I also experimented with the inverse color screenshot.
(https://electrodacus.com/RIGOL/RigolDS18.png)
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Pricing has changed!
Before:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1856929;image)
Now:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1879204;image)
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Did you change the trigger to the active channel as well?
Peter
I just tested now and yes I have 25Mpts available if I enable the trigger to the single enabled channel.
Not sure why that will be needed as I can stop the acquisition without using a trigger especially if it is a repetitive signal.
In any case is good to know. Is that similar on other oscilloscopes ?
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the keyboard will not do anything in any menu.
Not really surprising.
Ya think !
Really any touch display DSO should support mouse and keyboard without issue.
Even with virtual keyboards one gets tired of them before long.
Even any of the cheapest wireless USB pairing from Asia should work without issue.
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
I tried to reproduce this method today: after flashing the tf card the offset does appear and can be calibrated, but then replacing the 924's vendor.bin the offset is still there!
May I ask which firmware version should I see after flashing a tf card?
Thanks a lot.
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I can confirm same thing happend to me. As soon as the vendor.bin was replaced, the vertical offset came back. I ran both the self cal and the extended self cal (accessed by tapping on the about menu). The offset was still there. @hubertyoung's upload image has a firmware version of 1.00.
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I can confirm same thing happend to me. As soon as the vendor.bin was replaced, the vertical offset came back. I ran both the self cal and the extended self cal (accessed by tapping on the about menu). The offset was still there. @hubertyoung's upload image has a firmware version of 1.00.
I thought I'd summarize what I've tried:
Push the 924's vendor.bin directly:
The scope identifies itself as DHO924 (max bandwidth 250M) with firmware 00.01.00, at this point, there is an offset on all channels that calibration cannot remove.
Flash the DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL (I call it OLD.GEL) sits in the scope's file system :
The scope identifies itself as DHO804 (max bandwidth 200M) with firmware 00.01.00, and no waveform display.
Push the 924's vendor.bin again, the scope identifies itself as DHO1074, and no waveform display.
I used build_gel.sh to back up the current version of firmware before everything mentioned above was done. (I call it NEW.GEL)
Flash it and push the 924's vendor.bin:
The scope identifies itself as DHO814 (max bandwidth 100M) with firmware 00.01.06(?), at this point, there is an offset on all channels that can be removed for calibration.
photos can be found here:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mk9uaXJK62KCiBlWOMd4-EZoAnFZniq1?usp=sharing
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I can confirm same thing happend to me. As soon as the vendor.bin was replaced, the vertical offset came back. I ran both the self cal and the extended self cal (accessed by tapping on the about menu). The offset was still there. @hubertyoung's upload image has a firmware version of 1.00.
So... it seems like there's some sort of coarse calibration done on each one at the factory?
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Even with virtual keyboards one gets tired of them before long.
But it's nowhere near as tiresome as using a twisty knob for everything...
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Even with virtual keyboards one gets tired of them before long.
But it's nowhere near as tiresome as using a twisty knob for everything...
You need....touch, mice, keyboards and knobs .......all to work or you've been sold a pup.
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I like using RTB with one of those small keyboards with touchpad from logitech. It makes my work way easier. This RTB is nice but i clearly can see how Siglent is more polished with attention to the detail.
PS: This SDmicro card inside gives me nightmares :D
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if it's based on some older android build then my suggestion would be simply to try a different keyboard. However if you can get debugging console / cmdline then could watch the system logs or something. And see if there is some error message printed when the usb identification fails... that might tell you the actual reason. Whether the keyboard is not powered (not enough juice from the USB port). Or no driver / not supported. Or something else (for example usb 1.1 versus 2.0 versus usb 3.0 negotiation failed on the host usb port, or that HID profile wasn't loaded properly, or any other such reasons).
[edit] because while I think it's reasonable to hope Rigol will keep the base android version updated... it probably won't? Or otherwise it might, but it's not as reasonable for Rigol to support all random peripherals (to varying degrees of compatibility) with their fixed scope hardware. When their firmware team needs to spend more of it's time fixing actual scope firmware / software issues. I would rather prefer they used their time for that instead... you know: to make the actual scope part better.
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[edit] because while I think it's reasonable to hope Rigol will keep the base android version updated...
In my albeit more limited experience of Android based gear, it seems very rare for the manufacturer to maintain the Android OS unless some critical bug is found that affects operation of the device. For many products this is not an issue, but for network connected products security may be something you need to keep in mind over time. Of course, you should always be operating on the assumption that a network device may be insecure.
Edit - but I would not expect a manufacturer like Rigol to keep providing Android OS updates just to offer new features in future OS versions for example. The OS in the product you buy is likely to to remain the OS running the product for it's lifetime. There is a lot of work customizing the Android OS for a hardware product - AND QC testing it, and typically little incentive to invest additional programming for a released product vs investing in future products.
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Did you change the trigger to the active channel as well?
Peter
I just tested now and yes I have 25Mpts available if I enable the trigger to the single enabled channel.
Not sure why that will be needed as I can stop the acquisition without using a trigger especially if it is a repetitive signal.
In any case is good to know. Is that similar on other oscilloscopes ?
I discovered this quirk as well, it's in my review.
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Push the 924's vendor.bin again, the scope identifies itself as DHO1074
:-X
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You need....touch, mice, keyboards and knobs .......all to work or you've been sold a pup.
For less than $400? I think I've been sold a complete bargain...
if it's based on some older android build then my suggestion would be simply to try a different keyboard. However if you can get debugging console / cmdline then could watch the system logs or something. And see if there is some error message printed when the usb identification fails... that might tell you the actual reason.
Yep. The first thing we need to know is if this is a hardware thing or a software thing. The little DHO might surprise us yet...
because while I think it's reasonable to hope Rigol will keep the base android version updated...
It makes much more sense for companies to choose a stable version of Android that does what they need and stick with it forever.
(Are they even using a recent version of Android? I think somebody already mentioned it was an older one...)
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(Are they even using a recent version of Android?)
power up & about
it based on android 7.1.2 system.
Apparently not. :popcorn:
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(Are they even using a recent version of Android?)
power up & about
it based on android 7.1.2 system.
Apparently not. :popcorn:
When it comes to Android controlled products like this, I'll take an older tried-and-true OS version over the latest and greatest (which really means just waiting for the next bug report).
As long as the OS does what the product needs it to do, you aren't missing anything.
EDIT - Android 7.1.2 aka Nougat last patch was released Oct 4, 2019. That does seem to be a bit on the old side - I might have expected Android 8.1 at the least (current version is 13). No doubt software development takes some time and I doubt Rigol just started working on the DHO800 series this year. But as long as it works...
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Pricing has changed!
Looks like they rounded all the numbers to end in 99.
I don't remember what they were before but all the DHO900 prices have been rounded too.
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Pricing has changed!
Looks like they rounded all the numbers to end in 99.
I don't remember what they were before but all the DHO900 prices have been rounded too.
2 channel DHO802 dropped $30, others went up $10.
While 4 channels are nice to have (especially in today's digital world), a good 2 channel scope can be plenty good for many tasks. For $300 it looks like the DHO802 would be a great value.
I grew up on 2 channel scopes and now that I have a 4 channel DSO I've used 3+ channels perhaps 6 times (no denying that when you need them, 4 channels are indispensable). Although I have a dedicated LA I prefer using when it comes to serial protocol work or digital debugging.
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I can confirm same thing happend to me. As soon as the vendor.bin was replaced, the vertical offset came back. I ran both the self cal and the extended self cal (accessed by tapping on the about menu). The offset was still there. @hubertyoung's upload image has a firmware version of 1.00.
Is the version I uploaded 1.00? It may be confused with my own backup. I will confirm the file again.
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
Could you please post the image somewhere? Is there a way to write the TF card without taking the scope apart? Thanks a lot.
I haven't found anything that can be done without removing the TF card. But for fragile stickers, you can use an air gun to heat them at 100 degrees. Use a knife to remove without damage.
Thank you, would you be so kind to share the TF image file of the first batch 804?
the first batch 804, and 924 vendor.bin
https://mega.nz/file/06VDFaBI#3pmlujrkarmJ63_5Vh9VDz-VOt_nxBVmmBv0GXrSxZo
I'm very sorry, especially because I uploaded the wrong file due to my negligence. I sincerely apologize. I re-addressed and uploaded. I hope I can help you. @akkk44
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I re-addressed and uploaded. I hope I can help you. @akkk44
So... is there new download link? (to download again?). Many thanks.
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The good news is that I used the first batch of DHO804 img image packages to write to the TF card and successfully started the machine. Although there is an offset, it disappears after calibration. Then I replaced vendor.bin with 924 successfully. And there is no offset, even when calibrating again.
I tried to reproduce this method today: after flashing the tf card the offset does appear and can be calibrated, but then replacing the 924's vendor.bin the offset is still there!
May I ask which firmware version should I see after flashing a tf card?
Thanks a lot.
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I re-addressed and uploaded. I hope I can help you. @akkk44
So... is there new download link? (to download again?). Many thanks.
Yes, I have removed the wrong link and changed it to the correct address. When clicked you will see the file name is DHO804.7z and the size is 436.5 MB
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Thanks a lot, I will try it later, no worries whatsoever! :-+
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I seen there where more questions about the keyboard so I tested again and there are a few key that work.
The cursor key's select the top menus but hard to notice the selection so you can go from the bottom left start button to H, A, D, T and then all the apps that in that small window you can scroll trough them and the enter key works so you can select but after selection opens nothing else can be done the arrow keys still scroll trough the main menu.
None of the letter or number keys work in any menu you will expect.
And some of the function keys work like the volume control but controls media volume so not useful and the screenshot key works as usual in Andoid but not sure where those are saved as I do not have access from the scope menu to anything other than the so called C:\ drive that contains just the images and waveform you happen to save locally and then can copy those to an USB-memory.
So keyboard works is just not useful in the oscilloscope app. At most you can select the Stop/Run key and use Enter on Keyboard to toggle between Stop and Run.
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A little disappointing - you'd think that with Android the keyboard support would come more or less for free.
Even so that wouldn't be a deal killer for me.
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I tried the new image and it works as intended, Thanks a lot! :-+
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A little disappointing - you'd think that with Android the keyboard support would come more or less for free.
Even so that wouldn't be a deal killer for me.
Confirmed, keyboard is detected and a few keys are accepted, but you can't enter numbers into entry boxes for example. Basically it's not implemented.
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Thanks a lot, I will try it later, no worries whatsoever! :-+
Very much looking forward to the final result
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A little disappointing - you'd think that with Android the keyboard support would come more or less for free.
Even so that wouldn't be a deal killer for me.
Confirmed, keyboard is detected and a few keys are accepted, but you can't enter numbers into entry boxes for example. Basically it's not implemented.
Probably the UI toolkit they used.
I agree that "vertical" isn't the ideal angle for typing on touch screens. I use a stylus when I work with my touch laptop.
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then we need to put in a request for rigol to improve the keyboard support in their android app... and check it's not any better on the higher models (hdo1000 & hdo4000 series)
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then we need to put in a request for rigol to improve the keyboard support in their android app... and check it's not any better on the higher models (hdo1000 & hdo4000 series)
I'll bet a million Ohms that it's exactly the same.
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well there must be someone on this forum who has such an oscilloscope ....
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1 million waveforms per second = Keysight DSOX3024A
but how about: 1Mhz
Because my current scope is only 40khz effective bandwidth
:-DD
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Well, success!
Thanks to @hubertyoung's fw 1.14 image I was able to convert my DHO804 to DHO924 with no vertical offset issue. There was a vertical offset issue for some of the channels when I replace the vendor file but this time I performed the extended cal and the offset issue went away. None of the channels have any offset issues for all the voltage ranges.
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Having this on screen would really annoy me:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1880989;image)
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Well, success!
Thanks to @hubertyoung's fw 1.14 image I was able to convert my DHO804 to DHO924 with no vertical offset issue. There was a vertical offset issue for some of the channels when I replace the vendor file but this time I performed the extended cal and the offset issue went away. None of the channels have any offset issues for all the voltage ranges.
Did you got a new SD card to write the new image or you wrote over the existing one ?
What SW version was before as mine seems to be 1.0
Are there any other advantages to use the DHO924 firmware other than the increase bandwidth? (likely requiring different probes to take advantage off).
Not sure if there is extra sampling memory or just allows more in 4 channel mode.
Did you notice the strong plastic smell. I left mine outside since yesterday I need to check if there is any improvement.
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Well, success!
Thanks to @hubertyoung's fw 1.14 image I was able to convert my DHO804 to DHO924 with no vertical offset issue. There was a vertical offset issue for some of the channels when I replace the vendor file but this time I performed the extended cal and the offset issue went away. None of the channels have any offset issues for all the voltage ranges.
Can someone link to the image file please? Thanks.
Is it really just as easy as overwriting the SD card with a DHO900 image and then running the 10min calibration?
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Here is the DHO804 FW1.14 image (Thanks to @hubertyoung) with the DHO924 vendor file preloaded. Extract using 7zip then flash using HDD Raw Copy Tool (compressed image). If there is an vertical offset then use self cal or extended self cal.
https://mega.nz/file/UjBC3KRY#Kqv1BCHNQdPcUGMfR8IqbuUwHUsUhU4GpO1keTAXqf8
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Here is the DHO804 FW1.14 image (Thanks to @hubertyoung) with the DHO924 vendor file preloaded. Extract using 7zip then flash using HDD Raw Copy Tool (compressed image). If there is an vertical offset then use self cal or extended self cal.
https://mega.nz/file/UjBC3KRY#Kqv1BCHNQdPcUGMfR8IqbuUwHUsUhU4GpO1keTAXqf8
Hi,
- This is what I've done:
1. Run the Win32 Disk Imager
2. Backup the SD
3. Flash the SD with the image from the link
4. Run the claibartation (offset gone) - device identifies as DHO804
5. Connect the scope to ethernet
6 Run adb:
6.1 adb devices
6.2 adb connect 192.xxx.x.xxx:55555
6.3 "adb pull /rigol/data/vendor.bin"
6.4 backup the generated vendor bin file from the adb folder to a new location
6.5 copy in the adb folder the DHO924 vendor.bin file
6.6 "adb push vendor.bin /rigol/data"
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I still wonder if it's possible to do it without disassemble.
I'm gonna to keep the warranty.
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Here is the DHO804 FW1.14 image (Thanks to @hubertyoung) with the DHO924 vendor file preloaded. Extract using 7zip then flash using HDD Raw Copy Tool (compressed image). If there is an vertical offset then use self cal or extended self cal.
https://mega.nz/file/UjBC3KRY#Kqv1BCHNQdPcUGMfR8IqbuUwHUsUhU4GpO1keTAXqf8
My SHA512 of the above file "Rigol_DHO804_FW1_14_Image.7z"
af34ca4120cb59ef7be0b42d783191656f0a1f3cb18de36bb02c0a5c7b98cd7a991892064dd1df46ab97e5ee754344aba16927813836c826a8fbe37a14883aeb
and SHA512 of the above "vendor_dho924.zip"
ea9a4bc034524452e8c205b26efc9c7e814a669e551f9b5279d85c373592dba253a67ba3718a2eeadaae3ef90381d2610cb6c41ff27fe0b71fb5c74211fe68e3
Is that OK?
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I still wonder if it's possible to do it without disassemble.
I'm gonna to keep the warranty.
Cracking vulnerable stickers is much easier than using software. You guessed it right. This 924 bin file was the first batch I purchased. I posted the disassembly pictures at the beginning of the forum. I disassembled it losslessly through technical means. Unfortunately, I did not directly back up the 924 image file. Finally, I backed up the bin through the adb command. I chose to return it. I hope rigol doesn't see this comment.
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Here is the DHO804 FW1.14 image (Thanks to @hubertyoung) with the DHO924 vendor file preloaded. Extract using 7zip then flash using HDD Raw Copy Tool (compressed image). If there is an vertical offset then use self cal or extended self cal.
https://mega.nz/file/UjBC3KRY#Kqv1BCHNQdPcUGMfR8IqbuUwHUsUhU4GpO1keTAXqf8
My SHA512 of the above file "Rigol_DHO804_FW1_14_Image.7z"
af34ca4120cb59ef7be0b42d783191656f0a1f3cb18de36bb02c0a5c7b98cd7a991892064dd1df46ab97e5ee754344aba16927813836c826a8fbe37a14883aeb
and SHA512 of the above "vendor_dho924.zip"
ea9a4bc034524452e8c205b26efc9c7e814a669e551f9b5279d85c373592dba253a67ba3718a2eeadaae3ef90381d2610cb6c41ff27fe0b71fb5c74211fe68e3
Is that OK?
Thank you very much for improving the download content, which is very friendly to newcomers.
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Well, success!
Thanks to @hubertyoung's fw 1.14 image I was able to convert my DHO804 to DHO924 with no vertical offset issue. There was a vertical offset issue for some of the channels when I replace the vendor file but this time I performed the extended cal and the offset issue went away. None of the channels have any offset issues for all the voltage ranges.
Can someone link to the image file please? Thanks.
Is it really just as easy as overwriting the SD card with a DHO900 image and then running the 10min calibration?
I'm curious, if I directly use someone else's 924s image to directly overwrite the SD card, it should be cracked. It's just that I don't have a 924s oscilloscope. If anyone has it, please share it (the SN will be exposed).
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Was shooting the review video and this happened, WTF!
EDIT: It's NOT the DHO800 at fault! Follow-up video shot on the 2nd channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FlQnPsZCdE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FlQnPsZCdE)
David! Possibly on the first channel there is poor soldering of the printed circuit board with the BNC connector
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Was shooting the review video and this happened, WTF!
EDIT: It's NOT the DHO800 at fault! Follow-up video shot on the 2nd channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FlQnPsZCdE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FlQnPsZCdE)
David! Possibly on the first channel there is poor soldering of the printed circuit board with the BNC connector
Watch the follow-up video:
https://youtu.be/f58qoyCETAE?si=G-vc9BEDjrHDQfwD (https://youtu.be/f58qoyCETAE?si=G-vc9BEDjrHDQfwD)
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David! Possibly on the first channel there is poor soldering of the printed circuit board with the BNC connector
I've seen very flaky stuff like that before. I'd bet the BNC connectors or the cable crimping. You can't see the quality of work inside the adapters or the crimps. I've had to throw out junk and replace with new. I've found many cheap adapters that aren't made to exacting specs (I know shocking) and have very weird connection problems.
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Having this on screen would really annoy me:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1880989;image)
You should get used to this. I think all software currently has been cracked. As for parameter comparison, which requires help from others, volunteers will then need to compare the 924s to complete the hardware IC and restore it to the real 924s.
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You should get used to this. I think all software currently has been cracked. As for parameter comparison, which requires help from others, volunteers will then need to compare the 924s to complete the hardware IC and restore it to the real 924s.
I'm very sure it's possible to hack just the bandwidth without those extra features.
Right now what they're doing is copying the entire 924 firmware so they get those artifacts.
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We need a copy of as many different vendor.bin files as possible to compare them and see how individual features are enabled.
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You're teasing me... |O
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David! Possibly on the first channel there is poor soldering of the printed circuit board with the BNC connector
I've seen very flaky stuff like that before. I'd bet the BNC connectors or the cable crimping. You can't see the quality of work inside the adapters or the crimps. I've had to throw out junk and replace with new. I've found many cheap adapters that aren't made to exacting specs (I know shocking) and have very weird connection problems.
Same here, even just a few weeks ago!! Had what we thought were flaky BNC cables after all sorts of troubleshooting issues with an ongoing project. So we cut one cable in half to see which BNC end was the problem. After investigating turns out all the cables were fine, it was the Banana to BNC adapters and it was only flakey with certain cables. Anyway, all 8 of those BNC adapters and another 6 "T" adapters went in the trash, and will be replaced with new Pomona 1269 adapters.
Have no idea where these adapters came from, but the center socket on the defective adapters are different than the Pomona types, same for the "T" adapters, so we tossed them all (no patience for these shenanigans)!!
Best,
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David! Possibly on the first channel there is poor soldering of the printed circuit board with the BNC connector
I've seen very flaky stuff like that before. I'd bet the BNC connectors or the cable crimping. You can't see the quality of work inside the adapters or the crimps. I've had to throw out junk and replace with new. I've found many cheap adapters that aren't made to exacting specs (I know shocking) and have very weird connection problems.
Same here, even just a few weeks ago!! Had ......
Best,
Just please make sure that you use proper "widlarizer" before throwing them to the trash. I always do it. If I don't, there is always somebody thrifty who thinks the cable went there by accident and puts it back where the other cables are. |O
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Aliexpress is out of stock of dho814. Where i can get now? Cant wait to experience 12bit..
We're all waiting in line. Go to the back of the queue. :)
ali restocked dho8*4 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005962731116.html) ($389 and $459) still cheaper from the latest official pricing. please make the order quick so we can move to the front line... ;)
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Full review!
Still not sure if I'll bother to release a cut down summary version? But I didn't want to delay another few days so I had that ready at the same time.
Full time stamps available
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8)
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Thanks for the review, your conclusions are not really surprising.
Real 12 bit, touchscreen with higher resolution and hdmi output at this price point is indeed a killer, no question.
I had the DHO4204 for 3 weeks to test here, see your review - And it could also be from the 4204, it really only differs marginally.
In view of the almost 8x higher price, one wonders whether this can be taken as a compliment to be able to offer the same technology for a fraction of the price.
Or whether the owner of a DHO4000 feels somehow stupid for having spent so much money. 8)
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Or whether the owner of a DHO4000 feels somehow stupid for having spent so much money. 8)
Totally different market segments. And you get way better sample rate and memory, and maybe update rate etc.
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With regards to the lack of time and date, plugging it into the ethernet set the time and date, but the time here in Sydney is displayed as two hours behind on the screen shot.
So this seems liek a very deliberate cost cutting measure.
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Totally different market segments. And you get way better sample rate and memory, and maybe update rate etc.
For "only" 2500 bucks more you get a second ADC, a bigger screen and a different FPGA, thats all.
And more memory, but hardware-wise, it's not worth the money, much less the 2500 bucks surcharge.
Even more drastic in the sense of hardly different is the comparison DHO1000 to 4000.
The 1000 basically only lacks the second ADC and the extended inputs, otherwise everything is the same.
What struck me negatively in February with the DHO4204 was the very simple equipment of the FFT mode - is that now different, better ?
Also that "your" DHO 814 had a crash, stands out negatively, because I had with the DHO4204 also, a total of three times in three weeks.
At that time I had explained to me that the scope is still young.
But with the DHO814 and over half a year later...
And what about the display mode ?
Still only vector and no dot mode ?
It is the same UI/software as in the DHO4204, if there was progress in this regard in the last 7 months, this should be found again in the DHO814.
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I agree with the conclusion of the review. Is hard to justify anything else if what you need is a $400 entry level oscilloscope.
For me the two negatives are the smell (guess some plasticizes but it did not went away in the past few days) and the higher power consumption that hopefully will not create any problems over time.
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With regards to the lack of time and date, plugging it into the ethernet set the time and date, but the time here in Sydney is displayed as two hours behind on the screen shot.
So this seems liek a very deliberate cost cutting measure.
Maybe it is hard coded to the time zone of Rigol in Suzhou, China, which is 2 hours behind Sydney? Would be nice if they added an interface to set the local time zone.
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Does anyone know how fast streaming the sample buffer on the DHO8xx/9xx works? The Rigol MSO50xx has a bug that makes this happen rather slowly (it takes tens of seconds), even over gigabit ethernet. I'd like to do some power side-channel measurements with this scope, and such a bug would be a deal-breaker for me. The glscopeclient manual (https://www.antikernel.net/temp/glscopeclient-manual.pdf) mentions a ~2.5 waveforms/s transfer speed on Siglent 2000-series scopes, for comparison. (Of course, that's still slower than a ChipWhisperer, but those aren't useful for general stuff of course.)
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I have an idea. If I can dismantle the ADC and front-end chip from a DHO802 and transplant them to a DHO1072, then upgrade the firmware to DHO4804, would I be able to get an 800MHz/4Gsample oscilloscope for $1000? >:D >:D >:D
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With regards to the lack of time and date, plugging it into the ethernet set the time and date, but the time here in Sydney is displayed as two hours behind on the screen shot.
So this seems liek a very deliberate cost cutting measure.
Maybe it is hard coded to the time zone of Rigol in Suzhou, China, which is 2 hours behind Sydney? Would be nice if they added an interface to set the local time zone.
That's most likely it.
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Totally different market segments. And you get way better sample rate and memory, and maybe update rate etc.
For "only" 2500 bucks more you get a second ADC, a bigger screen and a different FPGA, thats all.
And more memory, but hardware-wise, it's not worth the money, much less the 2500 bucks surcharge.
Companies that would buy these don't think in the same way that individuals do.
It is the same UI/software as in the DHO4204, if there was progress in this regard in the last 7 months, this should be found again in the DHO814.
I would expect/hope that all UI and bug fixes get passed down to the smaller DHO800/900. But it does use a different FPGA.
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Should we start another thread specifically for DHO800/900 hacking, like exists for the 1000/4000?
The SD card thing is suffienctly different to the 1000/4000 that I think it needs it's own thread.
That way this thread could remain on general discussion
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Full review!
Still not sure if I'll bother to release a cut down summary version? But I didn't want to delay another few days so I had that ready at the same time.
Full time stamps available
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8)
I think this really settles it now, the DHO804 is the new de-facto "beginner" or budget scope, unless you have a specific requirement for more bandwidth or other functions like Bode plots. You get a lot of bang for buck. There really isn't anything else in this price point to even challenge it.
Also the probe results were really surprising. Wow. :o
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Should we start another thread specifically for DHO800/900 hacking, like exists for the 1000/4000?
The SD card thing is suffienctly different to the 1000/4000 that I think it needs it's own thread.
That way this thread could remain on general discussion
I think this would be best, all the other (dedicated fanboy) scopes have their own (dedicated fanboy) hacking threads! :-DD
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About the hole next to the USB-C connector: I found a picture of a unique power adapter shipped with the scope in an August review of DHO924S on a Chinese shopping site. The USB-C connector of the adapter output is wrapped around with a plastic piece featuring a bump that plugs into the hole.
Besides better mechanical strength, I think the main purpose for this is that the Rigol adapter directly outputs 12 volts on the connector without USB PD negotiation. This prevents you from frying your USB PD devices that expect proper negotiation.
Rigol seems to have stopped shipping these custom adapters after early September. The scopes, including mine, are now shipped with Lenovo or Liteon power adapters again.
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Should we start another thread specifically for DHO800/900 hacking, like exists for the 1000/4000?
The SD card thing is suffienctly different to the 1000/4000 that I think it needs it's own thread.
That way this thread could remain on general discussion
I think this would be best, all the other (dedicated fanboy) scopes have their own (dedicated fanboy) hacking threads! :-DD
I see you've done it. Cool, let's take the hacking there, because liek all previous scopes the hacking threads get referenced for YEARS TO COME, and this saves people continually asking in this discussion thread.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/)
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I wonder, where exactly can you get these for $299?
To get one from Batronix I would need to pay €436 ($480) for the DHO802 or €499 ($550) for the DHO804.
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I think this really settles it now, the DHO804 is the new de-facto "beginner" or budget scope
Yep. It destroys that Siglent 1104X-E and it's $100 less.
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I wonder, where exactly can you get these for $299?
To get one from Batronix I would need to pay €436 ($480) for the DHO802 or €499 ($550) for the DHO804.
$299 is a marketing BS..
Batronix ships free of charge within EU, afaik, therefore add say 40E, add 5% custom, add XX% sales margin, and add VAT 20% on top of all that..
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I wonder, where exactly can you get these for $299?
To get one from Batronix I would need to pay €436 ($480) for the DHO802 or €499 ($550) for the DHO804.
$299 is a marketing BS..
Batronix ships free of charge within EU, afaik, therefore add say 40E, add 5% custom, add XX% sales margin, and add VAT 20% on top of all that..
not BS, 299USD is the price in north america before taxes ( https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/ (https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/) )
in EU the price is 349Euros without VAT added ( https://rigolshop.eu/products/oscilloscope/dho800.html (https://rigolshop.eu/products/oscilloscope/dho800.html) ) so it's approx 50 euros more expensive in the EU.
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Yep. It destroys that Siglent 1104X-E and it's $100 less.
LOL it is a six years newer design. What exactly would you expect?
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LOL it is a six years newer design. What exactly would you expect?
for siglent to keep working on developing new scopes, new generations of product.
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I expect they or someone else will. The 1054Z is over eight years old alone.
Maybe Fnirsi will come out with a 12bit scope.
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or owon. but both finisri and owon are even cheaper brands than rigol :palm:
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or owon. but both finisri and owon are even cheaper brands than rigol :palm:
Just for an info... Owon already have both 12 and 14-bit oscilloscopes 5 ears ago, u can also check them on baltronix https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Owon-XDS.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Owon-XDS.html)
U can even find Dave's review for Owon's 14 bit dated for 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUiOk00K0U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUiOk00K0U)
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You're teasing me... |O
Here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5074867/#msg5074867).
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I think this really settles it now, the DHO804 is the new de-facto "beginner" or budget scope
Yep. It destroys that Siglent 1104X-E and it's $100 less.
It does not destroy it. It brings in affordable 12 bit that's all.
SDS1104X-E has many features that DHO800 does not have.
For instance, old DS1000Z has better layout of measurements than DHO800. How many measurements with stats can you have on screen at the same time on DHO800?
It depends what you do ..
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The price depends where you get it from, but looking at Batronix for instance, as for today, the Siglent SDS1104X-E (€460) is cheaper than the Rigol DHO804 (€475)
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/DSO.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/DSO.html)
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With regards to the lack of time and date, plugging it into the ethernet set the time and date, but the time here in Sydney is displayed as two hours behind on the screen shot.
So this seems liek a very deliberate cost cutting measure.
Somebody posted the boot code earlier and it sets the time zone to Shanghai.
I don't know if there's a setting for that or if you have to edit the file.
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SDS1104X-E has many features that DHO800 does not have.
There's the DHO900 if you want those extra things.
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For "only" 2500 bucks more you get a second ADC, a bigger screen and a different FPGA, thats all.
What about the auto-probe detection and power analysis functions?
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I have an idea. If I can dismantle the ADC and front-end chip from a DHO802 and transplant them to a DHO1072, then upgrade the firmware to DHO4804, would I be able to get an 800MHz/4Gsample oscilloscope for $1000? >:D >:D >:D
Yes!
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The price depends where you get it from, but looking at Batronix for instance, as for today, the Siglent SDS1104X-E (€460) is cheaper than the Rigol DHO804 (€475)
Big discount from Siglent.
(They're not going to sell any more of those if they don't do that...)
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SDS1104X-E has many features that DHO800 does not have.
There's the DHO900 if you want those extra things.
Yep, looks like the only option that Rigon doesn't provide for DHO900 is a WIFI module, but since you have a LAN onboard u can just use any generic Ethernet-2-WIFI adapter (iogear and tp-link produce not the worst ones), and you can get even more wireless option for the less money then Siglent provides.
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Having owned the owo all I can say is this, it an expensive door stop |O
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I have to say it's refreshing to see more Rigol mentioned of late on the TE board, such a refreshing change ;D
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I have an idea. If I can dismantle the ADC and front-end chip from a DHO802 and transplant them to a DHO1072, then upgrade the firmware to DHO4804, would I be able to get an 800MHz/4Gsample oscilloscope for $1000? >:D >:D >:D
Yes!
Did I miss somebody did this or what?
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BTW the Discover It credit card's October-December 5% cashback category includes Amazon (and during the first year of the card you get cashback match, so 10% off). I'm waiting until Oct to place the pre-order for this scope on Amazon.
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The price depends where you get it from, but looking at Batronix for instance, as for today, the Siglent SDS1104X-E (€460) is cheaper than the Rigol DHO804 (€475)
Big discount from Siglent.
(They're not going to sell any more of those if they don't do that...)
Siglent is making 10% discount until the end of the month, but at the regular price of €510 it's €35 more expensive than the Rigol (€475), not $100 more.
And I agree with you about Siglent keeping the current price if they want to sell one or two extra SDS1104X-E because no matter the price difference (not much below, even worst if above the Rigol price tag) I think the DHO804 is a "winner, winner chicken diner" as "someone" says. ;D
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Siglent is making 10% discount until the end of the month, but at the regular price of €510 it's €35 more expensive than the Rigol (€475), not $100 more.
I'm just quoting official prices:
$399 https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/ (https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/)
$499 https://siglentna.com/product/sds1104x-e-100-mhz/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sds1104x-e-100-mhz/)
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And I agree with you about Siglent keeping the current price if they want to sell one or two extra SDS1104X-E because no matter the price difference (not much below, even worst if above the Rigol price tag) I think the DHO804 is a "winner, winner chicken diner" as "someone" says. ;D
Better wait for some real hands-on experience from people who put the pedal to the metal. Showing waveforms is like 5% of what a modern day DSO should be able to do. On top of that, making actual use of 12 bit requires some new features as well like filtering and being able to zoom in so you can look at a signal at like 10uV/div. Knowing Rigol's history, there will be tons of bugs that takes years to fix. People get all exited about new equipment and then are super happy with every firmware release that fixes problems/bugs that should not have been there in the first place. Look at how many people have returned the Rigol MSO5000. So, yeah, I'm sceptical.
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Siglent is making 10% discount until the end of the month, but at the regular price of €510 it's €35 more expensive than the Rigol (€475), not $100 more.
I'm just quoting official prices:
$399 https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/ (https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/)
$499 https://siglentna.com/product/sds1104x-e-100-mhz/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sds1104x-e-100-mhz/)
As I said, depends were you get it
Lets make it official then, but in Europe
https://www.siglent.eu/product/1139249/siglent-sds1104x-e-100mhz-four-channel-oscilloscope (https://www.siglent.eu/product/1139249/siglent-sds1104x-e-100mhz-four-channel-oscilloscope)
https://rigolshop.eu/dho804.html (https://rigolshop.eu/dho804.html)
That's the same prices as Batronix.
This is why Dave says in the latest video he wouldn't discuss prices from other countries. I just brought an european perspective.
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making actual use of 12 bit requires some new features as well like filtering and being able to zoom in so you can look at a signal at like 10uV/div. Knowing Rigol's history, there will be tons of bugs that takes years to fix. People get all exited about new equipment and then are super happy with every firmware release that fixes problems/bugs that should not have been there in the first place. Look at how many people have returned the Rigol MSO5000. So, yeah, I'm sceptical.
Well I thought that some of these things were demo'd fairly concisely in Dave's 1 hour full review today. Including things like the 12-bits resolution (zooming) and some certain specific bugs he noticed during the course of his review.
But in addition Dave also demo'd pretty well a couple of bugs or not working, and alluded to perhaps getting a 900 series in later on in the future. To do some additional reviewing of that model too. (which would be great, to also then see those extra stuff it comes with and the higher bandwidth probes etc).
And yes - in terms of people not getting on with the MSO5000 I myself considered that scope, and finally was a hard pass on it. But just because the MSO5000 was not up to my own standards doesn't mean that this DHO800 isn't acceptable, when also considering the significantly lower price point.
However as for the unfixed bugs I do agree completely and that does indeed still remain the biggest concern for me overall. Especially when looking at how long the other DHO1000/DHO4000 series have already been out for.
The better question is what can we do, to increase the chances of them fixing known firmware bugs? And what are Rigol's future plans for those firmware teams and the software platform, these hardware platforms overall?
The thing that I would expect is for them to next focus on producing a version of HDO1000 series with LA and AWG. If the current 1000 is like the 800, then it needs a mixed signal version to complete the lineup, and that would also finally replace / retire the slightly older MSO5000 series.
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making actual use of 12 bit requires some new features as well like filtering and being able to zoom in so you can look at a signal at like 10uV/div. Knowing Rigol's history, there will be tons of bugs that takes years to fix. People get all exited about new equipment and then are super happy with every firmware release that fixes problems/bugs that should not have been there in the first place. Look at how many people have returned the Rigol MSO5000. So, yeah, I'm sceptical.
Well I thought that some of these things were demo'd fairly concisely in Dave's 1 hour full review today.
No. Not by a long shot. Testing a modern DSO thouroughly takes several days of work to go through an extensive list of tests including tests that are designed to seek out the limits. And even then there might be surprises lingering. Keep in mind that Rigol (and Siglent too; look at how they copy Lecroy's UI instead of making an innovative UI themselves) are relatively new to the DSO game and have not learned all the ins & outs to make the right design choices. At least Rigol seems to be trying to take a stab at creating an innovative UI. Probably inspired by R&S.
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Siglent is making 10% discount until the end of the month, but at the regular price of €510 it's €35 more expensive than the Rigol (€475), not $100 more.
I'm just quoting official prices:
$399 https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/ (https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/)
$499 https://siglentna.com/product/sds1104x-e-100-mhz/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sds1104x-e-100-mhz/)
But not official promotional pricing.
https://siglentna.com/news-article/back-to-school-with-unbeatable-savings/ (https://siglentna.com/news-article/back-to-school-with-unbeatable-savings/)
SDS1104X-E $ 374.25
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and Siglent too; look at how they copy Lecroy's UI instead of making an innovative UI themselves
The possibilities to design an intuitive and logical user interface are rather limited, so you will almost inevitably always have similarities to other UIs.
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This is why Dave says in the latest video he wouldn't discuss prices from other countries. I just brought an european perspective.
Yeah, it's just too complicated. And my videos are viewed in over a hundred countries. Just doing the top 5 or 10 countries makes it complicated enough.
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making actual use of 12 bit requires some new features as well like filtering and being able to zoom in so you can look at a signal at like 10uV/div. Knowing Rigol's history, there will be tons of bugs that takes years to fix. People get all exited about new equipment and then are super happy with every firmware release that fixes problems/bugs that should not have been there in the first place. Look at how many people have returned the Rigol MSO5000. So, yeah, I'm sceptical.
Well I thought that some of these things were demo'd fairly concisely in Dave's 1 hour full review today.
No. Not by a long shot. Testing a modern DSO thouroughly takes several days of work to go through an extensive list of tests including tests that are designed to seek out the limits. And even then there might be surprises lingering. Keep in mind that Rigol (and Siglent too; look at how they copy Lecroy's UI instead of making an innovative UI themselves) are relatively new to the DSO game and have not learned all the ins & outs to make the right design choices. At least Rigol seems to be trying to take a stab at creating an innovative UI. Probably inspired by R&S.
Yeah, I barely scratched the surface and I've been using it for a week. There are limitless possible edge cases. Sometimes I get lucky and find bugs, sometimes not. e.g. in the R&S MXO4 buy pure luck I found an obscure bug that turning the serial decode baud rate control too fast locked up the scope.
In the DS1054Z a viewer found a hardware VCO jitter fault when you expanded the delayed timebase by precise multiples of 5us. Every reviewer and user missed that including myself. BTW, that doesn't happen on the DHO800, I tested it.
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SDS1104X-E has many features that DHO800 does not have.
There's the DHO900 if you want those extra things.
Yes, as I mentioned it's not fair to compare the Siglent with the DHO800, the DHO900 is what you should compare it with.
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LOL it is a six years newer design. What exactly would you expect?
for siglent to keep working on developing new scopes, new generations of product.
They will of course, but unless they are working on ASIC's, it's unlikely they will be able to match Rigol's pricing for the foreseable future.
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SDS1104X-E has many features that DHO800 does not have.
There's the DHO900 if you want those extra things.
Yes, as I mentioned it's not fair to compare the Siglent with the DHO800, the DHO900 is what you should compare it with.
I agree.. And I was replying to his comparison.. But even with DHO900 there are still things like Bode Plots, fully functional segmented mode, history mode etc..
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Yes, as I mentioned it's not fair to compare the Siglent with the DHO800, the DHO900 is what you should compare it with.
And this although the DHO800 already "beats" and "destroys" the siglent... ;)
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They will of course, but unless they are working on ASIC's, it's unlikely they will be able to match Rigol's pricing for the foreseable future.
But it could also be that siglent will no longer jump over every little stick held out to them by other low-cost providers and will rather think about offering something of higher quality.
As of today, I can't imagine that they will release anything below the SDS1000X HD in terms of 12bit.
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LOL it is a six years newer design. What exactly would you expect?
for siglent to keep working on developing new scopes, new generations of product.
They will of course, but unless they are working on ASIC's, it's unlikely they will be able to match Rigol's pricing for the foreseable future.
In DHO series only ASIC is analog front end ASIC. Their ADC is not ASIC as much as local ADC source. That ADC can be replaced with any other ADC, and if you get good one at a good price, you can match them.
And Siglent already made it's own analog ASICs, a front end chip for 7000 and amp for differential high speed probe.
Truth is that Rigol had to develop it's own ADCs because they had problems in acquiring high performance chips because they burned the bridges with Keysight and that poisoned the well. Combine that with push in China to decouple and government incentives to do so and ADC development ensued...
Siglent is in much better situation that way and does not need it. If they do come to that point, they will react too. But truth is that ADC development is moving forward and some commercial designs might not be more expensive than in house low volume production.
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in house low volume production.
Low volume?? What are you smoking? These things will sell like fresh cookies, as fast as Rigol can make them. Even those who don't really need it, will buy in anyway - the price is THAT good. With exception of perhaps resident Siglent shills and "elitists" with old used crap which is as old as I am - and I suspect even a good portion of those will still secretly buy it.
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Yes, as I mentioned it's not fair to compare the Siglent with the DHO800, the DHO900 is what you should compare it with.
And this although the DHO800 already "beats" and "destroys" the siglent... ;)
Did nobody else watch Dave's video? No comments on the pulse response vs. the Siglent? How about the FFT speed?
These things are supposed to be the Siglent's differentiators vs. the "toy" oscilloscopes that Siglent owners love to turn up their noses at but this new Rigol is much better.
Imagine it was a Rigol showing distorted pulses like this? What would the Siglent boys say?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1882654;image)
Rigol DHO for comparison:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1882660;image)
PS: Looks like Siglent also gets the "fat traces" award now.
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the first batch 804, and 924 vendor.bin
I assume they're encrypted or something because they're completely different inside.
Vendor.bin is encrypted by XXTEA encryption algorithm with hex key 34CD12AB34CD12AB34CD12AB34CD12AB
Decrypted 2 vendor files attached.
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Did nobody else watch Dave's video? No comments on the pulse response vs. the Siglent? How about the FFT speed?
These things are supposed to be the Siglent's differentiators vs. the "toy" oscilloscopes that Siglent owners love to turn up their noses at but this new Rigol is much better.
PS: Looks like Siglent also gets the "fat traces" award now.
Same conditions too, the Leo Bodnar pulse gen connected direct to the scope 1M input.
And yes, the Rigol traces are thinner for the same bandwidth and sample rate. I'd love to have a full screen waveform option to make use of the resolution available. And if they could map it to the full HD HDMI output that would be mind blowing.
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As of today, I can't imagine that they will release anything below the SDS1000X HD in terms of 12bit.
I had forgotten about that. Was back in April and still not released?
Maybe they might even have a re-think now?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-hd-coming/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-hd-coming/)
It has the advantage of a bigger screen, but it's the same resolution as the DHO800, and looses with NO HMDI output. nd presumably no VESA mount?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-hd-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1751303;image)
(https://www.siglent.com/u_file/product/23_03_22/front%20(1).png)
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They will of course, but unless they are working on ASIC's, it's unlikely they will be able to match Rigol's pricing for the foreseable future.
But it could also be that siglent will no longer jump over every little stick held out to them by other low-cost providers and will rather think about offering something of higher quality.
As of today, I can't imagine that they will release anything below the SDS1000X HD in terms of 12bit.
Considering the time and effort to develop a custom ASIC, and looking at the products released by Siglent over the last two years (all mid to high end equipment) you're probably on the money here. I have a feeling the SDS1000 HD will probably start around $1000 USD minimum and would be the lowest quality 12-bit they will offer. They're different markets at the end of the day.
Sometimes it's hard to look at equipment like the DHO800/900 on a forum with dedicated enthusiasts that will always look at niche functions and edge cases, but the truth of the matter is when you have a product under $1000 USD, you're targeting an audience that probably may not really know what they want in a scope, or don't really care about " scope X has some niche function" if they're losing out on resolution / newer hardware and have to spend a few hundred more.
So end of the day a newbie comes along and posts the inevitable forum post of "I want a good first scope what can you recommend :DDDDD" with no other details, I will probably just say to get the DHO804.
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As of today, I can't imagine that they will release anything below the SDS1000X HD in terms of 12bit.
I had forgotten about that. Was back in April and still not released?
Maybe they might even have a re-think now?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-hd-coming/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-hd-coming/)
It has the advantage of a bigger screen, but it's the same resolution as the DHO800, and looses with NO HMDI output. nd presumably no VESA mount?
Pure speculation but I doubt they'd rethink at this point. The SDS1000x-HD has more sample depth, waveform updates, potentially greater bandwidth, and if I remember a crazy amount of math functions. For me when I first saw the SDS1000X HD it screamed "this is the 12-bit you buy if you actually need 12-bit but willing to sacrifice other areas and are "somewhat" on a budget". For example, the SDS2104X HD would have been the perfect scope for me but I can't afford the price tag attached to it, and was waiting for the SDS1104X HD
But I guess you can now argue the DHO800/900 potentially covers this too now. It's a really hard decision.
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These things are supposed to be the Siglent's differentiators vs. the "toy" oscilloscopes that Siglent owners love to turn up their noses at but this new Rigol is much better.
Imagine it was a Rigol showing distorted pulses like this? What would the Siglent boys say?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1882654;image)
Rigol DHO for comparison:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1882660;image)
PS: Looks like Siglent also gets the "fat traces" award now.
You think, well yes this is about the level of all we can expect from a mouldy brain.
Dave says this:
The Leo Bodnar pulse gen connected direct to the scope 1M input.
And yes, the Rigol traces are thinner for the same bandwidth and sample rate.
Genius, this is what 12 bit DSO's provide however when they fail to reconstruct waveforms fully one needs wonder what's really going on.
Screenshots for study attached from 8 and 12 bit DSO's of a single 10 MHz pulse from a 29ps RT Bodnar pulser accurately reconstructing waveforms instead of hiding potentially valuable information.
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Screenshots for study attached from 8 and 12 bit DSO's of a single 10 MHz pulse from a 29ps RT Bodnar pulser accurately reconstructing waveforms instead of hiding potentially valuable information.
You're telling us the top of this pulse isn't supposed to be horizontal? That the upward slope shown here is correct?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1882699;image)
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So end of the day a newbie comes along and posts the inevitable forum post of "I want a good first scope what can you recommend :DDDDD" with no other details, I will probably just say to get the DHO804.
Yep, 100%. It's now the only correct answer to the newbie question.
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Personally I'm missing accuracy tests. Not all 12-bit scopes are the same and accuracy in measurements (and offset) is important. This is usually what makes this huge price differences in ADCs!
The DHO800 has 1% accuracy, where the SDS2000 HD has 0.5% for example. Offset error is also about double.
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Personally I'm missing accuracy tests. Not all 12-bit scopes are the same and accuracy in measurements (and offset) is important. This is usually what makes this huge price differences in ADCs!
The DHO800 has 1% accuracy, where the SDS2000 HD has 0.5% for example. Offset error is also about double.
The SDS2000 HD is also ~5x the price :-//
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Personally I'm missing accuracy tests. Not all 12-bit scopes are the same and accuracy in measurements (and offset) is important. This is usually what makes this huge price differences in ADCs!
The DHO800 has 1% accuracy, where the SDS2000 HD has 0.5% for example. Offset error is also about double.
The SDS2000 HD is also ~5x the price :-//
More than 8x the price
https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000x-hd-digital-storage-oscilloscope/
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Personally I'm missing accuracy tests. Not all 12-bit scopes are the same and accuracy in measurements (and offset) is important. This is usually what makes this huge price differences in ADCs!
The DHO800 has 1% accuracy, where the SDS2000 HD has 0.5% for example. Offset error is also about double.
The SDS2000 HD is also ~5x the price :-//
Yes, and as I mentioned this is part of the price differences in ADCs, and a price I'm willing to pay because I'm interested in overall accuracy..
Just don't get into the false idea that all 12 bit scopes are the same and Rigol has somehow beat everyone here.
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The offset alone is the smaller problem - if at all one would care about the offset drift.
For the accuracy it is hard to compare just the specs. This are not hard numbers that one can measure on a few units, especially not when they come out new. The numbers are more like rough estimates with possibly company and engenier related bias. For the scale factor one anyway often has 1:10 probe and the probe alone can have more uncertainty.
What may matter and could be measured would be the linearity: with a good sine wave look at the harmincs in the FFT. Even this may need a few instruments for averaging individual variation.
Good linearity may be relevant for using the 12 bit scope as a low cost spectrum analyser substitute. Here the extra bits at the ADC really help.
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in house low volume production.
Low volume?? What are you smoking? These things will sell like fresh cookies, as fast as Rigol can make them. Even those who don't really need it, will buy in anyway - the price is THAT good. With exception of perhaps resident Siglent shills and "elitists" with old used crap which is as old as I am - and I suspect even a good portion of those will still secretly buy it.
They ain't gonna make the in same volume in same volume as Analog devices or TI... Or a Chinese source that sells on open market. It is only for internal use..... Low volume in comparison... I didn't mean they'll make 100 pieces at that's it..
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What we should see in practice then?
For example with by 50ohm shorted BNC channel input at 1mV range (at a specific sample rate and BW).
What AC.RMS (or standard deviation or peak-peak) is to expect with 8bit and 12bit scopes?
Or what 12bit/8bit ratio of the noise should we see?
So far - based on the videos - I do not see the ratio to be really 12bit/8bit..
PS: for example my borrowed 20y old DS1062CA shows 440uVpp noise terminated with 50ohm (1mV/div range, BWlimit ON, 100ms/div timebase)..
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The offset alone is the smaller problem - if at all one would care about the offset drift.
For the accuracy it is hard to compare just the specs. This are not hard numbers that one can measure on a few units, especially not when they come out new. The numbers are more like rough estimates with possibly company and engenier related bias. For the scale factor one anyway often has 1:10 probe and the probe alone can have more uncertainty.
What may matter and could be measured would be the linearity: with a good sine wave look at the harmincs in the FFT. Even this may need a few instruments for averaging individual variation.
Good linearity may be relevant for using the 12 bit scope as a low cost spectrum analyser substitute. Here the extra bits at the ADC really help.
You are more than correct: linearity (and related distortions) are most important.
Also you are more than correct it is complicated.
That being said, scopes have no quick ZERO button to instantly remove 0 errors for measurement. So inaccuracy is a problem if you want to use it to do DC measurements. For long term drift (as equipment ages) you have self cal.
As for probes, there comes in fractional probe factor. Siglent supports it on touchscreen scopes, others too. So you can set your probe to be 10.03X if you calibrate it to be so and sneak up to very high gain accuracy.
Unlike meters, scopes have more complicated front end layouts with VGAs that makes accurate gain harder. More moving parts, so to speak and more permutations...
Logic is not exactly the same as for a meter.
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But in addition Dave also demo'd pretty well a couple of bugs or not working, [...]
However as for the unfixed bugs I do agree completely and that does indeed still remain the biggest concern for me overall. Especially when looking at how long the other DHO1000/DHO4000 series have already been out for.
Which bugs in the DHO800/1000/4000 are you mostly concerned about? I might have missed something since I fast-forwarded through a few sections of the review video. The issues I saw were more along the lines of "wouldn't it be nice...", e.g. no possibility to use more of the vertical screen real estate for trace display. Plus the crash of the UI, of course, although at least with graceful recovery.
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What we should see in practice then?
For example with by 50ohm shorted BNC channel input at 1mV range (at a specific sample rate and BW).
What AC.RMS (or standard deviation or peak-peak) is to expect with 8bit and 12bit scopes?
Or what 12bit/8bit ratio of the noise should we see?
So far - based on the videos - I do not see the ratio to be really 12bit/8bit..
PS: for example my borrowed 20y old DS1062CA shows 440uVpp noise terminated with 50ohm (1mV/div range, BWlimit ON, 100ms/div timebase)..
The noise test with maxium gain is mainly looking at the amplifier noise. Chances are the ADC noise is relatively unimportant in this case.
To look at the ADC part and compare different ADC one should look at a range like 20 mV/div or maybe 100 mV/div, just before the relay kicks in the extra input divider. I would not expect the full extra 4 bits or a ratio of 16 - that may happen to some of the early more noisy DSOs. I would definitely hope for better than 8 bit ENOB. There is still the question with the sampling rate and it may depend.
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What we should see in practice then?
For example with by 50ohm shorted BNC channel input at 1mV range (at a specific sample rate and BW).
What AC.RMS (or standard deviation or peak-peak) is to expect with 8bit and 12bit scopes?
Or what 12bit/8bit ratio of the noise should we see?
So far - based on the videos - I do not see the ratio to be really 12bit/8bit..
PS: for example my borrowed 20y old DS1062CA shows 440uVpp noise terminated with 50ohm (1mV range, BWlimit ON, 100ms/div)..
This is something that was explained in 12 bit Siglent postings but somehow gets forgotten when discussed here..
Firstly, there is input referred noise of input amplifiers (analog front end). Analog noise is connected to BW. More BW more noise.
Then there is ADC noise that is also partly analog noise (input buffers) and quantization noise (noise introduced while digitizing). Quantization noise will be related to ENOB (effective number of bits).
You can have 8 Bit scope with lover noise than 12 bit scope, at low ranges, for instance if you pair very low noise front to very high ENOB (for a 8 bit) ADC compared to high noise front end connected to 12 bit ADC with not so stellar ENOB.
ENOB is always less than architectural resolution. Here it is that good 8 bitters will have 7.5 Bit ENOB, but good 12 bitters will have 10-10.5 bits.
And here comes the interesting part. Noise is about lover part of signal. Hence term of noise floor. Basically, noise floor is a measure what smallest signal we can measure reliably at current RANGE of vertical sensitivity.
At large V/div, where analog front end contributes little noise, noise will be dominated by quantization noise of ADC and basically equal to it's ENOB. As you go more sensitive, front end will contribute more to noise, to the point of it being dominant source of noise...
At 1mV/div (or less) there won't be 4X noise floor difference between 8 and 12 Bit that ADC ENOB difference would suggest.
So for measuring very low signals, preamp quality comes first.
What 12 bit gives you is not ultimate low noise at low end (that is function of preamp) but dynamic range (that is how ADC are calling it anyways). If for instance , in FFT, 8 bit scope can measure 1mv signal clearly at 100mV/div, a 12 bit scope can do the same at say 400mV/div.
That means that at the same time, on same screen 8 bit scope can show both 1 mV and 390mV peak, but a 12 bit one will be able to show 1mV and 1,58V signal at the same time. But that is FFT, frequency domain look.
In time domain, waveform display standard scope mode with 12 bitter (compared to good low noise 8 bitter) you will see same trace at high V/div, a nicer thinner trace in some intermediate ranges and increasingly same thickness of traces as you go to sensitive ranges (where preamps noise dominates), provided similar preamps.
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So, in order to characterize the 8bit vs. 12bit we have to have some testing procedure, taking into the account the above. Hopefully the designers tried to lower the noise of the AFE when applying their new 12bit ADCs.
We need perhaps to do FFT (also mind the various FFT params, like number of points, windowing function, sample rate, etc) at the minimum voltage range (like the 1mV/div) with say 100uVpp signal (like sine 100uVpp with a frequency = samplerate/8), and then at higher range, like 100mV/div (or higher) again with 100uVpp signal, all done at 50ohm. And use the ratio of the noise floors and the ratio of signals amplitudes for scope A vs. scope B as a "measure". Or something of that kind..
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well yes, this is what i was alluding to in my prior (but too-brief) comment. that dave's demonstration of fft mode shows how it generally performs in that mode compared to the other scopes on his table.
and that fft (for dsos) is a bit of a shortcut to stress test the general or total / combined noise performance of a scope. without examining too deeply, that it is easy domain to throw a variety of signals, both high and low ranges. and see how well it performs.
i don't presume to think it's going to replace a more thorough and comprehensive testing. but it does give a valuable insight into the combined performance of multiple stages put together. and help to point to potential signs of weakness (to then mull over / think about, and consider reasons for why).
again it's not meant to be a replacement for a comprehensive testing approach, of each individual pieces and functions.
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Did nobody else watch Dave's video? No comments on the pulse response vs. the Siglent? How about the FFT speed?
These things are supposed to be the Siglent's differentiators vs. the "toy" oscilloscopes that Siglent owners love to turn up their noses at but this new Rigol is much better.
PS: Looks like Siglent also gets the "fat traces" award now.
Same conditions too, the Leo Bodnar pulse gen connected direct to the scope 1M input.
And yes, the Rigol traces are thinner for the same bandwidth and sample rate. I'd love to have a full screen waveform option to make use of the resolution available. And if they could map it to the full HD HDMI output that would be mind blowing.
Trace thickness differences can be due to different display resolution and rendering. Some DSOs fatten the traces up deliberately so they are visible on the display.
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Personally I'm missing accuracy tests. Not all 12-bit scopes are the same and accuracy in measurements (and offset) is important. This is usually what makes this huge price differences in ADCs!
The DHO800 has 1% accuracy, where the SDS2000 HD has 0.5% for example. Offset error is also about double.
The SDS2000 HD is also ~5x the price :-//
Yes, and as I mentioned this is part of the price differences in ADCs, and a price I'm willing to pay because I'm interested in overall accuracy..
Just don't get into the false idea that all 12 bit scopes are the same and Rigol has somehow beat everyone here.
Agreed. What would be interesting, is a comparison between ENOB versus frequency for various 12bit scopes. For 12 bit resolution at high samplerates you need an extremely low jitter clock. I strongly doubt any of the 12 bit scopes reaches 12 bit ENOB at sample rates over a couple of hundred MHz.
Another factor that comes into play is the trigger jitter. If you want to look at small signals and clean them up a little bit, then averaging will depend heavily on having a low trigger jitter.
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That means that at the same time, on same screen 8 bit scope can show both 1 mV and 390mV peak, but a 12 bit one will be able to show 1mV and 1,58V signal at the same time. But that is FFT, frequency domain look.
Not necessarily FFT only. That would defeat the purpose of having 12 bits in the first place. IMHO 12 bit should be usefull to get more detail from a signal. Recently I did some measurements using a 10m Ohm current shunt using my 12 bit Yokogawa scope.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1882864;image)
Vertical zoom is 100x and probe attenuation factor is set to 100. So 1mV = 1mA. The effective sensitivity is 50uV/div. So I'm measuring an 8mA pp signal using a 10milli-Ohm shunt here.
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That means that at the same time, on same screen 8 bit scope can show both 1 mV and 390mV peak, but a 12 bit one will be able to show 1mV and 1,58V signal at the same time. But that is FFT, frequency domain look.
Not necessarily FFT only. That would defeat the purpose of having 12 bits in the first place. IMHO 12 bit should be usefull to get more detail from a signal. Recently I did some measurements using a 10m Ohm current shunt using my 12 bit Yokogawa scope.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1882864;image)
Vertical zoom is 100x and probe attenuation factor is set to 100 so the effective sensitivity is 50uV/div.
I was simplifying for like to like comparison.
How much can you expand signal captured and stopped will be, like I said, connected to what is ENOB at that particular range.
Most gain, as also I pointed out numerous times before, will be in situations where we are looking at signal that had large dynamic range (large difference between highest peaks and smallest details we would like to see) and at ranges where ENOB of the scope is maximized.
Situations where we want to look at small signal riding on top of a DC or slower moving other signal, for instance.
I would again remind that I disagree with usage of word "zoom" or "zoom in" or "zoom out" for a practice where you change vertical sensitivity or time base while looking at signal in STOP mode.
It confuses the heck out of people because they confuse it with two other uses of word zoom:
- dedicated Zoom view mode (most scopes have that in different implementations).
- display mode where in main display window you set it to show only part of vertical range that is actually captured. Some R&S scopes support that.
I would use phrase "magnify" for that practice, or something in that venue.. I'm not insisting on it but just pointing out history of confusion with this practice..
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I think you'll have a hard time to find consensus amongst the oscilloscope manufacturers. For example: the image I posted is a zoom window while Yokogawa is using both 'zoom' and 'magnification' for looking at a signal in more detail. And there are more terms which are not consistent between various oscilloscope manufacturers so in the end you'll need to refer to the manual.
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BTW, concerning the topic, only the ADC (RT1642IQ) is registered with the China national IP administration. The two other chips of the "chipset" are not registered (or registered not on Rigol's account).
https://www.cnipa.gov.cn/art/2023/7/14/art_164_186285.html?xxgkhide=1 (https://www.cnipa.gov.cn/art/2023/7/14/art_164_186285.html?xxgkhide=1)
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Agreed. What would be interesting, is a comparison between ENOB versus frequency for various 12bit scopes. For 12 bit resolution at high samplerates you need an extremely low jitter clock. I strongly doubt any of the 12 bit scopes reaches 12 bit ENOB at sample rates over a couple of hundred MHz.
Siglent and lecroy give values between 8.4 and 8.7, depending on the bandwidth.
Rigol simply writes "greater than eight"... ;)
While user "Wolfgang" had determined the ENOBs for the Rigol DHO4000 and R&S MX04 on his website, at 10Mhz:
https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/to-enob-or-not-to-enob/
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In DHO series only ASIC is analog front end ASIC. Their ADC is not ASIC as much as local ADC source. That ADC can be replaced with any other ADC, and if you get good one at a good price, you can match them.
Actually believe the Rigol 12 bit ADC is more of an Application Specific ADC than not. Reasoning is that Analog Devices and TI ADC design targets a much broader range of applications than just the DSO, whereas Rigol may have reduced the initial design requirements, efforts, and cost with just the DSO product target. This allows relaxed specifications for the ADC in many areas and thus reduces the initial design task and costs. Of course we don't know for sure, and don't generally like to speculate, but do have some background here and some "hints". Would be very interesting to find the actual "wafer yield", but that's usually a highly regarded parameter and not going to be disclosed by Rigol or the IC fab.
Rigol still needs to utilize a boatload of these ADCs to recover the NRE, and likely the DSOs under discussion are the recipients of the lower grade ADCs from the chip testing fallout, where the higher grade ADC chips go the higher class DSOs.
Sure one could replace the Rigol ADC with a TI or AD 12 bit ADC and be done, but this would have a higher Recurring Cost and not achieve this attractive price point IMO.
ENOB, Linearity and so on will revel just how good these ADCs are. However, without a better FFT as R&S and Siglent have implemented, some of this might be difficult to properly access.
All this might not matter to the audience these lower cost DSOs are targeting and just having a 12 bit ADC with low noise front end, good screen resolution, and HDMI is enough. Being able to "see" finer waveform details and a nice Hi-Rez display may be all that matters to many whether they are "real" or accurate isn't important!!
