Author Topic: R&S RTC1002  (Read 3441 times)

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Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #75 on: September 18, 2019, 10:27:46 pm »
Ok I misread Maginnovision's post and thought he said Nico sells Sigilant gear. Anyways on forums it's impossible to tell who has vested interests in certain manufacturers. Forums are loaded with shills. This is why hard data is required to carry any weight. Because the world of measurement gear is objective, not subjective. Unless we are talking about ergonomic features of the units. Such as knob placement, screen layouts etc.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #76 on: September 18, 2019, 10:42:05 pm »
Anyways you guys have all voiced your opinion. However I still haven't heard anyone mention an alternative to the R&S that would be able to provide me with better data for my needs at the $975 price point of the RTC1002 or lower. Which is measuring low noise power supplies. And since these are for audio purposes, and humans with perfect hearing can only hear up to 20khz, 50mhz range works fine for my current needs.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #77 on: September 18, 2019, 10:48:14 pm »
I might suggest the SDS 1000X-E series. As far as I know it has a 500uV/div range without software magnification. GW Instek has the 1000 and 2000 which have 1M point FFT which is pretty good. When you get the RTC, IF you decide it doesn't have something you want or need then come back and we can all try to help you find something more suitable or cheaper for your purposes.
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #78 on: September 18, 2019, 11:01:05 pm »
Well it's not just that. I still haven't found anything in the price range that is capable of providing me with better measurement data for my needs. In fact all of the competition goes out of their way to mislead folks into thinking the gear is capable of a true hardware vertical scale of 1mV/div or lower, when in fact it's only fake software zoom. These tactics simply do not reflect excellence in my view.

You should do your homework better. GW Instek scopes have real 1 mV/div, Siglent scopes have real 500 uV per div, etc.

Listen, it's OK for you to make a choice based on your preference. I personally think you are wrong in several of your preferences and would go about this completely different, but you make your own choices.
That is just fine. But please stop making unfounded accusations of conflict of interest.  Only Rob And Rich sell or work for a brand, and they are very open about that.

Rest of us  just wanted to share with you our shared experiences. We have discussion about scopes (and other equipment) on a daily basis, sometimes heated ones, but after a long time we started to converge to several points that we all found common, and we came to the point that people that once had very different opinion had started to agree on some brands and models at certain price points as being best buys at this time. This will change with time but we have came to general consensus about few things.

If you want to benefit from that great. If not, just buy whatever you want. But being abrasive and calling us all names and accusing us of God knows what because we are saying something different than what you think is simply not nice. Lets just agree to disagree and that's it.

So to get this back to constructive discussion. I have Maynuo 9812 load that is working very well.
It doesn't have graphical screen, but it's well made 300W. I can recommend it from personal experience.
They have surprisingly useful Windows software for it, free. It is good price/performance load.

Also there are Itech (OEM for BK Precision), GW Instek (high quality brand actually, also OEM for many manufacturers), and also take a look at UK Aim_TTI  LD400 series loads.

None of these are noname brands, but well respected manufacturers.

 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #79 on: September 18, 2019, 11:03:22 pm »
I might suggest the SDS 1000X-E series. As far as I know it has a 500uV/div range without software magnification. GW Instek has the 1000 and 2000 which have 1M point FFT which is pretty good. When you get the RTC, IF you decide it doesn't have something you want or need then come back and we can all try to help you find something more suitable or cheaper for your purposes.
I second the suggestion. However I think that there is more to measuring low amplitude signals then just having the lowest voltage / div setting. A better setup is to use a differential amplifier to get rid of (most of) the noise injected into the ground of the probe.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2019, 11:10:34 pm »
Anyways you guys have all voiced your opinion. However I still haven't heard anyone mention an alternative to the R&S that would be able to provide me with better data for my needs at the $975 price point of the RTC1002 or lower. Which is measuring low noise power supplies. And since these are for audio purposes, and humans with perfect hearing can only hear up to 20khz, 50mhz range works fine for my current needs.

