Author Topic: R&S RTC1002  (Read 3400 times)

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Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2019, 01:27:46 am »
I'm quite happy with my purchase so far because I like the feature set this unit offers in 1 box. And nobody with hands on experience with the GUI, measurements specs, tear down videos etc, has chimed in with evidence that would cause buyers remorse. But as more of these units sell hopefully we will get more useful feedback.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2019, 03:34:36 am »
Anyways my unit should arrive on Thursday. I’ll learn how to use it and share my experience. I know I don’t have other scopes for reference. But I can still see how good of a power supply this unit is capable of measuring. Which will be useful information for folks building or testing power supplies for high end audio purposes. I have several supplies with between 0.4uV RMS to 500uV RMS ripple noise I can try to test.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 03:36:52 am by Mivera »
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2019, 03:51:22 am »
Sounds good. So video review in 2 weeks? I'd watch it.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2019, 04:08:57 am »
Well I don't think I will have the level of experience in 2 weeks to make a great video review of the unit. Especially without any other machines to compare with it for reference. But I can share some screenshots of the best power supply ripple and noise measurements I'm able to get out of it. I was watching Dave's video here:



And would like to try both of his 2 best techniques to try to get the best measurements. Although I'm going to likely need probe springs and make up some custom test cables.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2019, 04:12:40 am »
Another thing I want is an electronic load. I'm researching them at the moment as well. It would be nice to have something with 1000W capability. But that's looking like it would be big bucks!
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2019, 05:58:53 am »
After a bit of research, it's looking like a quality 1000w electronic load is out of my budget for now. May need to settle on 400W. And it's looking like to buy a proper 400w load without losing any sleep at night, I may need to go this route:


http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2553694.pdf?_ga=2.155303611.1695120267.1568666615-917852215.1568666615&_gac=1.220398252.1568677641.EAIaIQobChMI2_vmycPW5AIVBRitBh2eiQZWEAAYASAAEgJo6PD_BwE
 

Online nctnico

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2019, 09:17:28 am »
Look at GW Instek's PEL3000 DC load series. Not cheap either but at least these have a specified slew rate (a spec missing in the datasheet from the EA-EL load you found).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2019, 10:42:28 am »
What I'm looking for is evidence that other 1000 series scopes are superior to this scope. As in lower noise floor, faster boot up, higher resolution high res mode, better FFT etc.
For a start the KS has 2GSa's sampling and if you think you'll upgrade to 300 MHz this will matter.

Dave explains it well here:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/05/21/eevblog-1213-the-oscilloscope-interpolation-trap/

Regarding high sensitivity front ends you should also watch this:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online nctnico

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2019, 11:02:45 am »
What I'm looking for is evidence that other 1000 series scopes are superior to this scope.
You'll be better off just comparing price versus features. But do keep in mind that the newer models from Rigol and (to a lesser extend) Siglent have bugs in the firmware and may miss some features. In the end the best way is to try several oscilloscopes and see which one suits you the most. Ease of use is never translated well into the datasheet for example.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2019, 12:28:41 pm »
What I'm looking for is evidence that other 1000 series scopes are superior to this scope. As in lower noise floor, faster boot up, higher resolution high res mode, better FFT etc.
For a start the KS has 2GSa's sampling and if you think you'll upgrade to 300 MHz this will matter.

Dave explains it well here:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/05/21/eevblog-1213-the-oscilloscope-interpolation-trap/

Regarding high sensitivity front ends you should also watch this:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/

OP already bought the  scope he wanted in the first place...
Apparently, he never wanted real actual advice based on facts, but he wanted us to confirm his choice.. When we didn't he went with it anyways...

He probably already bought that "great" EA load too , that doesn't even have a single interface on it (not even USB or RS232). They are optional extra. So is the software. Software alone is more than Maynuo 300W load. Fully loaded EA he mentioned will have bigger price then ITECH IT8514C+ which is 240A 1500W load....

Which is OK. His money, his choice. He knows best what he needs or wants..

Me, OTOH is curious about PSU with 0,4uV RMS noise RMS...  :-+ And how you measure that with a 1mV/div 8 bit scope...  :-//

 
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Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2019, 04:29:32 pm »
Seems you need to spend close to $2000 if you don't want a re-branded Chinese load. So I decided to cheap out for now and ordered one of these:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32913653633.html

$270 shipped to my door via DHL express. Regarding the 0.4uV supply, I know I won't be able to measure that with this scope. I was just saying I have supplies with noise that low. I'm hoping I can get useful measurements down to 100uV out of this scope.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2019, 05:07:51 pm »
Here's the load I really want:

https://www.kikusui.co.jp/en/product/detail.php?IdFamily=0113

1000W version. But a bit over my budget at the moment.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2019, 05:15:17 pm »
Here's the load I really want:

https://www.kikusui.co.jp/en/product/detail.php?IdFamily=0113

1000W version. But a bit over my budget at the moment.
Well, buy them from the OEM then. Which is GW Instek. Look at how the PEL3000 series from GW Instek is 99.9% identical.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2019, 05:26:05 pm »
Well that's good to know. A Japanese company that's been around for 60 years doesn't even build their own flagship products. What a shame. What do they just rebrand and warehouse everything?
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2019, 05:34:07 pm »
Here's a video tour of R&S's Vimperk factory where all of their scopes are built. Now that's a proper factory:


https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/vimperk_media/RS_Vimperk_MASTER-FullHD.mp4?w=800&h=600
 

