Author Topic: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope  (Read 29973 times)

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Offline JoHr

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R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« on: January 16, 2018, 11:47:31 am »
Just stumbled over this:
http://www.elektroniknet.de/design-elektronik/messen-testen/schweizer-taschenmesser-mit-skalpell-149486.html

seems like R&S finally gave as the bigger brother of their RTB2000 :popcorn:

*Probe Interface
*1GHz
*Really fancy sepctrum analyis as far as I can tell from the pictures
*500µV/div  :o

Anybody saw this somewhere in real life already?

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Offline npeter

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2018, 11:54:20 am »
I was hoping they would come up with some kind of good application bundle promotion for the start, but it seems they choose the free equipment way this time:
https://allice.de/aktion/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-oszilloskop-promotion-fpc1000-spektrumanalysator/
 
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Offline darkstar49

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2018, 12:10:44 pm »
doesn't look too bad...but at 4.5K EUR base price (zero options), and 10K EUR the 1GHz upgrade, they're not likely to attract many customers... They'll have to seriously think about their marketing and offer some attractive bundles...

you're getting into price regions you can sometimes get a used RTE/RTO for... and I wouldn't hesitate a single second !!


 

Offline JoHr

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The law of conservation of bugs states that the total amount of  bugs of an isolated system remains constant. Bugs can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, they can be transformed from one form to another.
 

Offline 0xfede

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2018, 01:23:40 pm »
Seems to me just a less marketing crippled version of the RTB2004 and it is overpriced too.
The 4 channel bus decode is the same bullshit since in reality you get half but this time they added a small note in the datasheet just to remember that they are cheating.

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Offline Eric_S

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2018, 01:41:31 pm »
 

Offline lem_ix

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2018, 03:45:23 pm »
It seems nicely matched in price to the Keysight. As long as I'm not the one paying it looks good  :D
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2018, 03:51:10 pm »
Looks like it might run the same/similar FW as the RTB2000s, which is good for continuous improvement/bug fixes long term etc.

Offline Neganur

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2018, 03:54:59 pm »
I think 5.2k for the 200MHz 4-Ch 4K series is pretty ok. The 4000X series from Keysight is a lot more expensive costs the same at the entry price.

At least the memory part seems to be served fairly OK now?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 04:12:41 pm by Neganur »
 

Offline lem_ix

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2018, 04:02:51 pm »
The options bundle has the same price for both 3k and 4k but the MSO option is 2x on the 4k.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2018, 04:35:28 pm »
Looks like it might run the same/similar FW as the RTB2000s, which is good for continuous improvement/bug fixes long term etc.
It does  :-+  And I've heard there might be some easter eggs in it, but no Pamela Anderson  :-DD

And thanks everyone for the positive comments.  All the normal reviewers will receive units for review - I'm excited to see what they do with them. 

Please let me know if you all have questions and I'll do my best to answer them ASAP.

-Rich
 
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Online jjoonathan

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2018, 07:04:41 pm »
Maybe when USB and Ethernet decodes land they'll be limited to the 4k and that will fill out the differentiation?
 

Online jjoonathan

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2018, 07:19:53 pm »
I don't see an MSO port on the front, does it plug into the back?
 

Offline KrudyZ

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2018, 07:33:06 pm »
I don't see an MSO port on the front, does it plug into the back?
It's on the side.
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Offline BU508A

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2018, 07:55:12 pm »
I don't see an MSO port on the front, does it plug into the back?

They are on the left side. Picture taken from the link in the second posting.

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Online tautech

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2018, 08:12:34 pm »
I don't see an MSO port on the front, does it plug into the back?

They are on the left side. Picture taken from the link in the second posting.
Hmmmm, in this class of instrument you'd have though R&S would've put the Demo and Pattern generator gaming pins somewhere else and MSO on the front panel where it belongs.  :-//
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2018, 08:19:33 pm »
I don't see an MSO port on the front, does it plug into the back?

They are on the left side. Picture taken from the link in the second posting.
Correct.  Here is a better pic.  I personally prefer them out the side (or the back) - better cable management/egress IMO.  But I know some folks prefer out the front.

-Rich
 

Online jjoonathan

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2018, 08:37:43 pm »
Ah, there they are! I'm not a fan of logic port on the back but side is fine :)  Seems like HDMI is becoming something of a standard for logic probes.