As I said Siglent SDS1000X-E series has real 500 uV/div range and is low noise. User here, Performa01 made a very comprehensive review of Siglent SDS1104X-E, where he measured many parameters not usually seen in datasheets of big brands...
There are others scopes too that outperform RTC1002....
RTC1002 is nothing special. Really. It is very nice little scope, but should be priced at 300-400 USD.
It is too expensive for what it is.

For very low noise measurement, I use 16 bit / 5MHz scope from Picoscope. It has 8uV RMS noise floor....
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #81 on: September 18, 2019, 11:15:37 pm »
I might suggest the SDS 1000X-E series. As far as I know it has a 500uV/div range without software magnification. GW Instek has the 1000 and 2000 which have 1M point FFT which is pretty good. When you get the RTC, IF you decide it doesn't have something you want or need then come back and we can all try to help you find something more suitable or cheaper for your purposes.
I second the suggestion. However I think that there is more to measuring low amplitude signals then just having the lowest voltage / div setting. A better setup is to use a differential amplifier to get rid of (most of) the noise injected into the ground of the probe.
This! At such a low levels, very measurement will be very complicated, because everything will contribute to errors and interference. With my very low noise Pico, it is hard to connect everything so not inject more interference than you have signal. Shielded boxes, battery powered DUT etc etc...

If you have to work on ready made device, diff amp is sometimes only way to get meaningful result...
 
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Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2019, 11:16:58 pm »
Thanks. The SDS1000X-E does look better than the Rigol's on paper. Although the real time sampling rate is half the speed of the RTC. It's also missing the 16 bit high res mode. It would be nice to know how low the noise actually is. But at only $379 for the SDS1202X-E, it does seem like good value. No matter where it's made. Same with the GW Instek. And both don't have the ability to upgrade to 300mhz if that was ever needed.

 I don't know for me unless the performance and reliability were better for sure, I'm comfortable paying an extra $500 for a genuine R&S product. When the day comes and I need real performance I'll be going with the R&S 4004 anyways. And I'll probably keep the 1002 for other purposes. Maybe even for decades. This is where reliability would pay off. However I would like to know the actual noise floor of those 2 Asian unit's. I'm sure somebody somewhere tested them for this.
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #83 on: September 18, 2019, 11:22:44 pm »
And I know that there's no way I'll be able to get super low noise measurements out of any gear under $1500. I'm just hoping to achieve between 100-200uV.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #84 on: September 18, 2019, 11:33:03 pm »
And I know that there's no way I'll be able to get super low noise measurements out of any gear under $1500. I'm just hoping to achieve between 100-200uV.

Detailed review of SDS1104X-E is here :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371771/#msg1371771

My Picoscope 4264 has 8uV RMS noise floor. It is about 1200 USD.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #85 on: September 18, 2019, 11:42:27 pm »
I took a quick look at SDS1104X-E data as measured by Performa1

at full 100MHz bandwidth and 500uV and 1 mV /div it's noise was approx 65 uV RMS and 360uV P-P.
At 20 MHz limited, it was 28 uV RMS and 150 uV P-P

Those are very, very good results...
 
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Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #86 on: September 18, 2019, 11:52:12 pm »
Looks good. So does the Picoscope. Perhaps I should have just bought the Picoscope. I knew about them and was considering one to use as an audio analyzer at 1 point, however I ended up buying one of these instead for analyzing audio:

http://www.prismsound.com/test_measure/products_subs/dscope_m1/dscope_m1_home.php

Which has extremely low noise (0.6uV). However this is for audio analysis up to 200khz. Not suitable for power supplies.

Thanks for providing this data on the Siglent. I'm hoping the RTC can compete noise floor wise. Otherwise I may end up having buyers remorse.