A good set of tests would be in order. The classic 2-Tone IMD and another interesting test would be to utilize the math functions to evaluate precision waveforms and view the numerical results. Things like waveform average, RMS(SD), DC Levels and so on might hint at just how good the input channels behave over the ranges. We did such when we got our 1st SDS2000X+, and were pleasantly surprised how well it performed.
Anyway, fun discussions going on.
Best,
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..Vertical zoom is 100x and probe attenuation factor is set to 100. So 1mV = 1mA. The effective sensitivity is 50uV/div. So I'm measuring an 8mA pp signal using a 10milli-Ohm shunt here.
While looking at your picture - the p-p noise on top of your signal is something like 5uVpp. That is ~1uVrms.. With a typical BW say 20MHz it is something hard to believe..
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..ENOB, Linearity and so on will revel just how good these ADCs are. However, without a better FFT as R&S and Siglent have implemented, some of this might be difficult to properly access..
You may export the data in a csv afaik, and do the FFT in the PC..
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..Vertical zoom is 100x and probe attenuation factor is set to 100. So 1mV = 1mA. The effective sensitivity is 50uV/div. So I'm measuring an 8mA pp signal using a 10milli-Ohm shunt here.
While looking at your picture - the p-p noise on top of your signal is something like 5uVpp. That is ~1uVrms.. With a typical BW say 20MHz it is something hard to believe..
For that particular picture I had averaging enabled but the bandwidth is also limited to several tens of kHz. The Yokogawa oscilloscope I used for this measurement is specifically targetted at relatively low frequency & high resolution measurements. I just wanted to highlight that having '12 bit' on the badge is only part of the story.
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I think it's a waste of time and mental resources to debate which brand is best, because the truth is that there is no perfect equipment. One may do better than the other at a certain task, or have more functionality. I'm not a fan of any, I want equipment that is as functional as possible when I need to use it in a certain area. I own several brands and in fact I never used just one, because as I said before, if the X oscilloscope performs the current task better, that's the one I choose. Brands are complements to each other.
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Some DSOs fatten the traces up deliberately so they are visible on the display.
Which ones?
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Knowing Rigol's history, there will be tons of bugs that takes years to fix. People get all exited about new equipment and then are super happy with every firmware release that fixes problems/bugs that should not have been there in the first place. ... I'm sceptical.
When do you estimate Siglent will get around to fixing their FFT? Dave saw some serious problems with it in his video.
See video at 32:17: https://youtu.be/S8jrpCoZyx8?t=1937
(and look at how slow the Siglent FFT is by comparison... :o )
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..ENOB, Linearity and so on will revel just how good these ADCs are. However, without a better FFT as R&S and Siglent have implemented, some of this might be difficult to properly access..
You may export the data in a csv afaik, and do the FFT in the PC..
Yeah, but nicer to just have the results displayed directly on the DSO. We tend to prefer instruments that don't require a PC for use, and have a nice 16 bit Pico 4262 that rarely gets used because of such.
Best,
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Knowing Rigol's history, there will be tons of bugs that takes years to fix. People get all exited about new equipment and then are super happy with every firmware release that fixes problems/bugs that should not have been there in the first place. ... I'm sceptical.
When do you estimate Siglent will get around to fixing their FFT?
To be honest: I don't care. I don't see myself buying anything from Siglent again.
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Yeah, but nicer to just have the results displayed directly on the DSO. We tend to prefer instruments that don't require a PC for use, and have a nice 16 bit Pico 4262 that rarely gets used because of such.
That's the famous Rigol FFT. But the video shows that the noise grass is somewhere between -100 and -110 dB, which is not bad, I think. Better than with a 8-bit scope. BTW if one is going to come up with the numbers that quantitively characterizes the analog part of the scope, it'll make sense to upload the points to PC for more close inspection. Otherwise it's difficult to objectively compare it with that of the competitors.
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Knowing Rigol's history, there will be tons of bugs that takes years to fix. People get all exited about new equipment and then are super happy with every firmware release that fixes problems/bugs that should not have been there in the first place. ... I'm sceptical.
When do you estimate Siglent will get around to fixing their FFT? Dave saw some serious problems with it in his video.
See video at 32:17: https://youtu.be/S8jrpCoZyx8?t=1937
(and look at how slow the Siglent FFT is by comparison... :o )
Are you really that thick or you are paid to spew bullshit?
What is wrong with that FFT? It is slower because device has slower CPU. That is not a bug.
A 8 bit converter dynamic range is bug??
Muppet.
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When do you estimate Siglent will get around to fixing their FFT? Dave saw some serious problems with it in his video.
See video at 32:17: https://youtu.be/S8jrpCoZyx8?t=1937 (https://youtu.be/S8jrpCoZyx8?t=1937)
Are you really that thick or you are paid to spew bullshit?
What is wrong with that FFT?
Muppet.
One of these FFTs isn't like the others...can you see which one?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1883218;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1883212;image)
Screenshots from Dave's video at the time I linked to above.
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In DHO series only ASIC is analog front end ASIC. Their ADC is not ASIC as much as local ADC source. That ADC can be replaced with any other ADC, and if you get good one at a good price, you can match them.
Actually believe the Rigol 12 bit ADC is more of an Application Specific ADC than not. Reasoning is that Analog Devices and TI ADC design targets a much broader range of applications than just the DSO, whereas Rigol may have reduced the initial design requirements, efforts, and cost with just the DSO product target. This allows relaxed specifications for the ADC in many areas and thus reduces the initial design task and costs. Of course we don't know for sure, and don't generally like to speculate, but do have some background here and some "hints". Would be very interesting to find the actual "wafer yield", but that's usually a highly regarded parameter and not going to be disclosed by Rigol or the IC fab.
Rigol still needs to utilize a boatload of these ADCs to recover the NRE, and likely the DSOs under discussion are the recipients of the lower grade ADCs from the chip testing fallout, where the higher grade ADC chips go the higher class DSOs.
Sure one could replace the Rigol ADC with a TI or AD 12 bit ADC and be done, but this would have a higher Recurring Cost and not achieve this attractive price point IMO.
ENOB, Linearity and so on will revel just how good these ADCs are. However, without a better FFT as R&S and Siglent have implemented, some of this might be difficult to properly access.
All this might not matter to the audience these lower cost DSOs are targeting and just having a 12 bit ADC with low noise front end, good screen resolution, and HDMI is enough. Being able to "see" finer waveform details and a nice Hi-Rez display may be all that matters to many whether they are "real" or accurate isn't important!!
A good set of tests would be in order. The classic 2-Tone IMD and another interesting test would be to utilize the math functions to evaluate precision waveforms and view the numerical results. Things like waveform average, RMS(SD), DC Levels and so on might hint at just how good the input channels behave over the ranges. We did such when we got our 1st SDS2000X+, and were pleasantly surprised how well it performed.
Anyway, fun discussions going on.
Best,
Thank you for summarizing it much better than what I ever could.
As for my "not really ASIC" comment for Rigol ADC I thank Asmi and you for education. I'm not in ASIC business so my use of terminology will not be correct. What I wanted to say is that while Rigol's ADC obviously is ASIC as a type of product because it is custom made IC that was made by company for their specific use, ASICs are usually made for a very specific function: a switching matrix for a high speed interconnect, a complete integrated sound engine for a synthesizer, or something like that.
In this case, Rigol made "just another ADC", a chip for which there is alternative. Of course that assessment is based on my limited knowledge from what Rigol has published. Maybe they did combine ADC and some sort of DSP to linearize response or something like that.. In which case it would be really single use application specific chip for scopes that could not be replaced easily. And would allow them to have simpler BOM and maybe make significant saving in FPGA resources and such...
But from what I see they still have same architecture as before with ADC-FPGA-App processor. So it seems any saving would be just in price of chip. I personally think it is more about control of sourcing the chip than good price (which is just a bonus).
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One of these FFTs isn't like the others...can you see which one?
Yeah, I have no idea what Dave did there... It is obvious that scopes are not set the same... Which is not surprise because Rigol decided to implement "FFT dummy mode" transformation with no control of FFT parameters. I keep repeating that you need to either implement full RT Spectrum analyser (that does ALL of the necessary transformations from FFT to spectrum display) or a proper FFT mode where you have control over mathematical FFT parameters.
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Rigol still needs to utilize a boatload of these ADCs to recover the NRE
I don't think that's going to be a problem. Rigol will have the hobby market to itself for the next couple of years at least and this thing is a big enough advance to make many owners upgrade their existing 'scope (eg. me)
and likely the DSOs under discussion are the recipients of the lower grade ADCs from the chip testing fallout, where the higher grade ADC chips go the higher class DSOs.
That doesn't follow at all.
a) You're assuming their chip yield is terrible when it's probably close to 100% and the ones that fail will likely be complete failures.
b) The "DSOs under discussion" will be the biggest sellers by a huge margin.
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Yeah, I have no idea what Dave did there... It is obvious that scopes are not set the same... Which is not surprise because Rigol decided to implement "FFT dummy mode" transformation with no control of FFT parameters.
Uhuh, but there's a third 'scope there which does allow you to control all the parameters ... and it's agreeing with the Rigol.
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..Yeah, but nicer to just have the results displayed directly on the DSO. ..
Sure, I've been talking the more detailed measurement only (to bypass the internal FFT such you get an unbiased result), not the actual FFT usage inside the DSO..
PS: the first step is to understand how the ADC (with the AFE) works, for that we need the data processed outside the DSO. Then the next step is to mess with the actual FFT implementation inside the DSOs - as its implementation depends on many params..
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Yeah, I have no idea what Dave did there... It is obvious that scopes are not set the same... Which is not surprise because Rigol decided to implement "FFT dummy mode" transformation with no control of FFT parameters.
Uhuh, but there's a third 'scope there which does allow you to control all the parameters ... and it's agreeing with the Rigol.
So what you think which scope was not set up the same as the others ??
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yes, the siglentis fungicitus. very amusing :)
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Yeah, I have no idea what Dave did there... It is obvious that scopes are not set the same... Which is not surprise because Rigol decided to implement "FFT dummy mode" transformation with no control of FFT parameters. I keep repeating that you need to either implement full RT Spectrum analyser (that does ALL of the necessary transformations from FFT to spectrum display) or a proper FFT mode where you have control over mathematical FFT parameters.
Hmm. That sounds quite different than your outburst half an hour earlier:
Are you really that thick or you are paid to spew bullshit?
What is wrong with that FFT? It is slower because device has slower CPU. That is not a bug.
A 8 bit converter dynamic range is bug??
Muppet.
Did you actually watch Dave's video before you lashed out at Fungus? Care for an apology?
And speaking of Rigol's "FFT dummy mode": Maybe Siglent's "FFT expert mode" is not all that great, if Dave supposedly can't use it properly? ::)
I appreciate your T&M expertise and the fact that you share it freely on this forum. But your continuous undercurrent of Siglent vs. Rigol bias does taint its value.
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Rigol decided to implement "FFT dummy mode" transformation with no control of FFT parameters. I keep repeating that you need to either implement full RT Spectrum analyser (that does ALL of the necessary transformations from FFT to spectrum display) or a proper FFT mode where you have control over mathematical FFT parameters.
I assumed you knew what you were talking about but I just double-checked the manual and all the parameters seem to be there. Which ones are missing?
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No DOTS display?? only vectors? I wonder why?
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Looks nicer..
Which ones are missing?
Wait until you have it in your own hands. ;)
Before one example:
Where is the size setting ?
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Guys, to be more constructive in comparing your DSOs - let you design a measurement, which may show some tangible data when running on the DSOs of your choice. It should be designed such the same settings are used, of course, and the data will be exported to the PC where you may use the matlab or whatever program for the analysis.
The next step is to compare the FFTs - here again you have to design the proper measurement as well.
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No DOTS display?? only vectors? I wonder why?
Dots used to be a thing on scopes with equivalent time sampling but we've moved on since than - sin(x)/x FTW!
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So what you think which scope was not set up the same as the others ??
You really think Dave didn't double-check the settings when he saw that?
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Thank you for summarizing it much better than what I ever could.
As for my "not really ASIC" comment for Rigol ADC I thank Asmi and you for education. I'm not in ASIC business so my use of terminology will not be correct. What I wanted to say is that while Rigol's ADC obviously is ASIC as a type of product because it is custom made IC that was made by company for their specific use, ASICs are usually made for a very specific function: a switching matrix for a high speed interconnect, a complete integrated sound engine for a synthesizer, or something like that.
In this case, Rigol made "just another ADC", a chip for which there is alternative. Of course that assessment is based on my limited knowledge from what Rigol has published. Maybe they did combine ADC and some sort of DSP to linearize response or something like that.. In which case it would be really single use application specific chip for scopes that could not be replaced easily. And would allow them to have simpler BOM and maybe make significant saving in FPGA resources and such...
But from what I see they still have same architecture as before with ADC-FPGA-App processor. So it seems any saving would be just in price of chip. I personally think it is more about control of sourcing the chip than good price (which is just a bonus).
You are welcome!!
The ADC, or FPGA, is likely the single most expensive IC component in the DSO, and at this price point every $ in BOM matters. Without a custom in-house ADC, one is restricted to available chips from AD, TI and maybe some others, and don't think that anyone can get these ADCs at a price that would fit this price point.
We must remember that TI, AD and others have developed and produced high end performing ADC chips that satisfy many market segments, these incurred much higher development costs, and likely occupy more precious silicon area, involve extensive testing and so on. Whereas Rigol was able to isolate the important parameters that are more meaningful to the DSO market, trim the architecture to reduce the up front development costs, reduce the Si area, and so on.
Would wager that if we got ahold of one of these ADCs where we could do detailed isolated standalone chip testing, the overall performance would be mediocre in general compared to TI and AD. Things like no missing codes, monotonicity, differential & integral linearity, ENOB, aging, drift, temp, PSRR, and so on would not compare well with the TI and AD counterparts. Many of these parameters aren't that important in a DSO application, I mean who really cares if the ADC has a stuck lower bit, or non-monotonic around the LSBs, and so on. Now consider using this ADC as feedback in a complex high speed control system, stuck bits and non-monotonic behavior would be a disaster indeed!!
So Rigol likely (again we don't know), made a smart decision to create an ADC specific for DSO application use, with a main parameter of yield and recurring chip cost, so they could penetrate this low cost market. We're confident you won't see them selling these in the Open Market as a High Speed ADC tho.
Even with the targeted DSO application, they still had a difficult task ahead with the ADC design and apparently did an admirable job :-+
Of course all this discussion is just hearsay and speculation on our part, but likely rooted with some substance ;)
BTW the suite of tests you recommended earlier would be welcome by many, ourselves included. Lets hope that some qualified knowledgable folks can perform some of the tests :)
Best,
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Where is the size setting ?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1883251;image)
One less parameter to juggle. :)
What really counts is the resolution.
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Thank you for summarizing it much better than what I ever could.
As for my "not really ASIC" comment for Rigol ADC I thank Asmi and you for education. I'm not in ASIC business so my use of terminology will not be correct. What I wanted to say is that while Rigol's ADC obviously is ASIC as a type of product because it is custom made IC that was made by company for their specific use, ASICs are usually made for a very specific function: a switching matrix for a high speed interconnect, a complete integrated sound engine for a synthesizer, or something like that.
In this case, Rigol made "just another ADC", a chip for which there is alternative. Of course that assessment is based on my limited knowledge from what Rigol has published. Maybe they did combine ADC and some sort of DSP to linearize response or something like that.. In which case it would be really single use application specific chip for scopes that could not be replaced easily. And would allow them to have simpler BOM and maybe make significant saving in FPGA resources and such...
But from what I see they still have same architecture as before with ADC-FPGA-App processor. So it seems any saving would be just in price of chip. I personally think it is more about control of sourcing the chip than good price (which is just a bonus).
You are welcome!!
The ADC, or FPGA, is likely the single most expensive IC component in the DSO, and at this price point every $ in BOM matters. Without a custom in-house ADC, one is restricted to available chips from AD, TI and maybe some others, and don't think that anyone can get these ADCs at a price that would fit this price point.
We must remember that TI, AD and others have developed and produced high end performing ADC chips that satisfy many market segments, these incurred much higher development costs, and likely occupy more precious silicon area, involve extensive testing and so on. Whereas Rigol was able to isolate the important parameters that are more meaningful to the DSO market, trim the architecture to reduce the up front development costs, reduce the Si area, and so on.
Would wager that if we got ahold of one of these ADCs where we could do detailed isolated standalone chip testing, the overall performance would be mediocre in general compared to TI and AD. Things like no missing codes, monotonicity, differential & integral linearity, ENOB, aging, drift, temp, PSRR, and so on would not compare well with the TI and AD counterparts. Many of these parameters aren't that important in a DSO application, I mean who really cares if the ADC has a stuck lower bit, or non-monotonic around the LSBs, and so on. Now consider using this ADC as feedback in a complex high speed control system, stuck bits and non-monotonic behavior would be a disaster indeed!!
I strongly doubt that. For use in a DSO you need a very good ADC as well. Maybe even more so compared to a control system. Otherwise you'll get all kinds of weird distortions that will show up in a signal. In a control system you can work around it through signal processing (calibration) but when visualising a signal (either time or frequency domain), it is likely that faults do show up and there is very little you can do to cover things up.
I don't know what Rigol has done to get their 'own' ADCs. It could even be that they are buying dies from TI or AD and put these into their own packages with an easier to route pin order. Or maybe they wanted some pre-processing or an interface that allows for a lower BOM cost at the FPGA side. If you look at the ADCs from TI, you'll see that these typically have a JESD204B interface. This uses several high speed, differential pairs to transport the data. At the FPGA side you'll need expensive transceivers. Looking at Dave's teardown, it seems that the ADC Rigol uses has a parallel style interface. Likely a DDR style interface using the standard SERDES inside the FPGA I/O blocks which is a much lower cost solution IF you can place the FPGA close to the ADC.
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Yeah, I have no idea what Dave did there... It is obvious that scopes are not set the same... Which is not surprise because Rigol decided to implement "FFT dummy mode" transformation with no control of FFT parameters. I keep repeating that you need to either implement full RT Spectrum analyser (that does ALL of the necessary transformations from FFT to spectrum display) or a proper FFT mode where you have control over mathematical FFT parameters.
Hmm. That sounds quite different than your outburst half an hour earlier:
Are you really that thick or you are paid to spew bullshit?
What is wrong with that FFT? It is slower because device has slower CPU. That is not a bug.
A 8 bit converter dynamic range is bug??
Muppet.
Did you actually watch Dave's video before you lashed out at Fungus? Care for an apology?
And speaking of Rigol's "FFT dummy mode": Maybe Siglent's "FFT expert mode" is not all that great, if Dave supposedly can't use it properly? ::)
I appreciate your T&M expertise and the fact that you share it freely on this forum. But your continuous undercurrent of Siglent vs. Rigol bias does taint its value.
I apologize to you if I offended you in any form. It was not my intention. As for Fungus, I got fed up with his general hysteric cheerleading without substance, based on few videos without independent confirmations.. And thank you for both honest and candid critique and kind words.
As for me advocating Siglent vs Rigol, I said it many times. I like Siglent's new touch scope line and platform and decisions behind it.
As for Rigol I said (repetitively):
- kudos to them for developing a 2nd generation of ASICS for scopes.
- this second gen front end and ADC chips seem to perform very well, and are great improvement. Again kudos.
- they are bringing to market 12 bit scopes with good analog performance to low cost market. That is great news for everybody-
- they took large undertaking to create new touch scope platform. It looks pretty good so far, it is still early to say how far the development will go but so far impressive effort. Again congrats and bringing that kind of platform into low end is also very good news... While it is in early stages of development I have no doubt it will mature with time. Now they have modern platform in a game. Absolutely great.
Rigol fanboys se my comments as an attack. Which is a myopic and wrong way to look at things. If I were to really work against I would be really quiet and let Rigol keep making half made product and scratch their head "what could we do to make it better".
I don't attack product. I'm not only pointing something is wrong, I always say what is wrong AND what needs to be fixed.
The way I see it Rigol gets free consulting and fanboys get a glimpse there are better things than just worshiping status quo...
If my comments are really not welcome and not useful to anybody I can stop wasting my time and just keep commenting on Siglent scopes. They seem to really appreciate constructive comments and listen, so my effort is not wasted with them.
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...........
- they are bringing to market 12 bit scopes with good analog performance to low cost market.
Are you sure ?
Go back a few pages and look at the disturbing display from a Bodnar pulser where fast edge artifacts seem to be hidden.
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Where is the size setting ?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1883251;image)
One less parameter to juggle. :)
What really counts is the resolution.
Every time I start to feel bad that I said something bad to you, you keep doubling down on wrong stuff..
If you don't understand why it is necessary to have control over number of bins, that is proof you need to learn a bit more before you are qualified to discuss quality of FFT implementation.
To make it clear, there is nothing wrong if scope has auto set of number of bins. It can really be nice for some quick look-see. But it has to have manual control too. If you are doing anything that you have to compare two results you need to be able to make parameters same between two measurements otherwise you cannot compare them 1 to 1.
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Guys, to be more constructive in comparing your DSOs - let you design a measurement, which may show some tangible data when running on the DSOs of your choice. .....
It is me thinking aloud again. For what I do, I would like to see a comparison of e.g. Keysight, R&S, Rigol and Siglent for:
- the switch node of a flyback converter
- i2c or SPI communication, showing the frames, triggering on a specific character, etc.
- output ripple of a DC-DC converter
- fast PWM, RMS, 10-90 rise times, etc. ...
Feel free to inspire me with other examples.
I think, these are kind of measurements that the target audience (hobbyists) does. If you do something more advanced, you simply need a better scope. I have access to high-end scopes but I've been using RTB2004 for practically everything last couple years**. I also have a second scope 54815A 54825A with 2.5 GHz active probes in case I needed something "fast".
I also wonder why some of you are so obsessed with FFT. What is it good for (in this category)? Many old scopes have it too. Practically useless. At least to what I've seen. You need it often? Get a spectrum analyzer! You need it once a year? Dump the data and use Octave.
Just use what was delivered in the package and do some useful measurements. I want to know if I could somehow rely on what Rigol shows. If so, I am ready to try it (DHO900 because of Bode).
my $0.02, again, just me thinking aloud. Feel free to throw rocks at me :-)
**it is portable, stays at my desk, it has quirks too
Note: Dave reviewed a product from Siglent some years ago. He complained about the chassis, rust and sharp edges. Yesterday, I nearly cut my finger when uphacking my 54815A. Edges around the fan are annoyingly sharp.
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Looks nicer..
Which ones are missing?
Wait until you have it in your own hands. ;)
Before one example:
Where is the size setting ?
You can probably force the FFT length by setting the memory length. Assuming Rigol follows the generic FFT implementation, then the number of bins is FFT length / 2.
I also wonder why some of you are so obsessed with FFT. What is it good for (in this category)? Many old scopes have it too. Practically useless. At least to what I've seen.
For low frequency stuff FFT can be quite usefull to get an idea where noise is coming from. A spectrum analyser doesn't work well at 50Hz or even less. A good FFT implementation on a DSO will. But it does take a bit more effort to set it up properly and I'm not sure whether having spectrum analyser-ish controls on a DSO are actually helping. Recently I used FFT on a DSO to figure out where LF noise was coming from by inspecting the frequency spectrum of the signal.
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...........
- they are bringing to market 12 bit scopes with good analog performance to low cost market.
Are you sure ?
Go back a few pages and look at the disturbing display from a Bodnar pulser where fast edge artifacts seem to be hidden.
So far it looks decent enough. You must take into account price.. 800 is cheaper than many funny Owons...
It is fab for the price.. And give Rigol some credit, they are not Muppets.. You and I both like "Siglent's way" better, but Rigol is not some third rate no name company.
As for pulse response, I'm waiting for Martin to get his.
Then I will help him with testing protocol, and we will know what real performance is.
What I see as biggest problem is not the actual analog part. It's analysis, measurements, etc... Useful segmented mode is completely missing as far I can see, measurements graphic representation is step back (you could see more measurements on screen at the same time with stats on DS1000Z) etc... But since all available videos are about irrelevant stuff but not these things, I cannot say if that is really so or we just don't know. Maybe it is missing but will be added later ? Which also reinforces fact that Rigol released unfinished platform. Which is also not such a sin, because even R&S did that... It is just that users need to know that and consent to buying a house that is only partially finished, but it is Ok because they got really good price because of it..
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...........
- they are bringing to market 12 bit scopes with good analog performance to low cost market.
Are you sure ?
Go back a few pages and look at the disturbing display from a Bodnar pulser where fast edge artifacts seem to be hidden.
That's assuming that what the Siglent scope shows is the ground truth. In Dave's quick test and comparison, the R&S RTB2004 showed the same pulse shape as the two Rigols -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8&t=1937s. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8&t=1937s.) Do you have more data to confirm that the Siglent gets it right?
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For low frequency stuff FFT can be quite usefull to get an idea where noise is coming from. A spectrum analyser doesn't work well at 50Hz or even less. A good FFT implementation on a DSO will. But it does take a bit more effort ....
Thank you, yes, this makes sense.
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One less parameter to juggle. :)
You can´t set the size "manually", like on other scopes.
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One less parameter to juggle. :)
You can´t set the size "manually", like on other scopes.
You can, but you drive the number of FFT points through the RBW setting on the Rigol (this is not uncommon, FFT on an R&S scope works in a similar manner). Setting the RBW at least gives you some information about what to expect from the FFT in terms of frequency resolution.
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If you don't understand why it is necessary to have control over number of bins, that is proof you need to learn a bit more before you are qualified to discuss quality of FFT implementation.
To make it clear, there is nothing wrong if scope has auto set of number of bins. It can really be nice for some quick look-see. But it has to have manual control too. If you are doing anything that you have to compare two results you need to be able to make parameters same between two measurements otherwise you cannot compare them 1 to 1.
Number of bins usually has to be "as many as possible".
You can easily compare two measurements by making sure the same "resolution" is shown at the top of the screen. That's based on the sample rate so it can be controlled just as manually as the number of bins can. Maybe it's not the way you're used to working, but it can be done. To me it seems less of a problem than Siglent's "zoom" philosophy but Siglent owners will defend that one to death.
(b): The proof of the pudding is in the eating! The Rigol seems to be comparing favorably with a monster R&S in that little shootout.
(c) Pending Dave's confirmation, there definitely seems to be something wrong with the Siglent. I'm very sure he'll have triple-checked the FFT settings before posting that video. Place your bets.
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You can, but you drive the number of FFT points through the RBW setting on the Rigol (this is not uncommon, FFT on an R&S scope works in a similar manner). Setting the RBW at least gives you some information about what to expect from the FFT in terms of frequency resolution.
Yes, it's much easier to just adjust the horizontal timebase and see the resolution visually than to set a number of bins in a menu somewhere then try and find a timebase that works well with that number of bins.
Like I said: One less parameter to juggle (and possibly get wrong).
This seems like a sensible decision on an entry level 'scope. That together with the pinch-zoom and touch screen movement probably means you hardly ever have to use the setup dialog.
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author=Fungus link=topic=385309.msg5077336#msg5077336
Number of bins usually has to be "as many as possible".
No,no and no. You use as much as you need.
For instance, you might have results from a simulation on a PC. And you set scope to as close settings as you can to compare....
If you are trying to plot BW plot you might want wider bins to get a nice looking plot instead of "comb" to make measurements with cursors easier..
And many other reasons..
Look it is similar to multimeter autoranging. Autoranging IS useful for general probing. But there is no meter that does not allow you to lock manual range. Because when you need it you just do..
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Where is the size setting ?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1883251;image)
One less parameter to juggle. :)
What really counts is the resolution.
Every time I start to feel bad that I said something bad to you, you keep doubling down on wrong stuff..
If you don't understand why it is necessary to have control over number of bins, that is proof you need to learn a bit more before you are qualified to discuss quality of FFT implementation.
To make it clear, there is nothing wrong if scope has auto set of number of bins. It can really be nice for some quick look-see. But it has to have manual control too. If you are doing anything that you have to compare two results you need to be able to make parameters same between two measurements otherwise you cannot compare them 1 to 1.
With the FFT resolution they have it the wrong way around: the FFT resolution is set by 1 over the recording time. So with a fixed number of points (e.g. 1 M maximum) the higher the sampling rate the shorter the interval and the lower the resolution. It can thus make sense to intentionally reduce the sampling rate to get even better resolution for the FFT. With 1 M points one usually has quite good resolution, but in extreme cases one may still want more. If not directly as a parameter one could use the horizontal scale to adjust the sampling rate - though this may interfere with a parallel display in the time domain.
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Where is the size setting ?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1883251;image)
One less parameter to juggle. :)
What really counts is the resolution.
Every time I start to feel bad that I said something bad to you, you keep doubling down on wrong stuff..
If you don't understand why it is necessary to have control over number of bins, that is proof you need to learn a bit more before you are qualified to discuss quality of FFT implementation.
To make it clear, there is nothing wrong if scope has auto set of number of bins. It can really be nice for some quick look-see. But it has to have manual control too. If you are doing anything that you have to compare two results you need to be able to make parameters same between two measurements otherwise you cannot compare them 1 to 1.
With the FFT resolution they have it the wrong way around: the FFT resolution is set by 1 over the recording time. So with a fixed number of points (e.g. 1 M maximum) the higher the sampling rate the shorter the interval and the lower the resolution. It can thus make sense to intentionally reduce the sampling rate to get even better resolution for the FFT. With 1 M points one usually has quite good resolution, but in extreme cases one may still want more. If not directly as a parameter one could use the horizontal scale to adjust the sampling rate - though this may interfere with a parallel display in the time domain.
Thank you!
Yes, you need separate control of timebase (sampling speed) and number of bins..
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Where is the size setting ?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1883251;image)
One less parameter to juggle. :)
What really counts is the resolution.
Every time I start to feel bad that I said something bad to you, you keep doubling down on wrong stuff..
If you don't understand why it is necessary to have control over number of bins, that is proof you need to learn a bit more before you are qualified to discuss quality of FFT implementation.
To make it clear, there is nothing wrong if scope has auto set of number of bins. It can really be nice for some quick look-see. But it has to have manual control too. If you are doing anything that you have to compare two results you need to be able to make parameters same between two measurements otherwise you cannot compare them 1 to 1.
With the FFT resolution they have it the wrong way around: the FFT resolution is set by 1 over the recording time. So with a fixed number of points (e.g. 1 M maximum) the higher the sampling rate the shorter the interval and the lower the resolution. It can thus make sense to intentionally reduce the sampling rate to get even better resolution for the FFT. With 1 M points one usually has quite good resolution, but in extreme cases one may still want more. If not directly as a parameter one could use the horizontal scale to adjust the sampling rate - though
Actually, one should use the horizontal scale (timebase) to set the base FFT frequency span by forcing a certain samplerate. No matter how the FFT is controlled through the GUI, that is the most crucial setting (next to forcing the memory length if there isn't a seperate setting for the number of FFT points).
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I assumed you knew what you were talking about but I just double-checked the manual and all the parameters seem to be there. Which ones are missing?
Basically, the FFT settings are the same as in DS1054Z, nothing is new except more potent hardware. Where are a features like Spectrum View (https://www.tek.com/en/blog/new-approach-frequency-analysis-oscilloscopes-part-1 (https://www.tek.com/en/blog/new-approach-frequency-analysis-oscilloscopes-part-1))?
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The UltraAcquire mode looks like a poor-man's seqmented memory mode. It's mentioned in Dave's Full Review around the 40 minute mark. This from the DHO4000 manual, page 60:
The UltraAcquire mode is not available when any of the following functions is enabled:
cursors, decoding, Search, Zoom, Pass/Fail test, waveform recording, power analysis,
reference waveform, roll mode, slow sweep mode, and XY mode. To switch to the
UltraAcquire mode, please ensure that all of those functions are disabled.
• In UltraAcquire mode, the functions mentioned above (except for roll mode and slow
sweep mode) are disabled. When roll mode or slow sweep mode is enabled, the
acquisition mode is automatically switched to "Normal".
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It´s a marketing gag with nice looking graphics.
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Thank you for summarizing it much better than what I ever could.
As for my "not really ASIC" comment for Rigol ADC I thank Asmi and you for education. I'm not in ASIC business so my use of terminology will not be correct. What I wanted to say is that while Rigol's ADC obviously is ASIC as a type of product because it is custom made IC that was made by company for their specific use, ASICs are usually made for a very specific function: a switching matrix for a high speed interconnect, a complete integrated sound engine for a synthesizer, or something like that.
In this case, Rigol made "just another ADC", a chip for which there is alternative. Of course that assessment is based on my limited knowledge from what Rigol has published. Maybe they did combine ADC and some sort of DSP to linearize response or something like that.. In which case it would be really single use application specific chip for scopes that could not be replaced easily. And would allow them to have simpler BOM and maybe make significant saving in FPGA resources and such...
But from what I see they still have same architecture as before with ADC-FPGA-App processor. So it seems any saving would be just in price of chip. I personally think it is more about control of sourcing the chip than good price (which is just a bonus).
You are welcome!!
The ADC, or FPGA, is likely the single most expensive IC component in the DSO, and at this price point every $ in BOM matters. Without a custom in-house ADC, one is restricted to available chips from AD, TI and maybe some others, and don't think that anyone can get these ADCs at a price that would fit this price point.
We must remember that TI, AD and others have developed and produced high end performing ADC chips that satisfy many market segments, these incurred much higher development costs, and likely occupy more precious silicon area, involve extensive testing and so on. Whereas Rigol was able to isolate the important parameters that are more meaningful to the DSO market, trim the architecture to reduce the up front development costs, reduce the Si area, and so on.
Would wager that if we got ahold of one of these ADCs where we could do detailed isolated standalone chip testing, the overall performance would be mediocre in general compared to TI and AD. Things like no missing codes, monotonicity, differential & integral linearity, ENOB, aging, drift, temp, PSRR, and so on would not compare well with the TI and AD counterparts. Many of these parameters aren't that important in a DSO application, I mean who really cares if the ADC has a stuck lower bit, or non-monotonic around the LSBs, and so on. Now consider using this ADC as feedback in a complex high speed control system, stuck bits and non-monotonic behavior would be a disaster indeed!!
I strongly doubt that. For use in a DSO you need a very good ADC as well. Maybe even more so compared to a control system. Otherwise you'll get all kinds of weird distortions that will show up in a signal. In a control system you can work around it through signal processing (calibration) but when visualising a signal (either time or frequency domain), it is likely that faults do show up and there is very little you can do to cover things up.
Obviously you have no clue about feedback systems and employing ADCs as the feedback mechanize mechanism. On high gain high precision feedback systems almost the entire system precision performance is dictated by the feedback, not the forward path, this is like typical Op-Amp territory. A little control theory will show this is true and if one involves a high speed ADC as the "feedback" mechanism, then almost the entire system performance is dictated by that very ADC in the feedback, far more demanding than the open-loop use of a DSO.
Now consider the SDR, this really leverages the ADC, and most of the radios performance is dictated by the core ADC. Also the SA use, the linearity is paramount and one must remember not all SA utilize the simple FFTs as these DSOs employ, many utilize various DSP modes including the Chirp Z Transform, blends of hardware and so on.
So if one thinks that these DSOs are a demanding application for an ADC, they really need to go back and review where ADCs are utilized in todays world.
Best,
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I don't know what Rigol has done to get their 'own' ADCs. It could even be that they are buying dies from TI or AD and put these into their own packages with an easier to route pin order. Or maybe they wanted some pre-processing or an interface that allows for a lower BOM cost at the FPGA side. If you look at the ADCs from TI, you'll see that these typically have a JESD204B interface. This uses several high speed, differential pairs to transport the data. At the FPGA side you'll need expensive transceivers. Looking at Dave's teardown, it seems that the ADC Rigol uses has a parallel style interface. Likely a DDR style interface using the standard SERDES inside the FPGA I/O blocks which is a much lower cost solution IF you can place the FPGA close to the ADC.
Rigol wouldn't be advertising their custom 12 bit ADCs if they were simply repackaging a lower grade ADC from AD or TI, this would lead to total embarrassment in the marketplace when discovered!! They may have employed TI, or AD to consult in the ADC design, but this is unlikely as TI and AD usually don't get involved in this for their key IP products. We're reasonably confident that Rigol did develop their own ADC, maybe with some "outside" help, or "commissioned" said development, but will leave it at that!!
Anyway, Rigol has introduced a low cost DSO employing some custom ICs that has created lots of interest and discussion, so we are all in for a treat as this emerges!!
Best,
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We're reasonably confident that Rigol did develop their own ADC, maybe with some "outside" help, or "commissioned" said development, but will leave it at that!!
The fact that it took them a few iterations to get it working at this level also supports this, ie. that they didn't simply buy an ADC from somebody..
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The UltraAcquire mode looks like a poor-man's seqmented memory mode. It's mentioned in Dave's Full Review around the 40 minute mark.
UltraAquire has a few interesting tricks.
This video compares both modes (normal segmented and UltraAcquire):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBad0a1B2U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBad0a1B2U)
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We're reasonably confident that Rigol did develop their own ADC, maybe with some "outside" help, or "commissioned" said development, but will leave it at that!!
The fact that it took them a few iterations to get it working at this level also supports this, that they didn't simply buy an ADC from somebody..
Yep, pretty obvious to those "skilled in the art" that this is true!!
Best,
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Looks like there's a firmware update this week:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-hdo1000-12-bit-dso-bugs/msg5077489/#msg5077489 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-hdo1000-12-bit-dso-bugs/msg5077489/#msg5077489)
(that's for the 1000-series but it will probably appear for the 800/900 too)
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The UltraAcquire mode looks like a poor-man's seqmented memory mode. It's mentioned in Dave's Full Review around the 40 minute mark.
UltraAquire has a few interesting tricks.
This video compares both modes (normal segmented and UltraAcquire):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBad0a1B2U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBad0a1B2U)
It is just a visual mode. None of measurements decoding or anything really of what analysis it does have does not work in either of the modes...
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Ummm, I don't know what you guys are arguing about, but I just got my shiny new DHO804 and have some fun with it. ;D
Got this baby at 2299 RMB (320 US dollars) ;D
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I watched Dave's review, and if I didn't already have some scopes, I'd probably get 1. The DHO4000 is out of my price range, so is the SDS2000HD. I'll get some 12-bit scope down the road, so probably the DHO1000 or similar Siglent 1000HD
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..I also wonder why some of you are so obsessed with FFT. What is it good for (in this category)? Many old scopes have it too. Practically useless. At least to what I've seen. You need it often? Get a spectrum analyzer! You need it once a year? Dump the data and use Octave..
The properly working FFT is the cherry on the top.. It actually depicts the real parameters of the scope as the resulting spectra depend on the scope parameters which EEs may consider important. And yes, in past the produced spectra were of little use, but with a higher resolution and a better FFT implementations (what does it mean better here?) the FFT could become rather useful tool (ie the spectrum analyzer for lower frequency areas). And hopefully we will get the Octave installed in that scope soon :)
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People who buy a budget scope usually don't have a spectrum analyzer. So it is real plus if the scope can also offer at least some SA functions. From what is shown in Daves video the FFT implementation is quite good: quite fast and with a large number of points the dynamic range is also not that bad. Here the 12 Bit ADC may really help for a little more dynamic range - it can depend on the gain setting though as it is not only the ADC to cause noise.
It is not just for low frequencies - it allready covers the usualy radio IF frequencies (e.g. 10.7 MHz , 455 kHz and even some 45 MHz used in old days analog TV).
There is another plus (especially for a beginner) of the scope over a real SA: the inputs are usually way more robust.
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...........
- they are bringing to market 12 bit scopes with good analog performance to low cost market.
Are you sure ?
Go back a few pages and look at the disturbing display from a Bodnar pulser where fast edge artifacts seem to be hidden.
That's assuming that what the Siglent scope shows is the ground truth. In Dave's quick test and comparison, the R&S RTB2004 showed the same pulse shape as the two Rigols -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8&t=1937s. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8&t=1937s.) Do you have more data to confirm that the Siglent gets it right?
Dunno about you but I trust Dot mode and when I see a waveform from a Bodnar pulser without over/undershoots I am very suspicious of inaccurate waveform reconstruction.
Even the bottom of the heap 50 MHz SDS1052DL+ and right to current flagship model SDS6204A, both in Dot mode show us what should not be hidden as they also do in Vector mode.
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..
It is not just for low frequencies - it allready covers the usualy radio IF frequencies (e.g. 10.7 MHz , 455 kHz and even some 45 MHz used in old days analog TV)..
And the talented EEs here may build a DIY down converter for the higher frequencies as well (like 45-XXXXMHz).. :)
PS: ie. the usual SDR DVBT USB dongles have got ~3MHz baseband BW and an 8bit ADC.. :D
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Dunno about you but I trust Dot mode and when I see a waveform from a Bodnar pulser without over/undershoots I am very suspicious of inaccurate waveform reconstruction.
Even the bottom of the heap 50 MHz SDS1052DL+ and right to current flagship model SDS6204A, both in Dot mode show us what should not be hidden as they also do in Vector mode.
Well, ringing on that scale is not present in the actual output of the pulse generator. (As shown in the scope traces taken at 20 ps/div, https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=375 (https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=375)).
Is it just a "philosophical" matter how scope designers lay out their front end low-pass filters then? The Siglents seem to use a very sharp cutoff, which results in ringing being displayed on the scope which is not actually present in the input signal, while Rigol and R&S seem to apply a smoother cutoff. Which avoids adding "artificial ringing", but may also mean that real high-frequency components near the nominal cutoff are suppressed somewhat more.
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Dunno about you but I trust Dot mode and when I see a waveform from a Bodnar pulser without over/undershoots I am very suspicious of inaccurate waveform reconstruction.
Even the bottom of the heap 50 MHz SDS1052DL+ and right to current flagship model SDS6204A, both in Dot mode show us what should not be hidden as they also do in Vector mode.
The high end scope showed some ringing at the edges, but only very fast one and the rinding is also before the transistion, which is a bit suspecious. So even that ringing may be an artifact of the scope. The main point is showing no slow ringing.
How much ringing one gets in the reconstructed waveform one than gets depends on the filter that is used to do the BW limiting - the slower overshoot is not really there but only an articat of the slower scopes and maybe a point depending on the actual input impedance of the different scopes. Near there BW limit the input impedance may be different from the simple 1 M + some 20 pF as the nominal value and this can effect the pulser. The reconstruction of the rigol scope with no overshoot could be just a result of the filter with a slower roll off - the front end and ADC that are in theory capable of much higher speed could alow for a rather good reconstruction, e.g. with the ADC interally using oversampling and averaging to get away with a less steep filter. The custom ADC chip may be more than just 1 simple 12 bit ADC.
Alternatively they could have also just choosen a different balance between ringing and aliasing - so avoid ringing and accept more aliasing.
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tautech looks for his risetime waveform capture from Leo Bodnar......
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tautech looks for his risetime waveform capture from Leo Bodnar......
I gave a link to Leo's site in the post above.
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tautech looks for his risetime waveform capture from Leo Bodnar......
Yeah well tell me there's no ringing in this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=1302788)
Still there's a significant error in the stated RT by an order of magnitude.
1 GHz SDS5104X displays ringing too.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=1302860)
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ok so call be dumb or whatever. But: for an input filter (that creates a ringing)... it cannot be in the scope design as an adjustable parameter (at least: for some scopes)?
i.e. to calibrate or perhaps to adjust for improving on a specific task?
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tautech looks for his risetime waveform capture from Leo Bodnar......
I gave a link to Leo's site in the post above.
You did and I'll give you another to the development of Leo's pulser where many screenshots show ringing.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/)
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Yeah well tell me there's no ringing in this:
As I said above: There is no ringing on that scale, i.e. the timescale on which the Siglent scopes show ringing. In fact, every Siglent screenshot you shared seems to show ringing at a frequency in the range of the respective scope's bandwidth limit. It seems quite clear that the ringing is caused by the scopes' bandwidth limiting filters.
I don't mean to criticize the Siglent scopes here; as mentioned above, one can argue that it is a matter of philosophy or personal preference how the bandpass should be designed. Although I personally do prefer the smoother roll-off which is apparently used by R&S and Rigol -- lest I chase overshoots which aren't really in the signal.
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tautech looks for his risetime waveform capture from Leo Bodnar......
Yeah well tell me there's no ringing in this:
Definitely not the 0.24/0.29ps.. :)
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I also wonder why some of you are so obsessed with FFT. What is it good for (in this category)? Many old scopes have it too. Practically useless. At least to what I've seen. You need it often? Get a spectrum analyzer! You need it once a year? Dump the data and use Octave.
As nctnico and iMo mentioned, the recent implementations of the DSO FFT can be quite useful indeed. If you search for the recent R&S FFT implementation videos this performance is impressive. Siglent does a good job, but is slow and lacks some features which would augment its' use (log frequency scale for example). We don't have a Rigol, so can't comment on their implementation other than what we've seen reviewed, which seems to indicate some areas lacking.
Long ago back in the old analog Tek scope days, we would take the vertical channel output from the lab Tek scopes and feed this into an HP SA so we could get the benefit of the scope channel inputs & probes (WB Hi Z and such), and see the Time Domain and Frequency Domain results, now the modern DSO does this for us!! Sure the DSO FFT has nowhere near the Dynamic Range of a proper SA, nor the upper frequency range, but has the benefit of the lower frequency range (SA usually don't drop below ~9KHz), and Time and Frequency Domain viewing.
There are speciality instruments like Signal Analyzers that cover the lower frequency ranges and have good DR, but they are dedicated expensive and bulky instruments. Here, when one employs a modern quality DSO FFT implementation, one appreciates the value and convenience of the DSO implemented FFT.
Sure there's lots of room for improvement, but please don't discount the value of a quality implemented FFT on a modern DSO, similar to discounting/utilizing the Bode function...but that's another discussion.
Wrt to the FFT parameters, this can be confusing when jumping between Time and Frequency Domains since the FFT bridges both, whereas the SA just deals in the Frequency Domain and simpler to visualize. Something that can help folks jumping between these domains is to realize they are "orthogonal or inverse" type domains, meaning that something Narrow in one domain is Wide in the other. For example; a narrow voltage pulse in the TD appears as a wide frequency response in the FD, and a narrow frequency response (sine) in the FD appears as a wide response in the TD (long cycles of sine)*.
So when one thinks of FFT resolution (narrow FD) this implies TD length (long), and the Sample Rate (high for narrow pulses) determines the frequency span (wide).
An interesting function is the Gaussian, which has the same general characteristics in both Time and Frequency Domains meaning the Time and frequency responses have the same shape. This was a reason for using Gaussian Shaped Pulses way back in the early days.
Anyway, these are just some concepts that might help get ones arms around the FFT.
* Here the assumption is the signal is continuous before and after the FFT capture window and leads into Windowing Functions which is another separate complex FFT topic.
Best,
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My friends, I think I'm on the market of buying a new scope. I've got my old and trusty micsig TO1004 which I love. The only thing that's a bit annoying is the UI is a bit slow (though still much faster than RTB2004). Also the screen is a bit too low in resolution (800x600). So I'm thinking of an upgrade.
TBH, I don't find a small form factor appealing as that means a tiny screen. So, I'd prefer a micsig with the screen taking most of the space, if only they had 12bit model. I'm also looking at vertical space. On my micsig I have 10 divisions, but on rigol it's only 8. Is there a way to get more? That would be useful for me, as even on my old micsig with averaging and DC offset I can make use of the whole screen.
BTW, I can scroll the waveform "outside" of the screen, like on the screenshot included. The signal is ~5.5V p-p, but I only display a top portion of it. No magnification or anything, I just put part of the trace below the screen (DC offset?). While it can't properly show value of low voltage (it's about 0.1V instead of displayed "2.12V?"), the top portion is correct, and doesn't contain any traces of frontend overload or something. It also can capture data at least one vertical division above what's on display. So, how's rigol in this regard?
Question 2: is there a "response" from Siglent? I mean, do they have any plans to release something new in 12bit world?
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The HW in the new Rigol series is more advanced, but the FFT feature seems ported from the 8-bit series. With the new HW, the efforts to make it more convenient seems justifiable but it will likely take years for Rigol to do something. BTW, it's no problem to use it as is. Some preparation work is required from user, but it's a one-time effort, to calculate all the related settings in the table. Some time ago I did that for DS1000Z and similar table can be calculated for the new series.
It can be found on the internet that according to 2019 "Global and Chinese Electronic Measuring Instrument Industry Independent Market Report" by Frost & Sullivan, Rigol is one of the five leading manufacturers on the global oscilloscope market and is the only rated Chinese manufacturer. For a leading companies, it's natural to be on the conservative side and do not present the product such that it appears to perform better than it actually can. A position that the competitors usually just can't afford. Too much activity in the SW area can backfire, especially on not so experienced users, as it's demonstrated by the competitors. So it's not so bad, actually.
Edit: added the frequency span column in the table.
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TBH, I don't find a small form factor appealing as that means a tiny screen.
It's You can use any HDMI touch screen, as big as you want.
Question 2: is there a "response" from Siglent? I mean, do they have any plans to release something new in 12bit world?
Not at this price point.
The only hint at new devices is this: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-hd-coming/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-hd-coming/)
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My friends, I think I'm on the market of buying a new scope. I've got my old and trusty micsig TO1004 which I love. The only thing that's a bit annoying is the UI is a bit slow (though still much faster than RTB2004). Also the screen is a bit too low in resolution (800x600). So I'm thinking of an upgrade.
TBH, I don't find a small form factor appealing as that means a tiny screen. So, I'd prefer a micsig with the screen taking most of the space, if only they had 12bit model. I'm also looking at vertical space. On my micsig I have 10 divisions, but on rigol it's only 8. Is there a way to get more? That would be useful for me, as even on my old micsig with averaging and DC offset I can make use of the whole screen.
BTW, I can scroll the waveform "outside" of the screen, like on the screenshot included. The signal is ~5.5V p-p, but I only display a top portion of it. No magnification or anything, I just put part of the trace below the screen (DC offset?). While it can't properly show value of low voltage (it's about 0.1V instead of displayed "2.12V?"), the top portion is correct, and doesn't contain any traces of frontend overload or something. It also can capture data at least one vertical division above what's on display. So, how's rigol in this regard?
Question 2: is there a "response" from Siglent? I mean, do they have any plans to release something new in 12bit world?
All recent Siglent models offer Ref Position settings, for Horizontal when set to Fixed the H Pos marker remains fixed regardless of timebase settings when not in the 0s position.
For Vertical, a similar feature is available to much further extend channel vertical offset limits and allow vertical zoom in on the limits/peaks of the waveform.
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BTW, nobody was surprised that it runs on android 7? It's a 7 years old OS, long-time discontinued. I guess, that was one of the ways to cut costs. The RK3399 is also from the same era. So, compatibility with newer android application will be limited (if it matters, not sure what I'd install on this scope).
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I'm not an Android SME, but generally speaking it's not unusual for embedded systems to run on "mature" and even EOS versions of operating systems. They tend to be more stable and rock solid. I still see commercial kiosks, self-checkout systems, etc. running embedded versions of Windows XP and even 2000.
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I don't think Android was selected as the OS for the ability to install apps. It just needs to do it's job running the scope. The only 'concern' I'd have is that of network security, but that is never really achievable and at least you can mitigate security issues with an appropriate firewall or similar.
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I don't think Android was selected as the OS for the ability to install apps. It just needs to do it's job running the scope. The only 'concern' I'd have is that of network security, but that is never really achievable and at least you can mitigate security issues with an appropriate firewall or similar.
Android was probably not even "chosen" but simply it pretty much came with the chip, ready to use...
That and the fact that once you start development you don't want any changes while in active development cycle is probably reason for the version.
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I'm not an Android SME, but generally speaking it's not unusual for embedded systems to run on "mature" and even EOS versions of operating systems. They tend to be more stable and rock solid. I still see commercial kiosks, self-checkout systems, etc. running embedded versions of Windows XP and even 2000.
Yep. The last thing you want when developing something like this is a daily popup saying "An update is available!!!"
People aren't supposed to be installing apps on these.
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Are there any applications that you must install on a oscilloscope? Genshin?
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I really like the application that Micsig has added to their scopes.
A second one would be a good calculator.
An application for ftp-transfer would also be handy.
Are there any applications that you must install on a oscilloscope? Genshin?
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The age of these older legacy Android ROMs can also cause problems for third-party apks.
Even at something as diversed as fx browser...when recording videos on the Micsig, I tend to just use the browser to upload the video to fx Youtube but it doesn't seem to play along anymore.
You can obviously browse EEVblog, or watch YouTube videos or dump all your scopedata directly into office programs on the scope .
What 7" display technology are Rigols DHO800 & 900 series using.. LCD "TFT or IPS".?
https://i.imgur.com/1OgW2wo.jpg https://i.imgur.com/oQVSYgc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vpicXSy.jpg https://i.imgur.com/eYiECQt.jpg
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An application for ftp-transfer would also be handy.
I use my micsig's Wifi FTP server all the time for copying screenshots to my PC. I hope there's a neat/simple way to make WiFi work on these new Rigols.
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An application for ftp-transfer would also be handy.
I use my micsig's Wifi FTP server all the time for copying screenshots to my PC. I hope there's a neat/simple way to make WiFi work on these new Rigols.
what's the micsig model you own? I haven't decided yet between this Rigol dho800 or the micsig sto1004c i need portability mostly. i don't think the price difference between sato vs sto justifies the first vs features
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An application for ftp-transfer would also be handy.
I use my micsig's Wifi FTP server all the time for copying screenshots to my PC. I hope there's a neat/simple way to make WiFi work on these new Rigols.
what's the micsig model you own? I haven't decided yet between this Rigol dho800 or the micsig sto1004c i need portability mostly. i don't think the price difference between sato vs sto justifies the first vs features
There isn't a STO1004C model as per se.
-there is STO1004 (4x 4way joystick + 19 buttons) current entryline, likely that model, you'r wondering about.
-there is STO1104C (7x rotary knobs + 23 buttons) previous line. (STO1000 & 2000 C/E line)
There are also differences in mem-depth and waveform update rate fx between STO1004 & STO1104C.. STO1104C seems to peak at 100.000 in practice, while STO1004 is 130.000 on paper.
STO1104C https://tinyurl.com/48ahf9y5
The DHO800/900 would also work great as a mobile scope, as you can suit it up with more or less any power bank delivering its protocol and piggyback ride that on the back..
I guess the Rigol DHO800 & 900 series is using 15v PD charge protocol?
Just as I do with the Micsig, just with 12v power delivery tr-cable. (PD) even though it obviously got built-in battery
If you wanna use the scope outside screen brightness is also a factor to include.
Micsig 8" screen seems to top at a tad over 410nits with just a small blank white slide to check peak. (its screen is TFT LCD) I am not sure how bright the DHO 7" series are or what LCD panel tech its using..(TFT or IPS?)
https://i.imgur.com/owKrWvF.jpg
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A second one would be a good calculator.
An application for ftp-transfer would also be handy.
Are there any applications that you must install on a oscilloscope? Genshin?
I always got a casio calculator near my bench. Calculator with touch screen isn't a good idea.
It's do be shameful for lacking WIFI supporting. But I got some thumb drive for waveform storage or screenshots. So it's not a big deal to me.
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An application for ftp-transfer would also be handy.
I use my micsig's Wifi FTP server all the time for copying screenshots to my PC. I hope there's a neat/simple way to make WiFi work on these new Rigols.
what's the micsig model you own? I haven't decided yet between this Rigol dho800 or the micsig sto1004c i need portability mostly. i don't think the price difference between sato vs sto justifies the first vs features
There isn't a STO1004C model as per se.
-there is STO1004 (4x 4way joystick + 19 buttons) current entryline, likely that model, you'r wondering about.
-there is STO1104C (7x rotary knobs + 23 buttons) previous line. (STO1000 & 2000 C/E line)
The DHO800/900 would also work great as a mobile scope, as you can suit it up with more or less any power bank delivering its protocol and piggyback ride that on the back..
I guess the Rigol DHO800 & 900 series is using 15v PD charge protocol?
Just as I do with the Micsig, just with 12v power delivery tr-cable. (PD) even though it obviously got built-in battery
If you wanna use the scope outside screen brightness is also a factor to include.
Micsig 8" screen seems to top at a tad over 410nits with just a small blank white slide to check peak. (its screen is TFT LCD) I am not sure how bright the DHO 7" series are or what LCD panel tech its using..(TFT or IPS?)
https://i.imgur.com/owKrWvF.jpg
Hi DaneLaw, my mistake, I mean STO1004 the new model with joysticks, and a must is using a wireless mouse with it, It should work right? The Rigol is interesting and I'm waiting for some real tests. I think the USB-C port on Rigol doesn't negotiate the voltage, it's fixed 15V or I'm I wrong? that could be a problem with many of the powerbanks available or on the other side could be an advantage if i build my own powerpack with 18650 or 21700 cells.
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The initial prototype/preview scopes shipped with a fixed 12V USB-C charger, but production units are shipping with proper 12V PD chargers from Lenovo or Lite-On. USB-C battery packs have already been demonstrated to work just fine.
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I think the USB-C port on Rigol doesn't negotiate the voltage, it's fixed 15V or I'm I wrong? that could be a problem with many of the powerbanks available or on the other side could be an advantage if i build my own powerpack with 18650 or 21700 cells.
It negotiates. It worked with a crappy fixed 12V 4A power supply that was shipped with early units in China, but now ships with a decent Lenovo 65W power supply that does proper PD negotiation:
- Re: Rigol DHO 0800 USB-C observations (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho-0800-usb-c-observations/msg5074348/#msg5074348)
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My fingers and brain only tolerate a RPN (or RPL) calculator;-)
I have several HP's lying around, but I'm using the phone (and so with a touch screen) with an emulator app more and more.
=I always got a casio calculator near my bench. Calculator with touch screen isn't a good idea.
It's do be shameful for lacking WIFI supporting. But I got some thumb drive for waveform storage or screenshots. So it's not a big deal to me.
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what's the micsig model you own? I haven't decided yet between this Rigol dho800 or the micsig sto1004c i need portability mostly. i don't think the price difference between sato vs sto justifies the first vs features
A STO1004 with the joysticks.
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That's a shame if it's 12v PD as it seems like it could be a standard that is getting less support... I thought I heard mention of 15v in one of Dave's videos, but can't find it and the unboxing video does show a 12v brick.
The problem with 12v PD is that some of the higher-powered modern power banks, that can deliver fx +35-40watt for these DHOs, would be power banks intended for ultrabooks/laptops, Windows tablets etc and here 12V PD seems to be a standard they are ditching.
Fx Anker. I got a few of their latest power banks... like the 140watt-pr-USB-C-socket, and they got the full power delivery up to PD3.1 with full backward support PD 3.0, 2.0, 1.0 and they drop support for 12v PD..
(*these higher wattage standard like PD3.1 do need special high wattage cables with a corresponding marker chip that negotiate for that standard) though you can always override it, with a PD decoy trigger like below).
I use 12V PD for my Micsig scope, as we have a lot of PD power supplies & power banks in our household, and was surprised to see that I can't use the latest power banks from "Anker" as 12V PD/power delivery is gone.. PD protocol jumps from 9v to 15v, 20v.. PD 15v is quite common as that is what Microsoft uses in their surface line.
A PD protocol dump of 3 different power banks with power delivery support 2.0 to 3.1. ranging from 65w, 95w to 140watt pr TypeC socket but its the latest models from "Anker" which I was surprised to see they have dropped support for PD 12v (Anker model 737-24k) the other two power banks is quite a few years old, and do have power deliver/PD 12v support.
140w, 65w & 95w (text sharper on imgur hosting site)
https://i.imgur.com/UPZm8fe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PXcukdu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iwzTRLp.jpg
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Just a few questions:
Did I understand right that the waveform update rate was down to 1000/sec with only one channel enabled at 50 ns/s with full mem depth ? And the screen actually even showed a lower than 1M mem depth? And it went up only when Dave lowered the mem. depth?
How is the update rate with two channels enabled?
Because the 1104x-e has many times of that with full mem depth and two channels enabled in the same group.
Also interesting weteher it is possible to have a zoom in view on the vertical scale without changing the vertical scale, so getting the getting the full height of the signal?
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That's a shame if it's 12v PD as it seems like it could be a standard that is getting less support... I thought I heard mention of 15v in one of Dave's videos, but can't find it and the unboxing video does show a 12v brick.
It runs fine with the fixed 12V supply they shipped with the first samples, but it negotiates 15V when connected to a power supply which supports PD negotiation. See e.g. this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4970437/#msg4970437).
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That's a shame if it's 12v PD as it seems like it could be a standard that is getting less support... I thought I heard mention of 15v in one of Dave's videos, but can't find it and the unboxing video does show a 12v brick.
It runs fine with the fixed 12V supply they shipped with the first samples, but it negotiates 15V when connected to a power supply which supports PD negotiation. See e.g. this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4970437/#msg4970437).
I see, so it will both take a crude/fixed 12v input OG-style, and if senses power delivery, it will negotiate for 15v/3A PD std.(maybe also why they ditch PD 12v if that standard is being out-phased)
Haven't seen that before, usually it's one or the other.
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I just got a chance to touch HDO924S. To me the screen is too tiny. I also don't like how they used screen real estate. I had a feeling that "there must be a button to make waveforms fullscreen". As of touchscreen experience, it was a bit awkward and controls were too small at times. Also I think it didn't always register my fingers reliably, or my fingers are too big for it. Like, I had to press help button in bottom left corner like four times before it worked. Something like HDO4000 with bigger screen is better for me , but it's way too expensive. Using physical controls instead of touchscreen felt a bit like step back after micsig. It didn't feel like touch control is a native thing for it.
The AWG has amplitude of only +-5V. Kinda enough for most of the cases, but +-10V would be better for my needs.
Of course, there are good things about the rigol, I just don't want to repeat). Overall, I did't get hyped while using it. So, I'll stay for now with my old scope. May be in future I'll loan one to test it better. At the end, micsig also has its quirks, nothing is perfect.
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I just got a chance to touch HDO924S. To me the screen is too tiny. I also don't like how they used screen real estate. I had a feeling that "there must be a button to make waveforms fullscreen". As of touchscreen experience, it was a bit awkward and controls were too small at times. Also I think it didn't always register my fingers reliably, or my fingers are too big for it.
IMO ~10" is the lower limit for a touch display DSO for both touch usability and the ability to have menus up without hiding the working part of the screen.
Yet if this is managed well the menus only stay up for a user defined period and can be hidden by a touch on a vacant area of the display.
To have further display management is also an advantage, that is do these side menus cover or compress the working part of the display and is this behaviour user definable.
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IMO ~10" is the lower limit for a touch display DSO for both touch usability and the ability to have menus up without hiding the working part of the screen.
Yet if this is managed well the menus only stay up for a user defined period and can be hidden by a touch on a vacant area of the display.
To have further display management is also an advantage, that is do these side menus cover or compress the working part of the display and is this behaviour user definable.
May we assume that all these attributes happen to be present in Siglent scopes? ::)
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IMO ~10" is the lower limit for a touch display DSO for both touch usability and the ability to have menus up without hiding the working part of the screen.
