R&S RTC1002

[Mivera]

Hi guys,

I'm new to oscilloscopes and decided to pull the trigger on a new R&S RTC1002 after quite a bit of research. There isn't much info on these available on the internet yet. I was torn between this and a Keysight 1000X. I know the Rigol's are cheaper, but I suppose you can say I have a bias towards German engineering. A couple of the things I liked about the RTC1002 over the Keysight was:

 1: The LAN port for remote viewing/control on a big screen. Who cares about screen size if you can do that? Not available on the 2 channel Keysight.

 2: The component tester.

 3: The ability to upgrade to 300mhz.

 4: The fast boot up time

 5: Made in the Czech Republic in R&S's own quality controlled factory rather than a 3rd party Chinese factory like the Keysight

There's a promotion on now to get the unit fully loaded for only $1900. Which is around $2000 cheaper than if I was to upgrade to all the same features later. It was tempting, but I'm not sure if I need 300mhz, or the MSO feature right now. I do like the signal generator feature, however its only $195 purchased alone. So I will probably order that.

If anyone else has any comments or feedback on this unit please share.

[Hydrawerk]

These scopes are based on some old Hameg models from 2011 or so.

[Mivera]

Yes I read that they bought out Hameg in 2005. They seemed to have a reputation of building quality scopes. I can imagine all manufacturer's latest scopes are improved versions of previous models. Unless of course they just got into the business with a first model.

I forgot to mention in my first post that there is another thing I didn't like about the Keysight. They advertise a minimum vertical scale of 500uV/div. But in reality this is only a software zoom. Yet they fail to mention this in their data sheet. Seems kinda misleading to me. It doesn't mean the actual hardware has a lower noise floor than scopes with a minimum vertical scale of 1mV/div. What I would like to know is the actual noise floor of these scopes. As the data sheets of all of them appear to be devoid of this information.

[thm_w]

The latest models from Siglent/Rigol are huge redesigns, they are not really a copy of the last generation. They also both come with a 3 year warranty.

Not really sure what the component tester does that you couldn't do with the dual generator outputs on a Rigol (or buy a function generator with the extra $700 you'd have, and a $20 component tester from ebay). Admittedly the Rigol noise floor is not good, so could get a Siglent or even some other device with a higher resolution and lower noise floor.

[2N3055]

Don't get siggen. For a bit more you can get standalone AWG with superior specs.
Those scopes a not good deal at all. Buy GW Instek 2000E series instead..

[Mivera]

Yes I understand that it's cheaper to produce products in China than in Europe. However my goal wasn't to buy the cheapest scope I could find. It was to buy a quality scope. It beginning to seem clear that this unit isn't popular because there's cheaper options from China. But is there anyone here who's had their hands on both and compared? From what I was reading about the Keysight 1000X vs the Rigol, most said the Keysight was clearly better. And the R&S has all the advantages I listed above over the Keysight.

My main purpose for buying this unit was to test ultra low noise power supplies. And based on what I've read this unit should have a noise floor close to 100uV.

[nctnico]

Yes I understand that it's cheaper to produce products in China than in Europe. However my goal wasn't to buy the cheapest scope I could find. It was to buy a quality scope. It beginning to seem clear that this unit isn't popular because there's cheaper options from China. But is there anyone here who's had their hands on both and compared?

The problem is that R&S needs to skimp on mechanical sturdiness to make their low end scopes cheap enough in Europe. The RTB2004 for example doesn't have the input BNCs bolted to the chassis. I don't know any Chinese scope which doesn't have the BNCs bolted down to the chassis so the forces from plugging in cables (or bumping the scope) don't get transferred onto the PCB. Also most of the lower end equipment you can buy from Keysight and Tektronix is made in China.

R&S does make nice scopes but you'd have to start at the RTB2000 or RTM3000 series.

[Mivera]

The RTC1002 is their latest product. And I'm sure they read all the posts, and watched all the videos about the complaints of the RTB2004 shortcomings. So do we know for sure that this is an issue with this model, or is this speculation?

Yes I know most of the low end Keysight and Tektronix units are made in China. One of the perks of the R&S for me is it's built in a factory designed and run by R&S that's only 250km from their main headquarters in Munich. So basically quality control no different than if they were manufactured right in Germany, other than it allows them to compete in this lower end market as labor costs are cheaper once you cross the border.

I would never buy a BMW if it was made in China. But I might buy the same BMW for half the price of a German built BMW if it was made only 250km away from Munich.

[Mivera]

Just found this post:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg2606034/#msg2606034

Would be nice to hear more from @DIPLover about it.

[nctnico]

The RTC1002 is their latest product.

It isn't. It is an Hameg scope with a new product name and R&S logo. And I don't get your problem with things made in China. Equipment from GW Instek, Rigol and Siglent is sold by the thousands. If these had bad built quality this forum would be flooded with complaints. But this doesn't happen. These companies have been in business long enough to know how to make quality hardware. Each of these manufacturers is being rebadged by well known brands.

[Mivera]

Do you have a link to a teardown showing that it's just a rebadged Hameg from 2011?

 What I'm looking for is feedback from folks who have used these machines and compared them with others hands on. Specs of the actual noise floor of this unit and others in the same class would also be helpful. It does appear to be very similar to the favourably reviewed HMO1202 from this video:



However I haven't seen any evidence that there hasn't been any improvements at all to the internal boards. Besides if it's a superior unit to what the competition has available then it doesn't really matter if it's rebadged. Hamag had a very good rep in the oscilloscope business.

Regarding Chinese made products. Yes many of them are great value. However I haven't read a single person say the Rigol or Siglent's 1000 class units are superior to the Keysight 1000x. And as mentioned earlier, I like the above listed advantages the R&S has over the Keysight.

I forgot to mention in my first post, I also like the gold plated BNC connectors, the 128k FFT, and 16 bit high resolution mode.

[Mivera]

Watching that HMO1202 teardown video I can see that the high res mode of it was only 10 bit. Where the RTC1002 has a 16 bit high res mode. I don't think it's possible to add that feature by simply putting a new badge on the case. However the HMO1202 was also not a Hamag scope. The Hamag brand was dissolved before the HMO1202 was released. The actual Hamag scopes had Hamag badges on them. The last Hamag based unit appears to be the HMO 1022:

https://produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/100000-124999/123462-da-01-en-HAMEG_INSTRUMENTS_HMO_1022_OSZILLOSKOP.pdf

Which was yet another generation older, and maxed out at 100mhz. So we are moving ahead by 2 generations of unit's here with the RTC1002. With improvements to each generation. I wouldn't call that re-badging the same product. Let's also keep in mind the base price of the last 2 generations was higher than the base price of the RTC1002.

[maginnovision]

I don't think anyone is saying there are literally no changes but it's not the same deal as rtb/rtm/rta. They all have 10" screens, ADC's and decent standard memory. The RTC really is likely a new version of the HMO, not an entirely new platform or it'd likely have been very similar to the other 3 newer series.

[thm_w]

By far the worst DSO I've ever owned was designed in Germany and made in England. But thats not relevant to anything other than that product 

Watching that HMO1202 teardown video I can see that the high res mode of it was only 10 bit. Where the RTC1002 has a 16 bit high res mode. I don't think it's possible to add that feature by simply putting a new badge on the case. However the HMO1202 was also not a Hamag scope. The Hamag brand was dissolved before the HMO1202 was released. The actual Hamag scopes had Hamag badges on them. The last Hamag based unit appears to be the HMO 1022:

The HMO1002 datasheet states "HiRes up to 16-bit": http://www.testequipmenthq.com/datasheets/Rohde-Schwarz-HMO1002-Datasheet.pdf
edit: they may have added it in a later firmware version.

[Mivera]

I don't think it's necessary to do a complete ground up redesign of a platform that's already proven to be competent. It doesn't bother me that the case looks similar to previous generation unit's. What I'm looking for is evidence that other 1000 series scopes are superior to this scope. As in lower noise floor, faster boot up, higher resolution high res mode, better FFT etc. I'm new to scopes altogether, but with my research over the last couple of days I haven't been able to find this evidence. Which was the reason I purchased this unit.

[maginnovision]

For the price you'd like to think it's better one large issue could be memory at only 2Msamples(1 @ 2 channels) it's pretty low but similar to the Keysight. Personally I wouldn't have a 2 channel scope as my only scope but if it works for you that's good. I think the price is a bit high for what you get but that's my opinion. Depending on where you are the Rigol 5k would have been in same ballpark for price but have more of everything.

[Mivera]

2 channels are enough for what I'm doing. What I'm looking for is quality, not more of everything. You can buy a full sized Kia for less money than a mid sized BMW. But doesn't mean the Kia is better quality. Knowing the actual noise floor of all of the units would be useful information. Not sure why this isn't in the data sheets.

[maginnovision]

It's because they aren't designed to have a guaranteed noise floor. R&S doesn't specify until you get to the RTA4000 series because if you need a spec you need to pay for the extra work that went into it. Not just specifying and measuring but the entire design. I think Keysight is the same(4k for noise floor specs). Rigol isn't cheap garbage, it's just cheap. They aren't some fly by night company either they've been around a while. I'm sure the RTC is a good scope I just don't think it's worth the $995 starting price.

