R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope

[MarkL]

Since we're on the topic of probes here...

Rich: Does R&S intend to offer any kind of an adapter to go from the TekProbeII probe interface to your proprietary R&S Probe Interface?

LeCroy, Keysight, and Rigol all offer such a device for their scopes.  Tektronix even offers one to adapt to their new VPI interface.

They're quite handy and lowers the cost barrier, potentially significantly, for new customers considering your scope product line.

While there may be some justification in ease of use or functionality for brand new probes, most of the time existing probes within an equivalent range will do the job just fine.  E.g., A 1GHz active probe is still a 1GHz active probe no matter whos connector you stick on the end of it.

The advancements are happening faster in the scope internals and no so much in probes, which is why some customers would opt to preserve probe investments over a longer period.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just found something odd - haven't checked vs. 2004
When UART decode is on, peak-detect sample mode stops working as it should. The fact that the "peak detect" legend onscreen gets greyed in this mode suggests maybe it's intentional ?

Attatched screenshots are the same trace with & without decode enabled - many of the peaks (approx 175ns) on the orange trace no longer appear

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Since we're on the topic of probes here...

Rich: Does R&S intend to offer any kind of an adapter to go from the TekProbeII probe interface to your proprietary R&S Probe Interface?

LeCroy, Keysight, and Rigol all offer such a device for their scopes.  Tektronix even offers one to adapt to their new VPI interface.

They're quite handy and lowers the cost barrier, potentially significantly, for new customers considering your scope product line.

While there may be some justification in ease of use or functionality for brand new probes, most of the time existing probes within an equivalent range will do the job just fine.  E.g., A 1GHz active probe is still a 1GHz active probe no matter whos connector you stick on the end of it.

The advancements are happening faster in the scope internals and no so much in probes, which is why some customers would opt to preserve probe investments over a longer period.

Stay tuned 

-Rich

[thm_w]

Newark has a deal to buy an RTM3000 350MHz+ and get a free FPC-P3 3GHz spectrum analyzer.
The cheapest RTM is $8700 CAD though, way too much for me: http://canada.newark.com/rsscopes?CMP=e-email-Can-060218-Rhode

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm seeing something a bit wierd with the maths lowpass filtering function.
I have a 20khz PWM waveform, with a partial sinewave modulation of the duty cycle.

When viewed using a 1khz LPF, I see the images below. The zoomed-in view seems particularly odd.

The third image is from the MSOX3104T, which is more like what I'd expect to see..

Am I misunderstanding something about how the LPF works or is it a bug/characteristic ?
 

[nctnico]

I'm seeing something a bit wierd with the maths lowpass filtering function.
I have a 20khz PWM waveform, with a partial sinewave modulation of the duty cycle.

When viewed using a 1khz LPF, I see the images below. The zoomed-in view seems particularly odd.

The third image is from the MSOX3104T, which is more like what I'd expect to see..

Am I misunderstanding something about how the LPF works or is it a bug/characteristic ?

I'd vote for a bug. Maybe something goes wrong with converting the samplerate of the zoomed in signal. Also IMHO the filtering on the RTM3000 doesn't seem to have much suppression.

[mikeselectricstuff]

So I was just going to compare the speed of UART search between the RTM and the Keysight, the KS can get quite slow on long packets.

But I  found that the RTM and RTB don't do search on UART ( only CAN and LIN).

Seems like an odd omission that only automotive protocols support search - is this just a "not implemented yet" issue ?
 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

So I was just going to compare the speed of UART search between the RTM and the Keysight, the KS can get quite slow on long packets.

But I  found that the RTM and RTB don't do search on UART ( only CAN and LIN).

Seems like an odd omission that only automotive protocols support search - is this just a "not implemented yet" issue ?

That's weird...

When you connect via http, what you see on the browser is a video/stream of pictures of the scope screen, or a page composed of html elements? For example, can you search (cmd-f) for words and it finds them or not because the words are pixels in an image? And does the contents adjust to the window size (a "responsive" layout) or is it always the same layout that can only be zoomed in/out?