Now I'm looking at the spectrum analysis. I'm a big fan of the RTSA-like functionality that R&S put in their previous lineup:



but the spectrum analysis video doesn't really show it off. Is it still there, just hidden under a persistence setting?



EDIT: wasn't expecting it to actually embed the videos in my post.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2018, 09:18:13 pm »
The implementation of the SpecAn on the 3000 and 4000 is very similar to the RTE1000 and RTO1000/2000 that are in the first video - they all use digital down conversion to speed the FFT processing.  I believe it is also hardware accelerated in the 3000 and 4000 (it is super fast), but I'll check. 

-Rich
 

Offline CRTbrain

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2018, 09:42:01 pm »
The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K.  It's standard and no extra memory options to have to considered.  Nice job R&S on this part.  the 3000 has  80Mpts and  the 4000 has 200 Mpts of normal acquisition memory.  If my math is correct, on the 3K this is 8X  more than Tek and 20X more than Keysight.  On the 4000 this is  10X what is available on Tek and 50X  more than Keysight.   This is the first time this much acq memory has been on midrange scopes that I know of.  Nice leapfrog for R&S.   R&S states that more memory can be used for segmented mode, but this is a special case and I don't normally care about this mode.

Why did they name them the RTC1000, RTM3000, and RTA4000?  Why not just DSO1000, DSO3000, and DSO4000?   Anyone know what the A, M and C stand for? 

Other than deeper memory and a more precise timebase (OCXO), did anyone else notice differences between the 3000 and 4000?  Tek and Keysight's 3K and 4K also seem to be very close in specs, but the 4K display size for each company is slightly larger than the 3K version.  It seems that the R&S 3K and 4K both use the 10" capacitive display.

Anyone know if there is an adapter for active Tek current probes? 
 

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2018, 10:11:30 pm »
The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K. 
:-//
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Offline ogden

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 10:23:43 pm »
The implementation of the SpecAn on the 3000 and 4000 is very similar to the RTE1000 and RTO1000/2000 that are in the first video - they all use digital down conversion to speed the FFT processing.  I believe it is also hardware accelerated in the 3000 and 4000 (it is super fast), but I'll check. 

It would be good to confirm that FFT is "realtime" and does not lose samples, otherwise spectrogram view would be useless.

Regarding MSO port - who would want hard HDMI cable sticking out of scope front and trying to occupy your working space on a table? - Not me.

Example:


 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2018, 10:27:22 pm »
Quickly comparing datasheets of 3004 vs. 2004 :
4x memory 40/80M vs. 10/20M (interleaved/noninterleaved)
2x sample rate (2.5/5G vs. 1.25/2.5G)
14pf vs. 9pf input capacitance (1M)
500uV vs. 1mV/div
runt & rise/fall time triggers
"Up to  64Kwfms/sec" vs. "Up to 50K" ( a little disappointing)
8 vs. 4 active measurements
Some sort of sequence triggering ( edge A/B)  - not sure exactly what this is
Additional maths : maximum, minimum, square, square root, absolute value, positive wave, negative wave, reciprocal,
inverse, log10, ln, derivation, integration
(but no filter options like Keysight have - lowpass is handy for visualising PWM signals) Mentioned in manual but not datasheet.
Spectrogram (option)
More decodes - similar set to Keysight -ARINC, 1553, I2S etc. No USB or ethernet.
4 vs. 2 decodes
Uart decode 6Mbaud vs. 3Mbaud max
Wavegen 10V vs 5V max output, AM/FM/ASK/FSK, Sweep RTB2000 has this but not on datasheet
Fast segmented mode for up to 700Kwfms/sec. Overlay/avarage/enve lope segments
"spectrum analysis and spectrogram" option - not obvious how the former differs from FFT
Power analysis option

So as expected, as the RTB2004  was clearly aimed at the MSOX2000, the 3004 is aimed at the MSOX3000, with very similar ( but not quite all) functions & options.

I'm supposed to be getting one but don't know when.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 12:23:39 pm by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2018, 10:28:52 pm »
The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K. 

Picoscope 3406 has 512 Mpts, 6000 series has 1Gpts... Even Rigol 4000 has 160 Mpts...
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2018, 10:29:33 pm »
R&S states that more memory can be used for segmented mode, but this is a special case and I don't normally care about this mode.
It does appear that they have a way of using segmented to improve waveform capture rate to 700Kwfms/sec. I wonder if they maybe do something like disabling realtime display during acquisition to achieve this
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