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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Vtech on January 02, 2019, 04:33:59 pm

Title: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Vtech on January 02, 2019, 04:33:59 pm
Here are some photos of RPL1116 Active Logic Probe pod used in MSO1000Z series scope.

Scope has 16 channel logic probe. The probe pod uses 8x LMH7322 (Dual 700ps High Speed Comparator with RSPECL Outputs). 4 comparators on each side. The pod is connected to the scope using 68 pin connector and flat cable. Reference voltage is generated inside the scope.
Cable connector has:
16x2 pins for PECL signals,
22x GND between diff pairs + some extra,
6 pins for VCC
2x2 pins for +/- supply voltage
Some 4 more signals (reference voltage??)


Most likely, the same design is used in new pod for MSO5000 series - PLA2216 Active logic probe. Here are some x-rays of the new pod: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2055715/#msg2055715 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2055715/#msg2055715)
Title: Re: RPL1116 Active Logic Probe pod for 1000Z series teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 02, 2019, 05:15:49 pm
get me some dimensions and i can reproduce the board for everybody.
If i make some preliminary schematics, maybe you can fill in the blanks with a ohm meter ?
Title: Re: RPL1116 Active Logic Probe pod for 1000Z series teardown
Post by: oliv3r on January 02, 2019, 06:41:56 pm
Here's some links to the PLA2216 X-Ray's. Attached is the close-up from the second link :)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2055715/#msg2055715 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2055715/#msg2055715)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2055778/#msg2055778 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2055778/#msg2055778)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2057401/#msg2057401 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2057401/#msg2057401)

So I reccon to rename the topic to add the PLA2216 for the MSO[5789]000 series :)

Was looking at pricing of the LMH73222's and TI says they are 4.35 USD per 1 Ku!  :o
Digikey had them for 8 something a piece!
So with the need of 8, that's 35 to 65 USD! just for the chips
Title: Re: RPL1116 Active Logic Probe pod for 1000Z series teardown
Post by: Mechatrommer on January 02, 2019, 06:44:57 pm
i think it will be useless without the LA daughter board inside, thats where the dso recognize the LA existant, or am i missing something on the newer rigol model?
Title: Re: RPL1116 Active Logic Probe pod for 1000Z series teardown
Post by: TK on January 02, 2019, 08:14:18 pm
Was looking at pricing of the LMH73222's and TI says they are 4.35 USD per 1 Ku!  :o
Digikey had them for 8 something a piece!
So with the need of 8, that's 35 to 65 USD! just for the chips
You can use 4 LMH7324 instead and save some $$
Title: Re: RPL1116 Active Logic Probe pod for 1000Z series teardown
Post by: TopLoser on January 02, 2019, 08:36:59 pm
i think it will be useless without the LA daughter board inside, thats where the dso recognize the LA existant, or am i missing something on the newer rigol model?

The board just contains the comparators, scope is ready and waiting for the digital outputs from the comparators and outputs threshold voltages for the comparators as selected on the scope. I think there’s an input to be pulled low to indicate to the scope that the pod is plugged in. That’s certainly the case with the 5000 series and this looks exactly the same but different pinout and connector.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Vtech on January 02, 2019, 09:22:37 pm
I've changed the topic to include PLA2216 as this is now more desired version. I'm going to do full reverse of RPL1116 including measurement of passives. I hope we can make DIY logic pod for all Rigols.

The board is 4 layer so not exactly cheap to make. To cut the price we can switch to LMH7324 as Oliv3r said (4 would be reqired). Mayby order samples from TI ;D
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TopLoser on January 02, 2019, 09:40:44 pm
madmac posted this about the 50 pin 0.1 pitch good old cheap and cheerful IDC connector:

Had a quick look at the 50 way logic connector while having coffee

0V     X    X    D7P
D7N   X    X    D6P
D6N   X    X    D15P
D15N  X    X    D14P
D14N  X    X    D0V

0V     X    X    D5P
D5N   X    X    D4P
D4N   X    X    D13P
D13N  X    X    D12P
D12N  X    X    0V

0V     X    X    D3P
D3N   X    X    D2P
D2N   X    X    D11P
D11N  X    X    D10P
D10N  X    X    0V

0V     X    X    D1P
D1N   X    X    D0P
D0N   X    X    D9P
D9N   X    X    D8P
D8N   X    X    0V

4V0    X    X    0V
4V0    X    X    2V4
D0-7V X    X    D8-15 VREF   10:1 INPUT  +/- 1V5
-2V5   X    X    0V
0V     X    X    DETECT  LOW FOR PROBE ATTACHED

Input range is +/- 15 volts.

Top of table is power switch on/off side and   lower pin  X   X  upper pin

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2057401/#msg2057401 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2057401/#msg2057401)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on January 03, 2019, 02:36:06 am
Another nice option is that those needing fewer channels can just populate fewer comparators! With that in mind, it might also be possible to create a board with 2 layers only.

Another option for 2 layers would be to increase the size of the PCB if that eases the routing.
Title: Re: RPL1116 Active Logic Probe pod for 1000Z series teardown
Post by: oliv3r on January 03, 2019, 10:41:59 am
i think it will be useless without the LA daughter board inside, thats where the dso recognize the LA existant, or am i missing something on the newer rigol model?

For the DS1000Z series; yeah it's not that usefull ...
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Mechatrommer on January 03, 2019, 10:58:59 am
i think it will be useless without the LA daughter board inside, thats where the dso recognize the LA existant, or am i missing something on the newer rigol model?
For the DS1000Z series; yeah it's not that usefull ...
yes i was talking for DS series (including older DS1000E series) it would be nice to make our own upgrade. but for MSO series i'm not sure why the hacking is needed instead of buying, maybe its too expensive? i dont know. ymmv.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 03, 2019, 02:47:44 pm
The reason this subject is interesting is that the MSO5000 series is trivially upgradeable and even the cheapest one comes with all of the hardware, except for probes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2057338/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2057338/)

I think a lot of us that have an MSO5072 in the mail without the LA option would really like to be able to roll our own LA pod cheaper than what Rigol wants for one, even if performance is a bit more modest.

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Vtech on January 03, 2019, 06:31:21 pm
Reverse engineering of RPL116 completed:D

I've drawn schematic of pod's single channel. Every channel is identical. I've desoldered elements and measured them using RLC meter. The measurements should be quite accurate.

The probe has 3 supply voltages:
VCCO = 2.4 V under load (when pod is connected, no load 2.5 V)
VCCI = 4.0 V (no load 4.1 V)
VEE = -2.4 V (no load -2.5 V)

IN- of channels 1-8 and 9-16 are connected together to common reference voltages delivered by the scope. Reference voltages from the scope are divided by 10 since input attenuator also divides the signal by 10.

There is one mysterious pin which I've named CONF.  It is connected to resistor divider between VCCI and GND (division factor 3/4). It is either some configuration pin so the scope knows that the pod is connected or it is simply measurement of VCCI voltage (now when I think about it, this is more likely the case).

Here is the pinout of the 68 pin connector:

1   GND      35   VEE
2   VEE      36   VCCI
3   VCCI   37   REF9-16
4   NC      38   REF1-8
5   VCCO   39   VCCO
6   VCCO   40   VCCO
7   VCCO   41   VCCO
8   D16Q+   42   D16Q-
9   GND      43   D15Q+
10   D15Q-   44   GND
11   D14Q+   45   D14Q-
12   GND      46   D13Q+
13   D13Q-   47   GND
14   D12Q+   48   D12Q-
15   GND      49   D11Q+
16   D11Q-   50   GND
17   D10Q+   51   D10Q-
18   GND      52   D9Q+
19   D9Q-   53   GND
20   GND      54   GND
21   CONF   55   GND
22   GND      56   GND
23   D8Q+   57   D8Q-
24   GND      58   D7Q+
25   D7Q-   59   GND
26   D6Q+   60   D6Q-
27   GND      61   D5Q+
28   D5Q-   62   GND
29   D4Q+   63   D4Q-
30   GND      64   D3Q+
31   D3Q-   65   GND
32   D2Q+   66   D2Q-
33   GND      67   D1Q+
34   D1Q-   68   GND

Comparing this with TopLoser's findings, looks like the RPL1116 and PLA2216 pods are nearly identical. It should be easy to make a converter to attach RPL1116 to MSO5000 (that's what I'm interested in). Probably, PLA2216 has slightly different input attenuator to allow 200 MHz signals (RPL1116 is rated for 100 MHz).

One more thing - the LMH7332 comparators get pretty hot  - I've measured over 60 C when the pod case was open.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: madmac on January 04, 2019, 10:13:21 am
The LMH7324 is only spec'ed down to 5V VCC. The scope supplies 4V

The other difference is hysteresis is adjustable on the LMH7322 and set to around 15mV. On the LMH7324 it is fixed at 25mV. Should not make much difference unless trying to probe very low logic swings.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Vtech on January 04, 2019, 11:37:01 am
Supply voltage should not be a problem. The scope supplies 4V on VCCI and -2.4V on VEE so total supply voltage is 6.4V for VCCI. Even for VCCO it is 2.4V to ground + 2.4V to VEE so 4.8V in total which should be close enough :).
It would be also possible to use some other, cheaper RSPECL comparators (are there any? Maxim has something) to build lower performance logic probe. These RPL1116 logis probes are a bit over engineered in my opinion. LMH7322 are specified up to 4GHz so quite an overkill for 100MHz probe.

According to datasheet, sampling rate of digital channels on MSO5000 is 1Gsps. 700ps propagation delay on LMH7322 ensures that the sampling time lags no more than 1 clock behind actual data. But this is only for the comparator itself. What about input attenuator and propagation through connector cable and scope's internal circuitry?

MSO5000 datasheet says:
Min. Detectable Pulse Width: 5 ns
Maximum Input Frequency: 200 MHz
Inter-channel Time Delay: 2 ns (typical), 5 ns (maximum)

Am I right that any LVDS comparator should work with RSPECL inputs at this voltage levels (2.4V)?
From LMH7322 datasheet: "When used in combination with a VCCO supply voltage of 2.5V the outputs have LVDS compatible levels."
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: oliv3r on January 08, 2019, 08:14:57 pm
So I took your pics and overlayed them; just for fun and got the following :)
I also added the X-Ray from ian, but it was immediatly obvious, while similar (the chips on the same spots) the traces and mounting holes where fastly different.

(https://gitlab.com/riglol/rigolee/wikis/uploads/e0c7df189ee36d4b3e44633d86ab66d2/probe_layers.png)

As for the 'overratedness' I do think they used the same probe cable in all of their earlier MSO's and use the PLA2216 for all the new high-end scopes. So you would have to look at the specs of the MSO7000 or MS9000 when it arrives what the logic probes will have to endure. And then; it was probably cheaper to do one for all is my guess.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Vtech on January 09, 2019, 09:28:56 am
As for the 'overratedness' I do think they used the same probe cable in all of their earlier MSO's and use the PLA2216 for all the new high-end scopes. So you would have to look at the specs of the MSO7000 or MS9000 when it arrives what the logic probes will have to endure. And then; it was probably cheaper to do one for all is my guess.

MSO7000 uses its own logic probe RPL2316. I can't find exact bandwidth spec of this logic pod but it is probably identical to RPL2216 except for the connector.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: suj on January 09, 2019, 11:25:26 am
MSO7000 uses its own logic probe RPL2316...
My MSO2072A also uses RPL2316 probe. If I remember correctly, they are of the passive type - the comparators are on the oscilloscope PCB.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: helmy on January 16, 2019, 03:40:55 pm
what would happen if we feed a 5v p-p signal using a homemade passive probe into the MSO5000 without the comparators?

also is there anyone working on making their own active probe to use with the MSO5000, and getting it made in china to be sold for cheap?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Vtech on January 16, 2019, 05:50:38 pm
what would happen if we feed a 5v p-p signal using a homemade passive probe into the MSO5000 without the comparators?

The scope would blow up  :-BROKE :-DD At least if there was enough current provided.

Logic pod inputs in MSO5000 accept RSPECL differential signals. Typical levels are Vo-1.1V for high and Vo-1.5V for low line. Since Vo is about 2.4V, H=1.3V, L=0.9V (remember this is differential signal so one line is L and the other is H at the same time).
At this voltage levels it is compatible with LVDS levels so it is possible to use "something" with that type of outputs but you would lose ability to watch negative voltages (not very useful anyway, is anyone still using ECL logic?)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 16, 2019, 08:57:42 pm
I'm in the process of drawing up a LA pod using LMH7324 ICs, I hope to be able to whack it on a 2 layer board and make a couple of units for me and a friend.