Yet if this is managed well the menus only stay up for a user defined period and can be hidden by a touch on a vacant area of the display.
To have further display management is also an advantage, that is do these side menus cover or compress the working part of the display and is this behaviour user definable.
May we assume that all these attributes happen to be present in Siglent scopes? ::)
Not all, the touch display models, certainly.
Now get some time in front of one to see how these features really work.
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May we assume that all these attributes happen to be present in Siglent scopes? ::)
Not all, the touch display models, certainly.
Now get some time in front of one to see how these features really work.
I might. Too bad that the 10" scopes (both from Siglent and Rigol) are so much more expensive than the DHO800 and 900 series. :-\
It seems clear enough that a 7" touch screen is pushing usability limits. Simply porting the software from the 10"-and-larger family members is probably not quite good enough. Rigol will have to add some functionality to optimize screen space, by hiding control elements either automatically or under user control.
Nevertheless, I would find it refreshing to read the occasional post from you which is not pure sales talk for Siglent. From a knowledgeable salesman, no doubt; but you always carefully choose your arguments from the list of pro-Siglent talking points. If you could voice a more balanced view occasionally, it would add weight to your opinion.
On the other hand -- the fiercer I see you arguing pro-Siglent, the more I know that you are nervous about Rigol's offering. So they must have something going for them...
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Facts are facts, entirely up to you how much you value them.
Or you could start a thread on displays and how various brands manage display usage/management.
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Facts are facts
But selectively presented facts are sales talk.
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I just got a chance to touch HDO924S. To me the screen is too tiny. I also don't like how they used screen real estate. I had a feeling that "there must be a button to make waveforms fullscreen". As of touchscreen experience, it was a bit awkward and controls were too small at times. Also I think it didn't always register my fingers reliably, or my fingers are too big for it.
IMO ~10" is the lower limit for a touch display DSO for both touch usability and the ability to have menus up without hiding the working part of the screen.
Yet if this is managed well the menus only stay up for a user defined period and can be hidden by a touch on a vacant area of the display.
To have further display management is also an advantage, that is do these side menus cover or compress the working part of the display and is this behaviour user definable.
Has anyone tried one of the styli sold for those of us with fat thumbs to use on touch-screen inputs on displays of this size?
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May we assume that all these attributes happen to be present in Siglent scopes? ::)
Not all, the touch display models, certainly.
Now get some time in front of one to see how these features really work.
I might. Too bad that the 10" scopes (both from Siglent and Rigol) are so much more expensive than the DHO800 and 900 series. :-\
It seems clear enough that a 7" touch screen is pushing usability limits. Simply porting the software from the 10"-and-larger family members is probably not quite good enough. Rigol will have to add some functionality to optimize screen space, by hiding control elements either automatically or under user control.
Nevertheless, I would find it refreshing to read the occasional post from you which is not pure sales talk for Siglent. From a knowledgeable salesman, no doubt; but you always carefully choose your arguments from the list of pro-Siglent talking points. If you could voice a more balanced view occasionally, it would add weight to your opinion.
On the other hand -- the fiercer I see you arguing pro-Siglent, the more I know that you are nervous about Rigol's offering. So they must have something going for them...
Can I chime in non Siglenty comment...
I have 8.5" Keysight 3000T. They implemented usable touch screen on it but it is not "Androidy" and is a little on the old school side. Buttons to press are large and I have no problems using it. OTOH it also still has physical buttons around the screen and plenty knobs that I also use. For instance I use only knob for cursors... Touch is too clumsy..
OTOH i have 12,1" screen scope and 10.2" scope (brands are irrelevant) and naturally 12" one is nicer.
I'm sure 15.6" would be even better.
If 7" screen on Rigols is good to use will depend highly how well it was implemented. And they might even be able to optimize it later..
My preference would be 10" and up, but money talks and I'm sure I would survive with 7" if I had to... Like we did for so many years with stuff primitive in comparison to even cheapest stuff from Rigol or Siglent today...
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I might. Too bad that the 10" scopes (both from Siglent and Rigol) are so much more expensive than the DHO800 and 900 series. :-\
It seems clear enough that a 7" touch screen is pushing usability limits...
ok this might sound like a bit silly question. But lets say (for argument's sake) you had an 804 and a 1074 in front of you. Would the larger 10" display module and touch usb connection interface be capable of getting pluged into the lower end 804? Or is it that fundamentally the screen is not compatible with the other one? (i mean electrically speaking).
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Facts are facts
But selectively presented facts are sales talk.
However the community thanks you for those you presented after a short while using the new Rigol DSO.
Yes they are not all the same and convenient/complete/functional usability is important to many of us as your short report indicates.
All brands do similar things differently so we need find which best suits our individual needs.
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ok this might sound like a bit silly question. But lets say (for argument's sake) you had an 804 and a 1074 in front of you. Would the larger 10" display module and touch usb connection interface be capable of getting pluged into the lower end 804? Or is it that fundamentally the screen is not compatible with the other one? (i mean electrically speaking).
I don't know whether they are exactly compatible. But I certainly think the DHO800 main board would in principle be capable of driving a suitable 10" display.
Do I think it's a promising project for a hobbyist to upgrade their own 800 mode to a larger screen? That certainly wouldn't be for me; too much of a "Frankenstein" hack...
Do I expect Rigol to come out with a 10" version of the 800 series? Not too soon. They certainly could, technically, and the larger display would only make it a tad more expensive. But I think they want to deliberately maintain the different positioning and pricing ot the 7" vs. 10" scopes: 7" is for the very price-conscious (hobby etc.) market; 10" and up is for "serious" users, and is where Rigol makes nice margins.
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They certainly could, technically, and the larger display would only make it a tad more expensive.
I see it the same way.
I already found that so glaring with the 1000/4000 scopes.
The 1000 is actually only missing the second ADC and the extended input panel.
Otherwise, the same components are used.
Only that the price difference is just about a factor of 3, I would feel pretty fooled as a DHO 4000 buyer.
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Will the DHO800 run on a plain 12V source like a cig socket in the car?
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Will the DHO800 run on a plain 12V source like a cig socket in the car?
Yes but for your own safety its better to not make a cig adapter -> USB C cable that outputs 12V without negotiation.
As mentioned previously in this thread you can blow up devices. Not to mention possible voltage spikes.
A suitable USBC PD car adapter that is safe to use can be had for <$30.
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IMO ~10" is the lower limit for a touch display DSO for both touch usability and the ability to have menus up without hiding the working part of the screen.
These little Rigols can have an external screen as big as you want. :-)
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Will the DHO800 run on a plain 12V source like a cig socket in the car?
I don't see why not.
Watch out though, in old cars the cig lighter might be connected directly to the alternator. Rev the engine and... :-BROKE
(I finally got to use that emoji!)
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Will the DHO800 run on a plain 12V source like a cig socket in the car?
Yes but for your own safety its better to not make a cig adapter -> USB C cable that outputs 12V without negotiation.
As mentioned previously in this thread you can blow up devices. Not to mention possible voltage spikes.
A suitable USBC PD car adapter that is safe to use can be had for <$30.
The first power supply shipped with the scope only have 2 wires positive and negative, this means it's possible to build a powerbank outputing 12.6V (3S pack 18650 or 21700 cells with BMS off course), and feeding the scope without the need of any kind of negotiation.
I wonder what's the minimum voltage the Scope runs. Anyone tried?
With a car, the regulator inside the alternator stabilize between 13.8V up to 14.8V depending on car make and model. The only risk is if the alternator regulator fails and then yes magic smoke.
First power supply shipped with DHO800:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1829608;image)
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Will the DHO800 run on a plain 12V source like a cig socket in the car?
It negotiates 15V @ 2.5A from the USB-C, so likely, no. You could use could use a 12V to USB-C adapter
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The RK3399 CPU is quite struggle.
So that may explain why things are really slowing down when using the protocol decoder.
I installed a Launcher and a Guesture software btw 8)
Then you can use split screen.
The RIGOL.SCOPE software is monitored by a daemon, If the SCOPE software crashes, it will automatically restart.
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I installed a Launcher and a Guesture software btw 8)
With ADB?
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I played a bit with the DHO804 and frequency generator and zooming on vertical is super buggy with cut out waveform and completely wrong voltage. You need to always change the horizontal time base in order for the signal to be displayed correctly.
Seems inexcusable to ship a product with this sort of bugs as this will be the first things you will test.
It is like they have a single software guy working on this and no test engines. Even in that case I do not see how such basic errors where not detected as zooming a signal both horizontal and vertical should be the first thing you test after any change.
Hardware seems excellent so I hope they will fix this soon. I seems to have version 1.00 maybe it is some sort of early release software.
I see comments about the RK3399 struggling. This is a very powerful SOC for an oscilloscope so what it is struggling is the software the is improperly written.
I find it decently responsive but have not tested the protocol decoders up to now. I prefer to use a computer based logic analyzer for that sort of work.
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I installed a Launcher and a Guesture software btw 8)
With ADB?
Of course.
But the ADB and SSH leave wide open also makes me wonder if someone can just hack in my scope and "rm -rf /*" all my scope files :palm:
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Will the DHO800 run on a plain 12V source like a cig socket in the car?
It negotiates 15V @ 2.5A from the USB-C, so likely, no. You could use could use a 12V to USB-C adapter
You forgot about the early samples which were shipped with the fixed 12V supply. The scope clearly can run from a 12V supply, but if the power supply offers USB PD negotiation, the scope negotiates 15V. 12V was available in the USB PD 1.0 standard, but is no longer supported in versions 2.0 and 3.x in my understanding.
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So maybe not ideal to run this from the car battery directly then. And I suspect those cheap 65w PD cig plugs adds lots of noise. But I also have a 4300mAh Lifepo4 S4 pack that gives me about 13,3 volts. That would be safe to use then. Would not expect more then an hour or so of use from it but that's ok.
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I played a bit with the DHO804 and frequency generator and zooming on vertical is super buggy with cut out waveform and completely wrong voltage. You need to always change the horizontal time base in order for the signal to be displayed correctly.
Yeah, that was shown in Daves video at 36:18, here: https://youtu.be/S8jrpCoZyx8?t=2155
Seems inexcusable to ship a product with this sort of bugs
You should send yours back immediately. ::)
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Yes but the general question still remains:
to test the scope actual performance characteristics across a variety of common and different types of power sources. To make sure that a poor quality of power does not adversely affect or detriment scope measurements.
So having some standardized set of tests (that uses a generally affordable and widely commonly available other test equipment). Makes sense. That user A can test with power source X and user B can test with power source Y, yet to be able to meaningfully compare the scope performance results. And across a variety of metrics or modes.
And we don't necessarily have to throw our hands in the air and give up just because theres a lot of random chinese junk flooded in the market.
For example, the 2 known manufacturer provided power bricks might be a starting point. However we could then also consider other **quality** and commonly available (reputable) power banks, or otherwise step-down voltage converters (as some high quality and known electronic module, to then buffer / plug into the car, or otherwise step-down from higher battery voltages).
The point being if you can step down voltage. Then the input power source can just be some cell pack which is smoothly and reliably not introducing noise itself... rather you are only having to worry about the step-down regulator for contributing noise. And to have it efficient enough (so switching probably). To then be efficient not to unduly drain the cell pack too quickly above the already astronomical idle power draw of this scope.
Of course we can also consider popular and readily available brands like Anker or Apple, or such other ones. For their USB-c power banks too. But those doesn't converge on a common homebrew solution (the internals). So is less widely applicable in that respect to only be of value to those other users who happened to pick the same exact retail product.
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to test the scope actual performance characteristics across a variety of common and different types of power sources. To make sure that a poor quality of power does not adversely affect or detriment scope measurements.
It's 36W from a switching power supply so I suspect it's already dealing with a lot of ripple, etc. It must have some fancy filtering and power conditioning on the analog area of the PCB or it wouldn't work at all.
So... I suspect it will work well with just about anything.
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So maybe not ideal to run this from the car battery directly then.
You could try looking at the output of your socket with the engine switched off (I assume you wouldn't try to use it with the engine running)
(Use an oscilloscope, not a multimeter... :) )
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You forgot about the early samples which were shipped with the fixed 12V supply. The scope clearly can run from a 12V supply, but if the power supply offers USB PD negotiation, the scope negotiates 15V. 12V was available in the USB PD 1.0 standard, but is no longer supported in versions 2.0 and 3.x in my understanding.
My understanding is the PD spec still supports the 12V profile as optional. So charger manufacturers can choose to implement it or not. The minimum that must be supported are 5V/9V/15V/20V to be considered PD compliant, with PD 3.1 adding support for 24V/36V/48V.
I just got a new 65W PD charger last week that still supports 12V/3A. So they're still plentiful I think, you just need to check specs before you buy if you need 12V support.
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Just a few questions:
Did I understand right that the waveform update rate was down to 1000/sec with only one channel enabled at 50 ns/s with full mem depth ? And the screen actually even showed a lower than 1M mem depth? And it went up only when Dave lowered the mem. depth?
How is the update rate with two channels enabled?
Because the 1104x-e has many times of that with full mem depth and two channels enabled in the same group.
Also interesting weteher it is possible to have a zoom in view on the vertical scale without changing the vertical scale, so getting the getting the full height of the signal?
So to ansver my question after watching Daves video again.
With a 10 mHz signal the scope only gets the advertised 27000/sec display waveform update rate if the mem depth is set at 250 !! points, which seems to be even lower than the 1Megpoints the scope has with all channels active.
When it goes to 650 points mem. depth, the update rate slows down to 1000/s (50ns/d)
As Dave edited in the 1104x-E, with 17000/s I have to add that it is wrong, as the max of it with single chanel active with 14Megpoints is around 107000/20000 dots/vector mode and with even two channels active it never goes below 3000 but mostly it stays above 6000/sec.
With a single channel active it mostly stays above 10000.
So the 1104x-e has at least 10X the displaywaveform update rate it seems, but if we go down to a few hundred points mem depth it possibly goes much higher, the official max number is 100000 with whatever setting.
So either the Rigol keeps those numbers with more mem. depth, and more channels active, but even than it is still much slower than the advertised value, or if it goes still lower, than that is a bit atrocious.
Edit: OK I see I forgot about Dave turning on everything on the Rigol which bogs it down to about 2500/sec with 1000 points mem. depth. Not tested on max. mem depth it seems.
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My understanding is the PD spec still supports the 12V profile as optional. So charger manufacturers can choose to implement it or not. The minimum that must be supported are 5V/9V/15V/20V to be considered PD compliant, with PD 3.1 adding support for 24V/36V/48V.
Yes, it's obvious why it's 15V nominal.
I don't think there's anything on the PCB that needs anywhere near that voltage. They must be regulating it down as a first step.
We know 12V works, so what's the limit? Somebody needs to hook up an oscilloscope to the internal rails and gradually bring down the input voltage to see where it fails.
nb. The current will probably go up as well so we need to look at component temperatures in the power area as the voltage drops. It's not an easy test to do - maybe one for Dave?
It might even be that it's happier with 16V than 15V, but 15V is the closest widely supported voltage in the PD spec.
PS: How many amps will that input connector take?
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What i'm actually interested in would be some step-down switching regulator module. That took an input up to 22v and then brought it down to a reliable and stable +15v (or like whatever you say Fungus, maybe 16v). However the thing of it is that Makita LXT 18v battery packs start at about 22v fully charged state. And then the voltage degrades to about 14-15v when they are almost empty. Or at 10% charge state whatever.
So this fits well with the nominal input voltage of 12-15v for this scope. However the other thing that this module, or strap around circuitry needs to do is A/B power switching failover. So that when battery pack A dies, and falls below threshold voltage. Then the circuit will seamlessly switch over to battery pack B. (but only if present, and detected as power good input rail).
Now switching over function might not be as important for others. Or (for example) powering from a vehicle +12v. However it would be quite nice feature I believe, and mostly dues to the high idle power consumption of 35w. Which is otherwise probably not needed.
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There are plenty of USB-C 15V power packs and automotive supplies designed for 15V laptops.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166056322833 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/166056322833)
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to test the scope actual performance characteristics across a variety of common and different types of power sources. To make sure that a poor quality of power does not adversely affect or detriment scope measurements.
I think this is a relevant point. I am wondering why Rigol switched from the fixed 12V supply to the proper, PD-enabled Lenovo supply -- which must cost them extra money.
The 12V supply was apparently not planned as a stop-gap solution for early shipments only. It was meant to be the regular power supply shipped with the scope: It is described in the manual, and the scope's backpanel has a special hole next to the USB-C connector which accepts a little coding pin molded onto the cheapo 12V supply's "USB-C" plug. (To prevent users from killing other USB-C devices with that pseudo-USB-C power supply.)
So why did they swap it for the Lenovo supply? I'd guess that either the 12V thing did not meet international electrical safety standards, hence was not suitable for export. Or its output voltage has such nasty spikes that the scope's S/N suffers -- in which case some other power supplies might create problems too. I'd be curious to learn the reason for the late power supply swap!
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to test the scope actual performance characteristics across a variety of common and different types of power sources. To make sure that a poor quality of power does not adversely affect or detriment scope measurements.
I think this is a relevant point. I am wondering why Rigol switched from the fixed 12V supply to the proper, PD-enabled Lenovo supply -- which must cost them extra money.
The 12V supply was apparently not planned as a stop-gap solution for early shipments only. It was meant to be the regular power supply shipped with the scope: It is described in the manual, and the scope's backpanel has a special hole next to the USB-C connector which accepts a little coding pin molded onto the cheapo 12V supply's "USB-C" plug. (To prevent users from killing other USB-C devices with that pseudo-USB-C power supply.)
So why did they swap it for the Lenovo supply? I'd guess that either the 12V thing did not meet international electrical safety standards, hence was not suitable for export. Or its output voltage has such nasty spikes that the scope's S/N suffers -- in which case some other power supplies might create problems too. I'd be curious to learn the reason for the late power supply swap!
There were some reports that scope had visible noise in traces and PSU was simply spraying enough EMC (radiated and conducted) that it affected measurements. There was few videos about that. EU EMC compliance could have been the factor too but that PSU was too cheap and degraded otherwise good scope performance.
So Rigol, being honest company, had to do something. And they did. They might use Lenovo as intermediate measure until they source/make cheaper alternative that is of adequate quality.. Anyway, classy move on their side..
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and can i just say: that this was not the 1st time i have seen a product coming from china with a +12v fixed (2-wire) over usb-c without any usb-compliant power negotiation. There was also some raspberry-pi type of SBC equivalent (or other such boxes, like android tv box) that supplied such solution. Perhaps 1 year ago. And it's a thoroughly abhorrent practice (in terms of damaging people's other devices), i would say even with the safety pin.
OTOH i do value and absolutely appreciate the general capability of supplying a simple fixed voltage input around 12-15v level. And whether via a usb-c connector or not. But what else would you prefer to use? I looked about, and it's like... well theres things like XT-60 which seems a bit large and bulky. So I got some XT-30 which looks about right size and quite nice. However you try getting an XT-30 with a locking clip and proper panel mount male and female versions (that have screw holes etc...) And you will be looking for a very long time. Or they will cost too much. Or they will be difficult to order economically etc.
So then you look for other dc power connectors that are locking. With some sorts of locking clip. And this is where GX-* aviation connectors are just... less convenient (and more physically bulky). Because those retaining collars screw on rather than click. So that's not as nice. And while mini XLR does click and lock nicely, OTOH it's also similarly bulky like the aviation connector. And also not specc'd properly for DC power like the XT-30 is.
So I am still scratching my head a bit here, if not usb-c, and not XT-30, then for a simple DC power connector that is actually nice to use. And you know rugged / durable / cannot be damaged so easily as some barrel jack. And does not have polarity ambiguity issue.
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Just got an email from Rigol NA that they are shipping my DHO804. I wasn't expecting it so soon. I'm looking forward to it because I sold my old scope already and I've got (hobby) work stacking up on the bench.
I previously owned a Rigol DS1202Z-E (200Mhz, 2-channel). The DS1202Z-E had a sluggish UI and the screen update rate in XY mode was slower than a holiday picture slide show. I'm hoping these are not issues in the DHO8xx series. I plan on backing up the flash and upgrading the unit first thing. I would not have bought this unit if it were not for the hack.
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The DS1202Z-E screen update rate in XY mode was slower than a holiday picture slide show.
That's usually the operator's fault for picking the wrong memory size.
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The DS1202Z-E screen update rate in XY mode was slower than a holiday picture slide show.
That's usually the operator's fault for picking the wrong memory size.
You could work for Apple. Any problem is always customer's fault :)
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For use with the DHO900 (and hopefully the DHO800 after a few mods?) I've created a new v3.1 of the 16-channel LA clone board that is cheaper to make and easier to hand-solder:
https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/ (https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/)
Many thanks for that! I have a loosely related question, but relevant to a DIY logic probe:
While looking at the PCB and at a picture of the DHO900 front, it seems that the connector on the scope's front has a different shroud. The notch which keys the plug direction seems to be off-center on the DHO900? Is there an off-the-shelf IDC connector which is styled that way, or do people use a regular IDC connector and file off the centered tab? (Or did I simply look crosseyed? ::))
EDIT: Hmm, people clearly seem to use regular IDC connectors with the MSO5000. But the notch in this photo does look off-center, doesn't it? (Aligned with pins 13 and 14 in a row of 25 total.) https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DHO914S.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DHO914S.html)
EDIT²: Ok, it seems to be a regular connector with the notch in the center. Must be just a weird distortion in the photo; so this is a non-issue.
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You could work for Apple. Any problem is always customer's fault :)
It also happens on Android: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-xy-mode-update-rate/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-xy-mode-update-rate/) :box:
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My understanding is the PD spec still supports the 12V profile as optional. So charger manufacturers can choose to implement it or not. The minimum that must be supported are 5V/9V/15V/20V to be considered PD compliant, with PD 3.1 adding support for 24V/36V/48V.
I just got a new 65W PD charger last week that still supports 12V/3A. So they're still plentiful I think, you just need to check specs before you buy if you need 12V support.
Quite a number of USB-C chargers also support PPD, which basically allows sink to request just about any voltage and current. PPD is often used by modern phones and tablets for ultra-fast charging, so there are quite a lot of them in the 65 W range on a market.
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You could work for Apple. Any problem is always customer's fault :)
It also happens on Android: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-xy-mode-update-rate/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-xy-mode-update-rate/) :box:
Oh that's a good thing Siglent DSO's don't run the Android OS. :phew:
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My DHO804 showed up today.
First thoughts mirror Dave's:
It's small
It smells bad
Fan is too loud, but only somewhat annoying
It takes forever to boot
Touchscreen is cool
XY works great (fast refresh) - splitscreen is cool
"Quick" button for screenshots is brilliant
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any issues with the hack yet? I'm thinking about grabbing the 804 and doing the hack but I thought I saw someone talking about noise afterwards (cant find it now) any issues at all? should I get a 9xx model and start there VS the 8xx, but I think the 9xx is just black VS the white color or am I wrong?
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I think the 9xx is just black VS the white color or am I wrong?
The 9xx includes:
- logic analyzer connection (but not the probe itself)
- AWG hardware (for 9xxS models only)
- 350MHz probes vs 150MHz (for 924/924S models only)
- black (which many people seem to really dislike for some reason)
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any issues with the hack yet? I'm thinking about grabbing the 804 and doing the hack but I thought I saw someone talking about noise afterwards (cant find it now) any issues at all? should I get a 9xx model and start there VS the 8xx, but I think the 9xx is just black VS the white color or am I wrong?
Read: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/)
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any issues with the hack yet? I'm thinking about grabbing the 804 and doing the hack but I thought I saw someone talking about noise afterwards (cant find it now) any issues at all? should I get a 9xx model and start there VS the 8xx, but I think the 9xx is just black VS the white color or am I wrong?
Read: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/)
i did read that thread, so the hack is all good without issues then? safe to go ahead? that was what i was mainly afraid of i still have a hantek im trying to get going from bad firmware i dont want to deal with that again lol. adb is easy so flashing it should not be any issue.
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Very few people have this scope in their hands yet so nothing is certain yet.
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safe to go ahead? that was what i was mainly afraid of i still have a hantek im trying to get going from bad firmware i dont want to deal with that again lol. adb is easy so flashing it should not be any issue.
Stash the sdcard (or make a backup image of it). Then no matter what goes wrong, pop the original sdcard back in and it's like new.
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For use with the DHO900 (and hopefully the DHO800 after a few mods?) I've created a new v3.1 of the 16-channel LA clone board that is cheaper to make and easier to hand-solder:
https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/ (https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/)
make that clone probe, and then just add 25x2 2.54mm connector on the DHO800 PCB? is it that simple?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1829665;image)
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make that clone probe, and then just add 25x2 2.54mm connector on the DHO800 PCB? is it that simple?
No, unfortunately not quite. The consensus seems to be that you also need to populate the two missing RAM chips, and maybe some other components? And cut open the front panel, of course.
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Populating the two dram chips is not that dangerous (the drams are cheap, the soldering bgas is not that difficult, moreover you can remove the drams after an unsuccessful soldering easily) compared to the cutting the opening in the front panel >:D
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cut front panel is easy, soldering bga is risky for me... so i'll leave it like that.. better not having LA than loosing the whole DHO...
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Yes. It also seems the MSO inputs go to the FPGA directly. If you let a wire with a decent amount of voltage touch the pins of the MSO input, you'll likely fry the FPGA.
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Yes. It also seems the MSO inputs go to the FPGA directly. If you let a wire with a decent amount of voltage touch the pins of the MSO input, you'll likely fry the FPGA.
Makes you wonder how/if they pass EMC ESD immunity tests...
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sounds kindda awful then! ...not to put the buffer chips inside of the main case chassis. for those better input protection
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Should I get a 9xx model and start there
HDO1074...
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Yes. It also seems the MSO inputs go to the FPGA directly. If you let a wire with a decent amount of voltage touch the pins of the MSO input, you'll likely fry the FPGA.
Makes you wonder how/if they pass EMC ESD immunity tests...
Have a probe connected so the contacts are isolated is one way. I'm also not sure whether zapping contacts is part of ESD testing as you are not supposed to touch these with your fingers. For testing signals that are supposed to be connected, you typically perform surge tests. But I doubt the MSO input would survice such a test.
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it would make some sense to install a plastic plug cover onto the idc connector when not in use
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Is there a simple commercially-available cover that will fit that connector?
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a bit more then he wants to spend right now otherwise would be a possibility. looking to spend no more then around 500 or so on this one. he is new to this and still learning and i loaned him one of my siglents for now but he wants one for his home and office he can take back and forth and for the money these look awesome on paper i wish there was more info on the hack and longer term issues with these but they are still to new
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Is there a simple commercially-available cover that will fit that connector?
An IDC ribbon cable connector with no cable. Maybe with some contacts remove to reduce insertion force, and a band through the cable path to allow removal
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It's really buggy in the stop mode. Waveform frequently disappears all the way through. It's hard to move and analyze signal.
Or is my scope broken?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uaGCYCSng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uaGCYCSng)
PS: I've captured the most rough case.
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Makes you wonder how/if they pass EMC ESD immunity tests...
AFAIK they don't have to (at least in the EU). They would almost certainly apply EN 61326-2-1 ("sensitive test and measurement equipment") which mostly exempts test ports from immunity requirements. You'd still have to test ESD on connector shields (for example on BNC connectors) but not on inner pins.
Still, I don't exactly love this. A big unprotected IDC header on the front of a device aimed at education and hobby users, what could possibly go wrong?
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it cannot be too hard to cut a piece of plastic and make a plug yourself. or use a found object. or to take a spare idc lying about and shove a hot glue gun in to it. then peel out the resulting 'vaguely rectangular' mess. or do the same with a neutral cure silicone sealant. or perhaps something else with just spacers or gaps being hollowed out. but to grab into the internal corners of the idc on the scope.
any 1 of numerous ways and you can fashion something appropriate. so long as it does not adversely accumulate static charges / discharges into the pins on the scope side. or otherwise cause something undesirable effect.
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cut front panel is easy, soldering bga is risky for me... so i'll leave it like that.. better not having LA than loosing the whole DHO...
I can't really imagine that there could be people who, in order to "save" 200 bucks(DHO804-->DHO914), would tinker with their scope by cutting holes in the case and soldering around the circuit board.
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it cannot be too hard to cut a piece of plastic and make a plug yourself. or use a found object.
This is 2023, use a 3D printer!
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cut front panel is easy, soldering bga is risky for me... so i'll leave it like that.. better not having LA than loosing the whole DHO...
I can't really imagine that there could be people who, in order to "save" 200 bucks(DHO804-->DHO914), would tinker with their scope by cutting holes in the case and soldering around the circuit board.
People do all kinds of things...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Veobksi3pI&t=649s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Veobksi3pI&t=649s)
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it cannot be too hard to cut a piece of plastic and make a plug yourself. or use a found object.
This is 2023, use a 3D printer!
I asked for a simple commercially-available part, since I don't own a 3D printer.
The simple connector suggestion is reasonable.
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Rigol DHO804 DHO800 random lines BUG
Frequency 188.1 kHz, increasing the time scale until random lines appear in the waveform window. Further timebase increase leads to waveform disappearance.
Firmware version 1.00. Roll mode off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA5_nzHFJlM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA5_nzHFJlM)
UPDATE: I can't reproduce this bug anymore. Maybe it was some fault due to extensive multiple hour testing, or simply I've should press the "Default" button, but now I don't know how to make it.
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@Serg65536:
Interesting and important videos - I think it would be better to place them in a new thread, perhaps a "Rigol DHO Bugs(?)" titled one.
Here they will get lost...
People do all kinds of things...
OMG... :palm:
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Excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between the DHO800 and the MSO5000 series ? Other than bandwidth.
I will be needing a built in logic analyzer. A signal generator would be handy too. Will Rigol be making a DSO800 with a LA ?
Thanks
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Excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between the DHO800 and the MSO5000 series ?
Read and compare their specs, to be found on the rigol website.
Will Rigol be making a DSO800 with a LA ?
They already did - DHO900 series.
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Excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between the DHO800 and the MSO5000 series ? Other than bandwidth.
They're completely different beasts. Too many differences to list here.
Will Rigol be making a DSO800 with a LA ?
They already did: https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho900/ (https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho900/)
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I received my unit on Friday and mounted it on a cheap Amazon arm. I really like it. Small and easy to move around as I work.
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I received my unit on Friday and mounted it on a cheap Amazon arm. I really like it. Small and easy to move around as I work.
Nice, looks great.
What mount did you use?
Best,
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I received my unit on Friday and mounted it on a cheap Amazon arm. I really like it. Small and easy to move around as I work.
That's cool! Adding VESA mounts on the back is the smartest thing I've seen from Rigol.
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It's really buggy in the stop mode. Waveform frequently disappears all the way through. It's hard to move and analyze signal.
Rigol DHO804 DHO800 random lines BUG
Frequency 188.1 kHz, increasing the time scale until random lines appear in the waveform window. Further timebase increase leads to waveform disappearance.
Firmware version 1.00. Roll mode off.
Thanks for finding and publishing these. I agree with Martin72 that these posts should be moved to a separate new thread like "Rigol DHO Bugs(?)" to make sure they don't get lost in the noise. I will ping the moderators and suggest that they move the posts, OK?
For some other scopes we have/had "bug list" threads where the first thread contains a loist of known as well as fixed bugs. Maintaining it is ongoing work for the original poster though -- if you want to do this, many thanks in advance!
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I can't really imagine that there could be people who, in order to "save" 200 bucks(DHO804-->DHO914), would tinker with their scope by cutting holes in the case and soldering around the circuit board.
Wouldn't be for me either. With the DHO800/900 series, the only "hack" worth doing is the bandwidth upgrade from DHO804 to 814, in my opinion. With the DHO900 models, you get actual hardware upgrades for every increment in price, and I think the pricing is reasonable:
- Logic analyzer port $100 (all DHO900 models)
- Signal generator $100 (DHO9xxS models)
- Four 350 MHz probes and more bandwidth, although with marginal sampling rate, $100 (DHO924 model)
The only nuisance is that there is no DHO904 model to start with. Hence if one is interested in any of the 9xx features, one actually has to pay an additional $100 (over the 804) for the 125 MHz bandwidth and can't apply any hack...
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Rigol DHO804 DHO800 random lines BUG
Frequency 188.1 kHz, increasing the time scale until random lines appear in the waveform window. Further timebase increase leads to waveform disappearance.
Firmware version 1.00. Roll mode off.
:wtf: Can't beta testing detect this basic thing? :palm: :palm: :palm: What type of quality control do these guys have in place?
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Rigol DHO804 DHO800 random lines BUG
Frequency 188.1 kHz, increasing the time scale until random lines appear in the waveform window. Further timebase increase leads to waveform disappearance.
Firmware version 1.00. Roll mode off.
The random lines exceeding the normal range is indeed odd. It happens in a range where on would normally expect aliasing to start (e.g. 190 kHz signal and 250 kSPS) - still there should be no higher values / amplitudes. This may be an artifact of the reconstruction filter.
With the even lower sampling rates it looks like there is no trigger - like trying to trigger from the digitized signal (which can be a good thing and is prised by some of the better scopes as a good feature). I don't mind not getting a aliased signal. Ideally there would be a warning if too much of the signal is suppressed by averaging / downsampling. Still this would be a feature I have not yet seen on any scope.
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Rigol DHO804 DHO800 random lines BUG
Frequency 188.1 kHz, increasing the time scale until random lines appear in the waveform window. Further timebase increase leads to waveform disappearance.
Firmware version 1.00. Roll mode off.
:wtf: Can't beta testing detect this basic thing? :palm: :palm: :palm: What type of quality control do these guys have in place?
I warned people that Rigol released alpha stage software. First adopters are beta testers. Just keep reporting as much as you can so it gets fixed, nothing else to do. But hey, when R&S released RTB2000 it was not much better.
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:wtf: Can't beta testing detect this basic thing? :palm: :palm: :palm: What type of quality control do these guys have in place?
They might have approached it as "Hey, it's all proven out in the DHO1000 and 4000, so we can go light on the testing"... ::)
Given the fact that it is derived from the larger DHO models, I wonder where those errors crept in. The FPGA is the main difference from the DHO1000 I believe, while the DAC and the microprocessor/SOC are the same? Seems conceivable that differences in the FPGA data processing are causing the bugs.
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I warned people that Rigol released alpha stage software. First adopters are beta testers. Just keep reporting as much as you can so it gets fixed, nothing else to do. But hey, when R&S released RTB2000 it was not much better.
The DHO1000 has had recent firmware updates that fix (among other things):
- Truncation problem of enlarged waveform after stopping
- Data abnormality at the end of the high-resolution mode waveform
So... maybe these bugs are already fixed internally and they just need releasing for the 800/900.
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The DHO1000 has had recent firmware updates that fix (among other things):
- Truncation problem of enlarged waveform after stopping
- Data abnormality at the end of the high-resolution mode waveform
So... maybe these bugs are already fixed internally and they just need releasing for the 800/900.
"Recent" firmware updates? So it took them about a year to notice and fix these in the DHO1000? Not sure whether I find that reassuring...
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"Recent" firmware updates? So it took them about a year to notice and fix these in the DHO1000? Not sure whether I find that reassuring...
Haters gonna hate.
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"Recent" firmware updates? So it took them about a year to notice and fix these in the DHO1000? Not sure whether I find that reassuring...
Haters gonna hate.
Come on, man. I have been a happy DS1054Z user for 8 years or so, and have expressed a keen interest in upgrading to the DHO900 series in this and another thread. Certainly not a Rigol hater...
What is your take on Rigol's responsiveness in addressing bugs? If those bugs fixed "recently" in the DHO1000 are indeed the pretty glaring ones described by Serg65536, are you impressed?
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cut front panel is easy, soldering bga is risky for me... so i'll leave it like that.. better not having LA than loosing the whole DHO...
I can't really imagine that there could be people who, in order to "save" 200 bucks(DHO804-->DHO914), would tinker with their scope by cutting holes in the case and soldering around the circuit board.
Honestly, I don't think it's that difficult. The front panel is covered by a label, you make a nice cover for it from PC, paper or carbon fiber or whatever, and then your plastic cutting skills won't even show.
I can't really imagine that there could be people who, in order to "save" 200 bucks(DHO804-->DHO914), would tinker with their scope by cutting holes in the case and soldering around the circuit board.
Wouldn't be for me either. With the DHO800/900 series, the only "hack" worth doing is the bandwidth upgrade from DHO804 to 814, in my opinion. With the DHO900 models, you get actual hardware upgrades for every increment in price, and I think the pricing is reasonable:
- Logic analyzer port $100 (all DHO900 models)
- Signal generator $100 (DHO9xxS models)
- Four 350 MHz probes and more bandwidth, although with marginal sampling rate, $100 (DHO924 model)
The only nuisance is that there is no DHO904 model to start with. Hence if one is interested in any of the 9xx features, one actually has to pay an additional $100 (over the 804) for the 125 MHz bandwidth and can't apply any hack...
I really don't think the bigger models are worth it. There are better models at the same price, or just slightly above. The price all adds up. Plus this thing is tiny, I would much rather have a bigger scope with bigger screen and more buttons and features. You know the ones that you only need few times, but if you don't have it...
BTW did we figure it out already if the 12 bitis just a marketing gimmick or actually useful on this scope?
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I really don't think the bigger models are worth it. There are better models at the same price, or just slightly above. The price all adds up.
Which competing model(s) with logic analyser and /or signal generator would you consider?
Plus this thing is tiny, I would much rather have a bigger scope with bigger screen and more buttons and features.
The portability is a plus for me; I do travel with the scope occasionally. For use at home I would add an external touch screen, 14" or so, if I find the display too small. I have not run into missing features with my DS1xx4 over the years, hence am not concerned on the front. (But might not know what I am missing...)
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I (and others) have been wondering about why the DHO900 series have these two additional RAM chips attached to the Zynq while a single one should suffice for 16 digital channels.
The answer may be rather simple: The second memory chip provides the sample memory for the optional AWG module! Since the AWG module only contains the hardware from the DAC to the signal output, all the digital stuff has got to be happening inside the Zynq, including storage of the waveforms (and I'm pretty sure that basically all the waveforms, including the "standard" ones are just "played back" from memory as if they were arbitraries -- this should consume the least hardware inside the FPGA).
It's probably fast enough -- for the user not to notice any delay -- to calculate the "wavetables" in the ARM section of the Zynq and store them to RAM, maybe even with modulation, sweep and what not (there's no external modulation option which simplifies things a lot). We may be certain of this if we observe a short signal interruption every time a wavefrom parameter is changed, like frequency or so...
I'm already impatiently wating for the first reports on the built-in AWG and also the Bode plot function, especially regarding its speed (or lack thereof... ;) ).
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cut front panel is easy, soldering bga is risky for me... so i'll leave it like that.. better not having LA than loosing the whole DHO...
I can't really imagine that there could be people who, in order to "save" 200 bucks(DHO804-->DHO914), would tinker with their scope by cutting holes in the case and soldering around the circuit board.
Yeah I just ordered the DHO914S it will already be buggy enough while you are not messing with it.
Cheap and has a nice HDMI out and web interface good enough for me :)
Scopes with those bigger screens just put more on it in smaller font like MXO4, my eyes can't handle that!
So the small screen is good since I will not use it much anyway.
This may be the last scope for me before they all go 4k on us and I'm doomed ;) (no more scaling up)
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What is your take on Rigol's responsiveness in addressing bugs? If those bugs fixed "recently" in the DHO1000 are indeed the pretty glaring ones described by Serg65536, are you impressed?
I don't know how "glaring" they are. Dave didn't see them and neither did many, many other people.
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Rigol EU have a firmware dated "2023-08-24". I don't know if that fixes anything.
What version are the latest 'scopes being supplied with?
https://www.rigol.eu/SUPPORTS/software-firmware-download.html (https://www.rigol.eu/SUPPORTS/software-firmware-download.html)
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It's really buggy in the stop mode. Waveform frequently disappears all the way through. It's hard to move and analyze signal.
What firmware version do you have?
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Dumb question. Do you think the arbitrary waveform generator on the DHO914S is worth the extra money charged. The price difference is about 300€ vs the DHO804 where I live. I am comparing these two models because of the hackability. I don't currently own an AWG only a simple old tone generator which is not having the best output waveform fidelity.
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I would say no.
Almost any external (current) AWG is superior to a built-in one.
Which I think is a shame:
Rigol has the useful Bode Plot function only on models with internal AWG, an external one is not supported.
If you do not need this function, then you can safely go to the 800 model and get a new external AWG.
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<SNIP>
What version are the latest 'scopes being supplied with?
<SNIP>
My DHO804 (bought new from Rigol N.A.) showed up with firmware version 00.01.00
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It's really buggy in the stop mode. Waveform frequently disappears all the way through. It's hard to move and analyze signal.
What firmware version do you have?
Serg mention it in his post 1.00 which matches the latest 23-08-2023.
Firmware version 1.00 . // https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5088133/#msg5088133 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5088133/#msg5088133)
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Has anyone tried the PC software for it?
When you take a measurement, does it appear in the software immediately or is there a lag like with the 1054Z?
Does the software mirror the control settings on the scope or do you have to change the settings in the software too like on the 1054Z?
Thanks
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Rigol DHO804 DHO800 random lines BUG
Frequency 188.1 kHz, increasing the time scale until random lines appear in the waveform window. Further timebase increase leads to waveform disappearance.
Firmware version 1.00. Roll mode off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA5_nzHFJlM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA5_nzHFJlM)
I could not reproduce.
And I have created a new thread here for bugs: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-oscilloscope-bug-reports-firmware/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-oscilloscope-bug-reports-firmware/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3FhAhxet7s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3FhAhxet7s)
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Dumb question. Do you think the arbitrary waveform generator on the DHO914S is worth the extra money charged. The price difference is about 300€ vs the DHO804 where I live. I am comparing these two models because of the hackability. I don't currently own an AWG only a simple old tone generator which is not having the best output waveform fidelity.
External signal generators are relatively affordable. For 400 eur you already get a decent one. I asked and Siglent with the bode plot option supports external AWGs. This is important for me. I patiently wait for Siglent's upcoming 1000 HD series.
PS: I go through the same thinking process now.
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What firmware version do you have?
Serg mention it in his post 1.00 which matches the latest 23-08-2023.
There's two more digits in the number, eg. 1.00.19
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What firmware version do you have?
Serg mention it in his post 1.00 which matches the latest 23-08-2023.
There's two more digits in the number, eg. 1.00.19
Its the Latest V00.01.00 from 23-08-2023, there is no other Firmware for the DHO800 series with 1.00 as per se, otherwise, Serg would have emphasized that in his post #1233
https://www.rigol.eu/SUPPORTS/software-firmware-download_1.html (https://www.rigol.eu/SUPPORTS/software-firmware-download_1.html)
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hi,
Sorry for stupid question, but can Rigol DHO series 800 show/display laser rf signal correctly tike in example photo?
this thing is kind a challenge for some of digital oscilloscopes...
Thanks
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Hi,
At the moment, only a few members have a DHO and I doubt that any of them have looked at an eyepattern signal.
But maybe I'm wrong. ;)
I imagine the display is difficult, after all, with a laser pickup for a CD player, for example, you want to see how the fokus is.
An interesting question, let's see if I can recreate this.
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The easy way to reproduce the bug. Rigol DHO804 DHO800 oscilloscope waveform disappear in stop mode:
Press Default, set roll mode OFF, change trigger level to some reasonable level, 500 ms/div, 200 mV/div, do SINGLE waveform capture.
When capture is done, change horizontal to 1 s/div, enable Vernier (press horizontal nob), change horizontal to 1.2, 1.3 s/div.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmhTmmWaM50 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmhTmmWaM50)
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hi,
Sorry for stupid question, but can Rigol DHO series 800 show/display laser rf signal correctly tike in example photo?
this thing is kind a challenge for some of digital oscilloscopes...
Thanks
Now that you talk about it, I don't know about the DHO800 and even about the DSO I currently have since I never tried, but I couldn't get a proper eye pattern display in the Tek TDS210 I had years ago.
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hi,
Sorry for stupid question, but can Rigol DHO series 800 show/display laser rf signal correctly tike in example photo?
this thing is kind a challenge for some of digital oscilloscopes...
Thanks
Any modern scope with an intensity graded display/decent update rate should be able to handle this
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Waveform distortion in stop mode bug. Rigol DHO804 DHO800 oscilloscope
Capture any fast signal with a large memory, stop acquisition, increase the timebase until the artifacts are displayed.
https://youtu.be/WK8EEvo7V-Y (https://youtu.be/WK8EEvo7V-Y)
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I really don't think the bigger models are worth it. There are better models at the same price, or just slightly above. The price all adds up.
Which competing model(s) with logic analyser and /or signal generator would you consider?
Plus this thing is tiny, I would much rather have a bigger scope with bigger screen and more buttons and features.
The portability is a plus for me; I do travel with the scope occasionally. For use at home I would add an external touch screen, 14" or so, if I find the display too small. I have not run into missing features with my DS1xx4 over the years, hence am not concerned on the front. (But might not know what I am missing...)
Price wise, a bunch of Siglent 1000 and 2000 series, sometimes with external probes are cheaper. Consider, you have to buy the logic probe, than it's a 1200 EUR scope. And then there is the Rigol 5074 which is almost perfect for what I'm looking for in a scope (upgraded), sans the lack of 50 Ohm termination inside.
It's good that you like the form factor, they should make different products for different use cases.
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i see that rigol DS 1054z can view laser eye pattern. (attached photo - someone did it on youtube) so i just wondering how about DHO800 series, since i would like to get rid off my cheap hantek dso5102p that cant show laser rf.
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hi,
Sorry for stupid question, but can Rigol DHO series 800 show/display laser rf signal correctly tike in example photo?
this thing is kind a challenge for some of digital oscilloscopes...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1889290;image)
Yes, just turn on display persistence.
(and probably heat map as well)
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The easy way to reproduce the bug. Rigol DHO804 DHO800 oscilloscope waveform disappear in stop mode:
Press Default, set roll mode OFF, change trigger level to some reasonable level, 500 ms/div, 200 mV/div, do SINGLE waveform capture.
When capture is done, change horizontal to 1 s/div, enable Vernier (press horizontal nob), change horizontal to 1.2, 1.3 s/div.
I can confirm this bug on my DHO804 but not the first one with the 188.1kHz signal.
I tried the 188.1kHz and even around it with just some some slight alias at 187.5kHz. The 500ms and 1s when you tested at 188.1kHz you just did not waited enough to have the signal captured as Roll was OFF so you need to wait 10 second to see a signal on 1s/div.
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i see that rigol DS 1054z can view laser eye pattern. (attached photo - someone did it on youtube) so i just wondering how about DHO800 series, since i would like to get rid off my cheap hantek dso5102p that cant show laser rf.
from manual, hantek dso5102p has persistent view mode, you should be able to see your laser rf you've shown with that. if you dont have ability to understand your scope, no brand can give what you want if "reading mind" is one feature you are expecting. http://www.hantek.com/Product/5000P/DSO5000P_Manual.pdf (http://www.hantek.com/Product/5000P/DSO5000P_Manual.pdf)
as i said not all digital oscilloscopes can show laser rf... Just because there is persistence options it doesn't mean, that device can show laser rf correctly. :)
my question was if someone tested DHO 800 series in that kind of use case and can confirm that it can show laser rf correctly :)
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as i said not all digital oscilloscopes can show laser rf... Just because there is persistence options it doesn't mean, that device can show laser rf correctly. :)
It has fancy triggering options, too. :)
If you know what's needed then look for it in the manual.
my question was if someone tested DHO 800 series in that kind of use case and can confirm that it can show laser rf correctly :)
Hardly anybody has one yet so it's a bit early to ask that sort of question.
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It has fancy triggering options, too. :)
Funny enough, Rigol made sure it has exactly the same trigger types as DS1000Z. No more or less..
Which is not a bad news because DS1000Z had very advanced trigger set for it's price. Very good, in fact, it was it's best feature.
But new entry level scope brings nothing new to the table, as some might be inclined to believe.
For classic CD laser "eye" diagram it will depend on how persistence is implemented and what waveform refresh rate is. It will need to be tested to see. If refresh is good, trace should look close to CRT analog scope...
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change horizontal to 1.2, 1.3 s/div.
Well that explains why not many people have seen it. :popcorn:
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hi,
Sorry for stupid question, but can Rigol DHO series 800 show/display laser rf signal correctly tike in example photo?
this thing is kind a challenge for some of digital oscilloscopes...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1889290;image)
Yes, just turn on display persistence.
(and probably heat map as well)
no it doesn't work like that! -persistence will not give you almost any useful data that you can see on digital oscilloscopes where this function (digital phosphor) is implemented well!
in the Rigol DS1054-1102Z-E series, phosphorus simulation in some cases works even better than an analog oscilloscope (in fact, it’s amazing how they implemented this simulation so well without a separate DSP processor )
imitation of analog phosphorus using digital methods should be a priority in the design of all modern oscilloscopes - this data area contains much more information about the actual signal
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It has fancy triggering options, too. :)
Funny enough, Rigol made sure it has exactly the same trigger types as DS1000Z. No more or less..
Which is not a bad news because DS1000Z had very advanced trigger set for it's price. Very good, in fact, it was it's best feature.
But new entry level scope brings nothing new to the table, as some might be inclined to believe.
For classic CD laser "eye" diagram it will depend on how persistence is implemented and what waveform refresh rate is. It will need to be tested to see. If refresh is good, trace should look close to CRT analog scope...
I am waiting for someone to test the waveform update rate with full memory depth enabled. It was not really conclusive in Daves video. It seems to me to be much slower than the 11104x-e.
That is also interesting with the FFT, as Dave had the DHO800 showing it with only minimal memory enabled, while the 1104x-e with 7 or 14 Megpoints. So this was not a fair comparison of the screen speeds.
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well for waveform update rate, also nice to know if the dho1074 (or 4000 series) has a faster waveform updates. that can meaningfully show. and be demonstrated with something useful and practical situations. to see some justification if to spend more money to move up another tier.
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Rigol DHO800 vertical zoom bias limit while stopped. Bug, issue.
It's impossible to look at 12 bit details on signals captured outside bias range of lower scales. Even in the zoom mode.
https://youtu.be/ANvczYUG8iU (https://youtu.be/ANvczYUG8iU)
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Rigol DHO800 vertical zoom bias limit while stopped. Bug, issue.
It's impossible to look at 12 bit details on signals captured outside bias range of lower scales. Even in the zoom mode.
https://youtu.be/ANvczYUG8iU (https://youtu.be/ANvczYUG8iU)
The same setting is used for looking at the stored curve also to possibly start a new capture. So it makes some sense to limit the parameter. If not they would have to change to value back to the limit when in run mode, which could also be confusing to the user.
I would consider this a more minor bug, though it would help to allow more offset in the hold mode.
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Rigol DHO800 vertical zoom bias limit while stopped. Bug, issue.
It's impossible to look at 12 bit details on signals captured outside bias range of lower scales. Even in the zoom mode.
https://youtu.be/ANvczYUG8iU (https://youtu.be/ANvczYUG8iU)
The same setting is used for looking at the stored curve also to possibly start a new capture. So it makes some sense to limit the parameter. If not they would have to change to value back to the limit when in run mode, which could also be confusing to the user.
I would consider this a more minor bug, though it would help to allow more offset in the hold mode.
So how do you zoom in on that signal then? I'm rather new to scopes so just trying to learn.
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It is indeed tricky to get the signal. There is a chance that the math function would work, though it is an odd detour.
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Who had the great idea of posting a message inlining a 3MB 4000x3000 picture in it, and others quoteing it? ::)
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Who had the great idea of posting a message inlining a 3MB 4000x3000 picture in it, and others quoteing it? ::)
You are exaggerating, it's only 1.5 MBytes. ;)
Let's quickly write a few more posts so the offending quoted image moves to the prior page...
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https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5090119/#msg5090119 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5090119/#msg5090119)
2.9Mbytes :-DD
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https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5090119/#msg5090119 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5090119/#msg5090119)
2.9Mbytes :-DD
But the inline image a few posts down is only half the size. :-+
Making progress with those extra posts to push the large images back into oblivion...
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Who had the great idea of posting a message inlining a 3MB 4000x3000 picture in it, and others quoteing it? ::)
Quotes don't matter. That's what browser caches are for... :)
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So how do you zoom in on that signal then? I'm rather new to scopes so just trying to learn.
Don't pay any attention to these people, they're nitpicking this to death.
This 'scope zooms in far better than anything else out there unless you spend thousands of $$$.
(and even then it might not be better)
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This 'scope zooms in far better than anything else out there unless you spend thousands of $$$.
Have you already received yours and checked it against many different scopes or how do you know that for sure?
I know your enthusiasm/anticipation knows hardly any bounds, but wait and see before you lean out of the window like that. ;)
(Unfortunately it looks like we still have to wait...)
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Rigol DHO800 "vertical truncation is not updated while moving vertically" bug issue
Stop the acquisition, move waveform outside the screen, change horizontal position, or horizontal scale, or vertical scale. Move waveform back and it is truncated until you change horizontal position, or horizontal scale, or vertical scale again.
Firmware version 1.00
https://youtu.be/ZpYqQNpFG1g (https://youtu.be/ZpYqQNpFG1g)
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Have you already received yours and checked it against many different scopes or how do you know that for sure?
I'm going by Dave's video at 35:40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8&t=2158s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8&t=2158s)
And if we're honest, stopping a signal and THEN zooming in vertically by more than a click isn't something you'd really do on an 8 bit scope. You'd set the vertical scale first then push STOP. This 'scope brings whole new possibilities to the table.
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Have you already received yours and checked it against many different scopes or how do you know that for sure?
I'm going by Dave's video at 35:40:
And if we're honest, stopping a signal and THEN zooming in vertically by more than a click isn't something you'd really do on an 8 bit scope. You'd set the vertical scale first then push STOP.
Well, I've seen zooming in vertically working much better (with much higher magnifications) on other scopes (including using high-res on older Tektronix scopes) compared to what Dave shows on the Rigol and Siglent.
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Well, I've seen zooming in vertically working much better (with much higher magnifications) on other scopes (including using high-res on older Tektronix scopes) compared to what Dave shows on the Rigol and Siglent.
Yes, of course... but not at this price range.
The only reason I mentioned it is because these guys have at least one newbie worrying if there's something fundamentally wrong with these 'scopes compared to others.
How would you respond to that?
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Rigol DHO800 XY mode, 80 kHz / 20 kHz +-0.3 Hz
Good picture, nothing to complain about.
https://youtu.be/lo74GgZyxT0 (https://youtu.be/lo74GgZyxT0)
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Have you already received yours and checked it against many different scopes or how do you know that for sure?
I'm going by Dave's video at 35:40:
And if we're honest, stopping a signal and THEN zooming in vertically by more than a click isn't something you'd really do on an 8 bit scope. You'd set the vertical scale first then push STOP.
Well, I've seen zooming in vertically working much better (with much higher magnifications) on other scopes (including using high-res on older Tektronix scopes) compared to what Dave shows on the Rigol and Siglent.
Well that presumes Dave knows how to use the vertical Reference position settings found in Siglents.
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Rigol DHO800 XY mode, 80 kHz / 20 kHz +-0.3 Hz
Good picture, nothing to complain about.
https://youtu.be/lo74GgZyxT0 (https://youtu.be/lo74GgZyxT0)
And again, the windowing ability looks awesome. :)
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No way to change any specific XY mode options: all are inactive (the user manual confirms this).
Rigol DHO800 "Bad apple" oscilloscope music file
Frame rate is not sufficient, the picture is not clear, some objects are blurred. Firmware 1.00.
Please, leave a comment if you know how to improve the picture.
https://youtu.be/R88DA15Iv8A (https://youtu.be/R88DA15Iv8A)
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Rigol DHO800 vertical zoom bias limit while stopped. Bug, issue.
It's impossible to look at 12 bit details on signals captured outside bias range of lower scales. Even in the zoom mode.
https://youtu.be/ANvczYUG8iU (https://youtu.be/ANvczYUG8iU)
This should be related with the offset range described in the datasheet
[attach=1]
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No way to change any specific XY mode options: all are inactive (the user manual confirms this).
In addition to changing memory length settings (and sampling rates thereby) for the X and Y channels, you can activate the (unreleased) XY "Advanced Settings" options by entering into "Test Mode" (by pressing 3 times the Utility->About menu item). E.g., 625MSa/s, zero Persistence with small "Wave Width" and moderate "Wave Intensity" render dynamic XY plots that look great to me.
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No way to change any specific XY mode options: all are inactive (the user manual confirms this).
Rigol DHO800 "Bad apple" oscilloscope music file
Frame rate is not sufficient, the picture is not clear, some objects are blurred. Firmware 1.00.
Please, leave a comment if you know how to improve the picture.
Frame rate is usually directly related to memory size/sample rate. 100kpoints seems like a lot to me for this demo.
The file plays at 96kHz so you want a sample rate close to that (not 1.25GHz!)
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The file plays at 96kHz so you want a sample rate close to that (not 1.25GHz!)
*1.25 MSa/s
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hi,
Sorry for stupid question, but can Rigol DHO series 800 show/display laser rf signal correctly tike in example photo?
this thing is kind a challenge for some of digital oscilloscopes...
Thanks
Works for me. This is the RF signal from a 1x CD drive.
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This should be related with the offset range described in the datasheet
The offset range is for the input amplifier. In stop mode there's only software limitation. It should be removed to enable signal exploration, at least in the zoom mode. Otherwise, it's a 12-bit scope without an ability to see full resolution on most part of the captured signal.
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"Test Mode" (by pressing 3 times the Utility->About menu item)
Thank you very much. This option is very useful.
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Otherwise, it's a 12-bit scope without an ability to see full resolution on most part of the captured signal.
As a workaround (until is fixed) I use the math channels (with their convenient access through their icons at the bottom of the screen). Each allows its own vertical offset and scaling, to zoom on any part of the stopped (or live) waveform, allowing up to 4 separate vert. window/zoom views, if you use all 4.
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What can you choose as a signal source for FFT?
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On my 914S, with built-in AWG, I started looking at square waves with the FFT routine to try out different windows, etc.
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What can you choose as a signal source for FFT?
The Fine Manual says:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1893738;image)
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Just out of curiosity: Has anyone tried a WiFi dongle in the USB port of their new DHO yet? Would the Android OS by any chance include support for that?
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Just out of curiosity: Has anyone tried a WiFi dongle in the USB port of their new DHO yet? Would the Android OS by any chance include support for that?
Find all driver in system and you can found RT8188EU avaliable(and the only one)
[attachimg=1]
I already inserted a RT8188EU wifi adapter in the front usb panel, go to the Android system settings and you can search and config wifi now.
But it seems the front panel usb doesn't support hot swap, so you need to start osc up with the 8188eu plugged in.
By the way, the RIGOL.SCOPE app's "system info" view cannot display the wireless ip address, it seems it only recognize the LAN. Go to the Android system setting and check the wifi status and you'll get the correct IP address.[attach=1]
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Tried XY with this board, had to increase sample depth to get an better picture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sak-_kUkng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sak-_kUkng)
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With the first users now having their DHO 800 or 900 scopes on the bench, I would be keen to read your comments on usability of the small touch screen.
It seems that the settings display areas at the top and bottom take up a larger portion of the vertical screen space than on most other scopes, presumably to offer large-enough "targets" there for touch operation. Does the remaining display area feel large enough for your taste? On the other hand, are the touch buttons large enough for comfortable operation?
I am considering to get one of these units and complement it with a 14" touch screen when operating it on the bench. According to Dave's observation the scope seems to render its display with the external screen's proper native resolution. But the proportions (with the relatively large settings display bands at the top & bottom) seem to remain the same as on the built-in screen, i.e. we don't get the more balanced layout of the 10" DHOs. So, does the remaining "letterbox" display area for traces etc. work for you?
Thanks for your hands-on observations!
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Maybe my hands are not that big but there are no problems at all to operate the DHO924S. It is true that in practice there is a mix of both hand and mouse operation, also due to the position of the 924S.
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let me guess: you are left handed Cees?
btw: Nice setup you have there.
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Thank you! I am an audio designer but most focussed on DA conversion so besides audio ( see my 24 bit analyzer in the middle ) HF devices are necessary as well for data analysis , DSP but also for side problems like EMI and EMC.
No I am right handed by the way ;).
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I'm left-handed and would have copied your setup of the oscilloscopes and SVNA ....
No I am right handed by the way ;).
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Outside the range of the photo there is also some measuring equipment on the left and right, but it is used less. But given that the 924S is easy to operate with the mouse, it can easily be placed in a high position. An exception is the use as a logic analyzer and I can place it on the table. The flat cable would then be just too short.
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I don't like touchscreens in general, and the screen on my DHO914S is a bit small.
I found it usable with one of the styli designed for touchscreens that I bought to go with an iPad Nano (even smaller screen).
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I don't like touchscreens in general, and the screen on my DHO914S is a bit small.
I found it usable with one of the styli designed for touchscreens that I bought to go with an iPad Nano (even smaller screen).
Have you tried a wireless mouse with your new 914? Rob @ tautech pointed us towards this some time ago and didn't think this would matter much wrt our user DSO/MSO experience. Now it's become a needed accessory, really does improve UI and augments the touchscreen and buttons/switches :-+
Best,
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I don't like touchscreens in general, and the screen on my DHO914S is a bit small.
I found it usable with one of the styli designed for touchscreens that I bought to go with an iPad Nano (even smaller screen).
Have you tried a wireless mouse with your new 914? Rob @ tautech pointed us towards this some time ago and didn't think this would matter much wrt our user DSO/MSO experience. Now it's become a needed accessory, really does improve UI and augments the touchscreen and buttons/switches :-+
Best,
If I can plug in a USB mouse, I'll see how this works before trying a wireless unit.
Time to dive back into the manual.
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Just out of curiosity: Has anyone tried a WiFi dongle in the USB port of their new DHO yet? Would the Android OS by any chance include support for that?
Find all driver in system and you can found RT8188EU avaliable(and the only one)
Siglent SDS1104X-E supports the TP-Link TL-WN725N which uses an RTL8188EUS chipset that I believe should work with that driver. If there is someone with a DHO800/DHO900 and a SDS1104X-E with a WiFi adapter who could verify that it works in the Rigol oscilloscope, that would be good news. The TL-WN725N is readily available for $10 (in the US anyway)
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I don't like touchscreens in general, and the screen on my DHO914S is a bit small.
I found it usable with one of the styli designed for touchscreens that I bought to go with an iPad Nano (even smaller screen).
Have you tried a wireless mouse with your new 914? Rob @ tautech pointed us towards this some time ago and didn't think this would matter much wrt our user DSO/MSO experience. Now it's become a needed accessory, really does improve UI and augments the touchscreen and buttons/switches :-+
Best,
If I can plug in a USB mouse, I'll see how this works before trying a wireless unit.
Time to dive back into the manual.