 
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Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2019, 12:10:45 am »
Has anyone ever measured the noise floor of the Keysight 1000x? There must be some reason people are buying these. I bought the R&S based on comparing it to the Keysight 1000x. And I read quite a bit about the Keysight being a better unit than the Sigilant. Also I admit my research period for scopes was only over a 2 day span before pulling the trigger on the R&S. I used to outsource my measurement work. But now I'm in the process of building an arsenal of gear up so I can do it all locally.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2019, 12:20:01 am »
The 1000X has magnified lower ranges. Like the RTC they're very nice scopes but due to pricing very few recommend them here. Noise floor isn't really a selling point, it's more of... A bonus? I'm not even sure that's true since it usually doesn't come into play. If you really want to measure low noise stuff you NEED amplifiers. Even the best scopes can't measure noise of a DC reference without one, for instance.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 12:21:42 am by maginnovision »
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2019, 12:22:49 am »
Don't you need to use those amplifiers together with a scope? Extremely low noise differential amplifiers seem to cost much more than this scope on their own. Unless I've been looking at the wrong ones.

Let's forget about the price, and talk about the performance only. Let's pretend all of the 1000 series scopes cost exactly the same money. And only discuss what is the best product and why. Because for me whether it costs $500 or $1000 is really a moot point. As it's a very low % of my yearly equipment expenses either way.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 12:25:27 am by Mivera »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2019, 12:46:28 am »
Let's forget about the price, and talk about the performance only. Let's pretend all of the 1000 series scopes cost exactly the same money. And only discuss what is the best product and why. Because for me whether it costs $500 or $1000 is really a moot point. As it's a very low % of my yearly equipment expenses either way.
None of the 1000 series scopes is really good. They are all at the low end and made at a price point. Hop into the >$1000 bracket to get in an area with less compromises.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #91 on: September 19, 2019, 12:56:39 am »
Well the SDS1104X-E has a noise floor over only 28uV with a 20mhz bandwidth. For my purposes that looks really good. I do understand that most of you guys are probably not using scopes for the sole purpose of measuring low noise power supplies like I am. And I understand that if I bought a $5000 differential amplifier probe the noise floor wouldn't be as important. As it would amplify the noise to levels far beyond the noise floor of any scope.  However my goal is the ability to measure the lowest power supply ripple noise possible, for under $2000 total, probe costs and all. And at the same time only buy quality gear that will last many years. If I need to measure under 10uV I can just send the boards out to a lab with $100000+ of gear at their disposal. It's mainly linear regulator boards that drop the noise that low for my purposes. This scope is mainly for measuring the supplies that feed the regulator boards.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #92 on: September 19, 2019, 05:22:13 am »
Mivera, have a look at SDS2202X-E and 2352X-E. Despite being only 2 channels the do offer a little more than the SDS1000X-E models namely 2 GSa/s and 50 ohm inputs.
Then you also match the sampling rate of the KS 1000's but with a heap more memory depth.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #93 on: September 19, 2019, 05:25:23 am »
I had a look at them already. Even though I've already purchased the R&S. However I'm not seeing any specs that would be beneficial to me over the 1000 series. Seems the noise floor is higher, and it doesn't go down to 500mV/div vertical scale. The cost is higher than the R&S which already has 2GSa/s, and I'm not convinced the build quality is higher than the R&S. Especially after watching both the teardown video's of the HMO1202 and the Sigilant 2000 series. The 50ohm mode would be a nice feature, but I believe a simple BNC adapter can enable this as well.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 05:28:45 am by Mivera »
 

Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #94 on: September 19, 2019, 05:34:28 am »
Sorry I was looking at the SDS2202X which costs $1595USD. The SDS2202X-E does look like it has a pretty good feature set and performance for the price point. However I would need to have both it and the R&S RTC1002 for a while to compare before deciding which is the superior machine in the real world for my application.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 05:39:14 am by Mivera »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #95 on: September 19, 2019, 05:36:37 am »
Nope, you're confusing 2000X-E with 2000X, an older but in many ways more capable DSO.
All X-E models offer 500 uV/div whereas 2000X models only 1mV and that's a magnification of 2mV.

https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000x-e/

Sorry I was looking at the SDS2202X which costs $1595USD
:)
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Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #96 on: September 19, 2019, 05:49:47 am »
For many people comparing just the datasheet specs of the 2 units, the Sigilant would be the hands down winner. But as a manufacturer of high end electronic gear I understand the extra cost of high end rotary switches, buttons, connectors, power supply caps etc, as well as manufacturing in Europe in an absolute SOTA facility, compared to China. Then we also have the R&S brand that also carries real value and will add to resale value. So there's much more to a piece of electronic gear than what the data sheets say.

