Author Topic: R&S RTC1002  (Read 3450 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
R&S RTC1002
« on: September 17, 2019, 07:12:08 pm »
Hi guys,

I'm new to oscilloscopes and decided to pull the trigger on a new R&S RTC1002 after quite a bit of research. There isn't much info on these available on the internet yet. I was torn between this and a Keysight 1000X. I know the Rigol's are cheaper, but I suppose you can say I have a bias towards German engineering. A couple of the things I liked about the RTC1002 over the Keysight was:

 1: The LAN port for remote viewing/control on a big screen. Who cares about screen size if you can do that? Not available on the 2 channel Keysight.

 2: The component tester.

 3: The ability to upgrade to 300mhz.

 4: The fast boot up time

 5: Made in the Czech Republic in R&S's own quality controlled factory rather than a 3rd party Chinese factory like the Keysight

There's a promotion on now to get the unit fully loaded for only $1900. Which is around $2000 cheaper than if I was to upgrade to all the same features later. It was tempting, but I'm not sure if I need 300mhz, or the MSO feature right now. I do like the signal generator feature, however its only $195 purchased alone. So I will probably order that.

If anyone else has any comments or feedback on this unit please share.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 07:17:07 pm by Mivera »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2380
  • Country: 00
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2019, 09:32:59 pm »
These scopes are based on some old Hameg models from 2011 or so.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2019, 09:42:26 pm »
Yes I read that they bought out Hameg in 2005. They seemed to have a reputation of building quality scopes. I can imagine all manufacturer's latest scopes are improved versions of previous models. Unless of course they just got into the business with a first model.

I forgot to mention in my first post that there is another thing I didn't like about the Keysight. They advertise a minimum vertical scale of 500uV/div. But in reality this is only a software zoom. Yet they fail to mention this in their data sheet. Seems kinda misleading to me. It doesn't mean the actual hardware has a lower noise floor than scopes with a minimum vertical scale of 1mV/div. What I would like to know is the actual noise floor of these scopes. As the data sheets of all of them appear to be devoid of this information.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 09:59:59 pm by Mivera »
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1380
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2019, 10:04:05 pm »
The latest models from Siglent/Rigol are huge redesigns, they are not really a copy of the last generation. They also both come with a 3 year warranty.

Not really sure what the component tester does that you couldn't do with the dual generator outputs on a Rigol (or buy a function generator with the extra $700 you'd have, and a $20 component tester from ebay). Admittedly the Rigol noise floor is not good, so could get a Siglent or even some other device with a higher resolution and lower noise floor.
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2087
  • Country: hr
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2019, 10:14:15 pm »
Don't get siggen. For a bit more you can get standalone AWG with superior specs.
Those scopes a not good deal at all. Buy GW Instek 2000E series instead..
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2019, 10:15:38 pm »
Yes I understand that it's cheaper to produce products in China than in Europe. However my goal wasn't to buy the cheapest scope I could find. It was to buy a quality scope. It beginning to seem clear that this unit isn't popular because there's cheaper options from China. But is there anyone here who's had their hands on both and compared? From what I was reading about the Keysight 1000X vs the Rigol, most said the Keysight was clearly better. And the R&S has all the advantages I listed above over the Keysight.

My main purpose for buying this unit was to test ultra low noise power supplies. And based on what I've read this unit should have a noise floor close to 100uV.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17666
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2019, 10:23:15 pm »
Yes I understand that it's cheaper to produce products in China than in Europe. However my goal wasn't to buy the cheapest scope I could find. It was to buy a quality scope. It beginning to seem clear that this unit isn't popular because there's cheaper options from China. But is there anyone here who's had their hands on both and compared?
The problem is that R&S needs to skimp on mechanical sturdiness to make their low end scopes cheap enough in Europe. The RTB2004 for example doesn't have the input BNCs bolted to the chassis. I don't know any Chinese scope which doesn't have the BNCs bolted down to the chassis so the forces from plugging in cables (or bumping the scope) don't get transferred onto the PCB. Also most of the lower end equipment you can buy from Keysight and Tektronix is made in China.

R&S does make nice scopes but you'd have to start at the RTB2000 or RTM3000 series.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 10:29:02 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2019, 10:33:57 pm »
The RTC1002 is their latest product. And I'm sure they read all the posts, and watched all the videos about the complaints of the RTB2004 shortcomings. So do we know for sure that this is an issue with this model, or is this speculation?