We just use a wireless Logitek Keyboard and Mouse, both work on our Siglent. Just plug in the wireless USB dongle (we use a USB expander) and the scope recognizes both and it just works. Altho we don't generally need/use the keyboard, the mouse is always handy.
Best,
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We just use a wireless Logitek Keyboard and Mouse, both work on our Siglent. Just plug in the wireless USB dongle (we use a USB expander) and the scope recognizes both and it just works. Altho we don't generally need/use the keyboard, the mouse is always handy.
External keyboards won't work with the DHO 800/900 (so far), but the mouse should -- without an extra driver as you said, whether wireless or via cable. So "any old mouse" should do, with the exception of Bluetooth-based models.
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I have just tried a wireless mouse via USB dongle on my DHO812 and can confirm that it works.
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External keyboards won't work with the DHO 800/900 (so far), but the mouse should
More correctly: They work, but they don't do much. The UI isn't designed for keyboard input.
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I'd want WiFi and a mouse and probably USB stick. I guess that means a hub...
(Is there such a thing as a wireless USB hub?? )
Has anybody managed to install an FTP program on one of these? FTP access to screenshots is incredibly useful on my Micsig.
Maybe there's a neat way to capture screens on the PC via the web interface without having to copy/paste/crop/save each one individually. Or maybe use SCPI. It's not as good as just pressing a screenshot button on the 'scope though.
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I wish some scope one day implements a function to save screenshots/capture logs to a remote NAS folder directly, like most office-class MFU do for scanned documents - for example Canon MF644 that I recently bought. It can also save directly to a PC, but it requires some client software running on it, while NAS is supported natively. Incredibly useful feature!
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External keyboards won't work with the DHO 800/900 (so far), but the mouse should
More correctly: They work, but they don't do much.
I'll try that one on the job someday: "Of course I worked all day, boss! I just didn't do much." ;)
Agree, technically the keyboard is recognized by the OS. But if you can't even enter number via the keyboard, in a situation where the scope lets you input them via a virtual touch keyboard, I would still say that the keyboard does not work (in the scope application).
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I have just tried a wireless mouse via USB dongle on my DHO812 and can confirm that it works.
Thanks! How do you like the on-screen touch UI and the screen in general? Is it largen enough to be useful for your taste?
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I have just tried a wireless mouse via USB dongle on my DHO812 and can confirm that it works.
Thanks! How do you like the on-screen touch UI
One thing is sure: When something has this many options and settings available then anything else is going to be much worse.
eg. Could you imagine using your PC or phone using just six buttons and a rotary encoder?
I'll be getting a stylus and/or mouse with mine. A stylus is much more precise than a finger.
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Maybe there's a neat way to capture screens on the PC via the web interface without having to copy/paste/crop/save each one individually. Or maybe use SCPI. It's not as good as just pressing a screenshot button on the 'scope though.
On my trusty DS1054Z I love Peter Dreisiebner's "Bildschirmkopie". Triggering the capture right from the PC, then either copy/pasting it right into a document or saving it under a meaningful name (which I can enter using an actual keyboard!) is a great workflow for my taste. And it is really snappy, especially over the USB connection.
Peter, who is active as "PeDre" on this forum, mentioned a while ago that the program should also work with the MSO5000 series, since Rigol's SCPI commands are pretty consistent across their product lines. So it might work with the DHO series too? If it doesn't, maybe Peter is willing to consider requests. ;)
Bildschirmkopie has been stable for a few years now. It can still be downloaded from Peter's website: https://www.dreisiebner.at/temp/rigol-bildschirmkopie.zip (https://www.dreisiebner.at/temp/rigol-bildschirmkopie.zip)
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Could you imagine using your PC or phone using just six buttons and a rotary encoder?
I do remember using my phone via just a rotary encoder. :)
No doubt having the touch screen is a nice extra; and if I should find it too fiddly, I can always use a stylus, a mouse, or the knobs and buttons for all routine settings.
But the touch controls take room on the screen, and on the DHO 800/900 with its already small and 16:9 screen, they leave a relatively narrow "letterbox" area for the trace display. So one does pay a price for the touch funtionality in terms of screen real estate. Hence my questions around usability.
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But the touch controls take room on the screen, and on the DHO 800/900 with its already small and 16:9 screen, they leave a relatively narrow "letterbox" area for the trace display.
Yes, but you get a small device in exchange.
If you feel it's a problem then go for the DHO1000.
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Hmm...
Touchscreen has indeed it´s limits the smaller it goes.
I already had problems with the DHO4204 to hit the right spot, this will not get better with a smaller screen.
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I'll be getting a stylus and/or mouse with mine. A stylus is much more precise than a finger.
IMHO needing a mouse to drive a touchscreen based device means the UI hasn't been designed properly to begin with. Your comparison with a smartphone is on point; if they can do it for a smartphone, it should be doable for an oscilloscope. The key is to hide controls which aren't strictly needed. Like MicSig does for example.
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I'll be getting a stylus and/or mouse with mine. A stylus is much more precise than a finger.
IMHO needing a mouse to drive a touchscreen based device means the UI hasn't been designed properly to begin with.
It looks usable in the videos I've seen, but I'm sure there's somebody who'll complain.
I'm very used to using a stylus with my touchscreen laptop so it seems like the way to go.
Maybe it won't be - I don't use one with my Micsig but that doesn't have draggable windows or little close buttons.
We'll see when it arrives ... but I'm definitely going to try all three options (finger/mouse/stylus).
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I'll be getting a stylus and/or mouse with mine. A stylus is much more precise than a finger.
IMHO needing a mouse to drive a touchscreen based device means the UI hasn't been designed properly to begin with.
Agreed however a mouse speeds usage and when scroll wheel capability is available adjusting numeric values for some settings is much more convenient and faster.
Then of course you can instead enter a new value with a virtual keyboard.
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I wish some scope one day implements a function to save screenshots/capture logs to a remote NAS folder directly, like most office-class MFU do for scanned documents - for example Canon MF644 that I recently bought. It can also save directly to a PC, but it requires some client software running on it, while NAS is supported natively. Incredibly useful feature!
Like attached ?
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I output a NTSC bi-level sync signal from a sync generator but my DHO804 can not trigger with any video trigger type while my siglent 1102x-c can. |O Can someone here please confirm?
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I wish some scope one day implements a function to save screenshots/capture logs to a remote NAS folder directly, like most office-class MFU do for scanned documents - for example Canon MF644 that I recently bought. It can also save directly to a PC, but it requires some client software running on it, while NAS is supported natively. Incredibly useful feature!
you can make PC client software to automate what you need through VISA driver..
External keyboards won't work with the DHO 800/900 (so far), but the mouse should
More correctly: They work, but they don't do much. The UI isn't designed for keyboard input.
they dont, partly. i just tried my wireless mouse+keyboard Gigabyte K7590... mouse does work, but when i tried to enter filename to save in local disk, dialog box that has on screen keyboard doesnt respond to my wireless keyboard, but the scope does respond to any keys when it asks "Press any key to exit" when i preview saved screenshot.
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Hi! All!
I have a question - can I use 2nd channel on DHO804 as EXT trigger? - I need to align VHS VCR tape path, and still waiting delivery of my 804...
Thanks!
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Yes you can select all channels for external trigger
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Thanks, will try after it will arrive :)
And have someone tried that battery pack?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbBq1AVIQAc&pp=ygUOZGhvODAwIGJhdHRlcnk%3D (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbBq1AVIQAc&pp=ygUOZGhvODAwIGJhdHRlcnk%3D)
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I have the 924S so yes I tried it
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Thanks! How do you like the on-screen touch UI
For my taste the screen is quite small. And some of the functionality can be reached via touch menus only. I found my Owon XDS2102A easier to operate. Maybe I just need to get used to the touchscreen operation yet?
The smaller footprint of the rigol is a plus though.
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Hi! All!
I have a question - can I use 2nd channel on DHO804 as EXT trigger?
That is not the accepted meaning of "EXT trigger". But yes you can select it or any of the other three input channels as the trigger source.
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I have the 924S so yes I tried it
Umm -- tried what exactly? The piggyback battery pack mentioned in the post before yours? That would have been quick!
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report your bug here people.. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800-12bit-dso-bug-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800-12bit-dso-bug-list/) let this thread discuss technical...
No, please report them in the already existing dedicated bug-report thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-oscilloscope-bug-reports-firmware/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-oscilloscope-bug-reports-firmware/)
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It was about the ext trigger function
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Thanks, will try after it will arrive :)
And have someone tried that battery pack?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbBq1AVIQAc&pp=ygUOZGhvODAwIGJhdHRlcnk%3D (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbBq1AVIQAc&pp=ygUOZGhvODAwIGJhdHRlcnk%3D)
Funkar fint med vilket 12 volt som helst. Jag kör med ett 4S Lifepo4 pack som ger runt 13 volt. Köpte en USB-C kabel på Biltema och satte dit kontakter som passade mitt RC batteri. Skaffade även en batteriövervakare som larmar om någon cell börjar bli för låg.
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It was about the ext trigger function
If you don't get your reply in directly after the post you refer to, please insert a (partial) quote of that post to make it clear which post you are responding to. Simply use the "Quote" link instead of the "Reply" link, and shorten the quote manually in the editor if it is excessively long.
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Has anyone checked if the USB-C power connector has data too? Can we power the scope through a powered hub with our USB devices connected to that hub?
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Just got my 802 from AliExpress. Great functionality. I can’t get the cursors to show up on the FFT window. Dave’s review had them on the FFT window along with the measurements. The cursor button will add them to waveform view but doesn’t add to FFT window even when it’s full screen. What am I doing wrong?
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Rigol DHO800 Aliasing effect
It's not a bug, but could be fixed. Press "Default", use 12.5 MHz (or 25, 20, 10, 5 MHz), 1k memory depth, increase the timebase until aliasing appears. Firmware version 1.00.
https://youtu.be/D_kHEUk-zKo (https://youtu.be/D_kHEUk-zKo)
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Rigol DHO800 Aliasing effect
It's not a bug, but could be fixed. Press "Default", use 12.5 MHz (or 25, 20, 10, 5 MHz), 1k memory depth, increase the timebase until aliasing appears. Firmware version 1.00.
https://youtu.be/D_kHEUk-zKo (https://youtu.be/D_kHEUk-zKo)
This will only work for configurations where the aliasing is caused by the display engine of the scope, i.e. the sampling setup still meets the Shannon requirements. If the acquisition engine causes the aliasing, the "hardware" frequency counter won't help you since its signal is derived "digitally" from after the ADC as I have demonstrated here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5106558/#msg5106558 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5106558/#msg5106558)
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I had a quick play with one at the EDS show today.
UI seemed very responsive.
Smaller than I was expecting, I think maybe a little too small for the amount of stuff on the screen - not good if you have trouble reading small text.
The same scope with a bigger screen would probably have a market.
Slightly disconcerting thing was that normally on a scope you expect to see a little "grass" of noise on a live trace which confirms it's running as opposed to waiting for trigger - the combination of the 12 bit ADC and small screen meant that it was sometimes impossible to see any difference between a live trace and a frozen one - there is a fairly clear trigger indication at the top-left of the screen which I'm sure you'd get used to.
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The same scope with a bigger screen would probably have a market.
You mean like the DHO1000? :popcorn:
I'm wondering if the price of those will drop once the DHO800 supply situation settles down.
Maybe also a version of that with logic analyzer will also appear and replace the MSO5000.
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On my trusty DS1054Z I love Peter Dreisiebner's "Bildschirmkopie". Triggering the capture right from the PC, then either copy/pasting it right into a document or saving it under a meaningful name (which I can enter using an actual keyboard!) is a great workflow for my taste. And it is really snappy, especially over the USB connection.
Peter, who is active as "PeDre" on this forum, mentioned a while ago that the program should also work with the MSO5000 series, since Rigol's SCPI commands are pretty consistent across their product lines. So it might work with the DHO series too? If it doesn't, maybe Peter is willing to consider requests. ;)
Bildschirmkopie has been stable for a few years now. It can still be downloaded from Peter's website: https://www.dreisiebner.at/temp/rigol-bildschirmkopie.zip (https://www.dreisiebner.at/temp/rigol-bildschirmkopie.zip)
Quick follow-up on my own post: I just saw in another thread that "Bildschirmkopie" does not work with the DHO series so far. PeDre has replied with a possible fix, but that is yet to be confirmed: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-screen-capture-vcl-windows-application/msg5108583/#msg5108583 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-screen-capture-vcl-windows-application/msg5108583/#msg5108583)
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Mine's arrived at my city but today is a public holiday(*) so I guess I'm not getting it today.
(*) The second one this week - that's Spain for you.
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On my trusty DS1054Z I love Peter Dreisiebner's "Bildschirmkopie". Triggering the capture right from the PC, then either copy/pasting it right into a document or saving it under a meaningful name (which I can enter using an actual keyboard!) is a great workflow for my taste. And it is really snappy, especially over the USB connection.
Peter, who is active as "PeDre" on this forum, mentioned a while ago that the program should also work with the MSO5000 series, since Rigol's SCPI commands are pretty consistent across their product lines. So it might work with the DHO series too? If it doesn't, maybe Peter is willing to consider requests. ;)
Bildschirmkopie has been stable for a few years now. It can still be downloaded from Peter's website: https://www.dreisiebner.at/temp/rigol-bildschirmkopie.zip (https://www.dreisiebner.at/temp/rigol-bildschirmkopie.zip)
Working fine here with the 924S
Quick follow-up on my own post: I just saw in another thread that "Bildschirmkopie" does not work with the DHO series so far. PeDre has replied with a possible fix, but that is yet to be confirmed: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-screen-capture-vcl-windows-application/msg5108583/#msg5108583 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-screen-capture-vcl-windows-application/msg5108583/#msg5108583)
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New firmware:
v00.01.01.00.01 2023/08/10
1. Remove all time-related displays on the instrument
2. To modify the vertical interface, click the wiring diagram to modify the AC coupling function
3. Modify the delayed scan Chinese display as Zoom
4. Modify the order of the menu in the upper right corner, put the measurement in the front and Default in the back
5. The probe ratio interface is removed, and the probe ratio option is added to the vertical first-level menu
https://supportcn.rigol.com/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/ftp/Firmware/DHO800_DHO900(Software)UpdateV00.01.01.zip
(https://supportcn.rigol.com/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/ftp/Firmware/DHO800_DHO900(Software)UpdateV00.01.01.zip)
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Thanks, nice find!
I assume the "remove all time-related displays" refers to the time of day, which was rather meaningless without a battery-buffered clock. Otherwise, none of the issues mentioned in the bug-report thread here on the forum seems to be addressed yet. But good to see that Rigol does have someone working on the firmware; let's hope for a next release soon.
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Thanks, nice find!
I assume the "remove all time-related displays" refers to the time of day, which was rather meaningless without a battery-buffered clock. Otherwise, none of the issues mentioned in the bug-report thread here on the forum seems to be addressed yet. But good to see that Rigol does have someone working on the firmware; let's hope for a next release soon.
And we can see where they are still experimenting with GUI features and positioning...
Let's hope they will listen closely to user base and make note..
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New firmware:
Just in time! Mine should arrive tomorrow... :)
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New firmware:
Just in time! Mine should arrive tomorrow... :)
They knew that. :)
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New firmware:
Just in time! Mine should arrive tomorrow... :)
They knew that. :)
:-DD :-DD :-DD
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Has anyone tried the Bode Plot function yet after this update?
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Has anyone tried the Bode Plot function yet after this update?
It's only been out for a few hours!
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Has anyone tried the Bode Plot function yet after this update?
It's only been out for a few hours!
Yes, but young people these days are faster than I am.
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Has anyone tried the Bode Plot function yet after this update?
There's a thread for that! ;) And didn't you already thank Cees, who stated there that it is fixed? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho914s-bode-plot/msg5109180/#msg5109180 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho914s-bode-plot/msg5109180/#msg5109180)
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Has anyone tried the Bode Plot function yet after this update?
There's a thread for that! ;) And didn't you already thank Cees, who stated there that it is fixed? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho914s-bode-plot/msg5109180/#msg5109180 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho914s-bode-plot/msg5109180/#msg5109180)
Yes, I thanked him for the link to the update.
My update is now in process.
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My new Bode plot after update: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho914s-bode-plot/msg5109597/#msg5109597 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho914s-bode-plot/msg5109597/#msg5109597)
I am still disappointed.
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Today I received my DHO804 and found a weird problem.
When the vertical range is set to something <=50mV/div and the signal amplitude is more than 1V signal gets distorted.
To test it:
1- Connect your probe to the test signal generator on the right bottom side of your scope
2- Set channel coupling to DC
3- Set vertical sensitivity to 100mV/div. In this case, you should see the bottom of the signal fits to 0 volts correctly. (check first picture)
4- Now set vertical sensitivity to 50mV/div. In my scope signal is distorted and shows values below 0 volts. (check second picture)
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
I also took a video of the problem:
https://youtu.be/2cCnPJAncJQ (https://youtu.be/2cCnPJAncJQ)
Could you please check if the problem also exists in your device?
PS: Installing last firmware and self calibration didn't change anything.
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Today I received my DHO804 and found a weird problem.
Could you please check if the problem also exists in your device?
That's just the op-amps recovering after an overload, perfectly normal.
(In fact that's very little distortion compared to some others, but maybe you need to go further off screen, try setting it to 1mV/div and see what happens)
Here it is on a Rigol DS1040Z: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-distortion-issue/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-distortion-issue/)
Here it is on a Siglent: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-anomaly-on-what-should-be-a-simple-task/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-anomaly-on-what-should-be-a-simple-task/)
etc.
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Mine arrived!
First impressions:
It feels really solid. I was expecting it to be lightweight but nope, not at all.
I like the color. I think the black one will be worse.
The fan isn't what you'd call loud but it has a definite frequency (150Hz-ish), not white noise.
It definitely smells of "new oscilloscope". Not a lot, but enough that I hope it goes away with time. I'm gonna store it somewhere warm/ventilated when it's not in use, let's see if it fades.
The probes have two springs each in the little accessory bag. :-+
Auto mode is FAST - fast enough that I might actually use it.
The screen is bright. The illusion the the UI is supernaturally high-resolution is real.
Text is small but very readable.
Self cal worked. :)
It has a full diagnostics suite to test the screen, all the buttons on the front panel, etc,
There's an option "input lock" in the utility menu that disables all user input until you read the manual to find out the secret. :D
Now I'm trying the firmware upgrade... and failing. It recognizes the USB stick but says "No firmware available".
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do you think there is any chance that the contents of the external display and the internal display will be different? Software or hardware limitation?
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do you think there is any chance that the contents of the external display and the internal display will be different?
No.
Software or hardware limitation?
It's not hardware - external displays are rendered at the native resolution of whatever screen you connect, it's not just an upscaled image.
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Mine arrived!
There goes the neighborhood!
Eager to read an unbiased hands-on review.
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Eager to read an unbiased hands-on review.
I'm still deciding if I need my own thread. Everybody else seems to have one.
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Is the AWG output 50ohms? This is what I get using a direct BNC cable, no 50ohm termination. Signal gets halved if I add a 50ohm termination.
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I'm still deciding if I need my own thread. Everybody else seems to have one.
Since this is at the "singularity event" level, I would suggest creating your own thread. :)
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Mine arrived!
There goes the neighborhood!
Eager to read an unbiased hands-on review.
We got a DHO814 on 10/12/23, so had a few minutes to play around with it.
First impressions;
Nice shipping packaging, custom fitted.
Nice, small, somewhat heavy, seems like quality build.
Support feet work OK for thin small case.
Nice screen, but dim.
Display looks nice, readable.
Touchscreen works OK considering screen size.
Works with wireless mouse.
Waveform noise levels are good.
General waveform display and triggering seem to work as expected.
UI seems decent, but need much more time to evaluate properly.
Fan is sorta annoying, not too loud tho.
Plastic smell, hopefully will dispense.
FFT implementation is questionable/awkward, altho haven't spent much time, hopefully experience will improve with familiarity.
So 1st impressions are: overall hardware is very well done, UI/software/features yet to be determined (neutral so far, but limited use time).
So far, looks like it will fit our intended specialized purpose.
More later.
Best,
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Fan is sorta annoying, not too loud tho.
I have the DHO914S and fan is not loud at all, I had all DHO914S, DHO4024 and HDO1074 on and the loudest one was the DHO4024.
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Touchscreen works OK considering screen size.
Yep. UI elements are very small but I haven't had any problems at all hitting the little X to close a window or in dragging things around.
It really seems to figure out what you're trying to do.
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My fingers are a bit fat for the screen, but a normal stylus designed for touchscreens works well for me on the selections from screen.
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Fan is sorta annoying, not too loud tho.
I have the DHO914S and fan is not loud at all
Mine's been on all day and it hasn't annoyed me as much as I thought it would.
Doesn't mean I'm not going to try and make it quieter though...
Nice screen, but dim.
Mine seems plenty bright enough but I guess it depends on your ambient lighting.
I haven't found a brightness control anywhere.
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The front panel has some nice-but-impossible-to-photograph lighting.
I think the blue of button 4 is outside the sRGB spectrum, ie. no monitor will display it. You can sort of see it projected on the panel in the dark insert, but... not really.
The pink/magenta of button 3 doesn't really come out either. You'll just have to get your own DHO to see them in person. :)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1898844;image)
The trigger slope has cute LED indicators for slope which are a bit pointless (it's shown on screen). The TWO twisty knobs have LED indicators to show if they're currently adjusting horizontal or vertical things (eg. cursors) - very nice!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1898850;image)
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The front panel has some nice-but-impossible-to-photograph lighting.
When photographed like that, it does remind me a bit of gaming keyboards. Can you select different color and animation patterns? ;)
Given Dave's review comment that he struggled to see the indicators on the function knobs and trigger mode (under his rather bright studio lights) I assume the button illumination is bright enough to be seen, but not so bright as to become obtrusive, in typical room lighting?
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Rigol DHO800 waveform update freezing bug
This bug occurs at a horizontal scale of 200 ms per division and above, when you set the trigger position to the time before the capture starts.
Setting the trigger some time before the capture is used widely to debug large signal sequences. By moving the trigger position, you can study the whole signal in small portions.
Firmware version 1.00
https://youtu.be/FyM5jibkgfE (https://youtu.be/FyM5jibkgfE)
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Today I received my DHO804 and found a weird problem.
There are a lot of problems with the oscilloscope. Please, check out my channel to be aware of the major ones:
https://www.youtube.com/@sergivaschenko (https://www.youtube.com/@sergivaschenko)
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This puppy gets kinda warm after awhile!!
Anyone know how to change the HDMI resolution for external monitor? Also, if an external HDMI touch screen works (touch part)?
Best,
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The front panel has some nice-but-impossible-to-photograph lighting.
When photographed like that, it does remind me a bit of gaming keyboards. Can you select different color and animation patterns? ;)
I can animate the big green one to red by pressing it. See below.
Given Dave's review comment that he struggled to see the indicators on the function knobs and trigger mode (under his rather bright studio lights) I assume the button illumination is bright enough to be seen, but not so bright as to become obtrusive, in typical room lighting?
The function indicator lights aren't very bright but they're not much dimmer than the screen. If you can see the screen you should be able to see them.
The buttons are much brighter than the screen, especially the big RUN/STOP button (which must have two or three LEDs underneath it). 8)
I haven't found them obtrusive though because they're soft, diffused colors. Not shining in your eyes.
YMMV.
Maybe they might be obtrusive if you fixate on them after reading this post... :popcorn:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1898940;image)
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This puppy gets kinda warm after awhile!!
Anyone know how to change the HDMI resolution for external monitor? Also, if an external HDMI touch screen works (touch part)?
Best,
Try this
"Test Mode" (by pressing 3 times the Utility->About menu item)
--------
This puppy gets kinda warm after awhile!!
Anyone know how to change the HDMI resolution for external monitor? Also, if an external HDMI touch screen works (touch part)?
Best,
Yep, David demonstrated that on its second channel.
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Also, if an external HDMI touch screen works (touch part)?
Most touch screens have a USB output that emulates a mouse when you touch them.
If yours does that then you just connect it to the USB port on the 'scope and it'll work.
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This puppy gets kinda warm after awhile!!
Anyone know how to change the HDMI resolution for external monitor?
Try this
"Test Mode" (by pressing 3 times the Utility->About menu item)
--------
Then go to "other":
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1898970;image)
It might not be very usable at 640x480 but give it a go and see what happens. :popcorn:
nb. I think it detected/used the monitor's native resolution in Dave's video when he didn't set it explicitly.
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The front panel has some nice-but-impossible-to-photograph lighting.
I think the blue of button 4 is outside the sRGB spectrum, ie. no monitor will display it. You can sort of see it projected on the panel in the dark insert, but... not really.
The pink/magenta of button 3 doesn't really come out either. You'll just have to get your own DHO to see them in person. :)
what nonsense are you talking about? how do you know its not in sRGB spectrum? monitor gamut alone (differ between brands) is already different from camera sensor's or human eye's gamut. how do you measure? do you have speculumeter? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB my dho804's lighting is good, nothing to complaint about, its relativistic actually...
btw, trying to compare FFT output between DS1054Z and DHO804, there is hope for lower SNR on 12bit scope ymmv...
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Does anyone know if for cursor measurements one set of cursors can be disabled?
For example I want to measure timing and don't want to see the vertical cursors. I know that I could move them to the window borders but then they are still visible.
If I am not overlooking something, the manual does not mention an option to do so. If I am not proven wrong then I could post this as a feature request to Rigol.
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Does anyone know if for cursor measurements one set of cursors can be disabled?
I don't think so. You have to have all four enabled at once.
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Does anyone know if for cursor measurements one set of cursors can be disabled?
I don't think so. You have to have all four enabled at once.
No X or Y, just both ?
:-//
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The plasticky smell seems much less today... maybe becasue it was warm all day yesterday and had a fan moving air through it.
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Does anyone know if for cursor measurements one set of cursors can be disabled?
I don't think so. You have to have all four enabled at once.
No X or Y, just both ?
:-//
I checked both the scope and the manual, it looks like only both. But if it can handle, why not? You can move the axis you don't want out of the screen until delta is 0, if it bothers you. What I don't like is that there is no knob that can move both X1 and X2 or Y1 and Y2 at the same time once you have the delta fixed
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Nice screen, but dim.
Mine seems plenty bright enough but I guess it depends on your ambient lighting.
I haven't found a brightness control anywhere.
Compared to our Siglent SDS2000X+, KS34465A and other instruments, the DHO814 screen is much dimmer, even in this image it shows, and it actual visual use much dimmer than on the image displayed. Trace brightness is not even close to Siglent trace brightness, which is set to just 52%.
The reflective screen makes this even more difficult for viewing. Just barely acceptable IMO, and will be a tad more difficult in a bright environment.
Best,
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I noticed this right away, strangely enough this gets a little better in the next 10min after power on, but overall the base brightness is about MSO5000 level(after its improvement).
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The reflective screen makes this even more difficult for viewing. Just barely acceptable IMO, and will be a tad more difficult in a bright environment.
I've ordered a couple of matte screen protectors (2 different brands) to see what happens. There's not a lot of reflection where I've been using it I know I prefer my Micsig with a matte protector on it.
They're only a couple of $$ each so let's see what happens. :)
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The front panel has some nice-but-impossible-to-photograph lighting.
I think the blue of button 4 is outside the sRGB spectrum, ie. no monitor will display it. You can sort of see it projected on the panel in the dark insert, but... not really.
The pink/magenta of button 3 doesn't really come out either. You'll just have to get your own DHO to see them in person. :)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1898844;image)
Looks nice, not sure if it's too much disco in an actual semi-dim-lit environment (nahh, no such thing as too much disco), but at least they are using the LEDs behind the channel buttons.(yeah, Im looking at you Micsig, putting LEDs behind it, and not even using it https://tinyurl.com/3a267tyw (https://tinyurl.com/3a267tyw) )
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Compared to our Siglent SDS2000X+, KS34465A and other instruments, the DHO814 screen is much dimmer, even in this image it shows, and it actual visual use much dimmer than on the image displayed. Trace brightness is not even close to Siglent trace brightness, which is set to just 52%.
The reflective screen makes this even more difficult for viewing. Just barely acceptable IMO, and will be a tad more difficult in a bright environment.
This must somehow be rather subjective, or depend strongly on the room lighting. EDIT: Specific details of the room lighting, not just overall brightness. Because e.g.:
Dave must have shot his review video under pretty bright lights -- he did complain that the little white LED indicators (slope, button mode etc.) were hard to see, and that shows up in the video too. But he seemed totally fine with the main LCD's brightness, and it looks great to my eyes in the video.
So what gives? Dave obviously took care that no direct reflections from the studio lights were visible in the display. (Which admittedly may not always be easy, depending on a room's geometry and given the glossy display.) Are such reflections your main problem, maybe, or does the display appear too dim even when you take care to avoid them?
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Compared to our Siglent SDS2000X+, KS34465A and other instruments, the DHO814 screen is much dimmer, even in this image it shows, and it actual visual use much dimmer than on the image displayed. Trace brightness is not even close to Siglent trace brightness, which is set to just 52%.
The reflective screen makes this even more difficult for viewing. Just barely acceptable IMO, and will be a tad more difficult in a bright environment.
This must somehow be rather subjective, or depend strongly on the room lighting. EDIT: Specific details of the room lighting, not just overall brightness. Because e.g.:
Dave must have shot his review video under pretty bright lights -- he did complain that the little white LED indicators (slope, button mode etc.) were hard to see, and that shows up in the video too. But he seemed totally fine with the main LCD's brightness, and it looks great to my eyes in the video.
So what gives? Dave obviously took care that no direct reflections from the studio lights were visible in the display. (Which admittedly may not always be easy, depending on a room's geometry and given the glossy display.) Are such reflections your main problem, maybe, or does the display appear too dim even when you take care to avoid them?
The answer is simple. The new DHO814 has the dimmest display (especially noticeable on actual waveform traces) of ANY instrument we have in our lab with exception of an old HP34401A which has a failing display which needs replacing. This includes the SDS2000X+, SSA3021X+, 3 KS34465A, DMM6500, AG34401A, 3 SDP3303X, SDG3022X, SDG6022X, SDL1020X, SFM3065X, 2 KWR102, KWR103, GPP4323, TH2830, IM3536 and so one......get the picture!!!
Our lab is somewhat dark, not bright, however the intended use will be in a very bright shop like environment. We are evaluating this for a client which may decide to include with their product, which will end up in bright shop environments.
So use here for client is questionable, and should know by end of next week when the scope is evaluated in this shop type environment with non-electrical folks. Physical size, connector accessibility, general UI, limited electrical performance are all good and meet expectations, but if potential users can't see/read display in the shop environment, it's a no go!!
Don't misconstrue our comments, we call them as we see them, and pull no punches, that's why we were called upon for evaluation.
This little scope is impressive in many ways, however screen brightness is NOT one of them. The hardware build and quality is superb from the case standpoint (haven't taken it apart, and don't intend to). Display quality (outside intensity) is very nice, and also displays nice on an external HDMI monitor, the additional HDMI resolution is appreciated....EXCEPT the waveform doesn't seem to scale up resolution-wise >:(
Electrical performance is good so far, altho we haven't spent much time outside of clients needs, same goes for UI, and other features. The VESA mounting is also a plus (and planned on using such), the fan noise is slightly annoying but not issue since the shop noise will be much greater. The fan noise might be a concern for some folks tho, since one must get really close to the tiny screen to read the display, thus apparent fan noise is higher.
Overall impressions so far are generally quite good, especially considering the cost :-+
Best,
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The answer is simple. The new DHO814 has the dimmest display (especially noticeable on actual waveform traces) of ANY instrument we have in our lab [...]
Our lab is somewhat dark, not bright, however the intended use will be in a very bright shop like environment. We are evaluating this for a client which may decide to include with their product, which will end up in bright shop environments. So use here for client is questionable [...]
Many thanks for the additional details and color, also on the non-display-related aspects. I really appreciate how you are approaching this from an impartial viewpoint, without a personal agenda beyond finding a solution that meets your client's needs.
I still can't quite square your observations on display brightness with how the scope comes across in Dave's video (screen brightness vs. LED brightness vs. room lights). Well, as mentioned earlier -- I will look for an opportunity to see one of these hands-on. That also seems important for the other "ergonomics" aspects, like fan noise and size of the display for viewing as well as touch operation, where expectations and perception will be somewhat subjective.
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The answer is simple. The new DHO814 has the dimmest display (especially noticeable on actual waveform traces) of ANY instrument we have in our lab [...]
Our lab is somewhat dark, not bright, however the intended use will be in a very bright shop like environment. We are evaluating this for a client which may decide to include with their product, which will end up in bright shop environments. So use here for client is questionable [...]
Many thanks for the additional details and color, also on the non-display-related aspects. I really appreciate how you are approaching this from an impartial viewpoint, without a personal agenda beyond finding a solution that meets your client's needs.
I still can't quite square your observations on display brightness with how the scope comes across in Dave's video (screen brightness vs. LED brightness vs. room lights). Well, as mentioned earlier -- I will look for an opportunity to see one of these hands-on. That also seems important for the other "ergonomics" aspects, like fan noise and size of the display for viewing as well as touch operation, where expectations and perception will be somewhat subjective.
The display dimness is relative to everything else we have/use in our lab. It's acceptable for our use, but just barely. This is especially true wrt the actual trace which is dimmer than the other text and stuff on the screen. We have everything maxed out on the display, so this is the top limit.
Not sure what Rigol's thinking is here, seems a user would want the waveform display the brightest or at least as bright as the surrounding text and such. The Siglent trace is as bright as everything else on the screen, the DMMs displayed numbers are as bright as everything else, same for power supplies, LCR meters and such. Hopefully this is just some internal control on the display that can be corrected by firmware updates.
When you get your hands on one you'll immediately "see" what we are talking about. Others that have these hands on, also commented about this display dimness.
BTW we don't use the Touch-Screen much on anything that supports a wireless mouse. Can report the mouse works well on this, so haven't used the touch much. With an external display, the mouse is not as responsive as with directly on the screen tho.
Best,
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Considering the already quite high idle power draw and the toastieness of the dho8xx, the dimm screen might be a "mitigation" as bright screens can increase power draw quite substantially.
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Here an example taken from my working room, all screens are looking as they have the same brightness...
https://youtu.be/UOFe9wmdIKk
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VisaDSO (1.1.0) now supports DHO800 (possibly DHO900, DHO1000 and DHO4000 too, but untested) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/rigol-feat-higher-bitfloat-accuracy-general-purpose-deep-mem-fft-sw/msg5114658/#msg5114658)
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Considering the already quite high idle power draw and the toastieness of the dho8xx, the dimm screen might be a "mitigation" as bright screens can increase power draw quite substantially.
Nope. The backlight won't be more than 3-5W at most.
I'm not seeing a brightness problem here.
Not sure what Rigol's thinking is here, seems a user would want the waveform display the brightest or at least as bright as the surrounding text and such.
Maybe it's just that the Rigol traces are much thinner and the screen pixels are smaller.
1 pixel instead of 2 = half the perceived brightness. Smaller pixel=less light.
Here it is next to my Micsig. The Micsig is at full brightness.
Pic 1 at 5ns/div - thinner traces on the Rigol:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1901913;image)
Pic 2 - I changed the timebases to fatten up the traces a bit.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1901919;image)
The Rigol screen is definitely more contrasty than the Micsig.
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Let's be clear about this, so that potential buyers are not put off:
The brightness of the Rigol display is sufficient in any case.
It is only slightly darker in direct comparison, but that is not a flaw.
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Considering the already quite high idle power draw and the toastieness of the dho8xx, the dimm screen might be a "mitigation" as bright screens can increase power draw quite substantially.
Nope. The backlight won't be more than 3-5W at most.
I'm not seeing a brightness problem here.
Not sure what Rigol's thinking is here, seems a user would want the waveform display the brightest or at least as bright as the surrounding text and such.
Maybe it's just that the Rigol traces are much thinner and the screen pixels are smaller.
1 pixel instead of 2 = half the perceived brightness. Smaller pixel=less light.
Here it is next to my Micsig. The Micsig is at full brightness.
Pic 1 at 5ns/div - thinner traces on the Rigol:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1901913;image)
Pic 2 - I changed the timebases to fatten up the traces a bit.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1901919;image)
The Rigol screen is definitely more contrasty than the Micsig.
I was about to ask you for a side by side photo between your Micsig and the Rigol and the effective area of the Rigol is so small :palm: I wonder how things look like if you have 4ch active with signals, should we buy a magnifying glass? or an external monitor?
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Considering the already quite high idle power draw and the toastieness of the dho8xx, the dimm screen might be a "mitigation" as bright screens can increase power draw quite substantially.
Nope. The backlight won't be more than 3-5W at most.
I'm not seeing a brightness problem here.
Not sure what Rigol's thinking is here, seems a user would want the waveform display the brightest or at least as bright as the surrounding text and such.
Maybe it's just that the Rigol traces are much thinner and the screen pixels are smaller.
1 pixel instead of 2 = half the perceived brightness. Smaller pixel=less light.
Here it is next to my Micsig. The Micsig is at full brightness.
Pic 1 at 5ns/div - thinner traces on the Rigol:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1901913;image)
Pic 2 - I changed the timebases to fatten up the traces a bit.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1901919;image)
The Rigol screen is definitely more contrasty than the Micsig.
I was about to ask you for a side by side photo between your Micsig and the Rigol and the effective area of the Rigol is so small :palm: I wonder how things look like if you have 4ch active with signals, should we buy a magnifying glass? or an external monitor?
Well this was obviously photographed in very dark room.
How does it look with actual light needed to do any work. Is screen glossy?
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I was about to ask you for a side by side photo between your Micsig and the Rigol and the effective area of the Rigol is so small :palm: I wonder how things look like if you have 4ch active with signals, should we buy a magnifying glass? or an external monitor?
It is what it is. :)
It would be cool if you could put traces in separate windows but I can't find a way to do that. You can't create new windows of type "Signal" (or whatever it would be called).
You can use math functions to do it... but it would be nice to do it natively.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1901994;image)
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I was about to ask you for a side by side photo between your Micsig and the Rigol and the effective area of the Rigol is so small :palm: I wonder how things look like if you have 4ch active with signals, should we buy a magnifying glass? or an external monitor?
It is what it is. :)
It would be cool if you could put traces in separate windows but I can't find a way to do that. You can't create new windows of type "Signal" (or whatever it would be called).
You can use math functions to do it... but it would be nice to do it natively.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1901994;image)
What about the minimum voltage this scope can operate? nobody tested that yet
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Another happy user (oscope in action - tube amp?)..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OJnjXrAf5k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OJnjXrAf5k)
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Let's be clear about this, so that potential buyers are not put off:
The brightness of the Rigol display is sufficient in any case.
It is only slightly darker in direct comparison, but that is not a flaw.
Yes lets be perfectly clear, so as not to misconstrue such!!!
Here's images with local lab bench lights off and on, judge for yourself. The images don't show the difference in contrast as much as viewed, which is common for images with high contrast subjects due to image sensor DR limitations (basically dynamic signal compression). Reflections are an issue as can be seen, we have 3 large computer monitors behind our lab bench and they reflect in the smaller screen, but no so much with the larger mattel screen from any angle. Highly reflective screens require bright displays, some Apple monitors are also highly reflective, but also very bright.
Also when booting, the large "RIGOL" shows up initially very bright and contrasty (nice!), then dims, then appears to brighten a little, then the screen appears and begins to dim again. The screen does seem to brighten some after warming up tho.
Maybe this screen is defective, not sure??
For our client's use this may not be acceptable as we mentioned, as will always be operated in a very bright shop with overhead lighting and lots of bright objects around. They will decide next week when we hand over this DHO814 after our more complete evaluation.
If for our use, we would accept as a drawback (considering the price), as we need to get close to the DSO anyway to see the tiny screen (our eyes aren't that good). Perfectly viewable up close tho, with fine detail. The larger screens are usually viewed from a distance, and thus need to be brighter. Our DSOs are recessed back away from the workspace, if we were to use the DHO814 it would be mounted on a flexible VESA arm, so we could swing into place when using to view, this is the intended use likely for our client, mounting on a VESA arm to allow swinging out of the way.
Something that's come out of this evaluation, when we move into the computer controlled project version with a detailed screen, a bright matte screen will be the baseline design parameter, certainly not a reflective screen.
Question, recall the earlier Siglent SDS2000X+ screens were somewhat reflective but they changed to a more matte screen with later builds. We have both, but the earlier is with a client, not in our lab, so can't compare.
Anyway, as always YMMV!!
Best,
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Also when booting, the large "RIGOL" shows up initially very bright and contrasty (nice!), then dims, then appears to brighten a little, then the screen appears and begins to dim again. The screen does seem to brighten some after warming up tho.
You may have a defective scope...
On my DHO804 the initial RIGOL logo starts bright, them dims and then brightens again.
With ADB you can change the brightness of the screen:
1> adb connect scope-ip-address:55555 [Connect via network]
2> adb shell settings get system screen_brightness [Returns 102. Range is 0-255)
3> adb shell settings put system screen_brightness 200 [This actually dims my screen, as explained below (*)]
4> adb shell settings put system screen_brightness 255 [This brightens the screen back to Max]
(*)The shell script that starts the scope (.../start_rigol_app.sh) seems to override the android system value (set to 102) to 255 via line 149 in the script:
echo 255 > /sys/devices/platform/backlight/backlight/brightness
I conjecture that the scope is bright at hardware/start-up, then the system dims it to 102, and then it gets reset by the Rigol start-up script to 255.
In my scope, omitting step 3> above, and setting it to 255 directly,
doesn't make the screen any brighter, consistent with my conjecture, in that:
(1) The start-up script seems to be overriding the system set value from 102 to 255.
(2) On my scope, the initial RIGOL splash screen starts bright, dims and returns to (and stays) bright, and the screen is as bright or brighter that any other instrument I have. (I also use a 22 inch hdmi monitor, which I have actually set dimmer than the scope screen.)
The value set in 3> or 4> above persists after a reboot. I have reset mine to 102, and still get the Max 255 brightness, as I have just described.
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Here's images with local lab bench lights off and on, judge for yourself.
I'm still not convinced your other 'scope is "brighter", just that it has more/bigger pixels illuminated on the trace.
(Yes, I'm aware that means there's more light coming out of it ... I'm just saying the Rigol's backlight isn't "dim" per se)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1902435;image)
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Here's images with local lab bench lights off and on, judge for yourself.
I'm still not convinced your other 'scope is "brighter", just that it has more/bigger pixels illuminated on the trace.
(Yes, I'm aware that means there's more light coming out of it ... I'm just saying the Rigol's backlight isn't "dim" per se)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1902435;image)
Arguing semantics is what lawyers do.
And you just explained yourself what the problem is.
Monitors are specified in nits, one candela per square meter (cd/m2).
Not per pixel.
Small screen and small pixels means less radiated optical power from single pixel. So if you make a small text, that text radiates with small amount of surface.. Makes it less luminous... It can have good contrast up close but it will be less visible from distance.
And it DOES seem to be really shiny and reflective, which does not help.
If screen is not good enough, people should complain to Rigol so they fix it. They did it for MSO5000. If you keep quiet and trying to shut up other people complaining they'll keep suboptimal screen and nobody profits from it.
Maybe it is only some software setting.
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Also when booting, the large "RIGOL" shows up initially very bright and contrasty (nice!), then dims, then appears to brighten a little, then the screen appears and begins to dim again. The screen does seem to brighten some after warming up tho.
You may have a defective scope...
On my DHO804 the initial RIGOL logo starts bright, them dims and then brightens again.
With ADB you can change the brightness of the screen:
1> adb connect scope-ip-address:55555 [Connect via network]
2> adb shell settings get system screen_brightness [Returns 102. Range is 0-255)
3> adb shell settings put system screen_brightness 200 [This actually dims my screen, as explained below (*)]
4> adb shell settings put system screen_brightness 255 [This brightens the screen back to Max]
(*)The shell script that starts the scope (.../start_rigol_app.sh) seems to override the android system value (set to 102) to 255 via line 149 in the script:
echo 255 > /sys/devices/platform/backlight/backlight/brightness
I conjecture that the scope is bright at hardware/start-up, then the system dims it to 102, and then it gets reset by the Rigol start-up script to 255.
In my scope, omitting step 3> above, and setting it to 255 directly,
doesn't make the screen any brighter, consistent with my conjecture, in that:
(1) The start-up script seems to be overriding the system set value from 102 to 255.
(2) On my scope, the initial RIGOL splash screen starts bright, dims and returns to (and stays) bright, and the screen is as bright or brighter that any other instrument I have. (I also use a 22 inch hdmi monitor, which I have actually set dimmer than the scope screen.)
The value set in 3> or 4> above persists after a reboot. I have reset mine to 102, and still get the Max 255 brightness, as I have just described.
While you might be correct technically about sending ADB commands, if you read Mike's post, you will realize he didn't buy scope to play with it. It is potentially scope for a client that asked him to help evaluate if it is fit for purpose. If it doesn't work as it should coming from the factory it is not fit for purpose...Nobody is going to hack around the scope in this situation. If screen is not bright enough and there is no normal way for user to adjust brightness in GUI that means there is no solution at this moment until Rigol provides it...
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I just noticed a cool UI feature:
On the front of the 'scope there's two twisty knobs for moving things like cursors around.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1902564;image)
In the setup dialogs there's two little indicators to show you that some values can be adjusted using the knobs, eg. Here I can change the Bias voltage using knob 1 and knob 2 changes the channel offset.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1902570;image)
What I just noticed is that the indicators move around if you touch the input boxes. eg. If I touch "Scale" then "Skew" they change to this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1902576;image)
So now I can change Scale and Skew using the knobs. :)
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I just noticed a cool UI feature:
On the front of the 'scope there's two twisty knobs for moving things like cursors around.
In the setup dialogs there's two little indicators to show you that some values can be adjusted using the knobs, eg. Here I can change the Bias voltage using knob 1 and knob 2 changes the channel offset.
What I just noticed is that the indicators move around if you touch the input boxes. eg. If I touch "Scale" then "Skew" they change to this:
:)
Those little arrows are nice touch.
Does it have a physical Triggered LED?
You, know one that blinks when it triggers?
I miss that one on Keysight MSOX3000T.
I know it shows it on screen, but physical LED is better because you can see it with peripheral vision.
On Keysight, I put a LED on a piece of coax and connected it to trig out (aux) so I have a blinking LED.
I hate when they save on few LEDS that makes it so nicer to use...
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While you might be correct technically about sending ADB commands, if you read Mike's post, you will realize he didn't buy scope to play with it.
If you read my post you will realize that my scope did not have a brightness problem out of the box.
"Also when booting, the large "RIGOL" shows up initially very bright and contrasty (nice!)" (as Mike puts it) is where my scope brightness ends up, by default, as it did out of the box. The adb commands and the rest of my post were used to explain why that may be the case.
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While you might be correct technically about sending ADB commands, if you read Mike's post, you will realize he didn't buy scope to play with it.
If you read my post you will realize that my scope did not have a brightness problem out of the box.
"Also when booting, the large "RIGOL" shows up initially very bright and contrasty (nice!)" (as Mike puts it) is where my scope brightness ends up, by default, as it did out of the box. The adb commands and the rest of my post were used to explain why that may be the case.
I honestly did not understand that from your post... But thank you for explaining.
And your explanation show you understand a great deal about how it works..
But as I said, there are many of us that won't thinker with it (lack of certain type of skills, time etc) but expect it work from the box...
This is one of the things that sure look (after your explanation) that Rigol could "fix" with correct config in software in one of the updates....
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Another happy user (oscope in action - tube amp?)..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OJnjXrAf5k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OJnjXrAf5k)
Nice video, note display here.
https://youtu.be/3OJnjXrAf5k?t=270 (https://youtu.be/3OJnjXrAf5k?t=270)
Best
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Also when booting, the large "RIGOL" shows up initially very bright and contrasty (nice!), then dims, then appears to brighten a little, then the screen appears and begins to dim again. The screen does seem to brighten some after warming up tho.
You may have a defective scope...
On my DHO804 the initial RIGOL logo starts bright, them dims and then brightens again.
With ADB you can change the brightness of the screen:
1> adb connect scope-ip-address:55555 [Connect via network]
2> adb shell settings get system screen_brightness [Returns 102. Range is 0-255)
3> adb shell settings put system screen_brightness 200 [This actually dims my screen, as explained below (*)]
4> adb shell settings put system screen_brightness 255 [This brightens the screen back to Max]
(*)The shell script that starts the scope (.../start_rigol_app.sh) seems to override the android system value (set to 102) to 255 via line 149 in the script:
echo 255 > /sys/devices/platform/backlight/backlight/brightness
I conjecture that the scope is bright at hardware/start-up, then the system dims it to 102, and then it gets reset by the Rigol start-up script to 255.
In my scope, omitting step 3> above, and setting it to 255 directly,
doesn't make the screen any brighter, consistent with my conjecture, in that:
(1) The start-up script seems to be overriding the system set value from 102 to 255.
(2) On my scope, the initial RIGOL splash screen starts bright, dims and returns to (and stays) bright, and the screen is as bright or brighter that any other instrument I have. (I also use a 22 inch hdmi monitor, which I have actually set dimmer than the scope screen.)
The value set in 3> or 4> above persists after a reboot. I have reset mine to 102, and still get the Max 255 brightness, as I have just described.
Thanks!
Interesting the startup sequence, as we mentioned may have a defective display....not sure. Also note this is not for our use, but for a client, so altering the sequence or parameters not acceptable like 2N3055 mentioned.
Anyway, the scope is nice and we like it, but client may have issue wrt display brightness/reflections in their use environment.
Best,
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Here's images with local lab bench lights off and on, judge for yourself.
I'm still not convinced your other 'scope is "brighter", just that it has more/bigger pixels illuminated on the trace.
(Yes, I'm aware that means there's more light coming out of it ... I'm just saying the Rigol's backlight isn't "dim" per se)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1902435;image)
Arguing semantics is what lawyers do.
And you just explained yourself what the problem is.
Monitors are specified in nits, one candela per square meter (cd/m2).
Not per pixel.
Small screen and small pixels means less radiated optical power from single pixel. So if you make a small text, that text radiates with small amount of surface.. Makes it less luminous... It can have good contrast up close but it will be less visible from distance.
And it DOES seem to be really shiny and reflective, which does not help.
If screen is not good enough, people should complain to Rigol so they fix it. They did it for MSO5000. If you keep quiet and trying to shut up other people complaining they'll keep suboptimal screen and nobody profits from it.
Maybe it is only some software setting.
Nice explanation as "nits" is related to one's visual experience (what eye "sees") and likely why it's used.
Another effect is when one takes a picture or video, the resultant is highly compressed/altered. Brights are suppressed and darks enhanced, thus bringing both closer within the limited image dynamic range. This is all part of the significant image processing that takes place in the camera because the core image CMOS sensor dynamic range isn't all that good (50~55dB). Even cameras like Nikon that claim to offer "Raw" image data, isn't actually right off the sensor, it's already been manipulated to make the result "appear" to have higher dynamic range. Having designed and worked with CCD sensors long ago, this is something we've been aware for awhile. Significant post image capture processing takes place to "make" the resultant image "appear" more natural, hiding the limited DR of the core CMOS sensor.
Here's an elementary lecture from Stanford wrt to such (see pages 8-13 and 14)
https://isl.stanford.edu/~abbas/ee392b/lect08.pdf (https://isl.stanford.edu/~abbas/ee392b/lect08.pdf)
So in the context of the discussions going on here about display brightness, the images/videos shown will compress the variation, enhancing the dim and compressing the bright relative to what one's eye experiences.
Edit: One thing that just occurred to us while using the DHO814 relative to a larger screen DSO. This is very much like a handheld DMM vs bench DMM. Where for simple quick tasks, one "reaches" for the handheld, and more complex, precision and intensive tasks one "reaches" for the bench top DMM. In that respect one should have both types DMMs (suspect most already have such), and maybe both types DSOs ::)
Best,
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I honestly did not understand that from your post... But thank you for explaining.
And your explanation show you understand a great deal about how it works..
But as I said, there are many of us that won't thinker with it (lack of certain type of skills, time etc) but expect it work from the box...
This is one of the things that sure look (after your explanation) that Rigol could "fix" with correct config in software in one of the updates....
The display goes bright-dim-bright on bootup.
All the tinkering does is avoid the "dim" phase of that during bootup. It doesn't change the brightness of anything else.
(or whatever "brightness 255" is)
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Nice video, note display here.
https://youtu.be/3OJnjXrAf5k?t=270 (https://youtu.be/3OJnjXrAf5k?t=270)
It's something that goes with "touchscreen" territory. Micsigs are similar out of the box but Micsig includes a matte screen protector with every 'scope. It really helps.
I'm waiting on a couple of screen protectors to try with my Rigol.
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Don't you have a light/nits-meter, then you could get some tangible numbers that other people could replicate as I would guess many do have light-meters, as they are quite cheap and even the budget ones, perform quite decent.
Should be possible to dim the room, and create a lid scenario on the scope in the circumstances where you sense that its "dim", that other owners can replicate, and compare values -
To conclude if the unit's display is underperforming, as brightness/dim is relative, varies from one to the next..
Was unsure if it's a TFT or IPS in DHO8/900 series but from the looks of videos on the DHO800-900 series and the glow from certain angles, I would guess it's an LCD TFT display, which is quite common on scopes.
Checked the max brightness on Micsig-STO-scopes which peak at 414 on battery with just a white slide as light-sample, haven't tested fx a wide waveform to see what it musters in the scope app, but it's bright enough that it's fully useable outdoors, & indoors needs to be dimmed down quite a bit for my taste..
the scopes topglass screen also seems to be frosted like you see on fx mat or anti.glare screens. even though it's a glossy touchscreen.
- An example of the frosted native glassscreen & the LCD TFT RGB grid - https://tinyurl.com/nw958xat - three first pic is the same and vice versa for the two last, only the focal depth varies, - that glass-frosting also makes it difficult to get the pixels into focus...
Tried briefly a few years back to put a screen-protector on the Micsigs screen, to see what amount it would counter FX glare, but it made it hazy from the TFT light glow underneath clashing, as I doubt it is laminated, so that was a clear no-go for my taste and peeled of again.. - it undermined some of the dark contrast that I personally prioritize a lot, as I prefer the waveform-background to be as close to inky black as possible.
Likely also why many scope vendors pursue TFT vs IPS, as IPS has a tendency to undermine the dark in the infamous IPS-hazy-glow (light bleed) that partly tones black into grey'ish...though, it is getting better for higher-end IPS panels.
An OS brightness slider hopefully will see daylight in future FW.
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Here it is next to my Micsig. The Micsig is at full brightness.
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Are you using a screen protector on your Micsig.? was not a good experience on my unit, as mentioned above..
// it does look like you have some kind of screen protector on it, as your screen also has air bubbles. (we've all been there, they are a high-maintenance b to squeeze out)
Example with two Saelig Mcsig models that I guess are fitted with the incl. screen protector as theirs are also plotted in bubbles..https://tinyurl.com/2s3p3djy
it creates this hazy greyish look that will counter glare' but to me also undermines the contrast a lot, and the more I blasted the brightness the worse it got, did not like it
Was left with the impression that the angled-screen light on the non-laminated display to an extent conflicted with that added plastic layer..
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I'm waiting on a couple of screen protectors to try with my Rigol.
Will that screen protector affect the touchscreen performance?
Best,
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it does look like you have some kind of screen protector on it, as your screen also has air bubbles. (we've all been there, they are a high-maintenance b to squeeze out)
I put that on when I was a screen protector noob. ;D
There's a couple of small glitches on the black bezel on the left but none in the screen area. Micsig gave me two protectors so I've got another one somewhere. I've been meaning to put it on for years but never got around to it.
These days I can put on any size screen protector perfectly in about five minutes. 8)
I ordered some as soon as I measured the screen of the DHO. Aliexpress says they're in transit on a guaranteed 10-day delivery. Watch this space...
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FWIW: If you tell your DHO to go to the Android home screen (via ADB) all you get is the same black background with "Rigol" that you see during power on.
There's no icons or menus or anything like that.
It doesn't respond to any inputs, you have to power it off and restart.
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I wanted to get the data sheet for the display earlier, I need to know what it is called.
So I opened the scope and...no chance.
The display is glued to the front, like a cell phone. :P
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FWIW: If you tell your DHO to go to the Android home screen (via ADB) all you get is the same black background with "Rigol" that you see during power on.
There's no icons or menus or anything like that.
It doesn't respond to any inputs, you have to power it off and restart.
I wonder if you can `adb install` some launcher apk to get a decent home screen?
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FWIW: If you tell your DHO to go to the Android home screen (via ADB) all you get is the same black background with "Rigol" that you see during power on.
There's no icons or menus or anything like that.
It doesn't respond to any inputs, you have to power it off and restart.
I wonder if you can `adb install` some launcher apk to get a decent home screen?
No idea... I'm not an Android guy, I was just fiddling around.
I pulled the main .apk out to have a poke around inside it. Can anybody recommend an apk decompiler.
Maybe this should be in another thread...
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A DHO924S turned up here yesterday.
The UI is reasonably snappy, but I'm not keen on the implementation: you have no choice but to resort to using the touch screen.
I had to resort to RTFM to figure out how to set the probe ratio. Thankfully, the later firmware 1.01 is more obvious in this regard.
I haven't figured out how to set a one button user default rather than factory default, or if you can even do it, other than saving you favoured settings to storage and restoring them as necessary. As the probes are in 10X 99% of the time, and pressing default resets them to 1X. It also resets the LA channel threshold to 0V.
I headed straight over to doing serial decodes which is pretty much a staple in my line of work, but made the fatal error of trying to do it with the LA rather than the analogue channels.
Firstly, I note it doesn't support 10 bit I2C, which was a bummer because the demo board I was using uses that extensively (Tek MDO Demo 1 board).
Secondly, SPI decode doesn't seem to function at all on the LA.
The USB C port supports PD as a sink, but I can confirm that it isn't a USB host. Be aware that if you decide to use a multi port USB C adapter, many of these reset the ports when you plug or unplug another device, thus shutting down your scope.
It looks like the bandwidth is reduced in line with Nyquist when you start adding analogue channels beyond 2, determined by measuring the associated decrease in rise time.
When measured with an RF signal generator with a 50 ohm through attenuator, no attempt is made to filter the signal in line with Nyquist, so aliasing is a problem, including measurement.
Something also of note is that when you add the LA, the sample rate is halved again, so if you run 3 or four analogue channels and any number of LA channels. the maximum sample rate drops to 156.25MSa/s. Whether the trigger is on an analogue or digital channel didn't affect the maximum sample rate.
Analogue / Digital / Max Sample rate / Max mem depth/channel
0 / 1 to 16 / 625MSa/s / 25Mpts
1 / 0 / 1.25GSa/s / 50Mpts
1 / 1 to 16 / 625MSa/s / 25Mpts
2 / 0 / 625MSa/s / 25Mpts
2 / 1 to 16 / 312.5MSa/s / 10Mpts
3 or 4 / 0 / 312.5MSa/s / 10Mpts
3 or 4 / 1 to 16 / 156.25MSa/s / 1Mpts
Had another go on it tonight for an hour or so, which confirmed what I'd surmised yesterday: the firmware in its current state is far to buggy for this to be relied on for my purposes, so it'll remain off the bench until the firmware matures. My use case for this was as an alternative to the Analogue Discovery for field work, but it's just too unfinished.
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Something also of note is that when you add the LA, the sample rate is halved again, so if you run 3 or four analogue channels and any number of LA channels. the maximum sample rate drops to 156.25MSa/s. Whether the trigger is on an analogue or digital channel didn't affect the maximum sample rate.
That's a bummer -- both, the sample rate restriction and falling back to the measly 1 Mpt memory. I can't find these limitations mentioned at all in the DHO 900 datasheet.
In a mixed-signal scope, I expect to be able to observe a "mix" of digital and analog inputs without incurring an extra penalty. Disappointing, and probably the finding so far which detracts me most from a DHO900. Is that a compromise made in other mixed-signal scopes too?
As a side note, we can probably give up on the hope that someone will come up with a hack to upgrade the DHO 800/900 to the 2 GSa/s sample rate of its larger sibling. Looks like the FPGA is already running at capacity and is limiting the total data rate?
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Something also of note is that when you add the LA, the sample rate is halved again, so if you run 3 or four analogue channels and any number of LA channels. the maximum sample rate drops to 156.25MSa/s. Whether the trigger is on an analogue or digital channel didn't affect the maximum sample rate.
That's a bummer -- both, the sample rate restriction.....
I agree. Honestly, the scope is great value but after reading first user reports here I pass and go for a different option.
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Something also of note is that when you add the LA, the sample rate is halved again, so if you run 3 or four analogue channels and any number of LA channels. the maximum sample rate drops to 156.25MSa/s. Whether the trigger is on an analogue or digital channel didn't affect the maximum sample rate.
That's a bummer -- both, the sample rate restriction and falling back to the measly 1 Mpt memory. I can't find these limitations mentioned at all in the DHO 900 datasheet.
In a mixed-signal scope, I expect to be able to observe a "mix" of digital and analog inputs without incurring an extra penalty. Disappointing, and probably the finding so far which detracts me most from a DHO900. Is that a compromise made in other mixed-signal scopes too?
As a comparison, the Rigol DS-1000Z LA goes up to 1GSa/s if you only had on 8 LA channels and no analogue channels.
On the other side of the coin, on the DS-1000Z there is no option to have 3+16 or 4+8 channels at all. IME. in practice, I find that this isn't much of a limitation as the use cases are rare.
I'm not sure if the 1Mpt limitation is an architectural or technical limitation, or just a front end feature.
The LA integration as a whole is so unfinished, I'd be willing to state the various metrics I have presented are subject to change in forthcoming firmware releases. For example, that triggering on an unviewed channel doesn't seem to affect sampling rate suggests to me that something's not quite right. At one point, I fruitlessly tried adjusting the position of the D0 LA channel on the screen, and suddenly it stopped displaying any signal... it turned out to have reappointed the signal on D2, and nothing short of a restart resolved it.
It's not the end of the world, but having a sample period on an LA that's not an integer multiple of 1ns might get a bit of getting used to. It reminds me of the egregious deviation from 1/2/5 timebase increments on the Tek MDO3000/4000 series in favour of 1/2/4, and not even offering a horizontal vernier.
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..As a side note, we can probably give up on the hope that someone will come up with a hack to upgrade the DHO 800/900 to the 2 GSa/s sample rate of its larger sibling. Looks like the FPGA is already running at capacity and is limiting the total data rate?
It is a big question how they ported their DSO architecture from their previous models (like the 1000Z) into the new Zynq FPGA (2xarm9 mcus + Artix7 fpga in the XC7Z015). It could be they migrated that 1:1 without any special optimization or trickery. The Zynq model used is the lowest speed grade I would assume (none speed grade indicated on the package, that is interesting), which is 667MHz (the highest is 866MHz).