I don't have the time to stick it on gitlab right now, but it will end up there when it's a little more complete.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Noy on January 17, 2019, 10:52:12 am
I got 10 samples from ti and will also start of i have a bit more time .
I don't think that a 2 layer board is a good Idea for differential rspecl signals.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 17, 2019, 11:22:22 am
Yeah, 2-layer is not the best, but the differential signals are destined for a long flat ribbon cable anyway, so I doubt a couple of mm on a two layer board will mean anything in comparison.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 17, 2019, 08:22:44 pm
Well, I just took at look at the pinout of LMH7324 and it's a huge bitch to lay out on a two-layer PCB, so I have re-drawn the entire pod using LMH7322.

The complete schematic is now on gitlab, feel free to critique and/or steal it outright:
https://gitlab.com/dren.dk/mso5k-la-pod/tree/master

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: oliv3r on January 17, 2019, 08:27:58 pm
That's looking great! And on gitlab as well :) yay!

One question though, Rigol splits each of those comparators 'far' apart, e.g. on chip1, it's ch0 and 8, on chip2, it's ch1 and 9, right?

Is there any downside to having it like ch0 and ch4; ch1 and ch5. That would indeed allow your plan, to have them split in 2 pods, which has many advantages (cheap bastards can only get the 1 :)

But what does that mean to the backend? Do they have more memory/bandwith if you only use chn 0 - 7. Further more, if you do ch0 - 4 on chip 1, pin-out wise, that would mean that on the UI, it would still be chan 0 - 8; so that could be quite confusing?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 17, 2019, 09:02:27 pm
I had actually not considered the distribution of channels vs. comparators, I have no idea if it matters, but my guess is that it's only a matter of layout.

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Noy on January 17, 2019, 11:15:04 pm
I think its better to build a small but long pod. Put female 50pin straight  connectors in the pcb edge (Pad 1 top, Pad 2 bot, ..).
Then you can Plug it directly in the scope and If you put a second connector in the Others side  you can use jumperwires ...
And If you want, you can use a ribbon cable instead If you use a male header in both pcb sides.
For the cheap guys: Just solder the amount of chips you have/want on the pcb.. You only have to watch out for the correct pin.

Edit:
Why aren't there any protection diodes or others stuff?
Maybe we should add some usb3 (High speed, low capacity) tvs/esd protection diodes?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on January 18, 2019, 01:15:34 am
I can get the 7324 symbol in the KiCad library - should help clean up the project a bit if it's a standard symbol.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 18, 2019, 07:52:47 am
According to the datasheet there's plenty of protection diodes built into the LMH7322, so no external diodes should be needed.

The presence of the input network should be plenty to limit the current in the built-in protection diodes, to the point where you'd have to go seriously nuts to damage anything through a 90k resistor.

Putting the pod directly on the scope is a terrible idea, the whole point of putting the input comparators in the pod is to keep the sensitive single-ended input leads short and get the signals converted to robust LVDS for the long journey through the ribbon cable to the scope.



Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wraper on January 18, 2019, 09:04:16 am
According to the datasheet there's plenty of protection diodes built into the LMH7322, so no external diodes should be needed.
ESD protection is not better than average MCU has.
Quote
The presence of the input network should be plenty to limit the current in the built-in protection diodes, to the point where you'd have to go seriously nuts to damage anything through a 90k resistor.
Not nuts. Spark can easily jump over small resistor. If there are spark gaps on PCB, then it would not happen, though.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 18, 2019, 12:32:04 pm
Hmm, iIt would not be too hard to model the input network in LTSPICE along with the 100 pF + 1k5 resistor needed to simulate a HBM discharge.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-body_model

I have not done any simulation or calculations, but my gut feeling is that the energy that makes it into the device is on the very low end that can easily be handled by the built-in diodes.

Do you want to do the simulation?


Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wraper on January 18, 2019, 12:42:26 pm
HBM is something so low in energy that not even worth considering for finished device IMO. Real discharge often will have over 20kV and higher capacitance.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TK on January 18, 2019, 01:07:13 pm
Remember this is a digital POD, it is not going to take high voltage in.  I have several logic analyzers (HP, Agilent, Zeroplus, saleae) and I have also analyzed the digital input on Agilent 54622D... the only protection they have is the resistor divider (I think it is 10:1, if I remember correctly).  Even the very expensive high end Agilent Logic Analyzers had resistor network at the input of the comparators.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 18, 2019, 01:25:31 pm
How large discharges are logic analyzers typically designed to survive?

I failed to find a rating of the internal protection diodes of the LMH73222 in the datasheet, the closed I got is that the device survives 2.5 kV HBM and 250 V MM, but perhaps a simulation results of those discharges can be used as a bench mark for discharges though the network.

My guess is that someone experienced in the art of test and consumer gear has already done those simulations and possibly even real-world tests and concluded that nothing reasonable would harm the inputs.


Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Vtech on January 18, 2019, 04:20:28 pm
How large discharges are logic analyzers typically designed to survive?

I think you shouldn't plug it directly into mains socket :-DD

Logic analyzers are used in different situations than analog scope probes. You probe some CPU and interface signals not ~kV levels on IGBTs of your 10kW converter. From my experience, input divider of logic pod is enough protection. I've blown several scope probes including high voltage one but never hurt a logic analyzer.

For proper input protection you would need some bigger size resistors (like 1206 at least) and some TVS with breakdown voltage above +-15V and that would be bad for fast signals and signal integrity.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: SilverSolder on January 18, 2019, 04:52:40 pm
How large discharges are logic analyzers typically designed to survive?

Funnily enough, I was just looking at the specs of the 54622D for other reasons...  -   the digital inputs are rated at max +/-40V peak.

The destruction level is probably quite a bit higher than that.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 18, 2019, 09:30:10 pm
I'm starting to lay out the board and I've used relatively agricultural 0603 passives for the layout, because I suspect I'll have to hand-assemble it:)

I'm having a hard time making it work on two layers, so I think I'm about to buckle and go 4-layer, which is a first for me:)

Getting the pitch of ICs down to 10 mm should be easy enough with 4 layers, even when dedicating a whole layer just for ground.

I think the stack should be something like this:

TOP: Signals  (and almost all components)
1: Ground plane
2: Power and jumpers
Bottom: Power, jumpers and decoupling caps.

I like having the ground plane and uninteresting stuff on the inner layers for debugging, but I worry that sticking the ground plane in the middle means that it's much less effective as a heat sink, is that a valid concern?

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: texaspyro on January 18, 2019, 09:35:36 pm

Bottom: Power, jumpers and decoupling caps.


Try to keep all parts on the top layer... it makes it a LOT easier for most people to build.  Double sided components tend not to work well with a home reflow oven.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 19, 2019, 07:59:31 am
for the lmh7322, its easy to pull off 2 layers, It will just be a little wider than the original, Have fun, For the second block, I just duplicated and renamed the references, would probably recommend similar for the other, equally without the silk, you can pack them very close, may just need to nudge the matching networks a tad if you want it as small as possible.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Vtech on January 19, 2019, 09:41:05 am
This layout looks teally nice but I think there will be problems with overheating. Thermal pad is not connected to large plane.
Look at the attached thermal image of Rigol's RPL1116 pad without the case. Chip temperature already above 60degC!
This design (I'm taking about Rerouter's layout) would requires some heatsink glued to the chips.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 19, 2019, 11:43:47 am
That was just to give you an idea on how to do a 2 sided, PCB with all components on 1 side,

The traces can be nudged to get some good via coupling to the VEE pins (-2.5V on the schematic), To the same extent the -2.5V connection to the capactors and similar could be made much thicker to pull some heat with them

At 38C/W, and what reads as about 0.25W of dissipation from the datasheet, I cant see where there is much need for over the top PCB cooling.

Edit:
Part of the extra heating your seeing there is from the ones on the back, Ironically by making it on the same side, the density of the heat sources would be lower.

Edit2: Here is what you could do if you wanted some extra heat sinking.

Edit3: Just to make clear, at this point I have put 0 effort into impedance matching, If you guys need help with it, I would just need to know what board thickness your working towards.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: ebclr on January 19, 2019, 11:13:17 pm
What about to make the board for only one channel, a very tiny board, and use 16 boards connected to one big adaptor board. Will this improve signal integrity since the wire will be differential and less susceptible to noise?

Do this make any sense?

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 19, 2019, 11:24:37 pm
Single channel PCB's would be a bit of a pain due to the common wires between all the channels, meaning at the wiring loom side you would have a proper mess.

8 channel podlets is easy enough, and 4 channel I would probably call the cut-off for wiring mess issues.

Also Third go at it, each channel pair is 12.5 x 22.8mm in size, so 8 channels can be made into a board about 50mm in size, I suppose if you rotated the resistor networks you could scrape back enough room to try and cram both podlets onto a 50 x 50 mm pcb order. but I don't see the point seeing as you generally get 5 or 10 boards per order.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on January 19, 2019, 11:25:27 pm
What size components are these? 0805?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 19, 2019, 11:33:47 pm
0603 and a 0.5mm pitch QFN, If your not used to Kicad, the Red is the Copper pads / traces, the Purple is the solder mask (currently at the default, can easily be trimmed down), and the White is the "courtyard" essentially a spacing guide for components so they are easy for most pick/place machines to use. In general I have found kicads default courtyards are relaxed enough that most people should be able to hand solder them.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: ebclr on January 20, 2019, 01:04:29 am
Interesting tool to make a team PCB, porting to this tool

https://upverter.com/3DgeekStore/c728af4c317fb73e/lmh7322/
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 20, 2019, 01:16:54 am
Link seems to be broken?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: ebclr on January 20, 2019, 01:32:48 am
https://upverter.com/3DgeekStore/   then find for lmh7322/
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: ebclr on January 20, 2019, 01:49:50 am
need one email to be invite to the project collaboration, Tell and I will add
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 20, 2019, 03:56:49 am
Probably my last run for a while on this, All that's left is adding the 50 pin connector, and routing for it. as you only need to route half the channels, it should be easy. I just can't be bothered making the footprint.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on January 20, 2019, 02:52:00 pm
I can help with the footprint. Do we know what sort of connector it is?

I've got a pull request in for the 7324 symbol.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 20, 2019, 07:27:04 pm
2x25 1.27mm pitch, intended for mounting on the edge of the PCB, so 1 row of pins per side of the board

Don't know the exact plug part number.

I suspect this means the PCB is 1.0mm or 0.8mm thick.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on January 20, 2019, 07:41:52 pm
It might be best to look at options that can work with 1.6mm boards as these are cheap for fab houses.

If we start getting off the beaten path, things get expensive pretty fast...

I'll take a look.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: texaspyro on January 20, 2019, 07:45:08 pm
It might be best to look at options that can work with 1.6mm boards as these are cheap for fab houses.

Almost all the cheap fab houses off 0.8-1mm boards for the same price as the 1.6 mm boards.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TopLoser on January 20, 2019, 07:49:22 pm
2x25 1.27mm pitch, intended for mounting on the edge of the PCB, so 1 row of pins per side of the board

Don't know the exact plug part number.

I suspect this means the PCB is 1.0mm or 0.8mm thick.

Are you sure about that? Looks like a good old fashioned 2x25 0.1” pitch connector on the one I’ve got.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on January 20, 2019, 07:53:54 pm
2x25 1.27mm pitch, intended for mounting on the edge of the PCB, so 1 row of pins per side of the board

Don't know the exact plug part number.

I suspect this means the PCB is 1.0mm or 0.8mm thick.

Are you sure about that? Looks like a good old fashioned 2x25 0.1” pitch connector on the one I’ve got.

Oh crap, you're right! Good to know :) 0.6-1.6mm at least for PCBWay is the same price.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 20, 2019, 10:53:39 pm
Could well be. I was working off the xray image. (Dont have the hardware myself)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TopLoser on January 20, 2019, 11:47:54 pm
It’s 2x25 0.1” pitch on the scope, interface lead and pcb take it down to smaller pitch cable so I guess it may well be a 0.05” pitch connector on the active probe pcb...
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 21, 2019, 06:49:01 am
I would base it on the smaller the ribbon the less cumbersome it is to use. A 0.05" ribbon cable for 50 wires is about the size of an IDE hard drive ribbon.

Edit:
Did some checking based on images, its quite clearly using 0.025" or 0.635mm pitch ribbon wire between the scope and pods. Nice and standard, and also reduces the amount of connectors it could be.

So for each pod of 8 channels, there is (ground, 4v, +2.5, -2.5, Vref, 8 differential pairs) at minimum 21 signals, do we want to make these devices purely compatible with what is already in place, or make it designed around 2 seperate 8 channel pods? e.g. have a little breakout board at the scope end to 2 plugs for the pods?