For example I make DAC boards that I could be manufacturing for 1/3rd the cost, and they would measure exactly the same on paper when new. But 10-20 years down the road this won't be the case anymore. People buy my products because they're the types of people who appreciate the extra effort I put into the quality. Many don't and buy Chinese DAC's instead. But those people are not my target client base.

 I realize we live in a disposable world now, but for my use this scope will likely be adequate for decades. If more capability is required for what I'm doing in the future, I'll buy another one.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #97 on: September 19, 2019, 05:56:38 am »
If nothing else your joining here has made you aware of the advances the Chinese have made in the last few years and I for one understand brand loyalties as I once considered Tek as a premium brand and have owned a few of their low cost units in the past. Truth is they don't today have anything that can challenge some of the low cost scopes that are the products of many of the newcomers to this industry.

It is indeed interesting times we live in.
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Offline Mivera

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #98 on: September 19, 2019, 06:03:44 am »
It's no different than DAC's in the high end audio world. The Chinese are making DAC's that measure as good as we can measure, for dirt cheap. However theres other factors that are subjective based that matter for audio that don't matter for measurement gear.

I still don't believe the R&S machines and the Sigilant machines are apples to apples when it comes to build quality. Brand name and manufacturing location aside. The BOM of the RTC1002 will certainly be higher. And it doesn't take much added to the BOM for it to end up adding $500 to the MSRP on electronic gear.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: R&S RTC1002
« Reply #99 on: September 19, 2019, 07:31:27 am »
It's no different than DAC's in the high end audio world. The Chinese are making DAC's that measure as good as we can measure, for dirt cheap. However theres other factors that are subjective based that matter for audio that don't matter for measurement gear.

I still don't believe the R&S machines and the Sigilant machines are apples to apples when it comes to build quality. Brand name and manufacturing location aside. The BOM of the RTC1002 will certainly be higher. And it doesn't take much added to the BOM for it to end up adding $500 to the MSRP on electronic gear.

Well, you will see for yourself.  Lots of us looked long and hard and consensus is that Rigol, Siglent, GW Instek for instance have build quality that matches or sometimes exceeds what first tier name brands are doing in that price / model bracket.

Even cheapest Rigol 1000Z has excellent build quality, and is sturdy little thing. Most complaints are people :
1. Expecting too much.
2. Coming from other equipment, and getting to use to new equipment philosophy
3. Software bugs.
4. Unusual design choices.

Lecroy and Keysight surely didn't have problems putting their name on Siglent and Rigol equipment, both quality and functionally-wise.

For instance, SDS1104X-E has nice 7" screen, it has Zynq 7000 based SOIC for processing (with hardware acceleration for FFT and such), 2X 1 GS/s A/D converters, decent encoders and certainly it's BOM is not cheaper than RTC1002.

If I put my MSOX3104T next to DS1074Z, and go back and forth, twiddling knobs and measuring something, i see difference in U/I speed and such, never at any point Rigol feels cheap. And I used to use it sometimes, because it has 24 MS of memory and can measure long captures better than literally 50x more expensive Keysight, that at some setting drops to as little as 1 Ms memory per ch (even less, 500 kS per ch if you use MSO).  I use DS1074Z very little lately, because I use my other Pico with 512 MS memory for long captures nowadays, but it certainly can outperform 50x more expensive brand name scope for certain tasks.

Regards,
 
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