And perhaps ( ?? ) the Artix7 could be more performant as the Spartan6 used in the DS1000Z models..
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Something also of note is that when you add the LA, the sample rate is halved again, so if you run 3 or four analogue channels and any number of LA channels. the maximum sample rate drops to 156.25MSa/s. Whether the trigger is on an analogue or digital channel didn't affect the maximum sample rate.
That's a bummer -- both, the sample rate restriction.....
I agree. Honestly, the scope is great value but after reading first user reports here I pass and go for a different option.
It cannot be a "great value" when you pass, though.. :D
The prospective buyers (like you and me) should really wait a little bit till the first surge of "happiness" after the purchase of a new cute lovely gadget with VESA mount cools down (a buyer's psychology phenomenon) and people start to evaluate the stuff much more critically. I've seen only 1 statement in this forum the buyer indicated he will return the scope..
As I wrote before, this scope would be "a great value" when produced in 802/812/822 configuration only, at say $199/$249/$299, targeting explicitly the entry level segment (thus setting the expectation properly), moreover shipped without those most visible bugs (and I would perhaps tolerate the bugs knowing they will fix them soon). With adding another 2 channels and the LA and the AWG they simply overloaded the low cost tiny hw infrastructure of this scope, imho.
Even though it is a good value for the beginner, the people migrating from say their basic 2ch CRT scope to something more digital, and people requiring a 2nd, portable scope for occasional work battery powered, but - all the users here reviewing the scope are the advanced users - and it could easily be after a month or two many of them would consider this specific series a flop..
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Something also of note is that when you add the LA, the sample rate is halved again, so if you run 3 or four analogue channels and any number of LA channels. the maximum sample rate drops to 156.25MSa/s. Whether the trigger is on an analogue or digital channel didn't affect the maximum sample rate.
That's a bummer -- both, the sample rate restriction.....
I agree. Honestly, the scope is great value but after reading first user reports here I pass and go for a different option.
It cannot be a "great value" when you pass, though.. :D
The prospective buyers (like you and me) .....
When I started building circuits as a boy, having an oscilloscope was out of the question. Even the first PIC programmer I had to build my own. Now, very useful tools and test equipment are available for the cost of a better cellphone that nearly every teenager has.
Unfortunately, I am not a kid anymore. I value my free time and want to use quality, frustration-free, tools if possible. Nevertheless, I believe there will be plenty of users just happy with the DHO8xx/DHO9xx. I had had DS1074z until recently. However, I will chip in slightly more and go for the other brand (for Christmas) that is believed to be more polished at time of the release.
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Now, very useful tools and test equipment are available for the less than cost of a better cellphone that nearly every teenager has.
Correction made. :P
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Something also of note is that when you add the LA, the sample rate is halved again, so if you run 3 or four analogue channels and any number of LA channels. the maximum sample rate drops to 156.25MSa/s. Whether the trigger is on an analogue or digital channel didn't affect the maximum sample rate.
That's a bummer -- both, the sample rate restriction.....
I agree. Honestly, the scope is great value but after reading first user reports here I pass and go for a different option.
It cannot be a "great value" when you pass, though.. :D
The prospective buyers (like you and me) should really wait a little bit till the first surge of "happiness" after the purchase of a new cute lovely gadget with VESA mount cools down (a buyer's psychology phenomenon) and people start to evaluate the stuff much more critically. I've seen only 1 statement in this forum the buyer indicated he will return the scope..
As I wrote before, this scope would be "a great value" when produced in 802/812/822 configuration only, at say $199/$249/$299, targeting explicitly the entry level segment (thus setting the expectation properly), moreover shipped without those most visible bugs (and I would perhaps tolerate the bugs knowing they will fix them soon). With adding another 2 channels and the LA and the AWG they simply overloaded the low cost tiny hw infrastructure of this scope, imho.
Even though it is a good value for the beginner, the people migrating from say their basic 2ch CRT scope to something more digital, and people requiring a 2nd, portable scope for occasional work battery powered, but - all the users here reviewing the scope are the advanced users - and it could easily be after a month or two many of them would consider this specific series a flop..
It can still be great value, at least for the 804 and 814. It works reasonably well AFAIK, and for les than 500€ after VAT you get a 4 channel scope, 12 bit resolution, and HDMI out.
I'm not sure about the 900 series though. The FRA (main use for the AWG) and the LA seem to have quite a few problems that prevent them from being truly useful.
Still, if the trigger, cursors, statistics, math, and FFT work alright, along with the 12 bits, the 800 series is a killer scope for the money, and great value for a beginner. Also, I think that with a new Rigol scope, the "flop" timeframe is longer than one or two months.
The 2 channel ones look pretty good for a second 12-bit basic scope too.
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Now, very useful tools and test equipment are available for the less than cost of a better cellphone that nearly every teenager has.
Correction made. :P
imho its useless to correct subjective matter. tools and TE are broad range from $50-50K, and same with smartphone can range $50-2K or 5K, so what is "useful" to anybody? kids can be more than happy with $50 tools but people on red carpet will only satisfy with $50K tools.
I had had DS1074z until recently. However, I will chip in slightly more and go for the other brand (for Christmas) that is believed to be more polished at time of the release.
if you can live with ds1054z, i dont understand why you cant live with dho800. for the longest time i've mourned for its laggy UI and keep remembering how responsive my ds1052e was. now i have dho804, no more laggy UI again and its 12bit, touchscreen, sharp LCD, downloading data to PC multiple time faster, saving full memory CSV to USB drive only take seconds instead of ages in 1054z. so i dont understand what are you expecting. from my quick play, dho804 is every bits better than ds1054z, except, i'm going to miss "Mode" button in trigger section to switch to "Normal" trigger mode quickly. I think the "Default" button below the "Single" (triggering) button is going to be the most useless button for me.
btw, we master our tools, we find way around to make it work the way we want. not the other way around, fwiw...
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I haven't finished my tests by a long shot, but the DHO804 makes the DS1054Z look really old, like something from another era.
It is also from another time... ;)
At the moment, I consider the DHO804 to be the legitimate and worthy successor to the DS1054Z.
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if you can live with ds1054z, i dont understand why you cant live with dho800. for the longest time i've mourned for its laggy UI and keep remembering how responsive my ds1052e was. now i have dho804, no more laggy UI again and its 12bit, touchscreen, sharp LCD, downloading data to PC multiple time faster, saving full memory CSV to USB drive only take seconds instead of ages in 1054z. so i dont understand what are you expecting. from my quick play, dho804 is every bits better than ds1054z [...]
From my perspective -- also a DS1054Z user since shortly after its introduction -- yes, of course the DHO800 is significantly better in many respects, and not significantly worse anywhere. So I would clearly recommend the DHO to someone looking for their first scope in this price range today.
But the improvements of the DHO800 over the DS1054Z are probably not enough to make me buy a new scope. (Just as the improvements in the Siglent SDS1000X did not make me replace the Rigol). It's the additional AWG and logic inputs in the DHO914S, neither of which I have in the DS1054Z, which would have made me pull the trigger. So it is disappointing that these two features were implemented so half-heartedly.
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I think the "Default" button below the "Single" (triggering) button is going to be the most useless button for me.
Yes, I have wondered what Rigol were thinking there. A bit like placing a "Reset" button right in the middle of a computer keyboard...
Maybe they are heavily targeting education with these models and wanted a quick way for the lab instructor to sort out a messed-up scope? (Or to restart the student exercise "and now set everything up properly for your use case!" ;))
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if you can live with ds1054z, i dont understand why you cant live with dho800. for the longest time i've mourned for its laggy UI and keep remembering how responsive my ds1052e was. now i have dho804, no more laggy UI again and its 12bit, touchscreen, sharp LCD, downloading data to PC multiple time faster, saving full memory CSV to USB drive only take seconds instead of ages in 1054z. so i dont understand what are you expecting. from my quick play, dho804 is every bits better than ds1054z, except, i'm going to miss "Mode" button in trigger section to switch to "Normal" trigger mode quickly. I think the "Default" button below the "Single" (triggering) button is going to be the most useless button for me.
btw, we master our tools, we find way around to make it work the way we want. not the other way around, fwiw...
I sold the scope after release of the DHO series. I expect that the residual value of DS1000z scopes drops significantly. Additionally, I've been looking for something "better" for a while. It was the right time to sell.
I believe I can't live with DHO800 or 900 series because of:
- hot-glued SD card in the system makes me uncomfortable
- the UI does not support keyboard although the system does
- sample memory significantly drops when multiple channels are enabled. I use SPI frequently.
- the bode-plot is half baked and only option for the 900 series. I wish it communicated with the external AWG that I already have
- the screen size and the font is too small for my poor eyesight. It was annoying with DS1000z too. The HDMI option is a workaround, not a solution.
- I hate touchscreens
- The product has the look and feel of a concept vehicle rather then the production one. The fiasco with type-C chargers just demonstrates pure amateurism.
This is very personalized list. I am sure it won't apply to everyone.
I am also sure that many things get better over time. The DS1000z series had also bugs. Still, I give SDS2000x plus or SDS1000x HD chance (if ever released :-DD).
Please note that I am just sharing my thoughts. This is not an attempt to start a flame. I would still recommend DHO800 for someone with <500Eur budget.
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It's the additional AWG and logic inputs in the DHO914S, neither of which I have in the DS1054Z, which would have made me pull the trigger. So it is disappointing that these two features were implemented so half-heartedly.
i'm guessing Bode plot is your butter and bread. reading forumers for the long time i have an impression Siglent is ahead in this area, as long as "built-in" AWG and Bode plot is concerned, or even descent FFT. but i choosed Rigol brand and nothing else mainly due to its PC Programmability through VISA driver. since ds1052e i've made a Bode plotter using external FG and DS1052E, but it proved that Bode plotting is not my area, so i never have a real need for it. but in case i need it, i know Rigol DSO is up for the task due to its programmability. Your Mileage May Vary.
hot-glued SD card in the system makes me uncomfortable
man this is a feature that i've been waiting for ages... there is no way to backup FW easily on previous Rigol's. some old but quality branded TE using this technique using CF card. i can agree with your other points. yes different people different needs.
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As I wrote before, this scope would be "a great value" when produced in 802/812/822 configuration only, at say $199/$249/$299
It's easily worth more than that compared to current 'scopes on the market.
The hardware is definitely there.
The 900-series seems to need a few fixes in the LA and bode areas but I don't think there's any showstoppers in the 800-series.
Nobody's forcing anybody to be an early adopter. Even the 'S' brand had some big problems on launch day. Tektronix recently launched an MSO but they didn't enable the logic analyzer yet because it wasn't finished. If you bought one you had to wait for the firmware to catch up.
With adding another 2 channels and the LA and the AWG they simply overloaded the low cost tiny hw infrastructure of this scope, imho.
That's just an opinion and not many other people are sharing it.
Feel free not to buy one if it's beneath you as a grown-up. I hear there's some nice ones in the $1500 range.
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Still, if the trigger, cursors, statistics, math, and FFT work alright, along with the 12 bits
I've had mine less than a week and all that seems to work nicely, plus the serial decoders, etc.
the 800 series is a killer scope for the money, and great value for a beginner.
Yep.
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I think the "Default" button below the "Single" (triggering) button is going to be the most useless button for me.
Yes, I have wondered what Rigol were thinking there. A bit like placing a "Reset" button right in the middle of a computer keyboard...
You have to confirm that's what you really want to do, so... :-//
Maybe they are heavily targeting education with these models and wanted a quick way for the lab instructor to sort out a messed-up scope? (Or to restart the student exercise "and now set everything up properly for your use case!" ;))
Yep. Or in any environment where 'scopes are shared and you have no idea what state the previous user left it in.
It's probably very useful for telephone support, too.
nb. Other 'scopes have that button too (in green so it stands out and invites people to press it):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1904367;image)
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I believe I can't live with DHO800 or 900 series because of:
* hot-glued SD card in the system makes me uncomfortable
You're imagining a scenario which will probably never happen. There's a LOT of devices out there that do this.
It makes me more comfortable knowing I own an unbrickable 'scope, one that I can hack to my heart's content with zero risk.
* the UI does not support keyboard although the system does
Huh? That's something you've never had and you reject a new 'scope because it doesn't have it?
You'd prefer a 'scope that only has a twisty knob for everything?? An on-screen keyboard is a major step up from that.
sample memory significantly drops when multiple channels are enabled. I use SPI frequently.
Yeah, that's weird. I'm holding out for a hack to give the DHO800 the memory sizes of the DHO900 which will then beat everything else in this price range (10MPts per channel with all 4 channels on)
The screen size and the font is too small for my poor eyesight. It was annoying with DS1000z too. The HDMI option is a workaround, not a solution.
At least you have a workaround where you didn't have one before. :-//
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some old but quality branded TE using this technique using CF card.
Or even internal hard disks.
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I think the "Default" button below the "Single" (triggering) button is going to be the most useless button for me.
Yes, I have wondered what Rigol were thinking there. A bit like placing a "Reset" button right in the middle of a computer keyboard...
You have to confirm that's what you really want to do, so... :-//
Agree, there is not a high risk of creating havoc unintentionally. But it feels like wasted real estate, on a crammed front panel where they already had to sacrifice some buttons. (E.g. Horizontal Zoom and Vernier share the same, and toggling between normal/auto triggering does not have a direct button I understand.)
As mentioned earlier by HowardLong, it would be nice if Rigol could make this a configurable "User Default" -- so you can define it to reset to 10x probes on all channels, for example.
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The 900-series seems to need a few fixes in the LA and bode areas
Let's hope the Bode plot wiggles can be fixed in software (rather being due to the crosstalk (?) issue from AWG into the channels which I saw described somewhere here). Enabling SPI decoding on the digital channels should clearly be a software fix.
I am still on the fence regarding the reduced sample rate when digital + analog are combined. How often will I need large bandwidth on multiple analog channels while using the logic analyzer? I think what annoys me most is the dishonesty of not disclosing this in the datasheet. (Which specifies the sampling rate vs. number of analog channels in detail.)
But I am really disappointed with the ridiculous fallback to 1 Mpts memory per analog channel when digital + analog are combined. Why, Rigol ?!? :palm:
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I am still on the fence regarding the reduced sample rate when digital + analog are combined. How often will I need large bandwidth on multiple analog channels while using the logic analyzer? I think what annoys me most is the dishonesty of not disclosing this in the datasheet. (Which specifies the sampling rate vs. number of analog channels in detail.)
From the practical standpoint, I have a suspicion that you will run into signal intergity problems with LA way before you run into sample rate limit. PC-based LAs are still far superior to anything I've seen in scopes, even though I do have a mixed-mode scope, it was years ago last time I used LA.
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From the practical standpoint, I have a suspicion that you will run into signal intergity problems with LA way before you run into sample rate limit. PC-based LAs are still far superior to anything I've seen in scopes, even though I do have a mixed-mode scope, it was years ago last time I used LA.
You mean limitations on the digital decoding due to sampling rate limits on those channels? I understand that the digital part can always sample at 625 MSa/s in the DHO900, while the analog channels drop down to 156 MSa/s when all channels are used. Having said that, I do remember discussions about other (Rigol?) scopes which required a surprisingly high sampling rate, relative to the signal clock, to do a decent decoding job.
Memory size and GUI aside, why would PC-based LAs be better than those in MSOs when it comes to signal integrity and decoding? Is it "just" because the designers spent more thought on decoding data streams with relatively low sampling rates?
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Memory size and GUI aside, why would PC-based LAs be better than those in MSOs when it comes to signal integrity and decoding? Is it "just" because the designers spent more thought on decoding data streams with relatively low sampling rates?
They are not, SI issues are an end-user problem, nothing designers can do about it. But they are better at other aspects (higher-quality and more convenient software, larger screen, better controls, secondary processing abilities due to virtually infinite memory/software, etc.), which is why on balance I prefer PC-based LAs, and LA in my MSO hasn't been in use for years.
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I got one of those $1 phone stylus things yesterday to try with the 'scope.
It works really well, much more accurate than a finger. Also ideal for people who are paranoid about fingerprints.
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I believe I can't live with DHO800 or 900 series because of:
* hot-glued SD card in the system makes me uncomfortable
You're imagining a scenario which will probably never happen. There's a LOT of devices out there that do this.
It makes me more comfortable knowing I own an unbrickable 'scope, one that I can hack to my heart's content with zero risk.
* the UI does not support keyboard although the system does
Huh? That's something you've never had and you reject a new 'scope because it doesn't have it?
You'd prefer a 'scope that only has a twisty knob for everything?? An on-screen keyboard is a major step up from that.
sample memory significantly drops when multiple channels are enabled. I use SPI frequently.
Yeah, that's weird. I'm holding out for a hack to give the DHO800 the memory sizes of the DHO900 which will then beat everything else in this price range (10MPts per channel with all 4 channels on)
The screen size and the font is too small for my poor eyesight. It was annoying with DS1000z too. The HDMI option is a workaround, not a solution.
At least you have a workaround where you didn't have one before. :-//
Look, the only person that knows better what I want is my spouse.
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I think the "Default" button below the "Single" (triggering) button is going to be the most useless button for me.
Yes, I have wondered what Rigol were thinking there. A bit like placing a "Reset" button right in the middle of a computer keyboard...
not just that one, there is also reset switch on quick menu on top right of the screen :palm: at least give me "Normal" mode triggering on that quick menu.. and those tiny scrolling window, i think i can accidentally click the default while trying to scroll to other functions.
Maybe they are heavily targeting education with these models and wanted a quick way for the lab instructor to sort out a messed-up scope? (Or to restart the student exercise "and now set everything up properly for your use case!" ;))
default to the smallest vertical scale (50mV/div iirc) is not wise anyway imho... what if student come and probe mains, something may irreversibly overloaded if unlucky... who knows what china's metric (i mean QC or the sort) cant do?
Also ideal for people who are paranoid about fingerprints.
if they cannot deal with IPA to clean LCD, cross stitch is a better hobby. but yeah, large thumbprint is an issue causing inaccurate clicking..
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PC-based LAs are still far superior to anything I've seen in scopes, even though I do have a mixed-mode scope, it was years ago last time I used LA.
It's horses for courses: they are different beasts. I use both, and frankly I'm more likely to find myself using the scope.
PC based LAs typically have very limited triggering facilities and lower sample rates than scopes offer. The benefit of having direct time correlation also should not be forgotten.
However, PC based LA tend to have much deeper memory, but this, compared with their limited triggering facilities, means that analysis often done in a more offline fashion, rather than interactively as you'd do with a scope.
With advanced triggering techniques and segmented memory offered on a scope, the need for an unlimited supply of memory for post processing is diminished.
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From the practical standpoint, I have a suspicion that you will run into signal intergity problems with LA way before you run into sample rate limit. PC-based LAs are still far superior to anything I've seen in scopes, even though I do have a mixed-mode scope, it was years ago last time I used LA.
I use the Magnivu feature on the MDO3000/4000 series fairly often. It's a feature of the digital channels that goes down to 121.2ns resolution on the 3000, and 60.6ps on the 4000, but limited to 10k points. I believe it's implemented in a high speed shift register. It's implemented with a set of latches hooked up to a long delay line of buffers. This is particularly useful for rapidly assessing setup and hold timings.
If you're concerned about signal integrity problems, an LA is an especially blunt tool.
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PC based LAs typically have very limited triggering facilities and lower sample rates than scopes offer.
Modern PC-based LA have UNLIMITED triggering capabilities because they can stream data to software in real time. The only limitation is software, but that is an easy problem to solve.
The benefit of having direct time correlation also should not be forgotten.
I can't remember ever needing this in like 10 years I have an MSO. I'm not interested in theory, I'm looking at it strictly from practical standpoint. I thought it would be useful (which is why I bought an MSO), but in 10 years I never needed it, and if I ever will need it, I'm sure I will come up with some solution that does not involve paying a ton of extra money for MSO.
With advanced triggering techniques and segmented memory offered on a scope, the need for an unlimited supply of memory for post processing is diminished.
Nothing beats real-time data streaming, no segmented memory not any triggering is going to replace grep. Or Python. Or C#. Or <insert your favourite data analysis language>.
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If you're concerned about signal integrity problems, an LA is an especially blunt tool.
Unless you thought about debugging in advance and added some kind of inline high-speed connector, SI is always going to be a problem. I don't know about you, but in my experience in 99% cases I had to use flying-leads, hookup wires and similar debugging "devices" which obviously only work for slower signals. Which is kind of my point - in most practical cases I've encountered I simply could not utilize high sample rates as mere act of probing destroys signal to the point that what I see on the screen and what actually happens on the line when the probe is off are totally different things. So even if LA had > 9000 GS/s, it would be just as useful as another LA which can do only 500 MS/s.
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Modern PC-based LA have UNLIMITED triggering capabilities because they can stream data to software in real time. The only limitation is software, but that is an easy problem to solve.
With such certainties I guess you have no problems... IMO with concurrent systems that doesn't seem so linear. Just my 2 cents...
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if they cannot deal with IPA to clean LCD, cross stitch is a better hobby. but yeah, large thumbprint is an issue causing inaccurate clicking..
FYI to my knowledge, there are plastic materials (e.g. Acrylic glass - PMMA) that should not be cleaned by any kind of alcohol as they cause damage.
FYI2: Touch-enabled buttons can be a problem for people with dry skin or people that work manually. I work on house renovations and have my palms and fingers like true working class (and I say this proudly).
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Modern PC-based LA have UNLIMITED triggering capabilities because they can stream data to software in real time. The only limitation is software, but that is an easy problem to solve.
Triggering and streaming data real time are two different things. I am not sure if devices like Saleae do the trigger in software.
I've debugged communication issues in systems when the problem happened few times an hour or even less. Additionally, we had to monitor voltage rails to find the culprit. Nevertheless, I assume that once you work with complex systems you use a different test equipment.
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Modern PC-based LA have UNLIMITED triggering capabilities because they can stream data to software in real time. The only limitation is software, but that is an easy problem to solve.
Triggering and streaming data real time are two different things. I am not sure if devices like Saleae do the trigger in software.
I've debugged communication issues in systems when the problem happened few times an hour or even less. Additionally, we had to monitor voltage rails to find the culprit. Nevertheless, I assume that once you work with complex systems you use a different test equipment.
I agree. In most cases I use a logic analyser in a capture - analysis workflow. An MSO is just less work to setup and can show signals in realtime so that is typically my first choice when debugging digital systems. But if you are hunting a really illusive bug that happens seldomly (like once in an hour) there just isn't enough space on a disk to capture at high rates (like 200Ms/s). Not to mention the time it takes to sift through the data (99.99999% of the data will be useless). In such cases the wonderfully elaborate trigger system of a high end logic analyser together with record-on-change or segmented recording are good tools to have around. I always say: I rarely use my Tektronix logic analyser, but when I do it just pays itself back once more.
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I think the "Default" button below the "Single" (triggering) button is going to be the most useless button for me.
Yes, I have wondered what Rigol were thinking there. A bit like placing a "Reset" button right in the middle of a computer keyboard...
You have to confirm that's what you really want to do, so... :-//
Maybe they are heavily targeting education with these models and wanted a quick way for the lab instructor to sort out a messed-up scope? (Or to restart the student exercise "and now set everything up properly for your use case!" ;))
Yep. Or in any environment where 'scopes are shared and you have no idea what state the previous user left it in.
It's probably very useful for telephone support, too.
nb. Other 'scopes have that button too (in green so it stands out and invites people to press it):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1904367;image)
User configurable too or can be left as Factory Default.
In addition these have 5 recallable User Setups so with a minimum of fuss and bother you can quickly have the scope set for specific tasks.
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Many scopes have a "Default" button (reconfigurable), even if under other description, like the Tektronix 5 Series B MSO Mixed Signal 8 Channel Oscilloscope "Default Setup" button, or the R&S®MXO 4 "Preset" that can be configured to set either factory defaults or a user-defined preset configuration.
And this are not educational or hobby oscilloscopes.
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Many scopes have a "Default" button (reconfigurable), even if under other description, like the Tektronix 5 Series B MSO Mixed Signal 8 Channel Oscilloscope "Default Setup" button, or the R&S®MXO 4 "Preset" that can be configured to set either factory defaults or a user-defined preset configuration.
And this are not educational or hobby oscilloscopes.
Actually, as scopes get more complicated with time Default button is sometimes fastest way to start measurements from well defined starting point.
Especially if user can define what default is.
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My original hypothesis that the front end attenuates in line with Nyquist to avoid aliasing was incorrect. It doesn't attenuate as the sample rate decreases.
I'd originally derived this from measuring rise time - fail on my part!
Today I hooked up an Agilent E4433B RF signal generator, set it to 200MHz 10dBm with a 50 ohm through termination at the scope.
Here are the results, 2ch, 3ch, 4ch and 4ch+LA. Vrms doesn't change by any significant amount.
Note the differences between Freq and Counter measurements when the LA is turned on. I thought the counter measurement might always give the correct answer, but no.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
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Actually, as scopes get more complicated with time Default button is sometimes fastest way to start measurements from well defined starting point.
Especially if user can define what default is.
Alright, I'll make my peace with the Default button on the DHO 800/900 then. :)
Although I still think a top-level menu entry on the touch screen would have sufficed, and Rigol could have given us a Normal/Auto trigger toggle or a dedicated Zoom button instead of the Default button. There's limited real estate on that small control panel...
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Nothing beats real-time data streaming, no segmented memory not any triggering is going to replace grep. Or Python. Or C#. Or <insert your favourite data analysis language>.
I respectfully disagree. As I've said before, it's horses for courses, use the tool for the job that gets you there the quickest considering one's individual experience and skill set.
If you find frequently find yourself having to hack some code to do your search, I don't consider that to be either "real-time", or a particularly efficient way of working, especially when there's a trigger setup immediately available to you.
For the avoidance of doubt, occasionally I do hack some code to do exactly what you're suggesting on a large dataset extracted from an LA, but it is rare, because most of the time I can use the various triggers available to me to achieve the same goal.
Furthermore, IME near-unlimited streaming of bulk data into a PC from LAs is typically restrictive in terms of sample rate, unless you have a particularly expensive LA. While a reasonably-priced LA might be OK for oodles of I2C traffic, high speed SPI not so much.
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...but in my experience in 99% cases I had to use flying-leads, hookup wires
What "flying leads" are you using and why are you probing with "hookup wires" in this case? Typically if there isn't a testpoint, I solder a header pin as close as I can get it, certainly within millimeters if not directly to the device's pin itself.
The pods that are supplied with decent scope LAs enjoy low capacitance, adjacent grounds, and use tricks like distributed resistance and damping/compensation to minimise their loading effects.
Remember, we are talking about relative timing here such as setup and hold.
... So even if LA had > 9000 GS/s, it would be just as useful as another LA which can do only 500 MS/s.
Respectfully, you're heading into the world hyperbolic projection now.
While I fully accept that it's never going to be as good as having multiple multi-GHz active probes and a boat anchor scope to match, properly designed digital passive probes can and do have a place in resolving sub nanosecond timings.
I encourage you to read this article on the subject. https://www.tek.com/en/documents/application-note/magnivu-technology-provides-500-ps-timing-resolution-0 (https://www.tek.com/en/documents/application-note/magnivu-technology-provides-500-ps-timing-resolution-0)
Since that was written, the same technology has been pushed down to 60ps sampling period that I'm aware of, and I use it on the Tek MDO4104C on the bench. While I'm no fan of the UI on Tek scopes, their scopes do offer some features unavailable on competing scopes at the same level. While I'm only showing a single channel here, it will do 60.6ps resolution on all 16 channels, albeit at only 10kpts in this mode.
[attachimg=1]
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My original hypothesis that the front end attenuates in line with Nyquist to avoid aliasing was incorrect. It doesn't attenuate as the sample rate decreases.
of course it doesnt, its been like that since ds1000e and ds1000z, you dont have to activate all channels. enough with one channel, dial to large enough timescale, sample rate will be reduced, if signal frequency is high enough, you'll see aliasing, if you dont be carefull, you can register a wrong frequency on report paper, we learnt the hard way, in case of suspicion, dial back the time scale to the smallest where sample rate is highest, if you see suddenly signal jump back to higher frequency while dialing down, you experienced aliasing. same thing when you are driven nuts wondering why you cant get stable trigger however you try changing mode and level. try to satisfy nyquist by auto attenuation will not avoid you from confusion anyway imho. at large enough timescale, when you put your dut signal with hi freq, you may not see anything and got into confusion thinking you dont have a signal, but infact it is there, its just highly attenuated in scope. ymmv, fwiw.
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Nothing beats real-time data streaming, no segmented memory not any triggering is going to replace grep. Or Python. Or C#. Or <insert your favourite data analysis language>.
I respectfully disagree. As I've said before, it's horses for courses, use the tool for the job that gets you there the quickest considering one's individual experience and skill set.
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Furthermore, IME near-unlimited streaming of bulk data into a PC from LAs is typically restrictive in terms of sample rate, unless you have a particularly expensive LA. While a reasonably-priced LA might be OK for oodles of I2C traffic, high speed SPI not so much.
Yes but in the context of this thread, we are talking about the DHO900. We have other threads you can argue about PC LA vs MSO that are more relevant.
You are paying $200 (PLUS adapter $50-300) for a LA that:
- takes away from your analog sample rate
- will have limited protocol support compared to sigrok
IMO that ~$300 is better spent toward a known good PC LA or dedicated AWG or something else. Maybe in the future that might change, if rigol puts a lot of effort into the LA (which they have not done in the past).
99% of hobbyist use cases can get away with using a few analog channels for I2C or SPI.
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Even though it is a good value for the beginner, the people migrating from say their basic 2ch CRT scope to something more digital, and people requiring a 2nd, portable scope for occasional work battery powered, but - all the users here reviewing the scope are the advanced users - and it could easily be after a month or two many of them would consider this specific series a flop..
On my DHO804, I did the 924 vendor.bin file override @Azusa did early on, at the beginning of this thread, and I am not seeing any significant offsets anywhere, with very good noise figures (<24uV 50ohm term.) and rise-times (1.30 ns), using the 00.01.00 2023/07/21 build the scope came with. (I believe the 800 ps rise-time that @Azusa had reported earlier, may have been bypassing the LC filters, as he had done and mentioned in another one of his posts.)
In my opinion, despite its first-release faults and limitations, the DHO804 is an overall good value as a low-noise scope complement to the much more capable, but noisy, MSO5000.
Edit: Added color-graded pic of Ch1 (50ohm terminated).
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My original hypothesis that the front end attenuates in line with Nyquist to avoid aliasing was incorrect. It doesn't attenuate as the sample rate decreases.
of course it doesnt, its been like that since ds1000e and ds1000z, you dont have to activate all channels. enough with one channel, dial to large enough timescale, sample rate will be reduced, if signal frequency is high enough, you'll see aliasing, if you dont be carefull, you can register a wrong frequency on report paper, we learnt the hard way, in case of suspicion, dial back the time scale to the smallest where sample rate is highest, if you see suddenly signal jump back to higher frequency while dialing down, you experienced aliasing. same thing when you are driven nuts wondering why you cant get stable trigger however you try changing mode and level. try to satisfy nyquist by auto attenuation will not avoid you from confusion anyway imho. at large enough timescale, when you put your dut signal with hi freq, you may not see anything and got into confusion thinking you dont have a signal, but infact it is there, its just highly attenuated in scope. ymmv, fwiw.
This is the problem. With 4 channels enabled on 200 MHz DHO900 you cannot satisfy Nyquist at any timebase or memory setting. If you enable digital, you have sampling enough for a 50Mhz scope...
DHO800 with 100MHz BW would be OK at first glance, but unlike DS1000Z that had 130 MHz -3dB point, DHO800 has it at higher (almost 180 MHz) and is also 12 Bit meaning it will alias on signal levels you would not have to worry with 8 bt scope...
But we could argue DHO800 should be OK.
OTOH DHO900 is not... You cannot have 200MHz scope with less than 500MSp/s and even that is on the limit..
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But we could argue DHO800 should be OK.
OTOH DHO900 is not... You cannot have 200MHz scope with less than 500MSp/s and even that is on the limit..
Do you mean buying the DHO924S model is not a good idea?! DHO914S will be a better choice if I need an LA option?
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But we could argue DHO800 should be OK.
OTOH DHO900 is not... You cannot have 200MHz scope with less than 500MSp/s and even that is on the limit..
Do you mean buying the DHO924S model is not a good idea?! DHO914S will be a better choice if I need an LA option?
Look here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5119131/#msg5119131 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5119131/#msg5119131)
With 4 ch on and LA enabled it will drop to 156.25MSa/s and 1Mpts of memory...
If you need to do digital work stick with Rigol MSO5000 or Siglent SDS2000X+ if you want both digital and analog.
If you are doing mostly digital, 12 bit will not be so important.
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This is the problem. With 4 channels enabled on 200 MHz DHO900 you cannot satisfy Nyquist at any timebase or memory setting. If you enable digital, you have sampling enough for a 50Mhz scope...
obviously DHO800/900S is not the right tool for you. you are asking too much. you need to step up to > $5K scope range.
OTOH DHO900 is not... You cannot have 200MHz scope with less than 500MSp/s and even that is on the limit..
for some people yes it is... trying to probe at its limit with 2 channels at 2.5X sampling rate is possible. if its not acceptable, probe with only 1 channel (1.25GSa/s) should be more comfortable 5X sampling rate... then again if you need 2 channel at > 1GSa/s... DHO800/900 is not for you.. fwiw.. (ps: why this kind of basic discussion has to happen sooo many times? ::))
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My original hypothesis that the front end attenuates in line with Nyquist to avoid aliasing was incorrect. It doesn't attenuate as the sample rate decreases.
I'd originally derived this from measuring rise time - fail on my part!
Today I hooked up an Agilent E4433B RF signal generator, set it to 200MHz 10dBm with a 50 ohm through attenuator at the scope.
Here are the results, 1ch, 2ch, 3ch, 4ch and 4ch+LA. Vrms doesn't change by any significant amount.
Note the differences between Freq and Counter measurements when the LA is turned on. I thought the counter measurement might always give the correct answer, but no.
Howard - thanks a lot for pointing this out. A few days ago, I made similar findings here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5106558/#msg5106558) regarding high frequency aliasing, albeit without plugging in and considering the effect the digital probe may have (actually, I assumed it wouldn't change analog sample rate since it's not been documented). The counter discrepancy that you observed between the so-called "Hardware Frequency Counter" and the "measurement window counter" when enabling the digital channels is quite interesting and may give us a hint where the "bottleneck" is. May I suggest to perform the same test with the digital channels while only one and two analog channels are active to see if this discrepancy between the two counters is present as well (obviously, with high enough input frequency to cause aliasing)?
My take on the shortcoming of the scope hardware is memory bandwidth! The "hardware" counter operates on the data stream from the ADC directly, before it gets sent to the sampling memory while the measurement window counter probably operates on the decimated shadow memory which resembles the sample memory (from a temporal point of view) if the time base is set fast enough.
What really surprises me about this is that there's two additional RAM footprints available that -- at least in the photos of the pre-release version of the DHO900 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg4976278/#msg4976278) -- had been found to be populated. Assuming that these additional memory chips provide storage for digital input sample data and waveform data for the AWG, I wouldn't expect this to slow down the analog channels. An FPGA should be able to process all this independently in parallel, as long as it's chosen with a sufficient amount of logic cells... So we actually may be up to a surprise if we look into a recently produced DHO900 scope -- the additional RAM foorprints may still be unpopulated.
If it's due to the lack of FPGA resources, Rigol will have to accept the charge of having skimped on the choice of the Zynq version that they used on the DHO900. Whatever the reason for this observation is (I mean the further reduction of sample rate when enabling the digital channels), I consider this a major flaw that most probably cannot be corrected with a firmware update. This was the last "nail in the coffin" that finally triggered my decision to return the DHO914S after the Bode Plot disaster.
I may get a DHO804 at a later time since there are many quite nice solutions in this scope as long as it's used purely as an "analog" scope without the additional functions that the DHO900 series is supposed to provide. The U/I is quite fast compared to Rigol's legacy instruments, the FFT is lightning-fast and provides quite decent performance (IMO), and the over-all appearance makes it a decent, modern instument to "carry around" in the lab / workshop.
What didn't seem to get better during the ten days that I had to "play" with the DHO914S is the "baked electronics smell" that it emanates and that may actually be quite distracting when evaluating a new electronics design, not knowing where the "burning" smell comes from. In a home lab, maybe even in a living area, I'ld consider theis smell an absolute no-go. Rigol should definitely address their PCB manufacturing/flux cleaning processes to eliminate this problem.
"My" DHO900 is back in its box and will get returned these days. It's been an interesting experience but also one that cost me way too much time for an unfinished product that in it's current configuration (IMO) is not worth spending the time and the money on. At least as long as none of use is getting paid by Rigol to do their work!
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Many scopes have a "Default" button (reconfigurable), even if under other description, like the Tektronix 5 Series B MSO Mixed Signal 8 Channel Oscilloscope "Default Setup" button, or the R&S®MXO 4 "Preset" that can be configured to set either factory defaults or a user-defined preset configuration.
And this are not educational or hobby oscilloscopes.
Actually, as scopes get more complicated with time Default button is sometimes fastest way to start measurements from well defined starting point.
Especially if user can define what default is.
Agreed, the default button is one of the most commonly used on the front panel IME. The difference with the more expensive scopes is that they have probe readback and sensible default LA thresholds as part of the default setup.
Having said that, one non-default setting I frequently set after hitting default is the horizontal trigger position to the left 10% and expansion around the trigger point, but that's much less fiddly than having to reset four probe ratios.
I can get used to restoring from a stored config, but having a quick button user preset would be useful. I think the Siglents do offer that, but I haven't had one on the bench for a while.
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obviously DHO800/900S is not the right tool for you. you are asking too much. you need to step up to > $5K scope range.
(ps: why this kind of basic discussion has to happen sooo many times? ::))
I don't know ? Maybe if people would not repeat wrong statements all the time that need to be corrected.
Again:
For DHO800 i would accept it is OK. It is not that critcal
But DHO900 : 3 or 4 channels enabled and digital on : 156.25MSa/s / 1Mpts memory
On a scope that has 200 MHz BW on inputs feeding the ADC...
Again: With 4 channels enabled on 200 MHz DHO900 you cannot satisfy Nyquist at any timebase or memory setting. If you enable digital, you have sampling enough for a 50Mhz scope...
DHO900 with that sampling should be a 60-70 MHz realtime scope. Only 70 MHz version should be sold. Or they should have made progressive filters that will limit BW as sample rate drops. That would make it slightly dishonest (not really selling aa 200 MHz scope if it delivers it only in special occasions) but would insure that signal would be shown properly (with limitations of BW). And for low price that would be worth of compromise.
They didn't do that, and how the decided to do it will create problems all the time. And funny stuff, especially for their target market of hoby users and tinkerers. People that have experience could work around because they know how. But also with experience comes realization that it's not worth it... You just buy what actually works. DHO800 has good price and does not violate basic principles. BUt DHO900 is not a good, honest product.
It is funny to me how much coping is there.. It is wrong and should be fixed. And funny enough it can probably be fixed with filters in channels that are already there. It probably just needs fix in software..
In attachments 1MHZ squarewave. Input channel limited to 200MHz. Fixed sampling at 1GS/s, 400MS/s, 200MS/s, 100MS/s.
Representative of SLOW digital clock
In attachments 16MHz squarewave. Input channel limited to 200MHz. Fixed sampling at 1GS/s, 400MS/s, 200MS/s, 100MS/s.
Representative of digital clock on Arduino UNO (ATMega328)
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Many scopes have a "Default" button (reconfigurable), even if under other description, like the Tektronix 5 Series B MSO Mixed Signal 8 Channel Oscilloscope "Default Setup" button, or the R&S®MXO 4 "Preset" that can be configured to set either factory defaults or a user-defined preset configuration.
And this are not educational or hobby oscilloscopes.
Actually, as scopes get more complicated with time Default button is sometimes fastest way to start measurements from well defined starting point.
Especially if user can define what default is.
Agreed, the default button is one of the most commonly used on the front panel IME. The difference with the more expensive scopes is that they have probe readback and sensible default LA thresholds as part of the default setup.
Having said that, one non-default setting I frequently set after hitting default is the horizontal trigger position to the left 10% and expansion around the trigger point, but that's much less fiddly than having to reset four probe ratios.
I can get used to restoring from a stored config, but having a quick button user preset would be useful. I think the Siglents do offer that, but I haven't had one on the bench for a while.
Yes, that is my gripe with 3000T, that position can't be set in default.
And yes, Siglents have full config of default. In fact you can have dozens of favorite setups and recall them as needed.
And then you choose which one gets called when default is pressed.
If you need full reset, factory reset is in maintenance manu.
Best,
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A high time for Rigol to open the 800/900 series such it becomes the first Rigol's "HW platform" for an "open source" software development.
Rigol shall publish the necessary information such the broad community of the talented developers may start to fix and develop new stuff. It is pretty obvious Rigol does not have enough resources for the sw development in their low cost DSO segment.
Rigol may still let some proprietary details closed, sure, but playing with, for example, UI, Bode, wifi drivers, keyboards, decoders, LA, etc., etc. could be left open..
That would be the game changer, imho..
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But we could argue DHO800 should be OK.
OTOH DHO900 is not... You cannot have 200MHz scope with less than 500MSp/s and even that is on the limit..
Do you mean buying the DHO924S model is not a good idea?! DHO914S will be a better choice if I need an LA option?
With the current firmware, if you need an LA option, I can't recommend the either. Having said that, most of the problems are firmware, but there are so many issues I fear it'll take months rather than weeks to resolve.
The analogue bandwidth thing is a separate issue. When you need it, you need it. The choice is either to pay the $100 or hack it. If you pay $100 you also get the four higher bandwidth probes... not that you can enjoy more than two at the same time at that bandwidth of course!
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Zoom.
Is there a quick way to turn horizontal zoom on and off from the control panel, without having to fumble around on the touch screen?
On the DS1000Z, ISTR you pushed the horizontal timebase to toggle zoom. On the DHO800/900 that now toggles the vernier, a nice to have feature, but IME it's far less frequently used than toggling zoom.
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Zoom.
Is there a quick way to turn horizontal zoom on and off from the control panel, without having to fumble around on the touch screen?
On the DS1000Z, ISTR you pushed the horizontal timebase to toggle zoom. On the DHO800/900 that now toggles the vernier, a nice to have feature, but IME it's far less frequently used than toggling zoom.
I belive there is a setting where you can choose what timebase knob press will do: fine/zoom.....
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Nothing beats real-time data streaming, no segmented memory not any triggering is going to replace grep. Or Python. Or C#. Or <insert your favourite data analysis language>.
I respectfully disagree. As I've said before, it's horses for courses, use the tool for the job that gets you there the quickest considering one's individual experience and skill set.
***
Furthermore, IME near-unlimited streaming of bulk data into a PC from LAs is typically restrictive in terms of sample rate, unless you have a particularly expensive LA. While a reasonably-priced LA might be OK for oodles of I2C traffic, high speed SPI not so much.
Yes but in the context of this thread, we are talking about the DHO900. We have other threads you can argue about PC LA vs MSO that are more relevant.
You are paying $200 (PLUS adapter $50-300) for a LA that:
- takes away from your analog sample rate
- will have limited protocol support compared to sigrok
IMO that ~$300 is better spent toward a known good PC LA or dedicated AWG or something else. Maybe in the future that might change, if rigol puts a lot of effort into the LA (which they have not done in the past).
99% of hobbyist use cases can get away with using a few analog channels for I2C or SPI.
You raise valid points, particularly for hobbyists.
IME a significant limitation of many PC based LAs is the sample rate, particularly for high speed SPI.
For the avoidance of doubt, for PC based LAs I use both the Analog Discovery and the Digital Discovery extensively: while the AD in particular is often deemed a "hobbyist" tool, in practice I wouldn't be without it. Both are worthy of bench positions, or, more accurately, worthy of hand baggage inclusion for field work - in fact I have three ADs for exactly this reason!
And that is my use case for the DHO900, as a field scope. At the moment it's either an AD or an MSO1000Z.
The LA on the DHO900 as it currently stands is almost useless. It's difficult to know where to even start, but not even the threshold values can be relied on.
if rigol puts a lot of effort into the LA (which they have not done in the past).
If they don't put effort into the LA, sadly I can see a lot of units being returned.
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You mean limitations on the digital decoding due to sampling rate limits on those channels? I understand that the digital part can always sample at 625MSa/s in the DHO900, while the analog channels drop down to 156 MSa/s when all channels are used. Having said that, I do remember discussions about other (Rigol?) scopes which required a surprisingly high sampling rate, relative to the signal clock, to do a decent decoding job.
I checked this last night. The maximum sample rate I was able to achieve from the LA was 312.5MSa/s, even when the scope's saying the sample rate is 625MSa/s. I derived this from observed horizontal granularity of 3.2ns.
On the other side of the coin, when the scope was claiming a sample rate of 156.25MSa/s when all channels were turned on, the observed LA horizontal granularity was still 3.2ns.
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Rigol shall publish the necessary information such the broad community of the talented developers may start to fix and develop new stuff.
maybe in your dream. i just emailed them to ask for the newer wfm file format documentation last week, no reply. and iirc last time too on ds1000z/e. they seems to have no interest at all to support independent developers. what you look like they let the FW "open" or hackable... is probably just because their lazy arse or lack of resources to do anything beyond what is just necessary to turn that HW on and working at minimum..
I checked this last night. The maximum sample rate I was able to achieve from the LA was 312.5MSa/s, even when the scope's saying the sample rate is 625MSa/s. I derived this from observed horizontal granularity of 3.2ns.
so thats still good for 100MHz analog, and probably 20Mbps digital. lack of specification description is common trait of cheapo manufacturers, but Rigol is still the best among them at providing decent capability scope i would say on par with other expensive brand's low end product.
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But we could argue DHO800 should be OK.
OTOH DHO900 is not... You cannot have 200MHz scope with less than 500MSp/s and even that is on the limit..
Do you mean buying the DHO924S model is not a good idea?! DHO914S will be a better choice if I need an LA option?
If you need LA then MSO5000 is probably a better option. It has far more memory, bandwidth, screen area, etc., then the 924 and costs about the same.
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On the DS1000Z, ISTR you pushed the horizontal timebase to toggle zoom.
Look in "Setup", there's an option to enable that.
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I checked this last night. The maximum sample rate I was able to achieve from the LA was 312.5MSa/s, even when the scope's saying the sample rate is 625MSa/s. I derived this from observed horizontal granularity of 3.2ns.
so thats still good for 100MHz analog, and probably 20Mbps digital. lack of specification description is common trait of cheapo manufacturers, but Rigol is still the best among them at providing decent capability scope i would say on par with other expensive brand's low end product.
The devil is always in the detail! It's the same, if not worse, with things like microcontroller low power specs.
Depending on what you're probing, I'd say 312MSa/s is useful for a lot faster than 20Mbps, over 100Mbps SPI at a push. if only the SPI decoder worked with the LA ;-)
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But we could argue DHO800 should be OK.
OTOH DHO900 is not... You cannot have 200MHz scope with less than 500MSp/s and even that is on the limit..
Do you mean buying the DHO924S model is not a good idea?! DHO914S will be a better choice if I need an LA option?
If you need LA then MSO5000 is probably a better option. It has far more memory, bandwidth, screen area, etc., then the 924 and costs about the same.
I note that there's still an LA trigger offset display problem on the DHO900, although it's about 350ps rather than the 1ns of the MSO5000.
I quite like the MSO5000, especially having almost all the controls as physical knobs and buttons. Unfortunately mine has just blown its third ISL8203M voltage regulator!
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DHO800 has it at higher (almost 180 MHz) and is also 12 Bit meaning it will alias on signal levels you would not have to worry with 8 bt scope...
So... just like many other oscilloscopes.
eg. Siglent SDS1204X-E has it at 230MHz and a 1GHz sample rate with all channels on.
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Depending on what you're probing, I'd say 312MSa/s is useful for a lot faster than 20Mbps, over 100Mbps SPI at a push. if only the SPI decoder worked with the LA ;-)
You can do SPI on the analog channels until they fix it (and also see the signal integrity).
I always thought the digital inputs were for wider buses than SPI.
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obviously DHO800/900S is not the right tool for you. you are asking too much. you need to step up to > $5K scope range.
(ps: why this kind of basic discussion has to happen sooo many times? ::))
I don't know ? Maybe if people would not repeat wrong statements all the time that need to be corrected.
Again:
For DHO800 i would accept it is OK. It is not that critcal
But DHO900 : 3 or 4 channels enabled and digital on : 156.25MSa/s / 1Mpts memory
On a scope that has 200 MHz BW on inputs feeding the ADC...
Again: With 4 channels enabled on 200 MHz DHO900 you cannot satisfy Nyquist at any timebase or memory setting. If you enable digital, you have sampling enough for a 50Mhz scope...
AFAIK this is not the only scope out there that has such a 'limitation'. It just takes more care from the user. It would be good if the bandwidth is limited automatically or that you can at least set the bandwidth limit.
On my GW Instek 2000E series there is a hack which allows to enable an unofficial 300MHz bandwidth option. However, the samplerate with 3 or 4 channels enabled is not high enough. So in that case the 200MHz bandwidth limit (which comes with the 300MHz option) needs to be set. Sometimes it is nice to have the extra bandwidth for 1 or 2 channels though.
The way Rigol has 'implemented it' ('left it hanging' is a better description) on the DHO900 series is very rough around the edges and you can argue it is not ideal for a beginner to use.
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But DHO900 : 3 or 4 channels enabled and digital on : 156.25MSa/s / 1Mpts memory
What is it when you don't turn on that many analog channels? :popcorn:
AFAIK this is not the only scope out there that has such a 'limitation'. It just takes more care from the user.
Yep. You don't have to turn on everything all the time.
It's like a Swiss Army knife: You don't open all the blades every time you use it, you only open the one you need.
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Rigol shall publish the necessary information such the broad community of the talented developers may start to fix and develop new stuff.
maybe in your dream. i just emailed them to ask for the newer wfm file format documentation last week, no reply. and iirc last time too on ds1000z/e. they seems to have no interest at all to support independent developers. what you look like they let the FW "open" or hackable... is probably just because their lazy arse or lack of resources to do anything beyond what is just necessary to turn that HW on and working at minimum..
..
Perhaps the Rigol's CEO reads this thread and takes the action.. :-DD
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Perhaps the Rigol's CEO reads this thread and takes the action.. :-DD
I don't think he's going to sit through this but I started a "requests" thread last week.
I know there's not much chance, but... just in case. :popcorn:
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Perhaps the Rigol's CEO reads this thread and takes the action.. :-DD
I don't think he's going to sit through this but I started a "requests" thread last week.
I know there's not much chance, but... just in case. :popcorn:
My quick linkedin search shows two managers who would certainly be happy to have a look at this thread (as well as the other threads related to their DHO800/900 series):
Mr. Rico Wang
President at RIGOL Technologies
Mr. Victor Cheng
Chief Strategy Officer at RIGOL Technologies
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I don't know why they aren't already watching.
How hard can it be to get an employee to read a forum for an hour a day and report on bugs as they're found?
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But DHO900 : 3 or 4 channels enabled and digital on : 156.25MSa/s / 1Mpts memory
What is it when you don't turn on that many analog channels? :popcorn:
AFAIK this is not the only scope out there that has such a 'limitation'. It just takes more care from the user.
Yep. You don't have to turn on everything all the time.
It's like a Swiss Army knife: You don't open all the blades every time you use it, you only open the one you need.
You either have trouble with comprehension or you are deliberately trolling here..
There is no scope (including ones from Rigol) that say it is 200 MHz scope and will drop sampling below Nyquist, not mention well below BW frequency....
Solution is to call it 70 MHz scope and say it has 100/200 MHz limited mode... And limit BW when it breaks basic sampling theorem..
And Nico's GW Instek was never released that way, it was after unofficial hack. GW Instek was honest there.
What is wrong with you? DHO900 is a bad design. Why don't you want Rigol to fix it? Why do you want that your fellow Rigol users to buy badly designed scope... You're not helping Rigol..
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Depending on what you're probing, I'd say 312MSa/s is useful for a lot faster than 20Mbps, over 100Mbps SPI at a push. if only the SPI decoder worked with the LA ;-)
You can do SPI on the analog channels until they fix it (and also see the signal integrity).
I always thought the digital inputs were for wider buses than SPI.
I'm a mixed signal dude.
I can easily burn up 16 digital channels during a debug session: as well as multiple serial streams, I use multiple GPIOs to debug performance pinch points and monitor software state such as ISR entry and exit. As well as GPIOs, burning up one or two SPI and a couple of UART channels purposed as debugging instrumentation channels to quickly bang out 8, 16 or 32 bit status isn't uncommon because they're both cheap and unobtrusive in performance terms to implement.
The examples below are parts of the guts of a single chip microcontroller based USB PD BMC implementation I'd been working on that I have to hand. As well s software states, multiple interim hardware states are brought out to GPIOs. The BMC signal also requires signal conditioning, so I need the analogue channels too. Unfortunately, much as I like the AD, its Waveforms software doesn't automatically align the LA and analogue channels without some operator jiggery pokery.
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There is no scope (including ones from Rigol) that say it is 200 MHz scope and will drop sampling below Nyquist, not mention well below BW frequency....
I never said there was.
Your memory is like a fish: I've said many, many, many, many, many times in this thread that the DHO924 ought to turn on the 125Mhz limiter (which it already has internally) when there's more than 2 channels enabled.
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There is no scope (including ones from Rigol) that say it is 200 MHz scope and will drop sampling below Nyquist, not mention well below BW frequency....
I never said there was.
Your memory is like a fish: I've said many, many, many, many, many times in this thread that the DHO924 ought to turn on the 125Mhz limiter (which it already has internally) when there's more than 2 channels enabled.
Really ?? You did, right.. But not here... That is my point..
Here, you repeated that same argument again and again, ignoring your own statements..
If lie didn't fly first time, keep repeating it. People might start to believe it..
It is not you manipulating information all the time.. And being insulting, when you have no real information and you want to prove me wrong even when I'm telling the truth...
No, I have bad memory... Which is insulting as heck, because it implies I have a medical condition and you are making fun of it...
Good for you...
Jeez...
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For the avoidance of doubt, for PC based LAs I use both the Analog Discovery and the Digital Discovery extensively: while the AD in particular is often deemed a "hobbyist" tool, in practice I wouldn't be without it. Both are worthy of bench positions, or, more accurately, worthy of hand baggage inclusion for field work - in fact I have three ADs for exactly this reason!
That explains a lot. Take a look at DSLogic U3Pro https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/product/dslogic-series/ (https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/product/dslogic-series/) This is a good example of what modern PC-based LA can do. And that is only using USB3 5Gbps, so with 10 Gbps you can double all numbers.
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For the avoidance of doubt, for PC based LAs I use both the Analog Discovery and the Digital Discovery extensively: while the AD in particular is often deemed a "hobbyist" tool, in practice I wouldn't be without it. Both are worthy of bench positions, or, more accurately, worthy of hand baggage inclusion for field work - in fact I have three ADs for exactly this reason!
That explains a lot. Take a look at DSLogic U3Pro https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/product/dslogic-series/ (https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/product/dslogic-series/) This is a good example of what modern PC-based LA can do. And that is only using USB3 5Gbps, so with 10 Gbps you can double all numbers.
Do you have it? I was looking at it some time ago.... That one actually have some triggering that seem usable...
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Do you have it? I was looking at it some time ago.... That one actually have some triggering that seem usable...
Not (yet) as I'm in a bit of a temporary financial limbo atm so I don't spend money unless I absolutely have to, but I have heard very good things about it, including from people I personally trust. So hopefully in a few weeks once my contract situation gets resolved, I will buy one.
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Do you have it? I was looking at it some time ago.... That one actually have some triggering that seem usable...
Not (yet) as I'm in a bit of a temporary financial limbo atm so I don't spend money unless I absolutely have to, but I have heard very good things about it, including from people I personally trust. So hopefully in a few weeks once my contract situation gets resolved, I will buy one.
Excellent, looking forward to some impressions...
And good luck sorting things out!!
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Excellent, looking forward to some impressions...
And good luck sorting things out!!
Thanks! BTW you can download their DSView software and play around with it a bit in a "demo" mode even without buying anything to get a better idea of what it's like.
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Rigol shall [...]
Rigol may [...]
The 10 Commandments, according to iMo. ;)
I sm sure Rigol will appreciate your instructions...
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I will buy one.
Which model?
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Which model?
I'm aiming at DSLogic U3Pro16, I see no reason to pay extra $100 for 16 additional channels as I doubt I will ever use that many. My MSO has got 16 channels, and I don't remember ever using more than 9 (for 8 bit bus + clock signal). And U3Pro16 has a dedicated clock input, so I won't even have to waste an input for it in abovementioned case.
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...
Your memory is like a fish: I've said many, many, many, many, many times in this thread that the DHO924 ought to turn on the 125Mhz limiter (which it already has internally) when there's more than 2 channels enabled.
Even this measure won't help. The DHO914S that now I've got an RMA# for, that I tested (successfully ;)) for aliasing (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5106558/#msg5106558), should have the 125MHz LP filter enabled all the time, but to what avail with a 3dB bandwidth of 180~210MHz? I'm pretty sure the little, symmetric LC filters directly in front of the ADC inputs (apparently 24dB/oct jobbies) are configured with their stop-band close to the ADC's fundamental nyquist frequency, so probably somewhere in the 500...600MHz ballpark. The programmable low pass filters in Rigol's front-end chips may not be any steeper than 6dB/oct and thus provide just a gentle roll-off which makes them useful for model type limiting but definitely not for providing a "brick wall" against aliasing. So, once again, it's the user's job to understand and take preventive measures against aliasing. Or live with the wobbly slopes and pre- and overshoot of signals that contain frequencies above Nyquist...
That's nothing new, we had to live with that with the DS1000Z, all channels active, and I'm pretty certain (though I cannot proove it) that it's not much different with Siglent's entry level models. What disappoints me is that Rigol took that probem still to another level with the DHO900 model in combination with the digital inputs. On the MSO1000Z (Ds1000Z Plus?) they were at least so "honest" to "steal" two analog channels if the digital inputs were in use, so they could at least maintain minimum sample rate. But of course, this doesn't look too good in the advertisments and comparison charts...
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Great minds think alike. DHO942s is canceled, part of the funds is going to the U3Pro16 with additional shielded wires.
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There is no scope (including ones from Rigol) that say it is 200 MHz scope and will drop sampling below Nyquist, not mention well below BW frequency....
Solution is to call it 70 MHz scope and say it has 100/200 MHz limited mode... And limit BW when it breaks basic sampling theorem..
And Nico's GW Instek was never released that way, it was after unofficial hack. GW Instek was honest there.
What is wrong with you? DHO900 is a bad design. Why don't you want Rigol to fix it? Why do you want that your fellow Rigol users to buy badly designed scope... You're not helping Rigol..
"bad" design is based on your definition. a good scope must not alias? i think you didnt catch my reply to Howardlong. you cant avoid aliasing. you can feed your pure 70MHz to it and set the time scale large enough so the sample rate will reduced badly, and you get aliasing from your 70MHz. trying to add auto attenuation, will probably complicate the front end or FPGA logic cells hence increase cost... and it would not avoid confusion anyway... for the rest of us, we would like Rigol to fully open the front end BW to 1.25GSa/s divide 2.5X = 500MHz (or maybe 250MHz for 2 channels probing at 625MSa/s) like the old high end Tek/HP DSO... and later limit it ourself internally or external circuit if we need to. real circuit is not just viewing pure sine wave, there are other things like verifying risetime, gate capacitance and signal integrity on digital signal, that will not cause aliasing. if Rigol fullfill your theoritical utopia desire, then we will call it bad/crippled design, they wont be able to satisfy everybody. because this is subjective, as people call it horses for courses.
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"bad" design is based on your definition. a good scope must not alias? i think you didnt catch my reply to Warhawk. you cant avoid aliasing. you can feed your pure 70MHz to it and set the time scale large enough so the sample rate will reduced badly, and you get aliasing from your 70MHz.
Yep.
All these 'scopes can reduce their sampling rate on demand (usually done automatically when you change the horizontal timebase) so they can all show aliasing.
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Which model?
I'm aiming at DSLogic U3Pro16, I see no reason to pay extra $100 for 16 additional channels as I doubt I will ever use that many. My MSO has got 16 channels, and I don't remember ever using more than 9 (for 8 bit bus + clock signal). And U3Pro16 has a dedicated clock input, so I won't even have to waste an input for it in abovementioned case.
If you ever need more than 16, you can buy an old HP/Agilent LA... they are bulky but can do 128 or more channels
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DHO800 has it at higher (almost 180 MHz) and is also 12 Bit meaning it will alias on signal levels you would not have to worry with 8 bt scope...
So... just like many other oscilloscopes.
eg. Siglent SDS1204X-E has it at 230MHz and a 1GHz sample rate with all channels on.
says who? from reading, SDS1204X-E has 2x ADC, turn on all channel, you get 500MSa/s. its 8-bit and double the price of DHO800. go on get it if that is what you want. try increase time scale if it can avoid aliasing, i bet not. i remember there is called hi-res capture, or ETS? to avoid such aliasing, i need to power up DHO804 again if i can find workaround. fwiw...
Great minds think alike. DHO942s is canceled, part of the funds is going to the U3Pro16 with additional shielded wires.
congratulation! thats another nearly a DHO804 cost ;) https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/shop/ (https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/shop/) so do you now realize why we bought 804 instead of 814 or even 924s? we know Rigol's tradition for many years. ymmv.
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There is no scope (including ones from Rigol) that say it is 200 MHz scope and will drop sampling below Nyquist, not mention well below BW frequency....
Solution is to call it 70 MHz scope and say it has 100/200 MHz limited mode... And limit BW when it breaks basic sampling theorem..
And Nico's GW Instek was never released that way, it was after unofficial hack. GW Instek was honest there.
What is wrong with you? DHO900 is a bad design. Why don't you want Rigol to fix it? Why do you want that your fellow Rigol users to buy badly designed scope... You're not helping Rigol..
"bad" design is based on your definition. a good scope must not alias? i think you didnt catch my reply to Howardlong. you cant avoid aliasing. you can feed your pure 70MHz to it and set the time scale large enough so the sample rate will reduced badly, and you get aliasing from your 70MHz. trying to add auto attenuation, will probably complicate the front end or FPGA logic cells hence increase cost... and it would not avoid confusion anyway... for the rest of us, we would like Rigol to fully open the front end BW to 1.25GSa/s divide 2.5X = 500MHz (or maybe 250MHz for 2 channels probing at 625MSa/s) like the old high end Tek/HP DSO... and later limit it ourself internally or external circuit if we need to. real circuit is not just viewing pure sine wave, there are other things like verifying risetime, gate capacitance and signal integrity on digital signal, that will not cause aliasing. if Rigol fullfill your theoritical utopia desire, then we will call it bad/crippled design, they wont be able to satisfy everybody. because this is subjective, as people call it horses for courses.
