Author Topic: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??  (Read 1810 times)

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Offline John_Cavanaugh

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Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« on: June 19, 2019, 08:04:11 pm »
The Rigol 1000Z series is quite long in the tooth.   The Siglent 1000XE series is a bit younger but still not really new. 

With them both sort of old, any thoughts/predictions when the manufactures release a next generation??

I’m looking at pulling the trigger on a new scope but would be kicking myself if a next generation came out in the next 6 months.


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Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2019, 08:14:54 pm »
I don't think there will be new low-end oscilloscopes out soon. It doesn't make much sense for Rigol to come out with yet another Xilinx Zync based oscilloscope and without something radically new compared to the Xilinx Zync GW-Instek and Siglent don't have a way to get more performance at a low price point.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2019, 08:35:43 pm »
The Rigol 1000Z series is quite long in the tooth.   The Siglent 1000XE series is a bit younger but still not really new. 

With them both sort of old, any thoughts/predictions when the manufactures release a next generation??

I’m looking at pulling the trigger on a new scope but would be kicking myself if a next generation came out in the next 6 months.
There will always something just around the corner.  :P

Best advise is to focus on your needs and set your 'must haves' and budget.
Then we can advise on a best fit !
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Offline thm_w

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Online DaJMasta

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2019, 09:40:41 pm »
Keysight's got one too, and while I think there's one from Rigol coming in the next few years, I definitely think it will be after they finish out their first iteration Phoenix chipset based scopes, with their top end still a few months out.  Maybe 2020?  Maybe 2021?  They know the 1054Z is older and that it's selling because of pricing/hackability rather than feature/performance appeal, and it's not a new design, so I think a new version is probably on the way, but it's common to hear some murmurs when it's only months or a year out, and we've heard nothing yet.
 

Offline Old Printer

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2019, 09:51:49 pm »
New design, plus the time to work the bugs out, I don't want to be too early in the lifecycle. That would add up to a good year and a half between the two factors and I was not prepared to wait that long, so I went with the Siglent 1104 and so far happy with my choice. Siglent has been very responsive to bug reports on this scope IMO.
 

Offline Grandchuck

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2019, 10:35:20 pm »
Yeah, the brand new models can be a hassle.  For many, it is better to wait a bit.  There are way too many initial firmware bugs these days.  Due to pressure to start shipping, the early customers get to finalize the design (in a way).  That's fine, if you don't mind doing it and spending lots of time.
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2019, 12:35:09 am »
...the 1054Z is older and that it's selling because of pricing/hackability rather than feature/performance appeal...

Is it?  What features/performance is the 1054Z missing at this price point now?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2019, 12:50:45 am »
The Rigol 1000Z series is quite long in the tooth.   The Siglent 1000XE series is a bit younger but still not really new. 
With them both sort of old, any thoughts/predictions when the manufactures release a next generation??
I’m looking at pulling the trigger on a new scope but would be kicking myself if a next generation came out in the next 6 months.

I have not heard anything.
It's hard to see what they can add and keep the price the same. Or even if they can whether or not it's worthwhile to them and the market to do so.
e.g. if they release a 500MHz 4CH scope with all options for $400, the entire market collapses.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2019, 12:59:12 am »
I don't think there will be new low-end oscilloscopes out soon. It doesn't make much sense for Rigol to come out with yet another Xilinx Zync based oscilloscope and without something radically new compared to the Xilinx Zync GW-Instek and Siglent don't have a way to get more performance at a low price point.

Agreed.
Rigol could simple enable all options and bandwidth and sell at the one discounted price to get many more years worth of top sales.
They could do a 200MHz or more version at the same price, but others have 200MHz models too.
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2019, 01:11:45 am »
The Rigol 1000Z series is quite long in the tooth.   The Siglent 1000XE series is a bit younger but still not really new. 

With them both sort of old, any thoughts/predictions when the manufactures release a next generation??

I’m looking at pulling the trigger on a new scope but would be kicking myself if a next generation came out in the next 6 months.


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The Rigol 1054Z with all options enabled is selling by the truck load. They are not about to drop a bundle of money and re-tool up when they have something that still sells well ;)
 

Online DaJMasta

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2019, 02:51:42 am »
...the 1054Z is older and that it's selling because of pricing/hackability rather than feature/performance appeal...

Is it?  What features/performance is the 1054Z missing at this price point now?