Your vehicle comparison isn't apt either, since there are way more differences. A scope is mostly the sum of its specs plus a little extra for responsiveness/size. The Rigol literally has all better specs and more features. In this comparison the RTC would be the Kia, and the Rigol the BMW.

[Mivera]

Well they will all still have a noise floor. And wouldn't be hard for people to test and share this info when doing reviews.


Even if something has good specs to begin with, if cheap parts such as caps are used, they will drift from spec over time. No matter what the warranty is. Also I've read many times that the Rigol software is very clunky compared to the Keysight and R&S. R&S has been around for 88 years, and they have a reputation for extreme quality. Rigol won't say how long they've been around on their website. If R&S only cared about cost, they would have moved their scope manufacturing to China like others did. But the fact they wanted to keep it close to home for quality control reasons speaks volumes to me.

Regarding the car analogy, the only Kia owners I've ever heard say a BMW is a ripoff is the ones who never drove a BMW. Hopefully some R&S drivers can chime in with their experience at some point.

[maginnovision]

I worked for BMW and have an R&S RTB. You're asking for people to tell you the RTC is something it isn't though. I don't think it's bad but for the price it certainly isn't the best. The noise floor is likely to vary enough to be pointless in specifying even in a review as it only applies to that unit.

[Mivera]

I know it's not the best. It's their lowest end unit. But I am not seeing things like this in the footnotes of the RTC1002 datasheet like I'm seeing on the Rigol MSO5000 datasheet. To me this is a sign of a high noise floor.

[Mivera]

Good video here exposing the deception of some other scope brands:

[maginnovision]

No, but you'll find that in some Keysight data sheets too. It's just a design decision not a fatal flaw, unless it is for your needs. It's one of the reasons you can't always compare a to b. When one has something you need and the other doesn't the other things don't matter.

[Mivera]

It's really a sign of less capable hardware. But they're crossing their fingers nobody reads the footnotes before buying. If this wasn't the case they would make it clear right in the main specs. They don't mention it at all in the product briefs, or on the websites. You need to dig deep to find the info.

With the RTC1002 you get a true hardware 1mV/div minimum vertical scale. And the reason why is the hardware is simply better. It takes more effort and cost to make lower noise hardware. Especially when you don't have sweatshop workers building the gear for pennies on the dollar.

[thm_w]

I know it's not the best. It's their lowest end unit. But I am not seeing things like this in the footnotes of the RTC1002 datasheet like I'm seeing on the Rigol MSO5000 datasheet. To me this is a sign of a high noise floor.

Yes as I said already the Rigol noise floor is not good, its optimal for digital use. The thing with having an extra $700 to play with is you could use that money to: get a low noise amplifier or a true 14-bit scope (analog discovery), etc. as companion tools. Or go for a lower noise Siglent.

It's really a sign of less capable hardware. But they're crossing their fingers nobody reads the footnotes before buying. If this wasn't the case they would make it clear right in the main specs. They don't mention it at all in the product briefs, or on the websites. You need to dig deep to find the info.

With the RTC1002 you get a true hardware 1mV/div minimum vertical scale. And the reason why is the hardware is simply better. It takes more effort and cost to make lower noise hardware. Especially when you don't have sweatshop workers building the gear for pennies on the dollar.

ok, I'm done with this thread , lets move on guys.

[Mivera]

I'm quite happy with my purchase so far because I like the feature set this unit offers in 1 box. And nobody with hands on experience with the GUI, measurements specs, tear down videos etc, has chimed in with evidence that would cause buyers remorse. But as more of these units sell hopefully we will get more useful feedback.

[Mivera]

Anyways my unit should arrive on Thursday. I’ll learn how to use it and share my experience. I know I don’t have other scopes for reference. But I can still see how good of a power supply this unit is capable of measuring. Which will be useful information for folks building or testing power supplies for high end audio purposes. I have several supplies with between 0.4uV RMS to 500uV RMS ripple noise I can try to test.

[maginnovision]

Sounds good. So video review in 2 weeks? I'd watch it.

[Mivera]

Well I don't think I will have the level of experience in 2 weeks to make a great video review of the unit. Especially without any other machines to compare with it for reference. But I can share some screenshots of the best power supply ripple and noise measurements I'm able to get out of it. I was watching Dave's video here:



And would like to try both of his 2 best techniques to try to get the best measurements. Although I'm going to likely need probe springs and make up some custom test cables.

[Mivera]

Another thing I want is an electronic load. I'm researching them at the moment as well. It would be nice to have something with 1000W capability. But that's looking like it would be big bucks!

[Mivera]

After a bit of research, it's looking like a quality 1000w electronic load is out of my budget for now. May need to settle on 400W. And it's looking like to buy a proper 400w load without losing any sleep at night, I may need to go this route:


http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2553694.pdf?_ga=2.155303611.1695120267.1568666615-917852215.1568666615&_gac=1.220398252.1568677641.EAIaIQobChMI2_vmycPW5AIVBRitBh2eiQZWEAAYASAAEgJo6PD_BwE

[nctnico]

Look at GW Instek's PEL3000 DC load series. Not cheap either but at least these have a specified slew rate (a spec missing in the datasheet from the EA-EL load you found).

[tautech]

What I'm looking for is evidence that other 1000 series scopes are superior to this scope. As in lower noise floor, faster boot up, higher resolution high res mode, better FFT etc.

For a start the KS has 2GSa's sampling and if you think you'll upgrade to 300 MHz this will matter.

Dave explains it well here:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/05/21/eevblog-1213-the-oscilloscope-interpolation-trap/

Regarding high sensitivity front ends you should also watch this:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/

[nctnico]

What I'm looking for is evidence that other 1000 series scopes are superior to this scope.

You'll be better off just comparing price versus features. But do keep in mind that the newer models from Rigol and (to a lesser extend) Siglent have bugs in the firmware and may miss some features. In the end the best way is to try several oscilloscopes and see which one suits you the most. Ease of use is never translated well into the datasheet for example.

[2N3055]

What I'm looking for is evidence that other 1000 series scopes are superior to this scope. As in lower noise floor, faster boot up, higher resolution high res mode, better FFT etc.

For a start the KS has 2GSa's sampling and if you think you'll upgrade to 300 MHz this will matter.

Dave explains it well here:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/05/21/eevblog-1213-the-oscilloscope-interpolation-trap/

Regarding high sensitivity front ends you should also watch this:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/

OP already bought the  scope he wanted in the first place...
Apparently, he never wanted real actual advice based on facts, but he wanted us to confirm his choice.. When we didn't he went with it anyways...

He probably already bought that "great" EA load too , that doesn't even have a single interface on it (not even USB or RS232). They are optional extra. So is the software. Software alone is more than Maynuo 300W load. Fully loaded EA he mentioned will have bigger price then ITECH IT8514C+ which is 240A 1500W load....

Which is OK. His money, his choice. He knows best what he needs or wants..

Me, OTOH is curious about PSU with 0,4uV RMS noise RMS...  And how you measure that with a 1mV/div 8 bit scope... 

[Mivera]

Seems you need to spend close to $2000 if you don't want a re-branded Chinese load. So I decided to cheap out for now and ordered one of these:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32913653633.html

$270 shipped to my door via DHL express. Regarding the 0.4uV supply, I know I won't be able to measure that with this scope. I was just saying I have supplies with noise that low. I'm hoping I can get useful measurements down to 100uV out of this scope.

[Mivera]

Here's the load I really want:

https://www.kikusui.co.jp/en/product/detail.php?IdFamily=0113

1000W version. But a bit over my budget at the moment.

[nctnico]

Here's the load I really want:

https://www.kikusui.co.jp/en/product/detail.php?IdFamily=0113

1000W version. But a bit over my budget at the moment.

Well, buy them from the OEM then. Which is GW Instek. Look at how the PEL3000 series from GW Instek is 99.9% identical.

[Mivera]

Well that's good to know. A Japanese company that's been around for 60 years doesn't even build their own flagship products. What a shame. What do they just rebrand and warehouse everything?

[Mivera]

Here's a video tour of R&S's Vimperk factory where all of their scopes are built. Now that's a proper factory:


https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/vimperk_media/RS_Vimperk_MASTER-FullHD.mp4?w=800&h=600

[nctnico]

Well that's good to know. A Japanese company that's been around for 60 years doesn't even build their own flagship products. What a shame. What do they just rebrand and warehouse everything?

They do what every smart manufacturer does: provide a wide variety of equipment to offer one-stop-shopping without needing to design everything from scratch.

[Mivera]

Well I'd rather buy from the actual manufacturer. Especially if it's half the price. They must assume their clients are stupid. Because only someone stupid would pay double for the same product with a different badge. This makes me feel even better about my R&S purchase. Companies like this are a dying breed.

[Mivera]

I think I'll stick with R&S if I decide I need higher end gear one day.

[nctnico]

Well I'd rather buy from the actual manufacturer. Especially if it's half the price. They must assume their clients are stupid. Because only someone stupid would pay double for the same product with a different badge. This makes me feel even better about my R&S purchase. Companies like this are a dying breed.

It is not that black & white. Companies like Siglent are competing purely on price and can't afford the support professional customers require because their margins are too thin. You can buy the same equipment from Lecroy with better support. Everybody happy.