It is BAD design. It is only scope that cannot satisfy (and by factor 3x less than needed) Nyquist including Hanteks, UNI-T, Owon and all other scopes that are even cheaper.
I will repeat:
If you enable all channels (which is why you bought 4 ch scope) it cannot satisfy Nyquist at ANY timebase..
If you enable MSO too, then sampling rate drops below 1/3rd of needed sample rate.. At any timebase.
I even provided images what happens with signal when you feed 1 and 16MHz squarewave with quite slow edges (2ns edges) that is slower than Atmel MCU in Arduino by factor of 2-3...
In that case scope is USELESS. Because it will show garbage on the screen. It will be much worse than DS1000Z or DHO800 or and number of scopes that are very cheap and considered toys by many..
It is not about aliasing is not possible to happen with other scopes.
Problem is that on DHO900 you cannot make it do anything else but alias all the time, if you use 4ch or MSO or God forbid be completely useless if you use both.. There is no setting that will NOT alias if you enable more than 2 ch and/or MSO.
So if you cannot use 4 ch or MSO, just buy DHO800 if you want to buy cheap 12 bit Rigol. That one works much better and is cheaper..
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.. real circuit is not just viewing pure sine wave, there are other things like verifying risetime, gate capacitance and signal integrity on digital signal, that will not cause aliasing.
You appear to be saying that aliasing is only a potential issue when viewing sine waves and that other input waveforms will not cause aliasing. If that is indeed what you think, you are mistaken.
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It is BAD design. It is only scope that cannot satisfy (and by factor 3x less than needed) Nyquist including Hanteks, UNI-T, Owon and all other scopes that are even cheaper.
Yeah, yeah.
What If I'm into HAM radio and Arduinos?
I get a 200Mhz, 2-channel scope for my radio work and a 4 channel 'scope for Arduino work.
It's not BAD design. You really think they don't know about it and made a mistake? It's a deliberate design/marketing choice.
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For the avoidance of doubt, for PC based LAs I use both the Analog Discovery and the Digital Discovery extensively: while the AD in particular is often deemed a "hobbyist" tool, in practice I wouldn't be without it. Both are worthy of bench positions, or, more accurately, worthy of hand baggage inclusion for field work - in fact I have three ADs for exactly this reason!
That explains a lot. Take a look at DSLogic U3Pro https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/product/dslogic-series/ (https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/product/dslogic-series/) This is a good example of what modern PC-based LA can do. And that is only using USB3 5Gbps, so with 10 Gbps you can double all numbers.
Yes, I'm aware of this unit. The specs on the Digital Discovery and the this are quite similar, same memory and 20% higher sampling speed like-for-like. I've been tempted before because of the probing it offers and USB 3 SuperSpeed would make longer captures faster, although I don't see any evidence that it offers SuperSpeed+.
How does the software compare to Waveforms? Waveforms is very much a key reason to use the Discoveries. I haven't seen any in depth reviews of these DSLogic U3Pro units, it seems to be a Chinese sourced device?
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It is BAD design. It is only scope that cannot satisfy (and by factor 3x less than needed) Nyquist including Hanteks, UNI-T, Owon and all other scopes that are even cheaper.
Yeah, yeah.
What If I'm into HAM radio and Arduinos?
I get a 200Mhz, 2-channel scope for my radio work and a 4 channel 'scope for Arduino work.
It's not BAD design. You really think they don't know about it and made a mistake? It's a deliberate design/marketing choice.
It is BAD design. It is design that is broken as a scope (if you violate Nyquist, digital scope DOES not work properly, mathematical fact) if you use all channels and MSO. They could DISABLE use of 2CH when MSO is used and limit BW..
They know damn well what are they doing. It is not a mistake. It is decision for specifically type of users like you who think half made product is OK if price is right. They made what they market as cheapest 200MHz 12 bit 4ch MSO scope on the market. And when people point out it is not all of that at the same time answer is "well, what can you expect for the price you paid....."..
Literally go buy MSO5000. It is bit noisy but honest product. If you need 12bit analog you can get DHO800. It is very simple scope, but it is 12 bit and is also honest product and for even better price.
Make note here: despite of my preferences I'm not saying buy Siglent. Buy other Rigol, just not DHO900...
I have criticized Rigol for the state of development of their software. But on DHO800/1000/4000 they can potentially fix all software problems. I'm sceptical how much and how fast but that option is on the table, because DHO800/1000/4000 don't seem to have design problems with hardware (that we know of). DHO900 problems cannot be fixed by software. It is bad/wrong hardware design.
So I have no problems if people buy DHO800/1000/4000 because in theory they can be fixed with time if people are willing to wait.
But whoever buys DHO900 buys scope that has hardware specification problems. It will never be fixed.
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What If I'm into HAM radio and Arduinos?
I get a 200Mhz, 2-channel scope for my radio work and a 4 channel 'scope for Arduino work.
It's not BAD design. You really think they don't know about it and made a mistake? It's a deliberate design/marketing choice.
the problem is, he is not HAM, so i think its wise to make this thread non-repetitive, otherwise aliasing will occur. here attached of Leo Bodnar pulse, i wish to see shorter rise time, no aliasing guaranteed!
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What makes you think you can trust the rise time measurement in the presence of aliasing?
EDIT: Ok, I guess we are back with the 804 (and single channel). I was assuming this was still about
real circuit is not just viewing pure sine wave, there are other things like verifying risetime, gate capacitance and signal integrity on digital signal, that will not cause aliasing.
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the problem is, he is not HAM
Not necessarily "HAM" but anything where you want to connect some coax and have maximum possible bandwidth.
It is BAD design. It is only scope that cannot satisfy (and by factor 3x less than needed) Nyquist including Hanteks, UNI-T, Owon and all other scopes that are even cheaper.
As noted earlier: I can make your favorite oscilloscope alias with a 1kHz sine wave. All I have to do is fiddle with the settings.
(nb. I've actually done this...)
If I suspect a signal is aliasing on my DHO900? I can turn a channel or two off and look at the signal with 500Mhz or 1Ghz sample rate. It only takes a second. If the frequency jumps around then, yep, it was aliasing.
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What makes you think you can trust the rise time measurement in the presence of aliasing?
Simple: He only has one channel enabled!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1905504;image)
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What If I'm into HAM radio and Arduinos?
I get a 200Mhz, 2-channel scope for my radio work and a 4 channel 'scope for Arduino work.
It's not BAD design. You really think they don't know about it and made a mistake? It's a deliberate design/marketing choice.
the problem is, he is not HAM, so i think its wise to make this thread non-repetitive, otherwise aliasing will occur. here attached of Leo Bodnar pulse, i wish to see shorter rise time, no aliasing guaranteed!
I'm talking (and I said many many times) about DHO900.
I said DHO800 will work fine...
But you have to push your agenda..
Good for you.
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the problem is, he is not HAM
Not necessarily "HAM" but anything where you want to connect some coax and have maximum possible bandwidth.
It is BAD design. It is only scope that cannot satisfy (and by factor 3x less than needed) Nyquist including Hanteks, UNI-T, Owon and all other scopes that are even cheaper.
As noted earlier: I can make your favorite oscilloscope alias with a 1kHz sine wave. All I have to do is fiddle with the settings.
(nb. I've actually done this...)
If I suspect a signal is aliasing on my DHO900? I can turn a channel or two off and look at the signal with 500Mhz or 1Ghz sample rate. It only takes a second. If the frequency jumps around then, yep, it was aliasing.
You can also smash it with a hammer...It will also make oscilloscope malfunction..
Any digital scope can be made to alias.
But Rigol made only scope that is guaranteed that it will alias if you try to use it for what it is.
But hey, Mecahtrommer and you are fighting so hard for poor Rigols right to sell bad design to others...
More power to you..
Whoever thinks they know better should buy whatever they want.
I said my peace..
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Sorry, but you are making way too much fuss about this. My good old Tek 2230 sampled at 20Ms/s while it had a 100MHz bandwidth. And if you look a bit harder you can probably find more modern examples as well. Nothing is hidden by Rigol but the scope will not work at multiple extremes of the specifications; the user will have to choose. Nothing new here and personally I like equipment that lets me choose which extreme of the specs I need. I have a 60V 50A power supply on my desk. But it won't do both at the same time as the power is limited to 1000W. It still is a good power supply because sometimes I need the high voltage, sometimes I need the high current.
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I'm talking (and I said many many times) about DHO900.
I said DHO800 will work fine...
point understood, thats why i tend to stop arguing... you probably right, but imho DHO900S is just a bit step up of DHO800 (50Mpts and 200MHz uncrippled) with some toy LA added. but when you activate LA and all channels and expect it to show no aliasing, i already said much earlier, the right tool is probably in $2-5K range. and at that setup, i'm not sure what you are expecting to see on analog channels while probing digital bus. you must be doing complex project, then again, its advisable to get $2-5K MSO. you cant expect too much from shared ADC front end... but the good thing imho is built in monitor and some functionalities of LA, no need PC. ymmv.
What makes you think you can trust the rise time measurement in the presence of aliasing?
Simple: He only has one channel enabled!
its not about how many channels enabled, its about being aware at what sample rate you are probing, at every dso setup you've made. and know whether aliasing is possible when probing your dut. how do i know no aliasing in this case? i only rely on report for the Pulser module that has been tested with sampling (ETS) head/scope by Leo Bodnar.. other than that, there is not much i can tell, when we exceed nyquist limit, we can only guess... its that simple.
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DHO800 has it at higher (almost 180 MHz) and is also 12 Bit meaning it will alias on signal levels you would not have to worry with 8 bt scope...
So... just like many other oscilloscopes.
eg. Siglent SDS1204X-E has it at 230MHz and a 1GHz sample rate with all channels on.
...i remember there is called hi-res capture, or ETS? to avoid such aliasing, i need to power up DHO804 again if i can find workaround...
got it, its called "Peak" acquisition mode... DHO800 has it like the previous DS1000Z/E it removes aliasing. https://www.tek.com/en/support/faqs/what-acquisition-modes-are-available-most-tektronix-oscilloscopes (https://www.tek.com/en/support/faqs/what-acquisition-modes-are-available-most-tektronix-oscilloscopes)
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Be aware that peak detect is only effective if the ADC (and peak detector) is running fast enough. The same is true for high-res and random sampling. On the 924 this would not be the case anymore with 4 channels enabled. A switchable (analog) low-pass filter would certainly help, as would ETS (for periodic signals). I do not know if either is available on the Rigol.
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Be aware that peak detect is only effective if the ADC (and peak detector) is running fast enough. The same is true for high-res and random sampling. On the 924 this would not be the case anymore with 4 channels enabled. A switchable (analog) low-pass filter would certainly help, as would ETS (for periodic signals). I do not know if either is available on the Rigol.
They are not using filter (there is at least one for switching between models).
ETS is not available on these scope as no dot mode either...
On Siglent dot mode functions as a RIS and you can actually get great results for stable repetitive signals.
Complex 18kHz signal sampled at 200KS/s.
In vector mode (this is only mode Rigol has)
In Dot mode it reconstructs signal accurately.
Even SDS1000X-E can do this.
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Be aware that peak detect is only effective if the ADC (and peak detector) is running fast enough.
On Keysight peak detection mode will actually decrease sampling rate at certain timebases.
Peak detector mode is anyways a crutch, you cannot use FFT and measurements with it.
It destroys signal details, it is useful only to show signal envelope on screen.
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Be aware that peak detect is only effective if the ADC (and peak detector) is running fast enough. The same is true for high-res and random sampling. On the 924 this would not be the case anymore with 4 channels enabled. A switchable (analog) low-pass filter would certainly help, as would ETS (for periodic signals). I do not know if either is available on the Rigol.
fair enough. with 4 channels on, the ADC already running fast enough but get divided to 312.5MSa/s for each channel, so there is no more room for ADC to contruct min-max data.. attached is 167MHz signal on 1 channel 1.25GSa/s (signal.jpg), with 4 channels turned on (no_limit.jpg), aliasing occured (312.5MSa/s) Peak and Normal acquisition not much difference at this ADC's fastest rate (shared). turning on 20MHz BW limit we can still see aliasing (20mhz_limit.jpg). so your theoritical utopia for no aliasing rule is a "Brickwall Filter" at sample rate / 2.5, how easy is that to make in HW? no ETS in DHO800 and DS1000Z..
btw, i tried touch pen that came with my EraSynth and NanoVNA, both cannot work on DHO800's screen too bad.. (pen.jpg) fwiw...
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btw, i tried touch pen that came with my EraSynth and NanoVNA, both cannot work on DHO800's screen too bad.. (pen.jpg) fwiw...
There's pens for resistive screens and pens for capacitive screens. You have to get the right type. :)
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Using a mouse is more effective but wait, for this need you only have 1 USB A port and it seems from reports a USB hub will freeze the scope.
We live in interesting times.
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btw, i tried touch pen that came with my EraSynth and NanoVNA, both cannot work on DHO800's screen too bad.. (pen.jpg) fwiw...
There's pens for resistive screens and pens for capacitive screens. You have to get the right type. :)
The stylus I use with an iPad works on the Rigol touchscreen.
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Using a mouse is more effective but wait, for this need you only have 1 USB A port and it seems from reports a USB hub will freeze the scope.
I've been using a mouse and USB stick on a cheap hub all week with no problems.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=1899483;image)
I just got a nicer hub and that works, too.
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Be aware that peak detect is only effective if the ADC (and peak detector) is running fast enough.
On Keysight peak detection mode will actually decrease sampling rate at certain timebases.
Peak detector mode is anyways a crutch, you cannot use FFT and measurements with it.
It destroys signal details, it is useful only to show signal envelope on screen.
I think people are confusing the several "sample rates" within a scope. The ADC sampling rate and acquisition sampling rate (which is the data stored to memory) are not always equal. And what happens between those steps is not consistent between difference scopes/brands.
The megazoom "issue" that you've pointed to (out of context) is those scopes reducing the acquisition sample rate when in non-8bit modes, (peak detect, averaging, high resolution) as the acquisition rate changes to fill the available aquitision memory (keeping the horizontal timebase the same). The ADCs keep running at their full rate for all acquisition modes, just as the Rigol do, tuning on more channels increases the multiplex to the ADCs and drops the per channel ADC sample rate (XXGS/s to 0.5*XXGS/s).
switchabl is correct that the ADC sample rate is determining the peak detect capture window (unless some scopes have analog domain peak detect?).
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Well, it can show RF signal on VHS VCR - its nice! But now I've stumbled on - why 2nd head isn't showing and not reacting to adjust of tape path - maybe its dead? :) Can I hook it up to video head directly - or output level will be to low for dho804?
(https://i.ibb.co/2PRw73J/IMG-3586.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2PRw73J) (https://i.ibb.co/MSDY77M/IMG-3566.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MSDY77M) (https://i.ibb.co/MCNpzwD/IMG-3567.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MCNpzwD)
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...
I think people are confusing the several "sample rates" within a scope. The ADC sampling rate and acquisition sampling rate (which is the data stored to memory) are not always equal. And what happens between those steps is not consistent between difference scopes/brands.
The megazoom "issue" that you've pointed to (out of context) is those scopes reducing the acquisition sample rate when in non-8bit modes, (peak detect, averaging, high resolution) as the acquisition rate changes to fill the available aquitision memory (keeping the horizontal timebase the same). The ADCs keep running at their full rate for all acquisition modes, just as the Rigol do, tuning on more channels increases the multiplex to the ADCs and drops the per channel ADC sample rate (XXGS/s to 0.5*XXGS/s).
switchabl is correct that the ADC sample rate is determining the peak detect capture window (unless some scopes have analog domain peak detect?).
With "normal" sampling configuration, the DHO900 is actually boxcar averaging when the "Shadow Memory Sampling Rate" is lower than the ADC rate which apparently stays the same all the time (only activating additional channels multiplexes this sample rate over the enabled channels). See here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5109618/#msg5109618 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5109618/#msg5109618)
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...
I think people are confusing the several "sample rates" within a scope. The ADC sampling rate and acquisition sampling rate (which is the data stored to memory) are not always equal. And what happens between those steps is not consistent between difference scopes/brands.
The megazoom "issue" that you've pointed to (out of context) is those scopes reducing the acquisition sample rate when in non-8bit modes, (peak detect, averaging, high resolution) as the acquisition rate changes to fill the available aquitision memory (keeping the horizontal timebase the same). The ADCs keep running at their full rate for all acquisition modes, just as the Rigol do, tuning on more channels increases the multiplex to the ADCs and drops the per channel ADC sample rate (XXGS/s to 0.5*XXGS/s).
switchabl is correct that the ADC sample rate is determining the peak detect capture window (unless some scopes have analog domain peak detect?).
With "normal" sampling configuration, the DHO900 is actually boxcar averaging when the "Shadow Memory Sampling Rate" is lower than the ADC rate which apparently stays the same all the time (only activating additional channels multiplexes this sample rate over the enabled channels). See here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5109618/#msg5109618 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5109618/#msg5109618)
how do you know its boxcar averaging?
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Well, it can show RF signal on VHS VCR - its nice! But now I've stumbled on - why 2nd head isn't showing and not reacting to adjust of tape path - maybe its dead? :) Can I hook it up to video head directly - or output level will be to low for dho804?
Try looking at the direct output from the rotary transformer for the head of the working channel. Can you see its signal?
But each head is for one field (20ms 625/50). Your 'scope trace does not show significant difference between alternate fields but the gaps between them are longer than I would expect.
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I've tried to adjust switching point on servo board - to try switching time, that's why gap can look not right for filed time. Yes, I will try on input of head amp.
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Can I hook it up to video head directly - or output level will be to low for dho804?
It's 12 bits and goes down to microvolts... try it and see!
...the gaps between them are longer than I would expect.
I don't think it's all gap, I think it's just very low signal level at the top of the screen that looks like a gap.
(https://i.ibb.co/LRzL11n/IMG-3566.jpg)
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I've created dedicated topic for it: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/salora-sv-8800-(aka-mitsubishi-hs-b1020)-vhs-vcr-repair/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/salora-sv-8800-(aka-mitsubishi-hs-b1020)-vhs-vcr-repair/) - because we are in Rigol topic :D
I mean that i've adjusted maximum time for working head, that's why gap is not 50% of field. Yes gap = low signal - I just mean that it looks like gap compare to normal signal level.
Thanks!
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how do you know its boxcar averaging?
This is quite easy: When doing a single shot trace of preset sample count and analyze the individual samples, you can easily see the quntization of the values (like the "bins" in a histogram). At 1.25MSa/s, 1V/div you will find a quantization of approx. 2.31mv, which, assuming a quantization of 12bits (as per Rigol's specs), results in a total peak-to-peak range of approx. 9.5V which easily matches the 8 vertical divisions (8V) of visible vertical range.
The same test with a sampling rate of 100kSa/s has a quantization of approx. 0.2875mV which leads to a resolution in the ballpark of 15 bits. Since in a single shot, the calculation of a classic "isotemporal" average isn't possible, and the sampling engine itself can still be kept running at its "native" speed, it's a reasonable approach to average the "raw" samples that fall between two "shadow memory" (software) samples, into each adjacent s/w sample, resulting in the observed increase in resolution. And that's just boxcar averaging.
So to cut a long story short, just the fact to find a higher than hardware resolution in down-sampled single shot traces indicates that some kind of boxcar averaging has been applied to decimate the ADC raw data.
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how do you know its boxcar averaging?
This is quite easy: When doing a single shot trace of preset sample count and analyze the individual samples, you can easily see the quntization of the values (like the "bins" in a histogram). At 1.25MSa/s, 1V/div you will find a quantization of approx. 2.31mv, which, assuming a quantization of 12bits (as per Rigol's specs), results in a total peak-to-peak range of approx. 9.5V which easily matches the 8 vertical divisions (8V) of visible vertical range.
The same test with a sampling rate of 100kSa/s has a quantization of approx. 0.2875mV which leads to a resolution in the ballpark of 15 bits. Since in a single shot, the calculation of a classic "isotemporal" average isn't possible, and the sampling engine itself can still be kept running at its "native" speed, it's a reasonable approach to average the "raw" samples that fall between two "shadow memory" (software) samples, into each adjacent s/w sample, resulting in the observed increase in resolution. And that's just boxcar averaging.
So to cut a long story short, just the fact to find a higher than hardware resolution in down-sampled single shot traces indicates that some kind of boxcar averaging has been applied to decimate the ADC raw data.
The basic question still stands, you have shown the quantisation levels improve with a lower acquisition sample rate but that only indicates some form of filtering. Boxcar is cheap/easy so probably the case, but it is not know to be boxcar yet (measure the frequency response out into aliasing to be sure which filter is used).
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how do you know its boxcar averaging?
This is quite easy: When doing a single shot trace of preset sample count and analyze the individual samples, you can easily see the quntization of the values (like the "bins" in a histogram). At 1.25MSa/s, 1V/div you will find a quantization of approx. 2.31mv, which, assuming a quantization of 12bits (as per Rigol's specs), results in a total peak-to-peak range of approx. 9.5V which easily matches the 8 vertical divisions (8V) of visible vertical range.
The same test with a sampling rate of 100kSa/s has a quantization of approx. 0.2875mV which leads to a resolution in the ballpark of 15 bits. Since in a single shot, the calculation of a classic "isotemporal" average isn't possible, and the sampling engine itself can still be kept running at its "native" speed, it's a reasonable approach to average the "raw" samples that fall between two "shadow memory" (software) samples, into each adjacent s/w sample, resulting in the observed increase in resolution. And that's just boxcar averaging.
So to cut a long story short, just the fact to find a higher than hardware resolution in down-sampled single shot traces indicates that some kind of boxcar averaging has been applied to decimate the ADC raw data.
The basic question still stands, you have shown the quantisation levels improve with a lower acquisition sample rate but that only indicates some form of filtering. Boxcar is cheap/easy so probably the case, but it is not know to be boxcar yet (measure the frequency response out into aliasing to be sure which filter is used).
i tested with his setting, i dont see any boxcar (or running) averaging.. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5124315/#msg5124315 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5124315/#msg5124315)
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The basic question still stands, you have shown the quantisation levels improve with a lower acquisition sample rate but that only indicates some form of filtering. Boxcar is cheap/easy so probably the case, but it is not know to be boxcar yet (measure the frequency response out into aliasing to be sure which filter is used).
Generally speaking, you are correct. But do you seriously suggest that Rigol implemented a more sophisticated decimating approach that includes trends of sample batches or other advanced filtering? :-// Whatsoever, I cannot do any testing anymore since "my" specimen of the DHO914S is on its return route to the distributor.
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Are there any mods to these scopes yet to unlock bandwidth etc? I wonder if it's possible to copy the contents of the SD card to a faster card to perhaps improve boot times? In the eevblog video he said he couldn't read the contents of the card, maybe there is some software that will do a low-level copy of the content?
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Are there any mods to these scopes yet to unlock bandwidth etc? I wonder if it's possible to copy the contents of the SD card to a faster card to perhaps improve boot times? In the eevblog video he said he couldn't read the contents of the card, maybe there is some software that will do a low-level copy of the content?
Try the hacking thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/)
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Thanks, I'm new here :)
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Using a mouse is more effective but wait, for this need you only have 1 USB A port and it seems from reports a USB hub will freeze the scope.
I've been using a mouse and USB stick on a cheap hub all week with no problems.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=1899483;image)
I just got a nicer hub and that works, too.
Did you manage to unlock the 50 Mpts memory depth?
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on to DHO800's LiteOn PSU... (beware this is non-reversible invasive action to tear down)
only 3 wires to USB3 connector, black (gnd), blue?, red?. so what kind of PD is this? when not connected to DSO, blue is 4.11V, red is 0V, once connected whether on or off, blue is 1.68V, red is 15V. i tried $1.50 USB3 DC pigtail to power DSO from SMPS PSU... if 12V, current is 3A, if 15V, current is 2.37A during operation (at boot up , its half that). so its a preferable fact that PSU/DSO is not that complicated to handle/diy, fwiw...
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I just got started doing some tests with my DHO914S
Using mouse combined with HDMI out is workable, using the web could lag up to 2 sec but could be fast enough, it's not a fixed latency.
I do use the phone or tablet to take screenshots, take screenshot and then long press in browser download image on phone. (they are in jpg though not png, that should be an easy change)
-AWG: starting from 25kHz up to 50kHz it can't make up its mind about which rise time it is going to use, see screenshot.
min 7.3ns max 11ns
-I connected the trigger out to the input, looks like a delay of 419ns (see screenshot)
The cursors are the jitter range 6ns
-I don't have a fast edge pulse generator but the DG4000 sync out gives me 2.14ns (160Mhz)
(I don't know what the rise time is of the DG4000 sync out, 1ns?, so 250Mhz BW seems possible)
P.S my tek2465 died today, spark noises and smoke cloud, I wasn't completely surprised . I guess it couldn't handle the mental pressure of a third oscilloscope. ;)
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P.S my tek2465 died today, spark noises and smoke cloud, I wasn't completely surprised . I guess it couldn't handle the mental pressure of a third oscilloscope. ;)
Hopefully just those pesky "Rifa" time bombs!!
Best,
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(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1907019;image)
You added a carrying handle to your siggen? :)
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on to DHO800's LiteOn PSU... (beware this is non-reversible invasive action to tear down)
only 3 wires to USB3 connector, black (gnd), blue?, red?. so what kind of PD is this? when not connected to DSO, blue is 4.11V, red is 0V, once connected whether on or off, blue is 1.68V, red is 15V. i tried $1.50 USB3 DC pigtail to power DSO from SMPS PSU... if 12V, current is 3A, if 15V, current is 2.37A during operation (at boot up , its half that). so its a preferable fact that PSU/DSO is not that complicated to handle/diy, fwiw...
Do you have any images of the PSU board? Does it have all the proper filtering and decent quality components?
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You added a carrying handle to your siggen? :)
thats the small part. the bigger part why its there is at the back of the siggen... https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uni-t-utg932utg962-200msas-function-arbitrary-waveform-generator-220394/msg4434787/#msg4434787 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uni-t-utg932utg962-200msas-function-arbitrary-waveform-generator-220394/msg4434787/#msg4434787)
on to DHO800's LiteOn PSU... (beware this is non-reversible invasive action to tear down)
only 3 wires to USB3 connector, black (gnd), blue?, red?. so what kind of PD is this? when not connected to DSO, blue is 4.11V, red is 0V, once connected whether on or off, blue is 1.68V, red is 15V. i tried $1.50 USB3 DC pigtail to power DSO from SMPS PSU... if 12V, current is 3A, if 15V, current is 2.37A during operation (at boot up , its half that). so its a preferable fact that PSU/DSO is not that complicated to handle/diy, fwiw...
Do you have any images of the PSU board? Does it have all the proper filtering and decent quality components?
no i dont have. the heatsink enclosing the pcb is tightly glued to the pcb and components, so i'm not intending to damaging all those, otherwise restoring them will be messy. i just assume LiteOn did their good job, i only want to know what wires that goes to the USB3 connector.
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so what kind of PD is this?
PD is only three wires AFAIK. Two for power and one for serial comms.
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USB-PD needs a minimum of three wires. VBUS, CC1, or CC2 and GND also highlighted on the board https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1907013;image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1907013;image)
Placement in a TypeC connection.
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/uploads/articles/Fig1m11292018.png (https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/uploads/articles/Fig1m11292018.png)
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on to DHO800's LiteOn PSU... (beware this is non-reversible invasive action to tear down)
only 3 wires to USB3 connector, black (gnd), blue?, red?. so what kind of PD is this? when not connected to DSO, blue is 4.11V, red is 0V, once connected whether on or off, blue is 1.68V, red is 15V. i tried $1.50 USB3 DC pigtail to power DSO from SMPS PSU... if 12V, current is 3A, if 15V, current is 2.37A during operation (at boot up , its half that). so its a preferable fact that PSU/DSO is not that complicated to handle/diy, fwiw...
Only 3 wires is acceptable, as only one CC is required when terminated with a plug: it's up to the receptacle end to figure out which is active by terminating both CC1 and CC2 separately, each with a 5.1k pull down, and measure which one has a corresponding pull up, indicating it's the right CC line to negotiate capabilities and coordinate settings.
"Figure 2-2 illustrates the comprehensive functional signal plan for the USB Type-C plug. Only one CC pin is connected through the cable to establish signal orientation"
(Ref for the nerds: USB Type-C Cable and Connector Specification Release 2.2, Section 2.1 pp 31-32 https://www.usb.org/document-library/usb-type-cr-cable-and-connector-specification-release-22 (https://www.usb.org/document-library/usb-type-cr-cable-and-connector-specification-release-22)).
Here's my LiteOn, together with a capture of the capabilities, captured with a Cypress CY4500 protocol analyser (hooked up to a PD trigger board) and corresponding scope traces. These were taken at PD trigger insertion.
I didn't take any current measurements, but I did measure the claimed voltage domains, and all were supported when I selected each one with the PD trigger.
The Cypress CY4500 is a very useful tool for PD debugging, it bridges the gap between a scope and LA as the protocol decoder on the CY4500 is generally more useful than any scope PD decoder I've encountered such as in the MSO3000T, unless you're interested in the weeds at the symbol level, as the CY4500 doesn't expose samples at high enough resolution in its time domain trace to be able to see the individual symbols (although it does decode perfectly).
Setting up the CY4500 software with the right firmware & software versions to begin with is a PITA: you need to install the original v1.0.0 PC software first to update the device's firmware, then install the V3 software as the V3 software doesn't recognise the device with earlier firmware. https://community.infineon.com/t5/USB-EZ-PD-Type-C/CY4500-failed-to-detect-device-for-upgrade-firmware/td-p/332299 (https://community.infineon.com/t5/USB-EZ-PD-Type-C/CY4500-failed-to-detect-device-for-upgrade-firmware/td-p/332299)
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I didn't take any current measurements, but I did measure the claimed voltage domains, and all were supported when I selected each one with the PD trigger.
Looks like it's a good phone charger, too!
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Here's my LiteOn, together with a capture of the capabilities, captured with a Cypress CY4500 protocol analyser (hooked up to a PD trigger board) and corresponding scope traces. These were taken at PD trigger insertion.
looks complicated than i thought. i was only interested to see how to make my own battery powered PSU. btw, this forum is fucked up... when i click the first image's thumbnail, different picture popped out, this happen frequently now... >:( see attached.. even when i make a post with attachments, every time the first picture i uploaded in the list will become the last in my post, i have to shuffle the order to get correct view, really fucked up... :palm: now i'm not sure if you people can see my attachments the way i see them from here.
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Here's my LiteOn, together with a capture of the capabilities, captured with a Cypress CY4500 protocol analyser (hooked up to a PD trigger board) and corresponding scope traces. These were taken at PD trigger insertion.
looks complicated than i thought. i was only interested to see how to make my own battery powered PSU. btw, this forum is fucked up... when i click the first image's thumbnail, different picture popped out, this happen frequently now... >:( see attached.. even when i make a post with attachments, every time the first picture i uploaded in the list will become the last in my post, i have to shuffle the order to get correct view, really fucked up... :palm: now i'm not sure if you people can see my attachments the way i see them from here.
Yes, weird stuff happens when I try to edit a message and amend image attachments. It gets confused.
Here are the images again.
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Here are the images again.
now it worked thanks.. i thought you dismantled your PSU like i did, but you have a dedicated PD tester. the USB3 pins are too deep and tiny inside for my DMM probe to reach. so i have to cut open the enclosure. now its taped back again no worry.
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Here are the images again.
now it worked thanks.. i thought you dismantled your PSU like i did, but you have a dedicated PD tester. the USB3 pins are too deep and tiny inside for my DMM probe to reach. so i have to cut open the enclosure. now its taped back again no worry.
So, from what I saw on your previous photo, the oscilloscope power on and operates fine if I only connect +12V (red) and GND (black) ignoring the blue wire (Vbus) right? This will make building a battery very simple.
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Here are the images again.
now it worked thanks.. i thought you dismantled your PSU like i did, but you have a dedicated PD tester. the USB3 pins are too deep and tiny inside for my DMM probe to reach. so i have to cut open the enclosure. now its taped back again no worry.
So, from what I saw on your previous photo, the oscilloscope power on and operates fine if I only connect +12V (red) and GND (black) ignoring the blue wire (Vbus) right? This will make building a battery very simple.
yes its that simple. i tried it with DC (black red wires) to USB3 connector, i just dont know long term consequences... but it should be similar concept as 1st batch DHO800 which came with crappy 2 wires adapter found in OP. otoh my tear down only proved (and Howardlong's probing) the LiteOn adapter is probably USB3 PD 3 wires compliant PSU..
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I tried charging a phone with the new adapter and it worked really well (did a "fast charge")
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I didn't take any current measurements, but I did measure the claimed voltage domains, and all were supported when I selected each one with the PD trigger.
So it's a legal universal PD charger? It's said it should not used for smart phone somewhere I have forgoten, maybe in the manual.
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So it's a legal universal PD charger? It's said it should not used for smart phone somewhere I have forgoten, maybe in the manual.
Yes, it is a regular universal charger. Rigol originally planned to include a cheap fixed 12V charger and shipped the first (beta?) units with those. But they changed that last-minute, without updating the manual yet.
The fixed 12V charger can be recognized by its special plug, with a little pin that stops you from inserting it into 3rd party devices. The DHO800/900 has a little hole next to its charging jack which matches with that pin.
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The fixed 12V charger can be recognized by its special plug, with a little pin that stops you from inserting it into 3rd party devices. The DHO800/900 has a little hole next to its charging jack which matches with that pin.
Oh, I hadn't noticed that. They're not complete lunatics then. :-+
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- touchscreen (a personal preference, fiddly in some environments)
- separate grounding/PE wire (asks for trouble)
Disable button on the front panel. Everything can be done without the touch screen.
how to change trigger mode (auto, normal, single.. esp normal) without touch screen? i dont find a button or rotary knob to change that, must use touch screen on trigger window..
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- touchscreen (a personal preference, fiddly in some environments)
- separate grounding/PE wire (asks for trouble)
Disable button on the front panel. Everything can be done without the touch screen.
how to change trigger mode (auto, normal, single.. esp normal) without touch screen? i dont find a button or rotary knob to change that, must use touch screen on trigger window..
There's a lot of things that need the screen.
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When I get mine I will do a teardown and schematic for the PSU make sure it's built right and help people fault finding in the future.
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When I get mine I will do a teardown and schematic for the PSU make sure it's built right and help people fault finding in the future.
Thanks! Rigol are, however, already using two different PSU brands (LiteOn and Lenovo), in addition to the cheap 12V supplies which were used for the pilot units only. And I would not be too surprised if they are already looking for a new, cost-reduced but good-enough option, since the price of the LiteOn and Lenovo units is probably hurting them.
Tearing down those switched-mode supplies also tends to be a warranty-voiding exercise since you need to crack the case open...
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You have made me curious... ;)
You don't necessarily have to open it to find out what the quality is like.
Because in the end it's what comes out that matters....
I'm just thinking about a USB-C adapter on which you can make measurements.
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Or look for ripple when running scope on a battery.
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When I get mine I will do a teardown and schematic for the PSU make sure it's built right and help people fault finding in the future.
good luck with that.. the aluminium heatsink enclosing it is full of glue from inside. i was not intending to go further since a simple 12-15VDC using $2 2-wires USB3 will do just fine in case the bundled PSU fails... a properly designed USB3 PD compliant is only usefull if you want to charge smartphone with it, imho.
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When I get mine I will do a teardown and schematic for the PSU make sure it's built right and help people fault finding in the future.
What's the point of it, if they are using an off-she-shelf PSU? They can always switch to the new supplier, equally if user doesn't like it, he can easily use whatever USB-C PSU he likes, of which there are thousands on a market. PSU is one thing I don't really care about in this scope due to it being so easily replaceable.
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When I get mine I will do a teardown and schematic for the PSU make sure it's built right and help people fault finding in the future.
What's the point of it, if they are using an off-she-shelf PSU? They can always switch to the new supplier, equally if user doesn't like it, he can easily use whatever USB-C PSU he likes, of which there are thousands on a market. PSU is one thing I don't really care about in this scope due to it being so easily replaceable.
LiteOn do have a good reputation, they're often shipped with Intel NUCs for example.
One caveat about using your own third party PSU is that often the multi-outlet PD PSUs re-negotiate all ports whenever anything is plugged or unplugged. For a battery powered laptop or phone, this behaviour is relatively benign, but for a scope without battery backup the bahaviour will be a shutdown or restart.
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Great, my posts from yesterday went with in the split thread.... ::)
So again:
I want to see the signal quality of the LiteON power supply (ripple) without having to open the power supply.
So I ordered usb-c breakout boards, which I will put between the power supply and the scope and can then measure.
And implement the suggestion of TimFox and supply the rigol scope with a linear power supply (and see what happens in terms of noise on the reference signal for the probe alignment).
Nice side effect, I can then also check the accuracy of my usb-c powermeter.
Today the boards arrived, tomorrow will be tinkered. 8)
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TimFox and supply the rigol scope with a linear power supply
I'm using linear PS with my scope now. On a good old iron transformer. I can confirm 40-50 kHz switching spikes are gone.
It's important to get rid of switching power source completely, because of EMI and strong introduction of noise from the mains line.
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Does anyone know if for cursor measurements one set of cursors can be disabled?
I don't think so. You have to have all four enabled at once.
No X or Y, just both ?
:-//
I checked both the scope and the manual, it looks like only both. But if it can handle, why not? You can move the axis you don't want out of the screen until delta is 0, if it bothers you. What I don't like is that there is no knob that can move both X1 and X2 or Y1 and Y2 at the same time once you have the delta fixed
Once you enable the cursors on the screen, the "cursor" measurement item shows in RHS "Result" pane.
If you tap on the "Cursors" item there a pop-up menu will show next to it with top option "settings".
You can select here with cursors are manual or tracking, etc. Also AX BX fixed reference can be locked here.
Press on knob 1 or 2 with toggle between active axis.
Hope this helps... this is not so obvious.
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Nice screen, but dim.
Mine seems plenty bright enough but I guess it depends on your ambient lighting.
I haven't found a brightness control anywhere.
Compared to our Siglent SDS2000X+, KS34465A and other instruments, the DHO814 screen is much dimmer, even in this image it shows, and it actual visual use much dimmer than on the image displayed. Trace brightness is not even close to Siglent trace brightness, which is set to just 52%.
The reflective screen makes this even more difficult for viewing. Just barely acceptable IMO, and will be a tad more difficult in a bright environment.
Best,
There is a way to change brightness with ADB. Current setting on mine out of factory was 209 over 255 (max).
However there isn't big difference between 209 and 255.. minor increase.
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I used 16 MHz deliberately to illustrate point of very common signal (Arduino clock), being square wave, will have much larger frequency content of 16 MHz. This is common mistake with beginners, they buy 100 MHz BW scope to look at 50 MHz square wave because it is only 50 MHz, right.
Beginners buy 100 MHz scope to watch 50 MHz square waves because that's all they can afford. There is no mistake here. I would gladly buy a 9000 GHz scope if I could afford it, and so would vast majority of "beginners" (and non-beginners too).
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More realistically:
Beginners buy 100 MHz scope because that's all they can afford.
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There is a way to change brightness with ADB. Current setting on mine out of factory was 209 over 255 (max).
However there isn't big difference between 209 and 255.. minor increase.
Nope. That setting is only the brightness during boot. The system changes it to 255 when the main app starts.
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If you tap on the "Cursors" item there a pop-up menu will show next to it with top option "settings".
I hadn't seen that one yet... :)
Measurements can also have visual "indicators" to show you where the measurements come from. Tap a measurement and select "indicator" to enable it.
eg. Vpp shows min/max.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1912989;image)
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If you tap on the "Cursors" item there a pop-up menu will show next to it with top option "settings".
I hadn't seen that one yet... :)
Measurements can also have visual "indicators" to show you where the measurements come from. Tap a measurement and select "indicator" to enable it.
eg. Vpp shows min/max.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1912989;image)
Just a comment. Those are called measurements cursor's in other brands. Rigol has amusing policy to call same things differently than the rest of industry. That is also sometimes a reason for confusion when we are asking "does it have this or that ?" questions.
Segmented memory -> Recording
Indicators -> Measurement cursors
We could make an dictionary for non Rigolians... :-DD
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Just a comment. Those are called measurements cursor's in other brands.
[...]
Indicators -> Measurement cursors
Is that so? Seems to me that the term "measurement cursor" is (also?) used to designate the cursors which you move interactively to take a measurement manually. I quite like the clearly different term "indicator" for the automatically positioned lines which show you where the scope has taken its automatic measurements.
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Just a comment. Those are called measurements cursor's in other brands.
[...]
Indicators -> Measurement cursors
Is that so? Seems to me that the term "measurement cursor" is (also?) used to designate the cursors which you move interactively to take a measurement manually. I quite like the clearly different term "indicator" for the automatically positioned lines which show you where the scope has taken its automatic measurements.
Usually: Manual / Tracking / Measurement
I'm not saying it is wrong. That is why I said just a comment...
It is not illogical. Just different...
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KISS = Cursors.
Then menus provide what types.
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Just a comment. Those are called measurements cursor's in other brands. Rigol has amusing policy to call same things differently than the rest of industry.
In the save window there is the "overlay" toggle. That should be "OVERWRITE", as common sense suggests! :palm:
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Just a comment. Those are called measurements cursor's in other brands. Rigol has amusing policy to call same things differently than the rest of industry.
In the save window there is the "overlay" toggle. That should be "OVERWRITE", as common sense suggests! :palm:
Yes thank you. That is what I was saying. Logically it makes sense, it is going to overlay file on top of existing one.
But that is not how it is usual to say it in English for that operation.
This also might be the language barrier. Like when Chinese sellers on Ebay use word welding for soldering and welding.
Which is because in Chinese that is how they say it.
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There is a way to change brightness with ADB. Current setting on mine out of factory was 209 over 255 (max).
However there isn't big difference between 209 and 255.. minor increase.
Nope. That setting is only the brightness during boot. The system changes it to 255 when the main app starts.
In my case ADB setting (settings put system screen_brightness 120) absolutely survives full device power cycle, including removing power source at the back.
I can confirm app's brightness adjustment during boot time in the sequence of high, lower then high again, but then finally it sets to what is configured with above command.
My preferred is 120.
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And implement the suggestion of TimFox and supply the rigol scope with a linear power supply (and see what happens in terms of noise on the reference signal for the probe alignment).
Not much... ;)
The rigol supplied with a linear supply has not changed much regarding the ripple on "my" reference signal.
But at least I could look at the currents with a multimeter, the comparison with the usb powermeter will follow soon.
Voltage: 15.04V Current : 14mA (Scope in standby)
Voltage: 15.06V Current : 2.49A +/-60mA (Scope on)
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Also worth mentioning is that these things just don't seem to slow down.
Here I turned on three different FFTs (each one with a different window function), a math function and some tables and it was perfectly happy:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1914801;image)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KQHHkshUto (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KQHHkshUto)
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Just a comment. Those are called measurements cursor's in other brands. Rigol has amusing policy to call same things differently than the rest of industry. That is also sometimes a reason for confusion when we are asking "does it have this or that ?" questions.
No... these aren't cursor measurements. Cursors are things you turn on and move around by hand to measure things on screen.
These "indicators" move around automatically to show you where the measurement functions are getting their numbers from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvu4VOrufnc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvu4VOrufnc)
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Just a comment. Those are called measurements cursor's in other brands. Rigol has amusing policy to call same things differently than the rest of industry. That is also sometimes a reason for confusion when we are asking "does it have this or that ?" questions.
No... these aren't cursor measurements. Cursors are things you turn on and move around by hand to measure things on screen.
These "indicators" move around automatically to show you where the measurement functions are getting their numbers from.
::)
Known in the industry as Tracking Cursors.
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Is there possibility to show freq like 4.43361875 Mhz, my dho804 only shows like rounded to 4.4444 - only 4 digits after dot :(
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Is there possibility to show freq like 4.43361875 Mhz, my dho804 only shows like rounded to 4.4444 - only 4 digits after dot :(
You can change the "resolution" in the Counter settings. The limit is 6 digits though.
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Is there possibility to show freq like 4.43361875 Mhz, my dho804 only shows like rounded to 4.4444 - only 4 digits after dot :(
I don't have a signal source to test this. Is the accuracy 4 decimal places or 100s of Hz?
Shouldn't it round 4.43361874 to 4.4336 using the round half up rounding method?
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Three pics, 3-digits(min), 4-digits(def)and 6-digits(max).
The adjusted frequency is 4.545672 Mhz...
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These "indicators" move around automatically to show you where the measurement functions are getting their numbers from.
::)
Known in the industry as Tracking Cursors.
Now you got me confused...
I thought Tracking Cursors follow f(X) along the trace itself (or a math function), where X is given by the manually adjusted position of the X cursor?
In contrast, Rigol's "Indicators" show where on the trace an automatic measurement is taken, say a period duration or Vmax/Vmin values. I believe 2N3055 had stated earlier that these are known as Measurement Cursors on some other scopes?
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:)
There are many ways measurements can be user specified.
Tracking XY cursors
Gated measurements
Statistics: Min, Max, Avg, Std Dev
Etc
All accepted in the industry without need to reinvent the wheel.
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:)
There are many ways measurements can be user specified.
Tracking XY cursors
Gated measurements
Statistics: Min, Max, Avg, Std Dev
Etc
All accepted in the industry without need to reinvent the wheel.
Yes, I am aware of all these. But what does this have to do with the terminology question I asked?
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I believe 2N3055 had stated earlier that these are known as Measurement Cursors on some other scopes?
At the DHO, they are also called that.
In manual mode, you place the cursors where you want them and read the result.
In track mode, you can, for example, track X, i.e. move and Y is guided and displays the corresponding position value, or track Y and X is guided and displays the corresponding value.
As well as the combination of X and Y.
I personally like the manual function, the other confuses me. ;)
At work, I like to use a previously set measurement window, which I can then move horizontally, e.g. for the evaluation of a load jump.
I have not yet found this gate function in the rigol, which is available in lecroy and siglent separately identified (measurement gate: Normal across the entire width of the screen as the default setting, but you can also set the window manually).
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Lately I seem to struggle to express my thoughts or questions clearly.
That, or you guys are all very sloppy readers. :P
In manual mode, you place the cursors where you want them and read the result.
Got that. Let's call these "manual cursors". That's what the Rigol dialog seems to call them, and how 2N3055 called them too. OK?
In track mode, you can, for example, track X, i.e. move and Y is guided and displays the corresponding position value, or track Y and X is guided and displays the corresponding value.
As well as the combination of X and Y.
Yep. That's what I tried to describe in my earlier post, and what everybody seems to agree are called "tracking cursors". (Except for Tautech, who used that term for something else, namely the type of cursors mentioned down at the end of this post.)
At work, I like to use a previously set measurement window, which I can then move horizontally, e.g. for the evaluation of a load jump.
I have not yet found this gate function in the rigol, which is available in lecroy and siglent separately identified (measurement gate: Normal across the entire width of the screen as the default setting, but you can also set the window manually).
"Gated measurements", at least in Keysight terminology, right? I don't think the Rigol DHO has these.
So, now for my question again:
How does "the industry" call those lines which indicate where an automatic measurement, like a risetime, period or such, is being taken by the scope? "Indicators" in Rigol terminology. Are these "measurement cursors" elsewhere? Or which other term is the "industry standard" for these?
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How does "the industry" call those lines which indicate where an automatic measurement, like a risetime, period or such, is being taken by the scope? "Indicators" in Rigol terminology. Are these "measurement cursors" elsewhere? Or which other term is the "industry standard" for these?
You didn't formulate your question like this before, so the sloppiness of the others is not applicable... ;)
Now at least I know what you mean, let me think about what that is called, it has nothing to do with cursors, at least I know that right now.
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You didn't formulate your question like this before, so the sloppiness of the others is not applicable... ;)
Now at least I know what you mean, let me think about what that is called, it has nothing to do with cursors, at least I know that right now.
Apparently I am struggling with the wording ;) -- I still can't see where my earlier attempt, in response to tautech's claim that these were "tracking cursors", was lacking?
Now you got me confused...
I thought Tracking Cursors follow f(X) along the trace itself (or a math function), where X is given by the manually adjusted position of the X cursor?
In contrast, Rigol's "Indicators" show where on the trace an automatic measurement is taken, say a period duration or Vmax/Vmin values. I believe 2N3055 had stated earlier that these are known as Measurement Cursors on some other scopes?
Anyway, thanks for looking into it. I just came across a Keysight video where these indicators (in Rigol-speak) were called "markers". Is that it? -- Edit: Probably not. At least, "markers" seem to be a much broader concept in Keysight's terminology.
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I used term "measurements cursor". Cursors connected with automatic measurements.
They are sort of reverse of using manual cursors and have scope calculate some parameters from cursor position.
So you have automatic measurements that point where the cursors would be if you were using manual cursors.
This is to show you what automatic measurement is actually measuring.
There are also gating cursors or gates, they are used to limit measurement to just a part of waveform.
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I used term "measurements cursor". Cursors connected with automatic measurements.
Yes, that's what I remember, and what made sense to me.
But then tautech, with a lot of conviction and a big grin, stated that they were called "tracking cursors" -- which I believed I know to be something else, and which you had also explained to be different from measurement cursors. Four people thanked him for that, yourself included I believe.
And now Martin72 says that these "automatic measurement indicators" are not called cursors at all, but something else entirely; research ongoing.
It's complicated... I will forgive Rigol for calling them "indicators". ;)
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Edit: Probably not. At least, "markers" seem to be a much broader concept in Keysight's terminology.
Siglent calls it "Thresholds", LeCroy "Level", whereas with lecroy you can still set a kind of hysteresis.
I would only change the preset values if the measurement result seems implausible.
Most of the time it fits.
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But then tautech, with a lot of conviction and a big grin, stated that they were called "tracking cursors" -- which I believed I know to be something else, and which you had also explained to be different from measurement cursors.
He didn't say what industry he meant. You can take a guess as to what it is :-DD
Four people thanked him for that, yourself included I believe.
They always thank each other's posts.
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Before I get into this, please let me stress that this is not about "stirring the pot" or whatever. I genuinely want to make sure I understand the common terminology, such that I don't confuse others when talking about oscilloscope features and usage.
I read the manuals for the Siglent SDS2000X plus and SDS2000X HD to understand what nomenclature Siglent uses. Here's what I got from the manuals. Disclaimer: I may have overlooked something, or the scopes may have software features which are not mentioned in the manuals.
- There seems to be broad consensus on the terms "manual cursors" (user positions X and/or Y cursors manually) and "tracking cursors" (user positions X, scope moves Y cursor to the intersection point of X cursor and signal trace). Of course the Siglents provide this, as do the Rigol DHOs. Rigol also lets you toggle to a mode where you control the Y cursors and the X cursors follow along; I did not see that option mentioned by Siglent.
- I could not find anything corresponding to Rigol's "indicators" in either Siglent manual. (The scope takes automatic measurements and automatically places lines to indicate where they are taken.) Of course Siglent has a broad selection of automatic measurements, but I could not find any hint at graphical position indicators. So I believe tautech had simply misunderstood what the Rigol "indicators" described by Fungus do, and erroneously claimed that they were the same as "tracking cursors" elsewhere.
- On the other hand, Siglent gives the user more control over automatic measurements. You can define the time window within which automatic measurements are taken, via two "gate cursors" on the screen. Rigol's DHO does not seem to offer that facility. (But both brands offer control over the vertical thresholds used in automated measurements. No graphical cursors are used in that, the user just enters numbers in a dialog.)
So that's my current understanding. If I got something wrong, please feel free to correct! Otherwise I'm happy with this and will let the matter rest. :)
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I got chinglish camera app. Whenever a warning msgbox appears, i have a button to press with word 'I See', hilarious! I usually saw 'OK' button. Thats one way to do it i guess.. discussing linguistic thing will be no end. Those stuck with industrial terms, carry on.. bite your finger if you cant stand it.. or better, make industrial standard cheap accesible to anyone.
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Here is the snapshot.
On Keysight it is exactly the same, but Keysight does not allow you to take a screenshot with fly out menu.
It has been called cursor because it is a cursor and is implemented that way.
If Rigol decided to implement something that does this function (shows reference points for automated measurements) in a different manner then they call it something else. I think going against established practice is not helpful to new users who used other brands before. (it prolongs learning curve) but in the end most important thing is that it implements the function.
For this topic it would be more important for DHO800 users to verify it works well...
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Fungus had shared a couple of screenshots earlier, re-attached here. Looks like Rigol has given these "indicators" a different place in the UI, attaching them to the Measurement display and dialog (rather than the cursors): Tap an active measurement in the list on the right, and activate its indicator.
Rigol does not annotate the indicator lines with the measurement value directly, as Keysight does. While I like the Keysight display, given the Rigol's small screen size, that is probably a good compromise.
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Fungus had shared a couple of screenshots earlier, re-attached here. Looks like Rigol has given these "indicators" a different place in the UI, attaching them to the Measurement display and dialog (rather than the cursors): Tap an active measurement in the list on the right, and activate its indicator.
Rigol does not annotate the indicator lines with the measurement value directly, as Keysight does. While I like the Keysight display, given the Rigol's small screen size, that is probably a good compromise.
As I said first time, it does not matter in a long run. It is important it has the function.
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Fungus had shared a couple of screenshots earlier, re-attached here.
I think there was a video somewhere.
I like the name "indicator". To me a "cursor" is something you move by hand, eg. the cursor on a slide rule.
Let's not argue though, let's celebrate that we have them.
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Fungus had shared a couple of screenshots earlier, re-attached here.
I think there was a video somewhere.
I like the name "indicator". To me a "cursor" is something you move by hand, eg. the cursor on a slide rule.
Let's not argue though, let's celebrate that we have them.
Well "cursor" is basically "marker" of position... These terms are basically synonyms..
In strict sense "indicator" signifies state of something (ON/OFF for instance..)
But a measurement function is there. That is important.
I sometimes think Rigol has a chip on a shoulder connected with "lost love" with Keysight and they chose some terminology to differ from them on purpose.... :-DD
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In strict sense "indicator" signifies state of something (ON/OFF for instance..)
An indicator can also indicate the position of something, the direction of something, the type of something....
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In strict sense "indicator" signifies state of something (ON/OFF for instance..)
An indicator can also indicate the position of something, the direction of something, the type of something....
No, not really. That is different. Marker and Cursor have a coordinate as a data being communicated.
As GPS coordinate is a marker.
A cursor in text editor is physical position (coordinate) of where you insert text when typing.
Indicator signifies something is active.
Like direction indicators on your car that show the you "switched on" changing direction maneuver to the left or right.
They don't measure your position, they show a state : "intention to turn left, not going straight"
Direction is state of your azymuth, and type of something is also enumerative type. That is what I said.
But that is beside the point here.
Little DHO800 can show you where it makes measurements.
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[...]
But that is beside the point here.
Little DHO800 can show you where it makes measurements.
While I disagree with your etymology, I do agree with the conclusion. :)
I quite like that feature -- gives you peace of mind that your automatic measurement is actually looking where you want it to look.
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Every scope should have a VESA mount...
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Every scope should have a VESA mount...
Only scopes?
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At the moment, I can't think of any other measuring device for this.
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A flying soldering iron might come in handy at times, when there's a mess on my bench again. 8)
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(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1916418;image)
I'm calling "fake" on that. You don't need a VESA arm when there's that much space.
Where's all the piles of junk and half-finished circuits? That workbenchlooks like it belongs in the "Stock Electronic Image FAILS" thread.
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You mean like this cluttered bench!! If the DHO824 was ours, we would get a VESA mount for sure!!
Darn it, now everything's going to fall |O
Best,
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Where's all the piles of junk and half-finished circuits?
It´s called cleaning up, young man. ;)
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You mean like this cluttered bench!! If the DHO824 was ours, we would get a VESA mount for sure!!
Darn it, now everything's going to fall |O
Best,
You moved to Australia? :-DD
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You moved to Australia? :-DD
Nope, it was Rob that rented him some space. That's why he now needs the VESA to hold all the stuff. Since I'm in the antipodes, I'll be taking shelter... :)
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You moved to Australia? :-DD
Nope, it was Rob that rented him some space. That's why he now needs the VESA to hold all the stuff. Since I'm in the antipodes, I'll be taking shelter... :)
:-DD :-DD
But if you think about it, that is a good way to prevent dust on your equipment. You cut some wire, whoosh, falls away from the desk...
Self cleaning...Nice!!
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Well we did want to use a negative supply circuit and see the DHO824 slow rolling screen running left to right to see time reversed so we could view those non-causal Gibbs Ears!! Now we have to stand on our head to read the numbers on the DMMs since they are negative and too hard to read upside down :wtf:
Best,
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You moved to Australia? :-DD
Nope, it was Rob that rented him some space. That's why he now needs the VESA to hold all the stuff. Since I'm in the antipodes, I'll be taking shelter... :)
Are you ? Come visit.
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few pages of very on topic unbox and teardown.. 8)
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Well, coming from a DS1054z I guess I will save my money and just replace it by the Rigol DHO804 while prices are still high for the old unit.
But I am just curious about the linear USB power supply.
Are effects worth than with the internal one of a DS1054z?
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But I am just curious about the linear USB power supply.
Are effects worth than with the internal one of a DS1054z?
Not sure what you are referring to with the "linear USB power supply"? The DHO800/900 scopes come with a regular USB-C power supply, which is a switching supply capable of negotiating the right voltage. (DHO requests 15V.) Rigol currently ships Lenovo or LiteOn supplies.
There were some discussions whether power-supply noise might be leaking into the scope, but experiments with a linear supply showed no major change: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5139402/#msg5139402 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5139402/#msg5139402)
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Not 12V 4A?
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Here it sounds different: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5138067/#msg5138067 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5138067/#msg5138067)
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Note that I was looking for the cause of the "ripple" on the calibration signal and was able to rule out the power supply.
I don't know where he saw his ripple.
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Not 12V 4A?
Very early units in China were shipped with a fixed 12V supply, and I think that is what the user manual still describes. But all later production units came with the proper USB-C supplies which support Power Delivery negotiation, and the scope negotiates 15V on these according to several user reports. (12V is an uncommon voltage for USB PD -- added later or obsolete now, not sure.)
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Not 12V 4A?
Very early units in China were shipped with a fixed 12V supply, and I think that is what the user manual still describes. But all later production units came with the proper USB-C supplies which support Power Delivery negotiation, and the scope negotiates 15V on these according to several user reports. (12V is an uncommon voltage for USB PD -- added later or obsolete now, not sure.)
Thanks.
Are there any disadvantages if I want to use a 12V power supply? I have a 12V 120W linear power supply. I needed a linear power supply for the two "Micsig" because the wave was nice and clear with only that. The factory power supply is a disaster for me.
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(12V is an uncommon voltage for USB PD -- added later or obsolete now, not sure.)
It's an optional PD voltage, not obsolete. I don't think it's all that uncommon, really. I have several PD chargers & power bricks that support 12V.
The mandatory SPR voltages for PD are 5, 9, 15, and 20. All lower voltages below the max SPR voltage supported by a power supply must also be supported to be PD compliant. 12V being optional, though.
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Are there any disadvantages if I want to use a 12V power supply? I have a 12V 120W linear power supply. I needed a linear power supply for the two "Micsig" because the wave was nice and clear with only that. The factory power supply is a disaster for me.
Is the "disaster" occuring with the MicSig scopes or with the DHO800/900? -- Anyaway, I would not expect any problems using a fixed 12V supply. I assume Rigol moved away from them since the cheap power supply itself sucked and/or had compliance issues, not because the scope cannot deal with the 12V supply. Depending on how the scope generates its internal supply voltages, it will draw a bit more current than on 15V, or run a bit warmer.
[12V is] an optional PD voltage, not obsolete. I don't think it's all that uncommon, really. I have several PD chargers & power bricks that support 12V.
The mandatory SPR voltages for PD are 5, 9, 15, and 20. All lower voltages below the max SPR voltage supported by a power supply must also be supported to be PD compliant. 12V being optional, though.
Looks like 12V was specified in PD 1.0, but I can't see it mentioned in the PD 3.0 specification. (Well, in the various extracts I could find online. The full spec must be published somewhere?!) Anyway, I don't mean to argue. Rigol decided to go for 15V, for whatever reason, and the scope obviously run on either 12V or 15V.
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Are there any disadvantages if I want to use a 12V power supply? I have a 12V 120W linear power supply. I needed a linear power supply for the two "Micsig" because the wave was nice and clear with only that. The factory power supply is a disaster for me.
Is the "disaster" occuring with the MicSig scopes or with the DHO800/900?
The DHO900 has not arrived yet.
Micsig scopes with its own power supply.
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But I am just curious about the linear USB power supply.
Are effects worth than with the internal one of a DS1054z?
Not sure what you are referring to with the "linear USB power supply"? The DHO800/900 scopes come with a regular USB-C power supply, which is a switching supply capable of negotiating the right voltage. (DHO requests 15V.) Rigol currently ships Lenovo or LiteOn supplies.
There were some discussions whether power-supply noise might be leaking into the scope, but experiments with a linear supply showed no major change: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5139402/#msg5139402 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5139402/#msg5139402)
I also noticed a lot of discussion about the supplied power supply (switching) but nobody commented about the issue that most modern DSO's have internal switching power supplies and I think it is good that the DHO has an external power supply that can be replaced with a linear one if you need cleaner waveforms. Even the most expensive models have internal switching power supplies.
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Looks like 12V was specified in PD 1.0, but I can't see it mentioned in the PD 3.0 specification. (Well, in the various extracts I could find online. The full spec must be published somewhere?!) Anyway, I don't mean to argue. Rigol decided to go for 15V, for whatever reason, and the scope obviously run on either 12V or 15V.
Oh, I wasn't trying to argue either. Just offering what I'd read from the specs as clarification.
Reference: USB PD Spec Revision 3.2, Version 1.0, 2023-10 (https://www.usb.org/document-library/usb-power-delivery) (yes, the ink is still wet)
The fixed compliant voltages (5, 9, 15, 20) are described in section 10.2.2 "Normative Voltages and Currents" on starting on page 1038. This the mandatory part (indicated by the directive "...Shall support...") The SPR AVS (Adjustable Voltage Supply) part of the spec describes the ranges that supplies can optionally support. Section 10.2.3 "Optional Voltages/Currents" on page 1048 indicates two categories:
"Optional Normative Fixed, Variable, and Battery Supply" includes the statement "May Optionally supply additional Voltages and increased currents. However, the Optional Voltages Shall Not exceed 9V."
"Optional Normative SPR Programmable Power Supply" (aka PPS) states "The Max Voltage Shall Not exceed 21V while in SPR mode."
12V isn't called out specifically as it falls within the acceptable PPS range. Technically, a source and sink could negotiate 13.2V or any other odd value within the acceptable range as long as they meet the power constraints.
Section 10.2.2.2 (pages 1045-1047) describe the valid AVS operating ranges for different power configurations.