SDS1104X-E vs. DS1104Z Plus, Siglent leads in:
Waveform update rate (3x or more)
Sample rate in two channel or more operation
Color graded display in addition to intensity grading
Lower noise floor
UI responsiveness
FFT sample size
Bode plot functionality
Maximum hackable bandwidth


Don't get me wrong, the 1054z is still good value for money, but it's an older design using older hardware and its performance shows that.  If they were priced the same, the Siglent would win out every time, and Rigol's aggressive pricing is what's keeping their scope relevant on the lower end market.
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2019, 02:54:22 am »
The Rigol 1000Z series is quite long in the tooth.   The Siglent 1000XE series is a bit younger but still not really new. 

With them both sort of old, any thoughts/predictions when the manufactures release a next generation??

I’m looking at pulling the trigger on a new scope but would be kicking myself if a next generation came out in the next 6 months.


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Huh? "A bit younger"? "Not really new"?

The SDS1004X-E series has been introduced just 18 months ago and still receives feature upgrades. And you seriously think it will be replaced already?

There's not one halfway serious T&M company that would renew their product family every other year. We're not talking about consumer gadgets after all.
 

Offline John_Cavanaugh

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2019, 04:53:42 am »
Yeah, I guess there is the "whole new platform" and then there is the "mid life kicker" upgrade.    Now Im not talking a whole new analog front end etc.   Im talking the digital & ui pieces.

Im leaning heavily towards the Siglent 1104-XE.   Yes its ~$150 more, but it has a better display, deeper memory, quicker ui response times (presumably faster cpu, dual core), the FFT seems actually usable and the bode plot is sort of bonus (but a half baked wip).   

But those are all things I could see easily in a mid life kicker from Rigol.   But I guess you could just say, hey, that is the Rigol 2000, 4000 or 5000 series...   If they did it at the same or near price point they have today, they would eat away the siglent low end business.   

Alas, perhaps the MSO5000 series is the better way to go as it has way more features and capabilities and I could avoid buying a $350 signal generator.

Hmm...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 04:56:11 am by John_Cavanaugh »
 

Offline John_Cavanaugh

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2019, 04:57:00 am »
The Rigol 1000Z series is quite long in the tooth.   The Siglent 1000XE series is a bit younger but still not really new. 

With them both sort of old, any thoughts/predictions when the manufactures release a next generation??

I’m looking at pulling the trigger on a new scope but would be kicking myself if a next generation came out in the next 6 months.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Huh? "A bit younger"? "Not really new"?

The SDS1004X-E series has been introduced just 18 months ago and still receives feature upgrades. And you seriously think it will be replaced already?

There's not one halfway serious T&M company that would renew their product family every other year. We're not talking about consumer gadgets after all.

Yeah, I got the dates wrong, I thought it had been introduced in 2015.  My bad...
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2019, 05:03:41 am »
I think it depends on what their production capacity is for the new Phoenix chipset and how well the new MSO5000 series are selling.  Sure, I'd like a non-MSO version of the 5000 with a low noise preamp/front end, 50R inputs and 500 MHz bandwidth, all for $500 or so with hacked options.  Maybe throw in the front panel probe power contacts and a reference clock input.   :-DD

The only reason to replace the DS1054Z right now is if its replacement can be made more cheaply using a down-rated version of Phoenix.  Alternatively, they might put an intermediate model just above the DS1054Z (no I don't mean the 1074Z....) and keep both.

 

Online blueskull

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2019, 05:21:40 am »
Why 500MHz? This is a good question to ask in the first place.

A proper 4 channel probing system (>>50R impedance at rated frequency, >40dB SNR) at 500MHz would be at least a grand on its own, so unless you do 50R 1:1 or 500R 10:1 input, otherwise I can't see the reason of having anything above 200MHz.

Even the best passive probe (rest of the Tektronix with proprietary interface) has ~12pF capacitance, so that's 26.5R at 500MHz. Hardly practical.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2019, 06:22:52 am »
The Rigol 1000Z series is quite long in the tooth.   The Siglent 1000XE series is a bit younger but still not really new. 

With them both sort of old, any thoughts/predictions when the manufactures release a next generation??

I’m looking at pulling the trigger on a new scope but would be kicking myself if a next generation came out in the next 6 months.

Sure, and then you'll complain that the firmware isn't finished, that you didn't pay good money to be a beta-tester, etc. and by the time it's all sorted out there'll be a new 'scope available.  :popcorn:
 

Online tautech

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2019, 09:24:23 am »
Yeah, I guess there is the "whole new platform" and then there is the "mid life kicker" upgrade.    Now Im not talking a whole new analog front end etc.   Im talking the digital & ui pieces.

Im leaning heavily towards the Siglent 1104-XE.   Yes its ~$150 more, but it has a better display, deeper memory, quicker ui response times (presumably faster cpu, dual core), the FFT seems actually usable and the bode plot is sort of bonus (but a half baked wip).   