If it's not a stream of images cmd-f may help in table view or something, perhaps.

[mikeselectricstuff]

That's not really useful.
This is the funcitonality I expect from Scope search - showing all the points on a waveform when an event happens - in this case specific decoded byte values. Basically anything you can trigger on, e.g.   !=, > or < a value, I2C start condition etc.

[JoHr]

...

If it's not a stream of images cmd-f may help in table view or something, perhaps.

Searching on your PC would help for sure, but with running data this would not be stable ... 
Live data provides the bus content  for external searches ...

As Mike mentioned ...  searching for a specific byte value should be supported by the scope itself.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Yes yes I know it's not a substitute, but I am curious to know how exactly they've done the browser/http remote control. Are the display texts text elements thus searchable or images?

[Hydron]

If you see my post here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1420475/#msg1420475
in the thread about LXI tools then you can look at the javascript that the RTB2000 uses for live view/control.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Thanks Hydron, lots of <canvas> in that .js, I see no text elements everything are pixelmaps, so cmd-f surely can't work (?). ISTM they stream waveforms as Uint8Arrays and render them on a canvas on top of the background (made of other canvas-es), perhaps that's why the updates/s are so fast:

[technogeeky]

I'm seeing something a bit wierd with the maths lowpass filtering function.
I have a 20khz PWM waveform, with a partial sinewave modulation of the duty cycle.

When viewed using a 1khz LPF, I see the images below. The zoomed-in view seems particularly odd.

The third image is from the MSOX3104T, which is more like what I'd expect to see..

Am I misunderstanding something about how the LPF works or is it a bug/characteristic ?

If you're probing a mustache, it looks damn near perfect!

[MikeP]

I'm seeing something a bit wierd with the maths lowpass filtering function.
I have a 20khz PWM waveform, with a partial sinewave modulation of the duty cycle.

When viewed using a 1khz LPF, I see the images below. The zoomed-in view seems particularly odd.

The third image is from the MSOX3104T, which is more like what I'd expect to see..

Am I misunderstanding something about how the LPF works or is it a bug/characteristic ?

 Perhaps a mathematical filter has no brickwall characteristic.
 
Mike, if you have a generator with -90 dB THD+N or better. Can you make a FFT comparison in audio band for RTB and RTM. Thanks.

[Herbertl]

Not really swiss knife. Came across this video with shocking bugs in another (german) forum.     

[nctnico]

That video isn't free from user errors though.
1) It is a design choice to redraw the signal at a parameter change or not. If the signal isn't redrawn then you have two (or more) waveforms on screen based on different settings. So which is which?

2) At around 8 minutes they put the trigger point beyond the signal with the RTM3004 in normal trigger mode and they wonder why nothing shows. 

3) Whether roll-mode starts on the left or on the right is also a design choice. IIRC R&S specifically changed that behaviour to what the video is showing in a more recent firmware update. I'd guess that is based on customer feedback.

[Herbertl]

@ nctnico   

I regret, but you did not understand anything in the video
and even worse, you did not even understand an oscilloscope.

Norm trigger (with Single) does not show anything, no matter where you put it. READ the manual !
Or did Rohde & SChwarz make an user error when they wrote that in their own manual ?

A roll mode is a roll mode, not a question of design.
And the crash at the end, is it also a matter of design ?

1 + 1 = 2 that is a fact, not a question of design.

My 30-year old Tek does what a roll mode should do.

Hameg had been having decades-long experience and had be very successful over decades.
They knew what they did things they and why they did it the way they did.

It is a pity that some amateurs are not willing to accept facts.

I guess one can expect a 20000 € scope not to have any bugs.

[nctnico]

Hameg has been bought by R&S ages ago so arguing Hameg is doing things better than R&S is kinda moot.