Example:
(https://www.morrisonline.us/images/Screenshot_2023.11.03_10h20m15s_1_USB_PD_R3_2%20V1.0%202023-10.pdf%20-%20Adobe%20Acrobat%20Reader%20(64-bit).png)
Pages 1049-1050 list examples of "what a power adapter that Advertises a particular PDP Rating May offer:"
2) PDP 36W implementation includes:
o 5V @ 3A,
o 9V @ 3A,
o 15 @ 2.4A,
o SPR AVS with 9V – 15V @ 2.4A,
o 9V Prog @ 3 A, and
o 15V Prog @ 2.4A.
There is an example of 12V negotiation specifically mentioned in the B appendices (pg 1069-1070, pg 1074) where various example negotiation scenarios are described, including a Tablet that attempts to negotiate 12V:
(https://www.morrisonline.us/images/Screenshot_2023.11.03_10h29m14s_2_USB_PD_R3_2%20V1.0%202023-10.pdf%20-%20Adobe%20Acrobat%20Reader%20(64-bit).png)
And a laptop negotiating with an attached USB hub:
(https://www.morrisonline.us/images/Screenshot_2023.11.03_10h44m56s_3_USB_PD_R3_2%20V1.0%202023-10.pdf%20-%20Adobe%20Acrobat%20Reader%20(64-bit).png)
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How do you guys in the Europe get your DHO800/900? I ordered from Batronix and they tell me the ETA will be mid-December :palm: .
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How do you guys in the Europe get your DHO800/900? I ordered from Batronix and they tell me the ETA will be mid-December :palm: .
Depends on the specific model, I guess. DHO914 is supposedly in stock at Batronix, and lead times for DHO800 are shorter than other DHO900 models. Other dealers might have different stock? The socially accepted method in Europe is to check dealers' websites for stock/lead time info, or call them or send an email if that info is not provided online. ;)
Are you really in China as your country flag suggests? Why would you order from Europe then? ???
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I got my DHO804 from Batterfly (Italy).
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Depends on the specific model, I guess. DHO914 is supposedly in stock at Batronix, and lead times for DHO800 are shorter than other DHO900 models.
So everybody is going for the DHO900? That's interesting...
Is it the color? The bandwidth? The Siggen?
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Depends on the specific model, I guess. DHO914 is supposedly in stock at Batronix, and lead times for DHO800 are shorter than other DHO900 models.
So everybody is going for the DHO900? That's interesting...
Is it the color? The bandwidth? The Siggen?
I don't think we can derive demand from the lead times. Maybe Rigol produces much more of the 800 series but did not estimate the balance quite right; maybe it's just the departure and arrival times of separate containers and ships?
Personally, if I should decide to get one of these small DHOs, it would indeed be a 900 model since I want the mixed-signal option. "Just" the 12 bit capability and touch screen alone would not be a sufficient step in functionality to justify replacing my old DS1054Z. And while I'm at it I would probably pick the 914S to also have the signal generator & Bode plot, just in case...
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I had an email discussion with eleshop. They are entirely dependent on the decisions Rigol makes. Sometimes, an ordered batch just doesn't come through. I think Rigol hugely underestimated the popularity of both the 800 and the 900 series .
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How do you guys in the Europe get your DHO800/900? I ordered from Batronix and they tell me the ETA will be mid-December :palm: .
Depends on the specific model, I guess. DHO914 is supposedly in stock at Batronix, and lead times for DHO800 are shorter than other DHO900 models. Other dealers might have different stock? The socially accepted method in Europe is to check dealers' websites for stock/lead time info, or call them or send an email if that info is not provided online. ;)
Are you really in China as your country flag suggests? Why would you order from Europe then? ???
Ah, I'm an expat in Switzerland.
I ordered DHO914S btw. Batronix has changed the lead time on the website several times, once it shows the stock is 3-7 days away, but then changed back to 21-40 days. DHO914 is exceptionally in stock currently it seems.
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Depends on the specific model, I guess. DHO914 is supposedly in stock at Batronix, and lead times for DHO800 are shorter than other DHO900 models.
So everybody is going for the DHO900? That's interesting...
Is it the color? The bandwidth? The Siggen?
In my case was the MSO. Not using it and no probe, but it is there in case you need it in the future. I prefer PC based logic analyzers and I have several of them, but for some extra $$$ you can have it integrated...
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I ordered DHO914S btw. Batronix has changed the lead time on the website several times, once it shows the stock is 3-7 days away, but then changed back to 21-40 days. DHO914 is exceptionally in stock currently it seems.
According to the website, the DHO914S is in stock here: https://rigolshop.eu/dho914s.html
Better take that with a grain of salt though and check with them before you consider cancelling your Batronix order...
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I think Rigol hugely underestimated the popularity of both the 800 and the 900 series .
I'm fairly sure they didn't. :)
The problem is that they have to supply the entire world and I doubt they're going to build extra factories just for this because demand will eventually level off. Better to have a supply shortage for a couple of months...
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Has anybody managed to install an FTP program on one of these? FTP access to screenshots is incredibly useful on my Micsig.
The scope is running an ftp server. You can
ftp scope-ip-address
or just use adb:
adb pull /data/UserData [to copy all the screenshots]
adb pull /data/UserData/RigolDS22.png [to copy RigolDS22.png, etc.]
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The scope is running an ftp server. You can
ftp scope-ip-address
I haven't tried that... I'll give it a go later. :-+
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The scope is running an ftp server. You can
ftp scope-ip-address
I haven't tried that... I'll give it a go later. :-+
Update: Yes, it works!
Now I can easily grab images in PNG format.
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Is the smell worse or better than 1054z?
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Is the smell worse or better than 1054z?
It was quite bad out of the box but it's pretty much gone now.
I left mine switched on for a few days in the spare room (to keep it warm) until it went.
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I just noticed the stats are reset when the 'scope is running and you change the vertical scale or horizontal time base.
Add that to the long list of ways to reset the stats that are better than having to manually reset them on other 'scopes.
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I just noticed the stats are reset when the 'scope is running and you change the vertical scale or horizontal time base.
This is a completely normal and logical behavior, as I know it from dozens of other scopes.
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I just noticed the stats are reset when the 'scope is running and you change the vertical scale or horizontal time base.
Add that to the long list of ways to reset the stats that are better than having to manually reset them on other 'scopes.
You just can't help yourself aren't you?.. You keep calling making fool of yourself... No matter how many times I try to teach you... :-DD
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Thank you,hubert.
My DHO804 is DHO924 now.
Two extra drams are only for LA.It can be unpopulate if doesn't use the LA .
The bandwidth is increased successfully.it has 800ps rise time now.
And the memory depth is 50M now.
Hi，I have a 804 now,I want to crack but I don't know how to do that.Can you give us some operational procedures?Of course need x.bin but others. :)
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Hi，I have a 804 now,I want to crack but I don't know how to do that.Can you give us some operational procedures?Of course need x.bin but others. :)
See here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5148330/#msg5148330 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5148330/#msg5148330)
The current preference is not to turn the DHO800 into a DHO900, because that has caused offset problems in several units. Rather, the DSO800 options for 50 MPts memory and 100 MHz bandwidth can be unlocked as described in the post I linked to. There is, however, no known way (yet?) to go to 250 MHz bandwidth and to enable the CAN and LIN decoders via this approach.
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100 MHz bandwidth can be unlocked as described in the post I linked to. There is, however, no known way (yet?) to go to 250 MHz bandwidth
But the "100Mhz" option seems to give 200Mhz of bandwidth (measured) for some reason, so... :-//
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Next up: WiFi.
Can anybody recommend a known model of WiFi dongle that works with these?
Aliexpress is fine. :)
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Next up: WiFi.
Can anybody recommend a known model of WiFi dongle that works with these?
Aliexpress is fine. :)
This one (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32971495598.html) should work... since rtl8188 works with most Android and Linux systems.
Floydfish already proved (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5100990/#msg5100990) that previously.
Also, there are several versions with an external antenna exist... Aliexpress (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004974247390.html) / Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/ASHATA-Wireless-Network-Adapter-External/dp/B07VGRNKP5/).
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Next up: WiFi.
Can anybody recommend a known model of WiFi dongle that works with these?
Aliexpress is fine. :)
This one (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32971495598.html) should work... since rtl8188 works with most Android and Linux systems.
Floydfish already proved (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5100990/#msg5100990) that previously.
Also, there are several versions with an external antenna exist... Aliexpress (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004974247390.html) / Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/ASHATA-Wireless-Network-Adapter-External/dp/B07VGRNKP5/).
:-+
I'll give it a shot.
People complain about these only having one USB port but I can grab files over HTTP or FTP so I don't need a USB stick, I use a stylus instead of a mouse, that means the USB port is mostly free at the moment.
One less cable is good, especially if I want to use it on the other side of the room. :)
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I'd appreciate it if someone who already has DHO900 with LA and caliper could make four precise measurements. #3 and #4 are the distances between the front surface of the scope shell and the plastic edge of the IDC socket, both sides should be measured... it seems to me the right side is slightly higher than the left.
I'm trying to adapt/design a nice-looking shell of DIY LA for new DHO scopes.
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One less cable is good, especially if I want to use it on the other side of the room. :)
how do you watch movie in your scope if its on the other room? or play tetris? :palm: over ftp? mine is less one cable too... ie usb cable without ethernet cable... and i can still watch movies and play games :P
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how do you watch movie in your scope if its on the other room? or play tetris? :palm: over ftp?
On my Micsig I used to go to youtube.com or copy the video file onto a USB stick. They support most video file formats.
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since i had a spare Wifi dongle i was also trying to use it with my DHO804. Without success so far.
In linux the Wifi dingle shows up as a:
0bda:8176 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTL8188CUS 802.11n WLAN Adapter
So it's a RTL8188 but an CUS and not EU.
I put the dongle into the oscilloscope first, turned it on and and started the android settings app with:
adb shell am start com.android.settings
then i tried to activate the Wifi in the menu, but it didn't turn on.
Did i do something wrong? Is there another way? Or is the RTL8188CUS just not supported by the driver?
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Did i do something wrong? Is there another way? Or is the RTL8188CUS just not supported by the driver?
Yep, this driver doesn't support RTL8188CUS, since it used the 8192 chipset and it requires 8192cu driver.
The list of supported device IDs by 8188eu:
056E:4008 Elecom Co., Ltd (Device name unknown)
07B8:8179 AboCom Systems Inc (Device name unknown)
0BDA:0179 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTL8188ETV Wireless LAN 802.11n Network Adapter
0BDA:8179 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTL8188EUS 802.11n Wireless Network Adapter
0DF6:0076 Sitecom Europe B.V. (Device name unknown)
2001:330F D-Link Corp. (Device name unknown)
2001:3310 D-Link Corp. (Device name unknown)
2001:3311 D-Link Corp. (Device name unknown)
-------
PS: It looks like some Chinese wifi dongles use RTL8188FTV chipset, so to ensure compatibility with the scope it'll be better to order the exact RTL8188EUS (RTL8188EU) or RTL8188ETV
Also be careful with TP-Link TL-WN725N which someone advised as compatible, since it has 3 versions... V1 uses RTL8188CUS, and V2/V3 use RTL8188EUS
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Can anybody recommend a known model of WiFi dongle that works with these?
@scopestuff confirmed that the TP-Link TL-WN725N works (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho914s-vs-siglent-sds1104x-e-hands-on-(i-have-both)/msg5115627/#msg5115627). That's the WiFi dongle supported by the SDS1104X-E (so some people here will already have one). In the US it's available on Amazon for $10 (https://www.amazon.com/wifi-adapter-usb-pc-network/dp/B008IFXQFU).
Also be careful with TP-Link TL-WN725N which someone advised as compatible, since it has 3 versions... V1 uses RTL8188CUS, and V2/V3 use RTL8188EUS
The one I got from Amazon exactly 1 year ago was hardware Rev 3.8 (from a label on the box). I'd think that anyone purchasing new stock should be fine. It enumerates as:
0bda:8179 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTL8188EUS 802.11n Wireless Network Adapter
(I really hate that WiFi vendors often don't change model numbers when they change to an incompatible chipset)
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Thanks, i didn't know that there are so many versions of RTL8188 dongles. And many offers don't specify which version it is. I ordered a new one which should be the EU version.
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I'd appreciate it if someone who already has DHO900 with LA and caliper could make four precise measurements. #3 and #4 are the distances between the front surface of the scope shell and the plastic edge of the IDC socket, both sides should be measured... it seems to me the right side is slightly higher than the left.
I'm trying to adapt/design a nice-looking shell of DIY LA for new DHO scopes.
Here is my measurements:
1 - 10.5mm
2 - 74mm
3 - 6.6mm
4 - 8mm
Yes, right side is higher (photo attached), and as you can see - edges are rounded, so 1 and 2 is slot size without edges, also socket is slightly smaller, than LA slot in plastic (second photo).
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My new Wifi dongle today and I got it working with my DHO804.
0bda:8179 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTL8188EUS 802.11n Wireless Network Adapter
I connected the Wifi dongle and a USB Keyboard over a powered USB hub to the oscilloscope, then i turned the oscilloscope on.
With the following adb command i opened the android settings app:
adb shell am start com.android.settings
Then i could choose the wifi network and enter the password with the usb keyboard.
to exit the settings app i used:
adb shell am force-stop com.android.settings
Is there an a way to get an onscreen keyboard?
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Rigol releases new firmware v00.01.02.00.00 for DHO800 / DHO900 ~ 2023.11.16
[Model Supported] All the DHO800/900 series oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date] 2023/11/2
[Updated Contents]
v00.01.02.00.00 2023/11/2
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem of UltraLab startup connection failure
3. Solve the problem of failure to save waveform in wfm format
4. Add education model equivalent settings
5. Solve the problem of unresponsive touch on startup screen
v00.01.01.00.02 2023/09/12
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Update Help Documents
Download:
https://alc-sh-wwwdownload.oss-cn-shanghai.aliyuncs.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Osscillscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.00.zip
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What is point 4?
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No idea, but but one thing in advance:
I have just installed the latest firmware - The hacks remain... ;)
Just for info.
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Rigol releases new firmware v00.01.02.00.00 for DHO800 / DHO900 ~ 2023.11.16
Download:
https://alc-sh-wwwdownload.oss-cn-shanghai.aliyuncs.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Osscillscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.00.zip (https://alc-sh-wwwdownload.oss-cn-shanghai.aliyuncs.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Osscillscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.00.zip)
Where do you get this info?
On the international site (https://int.rigol.com/products/detail/DHO800) it is 1.00 still.
On the rigolna.com (https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/) the latest firmware is 1.01
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No idea, but but one thing in advance:
I have just installed the latest firmware - The hacks remain... ;)
Just for info.
Can it calibrate itself as a DHO900 now?
-
v00.01.02.00.00 2023/11/2
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem of UltraLab startup connection failure
3. Solve the problem of failure to save waveform in wfm format
4. Add education model equivalent settings
5. Solve the problem of unresponsive touch on startup screen
So... none of the bugs we've been reporting here or anything really worth having? :(
v00.01.01.00.02 2023/09/12
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Update Help Documents
A minor update that wasn't released?
Download:
https://alc-sh-wwwdownload.oss-cn-shanghai.aliyuncs.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Osscillscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.00.zip
From Aliexpress??
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Chinese website
https://www.rigol.com/products/detail/DHO800 (https://www.rigol.com/products/detail/DHO800)
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Can it calibrate itself as a DHO900 now?
Do you mean the offset problem we had when we installed the 900 vendor ?
I haven't tried it yet, I was busy with the ultra acquire.
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Can it calibrate itself as a DHO900 now?
Do you mean the offset problem we had when we installed the 900 vendor ?
Yes. Release notes say there have been two changes to the calibration code. Maybe that got fixed.
-
I'm currently running the self-calibration on mine, I've only updated the firmware, but that was probably enough to give me an offset on each channel.
-
Did they fix any of the bugs reported here on the forum? If the release notes actually list all changes, it seems that the answer is "no". Maybe they have done more than what the notes say; wouldn't be the first time. Or maybe they just don't read this forum. :(
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Finding bugs only started a few weeks ago, when the first scopes were available in the rest of the world.
They can't implement it that quickly.
I'm currently thinking about whether I shouldn't throw the new firmware down again - self-calibration failed, new attempt...
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Or maybe they just don't read this forum. :(
I don't blame them for not reading this forum. The signal to argument ratio far is too low in every DHO800/900 thread.
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They also have their people here, they just don't make an active appearance.
(rigol.eu support, for example, was always well informed, at least that was the case in 2020)
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Hands off the firmware update!
The second attempt also failed.
Tomorrow I will see if I can downgrade again.
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Hands off the firmware update!
The second attempt also failed.
The firmware is an Aliexpress special?
Tomorrow I will see if I can downgrade again.
Downgrading works just fine on these... I've done it a few times.
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Yepp, couldn´t wait until tomorrow... ;)
Now the self-cal runs....let´s hope.
Hmm....looking a the message in the pic again, ADC core order...0-7 ? Eight cores??
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Final proof that the linked firmware is CRAP, Hands off !!! :scared:
After downgrading self-cal is OK.
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I don't blame them for not reading this forum. The signal to argument ratio far is too low in every DHO800/900 thread.
The bugs thread is quite good.
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Final proof that the linked firmware is CRAP, Hands off !!! :scared:
After downgrading self-cal is OK.
You should try to push old *.cal files before doing the first cal on 1.02 firmware.
And now you can use DHO924 vendor.bin with (almost) no offset and high voltage precision. :)
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I have a good experience with the 1.02 FW (DHO800 CN page (https://www.rigol.com/products/detail/DHO800) or direct link (https://alc-sh-wwwdownload.oss-cn-shanghai.aliyuncs.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Osscillscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.00.zip))
1) Now I can use DHO924 as a main firmware, zero offset could be removed by the calibration. And the voltage accuracy is great also.
2) Now ADC Gain self test is turned on by default.
3) AFE zero self cal procedure increases the DC offset badly. To restore it you can push old cal files and repeat default calibration.
Now it's time to hack it more. 8)
PS: push original old *.cal files (without default *.cal files), if your calibration fails.
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The new firmware has been withdrawn from the Chinese website. :palm:
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The new firmware has been withdrawn from the Chinese website. :palm:
The direct link (https://alc-sh-wwwdownload.oss-cn-shanghai.aliyuncs.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Osscillscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.00.zip) works. :popcorn:
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The new firmware has been withdrawn from the Chinese website. :palm:
The direct link (https://alc-sh-wwwdownload.oss-cn-shanghai.aliyuncs.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Osscillscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.00.zip) works. :popcorn:
Maybe, but there has to be some reason for the withdrawal.
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Maybe, but there has to be some reason for the withdrawal.
The link was to a file was on Aliexpress so maybe Rigol had it removed.
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How many people have seen this screen on their DHO? :popcorn:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1930719;image)
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You broke it ! :scared:
;)
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I've got WiFi! :)
The info screen says "disconnected" but WiFi is working and the IP address is correct.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1930755;image)
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This is my TP-Link WiFi adapter:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1930791;image)
I'm very surprised it works - I couldn't find a slot to insert the CD in the Rigol!
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WiFi settings are also remembered after the oscilloscope is restarted.
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How many people have seen this screen on their DHO? :popcorn:
What is the app full name?
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How many people have seen this screen on their DHO? :popcorn:
What is the app full name?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5168592/#msg5168592 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5168592/#msg5168592)
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WiFi settings are also remembered after the oscilloscope is restarted.
Yes.
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How many people have seen this screen on their DHO? :popcorn:
What is the app full name?
It's the Android OS App settings.
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WiFi settings are also remembered after the oscilloscope is restarted.
Yes.
It wasn't a question. :-DD
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It wasn't a question. :-DD
It wasn't an answer.
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Hello all, I just placed an order for the DHO802. Is there a list of hacks I should do when I get it? Or is there a list of things to know when it arrives?
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... Is there a list of hacks I should do when I get it? Or is there a list of things to know when it arrives?
Check this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/)
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Hello all, I just placed an order for the DHO802. Is there a list of hacks I should do when I get it? Or is there a list of things to know when it arrives?
Please, report us if there is some things specific for the 2ch version.
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Rigol releases new firmware v00.01.02.00.00 for DHO800 / DHO900 ~ 2023.11.16
[Model Supported] All the DHO800/900 series oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date] 2023/11/2
[Updated Contents]
v00.01.02.00.00 2023/11/2
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem of UltraLab startup connection failure
3. Solve the problem of failure to save waveform in wfm format
4. Add education model equivalent settings
5. Solve the problem of unresponsive touch on startup screen
v00.01.01.00.02 2023/09/12
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Update Help Documents
Download:
https://download.rigol.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Oscilloscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.00.zip
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This is the same file that was previously published.
Without any changes. :-//
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I would not use any firmware that is not also available from rigol.na and/or rigol.eu .
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The big brothers are on sale with 40% off!!!
https://eleshop.eu/test-measure/oscilloscopes/all-oscilloscopes/rigol-dho1074.html
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Tell me, why does adb not see my DHO ? USB debugging enabled. What else needs to be done?
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What else needs to be done?
You also need to tell us what you typed in ADB (not just "it failed!")
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What else needs to be done?
You also need to tell us what you typed in ADB (not just "it failed!")
The screenshot shows. Typed device search "./adb devices" typed in the terminal.
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What else needs to be done?
You also need to tell us what you typed in ADB (not just "it failed!")
The screenshot shows. Typed device search "./adb devices" typed in the terminal.
Ok, maybe you need a "connect" command...
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This is my TP-Link WiFi adapter:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1930791;image)
I'm very surprised it works - I couldn't find a slot to insert the CD in the Rigol!
Good to know :-+. I have one, for use with the Siglent SDS1104X-E. I will try it with DHO1074, it was shipped and will be delivered in 2-3 days.
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Good to know :-+. I have one, for use with the Siglent SDS1104X-E. I will try it with DHO1074, it was shipped and will be delivered in 2-3 days.
I case you missed it: The best way to set up WiFi is to connect dongle+keyboard simultaneously (with a USB hub) and type Win+N to get to the Android setup.
The keyboard works to type in your WiFi password, too.
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And implement the suggestion of TimFox and supply the rigol scope with a linear power supply (and see what happens in terms of noise on the reference signal for the probe alignment).
Not much... ;)
The rigol supplied with a linear supply has not changed much regarding the ripple on "my" reference signal.
But at least I could look at the currents with a multimeter, the comparison with the usb powermeter will follow soon.
Voltage: 15.04V Current : 14mA (Scope in standby)
Voltage: 15.06V Current : 2.49A +/-60mA (Scope on)
Offset range seems to be much better than is specified in datasheet : +/-1V for (500uV/div - 65mV/div).
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Knowing Rigol's history, there will be tons of bugs that takes years to fix. People get all exited about new equipment and then are super happy with every firmware release that fixes problems/bugs that should not have been there in the first place. ... I'm sceptical.
When do you estimate Siglent will get around to fixing their FFT? Dave saw some serious problems with it in his video.
See video at 32:17: https://youtu.be/S8jrpCoZyx8?t=1937 (https://youtu.be/S8jrpCoZyx8?t=1937)
(and look at how slow the Siglent FFT is by comparison... :o )
I believe the bigger question is when will Dave get to use DSO FFT correctly ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg5195079/#msg5195079 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg5195079/#msg5195079)
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Hello, Sir! Can you share of new firmware v00.01.02.00.00? It is no longer available on the rigol website.
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It is no longer available on the rigol website.
Now think about why...
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Today, firmware 01.01 was also removed from the site ))
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Today, firmware 01.01 was also removed from the site ))
Still available from Rigol Europe, both on the Support and Shop sites:
https://rigolshop.eu/dho924.html (https://rigolshop.eu/dho924.html)
https://www.rigol.eu/En/Index/listView/catid/28/tp/6/cat/7/xl/55 (https://www.rigol.eu/En/Index/listView/catid/28/tp/6/cat/7/xl/55)
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Yes, but they cleaned up here. https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/ (https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/) I was there this morning
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Yes, but they cleaned up here. https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/ (https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/) I was there this morning
I have not seen any DHO800 firmware on Rigol's North American site for a few weeks, if I recall correctly. And their selection of firmware is pretty thin in general . In Europe, they have two separate repositories: The Support section seems to have the latest firmware only, but a complete set for all products. The online shop's product descriptions still offer a history of older versions for download (at least for some products -- just checked it for the DHO1000 series).
I don't know why it is so hard for Rigol to maintain one consistent repository (or one per region, if they have to, but keeping them consistent).
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I don't know why it is so hard for Rigol to maintain one consistent repository (or one per region, if they have to, but keeping them consistent).
Looking at their scripting code, etc., it is not as if they are not capable of fixing this literally in minutes if they wanted to. This and other lack of elementary good release practices (like checking that firmware release notes are NOT encrypted for the MSO5000, etc.) is simply incomprehensible.
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Well, we don't know how independent the regional offices in the US and in Europe are -- and how competent...
I am one week and two emails into getting my 100 MPts option code, which was supposed to be included with my DHO1074, from the European office. >:(
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I am one week and two emails into getting my 100 MPts option code, which was supposed to be included with my DHO1074, from the European office. >:(
Same experience here. I bought from Rigol EU but through their Amazon.co.uk. store. Before purchase I asked them to confirm that the offer still included the memory option, given that it was now 40% cheaper than when originally listed. They replied within 24 hours to say that it did and that either the unit would have the option license already installed, or the code would be in the box. It wasn't. I messaged again and they told me they'd send it to me within three working days. Five working days later nothing. My third message saw a license code sent to me within 1 hour of me sending it.
Not the best customer experience but my point being that someone does seem to be reading emails/messages and acting, albeit they need reminders.
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FYI - the original firmware v0.01.00 zip package is pkg available from https://mall.rigol.com/item.html?item_id=1577
(the link is for the v0.01.00 pkg, but the text says v0.01.01)
Scroll to the bottom of the ad and click on the 6th tab over:
[attach=1]
Or direct from:
https://mall.rigol.com/item-downfile.html?file=https%3A%2F%2Fsupportcn.rigol.com%2FPublic%2FUploads%2Fuploadfile%2Ffiles%2Fftp%2FFirmware%2FDHO800_DHO900%28Software%29UpdateV00.01.00.zip
The v0.01.01 pkg can be downloaded too if you edit the above link. Trying v0.01.02 gets a dancing 404 robot.
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Tell me in which application you open the stored DHO signal for analysis. I couldn't open it in any way. Or share the link, please. How to do it.
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I searched but didn't find what this means in the 01.01 release notes :
"Remove all time-related displays on the instrument"
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I searched but didn't find what this means in the 01.01 release notes :
"Remove all time-related displays on the instrument"
they talked about it here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-oscilloscope-bug-reports-firmware/msg5090827/#msg5090827 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-oscilloscope-bug-reports-firmware/msg5090827/#msg5090827)
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I searched but didn't find what this means in the 01.01 release notes :
"Remove all time-related displays on the instrument"
It means they don't show the date/time anywhere now. The time was wrong because there's no battery-backed clock in side these.
It syncs time when you connect it to a network so they could have done it better but I guess that's the minority of users, so... :-//
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I just posted in the Hacking thread some info on using NFS to store your wave forms, recordings or settings on a NAS box - in general using a USB drive is the simplest but if you have the scope connected using Wifi the USB will be taken and a hub would have to be used, or if the scope is connected full time using Ethernet - this method can reduce the write cycles on the built-in SD card - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5228379/#msg5228379 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5228379/#msg5228379)
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The Utility icon on my DHO804 had an indicator on it this morning. (The scope is hooked up to wifi.) When I went into the Utility menu, it indicated that a firmware update was available. I clicked on an update button, and it installed version 01.01.02. It rebooted, and I validated that the new version was installed. The build date, per Utility->About, is 2023/11/09 17:35:40.
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The Utility icon on my DHO804 had an indicator on it this morning. (The scope is hooked up to wifi.) When I went into the Utility menu, it indicated that a firmware update was available. I clicked on an update button, and it installed version 01.01.02. It rebooted, and I validated that the new version was installed. The build date, per Utility->About, is 2023/11/09 17:35:40.
On the one hand I am pleased that the network update actually works (and that the "Utility/Update" menu entry is not just a misdirection for all who actually want to update via USB).
On the other hand, it makes me a bit nervous that oscilloscopes now also "phone home" to the manufacturer. That opens up new possibilities to detect or disable hacked licenses, if Rigol so desires. I think I will configure my firewall appropriately before connecting my new DHO1xx4 to the home network, and am happy to take the USB detour for firmware updates...
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The Utility icon on my DHO804 had an indicator on it this morning. (The scope is hooked up to wifi.) When I went into the Utility menu, it indicated that a firmware update was available. I clicked on an update button, and it installed version 01.01.02. It rebooted, and I validated that the new version was installed. The build date, per Utility->About, is 2023/11/09 17:35:40.
Let's see...
Mine doesn't. :-\
On the other hand, it makes me a bit nervous that oscilloscopes now also "phone home" to the manufacturer. That opens up new possibilities to detect or disable hacked licenses, if Rigol so desires.
People have been worrying about that for decades, Rigol hasn't done it yet...
(and won't, because it would be a sales disaster for them)
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On the other hand, it makes me a bit nervous that oscilloscopes now also "phone home" to the manufacturer. That opens up new possibilities to detect or disable hacked licenses, if Rigol so desires.
People have been worrying about that for decades, Rigol hasn't done it yet...
(and won't, because it would be a sales disaster for them)
Maybe... As long as the scopes were not calling back home, Rigol had no way to detect "home-made" licenses. Now, with the central generation of all purchased licenses via rigol.com and with scopes reporting back to base, they can detect this.
Rigol would also have new ways of addressing users directly, "talking" to them via their scopes. They could e.g. set the invalid licenses back to "trial" status for a while and encourage users to buy a permanent license. Ah, brave new world...
Sure, we don't know whether Rigol will take this step. Compared to the MSO5000 hackability, DHO users are already kept on a much tighter leash. Maybe that's good enough for Rigol, maybe not. As former "this is expensive" differentiators like 12 bit ADC and 10" or larger screen get commoditized, they may look for new ways to charge extra money.
In any case, my scope will not be allowed to phone home, via suitable firewall settings. That should work for now -- until the next generation of scopes insists on an online connection to check the license status every fortnight... ::)
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The Utility icon on my DHO804 had an indicator on it this morning.
Made me curious, just turned it on and...Bingo, same here.
Should I proceed..Ah, nevermind, I´ll take the risk...
More to come after this.
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Sure, we don't know whether Rigol will take this step. Compared to the MSO5000 hackability, DHO users are already kept on a much tighter leash.
You mean like having ADB access enabled by default?
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Done..
Pro: Hack remains, still having 50Mpts and (official) 100Mhz BW.
Con: Offset... :(
I´ll try the selfcal next evening.
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Sure, we don't know whether Rigol will take this step. Compared to the MSO5000 hackability, DHO users are already kept on a much tighter leash.
You mean like having ADB access enabled by default?
No, I mean the fact that they have now split the model tiers into separate product families (DHO800 vs. 900, DHO1000 vs. 4000). Where some of the higher-end options are not available to the lower-end family at all via entering a simple license key -- whether purchased or self-generated.
And I mean the presence of actual hardware differences between these families, so some functionality cannot be "unlocked" even via more advanced software hacking. A stark contrast to the MSO5000 approach, where everything is physically pre-installed even in the lowest-end model -- to the point of selling a "two-channel" version with four physical input channels.
I guess you are well aware of all this and just felt the need to ask a defiant question?
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Within the limits of the hardware that I paid for, there's nothing locked down.
My DHO804 would probably have been more expensive if it had the AWG built in.
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The Utility icon on my DHO804 had an indicator on it this morning.
Made me curious, just turned it on and...Bingo, same here.
Should I proceed..Ah, nevermind, I´ll take the risk...
More to come after this.
I also did the online update and tried to grab the GEL files it download. Unfortunately, I can't find where it was stored during the process.
I am curious what is the difference compared to the 1.02 firmware that released back in November (which was taken down after only 1 day)
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It's strange why some people receive updates, but there are none on the sites. I don't get the DHO802.
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It's strange why some people receive updates, but there are none on the sites. I don't get the DHO802.
Just give Rigol a few weeks... Keeping the firmware download sections on their various international sites updated and consistent has never been their strongest suit.
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Done..
Pro: Hack remains, still having 50Mpts and (official) 100Mhz BW.
Con: Offset... :(
I´ll try the selfcal next evening.
What can I say, a complete success. ;)
Flawless calibration, so it's clear that it's not the same firmware as the one that was briefly available.
Because with that one I not only had the offset, but also the fail status during calibration.
And as mentioned, the two hacks are not affected, so you can install it with confidence.
I'll have a look over the next few days to see if rigol has fixed more than stated.
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Somehow my DHO914S don't get any update tonight... I have a Windows machine as the gateway between the scope and Internet, and I quickly Wiresharked it. Apparently the HTTP GET URL for update is
support.rigol.com/api/Support/ProductUpgradeFile?sn=DHO9S2511111&hardware=1.0&behaviour=soft&software=00.01.01 (the SN should be replaced with the real value)
Somehow the returned XML file I requested have no information about an update, but only an error message: 未查询到序列号的生产信息 (Serial number's production information is not found). Tried the same with a serial number in someone's earlier post in this thread, but still the same error. Weird.
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This request is transmitted in clear text instead of HTTPS, which can lead to a significant security problem in case you are on a less trusted network if the following firmware package is also transmitted in clear text. As there is no signature check for the GEL files (good for hackers, please keep it Rigol), an adversary may do a DNS hijack and gain arbitrary code execution access to your scope.
Also, as you should have realized, exposing the scope which have the adb port open, to the public internet without a NAT is also extremely dangerous.
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Also, as you should have realized, exposing the scope which have the adb port open, to the public internet without a NAT is also extremely dangerous.
Couldn't agree more. That is why I have my bench devices connected to a router that is permanently kept off the Internet.
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This request is transmitted in clear text instead of HTTPS, which can lead to a significant security problem in case you are on a less trusted network if the following firmware package is also transmitted in clear text. As there is no signature check for the GEL files (good for hackers, please keep it Rigol), an adversary may do a DNS hijack and gain arbitrary code execution access to your scope.
Also, as you should have realized, exposing the scope which have the adb port open, to the public internet without a NAT is also extremely dangerous.
Makes you wonder about all these accessible 55555's
https://www.shodan.io/search?query=55555 (https://www.shodan.io/search?query=55555)
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The Utility icon on my DHO804 had an indicator on it this morning. (The scope is hooked up to wifi.) When I went into the Utility menu, it indicated that a firmware update was available. I clicked on an update button, and it installed version 01.01.02. It rebooted, and I validated that the new version was installed. The build date, per Utility->About, is 2023/11/09 17:35:40.
On the one hand I am pleased that the network update actually works (and that the "Utility/Update" menu entry is not just a misdirection for all who actually want to update via USB).
On the other hand, it makes me a bit nervous that oscilloscopes now also "phone home" to the manufacturer. That opens up new possibilities to detect or disable hacked licenses, if Rigol so desires. I think I will configure my firewall appropriately before connecting my new DHO1xx4 to the home network, and am happy to take the USB detour for firmware updates...
Phone home? A device made in and coded in china, gonna phone home?
It can try, but it won't get far on my net.
All the stuff not allowed to get past the local subnet is in 10 space with no gateway and no DNS, running on either it's own wifi AP or cat5 to small switch.
Other "IoT" stuff that I allow to web (tv, AVR, cameras), connects wifi to a dmz zone on it's own 192.168/24 space.
And my normal stuff (small # of items) connect to LAN side of a firewall device in it's own 192.168/24 space.
No traffic can cross between the zones.
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Tried the same with a serial number in someone's earlier post in this thread, but still the same error. Weird.
For another SN it works fine.
Content of the received XML file:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<meta>
<firmware>
<series>DHO800</series>
<version>00.01.02.00.00</version>
<url>http://spiderapi.rigol.com/api/Support/ProductUpgradePackage?sn=DHO8A25xxxxxxx</url>
<comment_cn>DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL</comment_cn>
<comment_en>DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL</comment_en>
<filesize>93330</filesize>
</firmware>
</meta>
I don't know what to do with the line:
<comment_en>DHO800_DHO900_Update.GEL</comment_en>
to read the comment. Maybe it's just information about the name of the downloaded file, not the release notes? :-//
The file received via OTA differs from the one previously available in the Sparrow.apk file only.
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Today I received my DHO814 oscilloscope, ordered on November 30th. Firmware version 00.01.01. Changing the vendor.bin file on DHO924 using the utility https://github.com/zelea2/rigol_vendor_bin (https://github.com/zelea2/rigol_vendor_bin) resulted in an offset on the channels that is not removed by calibration. The oscilloscope is connected to the network, but does not find any firmware updates :)
Somehow the returned XML file I requested have no information about an update, but only an error message: 未查询到序列号的生产信息 (Serial number's production information is not found). Tried the same with a serial number in someone's earlier post in this thread, but still the same error. Weird.
I tried your example query and got the same result. And I also discovered a strange thing. I tried to check my oscilloscope for support status on the Rigol website - https://www.rigol.eu/services/warranty-period.html (https://www.rigol.eu/services/warranty-period.html) . And this is the response I received on the verification page:
Your serial number：DHO8A25xxxxxxx
Model：DHO814
Start time：2024/3/28
End time：2027/3/28
That is, it turns out that my oscilloscope will only be under warranty in three months. In the meantime, it seems like it hasn’t been sold.
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I have a similar situation. I bought from the Chinese.
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I tried manually calling the URL using my DHO1074 serial with a specified firmware version 2.11 (I'm running 2.12) to see if it would offer me the upgrade.
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<meta>
<firmware>
<result>The latest software version was not found</result>
</firmware>
</meta>
It didn't fuss about the DHO1000 series query or even throw an error like others have seen, but it didn't find the newer 2.12 firmware either. I may run a Wireshark capture on it to see if it's even looking for updates at all yet, or are they planning that for a future FW release.
And I also discovered a strange thing. I tried to check my oscilloscope for support status on the Rigol website - https://www.rigol.eu/services/warranty-period.html (https://www.rigol.eu/services/warranty-period.html) . And this is the response I received on the verification page:
Interesting. The Rigol NA page doesn't have a warranty lookup that I can find, and the EU page doesn't work with NA serial numbers apparently (at least not with my DHO1074 serial). It returns an "invalid serial number" error.
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The file received via OTA differs from the one previously available in the Sparrow.apk file only.
Could you post the file received via OTA?
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Interesting. The Rigol NA page doesn't have a warranty lookup that I can find, and the EU page doesn't work with NA serial numbers apparently (at least not with my DHO1074 serial). It returns an "invalid serial number" error.
Yes, this is not entirely clear. I tried to check the serial numbers that I found in videos on YouTube, and some show “Invalid number” on both the European version of the site and the Chinese one.
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Interesting. The Rigol NA page doesn't have a warranty lookup that I can find, and the EU page doesn't work with NA serial numbers apparently (at least not with my DHO1074 serial). It returns an "invalid serial number" error.
Yes, this is not entirely clear. I tried to check the serial numbers that I found in videos on YouTube, and some show “Invalid number” on both the European version of the site and the Chinese one.
Most likley if the owner does not register the device, then perhaps the serial never gets into their system?
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Most likley if the owner does not register the device, then perhaps the serial never gets into their system?
Yes, I also had this assumption. I tried to find how to register my device, but I couldn’t find it on either the European or Chinese versions of the site.
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Most likley if the owner does not register the device, then perhaps the serial never gets into their system?
Yes, I also had this assumption. I tried to find how to register my device, but I couldn’t find it on either the European or Chinese versions of the site.
Well, you can play tricks with them and see what happens.
Notice DHO1000 Series is in the list? Use F12 in Firefox and just edit the options. ;D
Or select "OTHER".
https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0002:d-0001/1/index.htm
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Most likley if the owner does not register the device, then perhaps the serial never gets into their system?
Yes, I also had this assumption. I tried to find how to register my device, but I couldn’t find it on either the European or Chinese versions of the site.
Well, you can play tricks with them and see what happens.
Notice DHO1000 Series is in the list? Use F12 in Firefox and just edit the options. ;D
Or select "OTHER".
https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0002:d-0001/1/index.htm
I think I've registered.
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Most likley if the owner does not register the device, then perhaps the serial never gets into their system?
Yes, I also had this assumption. I tried to find how to register my device, but I couldn’t find it on either the European or Chinese versions of the site.
Well, you can play tricks with them and see what happens.
Notice DHO1000 Series is in the list? Use F12 in Firefox and just edit the options. ;D
Or select "OTHER".
https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0002:d-0001/1/index.htm
Well, yes, I saw this registration form for NA, but I doubted it - I’m on a different continent altogether :) And the European and Chinese sites do not offer device registration.
I’ll try to register it too, I think it won’t be any worse :)
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Most likley if the owner does not register the device, then perhaps the serial never gets into their system?
Yes, I also had this assumption. I tried to find how to register my device, but I couldn’t find it on either the European or Chinese versions of the site.
Well, you can play tricks with them and see what happens.
Notice DHO1000 Series is in the list? Use F12 in Firefox and just edit the options. ;D
Or select "OTHER".
https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0002:d-0001/1/index.htm
Well, yes, I saw this registration form for NA, but I doubted it - I’m on a different continent altogether :) And the European and Chinese sites do not offer device registration.
I’ll try to register it too, I think it won’t be any worse :)
Is it just a NA reg page though?
The return page after reg shows info on contacting Rigol worldwide.
My guess is it takes in whatever data you wish to put in there. I wonder if it's just going to someones email box, because if you select "OTHER" then someone needs to read what you write in the box, unless AI is doing it.
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Just give Rigol a few weeks... Keeping the firmware download sections on their various international sites updated and consistent has never been their strongest suit.
Indeed(Rigol.eu)...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1960122;image)
And yes, both are having the same content.
Simply chaotic. :palm:
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I have a similar situation. I bought from the Chinese.
Aliexpress? Any issues with the customs?
(I'd rather buy it locally, but nobody seems to have them in stock yet.)
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Is it just a NA reg page though?
The return page after reg shows info on contacting Rigol worldwide.
My guess is it takes in whatever data you wish to put in there. I wonder if it's just going to someones email box, because if you select "OTHER" then someone needs to read what you write in the box, unless AI is doing it.
It seems to me that this is simply a private initiative of a regional distributor.
Here's what's also interesting - I tried this link from the .xml from bulba99 (https://spiderapi.rigol.com/api/Support/ProductUpgradePackage?sn=DHO8A25xxxxxxx) and found that different serial numbers give a different answer. I was not given an update file for any of the real serial numbers I tried, but for some serial numbers the error Prod_SeriesId Exception is thrown, and for some - Prodid Exception. I haven't come to any definitive conclusions, but it appears that in one case there is an invalid serial error, and in the other some other error. This is just an observation.
One gets the impression that serials are formed not just by sequential increments, but in a more complex manner. Perhaps they can be tied to the intended market region, or something else.
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Just give Rigol a few weeks... Keeping the firmware download sections on their various international sites updated and consistent has never been their strongest suit.
Indeed(Rigol.eu)...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=1960122;image)
And yes, both are having the same content.
Simply chaotic. :palm:
Moreover, these two links are different links, they even lead to different hosts, and the second one is incorrect :)
December - https://download.rigol.com/en/firmware/DHO800_DHO900(Software)UpdateV00.01.01.zip (https://download.rigol.com/en/firmware/DHO800_DHO900(Software)UpdateV00.01.01.zip)
August - https://www.rigol.euhttps//supportcn.rigol.com/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/ftp/Firmware/DHO800_DHO900(Software)UpdateV00.01.01.zip (https://www.rigol.euhttps//supportcn.rigol.com/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/ftp/Firmware/DHO800_DHO900(Software)UpdateV00.01.01.zip)
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One gets the impression that serials are formed not just by sequential increments, but in a more complex manner. Perhaps they can be tied to the intended market region, or something else.
Rigol might maintain a full list of serial numbers.
There was some speculation earlier how the serial numbers are linked to the product key -- which resides inside the scope, and is used to decrypt/check license codes for the upgrade options. When you purchase an option from Rigol, you enter your serial number in their online interface. But to return a valid option code they need to know the product key.
To my knowledge, it is not clear yet whether there is an algorithmic way to generate the key from the serial number -- or whether Rigol actually maintains a full cross-reference list of serial numbers and product keys for all produced DHO instruments.
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The script for generating licenses for the DHOs is currently working.
This is quite different from the hacks for the MSO5000, for example.
When I received the complete option package for my MSO5074 from Rigol as a thank you, I had to generate it online - the generated keys are identical in length to what we generate today with the script for the DHO series.
While MSO owners still have to hack their scope every time they update their firmware, I had peace of mind because I had real keys.
Just like now with the DHO script.
I still don't know why the MSO hack was not developed further.
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One gets the impression that serials are formed not just by sequential increments, but in a more complex manner. Perhaps they can be tied to the intended market region, or something else.
Rigol might maintain a full list of serial numbers.
There was some speculation earlier how the serial numbers are linked to the product key -- which resides inside the scope, and is used to decrypt/check license codes for the upgrade options. When you purchase an option from Rigol, you enter your serial number in their online interface. But to return a valid option code they need to know the product key.
To my knowledge, it is not clear yet whether there is an algorithmic way to generate the key from the serial number -- or whether Rigol actually maintains a full cross-reference list of serial numbers and product keys for all produced DHO instruments.
I'm sure Rigol maintains a complete list of all serial numbers, and I'm pretty sure this list is linked to a list of product keys. It’s like car manufacturers who remotely produce ignition keys based on the car’s VIN code.
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I know that at least Siglent has such a database.
I had received complete calibration documentation for my desktop multimeter after giving the serial number.
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I know that at least Siglent has such a database.
I had received complete calibration documentation for my desktop multimeter after giving the serial number.
They sure do !
A local unit not sold by us was confirmed as being China mainland supplied within hours.
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There was some speculation earlier how the serial numbers are linked to the product key
It definitely is.
To my knowledge, it is not clear yet whether there is an algorithmic way to generate the key from the serial number -- or whether Rigol actually maintains a full cross-reference list of serial numbers and product keys for all produced DHO instruments.
There is, Riglol does it, but it needs a private key.
I'm not sure where Riglol got the private keys for all the 'scopes from, I've long suspected Riglol is an inside job by a Rigol employee - there's just too many secret Rigol keys in it.
The algorithm is very complicated, involving elliptic curve crypto.
(Look at the key file, it starts with "brainpool", which is a standard curve used in ECC)
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But after that, the registered device did not appear in the personal account))
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By the way, I connected this miniature combo keyboard with a touchpad and it works great with the device :) Very convenient because of its compactness and wirelessness. Such keyboards come with Bluetooth or with their own proprietary receiver. I have the option with a proprietary receiver.
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How to get the OTA GEL file: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5238975/#msg5238975 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5238975/#msg5238975)
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How to get the OTA GEL file: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5238975/#msg5238975 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5238975/#msg5238975)
In paragraph 2, it says that there will be an address inside the XML. I don't have it. Here's what's inside the second, downloaded xml.
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How to get the OTA GEL file: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5238975/#msg5238975 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5238975/#msg5238975)
In paragraph 2, it says that there will be an address inside the XML. I don't have it. Here's what's inside the second, downloaded xml.
I had the same problem with my serial number. This is a message about an unknown serial number - "No production information of serial number found". I had to change a couple of numbers in my serial number for it to work - DHO8A25x9x2xxx changed to DHO8A25x8x1xxx and then the link worked and I received an xml with the link.
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I just downloaded yours from Google Drive and installed it. Initially there was an offset, after calibration it became normal. But I didn't understand why I needed this firmware. What she gives me. Moreover, it is not officially available on the sites. And I installed firmware 01.01 again.
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While MSO owners still have to hack their scope every time they update their firmware, I had peace of mind because I had real keys.
Most MSO owners... There are some who don't need to do that.
I still don't know why the MSO hack was not developed further.
The MSO keygen was fully developed since the beginning of times. It just isn't public.
There is, Riglol does it, but it needs a private key.
I'm not sure where Riglol got the private keys for all the 'scopes from, I've long suspected Riglol is an inside job by a Rigol employee - there's just too many secret Rigol keys in it.
The algorithm is very complicated, involving elliptic curve crypto.
(Look at the key file, it starts with "brainpool", which is a standard curve used in ECC)
Here are the usual "stretched" conclusions...
There is no reason to believe that the old ECC private keys are derived from the S/N. That's why Rigol includes the keys in device's NANDs and there is no function in the app code to generate them. Today's ECC algorithm is as much complicated as it was in riglol days, only the keys are longer.
As I've hinted a year ago, the DHO uses a totally messed up license system based on the original MSO system. Once again the ECC keys are unique to each device but they are not used correctly, as in the MSOs. While they may be generated based on the S/N (although there is not much space for creativity here) there is no indication that such happens.
My conclusion is that Rigol maintains a database with all this info as the majority of the others A/B brands do.
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But I didn't understand why I needed this firmware. What she gives me.
It fixes the annoying offsets when 250 megahertz bandwidth is enabled... That's all I wanted for Christmas! Now I have a four channel 250 megahertz scope for 400 euros.
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Now I have a four channel 250 megahertz scope for 400 euros.
Well, you have four channels or you can look at a couple of 250 MHz signals, but not both at the same time. ???
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But I didn't understand why I needed this firmware. What she gives me.
It fixes the annoying offsets when 250 megahertz bandwidth is enabled... That's all I wanted for Christmas! Now I have a four channel 250 megahertz scope for 400 euros.
But I also have no offset on firmware 01. According to this instruction, the offset does not occur. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5148330/#msg5148330 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5148330/#msg5148330) And in firmware 02, there is not one item in this window, I do not know if this is correct.
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But I didn't understand why I needed this firmware. What she gives me.
It fixes the annoying offsets when 250 megahertz bandwidth is enabled... That's all I wanted for Christmas! Now I have a four channel 250 megahertz scope for 400 euros.
Just don't turn on all the channels...
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Concerns the Ultra Acquisition Mode:
Has anyone found a signal case where this mode is really useful for what?
It is only very sparsely described in all DHO manuals and there doesn't seem to be any kind of "white paper".
Well, you can create great graphics with it, but otherwise?
I had fed in various signals with random glitch pulses, but I was able to capture these glitches better in normal mode with the appropriate trigger than in Ultra mode, which with the (measured) high waveform update rate actually seems to be made for this.
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As I've said before, I don't think it's there for capturing single glitches.
I think it's there so you can visualize a glitch in context with what went just before/after it.
You can also see evolving waveforms in 3D.
Edit: And it has a much faster waveform update rate than normal record mode...
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After reading the topics, I got the impression that most users encountered a shift when converting oscilloscopes from 8xx to 9xx on version 00.01.01. I've definitely encountered this. And after updating to version 00.01.02 there is no offset after transferring from 814 to 914 :)
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As I've said before, I don't think it's there for capturing single glitches.
I think it's there so you can visualize a glitch in context with what went just before/after it.
You can also see evolving waveforms in 3D.
Edit: And it has a much faster waveform update rate than normal record mode...
But that's exactly the point, Fungus.
What else do you want with a very fast update rate if not to be able to capture very short events?
These various display options are simply a graphical gimmick with no real added value.
Rigol must have had something in mind when they implemented this.
I'm tempted to write to them, even if the prospect of a reply seems rather slim at the moment, because I've still been waiting for an answer to a question for weeks.
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Rigol must have had something in mind when they implemented this.
Maybe it simply didn't work out as well as they thought it would in the design phase... :-//
(and the managers had already announced it so it couldn't be removed)
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As I've said before, I don't think it's there for capturing single glitches.
I think it's there so you can visualize a glitch in context with what went just before/after it.
You can also see evolving waveforms in 3D.
Edit: And it has a much faster waveform update rate than normal record mode...
But that's exactly the point, Fungus.
What else do you want with a very fast update rate if not to be able to capture very short events?
These various display options are simply a graphical gimmick with no real added value.
Rigol must have had something in mind when they implemented this.
I'm tempted to write to them, even if the prospect of a reply seems rather slim at the moment, because I've still been waiting for an answer to a question for weeks.
Does this video not give you an idea of the benefits of ultravision?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBad0a1B2U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBad0a1B2U)
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I just downloaded yours from Google Drive and installed it. Initially there was an offset, after calibration it became normal. But I didn't understand why I needed this firmware. What she gives me. Moreover, it is not officially available on the sites. And I installed firmware 01.01 again.
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As I've said before, I don't think it's there for capturing single glitches.
I think it's there so you can visualize a glitch in context with what went just before/after it.
You can also see evolving waveforms in 3D.
Edit: And it has a much faster waveform update rate than normal record mode...
But that's exactly the point, Fungus.
What else do you want with a very fast update rate if not to be able to capture very short events?
These various display options are simply a graphical gimmick with no real added value.
Rigol must have had something in mind when they implemented this.
I'm tempted to write to them, even if the prospect of a reply seems rather slim at the moment, because I've still been waiting for an answer to a question for weeks.
Does this video not give you an idea of the benefits of ultravision?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBad0a1B2U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBad0a1B2U)
In that video there is cca 2 minutes of Ultra vision. 3 modes are shown and I personally don't understand what do you could use it for that is not already covered with persistence, analog intensity, color grading and segmented/history modes.
Not to mention that he demonstrated thing on the screen that is almost 2m diagonally. What do you see on a 7"?
They do look cool, but what is it used for? An example of work done with it? I'm not saying that there might not be some use (except for being cool for demonstrations and demos on exhibitions), but I don't see it and so far even Rigol failed to demonstrate actual use scenarios..
Not to mention that they decided to call PC software Ultra Acquire too.... Not confusing at all.. So trying to find some documentation on feature is really easy... not.
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I just downloaded yours from Google Drive and installed it. Initially there was an offset, after calibration it became normal. But I didn't understand why I needed this firmware. What she gives me. Moreover, it is not officially available on the sites. And I installed firmware 01.01 again.
I experimented with calibrations on different firmware. (On the DHO802). I was guided by the DVM readings. The best results were obtained on firmware 01.02. with only the basic calibration options enabled. The rest of the ticks are removed (see screenshot).
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I just downloaded yours from Google Drive and installed it. Initially there was an offset, after calibration it became normal. But I didn't understand why I needed this firmware. What she gives me. Moreover, it is not officially available on the sites. And I installed firmware 01.01 again.
I experimented with calibrations on different firmware. (On the DHO802). I was guided by the DVM readings. The best results were obtained on firmware 01.02. with only the basic calibration options enabled. The rest of the ticks are removed (see screenshot).
Do both channels have the same value?
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Concerns the Ultra Acquisition Mode:
Has anyone found a signal case where this mode is really useful for what?
It is only very sparsely described in all DHO manuals and there doesn't seem to be any kind of "white paper".
Well, you can create great graphics with it, but otherwise?
I had fed in various signals with random glitch pulses, but I was able to capture these glitches better in normal mode with the appropriate trigger than in Ultra mode, which with the (measured) high waveform update rate actually seems to be made for this.
Hello,
Other manufacturers have similar functions. With PicoScope it is "Rapid Trigger", with Rohde & Schwarz it is "Fast segmentation"
Best regards
egonotto
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I just downloaded yours from Google Drive and installed it. Initially there was an offset, after calibration it became normal. But I didn't understand why I needed this firmware. What she gives me. Moreover, it is not officially available on the sites. And I installed firmware 01.01 again.
I experimented with calibrations on different firmware. (On the DHO802). I was guided by the DVM readings. The best results were obtained on firmware 01.02. with only the basic calibration options enabled. The rest of the ticks are removed (see screenshot).
Do both channels have the same value?
Yes. The same. The difference is quite small. When other SelfCal options are enabled, the accuracy deteriorates. As on other firmware versions. Well, if you look at the DVM readings.
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Concerns the Ultra Acquisition Mode:
Has anyone found a signal case where this mode is really useful for what?
It is only very sparsely described in all DHO manuals and there doesn't seem to be any kind of "white paper".
Well, you can create great graphics with it, but otherwise?
I had fed in various signals with random glitch pulses, but I was able to capture these glitches better in normal mode with the appropriate trigger than in Ultra mode, which with the (measured) high waveform update rate actually seems to be made for this.
Hello,
Other manufacturers have similar functions. With PicoScope it is "Rapid Trigger", with Rohde & Schwarz it is "Fast segmentation"
Best regards
egonotto
Egonotto,
respectfully it is not the same. There is much confusion about this UltrAcq.
Those two Pico and R&S modes are same as Siglent and Kesight segmented mode. Many scopes nowadays have it.
DHOXXXX also has it and call it Record mode. And it seems Record mode works similar to other scopes segmented mode. You can analyse data (search, view, decode... from it etc.) acquired in Record mode. I haven't used it but from what I can see it seems to work in adequate manner.
But this UltraAcq mode is separate from that and has these few visual representations and nothing else. You cannot measure, or do anything with data. It is similar to DPO mode in old Tektronix scopes (like old TDS754), where when you enable it all other functions are disabled. It triggers faster but you can only look at the waveform on the screen.
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DHOXXXX also has it and call it Record mode. And it seems Record mode works similar to other scopes segmented mode. You can analyse data (search, view, decode... from it etc.) acquired in Record mode. I haven't used it but from what I can see it seems to work in adequate manner.
But this UltraAcq mode is separate from that and has these few visual representations and nothing else. You cannot measure, or do anything with data. It is similar to DPO mode in old Tektronix scopes (like old TDS754), where when you enable it all other functions are disabled. It triggers faster but you can only look at the waveform on the screen.
Do we know whether "UltraAcquire" actually triggers faster than regular "Record" mode in the DHO series? Not sure why it would be able to do that, from a technical perspective. But if that were indeed the case, the only reason for UltraAcquire's existence might be to have a faster waveform update rate in the spec sheet?
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DHOXXXX also has it and call it Record mode. And it seems Record mode works similar to other scopes segmented mode. You can analyse data (search, view, decode... from it etc.) acquired in Record mode. I haven't used it but from what I can see it seems to work in adequate manner.
But this UltraAcq mode is separate from that and has these few visual representations and nothing else. You cannot measure, or do anything with data. It is similar to DPO mode in old Tektronix scopes (like old TDS754), where when you enable it all other functions are disabled. It triggers faster but you can only look at the waveform on the screen.
Do we know whether "UltraAcquire" actually triggers faster than regular "Record" mode in the DHO series? Not sure why it would be able to do that, from a technical perspective. But if that were indeed the case, the only reason for UltraAcquire's existence might be to have a faster waveform update rate in the spec sheet?
It does. Martin did some tests. Fact is Rigol does not usually lie with the facts. What they do is they twist what they mean and what is usability of it.
I personally think "bragging rights" to claim fast wfm/s is the only practical use of this mode at this moment.
In attachment a hard to find w.p. from Rigol that explains virtues of UltraAcq. It was written for big brothers 1000/4000.
It has 5 display modes:
1. Waterfall - Which is nothing like we call waterfall display on SA for instance. I fail to see how easy is to see some detail when everything is overlapping on same screen with same color.
2. Adjacent - Same as No.1 but horizontal shift instead of vertical. Even worse to grasp what is going on here.
3. Perspective - Ok, this looks similar to 3D surface plot, but badly looking. Gaps are too wide and no removal of hidden lines. No rotation?
4. Overlay - OK that one I get. And every scope with segments has this one. Useful.
5. Mosaic - I understand what is it. I have no use for it for practical work. Maybe some documentation? But has no connection to needing super fast WFMS/s for this. This could have been added to normal segmented mode as display mode. All of these could have.
What is not there: any type of scales, time stamps, info. There are no measurements, cursors, search, math, nothing.
Even if you see some anomaly you won't know when it happened. OK, if it repeats on screen you could see how it repeats in relative terms, but without any data, you don't know frequency, timing. Nothing. If there is a voltage drop in there, you cannot measure it...
It is literally empty screen with bunch of wiggles on it.
In Overlay mode it is similar to DPO mode in old Tektronix scopes (for instance old TDS754). Minus intensity/color grading.
I guess in Overlay mode it could be used to catch some glitches faster than in normal mode.
It will give you information that something was there if you put it in Overlay mode and look for an anomaly, visually.
And then with that knowledge you design series of triggers to catch those in a way that will give you some actual information about it.
Which is something you can do on a many scopes out there in persistence mode... But those can do all the other things FastAcq cannot. And those are very useful.
Getting wfm/s in this way is very limited in it's usefulness.
For instance, champion of wfm/s, Keysight Megazoom scopes, can reach 1M wfm/s in normal mode at certain time bases. And do all the normal functions at the same time. So you do measurements and gather statistics at very fast rate.
With this FastAcq you cannot do ANY of that.
In normal mode you are actually slower than some competition that can do "only" 120k wfm/s. Because in normal mode DHO800 can do only 30k wfm/s.
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I still don't quite get it. How does the data acquisition phase of Ultraview mode differ from data acquisition in Record mode? (And related -- how does it provide a faster acquisition rate?)
And on the other hand: Why do the data need to be presented differently? Apparently the playback and search, as available in Record mode, can't be used on UltraAcquire data -- but why?
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I still don't quite get it. How does the data acquisition phase of Ultraview mode differ from data acquisition in Record mode? (And related -- how does it provide a faster acquisition rate?)
And on the other hand: Why do the data need to be presented differently? Apparently the playback and search, as available in Record mode, can't be used on UltraAcquire data -- but why?
I presume you cannot do anything with it because it gets hard decimated for the screen and hard processed totally in display processor block.
Looking at it, it might be repurposed digital phosphorus block, made to not calculate plot density but to simply render individual traces directly on canvas. App proc might not have access to actual sampled data at all...
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From the manual:
TIP
• The UltraAcquire mode is not available when any of the following functions is enabled:
cursors, decoding, Search, Zoom, Pass/Fail test, waveform recording, power analysis,
reference waveform, roll mode, slow sweep mode, and XY mode. To switch to the
UltraAcquire mode, please ensure that all of those functions are disabled.
• In UltraAcquire mode, the functions mentioned above (except for roll mode and slow
sweep mode) are disabled. When roll mode or slow sweep mode is enabled, the
acquisition mode is automatically switched to "Normal"
They were actually describing the fact that it is useless.
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So the only purpose of UltraAcquire mode really seems to be specsmanship. It allows Rigol to put those 1M waveforms/s into the datasheet, and that's about all it does. ::)
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In his review you realize that Dave can't really do anything with it either, but at least it's "cool". ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8&t=2037s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8jrpCoZyx8&t=2037s)
(starting at 40min50sec)
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Is it only 30,000? why can my 814 be 1000000. the second oscilloscope is connected to the external synchro nization output of rigol,.... :-// :=\
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Hm ? You mean Wfms/s ?
Here is what I´ve measured on my DHO"814":
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5171976/#msg5171976 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5171976/#msg5171976)
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yes I mean wfm/s. You are based there on the readings of the internal counter, but I looked at the cursor measurements...
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I had connected a second scope to the trigger output, as is usually done.
1,000,000 Wfms/s can only be achieved in Ultra Acquire mode, otherwise not.
