Rigol/Siglent new low end DSO platforms??

[myf]

Hello,

I will buy the Rigol-1054z as first DSO.

However I may hesitate with the Owon xds-3064ae for it's incredible 12 bits ADC.
It seems very much less used and is more expensive (priced at about 600eur or 700eur) than the Rigol at 400eur.

Have a nice day !

F.

[jjoonathan]

I agree that the ADC doesn't limit the bandwidth. What I'm saying is that their in-house ADC can give them an edge in a multitude of other ways. If not MHz, then bits. If not bits, then power -- TDP and battery life. If not TDP and battery life, *then* price. I'm primarily disagreeing with the "only reason" bit.

> The only reason to replace the DS1054Z right now is if its replacement can be made more cheaply using a down-rated version of Phoenix.

[bdunham7]

I agree that the ADC doesn't limit the bandwidth. What I'm saying is that their in-house ADC can give them an edge in a multitude of other ways. If not MHz, then bits. If not bits, then power -- TDP and battery life. If not TDP and battery life, *then* price. I'm primarily disagreeing with the "only reason" bit.

> The only reason to replace the DS1054Z right now is if its replacement can be made more cheaply using a down-rated version of Phoenix.

I was referring to Rigol having a reason to replace the DS1054Z, not us customers having suggestions for improvement.  They don't need an edge--the current model is competitive overall and is selling well for now, I believe.  When it comes to the almighty marketing and sales, TDP is irrelevant (and there is no battery) and so are most of the improvements we dream about --50R inputs, 12 bits, etc. -- are just not needed to SELL an entry level DSO.  However, if they can save $50 per unit in costs, they'll have the new boxes printed up before you can blink.

[jjoonathan]

They had to reduce the price several times over the last few years to keep sales volume up. Those reductions come right out of their margins. That hurts, and it hurts a volume product even worse than a high-margin product. If they want those margins back, they need to refresh the DS1054Z line. They weren't paying $50 for their HMCAD1511s to begin with, so they can't save that with Phoenix, but they can easily get $50 back into the top line -- probably several times that -- by leveraging their new ADC's features in any one of a handful of ways.

[nctnico]

They had to reduce the price several times over the last few years to keep sales volume up. Those reductions come right out of their margins. That hurts, and it hurts a volume product even worse than a high-margin product. If they want those margins back, they need to refresh the DS1054Z line. They weren't paying $50 for their HMCAD1511s to begin with, so they can't save that with Phoenix, but they can easily get $50 back into the top line -- probably several times that -- by leveraging their new ADC's features in any one of a handful of ways.

But the competition is at or almost at the price of the DS1054Z with mature firmware and better features. A new Rigol scope in the low end segment has to be bug free right from the start or insanely cheaper. Most of the sales is just from momemtum and not because the DS1054Z is such a great scope compared to the alternatives.

[jjoonathan]

In the category of new 4-channel 100MHz scopes for sale in the US with shipping included in price, Rigol sure looks like a price-leader to me.

DS1054Z: $350
GDS1054B: $400
SDS1104X-E: $500
Micsig TO1104: $550

Maybe that lineup looks different outside the US, or in the land where 2 channels is OK, or where people haven't heard of the Rigol hack, but regardless, we agree on the fundamental point: DS1054Z desperately needs a refresh.

In the market segment I am familiar with, the prices reflect that fact.

[thm_w]

tinhead found a new siglent 2000 series 10-bit here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-hack-to-200mhz-and-full-options/msg2489568/#msg2489568
But that will probably will be in the MSO5000 price range at $800+.

[2N3055]

500 MHz scopes are not entry level. They have to have 50 path for that frequency (pretty much anything with more than 200 MHz will suck with external terminator). Active probes are also not entry level options.

What would be interesting would be 8 ch 200MHz /1.25 GS/sec per ch (with one 10GS/s AD chip)...
That could be made to be affordable 8ch scope
Not low end though..

[snoopy]

Yeah, I guess there is the "whole new platform" and then there is the "mid life kicker" upgrade.    Now Im not talking a whole new analog front end etc.   Im talking the digital & ui pieces.

Im leaning heavily towards the Siglent 1104-XE.   Yes its ~$150 more, but it has a better display, deeper memory, quicker ui response times (presumably faster cpu, dual core), the FFT seems actually usable and the bode plot is sort of bonus (but a half baked wip).   

Umm, shame you don't understand what you're looking at as there's currently no other instrument with the capability of the SDS1104X-E FRA/Bode plot short of a spectrum analyser for 3x or more the price.

The Analog Discovery does, for less cost than the Siglent. 1Hz-10Mhz at 14 bit.

At what sampling rate does it operate at ? Because it's no use doing a frequency sweep of 0-20KHz of a class-D audio amp with a 500KHz switching frequency with only a 200 Ks/s sampling rate !

cheers

[2N3055]

There is datasheet with all the details..

[JPortici]

500 MHz scopes are not entry level. They have to have 50 path for that frequency (pretty much anything with more than 200 MHz will suck with external terminator). Active probes are also not entry level options.

What would be interesting would be 8 ch 200MHz /1.25 GS/sec per ch (with one 10GS/s AD chip)...
That could be made to be affordable 8ch scope
Not low end though..

Yup, as it also requires a (possibly larger) high resolution screen and a different concept of an user interface if you want your 8 channels scope not to be just 2 4 chan scopes linked and sharing a screen.
No wonder the -not only but basically- only two decent scopes with 6 and 8 channel are from Lecroy and the new Tek platform.
One obvious field of application is three phase motor analysis (or six pahse BLDS) or multiphase converters in general. More complex application could also benefit from having independent time bases between groups of channels but that is completely in another league and probably impossible with a single ADC without a lot of grunt

[Smokey]

Yokagawa made one too
Edit = https://www.valuetronics.com/product/dlm4038-yokogawa-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-used?gclid=Cj0KCQjwgLLoBRDyARIsACRAZe5Fno0EyeEeJrvElotyWv28fFFeOJ_K7iHBn6GLDuF0p4zj8O5wIP4aArvpEALw_wcB

[nctnico]

Yokagawa made one too

What? Your message is too cryptic.

[JPortici]

I'm well aware that yokogawa makes 6 and 8 channel scopes, they have done it since long time. But i can't comment on what the software is capable of.
I have never used a yokogawa with yokogawa firmware. Only those rebadged by lecroy with lecroy's firmware..

[David Hess]

500 MHz scopes are not entry level. They have to have 50 path for that frequency (pretty much anything with more than 200 MHz will suck with external terminator). Active probes are also not entry level options.

500 MHz oscilloscopes may or may not have a dedicated 50 ohm path.  It is still possible to barely get by with an internal switched 50 ohm termination in front of a high impedance buffer at 500 MHz.

[bdunham7]

500 MHz scopes are not entry level. They have to have 50 path for that frequency (pretty much anything with more than 200 MHz will suck with external terminator). Active probes are also not entry level options.

What would be interesting would be 8 ch 200MHz /1.25 GS/sec per ch (with one 10GS/s AD chip)...
That could be made to be affordable 8ch scope
Not low end though..

Well 1GSa/s, 4 channels, intensity-graded display, serial decoding and FFT were not entry level in the not-too-distant past.  But I'm not looking at entry level, but rather one step up from that.  Everyone has their own ideas about what they want next--500MHz w/ 50R inputs, isolated inputs, function generators, bode plots, etc.  I personally would like less 'features' and higher quality, but everyone has their own ideas on what that means.  The things I'm asking for would not be particularly expensive or difficult to implement.

[David Hess]

They could put the extra ADC horsepower into bits instead of MHz.

It costs a lot more to go higher than 8 bits than just the cost of the ADC.  In practice, it means doubling the memory word width to 16 bits either through width or throughput and also doubling the processing requirements.  Rigol went to great pains to maintain 8 bit processing throughout for the highest possible performance.  This is why averaging and high resolution modes produce 8 bit results.

The oldest Tektronix DSOs immediately promote the 8 or 10 bit acquisition record to 16 bits before processing but this comes at the cost of requiring twice as much memory for a given record length and twice as much processing power for the same performance.

[EEVblog]

Well 1GSa/s, 4 channels, intensity-graded display, serial decoding and FFT were not entry level in the not-too-distant past.  But I'm not looking at entry level, but rather one step up from that.  Everyone has their own ideas about what they want next--500MHz w/ 50R inputs, isolated inputs, function generators, bode plots, etc.  I personally would like less 'features' and higher quality, but everyone has their own ideas on what that means.

For less features and higher quality I'd say the Keysight X series. They are just a lot more polished and responsive than other scopes, and IMO easier to use as a daily driver.

[EEVblog]

Yeah, I guess there is the "whole new platform" and then there is the "mid life kicker" upgrade.    Now Im not talking a whole new analog front end etc.   Im talking the digital & ui pieces.

Im leaning heavily towards the Siglent 1104-XE.   Yes its ~$150 more, but it has a better display, deeper memory, quicker ui response times (presumably faster cpu, dual core), the FFT seems actually usable and the bode plot is sort of bonus (but a half baked wip).   

Umm, shame you don't understand what you're looking at as there's currently no other instrument with the capability of the SDS1104X-E FRA/Bode plot short of a spectrum analyser for 3x or more the price.

The Analog Discovery does, for less cost than the Siglent. 1Hz-10Mhz at 14 bit.

At what sampling rate does it operate at ? Because it's no use doing a frequency sweep of 0-20KHz of a class-D audio amp with a 500KHz switching frequency with only a 200 Ks/s sampling rate !

100MS/s at 14 bit
https://reference.digilentinc.com/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/specifications
Oodles for any sort of audio work.