Yes I know most of the low end Keysight and Tektronix units are made in China. One of the perks of the R&S for me is it's built in a factory designed and run by R&S that's only 250km from their main headquarters in Munich. So basically quality control no different than if they were manufactured right in Germany, other than it allows them to compete in this lower end market as labor costs are cheaper once you cross the border.

I would never buy a BMW if it was made in China. But I might buy the same BMW for half the price of a German built BMW if it was made only 250km away from Munich.
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2019, 10:48:44 pm »
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17666
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2019, 10:51:49 pm »
The RTC1002 is their latest product.
It isn't. It is an Hameg scope with a new product name and R&S logo. And I don't get your problem with things made in China. Equipment from GW Instek, Rigol and Siglent is sold by the thousands. If these had bad built quality this forum would be flooded with complaints. But this doesn't happen. These companies have been in business long enough to know how to make quality hardware. Each of these manufacturers is being rebadged by well known brands.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2019, 11:04:48 pm »
Do you have a link to a teardown showing that it's just a rebadged Hameg from 2011?

 What I'm looking for is feedback from folks who have used these machines and compared them with others hands on. Specs of the actual noise floor of this unit and others in the same class would also be helpful. It does appear to be very similar to the favourably reviewed HMO1202 from this video:



However I haven't seen any evidence that there hasn't been any improvements at all to the internal boards. Besides if it's a superior unit to what the competition has available then it doesn't really matter if it's rebadged. Hamag had a very good rep in the oscilloscope business.

Regarding Chinese made products. Yes many of them are great value. However I haven't read a single person say the Rigol or Siglent's 1000 class units are superior to the Keysight 1000x. And as mentioned earlier, I like the above listed advantages the R&S has over the Keysight.

I forgot to mention in my first post, I also like the gold plated BNC connectors, the 128k FFT, and 16 bit high resolution mode.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 11:08:59 pm by Mivera »
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2019, 11:29:49 pm »
Watching that HMO1202 teardown video I can see that the high res mode of it was only 10 bit. Where the RTC1002 has a 16 bit high res mode. I don't think it's possible to add that feature by simply putting a new badge on the case. However the HMO1202 was also not a Hamag scope. The Hamag brand was dissolved before the HMO1202 was released. The actual Hamag scopes had Hamag badges on them. The last Hamag based unit appears to be the HMO 1022:

https://produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/100000-124999/123462-da-01-en-HAMEG_INSTRUMENTS_HMO_1022_OSZILLOSKOP.pdf

Which was yet another generation older, and maxed out at 100mhz. So we are moving ahead by 2 generations of unit's here with the RTC1002. With improvements to each generation. I wouldn't call that re-badging the same product. Let's also keep in mind the base price of the last 2 generations was higher than the base price of the RTC1002.
 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1113
  • Country: us
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2019, 11:38:22 pm »
I don't think anyone is saying there are literally no changes but it's not the same deal as rtb/rtm/rta. They all have 10" screens, ADC's and decent standard memory. The RTC really is likely a new version of the HMO, not an entirely new platform or it'd likely have been very similar to the other 3 newer series.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1380
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2019, 11:43:32 pm »
By far the worst DSO I've ever owned was designed in Germany and made in England. But thats not relevant to anything other than that product  :-+

Watching that HMO1202 teardown video I can see that the high res mode of it was only 10 bit. Where the RTC1002 has a 16 bit high res mode. I don't think it's possible to add that feature by simply putting a new badge on the case. However the HMO1202 was also not a Hamag scope. The Hamag brand was dissolved before the HMO1202 was released. The actual Hamag scopes had Hamag badges on them. The last Hamag based unit appears to be the HMO 1022:

The HMO1002 datasheet states "HiRes up to 16-bit": http://www.testequipmenthq.com/datasheets/Rohde-Schwarz-HMO1002-Datasheet.pdf
edit: they may have added it in a later firmware version.
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2019, 11:47:29 pm »
I don't think it's necessary to do a complete ground up redesign of a platform that's already proven to be competent. It doesn't bother me that the case looks similar to previous generation unit's. What I'm looking for is evidence that other 1000 series scopes are superior to this scope. As in lower noise floor, faster boot up, higher resolution high res mode, better FFT etc. I'm new to scopes altogether, but with my research over the last couple of days I haven't been able to find this evidence. Which was the reason I purchased this unit.
 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1113
  • Country: us
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2019, 11:56:02 pm »
For the price you'd like to think it's better one large issue could be memory at only 2Msamples(1 @ 2 channels) it's pretty low but similar to the Keysight. Personally I wouldn't have a 2 channel scope as my only scope but if it works for you that's good. I think the price is a bit high for what you get but that's my opinion. Depending on where you are the Rigol 5k would have been in same ballpark for price but have more of everything.
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2019, 12:14:58 am »
2 channels are enough for what I'm doing. What I'm looking for is quality, not more of everything. You can buy a full sized Kia for less money than a mid sized BMW. But doesn't mean the Kia is better quality. Knowing the actual noise floor of all of the units would be useful information. Not sure why this isn't in the data sheets.
 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1113
  • Country: us
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2019, 12:20:29 am »
It's because they aren't designed to have a guaranteed noise floor. R&S doesn't specify until you get to the RTA4000 series because if you need a spec you need to pay for the extra work that went into it. Not just specifying and measuring but the entire design. I think Keysight is the same(4k for noise floor specs). Rigol isn't cheap garbage, it's just cheap. They aren't some fly by night company either they've been around a while. I'm sure the RTC is a good scope I just don't think it's worth the $995 starting price.