BTW: You start to sound like an R&S representive...

[Mivera]

BTW: You start to sound like an R&S representive...
[/quote]

I don't think a $2 Billion per year company would need to hire someone like me to come shill for them on a blog forum. I just like companies who build quality gear, all in house, and don't try to deceive people with deceptive specs, rebranding etc. The biggest shame is so many people don't see the value manufacturers like this offer anymore. I manufacturer gear myself. I could choose to outsource to Asia, or re-brand but I don't. And yes it makes my end products more expensive. But it also makes them superior in quality. Not to mention I'm supporting my own country's GDP. Something few care about. Which is why the western world is in the state it is today.

[Mivera]

Now here's the data I'd like to see published for all scopes. I suppose we can compile our own data. I'll start a new thread after I test the RTC1002. Yes I know every machine might not all get identical performance, but at least we will get a ballpark of what to expect. The R&S 4000 series is sure a drool worthy piece of gear! One day.....

[nctnico]

The biggest shame is so many people don't see the value manufacturers like this offer anymore.

What extra value is there? I don't see it. Why waste money on buying something from a manufacturer who can't compete and needs to recycle old designs as some last ditch attempt? Both R&S and Keysight recycle old, outdated oscilloscope designs to keep their portfolio broad but rebadging would be a much better strategy nowadays. Knowing your limits and so on.

Just look at cars. You can buy the same car from 2 to 4 different brands.

Edit: if you search the forum you can find noise floor numbers for most oscilloscopes.

[Mivera]

If you could provide evidence that there's better quality gear available for less then that argument might carry some weight. But nobody has been able to provide this yet. Also what about component quality? Are the Chinese brands using AEC-Q200 grade MLCC's and resistors? There's loads of 30+ yr old R&S gear still in use and working fine. Can the same be said for Rigol and all the other Asian gear?

Based on the comments I'm hearing on this thread, it's beginning to seem that some folks may have vested interests in gear from other brands. My intention of starting this thread was to get feedback from other R&S owners. But it seems that instead I've attracted supporters of competitive gear. Which would be fine if some evidence could be provided to support the claims.

[nctnico]

If you could provide evidence that there's better quality gear available for less then that argument might carry some weight. But nobody has been able to provide this yet. Also what about component quality? Are the Chinese brands using AEC-Q200 grade MLCC's and resistors? There's loads of 30+ yr old R&S gear still in use and working fine. Can the same be said for Rigol and all the other Asian gear?

So you really think R&S is using automotive parts in their lower end test gear? I highly doubt that so please provide proof (and not marketing wank). Perhaps in their higher end gear starting at 5 digits. And the modern R&S gear isn't engineered like the stuff from the 70's and the 80's. It would be way too expensive and R&S wouldn't sell anything at all. Technology moves fast so test equipment gets outdated very quickly. Also over-engineering doesn't help to make a product better for the customer. The lower end gear from Asian manufacturers isn't failing in large quantities either because they would be facing lots of warranty claims and damage to the brand which costs money. And even if the cheaper gear has a shorter lifetime it is probably still cheaper. In the past couple of decades I have never owned/used an oscilloscope until it died. I upgraded to something better with newer features long before that. There is no sense in paying extra for a piece of equipment that may last for 30 years if I only need it for 10 years.

The fact no RTC1000 / Hameg 1000 owners chime in should be a clue to you that very few people buy the low end R&S oscilloscopes. There are a whole bunch of RTB2004 owners and a few with an RTM3004 on their desk (like me) but for these oscilloscopes the value for money is better.

[Mivera]

The probability that R&S is using higher grade components in their gear is much higher than it is with the Chinese manufacturers who don't care as much about long term reliability. And the reason we know that is because R&S has a 90 year proven track record of doing so. Believe it or not but a 90 year track record of excellence carries some value. Amongst the several other points I've mentioned earlier in this thread.

And yes I know the big players like R&S and Keysight have ignored this low end market for years. But recently decided to enter it. The fact that R&S was able to enter this low end market, and still keep all manufacturing in house speaks volumes to me. However most folks buying this grade of gear don't have the proper education to realize why there's a price premium. Especially when there's an internet full of shills promoting the Chinese gear, and trash talking the quality brands.

[nctnico]

The probability that R&S is using higher grade components in their gear is much higher than it is with the Chinese manufacturers who don't care as much about long term reliability.

That is pure speculation. You better back this up with some MTBF numbers.

[Mivera]

There's a 90 year history of excellence to back it up. And you can't tell me the reason they build everything in house was to reduce manufacturing cost. Let's see a video tour like this of the Chinese factory's.

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/vimperk_media/RS_Vimperk_MASTER-FullHD.mp4?w=800&h=600


They won't even provide a proper company history on their website let alone factory tour videos.

[maginnovision]

Nico has an rtm, I have an rtb, tautech... Sells siglents. All 3 of us have something in common though, we don't think it's necessarily better to pay more for a brand name rather than real tangible things. That's what we're trying to tell you. I'm sure we all have varying levels of respect for R&S but the RTC just doesn't register as a good entry level scope for the price unless it has something you need the other options don't.

[tautech]

If you could provide evidence that there's better quality gear available for less then that argument might carry some weight. But nobody has been able to provide this yet. Also what about component quality? Are the Chinese brands using AEC-Q200 grade MLCC's and resistors? There's loads of 30+ yr old R&S gear still in use and working fine. Can the same be said for Rigol and all the other Asian gear?

I'm very satisfied (and so are my customers) with the reliability and capability of the Asian brand I sell.
If I wasn't I'd have moved to another brand years ago.

I've owned and used a few A brand bits of older gear and there's no way I'd still want to be using 30 yr old equipment such are the features that new gear offers.

Based on the comments I'm hearing on this thread, it's beginning to seem that some folks may have vested interests in gear from other brands.

Some of us do and are happy to put our gear against all comers in the same class, especially to those that seem to be wearing blinkers.

My intention of starting this thread was to get feedback from other R&S owners. But it seems that instead I've attracted supporters of competitive gear.

Because specs don't lie and recent gear to the marketplace offers far better bang for buck.

I'm new to scopes altogether, but with my research over the last couple of days ...........

Days ?
Some of us have been into test gear for decades and you choose to ignore all the advice offered ? 

Don't get me wrong, R&S is a perfectly reputable brand and yet they make design mistakes like any other.

[Mivera]

Admitting you use a higher end R&S machine is fine. Because the higher end machines are not competing with the Chinese gear like the RTC1000 is. The "Sells Siglents" part explains the issue here. Thanks for clarifying.

[Mivera]

Have the representatives from R&S been thread bombing the Chinese scope threads? Or is this only an issue when it comes to the Chinese scope reps?

[maginnovision]

He likes to give his opinion and it's fine. If you stick around and don't like it you'll learn to tune him out. I do believe his opinion isn't just based on being a salesman though.

[Mivera]

In my industry it's bad form to go on threads of competing products to trash them. I'm new around here so not sure if it's customary or not.

[nctnico]

There's a 90 year history of excellence to back it up.

The past isn't a guarantee for the future. The mechanical engineering of the RTC1000 series from R&S is sub-standard IMO; not bolting the BNCs to the chassis is a hard failure in my book. After you have dropped a scope or seen the damage from dropping a scope (or other equipment) you'll understand why this is an important detail. Replacing a BNC or just bending it back into shape is better than damaging the circuit board. In the 70's or 80's I'm sure R&S would never allowed themselves to design something like that but times change. You can't just go by the brand name.

Cars are a good example. When I go out to buy a car I check the experiences of others with the model I'm interested in. What kind of problems does a particular model have and what does it cost to fix it? A brand name is no guarantee for good quality. I have driven Toyota and Mazda in the past but the newer model from Toyota had serious engine problems and the newer model from Mazda had rust issues. There goes 181 years of combined history of 'excellence' right out of the door due to cost savings. Much to my own surprise I ended up with a Ford after doing the math. What brand my next car will be? I don't know. Depends on researching the models available at that point.

[Mivera]

Speaking of cars, the last time I went to the BMW dealer, for some strange reason they never sent me across the street to buy a Mercedes. It's strange how company reps prefer to sell their own gear over sending them off to competitors. I guess the same must apply to the scope business.

[tautech]

In my industry it's bad form to go on threads of competing products to trash them.

Who's done that ? 

[Mivera]

Why is it when I read this fellows post history, he's only discussing the gear he represents?


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=133086

More class? Doesn't see competitors gear as a threat? What could it be?

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Why is it when I read this fellows post history, he's only discussing the gear he represents?


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=133086

More class? Doesn't see competitors gear as a threat? What could it be?

Eek - don't bring me in to this     

Mivera - while I appreciate you are a fan of R&S (and thanks for buying an RTC1000!), I'd also encourage you to have an open mind to what the others in this thread are saying.  I think you'll be extremely happy with the RTC (most scopes in the low end over deliver for what people need), but like many things in life, there are sometimes more than one answer or solution to a problem.  For you, that is the RTC (great!), for others it might be a 1000X or a RTB2000 or a Siglent/Rigol/Uni-T/Hantek/Tektronix scope.  And that's great too.  Doesn't hurt to hear others opinions 

-Rich

[Mivera]

Thanks for chiming in! I'm open to others opinions. However the only opinions I've heard about the RTC1002 in this thread has been it was a poor choice to purchase. And 80% of this feedback has been from folks who sell directly competing products. This wasn't the informative feedback I was seeking when starting this thread. I was already aware of all of the Chinese scopes and their capabilities before making this purchase. And I still feel I made a wise choice.

[Mivera]

@Rich,

While you're here, do you have any idea of the noise floor I should expect from the RTC1002? My main purpose of buying this scope was to test low noise power supplies. I was reading this brochure on low noise tests:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/fr/general_37/local_webpages/RS_ScopeDay_March2017_Power_Integrity_measurements.pdf

Obviously I shouldn't expect to be able to get near the performance from the RTC as some of those pieces of gear. However is there an RTC compatible special probe that will allow me to measure lower noise supplies with the RTC?

[maginnovision]

I think you're misunderstanding, or I am. I'm not telling you the RTC is a bad scope, I just think you could have got something similar for much less, or better for the same price. You seemed to make this thread asking people to tell you how it's the best entry level scope. I personally don't think for about $1000USD that it is, unless it has something you need you've only suggested measuring low level signals which no scope in that price bracket will be great for. For low level signals you likely want a low noise amplifier. Any special probe with it built-in is probably going to be very expensive.

[Mivera]

I still haven't heard any evidence that explains to me why I could have bought a scope just as good for less, or a better one for the same price for my purposes. Even if you're just going strictly off datasheet information. However when you're buying a product there's more to it than just datasheet information. And this other information mostly comes from hands on experience, combined with the historical quality reputation of the company. Yes if R&S sold out like many others and shifted the production of these low end units to China, that would be a red flag for quality. But the facts are they are built in the exact same factory as the high end units. Using the same equipment, by the same people.

[maginnovision]

If you want a scope made outside of China, Taiwan, or Malaysia then I think you definitely made the right choice and it may be the cheapest qualifier too.

[Hydrawerk]

It is you who must decide what scope you need. The RTC might be OK if you want a small scope.
I do not like the front panel now. I think that it is not very ergonomic. I grew up with Tektronix and Agilent.

[Mivera]

Well it's not just that. I still haven't found anything in the price range that is capable of providing me with better measurement data for my needs. In fact all of the competition goes out of their way to mislead folks into thinking the gear is capable of a true hardware vertical scale of 1mV/div or lower, when in fact it's only fake software zoom. These tactics simply do not reflect excellence in my view.

[nctnico]

And 80% of this feedback has been from folks who sell directly competing products.

No, that is not true at all. Where did you get that idea??

[Mivera]

So nobody who has posted in this thread (besides Rich) is in the industry of selling measurement equipment? And if so is this measurement equipment R&S, or something out of Asia?

[tautech]

So nobody who has posted in this thread (besides Rich) is in the industry of selling measurement equipment?

Only me I think.

And if so is this measurement equipment R&S, or something out of Asia?

I've NOT suggested any competing model (which I could) and like others I'm only suggesting your mindset of excluding Asian brands is misguided or at least ill informed.

Anyways, you've made your selection and joined the forum so welcome and enjoy the many varied discussions about TE plus many other topics.

[TopLoser]

So nobody who has posted in this thread (besides Rich) is in the industry of selling measurement equipment? And if so is this measurement equipment R&S, or something out of Asia?

Jeez.. never mind the scope, you’re high maintenance!!

You already bought the thing, it’s too late to be chasing opinions now - just report back when you’ve evaluated it.

[JxR]

And 80% of this feedback has been from folks who sell directly competing products.

No, that is not true at all. Where did you get that idea??

So nobody who has posted in this thread (besides Rich) is in the industry of selling measurement equipment? And if so is this measurement equipment R&S, or something out of Asia?

I'm pretty sure he was just pointing out your exaggeration of the specific figure of 80%.  tautech posted 4 times in this thread.  Out of 70+ posts, that would be ~5% of the posts, not 80%.  You brought Rich into this thread yourself...

[Mivera]

Ok I misread Maginnovision's post and thought he said Nico sells Sigilant gear. Anyways on forums it's impossible to tell who has vested interests in certain manufacturers. Forums are loaded with shills. This is why hard data is required to carry any weight. Because the world of measurement gear is objective, not subjective. Unless we are talking about ergonomic features of the units. Such as knob placement, screen layouts etc.

[Mivera]

Anyways you guys have all voiced your opinion. However I still haven't heard anyone mention an alternative to the R&S that would be able to provide me with better data for my needs at the $975 price point of the RTC1002 or lower. Which is measuring low noise power supplies. And since these are for audio purposes, and humans with perfect hearing can only hear up to 20khz, 50mhz range works fine for my current needs.

[maginnovision]

I might suggest the SDS 1000X-E series. As far as I know it has a 500uV/div range without software magnification. GW Instek has the 1000 and 2000 which have 1M point FFT which is pretty good. When you get the RTC, IF you decide it doesn't have something you want or need then come back and we can all try to help you find something more suitable or cheaper for your purposes.

[2N3055]

Well it's not just that. I still haven't found anything in the price range that is capable of providing me with better measurement data for my needs. In fact all of the competition goes out of their way to mislead folks into thinking the gear is capable of a true hardware vertical scale of 1mV/div or lower, when in fact it's only fake software zoom. These tactics simply do not reflect excellence in my view.

You should do your homework better. GW Instek scopes have real 1 mV/div, Siglent scopes have real 500 uV per div, etc.

Listen, it's OK for you to make a choice based on your preference. I personally think you are wrong in several of your preferences and would go about this completely different, but you make your own choices.
That is just fine. But please stop making unfounded accusations of conflict of interest.  Only Rob And Rich sell or work for a brand, and they are very open about that.

Rest of us  just wanted to share with you our shared experiences. We have discussion about scopes (and other equipment) on a daily basis, sometimes heated ones, but after a long time we started to converge to several points that we all found common, and we came to the point that people that once had very different opinion had started to agree on some brands and models at certain price points as being best buys at this time. This will change with time but we have came to general consensus about few things.

If you want to benefit from that great. If not, just buy whatever you want. But being abrasive and calling us all names and accusing us of God knows what because we are saying something different than what you think is simply not nice. Lets just agree to disagree and that's it.

So to get this back to constructive discussion. I have Maynuo 9812 load that is working very well.
It doesn't have graphical screen, but it's well made 300W. I can recommend it from personal experience.
They have surprisingly useful Windows software for it, free. It is good price/performance load.

Also there are Itech (OEM for BK Precision), GW Instek (high quality brand actually, also OEM for many manufacturers), and also take a look at UK Aim_TTI  LD400 series loads.

None of these are noname brands, but well respected manufacturers.

[nctnico]

I might suggest the SDS 1000X-E series. As far as I know it has a 500uV/div range without software magnification. GW Instek has the 1000 and 2000 which have 1M point FFT which is pretty good. When you get the RTC, IF you decide it doesn't have something you want or need then come back and we can all try to help you find something more suitable or cheaper for your purposes.

I second the suggestion. However I think that there is more to measuring low amplitude signals then just having the lowest voltage / div setting. A better setup is to use a differential amplifier to get rid of (most of) the noise injected into the ground of the probe.

[2N3055]

Anyways you guys have all voiced your opinion. However I still haven't heard anyone mention an alternative to the R&S that would be able to provide me with better data for my needs at the $975 price point of the RTC1002 or lower. Which is measuring low noise power supplies. And since these are for audio purposes, and humans with perfect hearing can only hear up to 20khz, 50mhz range works fine for my current needs.

As I said Siglent SDS1000X-E series has real 500 uV/div range and is low noise. User here, Performa01 made a very comprehensive review of Siglent SDS1104X-E, where he measured many parameters not usually seen in datasheets of big brands...
There are others scopes too that outperform RTC1002....
RTC1002 is nothing special. Really. It is very nice little scope, but should be priced at 300-400 USD.
It is too expensive for what it is.

For very low noise measurement, I use 16 bit / 5MHz scope from Picoscope. It has 8uV RMS noise floor....

[2N3055]

I might suggest the SDS 1000X-E series. As far as I know it has a 500uV/div range without software magnification. GW Instek has the 1000 and 2000 which have 1M point FFT which is pretty good. When you get the RTC, IF you decide it doesn't have something you want or need then come back and we can all try to help you find something more suitable or cheaper for your purposes.

I second the suggestion. However I think that there is more to measuring low amplitude signals then just having the lowest voltage / div setting. A better setup is to use a differential amplifier to get rid of (most of) the noise injected into the ground of the probe.

This! At such a low levels, very measurement will be very complicated, because everything will contribute to errors and interference. With my very low noise Pico, it is hard to connect everything so not inject more interference than you have signal. Shielded boxes, battery powered DUT etc etc...

If you have to work on ready made device, diff amp is sometimes only way to get meaningful result...

[Mivera]

Thanks. The SDS1000X-E does look better than the Rigol's on paper. Although the real time sampling rate is half the speed of the RTC. It's also missing the 16 bit high res mode. It would be nice to know how low the noise actually is. But at only $379 for the SDS1202X-E, it does seem like good value. No matter where it's made. Same with the GW Instek. And both don't have the ability to upgrade to 300mhz if that was ever needed.

 I don't know for me unless the performance and reliability were better for sure, I'm comfortable paying an extra $500 for a genuine R&S product. When the day comes and I need real performance I'll be going with the R&S 4004 anyways. And I'll probably keep the 1002 for other purposes. Maybe even for decades. This is where reliability would pay off. However I would like to know the actual noise floor of those 2 Asian unit's. I'm sure somebody somewhere tested them for this.

[Mivera]

And I know that there's no way I'll be able to get super low noise measurements out of any gear under $1500. I'm just hoping to achieve between 100-200uV.

[2N3055]

And I know that there's no way I'll be able to get super low noise measurements out of any gear under $1500. I'm just hoping to achieve between 100-200uV.

Detailed review of SDS1104X-E is here :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371771/#msg1371771

My Picoscope 4264 has 8uV RMS noise floor. It is about 1200 USD.

[2N3055]

I took a quick look at SDS1104X-E data as measured by Performa1

at full 100MHz bandwidth and 500uV and 1 mV /div it's noise was approx 65 uV RMS and 360uV P-P.
At 20 MHz limited, it was 28 uV RMS and 150 uV P-P

Those are very, very good results...

[Mivera]

Looks good. So does the Picoscope. Perhaps I should have just bought the Picoscope. I knew about them and was considering one to use as an audio analyzer at 1 point, however I ended up buying one of these instead for analyzing audio:

http://www.prismsound.com/test_measure/products_subs/dscope_m1/dscope_m1_home.php

Which has extremely low noise (0.6uV). However this is for audio analysis up to 200khz. Not suitable for power supplies.

Thanks for providing this data on the Siglent. I'm hoping the RTC can compete noise floor wise. Otherwise I may end up having buyers remorse.

[Mivera]

Has anyone ever measured the noise floor of the Keysight 1000x? There must be some reason people are buying these. I bought the R&S based on comparing it to the Keysight 1000x. And I read quite a bit about the Keysight being a better unit than the Sigilant. Also I admit my research period for scopes was only over a 2 day span before pulling the trigger on the R&S. I used to outsource my measurement work. But now I'm in the process of building an arsenal of gear up so I can do it all locally.

[maginnovision]

The 1000X has magnified lower ranges. Like the RTC they're very nice scopes but due to pricing very few recommend them here. Noise floor isn't really a selling point, it's more of... A bonus? I'm not even sure that's true since it usually doesn't come into play. If you really want to measure low noise stuff you NEED amplifiers. Even the best scopes can't measure noise of a DC reference without one, for instance.

[Mivera]

Don't you need to use those amplifiers together with a scope? Extremely low noise differential amplifiers seem to cost much more than this scope on their own. Unless I've been looking at the wrong ones.

Let's forget about the price, and talk about the performance only. Let's pretend all of the 1000 series scopes cost exactly the same money. And only discuss what is the best product and why. Because for me whether it costs $500 or $1000 is really a moot point. As it's a very low % of my yearly equipment expenses either way.

[nctnico]

Let's forget about the price, and talk about the performance only. Let's pretend all of the 1000 series scopes cost exactly the same money. And only discuss what is the best product and why. Because for me whether it costs $500 or $1000 is really a moot point. As it's a very low % of my yearly equipment expenses either way.

None of the 1000 series scopes is really good. They are all at the low end and made at a price point. Hop into the >$1000 bracket to get in an area with less compromises.

[Mivera]

Well the SDS1104X-E has a noise floor over only 28uV with a 20mhz bandwidth. For my purposes that looks really good. I do understand that most of you guys are probably not using scopes for the sole purpose of measuring low noise power supplies like I am. And I understand that if I bought a $5000 differential amplifier probe the noise floor wouldn't be as important. As it would amplify the noise to levels far beyond the noise floor of any scope.  However my goal is the ability to measure the lowest power supply ripple noise possible, for under $2000 total, probe costs and all. And at the same time only buy quality gear that will last many years. If I need to measure under 10uV I can just send the boards out to a lab with $100000+ of gear at their disposal. It's mainly linear regulator boards that drop the noise that low for my purposes. This scope is mainly for measuring the supplies that feed the regulator boards.

[tautech]

Mivera, have a look at SDS2202X-E and 2352X-E. Despite being only 2 channels the do offer a little more than the SDS1000X-E models namely 2 GSa/s and 50 ohm inputs.
Then you also match the sampling rate of the KS 1000's but with a heap more memory depth.

[Mivera]

I had a look at them already. Even though I've already purchased the R&S. However I'm not seeing any specs that would be beneficial to me over the 1000 series. Seems the noise floor is higher, and it doesn't go down to 500mV/div vertical scale. The cost is higher than the R&S which already has 2GSa/s, and I'm not convinced the build quality is higher than the R&S. Especially after watching both the teardown video's of the HMO1202 and the Sigilant 2000 series. The 50ohm mode would be a nice feature, but I believe a simple BNC adapter can enable this as well.

[Mivera]

Sorry I was looking at the SDS2202X which costs $1595USD. The SDS2202X-E does look like it has a pretty good feature set and performance for the price point. However I would need to have both it and the R&S RTC1002 for a while to compare before deciding which is the superior machine in the real world for my application.

[tautech]

Nope, you're confusing 2000X-E with 2000X, an older but in many ways more capable DSO.
All X-E models offer 500 uV/div whereas 2000X models only 1mV and that's a magnification of 2mV.

https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000x-e/

Sorry I was looking at the SDS2202X which costs $1595USD

[Mivera]

For many people comparing just the datasheet specs of the 2 units, the Sigilant would be the hands down winner. But as a manufacturer of high end electronic gear I understand the extra cost of high end rotary switches, buttons, connectors, power supply caps etc, as well as manufacturing in Europe in an absolute SOTA facility, compared to China. Then we also have the R&S brand that also carries real value and will add to resale value. So there's much more to a piece of electronic gear than what the data sheets say.

For example I make DAC boards that I could be manufacturing for 1/3rd the cost, and they would measure exactly the same on paper when new. But 10-20 years down the road this won't be the case anymore. People buy my products because they're the types of people who appreciate the extra effort I put into the quality. Many don't and buy Chinese DAC's instead. But those people are not my target client base.

 I realize we live in a disposable world now, but for my use this scope will likely be adequate for decades. If more capability is required for what I'm doing in the future, I'll buy another one.

[tautech]

If nothing else your joining here has made you aware of the advances the Chinese have made in the last few years and I for one understand brand loyalties as I once considered Tek as a premium brand and have owned a few of their low cost units in the past. Truth is they don't today have anything that can challenge some of the low cost scopes that are the products of many of the newcomers to this industry.

It is indeed interesting times we live in.

[Mivera]

It's no different than DAC's in the high end audio world. The Chinese are making DAC's that measure as good as we can measure, for dirt cheap. However theres other factors that are subjective based that matter for audio that don't matter for measurement gear.

I still don't believe the R&S machines and the Sigilant machines are apples to apples when it comes to build quality. Brand name and manufacturing location aside. The BOM of the RTC1002 will certainly be higher. And it doesn't take much added to the BOM for it to end up adding $500 to the MSRP on electronic gear.

[2N3055]

It's no different than DAC's in the high end audio world. The Chinese are making DAC's that measure as good as we can measure, for dirt cheap. However theres other factors that are subjective based that matter for audio that don't matter for measurement gear.

I still don't believe the R&S machines and the Sigilant machines are apples to apples when it comes to build quality. Brand name and manufacturing location aside. The BOM of the RTC1002 will certainly be higher. And it doesn't take much added to the BOM for it to end up adding $500 to the MSRP on electronic gear.

Well, you will see for yourself.  Lots of us looked long and hard and consensus is that Rigol, Siglent, GW Instek for instance have build quality that matches or sometimes exceeds what first tier name brands are doing in that price / model bracket.

Even cheapest Rigol 1000Z has excellent build quality, and is sturdy little thing. Most complaints are people :
1. Expecting too much.
2. Coming from other equipment, and getting to use to new equipment philosophy
3. Software bugs.
4. Unusual design choices.

Lecroy and Keysight surely didn't have problems putting their name on Siglent and Rigol equipment, both quality and functionally-wise.

For instance, SDS1104X-E has nice 7" screen, it has Zynq 7000 based SOIC for processing (with hardware acceleration for FFT and such), 2X 1 GS/s A/D converters, decent encoders and certainly it's BOM is not cheaper than RTC1002.

If I put my MSOX3104T next to DS1074Z, and go back and forth, twiddling knobs and measuring something, i see difference in U/I speed and such, never at any point Rigol feels cheap. And I used to use it sometimes, because it has 24 MS of memory and can measure long captures better than literally 50x more expensive Keysight, that at some setting drops to as little as 1 Ms memory per ch (even less, 500 kS per ch if you use MSO).  I use DS1074Z very little lately, because I use my other Pico with 512 MS memory for long captures nowadays, but it certainly can outperform 50x more expensive brand name scope for certain tasks.

Regards,

[nctnico]

I still don't believe the R&S machines and the Sigilant machines are apples to apples when it comes to build quality. Brand name and manufacturing location aside. The BOM of the RTC1002 will certainly be higher.

No. It wouldn't surprise me if the BOM of the Siglent scope is actually higher. Compare these two teardown videos of the scope you bought and a Siglent SDS1104X-E:





There really isn't a difference in component quality here. The cost difference is entirely due to higher software engineering costs in Germany. Designing the hardware for a low end DSO is easy but the software is a huge amount of work.

[Mivera]

First of all that's the last gen R&S HMO, although very similar to the RTC.

I watched both videos and the R&S looks superior to me in build quality. And Dave's reaction to several aspects of the build quality of the R&S was very favourable. Drooling over almost every aspect. Then when we come to the software the R&S runs silky smooth. And with a boot up time 3x faster. The rotary knobs are much more sturdy, BNC connectors are gold plated and beefier, expensive high quality molex microfit connectors used exclusively for all internal connections. Power supply caps superior. Silent fan on the R&S, compared to a noisy one which Dave commented sounded horrible. Regarding the PCB itself, you can tell the Siglent is Chinese. Where the ultra clean board on the R&S is German designed, and built in house on the SOTA machines at R&S's own European factory. And based on the standard of excellence of all of the clearly visible components, I think it's safe to assume R&S also used superior MLCC's, resistors, diodes, inductors, and polymer caps on the PCB.

 Watching this video the knobs appear to be very sloppy as well. And the GUI just seems clunky and unrefined compared to the R&S. Well known software glitches aside. 

Sorry guys not sold on the build quality.

[Mivera]

I made an unboxing video for the swarms of R&S fanboy's on this forum:

https://youtu.be/8-wgbj-hDow

[maginnovision]

Looks good, I hope you like it.

[Mivera]

Thanks! Yes it's great so far. Still figuring it out. I'm pleased to report a noise floor of under 20uV RMS/140uV pp with 50mhz bandwidth. Far exceeds my expectations.

[maginnovision]

Since it has the variable filter you could probably get it even lower if you're working at audio frequencies.

[Mivera]

Yes that's full bandwidth with the base settings I ordered. And you not only can lower to 20mhz, there's a 5mhz low pass filter, as well as a noise filter that can be enabled. Haven't tried them yet.

[maginnovision]

In acquisition mode and arithmetic it has the variable low pass filter. Says the cutoff is determined by sample rate and can vary from 1/100 sample rate to 1/4 sample rate so I bet you could get it lower than 5MhZ

[Mivera]

I'll have to play around more. Of course what really matters is how low I can measure with the probes attached. I need to make up some Molex micro fit probe jigs to test my 0.4uV noise supply. Will probably need to do the differential A-B technique with dual probes to get the best results.

[egonotto]

Hello,

is this with high resolution?

Have fun with you new scope

Best regards
egonotto

[Mivera]

Thanks. The high resolution mode only extends the range of the screen to beyond the actual size of the screen. Then there's a mode that allows you to pan beyond the borders of the screen for extra viewing area.

Skip to 33:30 in this video to see how it works:

https://youtu.be/q_FBwu2K7j0

[Mivera]

I suppose it's also worth mentioning that noise floor measurement was with a 1Mohm input. From what I've been reading a 50ohm input reduces noise quite a bit. But for some reason they got rid of the 50ohm option for the RTC. That's a shame.

[nctnico]

Still an external low noise amplifier may give you better results. For the low V/div settings a DSO has to amplify the signal so this will add extra noise. In theory the noise performance will be better at V/div settings which require no amplification and least attenuation. I recon that is in the 20mV/div to 100mV/div range (with a 1:1 probe).

[Mivera]

Can you send a link to one of the amplifiers that you're talking about?

[Mivera]

Another shot @ 20mhz bandwidth. 1mohm input with nothing terminated on it:

[Mivera]

Still don't know what I'm doing. But was able to get down to 40uV RMS noise out of my lowest noise supply using a single probe method. But that noise was mostly interference. I still haven't figured out how to tell what frequency the noise spikes are at.

[thm_w]

There is no load, so may not be representative of in-use values.

Try measuring the output of the RAC05 at 1A load and you should be getting 60mV p-p (or a bit less due to larger capacitance): https://recom-power.com/pdf/Powerline_AC-DC/RAC05-K.pdf
If its significantly higher or lower, you know something is wrong with the measurement setup.

[Mivera]

I know theres no load. But the issue isn't that theres no load. It's interference anyways. The RAC-05 SMPS is being filtered by multiple stages of regulation so the ripple is no longer 60mV p-p. Under full load the actual noise of this supply under 100khz Is only 0.4uV. The supply is already a proven design, I'm just using it as a reference for the lowest noise I'm capable of measuring with this setup.

[Mivera]

I have a couple Sanken HWB’s I can test next.

http://s1.dtsheet.com/store/data/001645706.pdf?key=590cbc7da710c5f9336120711a83b82a&r=1

[thm_w]

I know theres no load. But the issue isn't that theres no load. It's interference anyways. The RAC-05 SMPS is being filtered by multiple stages of regulation so the ripple is no longer 60mV p-p. Under full load the actual noise of this supply under 100khz Is only 0.4uV. The supply is already a proven design, I'm just using it as a reference for the lowest noise I'm capable of measuring with this setup.

I suggested to measure the output of the RAC-05, which would be before the filtering you've added.

[Mivera]

I could do that. But I have a far more comprehensive datasheet on my Sanken supply with scope plots and everything. Just need to find them on my computer as the HWB series was discontinued and the detailed datasheet’s are no longer available to download. It’s also around 600uV RMS ripple, so would be better to test the 1mV division.

[Mivera]

I measured a bunch of supplies and got the results that were expected. I'm quite shocked how good of measurements I'm able to get from a single probe. Especially since the scope is plugged into a power bar with a noisy PC, monitor and other things plugged into it. I have LED lights in the room, and who knows what else that could interfere. But in spite of all of this I'm still able to measure down to 40uV RMS with a single probe. Which is far better than what I was expecting to be able to do before purchasing this scope. This scope is extremely immune to EMI, as the measurements of the scope itself are lower than any of the Chinese scopes with a 50ohm termination on the input, even without a 50ohm termination on the BNC input. I still haven't figured out how to fine tune the special filters, zoom in and use all of the other useful features.

 I must say I'm glad I bought this scope before starting this thread or I may have not bought it.

[maginnovision]

I think the real interesting thing is that most people don't regret their purchase. At least not for years since most scope aren't bad. Just make sure you learn and use it as much as you can before return period is over so you have no regrets later. That way you'll either be happy with your purchase or be able to try something else. To be perfectly honest for the price difference I'd probably get the RTC1K-COM2. You may not need it all now but maybe later you would... Hard for me to say what your needs will be. If nothing else resale value would be better.

[Mivera]

Well It has already proven in actual use that it's been able to take far lower noise measurements than I expected. And nobody has been able to share data that other scopes anywhere near the price point have been able to measure even lower noise of both the machine itself, and actual measurements with a probe. All I ever read about is how much of a nightmare it is trying to measure under 200-300uV with a single standard probe. When it was a breeze for me to measure down to 40uV. For example my PCB guy has a Rigol, and this is the best he could get from my same Purecharge supply in the attachment. And this is after hours of messing around. Look at the pink channel

Regarding the RTC1K-COM2 package, it is a great deal. However after thinking hard it is $700 more CND, and I can already do everything I need to do with this scope. If down the road I need more capabilities, I will buy a higher end R&S scope and put it in a different station. This one will be perfect for full time use in the power supply QC station for decades.

[maginnovision]

Yea, the 1054Z is not known to be especially low noise. I've had trouble checking... anything with one(always seems to be small signal stuff and I just take another scope with me). It's an 8 bit scope with software magnified lower ranges though, you can't expect too much from it down low. I'm glad you're liking your new scope. To check really low noise stuff you still want at least a single ended low noise amplifier or alternatively just a decent multimeter if you don't need to characterize the noise.

[Mivera]

From what I understand these low noise amplifiers are very expensive. Such as this one here:

https://www.itm.com/online/teledyne-lecroy-da1855a-series-differential-amplifier?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy4aFoMni5AIVC9NkCh3TYQIiEAAYASAAEgKupvD_BwE

If you know of anything decent under $2000 please share a link.

I also seen this probe and looked interesting. Has anyone here tried one of these?

https://www.picotest.com/products_PDN_Probe.html

Although I suppose I'll only be able to measure down to the noise floor of the scope with any passive probe. And I'm almost able to do that already with the included probe.

[maginnovision]

Here is a cheap adjustable amp.
https://www.alphalabinc.com/product/lna10/

[taydin]

The dscope audio analyzer that you have bought (or will buy, don't remember) will have a noise performance that will be orders of magnitude better than ANY oscilloscope, regardless of price. So why don't you use that for noise measurement?

I have an audio precision ap525 that works up to 1 MHz, and the extra bandwidth is specifically built into this unit to allow troubleshooting power supply related noise issues. For these audio analyzers, µV measurement is boring, everyday business.

[Mivera]

Wow that looks like a good unit for the price. I didn't know they were available for so cheap. I'll buy one and see how low of noise I can measure. I like the 1 Mhz bandwidth filter as well as I don't need to measure over 1 Mhz. Thanks for sharing!

[Mivera]

The dscope that you have bought (or will buy, don't remember) will have a noise performance that will be orders of magnitude better than ANY oscilloscope, regardless of price. So why don't you use that for noise measurement?

I have an audio precision ap525 that works up to 1 MHz, and the extra bandwidth is specifically built into this unit to allow troubleshooting power supply related noise issues.

I didn't know I could measure power supply noise with it. Is this possible with the Dscope?

[taydin]

I didn't know I could measure power supply noise with it. Is this possible with the Dscope?

You sure can. But the dscope doesn't have the 1 MHz option like the AP, so if you are measuring noise of an SMPS that uses 250 KHz switching, your dscope will be blind to it.

[Mivera]

How do I do that? I know any power supply noise that makes it to the analog or digital outputs of my audio gear that's under 200khz will show up. But I can also connect the supply up directly to the XLR inputs?

The new dScope M1 matches the aPX525 with the precision oscillator option in THD+N. -110dB. But limited to 200Khz. However I still plan on using the scope to measure class d amps, and anything over 200Khz. Which was another use for this scope as I didn't think 200Khz-1Mhz ability of the aPX-525 was worth the $15k price premium.

[Mivera]

Just found this app note but doesn't say if the supply can be connected directly to the analog inputs.


https://www.ap.com/technical-library/designing-switching-power-supplies-with-apx/

[egonotto]

Hello,

you can lower your noise level about a factor 1.4 if you add both channels.

The signals in the sum is doubled, but the noise is only about 1,4.


 
Best regards
egonotto

[borjam]

Regarding the RTC1K-COM2 package, it is a great deal. However after thinking hard it is $700 more CND, and I can already do everything I need to do with this scope. If down the road I need more capabilities, I will buy a higher end R&S scope and put it in a different station. This one will be perfect for full time use in the power supply QC station for decades.

I am sure the R&S is amazing for the price, but the price (including options) is still several times the price of the  SDS1202X-E. I own the Siglent and the Rigol DS1074Z and the Siglent is much better in input noise, responsiveness, etc.

If you compare teardowns of, for example, sort of "competing" Siglent and R&S models (example, Siglent and R&S FPC1500 spectrum analyzer) you will see a better construction in the R&S case. Especially if you compare it to the spectrum analyzer+VNA I have: SVA1015X which cuts some corners in order to lower the price.

Still: these cheap Chinese instruments are useful as long as you know how to use them and, of course, you are aware of their limitations. Again, same applies to the best in class ones. Although I got them for hobby use I have used both the Siglent and Rigol scopes to solve several problems at work and, indeed, I avoided a lot of stupid debugging time. Both instruments did their job perfectly given my requirements.

The good thing is: Before these Chinese manufacturers began to mature, you could only rely on second hand equipment for hobby use, which could be hit or miss. Now there is an entirely new price class which, again, is not the same as the higher end products made by manufacturers with half a century of experience behind, but  can work very well for many purposes.

Glad you are happy with your new scope. Now it's time to become familiar with its capabilities and limitations

[Mivera]

Hello,

you can lower your noise level about a factor 1.4 if you add both channels.

The signals in the sum is doubled, but the noise is only about 1,4.


 
Best regards
egonotto

I think the bottleneck here is common mode noise interference rather than the noise floor of the scope. I'll try that amplifier and see if I can get better results. However the results I'm already getting exceed what I was expecting to achieve with this scope. For extreme low noise measurements, I'm going to need a much more expensive setup such as the R&S RTO combined with their ZPR20 probe. Details in here:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/fr/general_37/local_webpages/RS_ScopeDay_March2017_Power_Integrity_measurements.pdf

[Mivera]

I'm not sure if this is a standard feature in all scopes. But I discovered I can take a sweep and it saves the sweep in memory. Then I can go into the acquire filter settings and change the low pass filter right from 50Mhz, all the way down to 2.5hz, and observe the difference in noise. No need for multiple sweeps as it applies the filter to the data saved in memory. It's pretty cool and didn't know I could do this.

[Mivera]

Does anyone know the best BNC cable to use between the LNA10:

https://www.alphalabinc.com/product/lna10/

And my scope? I bought some 50ohm adapters as well:

https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/cal-test-electronics/CT2944C-50/CT2944C-50-ND/9826334

Would it be best to use them on the scope input, or probe inputs of the preamp?

[Mivera]

Regarding the RTC1K-COM2 package, it is a great deal. However after thinking hard it is $700 more CND, and I can already do everything I need to do with this scope. If down the road I need more capabilities, I will buy a higher end R&S scope and put it in a different station. This one will be perfect for full time use in the power supply QC station for decades.

I am sure the R&S is amazing for the price, but the price (including options) is still several times the price of the  SDS1202X-E. I own the Siglent and the Rigol DS1074Z and the Siglent is much better in input noise, responsiveness, etc.

If you compare teardowns of, for example, sort of "competing" Siglent and R&S models (example, Siglent and R&S FPC1500 spectrum analyzer) you will see a better construction in the R&S case. Especially if you compare it to the spectrum analyzer+VNA I have: SVA1015X which cuts some corners in order to lower the price.

Still: these cheap Chinese instruments are useful as long as you know how to use them and, of course, you are aware of their limitations. Again, same applies to the best in class ones. Although I got them for hobby use I have used both the Siglent and Rigol scopes to solve several problems at work and, indeed, I avoided a lot of stupid debugging time. Both instruments did their job perfectly given my requirements.

The good thing is: Before these Chinese manufacturers began to mature, you could only rely on second hand equipment for hobby use, which could be hit or miss. Now there is an entirely new price class which, again, is not the same as the higher end products made by manufacturers with half a century of experience behind, but  can work very well for many purposes.

Glad you are happy with your new scope. Now it's time to become familiar with its capabilities and limitations

Thanks for your insight on the matter. I suppose the good part about this is most Western businesses no longer can afford to buy quality western products anymore because they sold out all of their countries GDP to Asia. So it's awesome that there's cheap options available when you're poor. On the downside the quality isn't increasing to compensate for the shift in wealth. So in the end western countries end up with settling with worse products for what they can afford. Of course this is looking from a perspective of someone with the aspiration of adding to my country's GDP.

[Mivera]

Every penny of GDP added to China, was a penny that left the Western countries. This is why almost every western country has been on the brink of bankruptcy since 2008. Well except the U.S which has been recovering since the last election. Proof is in the attachment. Kinda mirrors when Chinese scopes started getting cheap doesn't it? So what price are we really paying??

[Mivera]

I suppose I should add that the Chinese GDP data may show that the country is doing well. But what it doesn't show is 99.99% of that GDP is going into the pockets of 0.001% of the population. While the 99.99% live and work in horrible conditions, making less than $2 per day.  The standards for living and pollution are absolutely horrible. they dump raw unfiltered toxins into the rivers and the air. Most people don't even walk the city streets without masks on to filter the pollution. But they don't actually do anything. It would take a full blown respirator to filter that horrible air to safe levels. Who's going to wear those 24/7?

But the Western attitude is "hey but we're saving a few bucks aren't we........"

[maginnovision]

It's not advisable to get into politics on this forum, especially not here in Test Equipment. I would suggest deleting both of the China replies.

[Mivera]

Personally I feel if supporters of Chinese gear can come and crash this thread, it should be fine if supporters of western gear can state their opinion as well. Yes I can see how this could possibly be disruptive to some distributors who use this forum as a sales platform. But the way I see it, nobody who sells gear that isn't an interested civilian in the gear discussed, and is actually a salesman of other gear, should stick to their own threads.

[maginnovision]

Talking about the gear is fine, but those two replies were about china and little else. It's up to you though, I'm not one to report anything but spam.

[2N3055]

Fact that you a Sinophobe was clear from the start, blindly trumpeting virtues of "good Western" equipment...
West makes plenty of crap worse that China, but fraudulently slap some fancy brand on it and by claiming some purported quality that just isn't there.
Chinese are at least honest to charge honest prices: cheap for crap, and a bit more for good stuff.

So like maginnovision nicely said, hate who you like, that's your basic right, just not here....

What supporters of chinese and western gear? Any engineer that supports gear based on country of origin and not technical merits is nationalist, not engineer..
People on this forum like to call things bad or good based on technical merit and not on nationalism..
Most of us hang here exactly because of that, because we are fed up with that crap in mainstream media...

If you want nationalist crap go to Breitbart.com. Here we like to discuss MHz and mV.......

[SilverSolder]

Hello,

you can lower your noise level about a factor 1.4 if you add both channels.

The signals in the sum is doubled, but the noise is only about 1,4.
 
Best regards
egonotto

Cool trick, I like it!

[2N3055]

Hello,

you can lower your noise level about a factor 1.4 if you add both channels.

The signals in the sum is doubled, but the noise is only about 1,4.
 
Best regards
egonotto

Cool trick, I like it!

It is nice..
A bit more on the topic.

[Simon]

Can we get back to the topic please!

[Mivera]

There would have been no talk about China or Chinese gear had everyone discussed the scope the thread was made for. The topic is R&S RTC1002, not which Chinese scopes are cheaper than the R&S RTC1002. So moving forward hopefully we can stick to the thread topic. And maybe someone else that actually owns one will chime in at some point.

[Simon]

There would have been no talk about China or Chinese gear had everyone discussed the scope the thread was made for. The topic is R&S RTC1002, not which Chinese scopes are cheaper than the R&S RTC1002. So moving forward hopefully we can stick to the thread topic. And maybe someone else that actually owns one will chime in at some point.

Erm? go 2 posts back and reread!

[SilverSolder]

Hello,

you can lower your noise level about a factor 1.4 if you add both channels.

The signals in the sum is doubled, but the noise is only about 1,4.
 
Best regards
egonotto

Cool trick, I like it!

It is nice..
A bit more on the topic.

Thank you for the interesting article attached, food for thought.  Simple averaging can work near miracles, but the cross correlation techniques described sound like actual miracles!

[2N3055]

Hello,

you can lower your noise level about a factor 1.4 if you add both channels.

The signals in the sum is doubled, but the noise is only about 1,4.
 
Best regards
egonotto

Cool trick, I like it!

It is nice..
A bit more on the topic.

Thank you for the interesting article attached, food for thought.  Simple averaging can work near miracles, but the cross correlation techniques described sound like actual miracles!

[maginnovision]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/some-information-on-the-lna-10-low-noise-oscilloscope-amplifier/

Here is some more data on the LNA-10. Should work fine for your purposes.

[Mivera]

Thanks. Mine is on the way. I chatted with the engineer Bill Lee on the phone for a while today. He figures for 100khz bandwidth I will be able to measure down to 0.4uV RMS. Impressive unit for the price. Not sure why anyone would need to spend $8000 on the Lacroy box. Dave should have mentioned this unit in his ripple and noise video. It's pretty much a no brainer to use something like this. The big advantage is the differential mode with 90db CMRR. Common mode noise will be way less than the signal.

[leftek]

5: Made in the Czech Republic in R&S's own quality controlled factory rather than a 3rd party Chinese factory like the Keysight

Are you sure that is made in Czech Republic? Does this referred to his label?

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

5: Made in the Czech Republic in R&S's own quality controlled factory rather than a 3rd party Chinese factory like the Keysight

Are you sure that is made in Czech Republic? Does this referred to his label?

All our 1000/2000/3000/4000 scopes are made in the Czech Republic, about three hours from the design teams in Germany.

-Rich

[leftek]

Thank you. It's important positive point for me.

[fabrizio_fabrice]

Well except the U.S which has been recovering since the last election.

... Look at the data: recovery from 2007/2008 housing/banking fiasco began in March 2009, and was mostly recovered by 2014.

Always be suspicious of linear units for monetary values over time.   That seriously distorts reality, due to economics' built-in time value of money factor.   The distortion increases as the time period increases.

[Doug_T]

Mivera,

Any plans for a follow-up video beyond unboxing?  There is surprisingly little in terms of independent written or YouTube reviews on the R&S RTC1002.  Given the price cut through year’s end on the 300 MHz version with MSO digital hardware, I’d thought there would be more interest.   

I have a desire to upgrade from my 70 MHz Rigol 2072 as a self-training tool (an engineer in a different field) and this is a candidate.  I’m attracted primarily to the FFT capability but also to the greater bandwidth and seemingly polished interface.   

The 6.5” diag screen size is a concern of mine coming from the more horizontally expanded 2072. 

I’d love to go for the RTB2004, but even the discounted $3,700 US is hard for me to justify based on my needs.     

[DIPLover]

Sorry for being very late to the party, I just saw this thread (been buried in work for months, never had time for a proper review).

I have bought the RTC1002 in the all-upgraded RTC1K-COM2 package for about $1500 USD, back in august.

I never had the time for a proper review, here are some notes...

I am absolutely completely and utterly satisfied.

Unit boots in 7 seconds. UI is very responsive and all-around excellent.
I have owned both Rigol and Siglent scopes. They were very fine units for their prices, but they still have a long way to go to catch R&S or Agilent on UI.

Unit is incredibly compact and silent. I transport mine in a camera bag made for a DSLR.

Analog probes are cheapies. Digital probe is nice.

Protocol decoders work very well. No complaints.

20 divisions scrollable vertical "virtual" screen is quite useful.
SQUARE divisions. (Important to me). Also on the siglent.
The screen is a 4:3 ratio 6.5 inch LCD, but will show you 12 horizontal divisions, so it has a bit of horizontal expansion compared to a classic 10x8.
Most widescreen scope simply use rectangular divisions, though I believe my Rigol DS2072A could show 14 with menus off.

Keysight just wastes the horizontal space with a big logo and some setup info they could put on the bottom.

This is not my only scope, I also own a Tek TDS784A with 4 active probes, so I use that when I need 4 analog channels, very high bandwidth or excellent probes.

RTC1002 has displaced my beloved analog scope (Tek 2465) from the bench though. Since sold at a 50% profit. I'll get over it some day.

-3dB bandwidth is precisely 300MHz (measured with a good Keysight sig gen).
Trigger bandwidth (and frequency counter limit) is 454 MHz on my unit.

Look for Dave's video #842 of the HMO1202. This is the same scope, minus the switchable 50 ohm input (a shame!).

I use the FFT a lot. It's the best user interface implementation I have ever seen on a scope. Just a blast to use. (EEVblog 845 to see it in action)

So does the base model make sense compared to the rigol and siglent? Probably not, as it's twice as expensive.

Does the discounted high-end model make sense? Certainly, it's half the price of a comparable keysight (MSOX2022A, only 200MHz bandwidth and half the memory).

It's also price-competitive with the Rigol MSO2302A-S and the Siglent SDS2302XE with mso option.

[Doug_T]

DIPLover,

Thank you for the response and It sounds like the HTC1002 will be an excellent scope.   I found I was straining somewhat to see the 8” Rigol 2072 good screen (my age) so was concerned with the 6.5” display of this R&S as well as it would have to be my primary (only) scope. 

I would simply love to have an analog scope too but I’m not at the skill level to make detailed repairs when eventually needed. 

As it turned out, yesterday I ordered the R&S RTB2004-com4 package and plan to pass the Rigol along to a friend to get them hooked as well. 

Rich helped through PMs along the way.  Many a year ago, I got burned buying the more economical IBM PC Jr instead of the IBM PC so I was leery.  In this case, I think either the RTC & RTB would have worked...just hated to spend that much. 

I will add that I was surprised that the frequency analysis package (Bode plots) is included though TEquipment and others do not list this option with the package.  The EEVforum discount almost covered the sales tax.   

[killingtime]

I know is this an old thread, but I have a question on the RCT-1000 RTC1K-COM2 package deal. It's advertised with the 'Mixed Signal Upgrade' RTC-B1 MSO, but I can't find any information on the R&S website as to whether this is a software licence key, or the 8 bit (buffered) probe that plugs into the front of the Oscope, or both. You need both do digital signal analysis.
I called three UK distributors (RS, Farnells and Imex). No one seemed to know. Having read the R&S downloads, I can understand why. The options list isn't that descriptive. Some options need hardware (like logic), but the options don't say what you get for the upgrade.

I e-mailed R&S a number of times asking for clarification but have yet to hear anything.

The B1 option on the R&S website is here, but it doesn't say what's included.

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/id/product/sw_rtx-b1-productstartpage_63493-502030.html

Without the logic pod and key upgrade, the digital option is useless.

Does anyone know of an R&S webpage that details what you actually receive for the RTC-B1 MSO option, or the COM2 option? I can point one of the UK distributors to that and hold them to it if the scope arrives without the option. I would order from R&S direct but understandably (as I'm not spending 6 figures) they won't deal for such a small purchase.

Thanks.

[maginnovision]

I can't be sure about the RTC having not ordered it but the rtb packages do come with everything so I'd SUSPECT you get everything you need.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

I know is this an old thread, but I have a question on the RCT-1000 RTC1K-COM2 package deal. It's advertised with the 'Mixed Signal Upgrade' RTC-B1 MSO, but I can't find any information on the R&S website as to whether this is a software licence key, or the 8 bit (buffered) probe that plugs into the front of the Oscope, or both. You need both do digital signal analysis.
I called three UK distributors (RS, Farnells and Imex). No one seemed to know. Having read the R&S downloads, I can understand why. The options list isn't that descriptive. Some options need hardware (like logic), but the options don't say what you get for the upgrade.

I e-mailed R&S a number of times asking for clarification but have yet to hear anything.

The B1 option on the R&S website is here, but it doesn't say what's included.

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/id/product/sw_rtx-b1-productstartpage_63493-502030.html

Without the logic pod and key upgrade, the digital option is useless.

Does anyone know of an R&S webpage that details what you actually receive for the RTC-B1 MSO option, or the COM2 option? I can point one of the UK distributors to that and hold them to it if the scope arrives without the option. I would order from R&S direct but understandably (as I'm not spending 6 figures) they won't deal for such a small purchase.

Thanks.

You’ll receive the logic pod and license. Everything needed to use the full 8 channels.

-Rich

[killingtime]

You’ll receive the logic pod and license. Everything needed to use the full 8 channels.

-Rich

Thanks. I'll put an order in on Monday.

[egonotto]

Hello,

in the User Manual 1335.7352.02 ─ 04  for R&S®RTC1000 at page 107:
"
The R&S RTC1000 has a connector for the R&S RT-ZL03 logic probe to add 8 digital
logic inputs. To use the logic analysis, you need the option R&S RTC-B1. The logic
probe comes with the option
"

Best regards
egonotto