Umm, shame you don't understand what you're looking at as there's currently no other instrument with the capability of the SDS1104X-E FRA/Bode plot short of a spectrum analyser for 3x or more the price.

Have a good look here where it's tested to its limits:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/

For a direct SA comparison see reply #7.

OK you need a compatible AWG to do Bode plots with the 4ch X-E but unlike a SA TG there's a lot more a AWG can be used for.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2019, 09:40:46 am »
Yeah, I guess there is the "whole new platform" and then there is the "mid life kicker" upgrade.    Now Im not talking a whole new analog front end etc.   Im talking the digital & ui pieces.

Im leaning heavily towards the Siglent 1104-XE.   Yes its ~$150 more, but it has a better display, deeper memory, quicker ui response times (presumably faster cpu, dual core), the FFT seems actually usable and the bode plot is sort of bonus (but a half baked wip).   

Umm, shame you don't understand what you're looking at as there's currently no other instrument with the capability of the SDS1104X-E FRA/Bode plot short of a spectrum analyser for 3x or more the price.

The Analog Discovery does, for less cost than the Siglent. 1Hz-10Mhz at 14 bit.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2019, 09:47:15 am »
Even better, back in the old days (circa 20 years ago) we used to use tool composition to do this. That's what GPIB was invented for; making something greater than the sum of its parts. You're pretty stuck if you have a scope with an AWG built in and a hooky built in bode plot and you need to do something outside the venn diagram forced on you.

One reason I bought the DG1022Z and DG1054Z was the possibility of composing those into new tools with a bit of code running on a PC. And that I have done. (plus now it's cracked that's 0-60MHz with calibrated dBm output).
 

Online tautech

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2019, 01:23:44 pm »
Yeah, I guess there is the "whole new platform" and then there is the "mid life kicker" upgrade.    Now Im not talking a whole new analog front end etc.   Im talking the digital & ui pieces.

Im leaning heavily towards the Siglent 1104-XE.   Yes its ~$150 more, but it has a better display, deeper memory, quicker ui response times (presumably faster cpu, dual core), the FFT seems actually usable and the bode plot is sort of bonus (but a half baked wip).   

Umm, shame you don't understand what you're looking at as there's currently no other instrument with the capability of the SDS1104X-E FRA/Bode plot short of a spectrum analyser for 3x or more the price.

The Analog Discovery does, for less cost than the Siglent. 1Hz-10Mhz at 14 bit.
Well I look forward to you grabbing one to do a real job instead of a decent entry level DSO.
Don't forget the additional cost and inconvenience of laptop required on the bench and also take care not to blow the 50V max inputs.

I'm sure they're a fine little tool but a real alternative to a scope for the average Joe ? ? ?

Dave you need more time in front of the 4ch X-E to better understand the real power and features of these great little scopes.
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Offline John_Cavanaugh

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2019, 02:15:54 pm »
Well the consensus seems to be that nothing is "right around the corner" from Rigol or Siglent, so that sort of answers the question on new platform.   Thanks!!

I did take a deeper look at the Rigol MSO5000 series, but as a lot of people mentioned if something is really new it is going to be buggy.   The 5000 is way overkill for what I would need and people were pretty clear that a separate AWG is better than anything built into the DSO.

I took another look at the Keysight EDU model.  While I would love to support Keysight since I worked for years at Agilent and it makes me feel a bit dirty to not buy one, I really need 4 channels and that is a bit too expensive on the Keysight.

So the Siglent 1104X-E is the winner winner chicken dinner for me...
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2019, 02:40:46 pm »
Why 500MHz? This is a good question to ask in the first place.

A proper 4 channel probing system (>>50R impedance at rated frequency, >40dB SNR) at 500MHz would be at least a grand on its own, so unless you do 50R 1:1 or 500R 10:1 input, otherwise I can't see the reason of having anything above 200MHz.

Even the best passive probe (rest of the Tektronix with proprietary interface) has ~12pF capacitance, so that's 26.5R at 500MHz. Hardly practical.

I'm not sure many people would need 500MHz on all 4 channels at once, but I would be able to use it on one or two, even with passive probes.  In passive, I currently have a 100M 100X 4pf 300MHz high voltage probe for 1M inputs and a 500R 10X <1pf 3.5GHz probe for 50R inputs.  Also, the reason I suggested power contacts is to support active probes.  So it isn't a completely far fetched idea.  I can look at 500MHz + now with an analog scope. 
 

Offline jjoonathan

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Re: Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2019, 03:33:48 pm »
They could put the extra ADC horsepower into bits instead of MHz.
 


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