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but I measured it in normal mode...
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I suggest you repeat your measurements with cursors...
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I think there are two possibilities.
Either I have measured something wrong or you have.
Take another look at your setup.
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I suggest you repeat your measurements with cursors...
We spoke about this many times.
wfms/s second is exactly that. How many actual triggers can be in a second.
You are measuring fastest time between two triggers. Not the same.
If you make timebase on that second scope wider so you can see more data, you will see that Rigol is not triggering like that all the time. Data comes in bursts. Then nothing for some time. Then again a burst. So to measure how many times it triggered in a second you need a counter, that will count how many pulses were in a second. Not what was fastest interval between two pulses.
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Thank you! but I know this very well, are you saying that the measurements taken above by Tektronix are reliable? Does Tektronix have the necessary counter to count the number of synchronization pulses in one second? or does he calculate some average value when indicating the signal frequency?.... please enlighten me.
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Thank you! but I know this very well, are you saying that the measurements taken above by Tektronix are reliable? Does Tektronix have the necessary counter to count the number of synchronization pulses in one second? or does he calculate some average value when indicating the signal frequency?.... please enlighten me.
Could you please point to exact post you are talking about?
Any real counter that does physical counting in a 1 sec gate will do good job.
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I don’t know if anyone has posted the insides of the new LiteOn PA-1650-58 power supply, but I don’t think I’ve seen it :)
The case is glued together very carefully; it is impossible to disassemble it without serious damage. In my opinion, the quality of the power supply is very good, this is not a cheap Chinese power supply with the maximum reduction in price. As for the rest, I don’t dare to comment, since I’m not well versed in switching power supplies.
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More photos of the power supply.
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I don’t know if anyone has posted the insides of the new LiteOn PA-1650-58 power supply, but I don’t think I’ve seen it :)
The case is glued together very carefully; it is impossible to disassemble it without serious damage. In my opinion, the quality of the power supply is very good, this is not a cheap Chinese power supply with the maximum reduction in price. As for the rest, I don’t dare to comment, since I’m not well versed in switching power supplies.
thanks for doing the job for us... https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5125530/#msg5125530 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5125530/#msg5125530)
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thanks for doing the job for us... https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5125530/#msg5125530 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5125530/#msg5125530)
Oops, apparently I was inattentive when I re-read the topic :)
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thanks for doing the job for us... https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5125530/#msg5125530 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5125530/#msg5125530)
Oops, apparently I was inattentive when I re-read the topic :)
dont worry, you dont have to, as long as you are capable man to make your own content ;) it will need more brave people to do it cheers.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5134716/#msg5134716 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5134716/#msg5134716)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5125968/#msg5125968 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5125968/#msg5125968)
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dont worry, you dont have to, as long as you are capable man to make your own content ;) it will need more brave people to do it cheers.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5134716/#msg5134716 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5134716/#msg5134716)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5125968/#msg5125968 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5125968/#msg5125968)
Ah... Well, usually if I start to disassemble out of curiosity, I don’t stop until I see everything :) Even if this is beyond my competence (like switching power supplies), I still have to see how everything is assembled, on what element base and etc. :)
By the way, the screen easily comes off the compound. But the compound itself is interesting, I have never encountered anything like it before - much harder than silicone, almost like plastic, but still a little elastic.
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This material used in all laptop psus packs.I think is thermal conductive the adapter gets really hot and heat transfer out from the plastic case. Stuffing the psu like this to avoid vibrations (and thermal transfer)and do the parts service nightmare.
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This material used in all laptop psus packs.I think is thermal conductive the adapter gets really hot and heat transfer out from the plastic case. Stuffing the psu like this to avoid vibrations (and thermal transfer)and do the parts service nightmare.
I wonder if that hot glue is really thermally conductive. I have my doubts. But I've replaced glue and things like that with RTV in the past. Not even the expensive RTV you get for electronics (with better thermal properties). I just straight up buy the RTV used for car gasket making (ie. JBWeld ultimate RTV) and it has worked exceptionally well.
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This material used in all laptop psus packs.I think is thermal conductive the adapter gets really hot and heat transfer out from the plastic case. Stuffing the psu like this to avoid vibrations (and thermal transfer)and do the parts service nightmare.
I also have a suspicion that this compound is thermally conductive. It feels cold in your hands for quite a long time, not like plastic, which quickly becomes warm. And when leaned against a hot soldering iron, it heats up very quickly throughout its entire volume. I think that it serves here to remove heat from the elements to a metal shield that has a large area.
I have already decided that I will refill the power supply board with the thermally conductive silicone compound I have :)
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I just straight up buy the RTV used for car gasket making (ie. JBWeld ultimate RTV) and it has worked exceptionally well.
How do you measure this "exceptionally good" performance, and how much long-term experience do you have with the stuff? To my knowledge, JB-Weld ultimate RTV is an example of Acetoxysilane-based silicone. It releases acetic acid while curing. I would certainly not use it on electronics.
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RTV maybe is good for hold things in place capacitors transformers etc. but not to cover the whole pcb my opinion.The white compound on pc packs is the material for that.I don't know the name of it to find on market.I have a tube with white thermal conductive glue to hold in top of ic's small aluminium coolers and it locks about the same when is dry.
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Sounds like some of you are talking about common white "silastic."
Dow 744 White seems to be one of the most common electronics silicone adhesives, though "silastic" is not part of it's name or description unlike other Dow silastic products (there are many formulations).
Pretty sure it's not very thermally conductive though. That requires specialized silicone formulations like SilicoTherm (https://cht-silicones.com/products/encapsulants/thermally-conductive-silicone-encapsulants) that include thermally conductive fillers such as aluminum oxides. Careful though you don't pick one of the electrically conductive silicone formulations, unless that's what you actually want!
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The main thing is that the silicone compound must be neutral. This is usually indicated on the packaging. This silicone does not release acetic acid during polymerization and does not harm tracks, contacts and components.
If silicone smells like vinegar, it means it is acidic and cannot be used in electronics.
The thermal conductivity of ordinary silicones is low, but there are special thermally conductive silicones, which, as written above, contain a thermally conductive filler - usually special ceramics.
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How do you measure this "exceptionally good" performance, and how much long-term experience do you have with the stuff?
Long term, not so much, I'd say I've been using it for 2-3 years on and off.
Exceptionally good performance is subjective ofc but the devices typically had better thermal performance than they did before (ie. temperature sensor before and after).
The reason I started using it is because in the 3d printer space we use this stuff to adhere AC powered 500->1000 watt heaters to Aluminium beds and it performs better in than the 3m adhesives commonly used by those AC heaters in that respect.
You aren't going to get charts from me, I haven't prepared a thesis on this, it is my opinion.
To my knowledge, JB-Weld ultimate RTV is an example of Acetoxysilane-based silicone. It releases acetic acid while curing. I would certainly not use it on electronics.
True it does release acetic acid, at least from the smell. I've not had any issues, but to your point, probably best not to use it on expensive equipment or during manufacture. But I'm a lot less absolute about my insistence on perfection. Especially where price is concerned. The alternatives cost 10 times as much. If you can afford to pay 10 times as much go for it (although at that point I question why you don't just buy another item).
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True it does release acetic acid, at least from the smell. I've not had any issues, but to your point, probably best not to use it on expensive equipment or during manufacture. But I'm a lot less absolute about my insistence on perfection. Especially where price is concerned. The alternatives cost 10 times as much. If you can afford to pay 10 times as much go for it (although at that point I question why you don't just buy another item).
Well, if the acid it destroys my devices over time, that will cost me much more than the cost of neutral silicone -- even when you just look at hardware cost, and worse when you also attach a price to the time and hassle of replacing or fixing it later.
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Well, if the acid it destroys my devices over time, that will cost me much more than the cost of neutral silicone -- even when you just look at hardware cost, and worse when you also attach a price to the time and hassle of replacing or fixing it later.
Pretty sure the acetic acid evaporates.
But we have no data, this is going to turn into a whose d#ck is bigger kind of thing.
I hear what you are saying and agree there is a risk.
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Pretty sure the acetic acid evaporates.
From the surface of the sealant - of course, and quite quickly. But from the surface of the board and components under the sealant layer - very, very slowly. In fact, it ends up locked there in a sealed volume.
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The fact that acetic acid based formulations can and will corrode or degrade electronic components is well documented. That's why non-acidic formulations exist and are specified for electronics work.
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The fact that acetic acid based formulations can and will corrode or degrade electronic components is well documented.
Do you have a link I could look at?
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WTF...
When i adjust minimum vertical division，it has a large ripple at 55KHz and large noice....
I guess it may come from power supply.
My 804 (recent build) that came with the 01.02 FW does show noise on the DC of the PSU, but I don't see it leaking into the front-end when the channels are on with floating inputs.
I took a look at the DC being supplied to the 804 --> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5245911/#msg5245911 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5245911/#msg5245911)
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That post from Azusa refers to the early DHO800 units, which were shipped with a very cheap, fixed 12V switching supply. This caused real problems, and Rigol reacted by upgrading to better power supplies (Liteon or Lenovo brands have been reported).
I don't think you need to be worried about your Liteon supply. As you said, it does not affect measurements, so it's not really critical what the incoming DC voltage looks like.
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The fact that acetic acid based formulations can and will corrode or degrade electronic components is well documented.
Do you have a link I could look at?
Not trying to be a smartass, but Google is your friend here. As I said, it's well documented. But to show what a nice guy I am :) here's a couple of quick hits to get you started:
https://www.masterbond.com/techtips/why-use-silicone-adhesive (https://www.masterbond.com/techtips/why-use-silicone-adhesive)
Silicone adhesives boast excellent electrical properties and can be formulated to be insulative with a high dielectric strength, or conversely electrically conductive. Many one part silicone adhesives release a corrosive entity, such as acetic acid, but there are special formulations that are totally non-corrosive and can be used with electronics. These are often used as a conformal coating for electronic circuit boards. Silicone systems are also used for sealing cables and sensors in both appliances and electronics.
https://cht-silicones.com/faq/is-silicone-safe-for-electronics (https://cht-silicones.com/faq/is-silicone-safe-for-electronics)
Is silicone safe for electronics?
CHT manufacture silicones that are safe to use on electronics.
You should avoid silicone adhesive sealants which use Acetoxy crosslinkers. Neatral cure silicones are safe to use with electronics as any by-products of the cure system are non-corrosive.
https://qualitysealaustralia.com.au/acetoxy-vs-neutral-cure-silicone (https://qualitysealaustralia.com.au/acetoxy-vs-neutral-cure-silicone) (mainly builder related but references the danger to electronics)
Acetoxy silicone, as we previously discussed, is very corrosive because of its significant amount of acetic acid. This may cause discoloration when used on natural stone. When applied to bituminous materials, such as some types of roofing material, carpet tiles, paints, and waterproof coatings, it can cause the bitumen to “bleed.”
Acetoxy silicone must be kept away from delicate electronics while it cures because the resulting fumes may damage electronics. Brass and copper are among the metals that can be harmed by acetic acid.
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That post from Azusa refers to the early DHO800 units, which were shipped with a very cheap, fixed 12V switching supply. This caused real problems, and Rigol reacted by upgrading to better power supplies (Liteon or Lenovo brands have been reported).
I don't think you need to be worried about your Liteon supply. As you said, it does not affect measurements, so it's not really critical what the incoming DC voltage looks like.
Since I don't know I have to ask.
How did just swapping out the USB-C PSU mitigate the ripple/noise that was leaking into front end? I mean, my 804 came with the newer Liteon and I still see about the same noise pattern on the DC that was posted with the old PSU.
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Since I don't know I have to ask.
How did just swapping out the USB-C PSU mitigate the ripple/noise that was leaking into front end? I mean, my 804 came with the newer Liteon and I still see about the same noise pattern on the DC that was posted with the old PSU.
Is your oscilloscope noise similar to this? I also can’t figure out what this noise is and where it comes from. It appears only if you connect a probe; without a probe (with an open input or with a 50 Ohm load at the input) it does not exist.
The ground lead is short-circuited to the central pin, the probe is located approximately 30 cm from the oscilloscope. In the channel settings, the 20 MHz BW limit is disabled, the divider is set to 10x. I provided screenshots on different horizontal scans.
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How did just swapping out the USB-C PSU mitigate the ripple/noise that was leaking into front end? I mean, my 804 came with the newer Liteon and I still see about the same noise pattern on the DC that was posted with the old PSU.
You measured some noise directly on the PSU's output voltage. The only measurements with the old PSU which I am aware of are showing noise patterns picked up by the scope, with nothing (or even a termination) connected to the inputs.
The fact that the patterns look qualitatively the same is not surprising, since both are noise patterns from switching power supplies. The fact that there was significant crosstalk into the scope front end with the old PSU, and no noticeable crosstalk with the new PSU, suggests that the noise from the new PSU is simply at a much lower level.
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By the way, the screenshots above were taken while the oscilloscope was powered by a battery. This is noise generated by the oscilloscope itself, not by something external.
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By the way, the screenshots above were taken while the oscilloscope was powered by a battery. This is noise generated by the oscilloscope itself, not by something external.
Since you mentioned that the noise only occurs when you connect a probe, it must indeed come from an external source, right? If you clip a probe's ground lead to its tip, you make a nice little loop antenna which picks up signals from the environment.
If this noise bothers you, you can try switching all other nearby devices off. LED lights and switching power supplies are likely offenders. You can also try moving the probe end around and rotating it to see if things change. Or move the scope to another room (or a friend's place) to confirm whether the environment has an impact.
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Since you mentioned that the noise only occurs when you connect a probe, it must indeed come from an external source, right? If you clip a probe's ground lead to its tip, you make a nice little loop antenna which picks up signals from the environment.
If this noise bothers you, you can try switching all other nearby devices off. LED lights and switching power supplies are likely offenders. You can also try moving the probe end around and rotating it to see if things change. Or move the scope to another room (or a friend's place) to confirm whether the environment has an impact.
This is the first thing I checked, because I understood that since these interferences are not there without the probe, it means they are induced by something external to the probe. These screenshots were taken when the oscilloscope was standing in another corner of the room, where there are no EMI sources within a radius of 5 meters. But the noise did not change or decrease at all. The amplitude of the noise increases significantly when I bring the tip of the probe with the loop of the ground wire closer to the oscilloscope, especially to the lower part.
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I measured the noise of the "LITEON" power supply. An external resistive load was connected and a voltage of 15 volts was triggered. RIGOL itself was powered autonomously, from a power bank. Please note that this is the most extreme operating mode for this power supply, the oscilloscope will never consume that much... Typical power consumption is about 37 watts(15V 2.3A)
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I measured the noise of the "LITEON" power supply. An external resistive load was connected and a voltage of 15 volts was triggered. RIGOL itself was powered autonomously, from a power bank. Please note that this is the most extreme operating mode for this power supply, the oscilloscope will never consume that much... Typical power consumption is about 37 watts(15V 2.3A)
Can you zoom in on horizontal to the areas in this pic, set cursors to find frequencies of the ripples.
Do they show about 65kHz, 1.5MHz, and 33MHz ?
I do not recall seeing the noise after removing CH1 probe from the DC of PSU, so now I need to go check if such noise is still there just when connecting probe.
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Perhaps this ~280kHz "50% PWM" is emi coming from the LCD screen of the unit ! I not sure how the screen is actually painting the picture. It perhaps does look like the flat noise being offset on the screen, which then looks like PWM ?
I had probe set to AC 10x with the ground clip on ground lug at the 1kHz terminal.
Move probe closer to screen, amplitude (peak of "PWM") goes up, move away from screen and amplitude drops off fast.
I wonder how much noise these Rigol "packages" make?
But duly noted, I could not reproduce the noise I saw on the PSU DC when just having a floating probe attached. I was able to see something small at around 1.5MHz, but I might suspect that's just the noise from PSU coupling over to the floating probe ("antenna").
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I can say that this power supply is not bad... but the noise from it is 200 millivolts from peak to peak, which is still a lot. My power bank is half as noisy! If anything, I use a Ugreen 145W power bank. I don’t use this included power supply. All my sources with PD are much less noisy...
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Touchscreen EMI leakage? I wonder how much leaks into the probe wires?
Seems to be on-par with what I was seeing two posts back?
Edit - went sleuthing for that 1.5MHz I was seeing in PSU DC. Started up my SA4, found a -68dBm in a noise floor around -115dBm, turns out it's a local high-watt 1550 AM station. I also dug up some MuRata filter units I had from a project long ago, gonna try that on the PSU DC.
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I made a short review of Android capabilities on Rigol
https://youtu.be/m4C0zKq4ay4
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Crap capacitors on output of psu.I do a lot experiments just to see the behaviour with load on oscilloscope change the output capacitors from various cheap psus laptop adapters or phone chargers and solder same mf capacity panasonic fr series in most of cases the riple goes down from 20% to 70% tested on electronic load before and after.Sometimes make big difference to change and the 400-450v cap on ac input with good quality but not always.Most important is the ESR of output caps.
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Nice video, note display here.
https://youtu.be/3OJnjXrAf5k?t=270 (https://youtu.be/3OJnjXrAf5k?t=270)
It's something that goes with "touchscreen" territory. Micsigs are similar out of the box but Micsig includes a matte screen protector with every 'scope. It really helps.
I'm waiting on a couple of screen protectors to try with my Rigol.
Glass or vinyl protector?
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Glass or vinyl protector?
I pasted on a matte protective film for phones/tablets (hydrogel according to the seller). I got a lot of advantages: glare disappeared completely, fingers glide easier, no fingerprints remain. But it seemed to me that there is a minus - the small text is slightly blurred. But maybe it was just my imagination; I didn’t try to peel the film back and compare it carefully. So if the size of the film allows, then I would recommend first sticking a small piece on the part of the screen where there is small text (for example, on top, where the trigger parameters are displayed) and check whether the film will blur the text.
By the way, in the Android settings you can slightly increase the font size, then small inscriptions and numbers are better readable from a certain distance. But the markup is slightly slipping :) The screenshots show the standard text size and an enlarged one.
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\$\Omega\$I also applied a matte film, and yes, the text is a little blurry, but it doesn’t bother me at all since I used a custom and slightly larger font. The font was changed using this application
https://4pda.to/forum/index.php?showtopic=598323&view=findpost&p=33790100
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\$\Omega\$I also applied a matte film, and yes, the text is a little blurry, but it doesn’t bother me at all since I used a custom and slightly larger font. The font was changed using this application
https://4pda.to/forum/index.php?showtopic=598323&view=findpost&p=33790100
Well, native fonts don’t really bother me, but thanks for the program, I’ll keep it in mind :)
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I will go with glass, just not 100% sure if glossy or matte.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C6LJQJKX (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C6LJQJKX)
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New trick:
When you have measurements on the side bar you can swipe them to the right to remove them.
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New firmware.
v00.01.02.00.02 2023/12/28
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem that window transparency cannot load the last value
3. Solve the problem that the LA function cannot display the label after setting it
v00.01.02.00.01 2023/12/5
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve edge jitter below 31kHz
v00.01.02.00.00 2023/11/2
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem of UltraLab startup connection failure
3. Solve the problem of failure to save waveform in wfm format
4. Solve the problem of unresponsive touch on startup screen
https://download.rigol.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Oscilloscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.02.zip (https://download.rigol.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Oscilloscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.02.zip)
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New firmware.
v00.01.02.00.02 2023/12/28
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem that window transparency cannot load the last value
3. Solve the problem that the LA function cannot display the label after setting it
v00.01.02.00.01 2023/12/5
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve edge jitter below 31kHz
v00.01.02.00.00 2023/11/2
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem of UltraLab startup connection failure
3. Solve the problem of failure to save waveform in wfm format
4. Solve the problem of unresponsive touch on startup screen
https://download.rigol.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Oscilloscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.02.zip (https://download.rigol.com/cn/Firmware/Digital%20Oscilloscope/DHO800%26DHO900/DHO800_DHO900(Software)Updatev00.01.02.00.02.zip)
Something is wrong with self-calibration, they optimize it with every update...
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New firmware.
* Solve the problem that window transparency cannot load the last value
* Solve edge jitter below 31kHz
Some actual bug fixes!
I wonder if the window transparency fix also solves the other "didn't save state properly" bugs... like zoom setting.
Let's see...
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I wonder if the window transparency fix also solves the other "didn't save state properly" bugs... like zoom setting.
Let's see...
Nope. Window transparency is fixed but it still doesn't remember zoom setting.
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Nope. Window transparency is fixed but it still doesn't remember zoom setting.
What zoom do you mean? When I turn it on, the scales of all channels are restored, and if the horizontal zoom was turned on, then it remains on after turning on the oscilloscope.
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Something is wrong with self-calibration, they optimize it with every update...
I was thinking the same thing.
Also, anything newer than 00.01.01.xx.xx is not available from the Rigol main sites? But available from a .cn download URL?
There's now three (3) newer FW's past 00.01.01.xx.xx
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Also, anything newer than 00.01.01.xx.xx is not available from the Rigol main sites? But available from a .cn download URL?
Yes, this new firmware is available on the Chinese website. Both on the oscilloscope description page and in the support/download section.
There's now three (3) newer FW's past 00.01.01.xx.xx
Why not two? 00.01.02.00.00 and 00.01.02.00.02
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Also, anything newer than 00.01.01.xx.xx is not available from the Rigol main sites? But available from a .cn download URL?
Yes, this new firmware is available on the Chinese website. Both on the oscilloscope description page and in the support/download section.
There's now three (3) newer FW's past 00.01.01.xx.xx
Why not two? 00.01.02.00.00 and 00.01.02.00.02
I see three (3) versions of 00.01.02.00.xx FW's
[Model Supported] All the DHO800/900 series oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date] 2023/12/28
[Updated Contents]
v00.01.02.00.02 2023/12/28
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem that window transparency cannot load the last value
3. Solve the problem that the LA function cannot display the label after setting it
v00.01.02.00.01 2023/12/5
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve edge jitter below 31kHz
v00.01.02.00.00 2023/11/2
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem of UltraLab startup connection failure
3. Solve the problem of failure to save waveform in wfm format
4. Solve the problem of unresponsive touch on startup screen
v00.01.01.00.02 2023/09/12
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Update Help Documents
v00.01.01.00.01 2023/08/10
1. Remove all time-related displays on the instrument
2. To modify the vertical interface, click the wiring diagram to modify the AC coupling function
3. Modify the delayed scan Chinese display as Zoom
4. Modify the order of the menu in the upper right corner, put the measurement in the front and Default in the back
5. The probe ratio interface is removed, and the probe ratio option is added to the vertical first-level menu
v00.01.00.00.19 2023/07/24
1. The first version is released
-Released the production version.
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I see three (3) versions of 00.01.02.00.xx FW's
[Model Supported] All the DHO800/900 series oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date] 2023/12/28
[Updated Contents]
v00.01.02.00.02 2023/12/28
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem that window transparency cannot load the last value
3. Solve the problem that the LA function cannot display the label after setting it
v00.01.02.00.01 2023/12/5
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve edge jitter below 31kHz
v00.01.02.00.00 2023/11/2
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem of UltraLab startup connection failure
3. Solve the problem of failure to save waveform in wfm format
4. Solve the problem of unresponsive touch on startup screen
v00.01.01.00.02 2023/09/12
1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Update Help Documents
v00.01.01.00.01 2023/08/10
1. Remove all time-related displays on the instrument
2. To modify the vertical interface, click the wiring diagram to modify the AC coupling function
3. Modify the delayed scan Chinese display as Zoom
4. Modify the order of the menu in the upper right corner, put the measurement in the front and Default in the back
5. The probe ratio interface is removed, and the probe ratio option is added to the vertical first-level menu
v00.01.00.00.19 2023/07/24
1. The first version is released
-Released the production version.
Ah, I understand. But version 01.02.00.01 didn’t seem to show up anywhere :)
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Ah, I understand. But version 01.02.00.01 didn’t seem to show up anywhere :)
Somebody on this forum mentioned about 01.02.x disappearance some time ago. Also there was discussion about bugs in this particular update.
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No new info to anyone here, but it looks like they sent Voltlog a free unit which is nice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja25VbcJfjA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja25VbcJfjA)
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No new info to anyone here, but it looks like they sent Voltlog a free unit which is nice:
Is the 800HD ?
What's new in it?
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No new info to anyone here, but it looks like they sent Voltlog a free unit which is nice:
Is the 800HD ?
What's new in it?
Read what I wrote, a second time and slower.
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Is the 800HD ?
What's new in it?
This is a standard DHO814 :)
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Little bit of a pain to download, usually all my instruments need is a disk with everything extracted on it and it finds the file. It didn't work until I selected the GEL file from the extraction.
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What zoom do you mean? When I turn it on, the scales of all channels are restored, and if the horizontal zoom was turned on, then it remains on after turning on the oscilloscope.
The setting for what happens when you push the horizontal timebase knob.
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What zoom do you mean? When I turn it on, the scales of all channels are restored, and if the horizontal zoom was turned on, then it remains on after turning on the oscilloscope.
The setting for what happens when you push the horizontal timebase knob.
Ah, I understand. Yes, this setting is not saved for me either.
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New Firmware in this site https://supportint.rigol.com/En/Index/listView/catid/28/tp/6/xl/51
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New Firmware in this site https://supportint.rigol.com/En/Index/listView/catid/28/tp/6/xl/51
I don't think it's "new". At least nothing new since Jan 11 2024.
it's the same version 00.01.02.00.02 I downloaded already, and my download release notes say
[Model Supported] All the DHO800/900 series oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date] 2023/12/28
[Updated Contents]
v00.01.02.00.02 2023/12/28
Appears to be the same version I downloaded on Jan 11th.
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I don't think it's "new". At least nothing new since Jan 11 2024.
it's the same version 00.01.02.00.02 I downloaded already, and my download release notes say [...]
[Latest Revision Date] 2023/12/28
Mixing up dates by just a few weeks is spot-on for Rigol. I have downloaded firmware for other Rigol scopes where the release dates stated on the website were off by months, and in either direction, from what was inside the .zip archive.
For whatever reason their firmware release process is messy, regarding dates as well as the version numbering scheme.
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Yes, this is the same version that appeared on the Chinese site a few days ago. Now they have made it available on the international version of the site.
But European and North American sites are in no hurry to post it yet.
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New Firmware in this site https://supportint.rigol.com/En/Index/listView/catid/28/tp/6/xl/51
I don't think it's "new". At least nothing new since Jan 11 2024.
it's the same version 00.01.02.00.02 I downloaded already, and my download release notes say
[Model Supported] All the DHO800/900 series oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date] 2023/12/28
[Updated Contents]
v00.01.02.00.02 2023/12/28
Appears to be the same version I downloaded on Jan 11th.
It's just that they wrote above that there is no new site anywhere except the Chinese site. I threw the link where else I found it.
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New Firmware in this site https://supportint.rigol.com/En/Index/listView/catid/28/tp/6/xl/51
I did try link, the download button pops up a new URL and wants a login. I even tried to register, but it keeps saying the captcha response is wrong, but I don't think my input is wrong, unless I need to somehome input a curvy line too.
I thought I was buying a properly working scope, free from bad bugs. Not sure my assumption was correct. Bugs, and very hard to understand FW releases, or even ability get FW versions easily, makes "rigol" a "think twice" brand. But of course, I don't own 1000+ series anything, so not sure if the same headaches carry over to the more expensive products?
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Randy,
I had the same problem, finally I refreshed the site and it worked. I think what might happen is if you get the captcha the site gets goofy or goofier?
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New Firmware in this site https://supportint.rigol.com/En/Index/listView/catid/28/tp/6/xl/51
I did try link, the download button pops up a new URL and wants a login. I even tried to register, but it keeps saying the captcha response is wrong, but I don't think my input is wrong, unless I need to somehome input a curvy line too.
I thought I was buying a properly working scope, free from bad bugs. Not sure my assumption was correct. Bugs, and very hard to understand FW releases, or even ability get FW versions easily, makes "rigol" a "think twice" brand. But of course, I don't own 1000+ series anything, so not sure if the same headaches carry over to the more expensive products?
There were warnings. Rigol did worse than usual here. Others do better job, even Rigol used to do better than this..
Let's hope they get a grip soon.
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I even tried to register, but it keeps saying the captcha response is wrong, but I don't think my input is wrong, unless I need to somehome input a curvy line too.
As was suggested, maybe try refreshing (and a hard refresh, like Ctrl-R or Ctrl-F5, depending on browser). I sometimes run across failed captchas because of a stale cached captcha image. Sometimes it seems like 2 captchas are sent, with the first one displayed while the second one is what the server expects a response to. Refreshing will usually sync things back up.
I thought I was buying a properly working scope, free from bad bugs. Not sure my assumption was correct. Bugs, and very hard to understand FW releases, or even ability get FW versions easily, makes "rigol" a "think twice" brand. But of course, I don't own 1000+ series anything, so not sure if the same headaches carry over to the more expensive products?
I have a DHO1074, upgraded to DHO1204 with memory depth upgrade. It's not bug free either, and I believe shares some of the same bugs, though from what I'm reading it seems to be a bit more stable than the DHO800/900 series. Of course it's been out a year longer, but as they're so similar I'd expect much of the DHO1000 firmware to be present in its little brothers. Navigating Rigol's various sites and finding firmware is not really any different between the models, though. That's just Rigol being Rigol.
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For the price (famous last words!), I'll live with the quirks. I've returned Siglent instruments for bugs but this is just my back up scope and I don't own anything else from them.
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For the price (famous last words!), I'll live with the quirks. I've returned Siglent instruments for bugs but this is just my back up scope and I don't own anything else from them.
Yep. It works for me. Would be nice if they fixed a couple of things but it gets the job done as-is.
Could it be better? Of course. ANYTHING can be better.
I don't even care if the FFT doesn't have every possible parameter, it's plenty good enough to see frequency peaks and harmonics when I need them (and really easy to use - just swipe and pinch to find them).
And maybe I'm getting older but I'm a huge fan of the text readability and overall display quality. I'm not seeing that on any of the images of the new Siglents.
Plus the new Siglents are huge - as big as the previous generation where the Rigol is small/cute.
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where the Rigol is small/cute.
Toys should be cute so that children enjoy playing with them. ;)
Plus the new Siglents are huge - as big as the previous generation
In fact, a fridge is nothing compared to that. :scared:
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I bought a Siglent electronic load, it was riddled with bugs and the fit and finish was horrible. I sent it back and bought an Instek which is very good but it cost more. You get what you pay for I guess, I'm used to Keysight, Tek and other better brands. It's a tool, I don't want too many work arounds or I dump it.
I honestly don't think the DHO800/900's are that bad and I like the footprint, if it was a bigger scope I wouldn't have bought it. The fit and finish is pretty good too.
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I bought a Siglent electronic load, it was riddled with bugs and the fit and finish was horrible. I sent it back and bought an Instek which is very good but it cost more. You get what you pay for I guess, I'm used to Keysight, Tek and other better brands. It's a tool, I don't want too many work arounds or I dump it.
I honestly don't think the DHO800/900's are that bad and I like the footprint, if it was a bigger scope I wouldn't have bought it. The fit and finish is pretty good too.
I still wondering why small scopes like 800/900 even come with a screen. Just make the scope-smarts, have two USB-A ports, bundle it with wifi nano and a wireless logitech keyboard/mouse, and just tell buyer they need to supply their own monitor with HDMI connection. Buyer can then opt to use a small 8" display, or crank it up to a large 32" 4k, or even a 15" touchscreen.
I have a handful of good monitors I don't currently use, and I will eventually attach one to my 804, but then why do I need the 7" on the 804?
The cpacitive touchscreens emit their own EMI / noise, so not having it just mm away from your scope inputs and scope electronics is probably better.
If there was a no-screen option of the 804, I would have bought that.
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I honestly don't think the DHO800/900's are that bad
They are not, you can work with them for the money and they are low-noise.
Not a bad choice as a second scope for the desk.
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The cpacitive touchscreens emit their own EMI / noise, so not having it just mm away from your scope inputs and scope electronics is probably better.
All displays emit noise !
Go sniffing for it with sensitive gear and you will find it.
LED lighting is worse. :scared:
Never an issue with correct probing techniques.
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Plus the new Siglents are huge - as big as the previous generation where the Rigol is small/cute.
Okay, I get that you love Rigol and love to hate on Siglent, but this is a bit much. ::)
Neither are on par with legacy CRT scopes that were two feet wide and three feet deep and weighed 90 pounds.
The Siglents aren't "huge." They're still quite compact for what they offer, and while I don't have confirmed measurements at hand, I'd expect their area is comparable for similar class of scopes. The SDS1000 adopts the newer vertically stacked design with BNCs shifted left below the screen and fewer controls to the right, so they are taller but also more narrow. The SDS800 looks to be very similar in size to the SDS1104X-E (I've heard claims it's based on the same mold) and Rigol DS1054Z formfactor. None of which are "huge." I have the SDS1104X-E sitting beside the DHO1074, and by comparison the DHO is "huge" -- which one would expect given it's 10" screen.
If I want small/cute, I'll grab one of my portable handheld scopes. The DHO800/900 is right in that weird space that's too big to be a handheld and a bit too small for a bench scope with a touchscreen UI. For my bench, I *want* a larger touchscreen. I have the Rigol DHO1074 and for me it's the perfect size for a touch UI on the bench and not large at all for a bench scope. Now that I've used it, I honestly don't think I'd be happy with either Siglent's or Rigol's 800 class scopes with their smaller screens. If the emphasis on UI is moving to touch, then the screens MUST be larger.
I bought a Siglent electronic load, it was riddled with bugs and the fit and finish was horrible. I sent it back and bought an Instek which is very good but it cost more. You get what you pay for I guess, I'm used to Keysight, Tek and other better brands. It's a tool, I don't want too many work arounds or I dump it.
I honestly don't think the DHO800/900's are that bad and I like the footprint, if it was a bigger scope I wouldn't have bought it. The fit and finish is pretty good too.
Apart from the Rigol fanboys, I think most will acknowledge that on a quality and professional scale, Siglent has been pulling away from Rigol in this mid-tier category. In the beginning, they were strictly budget tier, but now are positioning themselves as being more pro than Rigol, encroaching on the territory formerly dominated by the top tier HPAK/LeCroy/R&S brands. Sure, Siglent has had their stumbles, but so have all the others. And Rigol seems to stumble more out of the gate where Siglent is usually more polished at release now.
I would definitely rank Rigol above the Hantek/FNIRSI/OWON brands but also below Siglent.
I have the Rigol DHO1074 (fully upgraded) and there's a lot I really like about it, especially for the BF price I paid (I don't think I'd be nearly as happy if I'd paid MSRP though). I like that Rigol is pushing the market to respond and be competitive on next-gen capabilities, even if they release premature products to do it. But I also own several pieces of Siglent gear including an electronic load, and I have few complaints about any of it. It's been great. To be honest, I'm happy enough with my Siglent gear that I wouldn't have even considered Rigol if Siglent had an answer to the DHO1000 series at a comparable features/price point. Should the SDS1000 be released at a good price point, even if a bit more than the DHO, I'll most likely be trading up to it.
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One reason is compact portability which I'll use it for.
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Personally I love Keysight meters, the 34401A was a classic right out of the box and I still use one, the 34465A is a keeper too. For me, again, for me, the extra cost is worth it. Tek scopes are high on my list too. I traded a Tek scope for the RTB2004 and I've been disappointed with it. Sure, it's ten bits and loaded but it had a lot of bugs and now the coarse/ fine horiz. stopped working in the coarse position, to me it's a dog.
I think the DHO924s is better than the old boat anchor Teks though, just in versatility the new scopes win hands down.
Personally I don't own enough Chinese instruments to claim any one is better than the next, like I said the Rigol is my backup scope that I can bang around or when I need portability, it's great for what I'm using it for, Siglent doesn't make a scope this size so Rigol beat them out of the gate.
I use a stylus pen and the monitor does what it's intended.
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Has anyone had success with a 5 GHz WiFi dongle with this scope? There is a known 2.4GHz device that is known to work, but 5 GHz is usually a better idea. How do we know whether a certain device is going to work? There should be a way to list the enabled/available WiFi-related modules in the kernel that this scope is running -- has anyone looked into this?
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Has anyone had success with a 5 GHz WiFi dongle with this scope? There is a known 2.4GHz device that is known to work, but 5 GHz is usually a better idea. How do we know whether a certain device is going to work? There should be a way to list the enabled/available WiFi-related modules in the kernel that this scope is running -- has anyone looked into this?
Why is 5GHz a better idea? You don't need wifi speed with a DHO scope.
1st, the DHO only came with one .ko KLM driver, for the Realtek 8188eu wifi chipset. This driver is discussed a lot in the 800/900 hacking thread.
2nd, you can use whatever USB wifi you want, as long as a driver was compiled for the DHO OS (android kitkat or something).
3rd, browse latest few pages in the 800/900 Hacking thread, he got the Edimax EW-7611ULB working, but it's a 2.4GHz + Bluetooth device, no 5GHz.
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Why is 5GHz a better idea? You don't need wifi speed with a DHO scope.
Two reasons (valid for my case -- might not be the same for everybody):
- band usage: there are a couple dozens of neighbours' and my own devices in the 2.4 GHz band, whereas the 5 GHz band is virtually free;
- speed is not too important, but latency definitely is (for the web UI), and I am seeing consistently lower latency and lower packet loss rate with the devices connected to the 5 GHz access point. This may be because of how crammed the 2.4 GHz band is (but may also be because of my specific router & client combinations).
1st, the DHO only came with one .ko KLM driver, for the Realtek 8188eu wifi chipset. This driver is discussed a lot in the 800/900 hacking thread.
So basically no 5 GHz chipsets support out of the box, then.
2nd, you can use whatever USB wifi you want, as long as a driver was compiled for the DHO OS (android kitkat or something).
Kernel modules are compiled for a specific version (and for specific compile-time options as well) of linux kernel, not to mention the CPU architecture. I'm not sure how it goes with android: are all builds of a specific version of android have the same linux kernel version and build configuration? In desktop linux distributions, for example, modules package and kernel package are mutually-dependent and won't work with other versions, and there can be multiple versions of kernel in the same distro.
Either way, compiling or finding a required module might be feasible, however not necessarily practical in terms of effort vs gain.
3rd, browse latest few pages in the 800/900 Hacking thread, he got the Edimax EW-7611ULB working, but it's a 2.4GHz + Bluetooth device, no 5GHz.
Well I googled before posting, but I was looking specifically for a 5 GHz experience.
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Has anyone had success with a 5 GHz WiFi dongle with this scope? There is a known 2.4GHz device that is known to work, but 5 GHz is usually a better idea. How do we know whether a certain device is going to work? There should be a way to list the enabled/available WiFi-related modules in the kernel that this scope is running -- has anyone looked into this?
Here one of the users seemed to have a successful experience connecting Wi-Fi 5GHz - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5275762/#msg5275762 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5275762/#msg5275762)
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I honestly don't think the DHO800/900's are that bad and I like the footprint, if it was a bigger scope I wouldn't have bought it. The fit and finish is pretty good too.
It's one of those things where you have to see it in person to understand it.
When you see it, you just know.
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I still wondering why small scopes like 800/900 even come with a screen.
If there was a no-screen option of the 804, I would have bought that.
It's a nice idea but would it really be much smaller/cheaper?
Would you still want the knobs on the front? There's some controls on the the front that I've never touched but others I use a lot (eg. trigger level, horizontal time base, vertical scale).
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I still wondering why small scopes like 800/900 even come with a screen...
If there was a no-screen option of the 804, I would have bought that.
because we need the screen. why consider rigol at all? there are more compact solution... https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope (https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope) :palm:
Not the same at all, that requires a PC software running on it. You can't just connect it to a screen and it works as an oscilloscope.
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Here is the DHO804 FW1.14 image (Thanks to @hubertyoung) with the DHO924 vendor file preloaded. Extract using 7zip then flash using HDD Raw Copy Tool (compressed image). If there is an vertical offset then use self cal or extended self cal.
https://mega.nz/file/UjBC3KRY#Kqv1BCHNQdPcUGMfR8IqbuUwHUsUhU4GpO1keTAXqf8
Hi,
- This is what I've done:
1. Run the Win32 Disk Imager
2. Backup the SD
3. Flash the SD with the image from the link
4. Run the claibartation (offset gone) - device identifies as DHO804
5. Connect the scope to ethernet
6 Run adb:
6.1 adb devices
6.2 adb connect 192.xxx.x.xxx:55555
6.3 "adb pull /rigol/data/vendor.bin"
6.4 backup the generated vendor bin file from the adb folder to a new location
6.5 copy in the adb folder the DHO924 vendor.bin file
6.6 "adb push vendor.bin /rigol/data"
Is this procedure usable with firmware 00.01.02?
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Multi-part question:
Have y'all found any functions on the DHO8/900 series that can't be done via the touchscreen only?
Optionally, is the web interface 100% usable without touching the physical buttons and knobs? -or the touchscreen?
Assuming Mouse & Keyboard are in use, BTW
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Have y'all found any functions on the DHO8/900 series that can't be done via the touchscreen only?
The "touch lock" button on the keypad seems to have no touchscreen equivalent at all. ;)
More seriously: Some adjustments are more awkward without the knobs -- you can either use imprecise finger gestures or somewhat tedious on-screen keypad entry. But you can adjust everything using the touch screen only, I believe.
(Disclaimer: This is based on my DHO1000 use. But I think the two scopes are equivalent in that respect, with the DHO1000 having an extra physical button or two.)
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The SD card is now fixed with some sticky fabric tape instead of hot glue (as was the case in Dave's video):
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=1]
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The SD card is now fixed with some sticky fabric tape instead of hot glue (as was the case in Dave's video):
Was it really hot glue? I would think temp of hot glue could melt the plastic of small sd card.
Maybe it was a type of silicone?
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Was it really hot glue? I would think temp of hot glue could melt the plastic of small sd card.
Maybe it was a type of silicone?
Maybe, who knows. Just wanted to show that it's different now, although it's kind of expected, since Dave's scope was from one of the early batches, maybe even pre-release.
Btw it is stuck there really hard, I had to warm it up a little with hot air.
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The melting point of hot glue is no more than 100 degrees Celsius, it cannot damage the plastic of the SD card.
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The melting point of hot glue is no more than 100 degrees Celsius, it cannot damage the plastic of the SD card.
Melting point is not applied glue temp. Much hotter for flow.
100C 212F
Some ("typical") hot glue is 2x that.
But then again, I am sure Rigol would be using a very low temp hot glue to glue in some stuff like SD card.
I've just always seen glues on electronics to be silicone types that can be applied at room temp and air cure. Some cure soft, some very stiff.
A glue gun’s temperature can vary depending on the model and brand, but they typically operate between 375 and 400 degrees Fahrenheit. Hobby/craft glue most likely the reference.
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I've used hot glue quite a bit and I've never seen it melt anything. Ordinary hot glue is pretty common in electronics, I find it on circuit boards often where you'd normally find silastic. For example it's commonly used with 3D printer boards to secure JST connections for stepper motors, thermocouples, and sensors.
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I've used hot glue quite a bit and I've never seen it melt anything.
I'm sure we've all got some on our hands before. It's not third-degree...
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Can someone tell me which protective glass is suitable for the oscilloscope screen? Or stick a protective film?
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Thought I'd post some rising edges here. One, two, three, and four channels enabled, one screenshot for each case.
Edges were produced by a single SN74LVC1G14 @5V VCC, signal was captured using a stock probe with a spring connector for ground, directly on the IC's pins. Ch2 is the input signal coming from a signal generator.
No 50 Ohm-terminated connection, sorry -- I still need to get some cable, connectors, terminators etc.
Comparing to what others posted earlier, it seems to be the limit of this scope (same numbers with the Leo Bodnar's generator).
I wonder how fast an edge the SN74LVC1G14 can produce. I want to build a pulse generator and have this IC in mind, but the datasheet doesn't specify rise/fall times, only the propagation delay, which is 0.9ns min / 4.4ns max at 15pF load at 5V VCC. I remember someone mentioning that it has rise/fall times well below 1ns. The idea is to make a pulse gen that will definitely be faster than this scope can capture, to verify probes etc.
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Can someone tell me which protective glass is suitable for the oscilloscope screen? Or stick a protective film?
I got InnoSURE for Garmin Drivesmart 6.95"
It's the right size, matte and gloss glass options, but I have not yet stuck it to the DHO804
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Guys, my DHO914S arrives tomorrow and I'm ready to try DIY LA logic module PLA2216, it runs great on my MSO5000 oscilloscope.
And then I will talk about dismantling DHO914S look at the AFG module structure inside it, and by the way, I want to get a free DHO924S. :-DD
I also have to assemble VESA100 as a fixation bracket, please wait for my homework.
Hi Souldevelop.
Still can't figure out howto upgrade my DHO914S into DHO924S....
Had a DHO800 upgraded to DHO924 but can't know for this extended version. Any help appreciated.
Thank You.
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Still can't figure out howto upgrade my DHO914S into DHO924S....
Had a DHO800 upgraded to DHO924 but can't know for this extended version. Any help appreciated.
You need a vendor.bin for DHO924S.
(you can make your own using the script that's floating around)
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Still can't figure out howto upgrade my DHO914S into DHO924S....
Had a DHO800 upgraded to DHO924 but can't know for this extended version. Any help appreciated.
You need a vendor.bin for DHO924S.
(you can make your own using the script that's floating around)
specificity is much more helpful, here i pin locked among the most important info, not sure if its still applicable (any hack related discussion should be there fwiw)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5254071/#msg5254071 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5254071/#msg5254071) or the another...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5148330/#msg5148330 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5148330/#msg5148330)
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Still can't figure out howto upgrade my DHO914S into DHO924S....
Had a DHO800 upgraded to DHO924 but can't know for this extended version. Any help appreciated.
You need a vendor.bin for DHO924S.
(you can make your own using the script that's floating around)
specificity is much more helpful, here i pin locked among the most important info, not sure if its still applicable (any hack related discussion should be there fwiw)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5254071/#msg5254071 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5254071/#msg5254071) or the another...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5148330/#msg5148330 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5148330/#msg5148330)
Thank You so much. I had the ability to successfully upgrade my old DHO804 into 924 using ready-to-use fungus method explained here at reply #111 but when I got the 914S in my hands I was afraid that upgrading it to upper bandwidth with same method I would loose the native S feature..
By the way during upgrade and revert to original 804 I had to manually hard reset the oscope by plugging out the powercord (even with the alert on his thread) since the adb reboot option didn't work for me in either phases.. The oscope was freezed durning reboot and even after 15minutes it was still hung in the middle of nowhere.. And that was some really panic moments, expecially the first time.
And also I have lost the thread discussion update since then ( from reply 111 to 1950) wow it's a growth..
Thanks for the help and the link
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By the way during upgrade and revert to original 804 I had to manually hard reset the oscope by plugging out the powercord (even with the alert on his thread) since the adb reboot option didn't work for me in either phases..
Yeah, I don't think reboot syncs the file system. I've had a couple of fails with that.
You can do do "adb sync" before reboot but these days I do this:
adb shell kill -9 $(pidof com.rigol.scope)
That kills the 'scope app.
It comes back automatically after a few seconds as the new model, it's much faster than rebooting.
(nb. You need to be root, do "adb root" if you aren't already)
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Has someone found a bag/case for the scope that would be just right size-wise and ideally having internal compartments for the PSU and probes?
I know that there is some rigol-branded bag made specifically for this scope, but I'm looking for what's available specifically on Aliexpress -- ordering elsewhere is currently non-viable logistics-wise for me.
Here's two that I've found so far that seem to be the best:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33004483750.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33004483750.html) -- bigger, has a separated compartment inside, but a little too big, could be smaller:
[attachimg=1]
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006312639453.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006312639453.html) -- smaller, cheaper, no separate compartment.
[attachimg=2]
If someone has found something better, please share.
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Has someone found a bag/case for the scope that would be just right size-wise and ideally having internal compartments for the PSU and probes?
I know that there is some rigol-branded bag made specifically for this scope, but I'm looking for what's available specifically on Aliexpress -- ordering elsewhere is currently non-viable logistics-wise for me.
Here's two that I've found so far that seem to be the best:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33004483750.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33004483750.html) -- bigger, has a separated compartment inside, but a little too big, could be smaller:
(Attachment Link)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006312639453.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006312639453.html) -- smaller, cheaper, no separate compartment.
(Attachment Link)
If someone has found something better, please share.
me too even if there is a dedicated thread for the bag here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-case-options/msg5235294/#msg5235294 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-case-options/msg5235294/#msg5235294).
Some user suggests a projector case.
I guess Aliexpress can fully comply you needs.
Regards.
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Yeah I didn't realize there was a separate thread, thanks for the hint.
Not much info there, though.
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Needing some teardown info.
Wondering where the fan wires actually terminate? Do they land on just Vcc-Gnd, or do they land on some pins of a chip?
I ask because the rigol start script makes commented reference to fan PWM KLM, but the ko is not in the GEL FW set.
# 加载 PWM Fan 驱动
# insmod /rigol/driver/pwm_fan.ko
# chmod 777 /dev/pwm_fan
I confirm, in the 1000/4000 GEL they enable PWM FAN and it includes the KLM pwm_fan.ko binary.
I suspect 800/900 does not have pwn chip used for pwm, but I don't know 100%.
I will take the 1000/4000 KLM ko and put it on my 804, adjust start script, and see what happens.
Some strings from the pwm_fan.ko
pwm-fan
license=GPL
description=PWM FAN driver
alias=platform:pwm-fan
author=Kamil Debski <k.debski@samsung.com>
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-3db bandwidth measurement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ScOOjAyNQQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ScOOjAyNQQ)
(spoiler: better than advertised; measures over 300 MHz)
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(spoiler: better than advertised; measures over 300 MHz)
Bit surprise for me, because I was expecting way more. It has same input stages as in DHO4000. Maybe it was limited by capacitor (different value than DHO4000) or by ADC.
Or... maybe its a generator/coax fault of author of that test.
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Bit surprise for me, because I was expecting way more. It has same input stages as in DHO4000. Maybe it was limited by capacitor (different value than DHO4000) or by ADC.
Or... maybe its a generator/coax fault of author of that test.
Rise time measurements also indicate max bandwidth on the order of ~300 MHz.
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Rise time measurements also indicate max bandwidth on the order of ~300 MHz.
DHO800 and DHO900 series has 1.25 GSa/s sample rate. That means one sample per 0.8 ns. 300 MHz is equal to rise time of 1.1(6) ns (about one and half sample time). So its practically impossible to make precise measure of rise time in this scope.
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I measured ~280Mhz on my DHO804 with a DHO924 vendor.bin.
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I measured ~280Mhz on my DHO804 with a DHO924 vendor.bin.
Which method? -3db amplitude?
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I measured ~280Mhz on my DHO804 with a DHO924 vendor.bin.
Which method? -3db amplitude?
Pulse.
But other forum members have done -3dB and got the same results.
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Here is a link to increasing the frequency to 400 MHz; replacing inductors expands the band. https://4pda.to/forum/index.php?showtopic=1080959#entry128030525 Post №21-30.
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Here is a link to increasing the frequency to 400 MHz; replacing inductors expands the band. https://4pda.to/forum/index.php?showtopic=1080959#entry128030525 Post №21-30.
Google translate doesnt helps well. I see on images LC filters, so Im guessing I should change inductors to 0 ohm resistor and maybe remove capacitors.
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Here is a link to increasing the frequency to 400 MHz; replacing inductors expands the band. https://4pda.to/forum/index.php?showtopic=1080959#entry128030525 Post №21-30.
Google translate doesnt helps well. I see on images LC filters, so Im guessing I should change inductors to 0 ohm resistor and maybe remove capacitors.
It is enough to replace the blue inductors with inductors with a nominal value of 12-15 nH.
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It is enough to replace the blue inductors with inductors with a nominal value of 12-15 nH.
I know sample rate will be the same but higher bandwidth (frequency) will make possible to see properly square waves at higher frequency (1/10 - 1/5 of bandwidth).
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I know sample rate will be the same but higher bandwidth (frequency) will make possible to see properly square waves at higher frequency (1/10 - 1/5 of bandwidth).
But only in single-channel mode. As soon as you use a second (or even a third) channel, aliasing will result because the sampling rate no longer meets the Nyquist requirement.
It will also not be trivial to properly feed the signal into the scope, given that the input section offers no internal 50 Ohm termination. So to "properly see" that fast-edged square wave, and e.g. know whether any ringing you see (or don't see) is real or due to your probing technique, will be a challenge.
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no if you have 50 ohm bandwidth limiter at the dso input ;D
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It will also not be trivial to properly feed the signal into the scope, given that the input section offers no internal 50 Ohm termination. So to "properly see" that fast-edged square wave, and e.g. know whether any ringing you see (or don't see) is real or due to your probing technique, will be a challenge.
It is actually the case as it is, at the existing max ~300 MHz BW: fast edges produce significant overshoot and ringing when using a probe, potentially making the scope calculate the actual rise time incorrectly, even when the spring ground connection is used, and they disappear to leave a nice clean edge when even a simple termination via a T-connector is done (an inline feed-through terminator may be even better -- I don't yet have one to check).
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Has someone found a bag/case for the scope that would be just right size-wise and ideally having internal compartments for the PSU and probes?
This is what I've got for my scope for 17$ delivered to UK:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005213947242.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005213947242.html) (select large size)
Size-wise I'd say it is a perfect fit, it has space for the power supply, mains cable + 4 probes.
The case is reasonably hard but the screen will not survive if you bang it against a hard corner or if you place a heavy object on it.
I will probably add inside a layer of foam just to cover the LCD.
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Wanbo X1 Max
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Just quick question, anyone with root access tried to change DPI in Android on these devices?
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Just quick question, anyone with root access tried to change DPI in Android on these devices?
DPI of the DHO touchscreen? I think that was attempted in the hacking thread, IIRC no real gains.
I believe the driver for the touchscreen uses "max dpi" of the device (screen).
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Catastrophe. For some reason I turned on "Simulation of a second display" in the developer settings. Never do that :))) I could barely get it back into working order :)
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Just quick question, anyone with root access tried to change DPI in Android on these devices?
I changed the DPI in the developer settings from native 421 to 600. The Android interface changes, it becomes smaller, but the oscilloscope application interface remains unchanged.
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Just quick question, anyone with root access tried to change DPI in Android on these devices?
I changed the DPI in the developer settings from native 421 to 600. The Android interface changes, it becomes smaller, but the oscilloscope application interface remains unchanged.
So there is no hope without recompiling application APK.
My idea was to set higher DPI and use external monitor, thus gaining a lot of "working area".
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So there is no hope without recompiling application APK.
My idea was to set higher DPI and use external monitor, thus gaining a lot of "working area".
I wouldn't expect this to work even with a recompiled application. The underlying XY resolution and size of the traces is probably determined by the FPGA which handles the data acquisition and the "digital phosphor" rendering.
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So there is no hope without recompiling application APK.
My idea was to set higher DPI and use external monitor, thus gaining a lot of "working area".
Yes, I tried with an external display too, it doesn't work. By the way, enabling 4k resolution (3840x2160) in HDMI properties does not improve the interface image. One gets the impression that when the resolution is higher than native (1024x600), the image is simply scaled.
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So there is no hope without recompiling application APK.
My idea was to set higher DPI and use external monitor, thus gaining a lot of "working area".
Yes, I tried with an external display too, it doesn't work. By the way, enabling 4k resolution (3840x2160) in HDMI properties does not improve the interface image. One gets the impression that when the resolution is higher than native (1024x600), the image is simply scaled.
Scaling is the only way it can output a lower resolution to a much higher resolution canvas. The math used for interpolation matters, the conversion needs to fill-in pixels that were not there in original. In simple terms, scaling adds artifacts, but done using interpolation (nearest neighbor, etc) to do it's best to make an acceptable gradient. I myself don't like scalers in video. Best pic is a screen res that matches source res, no added artifacts. In some cases this means a large native canvas should get a 1:1 pixel match with the source centered on the canvas.
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Scaling is the only way it can output a lower resolution to a much higher resolution canvas. The math used for interpolation matters, the conversion needs to fill-in pixels that were not there in original. In simple terms, scaling adds artifacts, but done using interpolation (nearest neighbor, etc) to do it's best to make an acceptable gradient. I myself don't like scalers in video. Best pic is a screen res that matches source res, no added artifacts. In some cases this means a large native canvas should get a 1:1 pixel match with the source centered on the canvas.
There is another option: generate an image whose resolution matches the connected display. Windows, for example, does exactly this.
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Scaling is the only way it can output a lower resolution to a much higher resolution canvas. The math used for interpolation matters, the conversion needs to fill-in pixels that were not there in original. In simple terms, scaling adds artifacts, but done using interpolation (nearest neighbor, etc) to do it's best to make an acceptable gradient. I myself don't like scalers in video. Best pic is a screen res that matches source res, no added artifacts. In some cases this means a large native canvas should get a 1:1 pixel match with the source centered on the canvas.
There is another option: generate an image whose resolution matches the connected display. Windows, for example, does exactly this.
That's what I meant by 1:1.
if the phys screen canvass is 1920x1080, and image painted to that screen that is not exactly 1920x1080 will be scaled, or manipulated in some way to fit the canvas. A pic bigger than native canvas has to be scaled down, pic smaller than native canvas can be shown 1:1, but it will be boxed by border.
I found where Scope app forces screen res, it's in the manifest
<meta-data android:name="design_width_in_dp" android:value="1024"/>
<meta-data android:name="design_height_in_dp" android:value="600"/>
I'll expand more in hacking thread.
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Did anyone uploaded or can upload if available good quality photos of AFG module?
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Did anyone uploaded or can upload if available good quality photos of AFG module?
There are some photos in this post, but I seem to remember having seen better ones:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5074783/#msg5074783 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-dho800900-scope/msg5074783/#msg5074783)
Edit: Higher-re photos here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/awg-in-rigol-dho900s/msg5088559/#msg5088559 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/awg-in-rigol-dho900s/msg5088559/#msg5088559)
If nobody else chimes in, ping Mechatrommer via PM. He should know, since he is working on his own replica of the AFG.
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If nobody else chimes in, ping Mechatrommer via PM. He should know, since he is working on his own replica of the AFG.
my replica is nowhere near the original board. though i saw pictures from souldevelop https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5051812/#msg5051812 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigols-new-dho800-oscilloscope-unbox-teardown/msg5051812/#msg5051812) trying to understand it from pictures alone is impossible for me, so i can just guess the topology is very close to my Uni-T UTG962 AFG... so my replica is closely simplistic/minimalistic version of that, so thats the hint.
the real fun was to reverse engineer what every pin does on the 40 and 10 pins breakout using DS1054Z, arduino uno and my crappy PC SW. there are still 3 pins left that are very unknown to me, probably feedback input i'm not sure, so i dont want you people to miss that fun finding ;D probably some of you people already saw my youtube video on soldering its interface pins, but its not ready yet to publish here, cheers.
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@Mechatrommer
I watched youtube video long ago.
First time I think your PCB design is different but then I see relays they are at 12V so clearly was another schematics.
I try to identify what IC are using and stuck on DC-DC converted some say is marked 04460 but for me looks like 64468 or 6446Q
There is another one that looks like same package on mainboard marked 61460 that may be Texas Instruments LM61460
Hope to hear news from you soon.
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A 3D printed bracket for battery and USB hub. WIFI dongle has been ordered :-)(http://IMG_20240315_142819.jpg)
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Is it possible to record and save a video of what is on the display, rather than a static picture?
I've searched the manual, maybe I'm using the wrong search terms, or maybe it just doesn't do it?
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Is it possible to record and save a video of what is on the display, rather than a static picture?
I've searched the manual, maybe I'm using the wrong search terms, or maybe it just doesn't do it?
If we're talking about scope's own capabilities, then I think there's no way. One possibility is to open the web control page and use a screen recorder. The downside there is the quality loss: for whatever stupid reason, the web control app scales the original 1024x600 image up to 1280x750 pixels, and uses some pixel interpolation algorithm, which produces a blurry image (I wonder if there's any way to disable this scale-up -- might be possible!). Resizing it back to 1024x600 does not restore the original quality which you can get with the in-scope screenshots.
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Is it possible to record and save a video of what is on the display, rather than a static picture?
I've searched the manual, maybe I'm using the wrong search terms, or maybe it just doesn't do it?
DHO800_UserGuide_EN.pdf page 187 (and page 222), see attached.. although istr it only saves into dso, not sure which file is it or if its possible to transfer to usb drive. btw i use my VisaDSO app to do wave recording and analysis... ymmv.
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If we're talking about scope's own capabilities, then I think there's no way.
There is!
[attachimg=1]
This saves screen recording in an mp4 video file and creates a download link. However, it's not in the native resolution again! This time it's upscaled to 1920x1080. It looks like there are no software quality assurance processes at Rigol whatsoever. Either that, or some bright head made this decision deliberately and it is to be considered a feature.
Bit rate is quite high, my quick test used 7.3MB for a 20-sec capture. Watch out for free space on the SD card for longer vids.
I'm trying to hack the webcontrol app and build a fixed apk, but there are some technical difficulties. Will post my updates in the hacking thread if I have any success with this piece of crap.
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Hi, I bought a DHO804 and I want to make measurements between cursor (in Tektronix terminology) or gated measurements (in Keysight terminology).
I tried to do measurements in zoom view with Rigol but it seems to have some bugs or maybe I misunderstood the function.
I think this is a very elementary function and I really don't understand why Rigol puts effort into some advanced stuff (mostly useless) loosing some basic feature like this...
Is there any way to contact Rigol to add this simple basic feature?
Or maybe I can show you the measurements in zoom mode (that can potentially substitute measurements between cursor) that, to me, looks wrong?
Thank you!
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Hi, I bought a DHO804 and I want to make measurements between cursor (in Tektronix terminology) or gated measurements (in Keysight terminology).
I tried to do measurements in zoom view with Rigol but it seems to have some bugs or maybe I misunderstood the function.
I think this is a very elementary function and I really don't understand why Rigol puts effort into some advanced stuff (mostly useless) loosing some basic feature like this...
Is there any way to contact Rigol to add this simple basic feature?
Or maybe I can show you the measurements in zoom mode (that can potentially substitute measurements between cursor) that, to me, looks wrong?
Thank you!
It looks like it doesn't update the measurements in zoom mode.Bug?
There is a section in the measurement settings menu
"Region" here you can choose Main and Zoom
But for some reason it doesn't work.. Bug...
Capture all the pulses you want to measure on the display without zooming.
If there are a lot of them and you can't see them properly on the screen, then set the horizontal scale to a smaller time base, "zoom in, but not with the zoom function", after pressing a pause.
Switch on what you want to measure.
And start dragging the signal on the display to the right and left.
For the +Width measurement, it seems to me that it measures a pulse closer to the vertical center line.
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Ok I'll try this way and if the time will be my friend I take some screenshot and I'll post here the results.
Is there any way to report the bug of measurement in zoom mode to Rigol? Maybe they can fix it in a new firmware release.