I was thinking something like the Hirose ST40 series connectors, most likely the 24 pin one, but as they don't have prefab cables, Its probably not a good option for a projec tlike this. the scope end is 0.1" 2x25, shall we just make both ends the same? or do we get creative with smaller ribbons or more flexible wiring? by using a little adaptop board that plugs in at the scope?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: madmac on January 21, 2019, 10:32:15 am
In testing the LA input with a LVDS driver I noticed that channel 6 has a lot of crosstalk when unterminated. The remaining lines are all quiet.
It would be good if some else could confirm that it is a layout issue inside the scope not a fault on my unit. To get live update on the LA short pins 1 and 2 (the right most pins) on the 50 way connector and press the LA button. With nothing connected I get this issue.

These pins seem to have a little bit of protection and go directly to one of the ASIC's which I guess is why they are not hot pluggable.

With the SN75LVDS389 connected it works correctly.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 21, 2019, 10:46:03 am
At a glance, some of the differential pairs in the scope are far closer than others,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/44893153125 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/44893153125)

So i could imagine some pairs being more noise effected than others. Not to mention once they disappear into internal layers Its hard to say what happens.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 21, 2019, 09:09:27 pm
I just finished my first stab at the 4-layer + single sided version of the board.

All components are on the top layer along with almost all of the signals.
Layer 2 is a solid ground plane.
Layer 3 is a mostly solid -2.5 V plane for heat sinking, because somone noted that the chips were about 60 degrees in the Rigol pod.
Layer 4 busses the power and other common signals between channels.

I have not yet done anything about the silkscreen, though I might as well just hide all the references and values because there's no room for them:)

The channels will need to be labeled though.

I'm still not entirely happy with the crampedness of parts around the ICs I could only make around 1 mm worth of space there, so any rework is going to be a bitch.

I slapped a 50 pin 0.1" IDC connector on the board because that's what's in the scope and with the size the parts take up there's really no reason to save space there.
The board ended up at 86x62 mm.

I used through hole connectors because I like robustness.

Everything is online here: https://gitlab.com/dren.dk/mso5k-la-pod
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on January 21, 2019, 11:44:18 pm
I would base it on the smaller the ribbon the less cumbersome it is to use. A 0.05" ribbon cable for 50 wires is about the size of an IDE hard drive ribbon.

Edit:
Did some checking based on images, its quite clearly using 0.025" or 0.635mm pitch ribbon wire between the scope and pods. Nice and standard, and also reduces the amount of connectors it could be.

So for each pod of 8 channels, there is (ground, 4v, +2.5, -2.5, Vref, 8 differential pairs) at minimum 21 signals, do we want to make these devices purely compatible with what is already in place, or make it designed around 2 seperate 8 channel pods? e.g. have a little breakout board at the scope end to 2 plugs for the pods?

I was thinking something like the Hirose ST40 series connectors, most likely the 24 pin one, but as they don't have prefab cables, Its probably not a good option for a projec tlike this. the scope end is 0.1" 2x25, shall we just make both ends the same? or do we get creative with smaller ribbons or more flexible wiring? by using a little adaptop board that plugs in at the scope?

I would keep it simple with a 0.1" 50 pin cable. H3DDH-5006G has a polarizing key and a strain relief and is cheap. Then slap a header on the PCB and call it a day. Could even look for shorter versions as well - I've seen some other companies that have them even shorter.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 22, 2019, 01:41:17 am
Well if thats the case. 50 pin scsi cables should fit the bill and come in various lengths.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 22, 2019, 02:50:49 am
It looks nice but the output of the Comparators need to be treated as a diff pair all equal lengths. Also on the rigol pod the inputs all show a ground with the signal so at least 32 pins to the board under test. I do like the 50 pin connector, cheap and simple I was however thinking about the use of an 68 Pin Ultra320 SCSI cable that uses twisted pairs. I am in my spare time creating a board like this for my 5000 series scope.  TI makes a 4 channel version of that IC  LMH7324SQ/NOPB  it may make the board a lot easier to manufacture. at 13~ a lot cheaper too.  8)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TK on January 22, 2019, 03:12:22 am
TI makes a 4 channel version of that IC  LMH7324SQ/NOPB  it may make the board a lot easier to manufacture. at 13~ a lot cheaper too.  8)
I proposed the LMH7324 but it seems to not have all the required features.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/msg2090230/#msg2090230 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/msg2090230/#msg2090230)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 22, 2019, 03:18:01 am
Its more as I was trying 2 layers it would be an utter pain to layout. If 4 layers are in the mix I can give it another spin with the lmh7324's
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 22, 2019, 03:50:50 am
I been reading the data sheet. It looks like i can make it work. What have i got to loose ?
Boards are cheap, parts are cheap, I have a large order i need to send to my Chinese board house so i might as well send in this one,
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 22, 2019, 07:58:13 am
I initially wanted to use the LMH7324 too, but the pin-out does make it a bit harder to use, because the outputs sit on opposite sides and it's not really that much cheaper at the sub-10 pieces end, because with the LMH7322 you get into price breaks twice as fast.

The layout of the 16 channel pod is somewhat cumbersome due to the ordering of signals in the 50 pin connector and the resulting scramble of inputs.

As far as I can tell the pin-out of the 50 pin connector was all dictated by having a dual-sided load in the Rigol pod.

I think I want to do a new design with a 3 board construction:
* Two identical 8 channel pods, with a sane straight-through layout.
* A simple two-sided converter board which unscrambles the 50 pin ordering and provides two 26 pin connectors for twisted pair ribbon cable such as this: https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/Amphenol-Spectra-Strip/132-2801-026?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsJiFh04Lj2rnHfTmy1h2ypJt6bk8ifWw4%3d (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/Amphenol-Spectra-Strip/132-2801-026?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsJiFh04Lj2rnHfTmy1h2ypJt6bk8ifWw4%3d)


There are a couple of nice properties of the split approach:
* It's the way the adults do it, see Tektronix P6418: https://www.google.com/search?q=Tektronix+P6418&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOuZ2a9IDgAhUBjSwKHVVECf8Q_AUIDigB&biw=1920&bih=1077 (https://www.google.com/search?q=Tektronix+P6418&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOuZ2a9IDgAhUBjSwKHVVECf8Q_AUIDigB&biw=1920&bih=1077) or Agilent 54620-61601: https://www.google.com/search?q=Agilent+54620-61601&client=firefox-b-ab&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiz2rL784DgAhWBOSwKHX-sCVIQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1920&bih=1077 (https://www.google.com/search?q=Agilent+54620-61601&client=firefox-b-ab&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiz2rL784DgAhWBOSwKHX-sCVIQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1920&bih=1077)
* The layout of the pod becomes nicer because the ordering of inputs and outputs can be the same.
* Hand-assembly, rework and debugging is easier with two separate pods, I think.
* The two smaller pods with smaller cables are easier and more flexible to use than one 16 channel pod with a large cable.
* If someone decides to make a probe for another scope, then it's very cheap and easy to produce a new converter.

I wanted to use a female 50 pin board mounted connector on the converter board (like this, but ideally edge-mounted: https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/3M-Electronic-Solutions-Division/6850-4500PL?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%252bGHln7q6pm1D%2fu5fPR%252bY0EqgFxb8dXZE%3d (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/3M-Electronic-Solutions-Division/6850-4500PL?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%252bGHln7q6pm1D%2fu5fPR%252bY0EqgFxb8dXZE%3d)), now I'm thinking that having a 10 cm bit of 50 lead ribbon going to the scope might be better due to it possibly being lower physical stress on the scope connector and probably cheaper to make too.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 22, 2019, 08:10:50 am
Well for an 8 channel pod. Feel free to use my 2 layer pcb design. If you have a case in mind i can tweak it.

edit:
Your linked 50 pin connector calls for a 1.6mm PCB,

Edit2: sorry didnt see you where planning on speccing your own loom ribbons, instead of premade assemblies.

Edit3: If your going with custom ribbons to the pods, why not consider the smaller pitch ribbons? really make it a clone of the tek and agilent? It ends up slightly cheaper per foot.
https://au.mouser.com/ProductDetail/3M-Electronic-Solutions-Division/3754-26-300?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsJiFh04Lj2rnGVP%252b060guwueW9iVoIWzc%3d
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 22, 2019, 01:44:12 pm
I certainly do want to use a narrower pitch ribbon cable, the only trouble with that is finding connectors that aren't hugely expensive.

The 3M tripolarized series looks nice but it's spendy.

I wonder if anyone makes ribbon to board transition connectors in 0.025" pitch like these for 0.1": https://katalog.we-online.de/en/em/BHD_2_54_BOARD_TO_CAB_TRANSITION_CONNECTOR_6120XX22323

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 22, 2019, 07:29:02 pm
cable  https://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/10p2-39103.php (https://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/10p2-39103.php)
connector https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/8-5174682-7/8-5174682-7-ND/957333 (https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/8-5174682-7/8-5174682-7-ND/957333)

twisted pair high speed. I am sure better than any flat cable
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Noy on January 22, 2019, 07:42:10 pm
Do we really need such cables?
I think Rigol knows what they are doing...
I thought the main goal was to get a working  equivalent good pod like the original but much more cheaper... Not 350€...
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 22, 2019, 07:59:34 pm
Well its not much different really about 17$ more
for something that IMHO would work better
but please go on with your design with the 50 pin stuff
I am just playing around with my design.
I have never used the tuned line feature in Orcad and want to explore the
feature. This is an excellent opportunity for me to do so.

connectors https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Pcs-IDC-Cable-Connector-FC-50P-50Pin-Female-Header-2-54mm-Pitch/311008750065?epid=1339185073&hash=item486990e9f1:rk:4:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Pcs-IDC-Cable-Connector-FC-50P-50Pin-Female-Header-2-54mm-Pitch/311008750065?epid=1339185073&hash=item486990e9f1:rk:4:pf:0)
   
cable        https://www.ebay.com/itm/1M-3-3Ft-1-27mm-Pitch-50-Pin-Wire-Gray-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-For-2-54mm-FC-Connector-/172341711789 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1M-3-3Ft-1-27mm-Pitch-50-Pin-Wire-Gray-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-For-2-54mm-FC-Connector-/172341711789)

board connectors  https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-50-Pin-IDC-Box-Header-Straight-Angled-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-PCB-FC-Connector/253520275026?hash=item3b06fc6652:m:m-nK827yuu_e05v_eSwju6g:rk:3:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-50-Pin-IDC-Box-Header-Straight-Angled-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-PCB-FC-Connector/253520275026?hash=item3b06fc6652:m:m-nK827yuu_e05v_eSwju6g:rk:3:pf:0)


so 15 ~ bux appx for the 50 pin stuff

17$ for the 68 pin scsi cable 20 bux for the board connectors.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Noy on January 22, 2019, 08:25:52 pm
With the lvds scsi cable you need an additional converter pcb added to the BOM.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: ebclr on January 22, 2019, 09:50:22 pm
What about change Ground plane to top and make GND a heat dissipation plane, those ic's like to be hot
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TK on January 22, 2019, 10:12:46 pm
Well its not much different really about 17$ more
for something that IMHO would work better
but please go on with your design with the 50 pin stuff
I am just playing around with my design.
I have never used the tuned line feature in Orcad and want to explore the
feature. This is an excellent opportunity for me to do so.

connectors https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Pcs-IDC-Cable-Connector-FC-50P-50Pin-Female-Header-2-54mm-Pitch/311008750065?epid=1339185073&hash=item486990e9f1:rk:4:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Pcs-IDC-Cable-Connector-FC-50P-50Pin-Female-Header-2-54mm-Pitch/311008750065?epid=1339185073&hash=item486990e9f1:rk:4:pf:0)
   
cable        https://www.ebay.com/itm/1M-3-3Ft-1-27mm-Pitch-50-Pin-Wire-Gray-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-For-2-54mm-FC-Connector-/172341711789 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1M-3-3Ft-1-27mm-Pitch-50-Pin-Wire-Gray-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-For-2-54mm-FC-Connector-/172341711789)

board connectors  https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-50-Pin-IDC-Box-Header-Straight-Angled-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-PCB-FC-Connector/253520275026?hash=item3b06fc6652:m:m-nK827yuu_e05v_eSwju6g:rk:3:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-50-Pin-IDC-Box-Header-Straight-Angled-Flat-Ribbon-Cable-PCB-FC-Connector/253520275026?hash=item3b06fc6652:m:m-nK827yuu_e05v_eSwju6g:rk:3:pf:0)


so 15 ~ bux appx for the 50 pin stuff

17$ for the 68 pin scsi cable 20 bux for the board connectors.
The IDC connector might be too shallow to fit inside the MSO connector
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 23, 2019, 07:31:43 am
You can't have the ground plane on top, that's where your components live, so very little copper would be left at these densities.

The holes poked in the power planes for vias alone takes out a lot of copper, even with 0.4mm clearance, poking holes for components would make it useless.

You can't connect the heat spreading copper layer to GND, because the bottom pad of the LMH7322 is connected to VEE (-2.5V), but with LMH7324 it's unconnected AFAIR, so you could if you used that in stead.

In my layout I have GND on Layer 2 and -2.5 V on layer 3, so I expect to get much better heat spreading than the original.

The yellow in this screen shot is the GND pour, the -2.5V heat spreading leayer is under that, but it looks almost the same: https://gitlab.com/dren.dk/mso5k-la-pod/blob/master/pcb-complete-in-pcbnew.png
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: 2N3055 on January 23, 2019, 07:56:34 am
SCSI cables are as thick as your thumb, stiff, not bendable, weigh a kilogram, and are pain.
Without being screwed in or locked , they will fall out from connector under it's own weight.
There is a reason why every manufacturer uses flat cables for this. And they are usually very soft and pliable ones.

It would make sense to make it compatible with used LA cables that are available on E-bay for older LA and MSO scopes.

Or just make a flat cable from scope to a small board on user side, that has some kind of transition to hooks, grabbers or whatever you want to use for DUT connection.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 23, 2019, 08:21:00 am
2N3055, care to give some example links,

Its easy to route for whatever connectors are needed, I'm thinking 0.635 / 0.25" pitch ribbon if its possible to the pods, 2x13 is a very nice option for the pods 8 channels with a good number of grounds, or 2x15 if you want every pair separated by a ground. (I personally am leaning towards 2x13, as the buffered differential logic should be the safest signals on the board from crosstalk.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: 2N3055 on January 23, 2019, 08:30:07 am
2N3055, care to give some example links,

Its easy to route for whatever connectors are needed, I'm thinking 0.635 / 0.25" pitch ribbon if its possible to the pods, 2x13 is a very nice option for the pods 8 channels with a good number of grounds, or 2x15 if you want every pair separated by a ground. (I personally am leaning towards 2x13, as the buffered differential logic should be the safest signals on the board from crosstalk.

Sure, for instance: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-HP-10089A-Logic-Woven-Cable-w-Flying-Leads-for-54622D-MSOX2000-MSOX3000/253907595253?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-HP-10089A-Logic-Woven-Cable-w-Flying-Leads-for-54622D-MSOX2000-MSOX3000/253907595253?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144)

With logic pod cables, most pain is on the user side. Many people buy original MSO cables because they  come with nice hooks or grabbers.

Terminating into a small PCB on user side, that has a breakout pins, would make it easy to just get 10 PCBs and keep them permanently connected to DUT. That would make switching scope from DUT to DUT easy, and connecting DUT even easier. You could solder to it, making PCB disposable. You just order 10 more.
Or you can connect PCB to grabbers of your choice (or just arduino style pin connectors) and connect normally.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 23, 2019, 09:55:00 am
Does anyone have a good idea for the scope connector?

I just measured my scope and the depth of the cavity from the front of the scope to the bottom of the connector is just under 15 mm and the front cavity wraps quite tightly around the connector, so I doubt a standard ribbon IDC connector will be able to fit in there.

I'm currently thinking that a 2x25 pin socket with wirewrap pins (or those reinforced long pins as used for pc104) could be a solution.
With the tall socket the board that it connects to would sit flush with the front of the scope and have a couple of SMD connectors for the cables that run to the 8 channel pods, it would probably have to shaped to fit with the contour of the scope, to provide keying, but with a nice black board that would not look all that silly, I think.

Another alternative would be to get a proper keyed connector such as this and edge mount it: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-sockets/6081437/ that way the pcb will be sticking out horizontally, but I can't find a connector that's supposed to be mounted like that.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 23, 2019, 09:56:38 am
Wasn't exactly what I was thinking, could you explain that detail in more detail. As if we can find a source for those grabbers, buy those and terminate them to a 9 pin 0.1" header?  meaning you could have many of those 9 pin plugs read to swap to and from the pods at will??

I should point out the PCB's we are routing are the 8 or 16 channel pods with the ECL comparitors, I can make them pretty small if needed, but they need to be close to the grabbers,
If dual loaded 4 layer was in the mix, then an 8 channel pod pcb with a 0.05" 2x13 header / 0.635mm ribbon to the scope could be shrunk all the way down to 25x30mm, Small is not that hard, But the comparitors are not the cheapest parts to say you want 10 sets, the looms should be.

The other thing with getting this small is finding a good enclosure. I've come across just that many times in the past
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 23, 2019, 10:04:45 am
If you have the exact opening size, we could also shim the PCB a little to ensure the pivot is away from the connector,

Equally that would let us know what we can get away with.
I do feel it will have to be inline soldered, but 50 solder joints is quite a bit of strength, considering that a 1.6mm board has barely any gap,

the shorter we make the breakout PCB, the less torque it will experience, so perhaps we attack it that way, almost 0 length from the first plug to the other 2? 1 plug in, 2 plugs out.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 23, 2019, 10:15:44 am
Sorry I didn't think to measure the opening width and height, but from memory it was just about as tight as the inside of the connector.

BTW. I think our venerable NPN power tranny friend was talking about doing away with probes and in stead connecting the pod to a breakout board with a cheap connector that allows you to solder the breakout board into the DUT you're working on and leave it there when switching to another project.

If we wanted to make the probe breakout boards super cheap, then they use a PCIe card edge connector, though I'd be wary of having that connector directly in the pod as that would be somewhat of a dangerous leaver to have on the presumably short and fragile probe wires that are soldered directly to the DUT.

I doubt PCIe connectors come in IDC ribbon variants, but this looks nice: https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-5-1734857-1.html (https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-5-1734857-1.html)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 23, 2019, 11:18:07 am
Looking into the LMH7324, It doesn't look like its normally stocked, For a 4 layer single side loaded PCB its actually pretty easy to route, more comes down to can anyone even get those chips?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 23, 2019, 11:32:48 am
Huh?
According to octopart lots of places have stock:  https://octopart.com/search?q=LMH7324 (https://octopart.com/search?q=LMH7324)
Mouser certainly has them: https://www.mouser.dk/Search/Refine?Keyword=LMH7324 (https://www.mouser.dk/Search/Refine?Keyword=LMH7324)

Am I missing something?

Oh some other nice things about the LMH7324 is:
* The belly pad is unconnected so it can be tied to the GND plane, which means that I would not need to dedicate a layer to -2.5V
* It doesn't have settable hysteresis, so those two resistors go away, the original hysteresis is about 10 mV and the fixed one of the LMH7324 is about 21-24 mV), I can't see it making any difference.
* It doesn't have the latch feature, so the bus to supply those two logic levels and the resistors to pull them up and down go away too.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: madmac on January 23, 2019, 02:10:05 pm
Do we really need such cables?
I think Rigol knows what they are doing...
I thought the main goal was to get a working  equivalent good pod like the original but much more cheaper... Not 350€...

A low cost solution if you are happy just looking at 3V3 and 5V0 signals is to use a single ended to LVDS driver and an inline resistor to offer a bit of protection.
75LVDS387 for 16 ways (or 8 way 75LVDS389, or 4 way 75LVDS391. The trigger level would not be used. A low drop out regulator can supply the 3V3 rail from the 4V0 supply.
Not for high performance.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on January 23, 2019, 03:34:35 pm
Do we really need such cables?
I think Rigol knows what they are doing...
I thought the main goal was to get a working  equivalent good pod like the original but much more cheaper... Not 350€...

I agree with this.

What is the design goal here?

The nice part, if we are dealing with KiCad, is anyone can design as they wish :) With the open source schematic that has been published, it's now just a few hours of figuring out routing.

For me, it's the price point. Cost of BOM and board (2 layer) would be above anything else. After all, if we approach anywhere near the retail price, you can buy a supported, engineered product direct from Rigol.

Using a cable from DSO to probe lets the board grow in size. It also presents the least risk to the DSO from torque - accidents happen.

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 23, 2019, 06:47:35 pm
I've just measured the cavity the connector on the scope sits in and it's at least 11 mm high, so it's not a problem to fit a regular 50 pin 0.1" pitch IDC ribbon connector in there, if that's your thing.


I had another thought about connecting the pods to the converter board and it struck me that HDMI cables is available everywhere, really cheap, exists in a lot of lengths and there are very thin and flexible models available too.

HDMI has 4 shielded twisted pairs and a bunch of extra wires, so it's perfect for an 4 channel pod, which is the minimum you'd get with a single LMH7324

The overhead of having 4 pods does seem a bit over the top, but getting to use commonly available, cheap and robust cables would be super awesome.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 23, 2019, 08:07:51 pm
Ok, so looks like Ribbon Cable Assemblies are not that expensive for the wiring to the Pods,

https://au.element14.com/samtec/ffsd-13-d-12-00-01-n/cable-assy-26p-idc-rcpt-rcpt-305mm/dp/2856836

Now that leaves 2 options for the breakout board,
1 - Find a cheap source for a 2x25 0.1" ribbon cable about 200mm long, and plug that into the breakout board
2 - make the breakout board plug in directly, but shim the shape so its supported. e.g. 3D printed housing.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on January 23, 2019, 08:45:01 pm
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/assmann-wsw-components/H3DDH-5006G/H3DDH-5006G-ND/1218621 (https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/assmann-wsw-components/H3DDH-5006G/H3DDH-5006G-ND/1218621)

$2.60

I think this is best - minimize risk of damage to scope, logic analyzer pod, or both.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 24, 2019, 09:35:33 am
Yes, it's certainly hard to beat a pre-fab ribbon, just for my own benefit these are the options I see for the scope to-pod-connection:

0: 50 lead 0.1" IDC ribbon connector plug into the scope and run all the way to the 16 ch pod (that's what my already completed 16 ch pod does).

1: 50 lead 0.1" IDC ribbon connector plug into the scope, with a very short ribbon that plugs into the breakout board that allows two tighter (0.025" pitch) 26 lead ribbons to go to two 8 channel pods.

2: Straddle mount a 50 pin female connector on the edge of the breakout board so it can be plugged horizontally into the scope.

3: Use an elevated 50 pin connector to allow the breakout board to sit flush against the front of the scope.


0: Easy to source, not that cheap, but a bit unwieldy with that huge ribbon.
1: Easy to source, but it just feels wrong to have a dongle on the scope like that, it's not an Apple product after all.
2: Somewhat easy to source, could be very cheap if a proper straddle mount connector can be sourced, but a bit harder to do because it requires a collar/case around the board to support it against the fascia of the scope, otherwise it more closely matches Rigols solution.
3: Could be harder to find the exact part, but super compact, cheap and robust with zero risk of putting stress on the scope connector, the board should be designed to fit flush against the front of the scope to key the orientation and the same board could be used for the #1 solution if unable to source the connector.

Samtec makes the connector: ESQ-125-23-L-D: https://www.samtec.com/products/esq (https://www.samtec.com/products/esq) and it's in stock in at least a few places: https://octopart.com/search?q=ESQ-125-23-L-D (https://octopart.com/search?q=ESQ-125-23-L-D)
I like Mouser and though they don't have stock, the lead time is only 5 days, so it's not too bad.

Mpe also makes it, but it seems to be a custom part: 100-2-050-0-NFX-YS0-1844:
https://www.mpe-connector.de/index.php?lang=en&menu=16&id_product=1002&order_code=100-2-050-0-NTX-YS0-2324 (https://www.mpe-connector.de/index.php?lang=en&menu=16&id_product=1002&order_code=100-2-050-0-NTX-YS0-2324)

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 24, 2019, 11:23:57 am
Well it can all be done, all 16 channels in 2.3"x2" of space using the 4 channel devices.
4 layers is mandatory
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 24, 2019, 12:22:10 pm
Looks nice, though I think you need some thermal vias to tie the bottom pad into some heat spreading zones.

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 24, 2019, 12:31:26 pm
wulfman, that is with 0403 passive isn't it? If you even hopped back to a more normal 2x25 0.1" header, that would only make your board a sliver wider, at 2.5" wide.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: madmac on January 24, 2019, 12:53:52 pm
wulfman, that is with 0403 passive isn't it? If you even hopped back to a more normal 2x25 0.1" header, that would only make your board a sliver wider, at 2.5" wide.

Wulfman's layout is for the  RPL1116 Active Logic Probe 68 pin connector.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 24, 2019, 05:01:11 pm
Oh yeah no way finished with it loads more to do   yes thermal vias etc...  but its going well.
I finished the routing but not the entire design. I was tired last night  :D

is the pinout for the 5000 series the same as for the earlier scopes ? if not the small board that plugs into
the scope would be the only thing different from this board to any scopes.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 24, 2019, 07:47:34 pm
No, the mso5k uses a 2x50 0.1" pitch header, the pinout can be seen on the first page of my schematic: https://gitlab.com/dren.dk/mso5k-la-pod

The deci-inch connector pretty much demands a converter board, IMHO.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 24, 2019, 08:13:12 pm
Ok thats the pinout i used on my converter board. I like the 68 pin connectors they use on SCSI III drives as they are easy to get
and reasonable. you can use the flat internal or round external and the diff pairs use twisted pair in the cable.
I still want to use the diff pair equal length routing but setup is not easy since i have never done it before in Orcad.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 24, 2019, 08:21:48 pm
What might make things easier is you have control of the order of the channels. And you only have to length match input to output. Whether its trimmed on the single ended or differential you can match the skew.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 25, 2019, 02:47:37 am
Well diff routing was not hard. here is adapter board to 68 pin cable.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: ebclr on January 25, 2019, 03:35:08 am
Will HDMI or CAT 7 connectors be a good choice to break in 4 channels pods?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 25, 2019, 07:13:18 am
Regarding pod-cabling:
* RJ45 doesn't really work, it's only 4 pairs and that's too little for even a 4 channel pod.
* HDMI could work for a 4 channel pod as there are 4 pairs and a number of extra conductors, but you'd still have a problem if children start plugging monitors into the breakout board, though.

Regarding length matching the LVDS pairs, I don't buy that length matching matters at all, because at 1 GSa/s nobody is going to be able to be able to measure a sub-cm length difference in signal paths.

Looking at the traced near the LA connector in the scope does not reveal any meandering to equalize the quite uneven lengths of traces going to the LA connector, sure, they could do that on an inner layer, but doing that near the connector where there's plenty of room would make more sense to me, so I suspect that it wasn't a consideration at all.

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 25, 2019, 11:12:19 am
Length matching was not my concern as much as impedance matching with the distance between dif traces.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 25, 2019, 11:22:17 am
Ok, it seems like you're aiming for a straddle mount socket for the scope connector, what kind are you using?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Muza on January 25, 2019, 01:41:18 pm
Regarding pod-cabling:
* RJ45 doesn't really work, it's only 4 pairs and that's too little for even a 4 channel pod.
* HDMI could work for a 4 channel pod as there are 4 pairs and a number of extra conductors, but you'd still have a problem if children start plugging monitors into the breakout board, though.


What about full-feature USB 3.1 Type-C cables?
Plenty of shielded data lines and an abundance of cables...

Hopefully some one chimes in on the pin configuration, so that when accidentally plugged into a computer the device just gets ignored.

I kinda like the idea of sleek pods with low profile connectors such as Type-C...
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Muza on January 25, 2019, 03:35:28 pm
A quick'n'dirty render of what I meant. Last number is of course 15, not 16...
Essentially, it does not matter if we decide to use any interim connectors between the scope and the pod, in any case I was planning to 3D print a case and then make a silicone mold of out of it.
Afterwards, casing can be poured in PUR or Polyester molding the idc connector with pcb or idc connector with the flat ribbon cable.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 25, 2019, 06:07:03 pm
Ok, it seems like you're aiming for a straddle mount socket for the scope connector, what kind are you using?

Like this  https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/3M-Electronic-Solutions-Division/9150-4500PL?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%252bGHln7q6pmzuniGC9vGvgdUx8jl58Y%252bI%3d (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/3M-Electronic-Solutions-Division/9150-4500PL?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%252bGHln7q6pmzuniGC9vGvgdUx8jl58Y%252bI%3d)

I am sure they are found cheaper on ebay
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Muza on January 25, 2019, 06:27:57 pm
That's the 3M 9150-4500 Series i used the CAD from
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 25, 2019, 06:33:31 pm
I did look into USB-C, it does have 4 pairs, but it's not keyed and supporting rotation of the connector would be somewhat hard to support the reversible connector.

USB-C also has built in chips that make it harder to abuse for something like this.

Natually it's possible to use the 4 pairs for the data and then implement a proper +5V power supply that generates the +4V, +2V5 and -2V5 rails and to feed the vref through one of the connections, but it's also somewhat hard and not all that elegant.

I think someone who wanted to (ab)use a consumer cable for a 4 channel pod would be best served with HDMI, though pure mini and micro variants don't seem to be very common...
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Muza on January 25, 2019, 07:39:07 pm
That's a valid point regarding the polarity with USB-C... which with correct layout would just mean that two channels would be swapped if inserted "upside-down". Not an ideal case.

Going back to the 50-wire flat ribbon cable: maybe can just stack two narrower ribbons on top of each other to make the connection between the scope and the pod less bulky just like the Rigol RPL2316



Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 25, 2019, 09:33:35 pm
The cable issue is why i like the SCSI III cabling

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Internal-SCSI-Ribbon-Cable-2-Drive-with-LVD-SE-Terminator-32-Inch/161643732466?hash=item25a2b79df2:g:HCkAAOSw34FVCz4Z (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Internal-SCSI-Ribbon-Cable-2-Drive-with-LVD-SE-Terminator-32-Inch/161643732466?hash=item25a2b79df2:g:HCkAAOSw34FVCz4Z)

cut off the extra connector and terminator. 3' cable
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 26, 2019, 10:47:41 am
While I try and figure out how I am going to route the 1.27mm header, here is an 8 Channel pod using LMH7324's,

Not the smallest of things at 41x33mm, and the ribbon is most of that width, but the smaller header / ribbon version is on the todo list.

at a glance it should be possible to make this a 2 layer PCB, but I'm not up for that challenge just yet.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 26, 2019, 12:10:20 pm
And the 1.27mm header version, for a 0.635mm pitch ribbon. This requires a 0.6mm thick PCB to inline the header.

If you want to go more compact than this, it would need to use smaller components, At present I have been working to keep the 0603 minimum as set earlier.

Edit: missed a via, board files have been updated.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: oliv3r on January 26, 2019, 12:25:04 pm
For the cheap guys: Just solder the amount of chips you have/want on the pcb.. You only have to watch out for the correct pin.
I think  you are hitting a good point. I understand where everybody wants to optimizethe design for their own use case. But going with 4 or 8 channel pods for the 'cheap' crowd, makes little sense, as it's far easier to just not get the LMH chips.

Even with the 4 channel chips the same goes :) Cheaper = don't solder the chips.

I think Rigol knows what they are doing...
Do we really think that? I mean that Rigol is knowing what they are doing ;)


In any case, good progress is being made.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 26, 2019, 12:31:09 pm
I was working on 8 channel pods, mainly for ease of routing, they have a wrapped around pin order for a dual side loaded PCB, so if stuck to single side loaded PCB's, its easy to break into 2 logical units, but I am including all the design files. so people are free to edit them to there own requirements.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 26, 2019, 01:30:21 pm
Nice, but 0.6 mm 4 layer boards aren't all that cheap:) Perhaps it's ok to accept normal through hole mount, it's not like the straddle mount is that much smaller.

For me it's more important to be able to hand assemble the first 10 units and rework mistakes than it is to the get to the smallest possible size.     

I've been considering using a 2x8 female socket for the input with half of the pins dedicated to gnd. Probe wires with male ends are easy to find, but the really neat way to interface with that would be a single-use board with male headers that can be soldered to the DUT and left there.

I find I often have to solder wires to the DUT to be able to clip test leads or a scope probe on, so having the interface to the LA be soldering to a board seems like it would cut out the middle man.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 26, 2019, 01:34:32 pm
bwt. rerouter: Nice looking layouts there.

I just did the core of my own 16 channel pod layout with lmh7324 yesterday, everything except connectors fitted nicely in 32x54 mm, even with 4mm of space around the ICs for rework, it's funny how easy it is to route on 4 layers, even when dedicating a whole layer to the ground plane.

I don't think I like the 16 channel pod as an idea at all, for three reasons:
* Pulling all the single-ended input connections together into one location might be tricky.
* Pulling the big fat uplink cable from scope to pod is going to be clunky, even if it is 0.025" pitch.
* Aside from the 68 wire scsi cable idea, sourcing a small amount of 50 wire ribbon cables and connectors is quite hard, while 26 pin 0.025" ribbons are much more accessible.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 26, 2019, 03:48:53 pm
rerouter: I see what you were saying about routing the header for the 0.635 mm pitch ribbon, it's annoying as all hell not being able to put a wire between the pads.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 26, 2019, 10:14:28 pm
As per the 0.6mm 4 layer pcb. I may be able to walk that back to a 2 layer 0.6mm pcb. As the thickness is low enough that the impedance widths are easier.

And yeah differential wiring the header was my nightmare when it wasnt inline. It can be done. But its not that easy and definatly seperates the differential pairs for a bit to ensure they are side by side on the ribbon
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on January 26, 2019, 11:39:27 pm
Just placed my prototype order b board 2 layer was 50 cents each quantity 10, a board 4 layer was 2.90$ each  quantity 10

IF these work as advertised i will upload all the project files to gitlab for all to use. Or i will have 9 extra boards available  :D
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on January 26, 2019, 11:56:56 pm
Here's my take on an 8 channel lmh7324 based pod, highlights:

* Still single-sided load, for ease of assembly with a super-generous courtyard around the QFNs for ease of rework, should it be needed, but at 40x42 mm I don't really think it needs to be any smaller.
* I went with a 26 lead, 1 mm pitch ribbon and IDC connectors towards the scope, because I don't want to deal with the nightmare of laying out the 1.27mm pitch header and 26mm is narrow enough for me:)
* The inputs are via a 2x8 2.54 mm pitch female socket, with half of the pins being ground, that should make it easy to plug in a single-use adaptor board or individual probes, I want to plug in my inputs from the top, but it's just as easy to use the same foot print for an angled header or socket if front-entry is desired.
* I want to laser cut an acrylic sandwich case, which basically requires a hole for a screw in each corner, so the board grew 10 mm in width because of that.
* To use the space between the mounting holes for something I stuck a crude voltmeter on the board in the form of an ATtiny85 and 10 charlieplexed LEDs, so it's fast and easy to verify that the threshold voltage is set correctly.
* The Kicad project is on gitlab here: https://gitlab.com/dren.dk/mso5k-la-pod/tree/master/lmh7324-8ch

Roast my layout:)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on January 27, 2019, 03:16:09 am
Ok, 1.27mm non-inline header done, I'll make up my ribbon breakout board probably tonight.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: oliv3r on February 02, 2019, 10:03:06 am
Beautiful! and really good use of that attiny!! Just 2 question I have.

Why not make it a nice 50 x 50 mm, gives you more room to play with bigger ground cooling plane, and allt hese cheap PCB services houses have their minimum size set to 50 x 50 anyway. Size is probably smallest concern anyway, right?

One question remains, I do not recall the pinout from the scope-end; but do remember the original 2 channel LM's they 'split' the inputs between channel 0 and 8 for the first LM. The second LM goes to 1 and 9 and so on. Now if that's also how the signal enters, then it does not matter I think how you do it.

But with this new redisgn, you will end up with a really odd UI don't you think? So bit 0 - 8 on your probe, will correspond to the odd bits, and 9 - 16 to the even?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on February 02, 2019, 10:56:07 am
That's why the breakout board idea, to remap the channels back to the correct order, 2 layers is a pain for routing crossing differential pairs with decent impedance. So at this point I've drifted to 4 layer
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on February 02, 2019, 12:11:33 pm
I started out making my breakout board in 2 layers, but then I noticed that jlcpcb allows me to panelize two pods and a breakout for 15 usd, which means that I can get 4 layer boards for 20 pods and 10 breakout boards in black for 60 USD, so I'm going with 4 layers for my breakout too.

I've been trying to hit the correct impedance with the stackups offered by jlcpcb and I've taken the time to length match the wires of each pair, but not the inter-pair length.

Seeing that it was possible to route the 1.27mm pitch header, I switched to a 1.27 mm pitch header in smd and that freed up an enormous amount of space which made it much easier to route.

The idea with the breakout is to reorder the pin outs so the channel numbering on the scope fits with the numbering of the pods and channel 0-7 goes on one pod and 8-15 goes on the other

My breakout is designed to sit flat against the front of the scope with a tall female socket on the bottom, but it can also be used with a short cable to the scope.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: oliv3r on February 02, 2019, 02:30:54 pm
ah, right; ok so I really like the breakout board; what connector are you intended to use? I remember there was talk about HDMI cables earlier which make a lot of sense I suppose, but then your short.

I wonder if it would make sense to 'downgrade' to 4 bit pods then. Seeed studio's boards are super cheap even for 4 layers, and if you have 4 bit pods, you still would get 10-ish pods per order (if you use the full 50 x 50 for a pod. If you'd go with 2.5 x 2.5 per pod (very small though) you could put 4 pods on a pcb and thus you'd get 40-ish pods per order!
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on February 02, 2019, 02:49:37 pm
a 8 channel 4 layer pod is only 34x33mm in size, and thats with single layer loading and 0603 components. so you really don't gain anything by going to 4 channel pods.

the breakout board i am currently working on is 65x15mm for reference so far.

there is enough room for 4 pods and 2 breakout boards on a 100x100mm pcb, but that leaves the end user the guillotine them out.

so yep, if you wanted, 20 pcb sets could be had for about $37 posted.

The current ribbon me and dren are working towards are 0.025" or 0.635mm pitch ribbon cable, the same stuff they use on the more professional gear, (very flexible)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: oliv3r on February 02, 2019, 07:13:23 pm
Going to 4 bit pods could not be so much as for size, but price as well of course. And cables. If a HDMI type A connector is used as a cable for example, which has 4 differential pairs if i'm not mistaken. USB-C connector is 24 pins, but unless you put reversing logic in it, I think you effectivily end up with the same amount, 4 differential channels (the other pins would be unused to allow for connector reversal.

If a 4 bit pod would even be smaller (due to the single LM) and cheaper, it's up to members to decide if they want 1 or all 4. Also scale of economics may be achiveable by group-bying the parts 'kickstarter' like or something?
Just a thought is all...
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on February 02, 2019, 10:47:01 pm
All i can say oliv3r is, I have posted my current design files only a few posts ago, the software is free (Kicad) and the layout I have used can be cut in half or doubled, the only thing they would need to do it is fiddle with the output connector, and run there own breakout board for whichever esoteric connectors they please.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Noy on February 03, 2019, 11:12:17 am
Which connectors/cables do you want to use on the DUT side?
I was thinking about using DSlogic shielded fly wires from my DSLogic but there are some passives used in them.
So i have to buy another set of cables and dismount/mount 0Ohms.

Do you have better ideas?
I think the shielding is good for highspeed signals?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: wulfman on February 03, 2019, 08:25:58 pm
I doubt shielded will make a diff most of the wires going to the DUT will not be tightly grouped, just left flying.
Testing will show the truth.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: stj on February 04, 2019, 03:24:34 am
this is all good, but:
does anybody have a link to images of the internal board in the 1000z series scopes?
that really needs to be cloned.

all the teardowns i'v seen where on the 1054z that does not have the function.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on February 06, 2019, 06:30:02 pm
For those working with it, the LMH7324 is now in the official KiCad repository - if you're working off GitHub, just do a git pull to get the latest. If you're not working off GitHub, you should be :)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Noy on March 01, 2019, 04:28:11 pm
Any News here?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on March 01, 2019, 04:34:58 pm
Yep, I received my boards, stencil and all the jellybean parts from jlcpcb on Monday and ordered the expensive parts from Mouser on Tuesday:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MEetU1SV5LrNyh2t5 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/MEetU1SV5LrNyh2t5)

One of the parts in my Mouser order is backordered and it's the one part that I have not managed to find anywhere else:
https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/200-ESQ12523LD (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/200-ESQ12523LD)

BTW, talking over the design with a friend, I ended up sticking a murder of de-coupling 0402 caps on the bottom of the board, because it would be a shame if I left it out and it turned out to be needed.

As soon as I have all the bits I'll fry up a batch and let you know about it.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Noy on March 07, 2019, 12:59:18 pm
Hi, can you please provide your mouser project cart?
Which tolerance class 1% or even better for the resistors?
Which condensator C0G or X7R?
Some of the measured values in the schematic aren't E series..?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on March 07, 2019, 01:15:43 pm
I ordered almost all of the parts from https://lcsc.com (https://lcsc.com) so they could be shipped with my pcbs from https://jlcpcb.com (https://jlcpcb.com).

The Mouser order contained:
https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/926-LMH7324SQ-NOPB (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/926-LMH7324SQ-NOPB)
https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/649-221121-00026T4LF (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/649-221121-00026T4LF)
https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/855-M50-3301342 (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/855-M50-3301342)
https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/200-ESQ12523LD (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/200-ESQ12523LD)

I picked X7R caps and 1% resistors.

I've attached the BOM export from LCSC.

I see now I ordered 200 extra LEDs by mistake, good thing they were so cheap:)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: nimish on March 07, 2019, 10:19:56 pm
I ordered almost all of the parts from https://lcsc.com (https://lcsc.com) so they could be shipped with my pcbs from https://jlcpcb.com (https://jlcpcb.com).

The Mouser order contained:
https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/926-LMH7324SQ-NOPB (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/926-LMH7324SQ-NOPB)
https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/649-221121-00026T4LF (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/649-221121-00026T4LF)
https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/855-M50-3301342 (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/855-M50-3301342)
https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/200-ESQ12523LD (https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/200-ESQ12523LD)

I picked X7R caps and 1% resistors.

I've attached the BOM export from LCSC.

I see now I ordered 200 extra LEDs by mistake, good thing they were so cheap:)

Assuming this works do you plan on assembling these for sale?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on March 08, 2019, 07:26:13 am
That's a hard question.

The raw BOM cost at 10-off numbers is around 100 EUR and that's without hooks and cases.

The sale price a PLA2216 is 300 EUR, so there's certainly room for saving a bit of money, but at low numbers the cost of assembly, shipping and other overhead quickly eats up any savings.

For me it looks as though it's viable to build my own as long as I count the time spent as hobby-time.

If I were to count the time spent as work-time I'd probably have to jump to a production run of at least 1000 units assembled professionally, possibly with custom cases and probes, but that's a huge investment that I have no way of making.

One option to fund the production run would be to set up a kickstarter to ensure the customers are at hand before starting the factory.

Another concern is that I suspect there aren't enough cheapskates with MSO5k scopes in the world that would be willing to plunk down 150 EUR for a knock-off LA probe.

All of this applies to my current design which is more or less a straight clone with a slightly cheaper, but equal performance, comparator chip and the split-pod physical layout.

The connectors and comparators make up 85% of the BOM cost out of that about half is the comparators part.

To make a truly low-cost alternative someone would have to put in the legwork to attack the BOM cost at the expensive end:

1.a: Connector cost could be slashed by finding the parts at the source in .cn in stead of Mouser, I suspect waltzing down to any market and browsing stalls in the pearl river delta would yield massive savings:)
1.b: Another option could be using off-the-shelf consumer cables, but I don't know of any modern standard with 8 LVDS pairs, ground and 4 extra power wires, so that's probably not going to happen.

2: Lower performance comparators must exist, but likely with single-ended output, so one would have to find a cheap LVDS transmitter to pair it with.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: bmx on March 09, 2019, 05:42:47 am
That's exactly what I had in mind since the beginning of this thread: Is the rigol price really high? No sure, considering it comes with ``quality`` hooks.

It's pretty hard to find good hooks that don't cost a finger each.
After initial disassembly of the pod, everyone noticed quality components inside, compact design, etc. I'm not quite sure at all rigol makes profit on those probes. All in all, fpc, board, case, cables, hooks, labels, lead time, packing and shipping, it's not worth it.

Unless someone reports on quality inspection of the rest of the rigol probe (plastic, leads, heat resistance, hooks, ..) as a $5 piece of crap.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: joeyjoejoe on March 09, 2019, 04:02:09 pm
I think the biggest opportunity missed here is the ability to design a simple low cost 4-8 channel version.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on March 13, 2019, 04:47:06 pm
I have just assembled the first set of pods and breakout board: https://photos.app.goo.gl/qMiUNHk9Tk6krjD9A

Holy hell, those 250 parts by hand at 0603 was hard without going insane.

I ended up sticking 48 0402 10 nF caps on the back, so each of the 12 power pins per IC has a super-local decoupling cap.

I still want to play around with a cheaper and lower performance frontend.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: MegaVolt on March 17, 2019, 12:10:28 pm
Input band at the probe 200 MHz. Perhaps changing the input chains can raise this band to 500? Sampling frequency allows.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: felix ch on March 18, 2019, 02:03:37 am
I have just assembled the first set of pods and breakout board: https://photos.app.goo.gl/qMiUNHk9Tk6krjD9A

:clap:
Does it work as you expected?
If so, I'll going to make it.

Thanks for you a lot!
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on March 18, 2019, 08:38:58 am
Not quite.

Good news first:
* I have verified all the output voltages on the breakout board without the pod, so that's nice.
* I have also verified the connections from the breakout to the pod and that there are no shorts.

Then the bad news:
* I fucked up the charlieplexing for two of the LEDs, so that will require either a new board or some bluewires.
* I'm seeing -2.5V on Vref when the pod is plugged into the scope, which should not happen as nothing but high-impedance inputs are connected to Vref and no shorts to any power rail.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on March 22, 2019, 08:20:28 pm
Close inspection of the board file revealed that the problem was that I fucked up and overlapped the -2.5V and +4V zones so they ended up shorted.

The good news is that the MSO5k has a nicely robust set of power supplies for the LA probe, they survived the abuse just fine.

I've created a new board and I'm just waiting for another layout for the same order before sending it out.

The changes are:
* Fixed the Charlie plexing fuckup.
* Fixed the power rail short.
* Moved the parts away from the edge, so there's less risk of damage when depanelizing.
* Wired the ISP tracks out to the panel frame, so it's easy to program without fiddling with the annoying SOIC clip.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: johnmx on March 22, 2019, 08:35:16 pm
Close inspection of the board file revealed that the problem was that I fucked up and overlapped the -2.5V and +4V zones so they ended up shorted.
Always run the Design Rule Check before sending the design for production. Most people don't care about this tool, but I think it is essential.
I am only happy when it returns 0 errors.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thm_w on March 22, 2019, 10:00:27 pm
Always run the Design Rule Check before sending the design for production. Most people don't care about this tool, but I think it is essential.
I am only happy when it returns 0 errors.

Wow, that is wild that people would not care, it should be run as default function when generating gerbers. Of course the best is live DRC, but that is probably much harder to implement software wise.
Good to know it didn't blow the Rigol, but I'm thinking to add some 1A fuses on the 4V/2.5V rails, just in case.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on March 23, 2019, 09:26:17 am
I certainly always run DRC before tapeout, but in this case it generated a single warning that didn't sound dangerous and when I went over the board I could not see any problems at all, so I figured that it was a false positive.

Good thing 4 layer boards are so cheap now, so it's only a 50 USD lesson:)

BTW: Someone warned against having decoupling caps on the bottom of the board because it would be too hard to assemble, but that was really not a problem at all.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: voltsandjolts on March 23, 2019, 09:43:53 am
Maybe they meant it is more hassle for automated assembly and reflow - all components on one side would have to be glued in place?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on March 23, 2019, 09:46:28 am
Well, caps on the bottom get held on with the surface tension of the solder during reflow of the top side, so there's really no reason for glue.

... unless you have very heavy components on the bottom that is.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: felix ch on March 24, 2019, 11:25:19 am
I was noticed you ordering PCB from szjlc.com and soldering it by yourself.
Szjlc provide SMT service for one side parts in chinese. Not for every single part of course, but resistors and capacitors are supported.
I'm not sure if the service is available for you.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on March 24, 2019, 12:09:29 pm
Yeah, I assumed that they would have that service, though I admit I didn't look into it as I assumed that the startup cost would be too high for a single prototype.

I just looked around for it, but I could not find any information on how to submit such an order from the international site, so I think the assembly service is still Chinese-only.

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: johnmx on March 24, 2019, 12:10:22 pm
I was noticed you ordering PCB from szjlc.com and soldering it by yourself.
Szjlc provide SMT service for one side parts in chinese. Not for every single part of course, but resistors and capacitors are supported.
Those SMT services in China are cheap, but there is a catch.
You have to choose if they use their parts or you send the parts to them.
If you send the parts, the shipping cost plus the increase of customs taxes when importing the boards will make the final price too high. So it will be cheaper to assembly by my self.
If they use their parts, the circuit quality will be extremely affected. For sure they will use the cheapest and crappest ceramic capacitors they can find. Probably they will even use counterfeit ICs.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: ebclr on March 25, 2019, 01:52:18 am
What evidence do you have of this assumptions ?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: SilverSolder on March 26, 2019, 08:56:27 pm

I would love an assembly service, even if it was just for the passive components.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on April 03, 2019, 08:38:57 am
I finally received the updated PCBs monday and yesterday we assembled two sets.

There's a photo of the frame just before going into the the oven.

We took a flir image of the board after letting it run a little and it seems the solid ground plane does it's job and is very much needed as the comparators still got up to over 60 degrees even with the copper plane spreading the heat.

Two things of note about the boards and stencil from https://jlcpcb.com/
* One via on one of the pods was disconnected, so we had to run a wire, I checked out a couple of the other boards, but did not find the same problem, so it's certainly not a design problem. Perhaps I'm pushing capabilities by using 0.3 mm via holes and would be better served with 0.4 mm drills and larger pads in future designs.
* I wanted to have alignment holes in the stencil, but for some reason jlcpcb ignored my paste gerbers and produced a stencil from the soldermask, thus handily ignoring my alignment holes that I designed into the stencil, drilling those holes was super fiddly.

I remember reading about the stencil problem, but it slipped my mind when I placed the order; aparently the way to getting the stencil you want from JLCPCB is to order the stencil separately from the PCB with only the paste gerbers in the zip file.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on April 03, 2019, 08:39:48 am
Note also that the scope itself gets quite toasty, I wonder what this will do for the life time.

One of my collaborators is in the process of designing a 3d printed case which will be printed with slightly conductive filament and get lightpipes for the LEDs and a bottom covered by an 1mm silicone sheet.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TK on April 03, 2019, 10:26:56 am
In my opinion the LEDs should be removed from your design, they don't add any information to the end user and can be distracting.  They  might be useful only after assembly if you just want a visual confirmation of the rails being there, but it is adding complexity and power consumption to your design.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on April 03, 2019, 11:06:37 am
I see, good thing we didn't make it for you then.

Beside your personal preference, everything you said is just plain wrong:

0: If someone wanted to build one of these pods, then it would be very easy to leave out the offending parts and the space they take up was added to be able to have proper mounting holes, so there's no disadvantage to removing the option.
1: The LEDs show the current threshold voltage, so it's easy to notice if it has been set incorrectly, without digging down to the appropriate menu on the scope.
2: IOW: the LEDs do not show the power rails are there, but rather make critical information more readily available exactly where it's needed.
3: The added complexity is 2 extra BOM items (LEDs and micro controller, the resistors and the decoupling cap are the same as other items already used) in total it's 10 extra parts, the total number of parts on a pod is around 50.
4: Seeing as how the comparators dissipate enough power to reach 60 degrees, nobody is going to notice the  extra 10 mW taken by the microcontroller and a led.

Now, if I was building a mass-market product, then bean counters might force me to drop the reference-voltmeter option or start optimizing away decoupling caps, but as there is probably never going to be built in more than 5 of these sets, then cost optimization is not at all a priority.

The most important priority is that I build what I want, especially when the cost is basically zero.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TK on April 03, 2019, 12:06:14 pm
The most important priority is that I build what I want, especially when the cost is basically zero.
I was just trying to comment on your design, as you made it public on this forum.  The idea of sharing something in eevblog is to get other's opinions, right?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TK on April 03, 2019, 12:07:59 pm
I see, good thing we didn't make it for you then.

Beside your personal preference, everything you said is just plain wrong:

0: If someone wanted to build one of these pods, then it would be very easy to leave out the offending parts and the space they take up was added to be able to have proper mounting holes, so there's no disadvantage to removing the option.
1: The LEDs show the current threshold voltage, so it's easy to notice if it has been set incorrectly, without digging down to the appropriate menu on the scope.
2: IOW: the LEDs do not show the power rails are there, but rather make critical information more readily available exactly where it's needed.
3: The added complexity is 2 extra BOM items (LEDs and micro controller, the resistors and the decoupling cap are the same as other items already used) in total it's 10 extra parts, the total number of parts on a pod is around 50.
4: Seeing as how the comparators dissipate enough power to reach 60 degrees, nobody is going to notice the  extra 10 mW taken by the microcontroller and a led.

Now, if I was building a mass-market product, then bean counters might force me to drop the reference-voltmeter option or start optimizing away decoupling caps, but as there is probably never going to be built in more than 5 of these sets, then cost optimization is not at all a priority.

The most important priority is that I build what I want, especially when the cost is basically zero.
Your eyes will be 90% looking at the scope anyways and not trying to look at some LEDs blinking on a sea of wires.  At least that is my experience debugging logic circuits.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on April 03, 2019, 12:13:32 pm
That's fair, I probably ended up sounding much more argumentative than I wanted, sorry if that was the case.

The point of the leds is not to blink out information, but to make it clear what the threshold is set at when I'm hooking up the probe, which is especially important and easy to miss if both pods are in use as the two groups of inputs have separate threshold voltages.

The state of the leds only change when changing the threshold voltage, so there should not be any need to stare at them or to get distracted.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TK on April 03, 2019, 12:27:34 pm
Good points about the LEDs and the threshold settings :-+
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: oliv3r on April 09, 2019, 05:13:34 pm
just make sure the leds are dimm enough to not be a distraction; using large resistors to reduce the current to 5mA may be just the solution :) Personally, I like the idea of the LEDS :)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on April 10, 2019, 06:50:44 am
Don't worry about the LED brightness I'm very annoyed by overly bright LEDs myself.

The LEDs used are these ones: https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/Lite-On-LTST-C193TGKT-5A_C12065.pdf

From the datasheet we get a forward voltage of about 2.5-3.1 V, so let's call that 2.8 V and a max current of 20 mA.
The supply to the MCU is the -2.3/2.5 V rails, so that's 4.8 V in total.

I designed with 2x 220 Ohm resistors for a peak current of (4.8V-2.8V) / 440 Ohm = 4.5 mA.

I'm running the LEDs with a fixed rate charlieplex where each LED gets one out of ten PWM periods, so that means that the average current at 100% PWM is 0.45 mA per LED.

As I'm not a fan of bright LEDs I've turned down the PWM to 1/255, which yields an average current of 2 uA

The initial result was too bright, so I upped the resistors to 2x500 Ohm for a peak current of 2 mA and that seems about the right brightness.

I must say I'm very surprised about how much light is yielded by the charlieplexed LEDs even at a crazy low peak current.

We assembled serial number 3 last night, here's the recipient of #3 stuffing 0402 10 nF decoupling caps and swearing a lot.

 #3 ended up working perfectly.

The recipient of #2 is in the process of printing cases for us.

The firmware for the voltmeter is also working perfectly, so after calibration the exact threshold voltage is reflected by the LEDs.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Sprite_tm on April 20, 2019, 09:30:29 am
As a warning for other people that try to DIY this using an LMH7324: there are fakes of this chip on the Chinese market, as I can unfortunately tell you from experience... I built my pod, and 8 of the 16 channels refused to do anything. Luckily, I own an advanced device for looking inside of chip packages (http://j0h.nl/ZM8B) to debug this issue... Seems they forgot to put the actual silicon into half my chips, grmbl. FYI, these come from Taobao; that was the easiest source I could get them from seeing as I live in mainland China.

Images (click to embiggen):
(http://meuk.spritesserver.nl/tmp/tmb-IMG_2476.JPG) (http://meuk.spritesserver.nl/tmp/IMG_2476.JPG)
(http://meuk.spritesserver.nl/tmp/tmb-IMG_2477.JPG) (http://meuk.spritesserver.nl/tmp/IMG_2477.JPG)
(http://meuk.spritesserver.nl/tmp/tmb-IMG_2478.JPG) (http://meuk.spritesserver.nl/tmp/IMG_2478.JPG)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: pmnxis on April 24, 2019, 02:39:47 am
I ordered PCB and parts with following this thread.

Thanks. I will try to assembly and test on my new mso5000.

in my case I spent 150usd more for parts and pcb. but it's interesting and cheaper than pla2216.

BTW I changed some connector and cable assembly for rapid works (there's no stock for connector, so changed little bit)

And I don't have experience about making IDC 1.27 cable by hand. so ordered already made one.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thmjpr on April 28, 2019, 02:23:20 am
Started on the USB C probe idea from Muza giving 4 signals per probe pod, 4 pods total. Schematic is basically straight copy of dren.dk then the connectors were changed out.

Main connector: https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/sullins-connector-solutions/SFH11-PBPC-D25-ST-BK/S9201-ND/1990094 (https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/sullins-connector-solutions/SFH11-PBPC-D25-ST-BK/S9201-ND/1990094) $3
Type C connectors: https://lcsc.com/product-detail/USB-Connectors_Jing-Extension-of-the-Electronic-Co-LCSC-USB-3-1-C-TYPE-DIP-SMTFemale-10-0L-High-temperature_C168698.html (https://lcsc.com/product-detail/USB-Connectors_Jing-Extension-of-the-Electronic-Co-LCSC-USB-3-1-C-TYPE-DIP-SMTFemale-10-0L-High-temperature_C168698.html) $0.50

Board is 1.6mm, ideally would be 2mm to match the header connector pin spacing but JLC just has their cheap impedance controlled board in 1.6 (JLC7628).

In retrospect, HDMI is a much better solution in almost all aspects: you don't have the polarity issue, and proper spec cables are easier to find. Probably why we've seen HDMI on siglent scopes and on CC payment terminals, etc. But, once you realize the quirks of USB-C its not too bad, its just that there are sooo many of them (https://www.reclaimerlabs.com/blog/2017/1/12/usb-c-for-engineers-part-2). Most cables wouldn't work, flipping the cable will of course screw up your channels (if you want to be lazy you can simply mark the "up" end on your cables), and active cables won't pass through our signal or could blow from the voltages we are using.

For finding the right USB cable, what you want is a passive "super high speed" or "USB 3.1 gen 2" or "10Gbps". These, if correct, indicate that all four high speed pairs are wired inside the cable. I bought two cables and it looks like they both are suitable (very surprising given how cheap they were, about 19 wires (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Braided-Aluminum-Shell-USB-Type-C-3-1-Gen2-Cable-USB-C-Male-to-Male-Fast/32943277139.html)! need to be run and cables are hand assembled for the most part). They have the labeling: "VW-1 type 2725", unsure what it refers to (related (http://www.l-com.com.cn/media/catalog/eng_drawings/csusb-cs1.pdf)).

Cable 1: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/30cm-USB-C-USB-3-1-Type-C-Male-Connector-to-Male-Data-Cable-for-Tablet/32825241462.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/30cm-USB-C-USB-3-1-Type-C-Male-Connector-to-Male-Data-Cable-for-Tablet/32825241462.html) $3
Cable 2: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/USB-Type-C-Cable-USB-3-1-Gen2-USB-C-Male-to-Male-Data-Sync-and/32893896190.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/USB-Type-C-Cable-USB-3-1-Gen2-USB-C-Male-to-Male-Data-Sync-and/32893896190.html) $6

First cable is way too short (30cm), I bought it thinking it would be fake/mislabeled, but its not, has all the right pins wired up.
Second cable appears to be very high quality, again same internal wiring. Of course I can't tell the power cable diameter inside or bandwidth of the HS pairs, so quality is purely based on physical feel.

Neither of these cables seem to have the internal 1k pull-down resistor on CC2 line, which I was expecting. Also, all multi-pin connections VBUS/Gnd/etc. are connected internally on the cables. Knowing these two things would have made layout a bit simpler. Shield is internally connected to Gnd as well, no messing around with having that connected in some strange way.
For the CC2 line, basically there are two polarity detection lines, CC1 and CC2. One is connected through the cable and one is not. So based on where that pin ends up, you can determine which one of the four orientations (http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/slyy109/slyy109.pdf) the cable is in.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: gizmo5418 on May 09, 2019, 07:06:01 pm
Hi,

I want to thank you for this great LA project. I successfully made LA to MSO5000. All channels work, but channels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 13, 14, 15 have a negated level, as in the screenshot of the MSO5000. Voltages -2.5V, + 2.5V, + 4V, Vref1, Vref2 are correct. I noticed the same negation of channels in the user's picture dren.dk.
It seems to me that the signals of negated channels in the LA project are reversed - one should introduce a correction on the PCB Breakout..

I am sorry for my English, I use a Google translator.

Regards,
Pawel

Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: pmnxis on May 11, 2019, 05:41:29 am
also i had same issue.

(http://)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: dren.dk on May 15, 2019, 11:03:40 am
Sorry, I fell off the project and just came back to the thread, cool to see that people have actually built the boards!

I just did a basic smoke test and put the project on the shelf, so I never noticed that some channels were inverted, what an embarrassing mistake to make.

I wonder where the error was made, I guess I'll have to do some measuring to figure out where the signal is swapped, but the only way it could be someone elses fault than mine is if it's the pinout I used for the scope.

The best solution would be to redo the breakout board, but it ought to be possible to swap the affected pairs in the cable and put the connector back on.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: pmnxis on May 17, 2019, 07:27:58 am
Thanks for comeback and your participation for made them!.

There's another issue that some channel cannot change state or mixed remarkable noise.
I cannot sure mine was broken while connect cable with wrong angle with short time.
or cable or assemble is strange.
I will try to figure out what was problem
I hope there's no problem on my scope :)

BTW are there any people have same noise issue like me?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: gizmo5418 on May 17, 2019, 11:36:49 am
Hi,

I have noise if I have a "PCB Breakout" attached without connected logic probes.

pmnxis, connecting the ISP programmer at the same time that LA was connected to the oscilloscope was probably not the right solution.
Preservation of my oscilloscope with "PCB Breakout" plugged in without logic probes:
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: pmnxis on May 17, 2019, 07:06:37 pm
thanks for you pictures.
Mine got some "too much" noisy issue on 6th channel when didn't connect cable 0to7 channel.
BTW I solved issue that channel 1ch(start from zero) didn't work.
I was soldering each only one point to 2 bypass capacitor near the MCU.
and re-soldered array capacitor. and then it works.

for now, a left issue is a known issue. some channel is inverted.
hope it would be nice fix later. but I think that's not immediately to me and enough for see extra point for change or triggering something. :D
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thmjpr on May 18, 2019, 03:55:27 am
Can confirm the noise, even with the Logic analyzer completely disconnected, some channels seem to have injected noise and go wild. Wonder if a high value (100k) pull-down on the connector board would help to get rid of that. Seems odd that Rigol would leave it high-z.

Also confirm the original pinout of the connector has many signals flipped (D1, D3, D5, D7, D9, D13, D14, D15), see attached for what it should be. On mine, dumb luck meant I flipped one of the pinouts of the LM7324, so I only have these flipped: D3, D7, D14, D15. I'll think if I want to mod the main board or the pods to fix this.. Once I've done some high speed testing, can send out USBC boards if anyone wants the extras (knowing that you have to do some mods).

Noticed that 2V5 seems to get pulled down a fair bit, with just one pod connected I was reading 2.2V. Not sure what the wire gauge in my USB cables is.
Also if it wasn't clear (because I didn't realize this), the Vref is: -1.5 to +1.5 to represent a -15 to +15V trigger level. How I have it now, the STM32 can only read positive trigger voltages (0 to 1.5V).
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on May 18, 2019, 07:46:47 am
100% certain on D11 and D14? they break the pattern of all the others
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TK on May 18, 2019, 06:24:16 pm
Can confirm the noise, even with the Logic analyzer completely disconnected
By completely disconnected you mean the minimum required for the Scope to detected and activate the logic analyzer, correct?  The microcontroller that was added for the LEDs, is it active when you detect the noise?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thmjpr on May 22, 2019, 05:34:59 am
See attached for 40MHz SPI signal on analog + logic input, seems to work quite well other than a bit of jitter.
One issue is there is a ~150ns offset between the analog channels at the top, and the same digital channel on the bottom. I'm thinking this is worth reporting as a bug.
One possible workaround for this would be adjusting the analog channel offsets, so all are -150ns. But that is a lot so it may not be possible.. will check.

Temperature is 55C on the chip and 45C on the bottom of the board (in open air at 23C). It will get a bit worse inside the case, but would likely be fine without a heatsink.

By completely disconnected you mean the minimum required for the Scope to detected and activate the logic analyzer, correct?  The microcontroller that was added for the LEDs, is it active when you detect the noise?

Yeah thats right, nothing connected to the Rigols 50-pin port at all. Sometimes the LA will run for a bit, even after unplugging the pod (some bug or timing detection). But you can manually short pin 1 to ground too, to enable the LA and test this way as well. I suppose in Rigols design case it doesn't matter, as you either have all channels connected, driving the inputs hard, or not connected and LA disabled on the screen.
Good point about the micro though, I could see it having some effect.

100% certain on D11 and D14? they break the pattern of all the others

It is an odd pattern, and it would make more sense if it was N, P, N, P repeating consistently. Actually now that you mention it, the bit order does have a "logical" pattern: if you skip two pins, it does go from D0, D1 .. to D7, and the same for D8 to D15. At first I thought it was completely nonsensical.

I will go over them again tomorrow now that I've modified my pod to swap D4 and verify the pinout (having the resistor pack made it easier, see photo below).
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thmjpr on May 23, 2019, 05:06:02 am
With the pod now having D1 and D3 flipped, the signals D11 and D14 are still backwards. So they don't match the pattern seen on the other signals. To eliminate all possible sources of error it could be checked manually at the input pins.

Digital to analog delay cant be adjusted with ch-ch skew adjustment. This only delays the analog channel further forward on the x-axis (+/-150ns max). Maybe someone with the official logic pod can verify they see this digital-> analog delay as well. Adding a fixed offset in firmware would be nice, an adjustable offset in the menu even better still.

Channel to channel jitter is OK, I will get a shift back and forth of 1ns on D3, D2, D1 when triggering on D0 for example. Rigol spec is 2ns typical, 5ns maximum. Sample rate is 1GS/s at 200MHz, which all adds up.

Going to print the pod case again, font was too small to show up. Clear color would be cool too, to see the LED inside.
Adapter case coming soon.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on May 23, 2019, 06:29:20 am
Does the Channel - Channel skew line up with your trace lengths, if not we may be able to forward correct for it on a new PCB version.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thmjpr on May 28, 2019, 06:04:42 am
Does the Channel - Channel skew line up with your trace lengths, if not we may be able to forward correct for it on a new PCB version.

The trace lengths were matched to under 1cm or so, speed of signal in FR4 is ~15cm/ns, so 70ps. I can't see it making too much difference, its well under their specifications. The skews sort of just jump around, if I averaged a bunch of captures then I might see the relationship you are referring to.

If we wanted to extend the traces to make up for the 150ns LA->analog delay in the scope, we are talking about 22m of trace! So I'm sure the official Rigol pod does not line up with the analog channels either.

I originally had the case try to duck under the cutout in the rigol scope, but it didn't quite fit. So pulled it forward to be in front instead. The OLED module sits inside that top bezel part.
If you don't need a screen (its not as necessary as I thought because the idle signals will be clearly inverted if the cable is upside down), then removing that top makes it a simpler design.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: Rerouter on May 28, 2019, 08:10:09 am
Ah sorry, misread, though it was digital - Digital skew, I would assume the rigol would have a setting somewhere to adjust digital skew.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: TK on June 07, 2019, 04:09:16 pm
Today I noticed the LA can be activated without the digital probe connected (I don't have one).  What is the purpose of the probe detect on pin 1?

I don't have any noise in the digital channels when the LA is active and there is no probe connected to the scope
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thm_w on June 07, 2019, 10:06:44 pm
Today I noticed the LA can be activated without the digital probe connected (I don't have one).  What is the purpose of the probe detect on pin 1?

I don't have any noise in the digital channels when the LA is active and there is no probe connected to the scope

You get to adjust LA settings and see what is in the menus with nothing connected which is OK. But yeah the software should probably auto-disable the channels from showing up on screen.

The noise will appear as soon as you short pin 1 and 2 together. So the probe detect pin is enabling buffers/inputs, might save some power and reduce noise, assuming its a hardware disable. The calibration menu option is also disabled.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: John_Cavanaugh on June 20, 2019, 04:50:50 am
Any thought on using mini displayport for cables?   They have orientation and same lanes as hdmi.

Cables are pretty cheap.   https://smile.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Mini-DisplayPort-Black/dp/B0777RKTJB/ref=sr_1_8

But I didnt check on the connector prices.    I suspect the usb-c are much cheaper...
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thmjpr on June 24, 2019, 01:20:53 am
Added code for stm32 here: https://gitlab.com/thmjpr/stm32f03_la_monitor (https://gitlab.com/thmjpr/stm32f03_la_monitor)
Will show cable status ("A: -" means A cable not connected, etc.) and the two threshold voltages (0 to +15V).

I have one partial built usbc main board and un-built PCBs if anyone is interested. 3D printing is possible but would cost more for shipping.

BTW there is a SCPI command for LA time offset, :LA:TCALibrate 0.0000002 +/- 200ns but its not working (read back is always 0), suspect in another thread that its not actually been implemented yet.

Any thought on using mini displayport for cables?   They have orientation and same lanes as hdmi.
Cables are pretty cheap.   https://smile.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Mini-DisplayPort-Black/dp/B0777RKTJB/ref=sr_1_8 (https://smile.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Mini-DisplayPort-Black/dp/B0777RKTJB/ref=sr_1_8)
But I didnt check on the connector prices.    I suspect the usb-c are much cheaper...

That would be a good choice. Its also possible to mix it up with mini->normal size cables as those are more common, but $9 is great already and seems robust. Connectors, I see two on digikey for $2-3 each:

https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/2129320-3/A120537CT-ND/5021748 (https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/2129320-3/A120537CT-ND/5021748)
https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/pulse-electronics-network/E9320-001-01/553-3756-1-ND/4169580 (https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/pulse-electronics-network/E9320-001-01/553-3756-1-ND/4169580)
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: jMachina on August 08, 2019, 10:45:53 pm
Wow, I am so glad that I just made this account! Would you be willing to share design files and firmware so I can make a run of PCBs?

Thank you kindly,
jMachina
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thmjpr on August 09, 2019, 05:13:30 am
Wow, I am so glad that I just made this account! Would you be willing to share design files and firmware so I can make a run of PCBs?

Thank you kindly,
jMachina

Thats great. I've added files for revision 1 board here: https://gitlab.com/thmjpr/stm32f03_la_monitor/tree/master/PCB_Rev1

As mentioned in PM, I would recommend going with that and modding the pod PCBs, or getting me to do it. That way you'd have 14 usable channels out of 16, then two inverted. Shipping the extra boards is not expensive. But if you want to wait for Rev2 files that is OK.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thmjpr on September 03, 2019, 06:35:12 am
Revision 2 PCB is here: https://gitlab.com/thmjpr/stm32f03_la_monitor/tree/master/PCB_Rev2

- See readme.md
- A 50 pin connector available from LCSC but has no polarized part in the middle, so could accidentally be plugged in upside down. One polarized version is: SFH11-PBPC-D25-ST-BK (digikey)
- CC1/2 resistor values might need to be played with or voltage measured, can't recall if I used what was on the schematic.

Attached some parts I bought from LCSC but its not the complete BOM, just use for sourcing ideas.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: AngusBeef on September 06, 2019, 06:01:06 pm
I'm a little uncertain reading through this thread - does the logic analyzer you guys designed improve anything off the Rigol design, or is it simply a matter of reducing the $400 price tag off the Rigol product to BOM plus hobby time?
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: spongle on September 06, 2019, 07:22:13 pm
Revision 2 PCB is here: https://gitlab.com/thmjpr/stm32f03_la_monitor/tree/master/PCB_Rev2

- See readme.md
- A 50 pin connector available from LCSC but has no polarized part in the middle, so could accidentally be plugged in upside down. One polarized version is: SFH11-PBPC-D25-ST-BK (digikey)
- CC1/2 resistor values might need to be played with or voltage measured, can't recall if I used what was on the schematic.

Attached some parts I bought from LCSC but its not the complete BOM, just use for sourcing ideas.

This is fantastic, if you have any spare boards / parts you'd like to sell I'm interested.
Title: Re: RPL1116 (MSO1000Z) and PLA2216 (MSO5000) Active Logic Probe teardown
Post by: thmjpr on September 06, 2019, 09:40:49 pm
I'm a little uncertain reading through this thread - does the logic analyzer you guys designed improve anything off the Rigol design, or is it simply a matter of reducing the $400 price tag off the Rigol product to BOM plus hobby time?

Its mostly reducing the price tag. There are some small improvements, like if you want a longer cable you could buy a different length USB-C cable.

This is fantastic, if you have any spare boards / parts you'd like to sell I'm interested.

I have 3x rev 1 bare boards, I don't plan on buying rev2. $4 for just PCBs in a bubble envelope, modding required. Will send a PM for the pre-made board price.