Perhaps you should read some of my other posts. I've owned and used many different types of oscilloscopes from low-end to high-end and am doing very in-depth oscilloscope reviews every now and then. From experience I know that not all manufacturers implement roll-mode the same way.

These are the release notes of the latest firmware from januari 2019 : https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_firmware/pdf_3/RTM3000-US_Release_Notes_v01.400.pdf. It spefically states the autoset lock-up bug has been solved together with several roll-mode issues. I can't reproduce the autoset lock-up situation the video shows on the RTM3004 I have here so I guess the creator didn't update to the latest version. It is kind of lame to publish a video showing bugs which have been fixed months ago.

[Herbertl]

I came here to this forum to get me some advice about what scope might be the right one for me.

But all I read from you is, that you do not understand what Norm Trigger and Single shot means.
Why should I then read your reviews if you do not even get the fundamentals?

You do not even grasp a simple video comparing 2 scopes, one capturing correctly and the other one missing the signal.
Watch from 6:35 min. on and everything is said.

~~
User Manual RTM3004, p.72:
"Norm" The instrument acquires a waveform only if a trigger occurs, that is, if
all trigger conditions are fulfilled. If no trigger occurs, no waveform is
acquired and the last acquired waveform is displayed. If no waveform
was captured before, nothing is displayed.
~~


I am really sorry to have to write that, but from EEVBlog I would have expected more.

Paper doesn't blush. Do you have Youtube channel? Would like to see videos made by you.

Needless to say, but Hameg made very good scopes.

[nctnico]

I came here to this forum to get me some advice about what scope might be the right one for me.

But all I read from you is, that you do not understand what Norm Trigger and Single shot means.
Why should I then read your reviews if you do not even get the fundamentals?

You do not even grasp a simple video comparing 2 scopes, one capturing correctly and the other one missing the signal.
Watch from 6:35 min. on and everything is said.

I watched it again and what the video shows is a user error. There is no triggering in roll mode on the RTM3004. If you want to trigger on a slow signal then you have to disable roll-mode for long time base settings. In roll mode you can let the RTM3004 roll continuously or use the single mode to capture a signal manually (as shown in the video). The oscilloscopes shown in the video just work differently but the reviewer doesn't seem to understand that. Ofcourse it is a matter of personal preference whether you like the way it works or not.

And no, I don't do video reviews because videos are long-winded (try to compress 30 to 50 hours of testing into one video...) and impossible to use as a future reference to look something up quickly. Video just doesn't work for a really detailed in-depth review.

[Fred27]

@Herbertl You might get a better reception on the forum of you didn't just stomp on here being unnecessarily rude.

[2N3055]

I guess this the same user (and same review Youtube channel) that some time ago had same type of heated discussion on Picosope review.
It was same type of arrogance combined with "somebody dared to make something in a way I don't approve so they are stupid".
Also was about roll mode too..

I guess that person made new user. New user same charming style.

[egonotto]

I came here to this forum to get me some advice about what scope might be the right one for me.

Hallo,

in
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/473278#new


your write you own a RTB2004 with the same error:

" Autor: Herbertl (Gast)
Datum: 27.04.2019 22:04

@Peter
Deine Antwort kann ich nicht so ganz nachvollziehen.
Ich habe auch einen RTB2004, aber die gleichen Fehler wie im Video.
"
Do you want only make advertising the test?

Best regards
egonotto

PS @2N3055   yes I think the same. If I remember right it was about roll mode and alternate triggering.
Several (or only one with more names) are very harshly. They make bad advertising for Afug-Info

[BU508A]

@Herbertl:

First: welcome to the forum.

Second: As long as you cannot come along with something similiar like

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185

then you can't be taken serious. Not for all the rudeness which comes from you with no substance (apart from the fact that you are able to use youtube).

Or, let me put it this way: If I should have a question about oscilloscopes or if I need some advice,
nctnico would be surely on top of my list of the persons to ask for.

Just my two Cents.

BU508A