Online nctnico

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2019, 05:38:25 pm »
Well that's good to know. A Japanese company that's been around for 60 years doesn't even build their own flagship products. What a shame. What do they just rebrand and warehouse everything?
They do what every smart manufacturer does: provide a wide variety of equipment to offer one-stop-shopping without needing to design everything from scratch.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2019, 05:41:35 pm »
Well I'd rather buy from the actual manufacturer. Especially if it's half the price. They must assume their clients are stupid. Because only someone stupid would pay double for the same product with a different badge. This makes me feel even better about my R&S purchase. Companies like this are a dying breed.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 05:44:10 pm by Mivera »
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2019, 05:47:36 pm »
I think I'll stick with R&S if I decide I need higher end gear one day.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2019, 05:50:37 pm »
Well I'd rather buy from the actual manufacturer. Especially if it's half the price. They must assume their clients are stupid. Because only someone stupid would pay double for the same product with a different badge. This makes me feel even better about my R&S purchase. Companies like this are a dying breed.
It is not that black & white. Companies like Siglent are competing purely on price and can't afford the support professional customers require because their margins are too thin. You can buy the same equipment from Lecroy with better support. Everybody happy.

BTW: You start to sound like an R&S representive...
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2019, 05:59:05 pm »



BTW: You start to sound like an R&S representive...
[/quote]

I don't think a $2 Billion per year company would need to hire someone like me to come shill for them on a blog forum. I just like companies who build quality gear, all in house, and don't try to deceive people with deceptive specs, rebranding etc. The biggest shame is so many people don't see the value manufacturers like this offer anymore. I manufacturer gear myself. I could choose to outsource to Asia, or re-brand but I don't. And yes it makes my end products more expensive. But it also makes them superior in quality. Not to mention I'm supporting my own country's GDP. Something few care about. Which is why the western world is in the state it is today.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2019, 06:45:38 pm »
Now here's the data I'd like to see published for all scopes. I suppose we can compile our own data. I'll start a new thread after I test the RTC1002. Yes I know every machine might not all get identical performance, but at least we will get a ballpark of what to expect. The R&S 4000 series is sure a drool worthy piece of gear! One day.....
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 06:48:50 pm by Mivera »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2019, 06:49:54 pm »
The biggest shame is so many people don't see the value manufacturers like this offer anymore.
What extra value is there? I don't see it. Why waste money on buying something from a manufacturer who can't compete and needs to recycle old designs as some last ditch attempt? Both R&S and Keysight recycle old, outdated oscilloscope designs to keep their portfolio broad but rebadging would be a much better strategy nowadays. Knowing your limits and so on.

Just look at cars. You can buy the same car from 2 to 4 different brands.

Edit: if you search the forum you can find noise floor numbers for most oscilloscopes.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 06:54:45 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2019, 06:58:23 pm »
If you could provide evidence that there's better quality gear available for less then that argument might carry some weight. But nobody has been able to provide this yet. Also what about component quality? Are the Chinese brands using AEC-Q200 grade MLCC's and resistors? There's loads of 30+ yr old R&S gear still in use and working fine. Can the same be said for Rigol and all the other Asian gear?

Based on the comments I'm hearing on this thread, it's beginning to seem that some folks may have vested interests in gear from other brands. My intention of starting this thread was to get feedback from other R&S owners. But it seems that instead I've attracted supporters of competitive gear. Which would be fine if some evidence could be provided to support the claims.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 07:02:03 pm by Mivera »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2019, 07:41:48 pm »
If you could provide evidence that there's better quality gear available for less then that argument might carry some weight. But nobody has been able to provide this yet. Also what about component quality? Are the Chinese brands using AEC-Q200 grade MLCC's and resistors? There's loads of 30+ yr old R&S gear still in use and working fine. Can the same be said for Rigol and all the other Asian gear?
So you really think R&S is using automotive parts in their lower end test gear? I highly doubt that so please provide proof (and not marketing wank). Perhaps in their higher end gear starting at 5 digits. And the modern R&S gear isn't engineered like the stuff from the 70's and the 80's. It would be way too expensive and R&S wouldn't sell anything at all. Technology moves fast so test equipment gets outdated very quickly. Also over-engineering doesn't help to make a product better for the customer. The lower end gear from Asian manufacturers isn't failing in large quantities either because they would be facing lots of warranty claims and damage to the brand which costs money. And even if the cheaper gear has a shorter lifetime it is probably still cheaper. In the past couple of decades I have never owned/used an oscilloscope until it died. I upgraded to something better with newer features long before that. There is no sense in paying extra for a piece of equipment that may last for 30 years if I only need it for 10 years.

The fact no RTC1000 / Hameg 1000 owners chime in should be a clue to you that very few people buy the low end R&S oscilloscopes. There are a whole bunch of RTB2004 owners and a few with an RTM3004 on their desk (like me) but for these oscilloscopes the value for money is better.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 07:48:38 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2019, 07:48:28 pm »
The probability that R&S is using higher grade components in their gear is much higher than it is with the Chinese manufacturers who don't care as much about long term reliability. And the reason we know that is because R&S has a 90 year proven track record of doing so. Believe it or not but a 90 year track record of excellence carries some value. Amongst the several other points I've mentioned earlier in this thread.

And yes I know the big players like R&S and Keysight have ignored this low end market for years. But recently decided to enter it. The fact that R&S was able to enter this low end market, and still keep all manufacturing in house speaks volumes to me. However most folks buying this grade of gear don't have the proper education to realize why there's a price premium. Especially when there's an internet full of shills promoting the Chinese gear, and trash talking the quality brands.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 07:53:50 pm by Mivera »
 


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