Your vehicle comparison isn't apt either, since there are way more differences. A scope is mostly the sum of its specs plus a little extra for responsiveness/size. The Rigol literally has all better specs and more features. In this comparison the RTC would be the Kia, and the Rigol the BMW.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 12:23:37 am by maginnovision »
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2019, 12:34:09 am »
Well they will all still have a noise floor. And wouldn't be hard for people to test and share this info when doing reviews.


Even if something has good specs to begin with, if cheap parts such as caps are used, they will drift from spec over time. No matter what the warranty is. Also I've read many times that the Rigol software is very clunky compared to the Keysight and R&S. R&S has been around for 88 years, and they have a reputation for extreme quality. Rigol won't say how long they've been around on their website. If R&S only cared about cost, they would have moved their scope manufacturing to China like others did. But the fact they wanted to keep it close to home for quality control reasons speaks volumes to me.

Regarding the car analogy, the only Kia owners I've ever heard say a BMW is a ripoff is the ones who never drove a BMW. Hopefully some R&S drivers can chime in with their experience at some point.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 12:37:04 am by Mivera »
 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1113
  • Country: us
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2019, 12:48:50 am »
I worked for BMW and have an R&S RTB. You're asking for people to tell you the RTC is something it isn't though. I don't think it's bad but for the price it certainly isn't the best. The noise floor is likely to vary enough to be pointless in specifying even in a review as it only applies to that unit.
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2019, 12:52:03 am »
I know it's not the best. It's their lowest end unit. But I am not seeing things like this in the footnotes of the RTC1002 datasheet like I'm seeing on the Rigol MSO5000 datasheet. To me this is a sign of a high noise floor.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 12:53:59 am by Mivera »
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2019, 12:56:41 am »
Good video here exposing the deception of some other scope brands:

 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1113
  • Country: us
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2019, 01:06:13 am »
No, but you'll find that in some Keysight data sheets too. It's just a design decision not a fatal flaw, unless it is for your needs. It's one of the reasons you can't always compare a to b. When one has something you need and the other doesn't the other things don't matter.
 

Offline Mivera

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2019, 01:11:40 am »
It's really a sign of less capable hardware. But they're crossing their fingers nobody reads the footnotes before buying. If this wasn't the case they would make it clear right in the main specs. They don't mention it at all in the product briefs, or on the websites. You need to dig deep to find the info.

With the RTC1002 you get a true hardware 1mV/div minimum vertical scale. And the reason why is the hardware is simply better. It takes more effort and cost to make lower noise hardware. Especially when you don't have sweatshop workers building the gear for pennies on the dollar.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1380
  • Country: ca
Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2019, 01:19:12 am »
I know it's not the best. It's their lowest end unit. But I am not seeing things like this in the footnotes of the RTC1002 datasheet like I'm seeing on the Rigol MSO5000 datasheet. To me this is a sign of a high noise floor.

Yes as I said already the Rigol noise floor is not good, its optimal for digital use. The thing with having an extra $700 to play with is you could use that money to: get a low noise amplifier or a true 14-bit scope (analog discovery), etc. as companion tools. Or go for a lower noise Siglent.

It's really a sign of less capable hardware. But they're crossing their fingers nobody reads the footnotes before buying. If this wasn't the case they would make it clear right in the main specs. They don't mention it at all in the product briefs, or on the websites. You need to dig deep to find the info.

With the RTC1002 you get a true hardware 1mV/div minimum vertical scale. And the reason why is the hardware is simply better. It takes more effort and cost to make lower noise hardware. Especially when you don't have sweatshop workers building the gear for pennies on the dollar.

ok, I'm done with this thread |O, lets move on guys.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf