R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope

[JoHr]

Just stumbled over this:
http://www.elektroniknet.de/design-elektronik/messen-testen/schweizer-taschenmesser-mit-skalpell-149486.html

seems like R&S finally gave as the bigger brother of their RTB2000

*Probe Interface
*1GHz
*Really fancy sepctrum analyis as far as I can tell from the pictures
*500µV/div 

Anybody saw this somewhere in real life already?

[npeter]

I was hoping they would come up with some kind of good application bundle promotion for the start, but it seems they choose the free equipment way this time:
https://allice.de/aktion/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-oszilloskop-promotion-fpc1000-spektrumanalysator/

[darkstar49]

doesn't look too bad...but at 4.5K EUR base price (zero options), and 10K EUR the 1GHz upgrade, they're not likely to attract many customers... They'll have to seriously think about their marketing and offer some attractive bundles...

you're getting into price regions you can sometimes get a used RTE/RTO for... and I wouldn't hesitate a single second !!

[JoHr]

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTM3000_dat-sw_en_5214-9144-22_v0500.pdf

[0xfede]

Seems to me just a less marketing crippled version of the RTB2004 and it is overpriced too.
The 4 channel bus decode is the same bullshit since in reality you get half but this time they added a small note in the datasheet just to remember that they are cheating.

Best,
0xfede

[Eric_S]

Marketing PR blurbs for the 3 and 4k series:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/se/news-press/press-room/press-releases-detailpages/rohde-schwarz-stirs-up-market-with-new-state-of-the-art-embedded-oscilloscope-family-press_releases_detailpage_229356-518592.html

...and for the 1k model:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/se/news-press/press-room/press-releases-detailpages/rohde-schwarz-introduces-the-r-s-rtc1000-the-most-compact-low-cost-high-quality-oscilloscope-press_releases_detailpage_229356-518544.html

Is it just me or does the 4/3k differentiation seem a bit small? I mean the larger memory/higher time base accuracy is nice. But it seems more like a 3k upgrade option to me. Nice machines anyhow.

[lem_ix]

It seems nicely matched in price to the Keysight. As long as I'm not the one paying it looks good 

[dr.diesel]

Looks like it might run the same/similar FW as the RTB2000s, which is good for continuous improvement/bug fixes long term etc.

[Neganur]

I think 5.2k for the 200MHz 4-Ch 4K series is pretty ok. The 4000X series from Keysight is a lot more expensive costs the same at the entry price.

At least the memory part seems to be served fairly OK now?

[lem_ix]

The options bundle has the same price for both 3k and 4k but the MSO option is 2x on the 4k.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Looks like it might run the same/similar FW as the RTB2000s, which is good for continuous improvement/bug fixes long term etc.

It does    And I've heard there might be some easter eggs in it, but no Pamela Anderson 

And thanks everyone for the positive comments.  All the normal reviewers will receive units for review - I'm excited to see what they do with them. 

Please let me know if you all have questions and I'll do my best to answer them ASAP.

-Rich

[jjoonathan]

Maybe when USB and Ethernet decodes land they'll be limited to the 4k and that will fill out the differentiation?

[jjoonathan]

I don't see an MSO port on the front, does it plug into the back?

[KrudyZ]

I don't see an MSO port on the front, does it plug into the back?

It's on the side.
Not using the 100 mil headers anymore.

[BU508A]

I don't see an MSO port on the front, does it plug into the back?

They are on the left side. Picture taken from the link in the second posting.

[tautech]

I don't see an MSO port on the front, does it plug into the back?

They are on the left side. Picture taken from the link in the second posting.

Hmmmm, in this class of instrument you'd have though R&S would've put the Demo and Pattern generator gaming pins somewhere else and MSO on the front panel where it belongs. 

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

I don't see an MSO port on the front, does it plug into the back?

They are on the left side. Picture taken from the link in the second posting.

Correct.  Here is a better pic.  I personally prefer them out the side (or the back) - better cable management/egress IMO.  But I know some folks prefer out the front.

-Rich

[jjoonathan]

Ah, there they are! I'm not a fan of logic port on the back but side is fine   Seems like HDMI is becoming something of a standard for logic probes.

Now I'm looking at the spectrum analysis. I'm a big fan of the RTSA-like functionality that R&S put in their previous lineup:



but the spectrum analysis video doesn't really show it off. Is it still there, just hidden under a persistence setting?



EDIT: wasn't expecting it to actually embed the videos in my post.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

The implementation of the SpecAn on the 3000 and 4000 is very similar to the RTE1000 and RTO1000/2000 that are in the first video - they all use digital down conversion to speed the FFT processing.  I believe it is also hardware accelerated in the 3000 and 4000 (it is super fast), but I'll check. 

-Rich

[CRTbrain]

The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K.  It's standard and no extra memory options to have to considered.  Nice job R&S on this part.  the 3000 has  80Mpts and  the 4000 has 200 Mpts of normal acquisition memory.  If my math is correct, on the 3K this is 8X  more than Tek and 20X more than Keysight.  On the 4000 this is  10X what is available on Tek and 50X  more than Keysight.   This is the first time this much acq memory has been on midrange scopes that I know of.  Nice leapfrog for R&S.   R&S states that more memory can be used for segmented mode, but this is a special case and I don't normally care about this mode.

Why did they name them the RTC1000, RTM3000, and RTA4000?  Why not just DSO1000, DSO3000, and DSO4000?   Anyone know what the A, M and C stand for? 

Other than deeper memory and a more precise timebase (OCXO), did anyone else notice differences between the 3000 and 4000?  Tek and Keysight's 3K and 4K also seem to be very close in specs, but the 4K display size for each company is slightly larger than the 3K version.  It seems that the R&S 3K and 4K both use the 10" capacitive display.

Anyone know if there is an adapter for active Tek current probes? 

[tautech]

The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K. 

Siglent SDS2000X series: 140 Mpts standard
$885-2815 plus options.

[ogden]

The implementation of the SpecAn on the 3000 and 4000 is very similar to the RTE1000 and RTO1000/2000 that are in the first video - they all use digital down conversion to speed the FFT processing.  I believe it is also hardware accelerated in the 3000 and 4000 (it is super fast), but I'll check. 

It would be good to confirm that FFT is "realtime" and does not lose samples, otherwise spectrogram view would be useless.

Regarding MSO port - who would want hard HDMI cable sticking out of scope front and trying to occupy your working space on a table? - Not me.

Example:

[mikeselectricstuff]

Quickly comparing datasheets of 3004 vs. 2004 :
4x memory 40/80M vs. 10/20M (interleaved/noninterleaved)
2x sample rate (2.5/5G vs. 1.25/2.5G)
14pf vs. 9pf input capacitance (1M)
500uV vs. 1mV/div
runt & rise/fall time triggers
"Up to  64Kwfms/sec" vs. "Up to 50K" ( a little disappointing)
8 vs. 4 active measurements
Some sort of sequence triggering ( edge A/B)  - not sure exactly what this is
Additional maths : maximum, minimum, square, square root, absolute value, positive wave, negative wave, reciprocal,
inverse, log10, ln, derivation, integration
(but no filter options like Keysight have - lowpass is handy for visualising PWM signals) Mentioned in manual but not datasheet.
Spectrogram (option)
More decodes - similar set to Keysight -ARINC, 1553, I2S etc. No USB or ethernet.
4 vs. 2 decodes
Uart decode 6Mbaud vs. 3Mbaud max
Wavegen 10V vs 5V max output, AM/FM/ASK/FSK, Sweep RTB2000 has this but not on datasheet
Fast segmented mode for up to 700Kwfms/sec. Overlay/avarage/enve lope segments
"spectrum analysis and spectrogram" option - not obvious how the former differs from FFT
Power analysis option

So as expected, as the RTB2004  was clearly aimed at the MSOX2000, the 3004 is aimed at the MSOX3000, with very similar ( but not quite all) functions & options.

I'm supposed to be getting one but don't know when.

[2N3055]

The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K. 

Picoscope 3406 has 512 Mpts, 6000 series has 1Gpts... Even Rigol 4000 has 160 Mpts...

[mikeselectricstuff]

R&S states that more memory can be used for segmented mode, but this is a special case and I don't normally care about this mode.

It does appear that they have a way of using segmented to improve waveform capture rate to 700Kwfms/sec. I wonder if they maybe do something like disabling realtime display during acquisition to achieve this

[nctnico]

The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K.  It's standard and no extra memory options to have to considered.  Nice job R&S on this part.  the 3000 has  80Mpts

Maybe Rich could clarify this: the 3000 spec says 80MPts per channel (on a 4 channel scope with 2 channels disabled) is only available when the digital channels are disabled. This seems to hint towards the analog waveform memory being shared with the digital channels but it may be a typo.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Quick comparison of 4000 vs. 3000 datasheets
100/200 vs 40/80M memory

0.5 vs. 2.5ppm timebase accuracy ( TCXO presumably)
1 extra digit on frequency counter
No improvement in waveform rate

So perhaps the same PCB with more memory and a better oscillator ?
Doesn't seem much for a whole new series number...

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K.  It's standard and no extra memory options to have to considered.  Nice job R&S on this part.  the 3000 has  80Mpts

Maybe Rich could clarify this: the 3000 spec says 80MPts per channel (on a 4 channel scope with 2 channels disabled) is only available when the digital channels are disabled. This seems to hint towards the analog waveform memory being shared with the digital channels but it may be a typo.

Good question.  The way it works is you can get the 80MSamples when using alternating channels (e.g. one channel of a two channel pair) and/or half the logic channels (8 of them).  If you turn on a full pair (e.g. 1 and 2 simultaneous) you get the 40Msample per channel and/or turn on all 16 digital channels you get the 40Msample per channel (analog and digital channels). 

-Rich

[nctnico]

The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K.  It's standard and no extra memory options to have to considered.  Nice job R&S on this part.  the 3000 has  80Mpts

Maybe Rich could clarify this: the 3000 spec says 80MPts per channel (on a 4 channel scope with 2 channels disabled) is only available when the digital channels are disabled. This seems to hint towards the analog waveform memory being shared with the digital channels but it may be a typo.

Good question.  The way it works is you can get the 80MSamples when using alternating channels (e.g. one channel of a two channel pair) and/or half the logic channels (8 of them).  If you turn on a full pair (e.g. 1 and 2 simultaneous) you get the 40Msample per channel and/or turn on all 16 digital channels you get the 40Msample per channel (analog and digital channels). 

-Rich

Now I get it. Perhaps the datasheet should be more clear on this.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Regarding MSO port - who would want hard HDMI cable sticking out of scope front and trying to occupy your working space on a table? - Not me.

Example:

But back would usually be better than side - for gear on a shelf above the bench it means you need to leave a gap.

[JoHr]

R&S states that more memory can be used for segmented mode, but this is a special case and I don't normally care about this mode.

It does appear that they have a way of using segmented to improve waveform capture rate to 700Kwfms/sec. I wonder if they maybe do something like disabling realtime display during acquisition to achieve this

On the RTO/RTE series it is called "Ultra Segmentation".
And yes waveforms are captured without being displayed in real time to make blind time as short as possible.
See 'rearming time for triggering' ...

[nctnico]

But back would usually be better than side - for gear on a shelf above the bench it means you need to leave a gap.

I agree. Having connections on the side isn't ideal. I rather have MSO probes attached to the back.

[darkstar49]

Looks like it might run the same/similar FW as the RTB2000s, which is good for continuous improvement/bug fixes long term etc.

It does    And I've heard there might be some easter eggs in it, but no Pamela Anderson 

-Rich

who knows ?? your (RTB) firmware files are encrypted, so there's no way to check... 

[genghisnico13]

Quickly comparing datasheets of 3004 vs. 2004 :
...
(but no filter options like Keysight have - lowpass is handy for visualising PWM signals)
Spectrogram (option)
...

In Page 94 of the RTM3004 User manual they show High pass and Low pass filters as Math functions, they must have forgotten to add them to the datasheet.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Quickly comparing datasheets of 3004 vs. 2004 :
...
(but no filter options like Keysight have - lowpass is handy for visualising PWM signals)
Spectrogram (option)
...

In Page 94 of the RTM3004 User manual they show High pass and Low pass filters as Math functions, they must have forgotten to add them to the datasheet.

This is correct - we have high-pass and low-pass filters as math functions.

-Rich

[mikeselectricstuff]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

[ogden]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

Apart from overall "quick review" of scope functions would be nice to see FFT & spectrum analysis+waterfall in some details, with test signal and so on - to understand how close it is to "proper" SA. Indeed TEK MDO3000 have RF input, wider freq range and (supposedly) all the "bells and whistles" of proper SA, but maybe now RTM3004 FFT is good enough to consider for low freq range? If you could do side-by side RTM3004 to MDO3104 - would be funtastic

[MikeP]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

Apart from overall "quick review" of scope functions would be nice to see FFT & spectrum analysis+waterfall in some details, with test signal and so on - to understand how close it is to "proper" SA. Indeed TEK MDO3000 have RF input, wider freq range and (supposedly) all the "bells and whistles" of proper SA, but maybe now RTM3004 FFT is good enough to consider for low freq range? If you could do side-by side RTM3004 to MDO3104 - would be funtastic

 Very interesting how the new-FFT work. And also interesting are the differences between the regular FFT and the spectrum analyzer package.
 Thanks.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just received unit. Initial impression is UI is no faster than the RTB2004.

Spectrum mode disables waveform display for much faster update,and frequency range also appears much wider. Not had time to explore more details yet.
Digital probe plug+cable only sticks out 20mm to the right relative to front of frame, so not a huge deal. Cables are reasonably flexible - similar to 2004 ribbon.
 

[dr.diesel]

Just received unit. Initial impression is UI is no faster than the RTB2004.

Although I don't find the 2004 toooooo irritating, that is a bit disappointing, anything faster would be a notable selling point IMO.

Looking forward to the review, teardown possible on that new unit?

[nctnico]

Just received unit. Initial impression is UI is no faster than the RTB2004.

Although I don't find the 2004 toooooo irritating, that is a bit disappointing, anything faster would be a notable selling point IMO.

I agree. Pricewise the RTM3000 seems to compete with the Tektronix' MSO5 series and those have an Intel i5 under the hood. I'm not saying that Tektronix is taking full advantage of that processing power but at least there is the potential to do decoding, math and long (>1Mpts) FFT quickly.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just received unit. Initial impression is UI is no faster than the RTB2004.

Although I don't find the 2004 toooooo irritating, that is a bit disappointing, anything faster would be a notable selling point IMO.

I agree. Pricewise the RTM3000 seems to compete with the Tektronix' MSO5 series and those have an Intel i5 under the hood. I'm not saying that Tektronix is taking full advantage of that processing power but at least there is the potential to do decoding, math and long (>1Mpts) FFT quickly.

It also has "spectrum" mode (option) which omits the waveform display processing to make FFT display substantially quicker - only had a brief play so far but seems pretty fast. Not sure if you can control length/memory in that mode.

[hwj-d]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

It seems, that on my RTB2k trigger-out to aux has a big problem. As i can see at the other scope, it has irregular dropouts with different length. And it doesn't look like it's in context to any further trigger settings. Tested with simple external generated 10MHz square wave 5Vpp 50% duty cycle.

Can you confirm it? And if yes, is it on this new scope too? Thanks.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

It seems, that on my RTB2k trigger-out to aux has a big problem. As i can see at the other scope, it has irregular dropouts with different length. And it doesn't look like it's in context to any further trigger settings. Tested with simple external generated 10MHz square wave 5Vpp 50% duty cycle.

Can you confirm it? And if yes, is it on this new scope too? Thanks.

I did look at this before and I think the irregularites are in the triggering not to the trigger-to-auxout, but will take another look.

[0xfede]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

It seems, that on my RTB2k trigger-out to aux has a big problem. As i can see at the other scope, it has irregular dropouts with different length. And it doesn't look like it's in context to any further trigger settings. Tested with simple external generated 10MHz square wave 5Vpp 50% duty cycle.

Can you confirm it? And if yes, is it on this new scope too? Thanks.

I did look at this before and I think the irregularites are in the triggering not to the trigger-to-auxout, but will take another look.

I'm convinced of that too. The overall performance of the instruments seems to degrade in this configuration and I discovered that if you unplug and replug the USB device (in my case a logitech wireless keyboard/mouse combo) when triggering a 10MHZ signal it raise an error. The only way to get the USB port working again is a reboot. Moreover I added an infrequent glitch to the ARB and the wfm/s seems very low but I must investigate further.

[JPortici]

I personally prefer them out the side (or the back) - better cable management/egress IMO.  But I know some folks prefer out the front.

how? you don't have equipment stacked horizontaly (and vertically)?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just received unit. Initial impression is UI is no faster than the RTB2004.

Although I don't find the 2004 toooooo irritating, that is a bit disappointing, anything faster would be a notable selling point IMO.

I agree. Pricewise the RTM3000 seems to compete with the Tektronix' MSO5 series and those have an Intel i5 under the hood. I'm not saying that Tektronix is taking full advantage of that processing power but at least there is the potential to do decoding, math and long (>1Mpts) FFT quickly.

It also has "spectrum" mode (option) which omits the waveform display processing to make FFT display substantially quicker - only had a brief play so far but seems pretty fast. Not sure if you can control length/memory in that mode.

After a quick play, you can specify memory in FFT-spectrum mode, and obviously it slows down as memory increases. You have to get to 5Mpoints before it falls below 1 spectrum/sec.

[borjam]

Looks like it might run the same/similar FW as the RTB2000s, which is good for continuous improvement/bug fixes long term etc.

It does    And I've heard there might be some easter eggs in it, but no Pamela Anderson 

Do buyers get a choice of easter egg? Could be interesting. I vote for Eva Green 

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

I personally prefer them out the side (or the back) - better cable management/egress IMO.  But I know some folks prefer out the front.

how? you don't have equipment stacked horizontaly (and vertically)?

I have my equipment stacked vertically with the scope on top.  Hence the MSO coming out the side is nice as it doesn't hang down in front of the equipment below. 

-Rich

[mikeselectricstuff]

First bug found - in spectrum/spectrogram mode, it often (but not always) clears the spectrogram display when you stop acquisition using the run/stop button

[egonotto]

Hallo,

I am interested in inherent noise in the most sensitive mV/div range.

Can someone please post a file with about 1 MSamples in the most sensitive range with a 50Ohm termination without input.

Nice if I get the data from different scopes

This gives me the possibility to calculate some values.


Among other things:
Distribution of the noise (amplitude and frequenz)
Mean oft the noise

Perhaps in "BIN - LSB".

And a short example in "BIN - LSB" and "TXT" (: Text file format) that I can prove whether I understand the "BIN - LSB".

Best regards
egonotto

[blacksheeplogic]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

Not so much tested but your thoughts compared to the Keysight. I'm considering the upgrade from the 3000X to the 4000X.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Hallo,

I am interested in inherent noise in the most sensitive mV/div range.

Can someone please post a file with about 1 MSamples in the most sensitive range with a 50Ohm termination without input.

Nice if I get the data from different scopes

This gives me the possibility to calculate some values.


Among other things:
Distribution of the noise (amplitude and frequenz)
Mean oft the noise

Perhaps in "BIN - LSB".

And a short example in "BIN - LSB" and "TXT" (: Text file format) that I can prove whether I understand the "BIN - LSB".

Best regards
egonotto

We don't spec the noise the for the 3000, but we do for the 4000 (it is excellent on both scopes, but the 4000-class typically has more data requested by customers so we put it in the brochure for the 4000).  As you probably know, noise is a function of bandwidth.  Our noise is excellent, especially at the most sensitive settings as you requested - we are typically 1/2 to 1/5 the noise of 4000-class scopes.  The RTA4000 (and RTM3000) have full bandwidth, hardware steps in the front end.  No bandwidth limiting as Tek/LeCroy do and no software magnification like Keysight.  To give you an idea of the noise performance, comparing 1GHz, 1mV/div, 50Ohms we are ~0.8% of full scale, while the 4000X is over 4% full scale.  And while peak-peak is not typically the best way to measure noise, it is the most noticeable.  If you have a RTM3000 or a RTA4000, it is immediately noticeable when you zoom in to 1mV/div and compare the same setting versus a scope like a 3000X or a 4000X. 

Please let me know if you have other questions.

-Rich

[egonotto]

Hello,

thanks Rich.

I read the data in the RTA4000_datasheet.pdf and I am impressed.

Nevertheless I'd like to have the noise sample.

I am interested in noise sample of other scopes  from R&S as well as from other scopes from other manufacturer.

(remembers perhaps on Heinrich Bölls „Doktor Murkes gesammeltes Schweigen“)


Best regards
egonotto

[mikeselectricstuff]

Attached are captures for 2004 and 3004
Highest sample rate & sensitivity, sample mode, single acquisition 100ksamples
2004 : 2.5Gs/sec, 2ns/div, 1mv/div
3004 : 5Gs/sec, 500ps/div, 500uV/div

TL;DR on 3004, peak-peak acquisition mode, peak-peak noise on a full-memory acquisition is slightly under 1mV, 2004 slightly over

on the 3004, even open-circuit at 1M it's well below 1.5mV

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

First bug found - in spectrum/spectrogram mode, it often (but not always) clears the spectrogram display when you stop acquisition using the run/stop button

Hi Mike - we're having trouble reproducing this - any additional info you can send on when you saw it?

-Rich

[mikeselectricstuff]

First bug found - in spectrum/spectrogram mode, it often (but not always) clears the spectrogram display when you stop acquisition using the run/stop button

Hi Mike - we're having trouble reproducing this - any additional info you can send on when you saw it?

-Rich

For example :

https://youtu.be/czeM1ZbVEwM

It does it consistently the first time but not on subsequent run/stops, but I have seen it do it very consistently - in these cases it had been running for a while in spectrogram mode, and it was then clearing every time the trace was stopped, with no other controls being changed inbetween.

[egonotto]

Hallo,

thanks Mike.

Enclosed the histograms.

Best regards
egonotto

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Attached are captures for 2004 and 3004
Highest sample rate & sensitivity, sample mode, single acquisition 100ksamples
2004 : 2.5Gs/sec, 2ns/div, 1mv/div
3004 : 5Gs/sec, 500ps/div, 500uV/div

TL;DR on 3004, peak-peak acquisition mode, peak-peak noise on a full-memory acquisition is slightly under 1mV, 2004 slightly over

on the 3004, even open-circuit at 1M it's well below 1.5mV

What's the BW of your scopes again?  I think the RTB2000 is 300MHz and the RTM3000 is 1GHz? 

-Rich

[mikeselectricstuff]

Yes, max BW on both

[nazcalines]

Question for anyone that has one of these: Has the glossiness of the display been an issue? Is it glass or plastic?

[Hydron]

I believe that some (e.g. Mike) find it an issue, but it depends on where the scope is and what lighting is used.

The display is glass, and while not of retina-resolution is very nice to use (especially compared to most of the rest of the market).

Matte finish tablet screen protectors work very well to solve any glare issues, though I decided that I liked the glossy look better and took off the protector film I tried (lighting glare isn't an issue in my case).

[mikeselectricstuff]

Shiny screen is an issue if position is such that you get reflections, and shows fingermarks. A matt screen protector works well.

[Hydrawerk]

Is Keysight going to replace these 7 years old DSOX2000 and DSOX3000?

[JPortici]

given the amount of options they have i wouldn't want them to. (3000T, of course)

keysight is the only one with an almost complete set of decodes and triggers in the sub-5k area. otherwise for slightly more exotic protocols you have to go waaay up in price

but i's good to see the longer-than-usual list of options they have in these two new models is there a plan to add more in the future? (as keysight does)

[ws2812b]

@mikeselectricstuff: can you have a look what are the differences with respect to the RTB2004? I would be interested what I can hope (press Rich for  ) for with one  of the next fw releases
@Dave: did you get one as well?

[mikeselectricstuff]

I summarised the differences from the datasheets earlier in this thread, and have subsequently edited for the things that were wrong in the datasheets.
First vid should be done sometime over the weekend.

[Neganur]

Hallo,

thanks Mike.

Enclosed the histograms.

Best regards
egonotto

Hey, what software opens those bin files by the way? Doesn't seem to be the same format as the Keysight's waveform 'save as *.bin'

[mikeselectricstuff]

Quick look & teardown :

[egonotto]

Hallo,

the file 3004.BXM:
"
<?xml version="1.0" standalone="no"?>

<Database FWVersion="01.100" SaveItemType="Data">
   <Group Name="ReferenceCurveAttributes" NofSubGroups="0" NofProperties="10">
      <Prop Name="Source" Value="C1"/>
      <Prop Name="XStart" Value="-1.00000e-05" Unit="s"/>
      <Prop Name="XStop" Value="9.99980e-06" Unit="s"/>
      <Prop Name="BaseYStart" Value="-2.838e-03" Unit="V"/>
      <Prop Name="BaseYStop" Value="2.162e-03" Unit="V"/>
      <Prop Name="RecordLength" Value="100000"/>
      <Prop Name="InterleavedTraceCount" Value="1"/>
      <Prop Name="MultiChannelExport" Value="1"/>
      <Prop Name="DataFormat" Value="UINT16"/>
      <Prop Name="MSBFirst" Value="0"/>
   </Group>
</Database>
"

this tells the info one need.


The file 3004.BIN has 100000 values each 2 byte in format uint16 with MSB

As example the first two bytes in this file was:
00 8E
This mean 0x8e00
Now you need the upper 10 bit. Division by 64 gives the data:
0x8e00/64 = 0x238  = 568

0 correlate to BaseYStart and 1023 correlate to BaseYStop
If
a := (BaseYStop-BaseYStart)/(1023);
m := BaseYStart;
than
x correlate to (a*x + m).

I use octave. The little code gives you the histogram for RTM3004
"
lange = 100000;

fp = fopen("D:\\3004.BIN","rb");
kanal3004 = fread(fp,lange,"uint16");
fclose(fp);

for i = 1:lange
  kanal3004(i) = kanal3004(i)/64;
endfor

hist(kanal3004, 1024, 1);
"



Best regards
egonotto

[maginnovision]

Quick look & teardown :

Despite not needing I'm slightly jealous. Thanks for more R&S coverage, haha, I certainly can't afford to do it myself. Looks like a decent upgrade from the 2004 but if I were to buy a second scope it'd probably end up being the 3000T. Fair amount of bugs in new scopes that I can do without.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Quick look & teardown :

Despite not needing I'm slightly jealous. Thanks for more R&S coverage, haha, I certainly can't afford to do it myself. Looks like a decent upgrade from the 2004 but if I were to buy a second scope it'd probably end up being the 3000T. Fair amount of bugs in new scopes that I can do without.

The 3000T is very nice and has a super fast update rate and some decodes we don't (yet) offer, but if/when you are ready to buy a 3000-class scope I'd definitely encourage you to get both in and compare them side-by-side.  I think you'll be impressed at how low the input noise is on the RTM3000, even at full bandwidth on small volt/div settings, the spectrum analysis capability, the 10-bit ADC, the bigger, higher resolution display, how quickly it boots and the significantly deeper memory.  A faster update rate can be nice, but you can make up for it with a little extra time.  There isn't a way to make up for lack of memory when you run out of it.

Bottom line, they are both nice scopes.  I'd encourage you (or anyone else) to try both out before buying.  In the US/Canada, our partners have lots of demos - don't be afraid to ask.

-Rich

[maginnovision]

The 3000T is very nice and has a super fast update rate and some decodes we don't (yet) offer, but if/when you are ready to buy a 3000-class scope I'd definitely encourage you to get both in and compare them side-by-side.  I think you'll be impressed at how low the input noise is on the RTM3000, even at full bandwidth on small volt/div settings, the spectrum analysis capability, the 10-bit ADC, the bigger, higher resolution display, how quickly it boots and the significantly deeper memory.  A faster update rate can be nice, but you can make up for it with a little extra time.  There isn't a way to make up for lack of memory when you run out of it.

Bottom line, they are both nice scopes.  I'd encourage you (or anyone else) to try both out before buying.  In the US/Canada, our partners have lots of demos - don't be afraid to ask.

-Rich

I bought the RTB2004 when it came out for the intro price. Even then the 3000T was on my shortlist but for the price and the features I couldn't go wrong. There are small issues with two decodes being one full duplex decode, I've had some unreproducible lockups. It is a very nice scope though and I would not change that decision. When time comes for a 3000-class scope I'll have to reevaluate but I bet it'll be a tough decision where remote interface and big higher res screen become big factors.

[nctnico]

Despite not needing I'm slightly jealous. Thanks for more R&S coverage, haha, I certainly can't afford to do it myself. Looks like a decent upgrade from the 2004 but if I were to buy a second scope it'd probably end up being the 3000T. Fair amount of bugs in new scopes that I can do without.

The 3000T is very nice and has a super fast update rate and some decodes we don't (yet) offer, but if/when you are ready to buy a 3000-class scope I'd definitely encourage you to get both in and compare them side-by-side.  I think you'll be impressed at how low the input noise is on the RTM3000, even at full bandwidth on small volt/div settings, the spectrum analysis capability, the 10-bit ADC, the bigger, higher resolution display, how quickly it boots and the significantly deeper memory.  A faster update rate can be nice, but you can make up for it with a little extra time.  There isn't a way to make up for lack of memory when you run out of it.

IMHO Keysight needs to come up with something significantly better than the Megazoom based scopes they have currently to keep up. Lack of memory is one thing (with all analog and digital channels enabled you end up with 1/8th of what it says on the badge). R&S OTOH really needs to iron out the issues in the firmware. Things which occur every now and then hint towards parallel thread concurrency issues in the firmware which are difficult to reproduce and therefore very difficult to solve.

[JPortici]

Problem is, despite the shortcomings (memory, noise, can't apply decodes after an acquisition) keysight has a scope with all the options others have only in higher class scopes.
Today.
Not maybe in the future ("we don't (yet) offer"). Today.

[mikeselectricstuff]

My biggest complaint about the R&S scopes is the slightly sluggish UI, when compared the Keysight. I was a bit disappointed the 3004 didn't improve on this.
Compared to others it's probably fine, I've just been so used to Agilent then KS over the years.
I think there is scope to improve this by avoiding some of the transitions etc. when menus appear and disappear, but it does seem to miss button-presses sometimes.
I'll probably use the 3004 as my day-to-day scope for a while to see how it feels in everyday use.

Oh, and those damn clicky encoders...
   

[nctnico]

Problem is, despite the shortcomings (memory, noise, can't apply decodes after an acquisition) keysight has a scope with all the options others have only in higher class scopes.

What kind of options?

[JPortici]

The whole set of decoders!
I hope that the fact that they released this scope with more than the usual five (SPI,I2C,UART,CAN,LIN) is a sign that they will add more in the future, but who know what will really happen?
to me this is more important than having a gazillion sample memory depth

[mikeselectricstuff]

The whole set of decoders!
I hope that the fact that they released this scope with more than the usual five (SPI,I2C,UART,CAN,LIN) is a sign that they will add more in the future, but who know what will really happen?
to me this is more important than having a gazillion sample memory depth

What other decoders would you want? USB and Ethernet are the only ones that come to mind.
bear in mind you can pull waveform data off quickly and easily via USB, so offline analysis should be doable.
Of course what would be really nice is an architecture where you could write your own.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I'm looking at it here: https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTM3004.html

RTM3004 -> 4510€ (minimum with 4 channels)
RTM-PK1 Option Bundle -> 2975€ (triggers, decoders, etc)

TOTAL: 7485€

Is that right? Or is there any launch campaign or bundle or something somewhere?

[nctnico]

The whole set of decoders!
I hope that the fact that they released this scope with more than the usual five (SPI,I2C,UART,CAN,LIN) is a sign that they will add more in the future, but who know what will really happen?
to me this is more important than having a gazillion sample memory depth

The Keysight 3000T seems to support these decoders according to the datasheet:
I2C
SPI (2/3/4 wire)
RS232/422/485/UART
CAN / CAN-dbc /CAN-FD (CAN-FD ISO)
LIN / LIN symbolic
SENT
CXPI
FlexRay
MIL-STD 1553
ARINC 429
USB PD
I2S
User-definable Manchester / NRZ

That is quite an impressive list. Ofcourse it depends on what you are working on whether you would need these decoders or not. To me user definable Manchester / NRZ would be handy every now and then.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm looking at it here: https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTM3004.html

RTM3004 -> 4510€ (minimum with 4 channels)
RTM-PK1 Option Bundle -> 2975€ (triggers, decoders, etc)

TOTAL: 7485€

Is that right? Or is there any launch campaign or bundle or something somewhere?

For 350MHz and up there is a bundle with a free spectrum analyzer :
https://www.testforce.com/news/promos/free-spectrum-analyzer.html

[mikeselectricstuff]

BTW I was surprised that there is still no ability to trigger internally from the wavegen/wavegen sweep

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

USB PD

That's USB 1.0 (USB low-speed (1.5 Mbit/s) and full-speed (12 Mbit/s)), yes? How much does a 3000T with all these triggers/decoders cost? What kills me is the 4M max mem depth, that's less than the (older) infiniivision I have now.

[hwj-d]

BTW I was surprised that there is still no ability to trigger internally from the wavegen/wavegen sweep

Is trigout-aux stable/reliable now?

[3db]

Nice review Mike.
Thanks for the effort.
3db.

[mikeselectricstuff]

BTW I was surprised that there is still no ability to trigger internally from the wavegen/wavegen sweep

Is trigout-aux stable/reliable now?

It still seems rather erratic , with variable-sized gaps in the bursts, and the time between triggers being rather longer than expected - not looked in detail yet.

[nctnico]

BTW I was surprised that there is still no ability to trigger internally from the wavegen/wavegen sweep

Is trigout-aux stable/reliable now?

It still seems rather erratic , with variable-sized gaps in the bursts, and the time between triggers being rather longer than expected - not looked in detail yet.

AFAIK it is not uncommon for DSOs to have a variable trigger rate. At some point the data will need to be processed and depending on mode/settings/math the interruptions will be longer or shorter.

[TheSteve]

Thanks for the tear down Mike - the scope looks to be very nicely built. The front end amplifiers needing such a heatsink surprised me though. The equivalent part on the Keysight 2000/3000 scopes has nothing.
Could this be a product of them trying to go for lower noise because of the 10 bit ADC?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Thanks for the tear down Mike - the scope looks to be very nicely built. The front end amplifiers needing such a heatsink surprised me though. The equivalent part on the Keysight 2000/3000 scopes has nothing.
Could this be a product of them trying to go for lower noise because of the 10 bit ADC?

Hard to say.
May also be for stability, keeping temps as low as possible. With 500uV/div, DC drift is probably a significant issue.
I measured the temp on the big FPGA sink and it was only about 40 deg.C so the HS was overkill but keeps temps down and means they can use a quiet fan.
 

[hwj-d]

BTW I was surprised that there is still no ability to trigger internally from the wavegen/wavegen sweep

Is trigout-aux stable/reliable now?

It still seems rather erratic , with variable-sized gaps in the bursts, and the time between triggers being rather longer than expected - not looked in detail yet.

AFAIK it is not uncommon for DSOs to have a variable trigger rate. At some point the data will need to be processed and depending on mode/settings/math the interruptions will be longer or shorter.

Thanks Mike for your nice competent work. 

Thanks ntcniko for your answer.
Maybe I just expect too much from such a modern scope. Perhaps in practice, it is more likely to be able to receive any trigger event for, for example, synchronization purposes, than precisely each one. So, it is more like a slide rule, than a precise counting calculator (edit: the trig-aux out, not the scope), right? If it's so, than that's an interesting insight for me. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

I assume that the trig-out really does output a pulse exactly on every trigger event, but it would be interesting to check that this is actually the case. I have some ideas of how to test this definitively.
Something that definitely does happen is that on each trigger it captures data both to the left and right of the displayed screen, so the shortest trigger-to-trigger time is always significantly more than one screenful. There may be situations like catching occasional glitches where it would be useful to change this behaviour to only do one screen-time's worth of data before re-arming.

[Someone]

I assume that the trig-out really does output a pulse exactly on every trigger event, but it would be interesting to check that this is actually the case. I have some ideas of how to test this definitively.

The confusion arrives because the trigger output on most scopes is a replication of the acquisition trigger, which is why the trigger rate jumps up when switching to a (ideally circular) segmented acquisition mode as its not (generally) processing the acquisitions and has shorter dead time.

[hwj-d]

I assume that the trig-out really does output a pulse exactly on every trigger event, but it would be interesting to check that this is actually the case. I have some ideas of how to test this definitively.
Something that definitely does happen is that on each trigger it captures data both to the left and right of the displayed screen, so the shortest trigger-to-trigger time is always significantly more than one screenful. There may be situations like catching occasional glitches where it would be useful to change this behaviour to only do one screen-time's worth of data before re-arming.

Ok, got it. Thanks again.

The confusion arrives because the trigger output on most scopes is a replication of the acquisition trigger, which is why the trigger rate jumps up when switching to a (ideally circular) segmented acquisition mode as its not (generally) processing the acquisitions and has shorter dead time.

Yes, that's also reasonable. Thanks too.

[maginnovision]

I tested my RTB2004 and the trig out appears to be acquisition-based, but if you use the counter and set it to trigger it is actual triggers. I assume the 3K will be the same? I just checked with a 24MHZ clock. Used 1252B freq counter to read trig out from AUX out port, and verified by changing memory depth. Bigger depth, lower AUX trig out frequency but more stable Trigger Counter output, lower depth the opposite.

[ws2812b]

I summarised the differences from the datasheets earlier in this thread, and have subsequently edited for the things that were wrong in the datasheets.
First vid should be done sometime over the weekend.

thanks for the vid. Things like pulling out the menu was exactly what I meant,
@Rich: do we get this for the RTB2k as well?

[MikeP]

 Rich.
 I see improved noise performance. Are the distortions of the input path reduced in comparison with the RTB?

 Mike, great video. Thank you.

[TheUnnamedNewbie]

Thanks for the tear down Mike - the scope looks to be very nicely built. The front end amplifiers needing such a heatsink surprised me though. The equivalent part on the Keysight 2000/3000 scopes has nothing.
Could this be a product of them trying to go for lower noise because of the 10 bit ADC?

Could also be they are using a different process technology with a bit more noise and need more current to offset it? Since power isn't critical in this application it could be easier for them to just up the current (and thus power) instead of having to jump through hoops to get the noise down without increasing power.
Also seems like the noise performance is better than the competition (it has to be to get the most out of that 10 bit ADC on the low ranges).

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

I summarised the differences from the datasheets earlier in this thread, and have subsequently edited for the things that were wrong in the datasheets.
First vid should be done sometime over the weekend.

thanks for the vid. Things like pulling out the menu was exactly what I meant,
@Rich: do we get this for the RTB2k as well?

Yes, it is planned in a future release.

-Rich

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Rich.
 I see improved noise performance. Are the distortions of the input path reduced in comparison with the RTB?

 Mike, great video. Thank you.

The 3000/4000 use a new front-end that is different from the 2000's.  While the 2000 has excellent noise for the its class, the 3000/4000 are even better while still offering full bandwidth (up to 1GHz) at all volt/div settings, even 500uV/div. 

-Rich

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Thanks for the tear down Mike - the scope looks to be very nicely built. The front end amplifiers needing such a heatsink surprised me though. The equivalent part on the Keysight 2000/3000 scopes has nothing.
Could this be a product of them trying to go for lower noise because of the 10 bit ADC?

Also seems like the noise performance is better than the competition (it has to be to get the most out of that 10 bit ADC on the low ranges).

In general, comparing apples to apples, they will have noise 1/2 to 1/5th the competitions' noise at the most sensitive volt/div settings (AC RMS, same bandwidth, % of screen to account for different numbers of divisions between different scopes).   This was an area we really focused on for these products as you've typically had to buy a much more expensive scope to get this type of noise performance at this bandwidth.  In addition, with the 10-bit ADC, it just makes sense.

-Rich

[nctnico]

Being able to drag menu items onto the screen seems a useful feature me. It basically allows to create short cut buttons on the fly. One question though: do these remain after a power cycle?

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Being able to drag menu items onto the screen seems a useful feature me. It basically allows to create short cut buttons on the fly. One question though: do these remain after a power cycle?

They do.  They also remain after a preset (default setup).  You can delete one (or all) by clicking the little "settings" icon on one. 

-Rich

[mikeselectricstuff]

Being able to drag menu items onto the screen seems a useful feature me. It basically allows to create short cut buttons on the fly. One question though: do these remain after a power cycle?

Yes.
And also over a preset and Autoset, but not saved & reloaded when saving/loading setup. AFAICS there is no way to save pulled-out menus

[nctnico]

Being able to drag menu items onto the screen seems a useful feature me. It basically allows to create short cut buttons on the fly. One question though: do these remain after a power cycle?

They do.  They also remain after a preset (default setup).  You can delete one (or all) by clicking the little "settings" icon on one. 

That is pretty neat especially since a preset doesn't whipe them out

[mikeselectricstuff]

One minor issue - some menu items are context sensitive - e.g. trigger. you can pull these out, and they stay there even when something is chnaged that would make them no longer appear in the menu - maybe the pulled menus should be greyed out in this situation ?

e.g. trigger->risetime", pull out "rise time" thene select a different trigger type
 
I was going to try something really silly but it seems you can only have up to 10 pulled-out menus onscreen at once!

[JoHr]

One minor issue - some menu items are context sensitive - e.g. trigger. you can pull these out, and they stay there even when something is chnaged that would make them no longer appear in the menu - maybe the pulled menus should be greyed out in this situation ?

e.g. trigger->risetime", pull out "rise time" thene select a different trigger type
 
I was going to try something really silly but it seems you can only have up to 10 pulled-out menus onscreen at once!

LOL ... what kind of weird things are you doing to need more than 10 extra menu keys?

[mikeselectricstuff]

One minor issue - some menu items are context sensitive - e.g. trigger. you can pull these out, and they stay there even when something is chnaged that would make them no longer appear in the menu - maybe the pulled menus should be greyed out in this situation ?

e.g. trigger->risetime", pull out "rise time" thene select a different trigger type
 
I was going to try something really silly but it seems you can only have up to 10 pulled-out menus onscreen at once!

LOL ... what kind of weird things are you doing to need more than 10 extra menu keys?

Who said anything about "need"?
Just wanted to fill the whole screen with pulled-out menus for fun...

[nctnico]

I'm sure I would want 11 at some point 

[RobBarter]

I'm desperately trying to find a reason for 'not' buying this scope....'need' is not a reason in my book especially when it's for me     However, 'only' having 10 extra menus on screen...well....

[JoHr]

I'm sure I would want 11 at some point 

Everything except   "unlucky numbers" ... language sensitive of course

[nctnico]

I'm desperately trying to find a reason for 'not' buying this scope....'need' is not a reason in my book especially when it's for me     However, 'only' having 10 extra menus on screen...well....

It looks tempting but the firmware still needs some TLC and no thourough review yet.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Minor bug - if decodes are on when you slow down timebase to the point roll mode kicks in, it freaks out, and decode doesn't self-recover after setting timebase back to normal mode.
It should just suspend  decodes while roll mode is active.
https://youtu.be/yaicDDGWvtE

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm desperately trying to find a reason for 'not' buying this scope....'need' is not a reason in my book especially when it's for me     However, 'only' having 10 extra menus on screen...well....

It looks tempting but the firmware still needs some TLC and no thourough review yet.

All the RTB2004 reviews apply to this unit as it's a superset of functionality. I have plans to look at a few of the new features - let me know if there's anything specific you're interested in

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Mike here's something you could check: with the raster set to slow speeds (say 100 or 200 ms/div) see if it can decode properly a few chars arriving at ~high speeds (4Mbaud?) in the same or in another channel. The siglents I've tried can't do that properly, the rigols yes, and of course the agilents too.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Mike here's something you could check: with the raster set to slow speeds (say 100 or 200 ms/div) see if it can decode properly a few chars arriving at ~high speeds (4Mbaud?) in the same or in another channel. The siglents I've tried can't do that properly, the rigols yes, and of course the agilents too.

That will probably just be an acquisition memory depth issue - at 200ms/div it's probably not going to have enough sample rate to resolve the data. RTM3004 seems to be OK with 250kbaud at 1 sec/div

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

But in theory it's a hardware decoder, doesn't that mean it's not reading/decoding sampled data but feeding it into an uart?

[mikeselectricstuff]

But in theory it's a hardware decoder, doesn't that mean it's not reading/decoding sampled data but feeding it into an uart?

I think it would be working out of the acquisition memory - it would get very complicated to keep seperate data for the decodes.

[nctnico]

But in theory it's a hardware decoder, doesn't that mean it's not reading/decoding sampled data but feeding it into an uart?

I think it would be working out of the acquisition memory - it would get very complicated to keep seperate data for the decodes.

And yet I think Keysight and MicSig do that. If you keep timestamps on the decoded data they can be lined up when displaying.

[mikeselectricstuff]

But in theory it's a hardware decoder, doesn't that mean it's not reading/decoding sampled data but feeding it into an uart?

I think it would be working out of the acquisition memory - it would get very complicated to keep seperate data for the decodes.

And yet I think Keysight and MicSig do that. If you keep timestamps on the decoded data they can be lined up when displaying.

If not the actual memory it certainly seems to be constrained by the sample rate, in that decode fails when the waveform becomes too visibly distorted by undersampling.
For a 250kbaud UART, which is what I happen to have set up now, the MSOX3104T decodes down to 50ms/div, the RTM3004 to 1 sec/div

[JoHr]

Minor bug - if decodes are on when you slow down timebase to the point roll mode kicks in, it freaks out, and decode doesn't self-recover after setting timebase back to normal mode.
It should just suspend  decodes while roll mode is active.

Looks like the protocol decode is n/a in roll mode ... ( and not well locked )
I´ll check my RTB theese days for deoce vs. roll mode

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'd never expect decode to work in roll mode, just to stop til rill mode exited,and not break anything

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

We just released an update to the firmware (V1.200) to fix a couple issues:

-For active high-voltage differential probes RT-ZHD as well as power rail probe RT-ZPR the zero offset of the probes was not corrected automatically by the instrument.
-Probe attenuation was lost after preset with active probes.
-In XY mode channel unit A was not considered for grid annotation in diagrams directly.

Firmware is available here:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtm3000/

Release notes here:
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_firmware/pdf_3/RTM3000_Release_Notes_v01.200.pdf

-Rich

[Neganur]

That power rail probe (RT-ZPR) looks very similar to the one Keysight is selling, even the SMA-to-1:1 probe browser looks exactly like the ones PMK make for Keysight.

I wonder if PMK makes those power rail probes?

Very nice to see there's a 4 GHz version in addition to the 2 GHz version offered by R&S.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

That power rail probe (RT-ZPR) looks very similar to the one Keysight is selling, even the SMA-to-1:1 probe browser looks exactly like the ones PMK make for Keysight.

I wonder if PMK makes those power rail probes?

Very nice to see there's a 4 GHz version in addition to the 2 GHz version offered by R&S.

Hi Neganur - the probe itself is designed by us, in-house.  Some of the accessories might be sourced from a 3rd party (PMK would be likely).  The ZPR has four big benefits:

1.  Very low noise.  Combine this with a RTM/RTA/RTE or RTO (which are all very low in noise too) and it's great, low noise solution for measuring power rails so the scope/probe doesn't eat in to your tolerance.  Add to this full bandwidth at 1mV/div and up (most other scopes either BW limit or software zoom) and you can get a super accurate measurement of your DC power rail.
2.  +/-60V of offset.  It also has a built-in AC coupling mode (not available with Keysight).  In general, I recommend you still use the integrated offset so you can see drift over time or droop.
3.  High bandwidth with slow roll-off.  The ZPR20 (2GHz) can see coupling of a 2.4GHz signal - the amplitude won't be accurate, but just knowing you have coupling is helpful.  Same for the ZPR40 (4GHz) - it can see a 5GHz signal coupling in due to the Gaussian roll-off.
4.  Integrated Probemeter - it's a high(er) precision voltmeter built-in to the probe (uses its own ADC).  Very nice to quickly see the exact rail level so you can easily remove that offset.

It's not a probe for every measurement, but if you have to accurately measure your DC power rail, it is tough to beat.

-Rich

[MarkL]

Since we're on the topic of probes here...

Rich: Does R&S intend to offer any kind of an adapter to go from the TekProbeII probe interface to your proprietary R&S Probe Interface?

LeCroy, Keysight, and Rigol all offer such a device for their scopes.  Tektronix even offers one to adapt to their new VPI interface.

They're quite handy and lowers the cost barrier, potentially significantly, for new customers considering your scope product line.

While there may be some justification in ease of use or functionality for brand new probes, most of the time existing probes within an equivalent range will do the job just fine.  E.g., A 1GHz active probe is still a 1GHz active probe no matter whos connector you stick on the end of it.

The advancements are happening faster in the scope internals and no so much in probes, which is why some customers would opt to preserve probe investments over a longer period.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just found something odd - haven't checked vs. 2004
When UART decode is on, peak-detect sample mode stops working as it should. The fact that the "peak detect" legend onscreen gets greyed in this mode suggests maybe it's intentional ?

Attatched screenshots are the same trace with & without decode enabled - many of the peaks (approx 175ns) on the orange trace no longer appear

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Since we're on the topic of probes here...

Rich: Does R&S intend to offer any kind of an adapter to go from the TekProbeII probe interface to your proprietary R&S Probe Interface?

LeCroy, Keysight, and Rigol all offer such a device for their scopes.  Tektronix even offers one to adapt to their new VPI interface.

They're quite handy and lowers the cost barrier, potentially significantly, for new customers considering your scope product line.

While there may be some justification in ease of use or functionality for brand new probes, most of the time existing probes within an equivalent range will do the job just fine.  E.g., A 1GHz active probe is still a 1GHz active probe no matter whos connector you stick on the end of it.

The advancements are happening faster in the scope internals and no so much in probes, which is why some customers would opt to preserve probe investments over a longer period.

Stay tuned 

-Rich

[thm_w]

Newark has a deal to buy an RTM3000 350MHz+ and get a free FPC-P3 3GHz spectrum analyzer.
The cheapest RTM is $8700 CAD though, way too much for me: http://canada.newark.com/rsscopes?CMP=e-email-Can-060218-Rhode

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm seeing something a bit wierd with the maths lowpass filtering function.
I have a 20khz PWM waveform, with a partial sinewave modulation of the duty cycle.

When viewed using a 1khz LPF, I see the images below. The zoomed-in view seems particularly odd.

The third image is from the MSOX3104T, which is more like what I'd expect to see..

Am I misunderstanding something about how the LPF works or is it a bug/characteristic ?
 

[nctnico]

I'm seeing something a bit wierd with the maths lowpass filtering function.
I have a 20khz PWM waveform, with a partial sinewave modulation of the duty cycle.

When viewed using a 1khz LPF, I see the images below. The zoomed-in view seems particularly odd.

The third image is from the MSOX3104T, which is more like what I'd expect to see..

Am I misunderstanding something about how the LPF works or is it a bug/characteristic ?

I'd vote for a bug. Maybe something goes wrong with converting the samplerate of the zoomed in signal. Also IMHO the filtering on the RTM3000 doesn't seem to have much suppression.

[mikeselectricstuff]

So I was just going to compare the speed of UART search between the RTM and the Keysight, the KS can get quite slow on long packets.

But I  found that the RTM and RTB don't do search on UART ( only CAN and LIN).

Seems like an odd omission that only automotive protocols support search - is this just a "not implemented yet" issue ?
 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

So I was just going to compare the speed of UART search between the RTM and the Keysight, the KS can get quite slow on long packets.

But I  found that the RTM and RTB don't do search on UART ( only CAN and LIN).

Seems like an odd omission that only automotive protocols support search - is this just a "not implemented yet" issue ?

That's weird...

When you connect via http, what you see on the browser is a video/stream of pictures of the scope screen, or a page composed of html elements? For example, can you search (cmd-f) for words and it finds them or not because the words are pixels in an image? And does the contents adjust to the window size (a "responsive" layout) or is it always the same layout that can only be zoomed in/out?

If it's not a stream of images cmd-f may help in table view or something, perhaps.

[mikeselectricstuff]

That's not really useful.
This is the funcitonality I expect from Scope search - showing all the points on a waveform when an event happens - in this case specific decoded byte values. Basically anything you can trigger on, e.g.   !=, > or < a value, I2C start condition etc.

[JoHr]

...

If it's not a stream of images cmd-f may help in table view or something, perhaps.

Searching on your PC would help for sure, but with running data this would not be stable ... 
Live data provides the bus content  for external searches ...

As Mike mentioned ...  searching for a specific byte value should be supported by the scope itself.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Yes yes I know it's not a substitute, but I am curious to know how exactly they've done the browser/http remote control. Are the display texts text elements thus searchable or images?

[Hydron]

If you see my post here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1420475/#msg1420475
in the thread about LXI tools then you can look at the javascript that the RTB2000 uses for live view/control.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Thanks Hydron, lots of <canvas> in that .js, I see no text elements everything are pixelmaps, so cmd-f surely can't work (?). ISTM they stream waveforms as Uint8Arrays and render them on a canvas on top of the background (made of other canvas-es), perhaps that's why the updates/s are so fast:

[technogeeky]

I'm seeing something a bit wierd with the maths lowpass filtering function.
I have a 20khz PWM waveform, with a partial sinewave modulation of the duty cycle.

When viewed using a 1khz LPF, I see the images below. The zoomed-in view seems particularly odd.

The third image is from the MSOX3104T, which is more like what I'd expect to see..

Am I misunderstanding something about how the LPF works or is it a bug/characteristic ?

If you're probing a mustache, it looks damn near perfect!

[MikeP]

I'm seeing something a bit wierd with the maths lowpass filtering function.
I have a 20khz PWM waveform, with a partial sinewave modulation of the duty cycle.

When viewed using a 1khz LPF, I see the images below. The zoomed-in view seems particularly odd.

The third image is from the MSOX3104T, which is more like what I'd expect to see..

Am I misunderstanding something about how the LPF works or is it a bug/characteristic ?

 Perhaps a mathematical filter has no brickwall characteristic.
 
Mike, if you have a generator with -90 dB THD+N or better. Can you make a FFT comparison in audio band for RTB and RTM. Thanks.

[Herbertl]

Not really swiss knife. Came across this video with shocking bugs in another (german) forum.     

[nctnico]

That video isn't free from user errors though.
1) It is a design choice to redraw the signal at a parameter change or not. If the signal isn't redrawn then you have two (or more) waveforms on screen based on different settings. So which is which?

2) At around 8 minutes they put the trigger point beyond the signal with the RTM3004 in normal trigger mode and they wonder why nothing shows. 

3) Whether roll-mode starts on the left or on the right is also a design choice. IIRC R&S specifically changed that behaviour to what the video is showing in a more recent firmware update. I'd guess that is based on customer feedback.

[Herbertl]

@ nctnico   

I regret, but you did not understand anything in the video
and even worse, you did not even understand an oscilloscope.

Norm trigger (with Single) does not show anything, no matter where you put it. READ the manual !
Or did Rohde & SChwarz make an user error when they wrote that in their own manual ?

A roll mode is a roll mode, not a question of design.
And the crash at the end, is it also a matter of design ?

1 + 1 = 2 that is a fact, not a question of design.

My 30-year old Tek does what a roll mode should do.

Hameg had been having decades-long experience and had be very successful over decades.
They knew what they did things they and why they did it the way they did.

It is a pity that some amateurs are not willing to accept facts.

I guess one can expect a 20000 € scope not to have any bugs.

[nctnico]

Hameg has been bought by R&S ages ago so arguing Hameg is doing things better than R&S is kinda moot.

Perhaps you should read some of my other posts. I've owned and used many different types of oscilloscopes from low-end to high-end and am doing very in-depth oscilloscope reviews every now and then. From experience I know that not all manufacturers implement roll-mode the same way.

These are the release notes of the latest firmware from januari 2019 : https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_firmware/pdf_3/RTM3000-US_Release_Notes_v01.400.pdf. It spefically states the autoset lock-up bug has been solved together with several roll-mode issues. I can't reproduce the autoset lock-up situation the video shows on the RTM3004 I have here so I guess the creator didn't update to the latest version. It is kind of lame to publish a video showing bugs which have been fixed months ago.

[Herbertl]

I came here to this forum to get me some advice about what scope might be the right one for me.

But all I read from you is, that you do not understand what Norm Trigger and Single shot means.
Why should I then read your reviews if you do not even get the fundamentals?

You do not even grasp a simple video comparing 2 scopes, one capturing correctly and the other one missing the signal.
Watch from 6:35 min. on and everything is said.

~~
User Manual RTM3004, p.72:
"Norm" The instrument acquires a waveform only if a trigger occurs, that is, if
all trigger conditions are fulfilled. If no trigger occurs, no waveform is
acquired and the last acquired waveform is displayed. If no waveform
was captured before, nothing is displayed.
~~


I am really sorry to have to write that, but from EEVBlog I would have expected more.

Paper doesn't blush. Do you have Youtube channel? Would like to see videos made by you.

Needless to say, but Hameg made very good scopes.

[nctnico]

I came here to this forum to get me some advice about what scope might be the right one for me.

But all I read from you is, that you do not understand what Norm Trigger and Single shot means.
Why should I then read your reviews if you do not even get the fundamentals?

You do not even grasp a simple video comparing 2 scopes, one capturing correctly and the other one missing the signal.
Watch from 6:35 min. on and everything is said.

I watched it again and what the video shows is a user error. There is no triggering in roll mode on the RTM3004. If you want to trigger on a slow signal then you have to disable roll-mode for long time base settings. In roll mode you can let the RTM3004 roll continuously or use the single mode to capture a signal manually (as shown in the video). The oscilloscopes shown in the video just work differently but the reviewer doesn't seem to understand that. Ofcourse it is a matter of personal preference whether you like the way it works or not.

And no, I don't do video reviews because videos are long-winded (try to compress 30 to 50 hours of testing into one video...) and impossible to use as a future reference to look something up quickly. Video just doesn't work for a really detailed in-depth review.

[Fred27]

@Herbertl You might get a better reception on the forum of you didn't just stomp on here being unnecessarily rude.

[2N3055]

I guess this the same user (and same review Youtube channel) that some time ago had same type of heated discussion on Picosope review.
It was same type of arrogance combined with "somebody dared to make something in a way I don't approve so they are stupid".
Also was about roll mode too..

I guess that person made new user. New user same charming style.

[egonotto]

I came here to this forum to get me some advice about what scope might be the right one for me.

Hallo,

in
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/473278#new


your write you own a RTB2004 with the same error:

" Autor: Herbertl (Gast)
Datum: 27.04.2019 22:04

@Peter
Deine Antwort kann ich nicht so ganz nachvollziehen.
Ich habe auch einen RTB2004, aber die gleichen Fehler wie im Video.
"
Do you want only make advertising the test?

Best regards
egonotto

PS @2N3055   yes I think the same. If I remember right it was about roll mode and alternate triggering.
Several (or only one with more names) are very harshly. They make bad advertising for Afug-Info

[BU508A]

@Herbertl:

First: welcome to the forum.

Second: As long as you cannot come along with something similiar like

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185

then you can't be taken serious. Not for all the rudeness which comes from you with no substance (apart from the fact that you are able to use youtube).

Or, let me put it this way: If I should have a question about oscilloscopes or if I need some advice,
nctnico would be surely on top of my list of the persons to ask for.

Just my two Cents.

BU508A

[2N3055]

@Herbertl:

First: welcome to the forum.

Second: As long as you cannot come along with something similiar like

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185

then you can't be taken serious. Not for all the rudeness which comes from you with no substance (apart from the fact that you are able to use youtube).

Or, let me put it this way: If I should have a question about oscilloscopes or if I need some advice,
nctnico would be surely on top of my list of the persons to ask for.

Just my two Cents.

BU508A

Exactly.
I certainly don't agree with nctnico on many topics. Had an argument or two with him too..
He also made many points that I absolutely agree with..
Such is the fact we are all different.

On topic of scopes, among other posts, he made great (and quite realistic) review od that RTM3000 and is skilled engineer.
I don't think he deserves that tone..

Regards.
Sinisa

[Herbertl]

next video, next bug. 

[nctnico]

Again with old firmware!  I can't reproduce any of the bugs shown on the RTM3004 I have here.

[maginnovision]

Maybe someone needs to let the guy know he can update the firmware. In modern times we have that luxury(curse).

[JoHr]

[JoHr]

Fresh out of the box ... Firmware 01.501

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/de/firmware/rtm3000/

Lets take a look 
Extract from the Release Notes

• New math functions track: Period, frequency, pulse with and duty cycle
• Second cursor source implemented.
• New pattern types in option RTM-B6 pattern generator: PWM, PWM - RGB LED and PWM -Test Signals.
• Symmetry attribute in signal function 'Triangle' with option RTM-B6 function generator

• Low pass and high pass function in math improved.
• Acquisition mode High Resolution in memory mode Auto improved. Higher sampling ratesavailable.
• For measurements SCPI commands response significantly improved.

And other things and fixes

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/de/firmware/rtm3000/

Thanks 

[JPortici]

New math functions track: Period, frequency, pulse with and duty cycle

i assume this is for a measurement trend trace? finally 

[JoHr]

Just tried the internal test-apps  with signal
As far as i can see it is the trend over one acquisition, not multiple ones

[Herbertl]

Hi guys
Hope your had a good time. I spent 2 wonderful weeks in Italy and almost missed a new video. 



How are your scopes doing decoding?

[Herbertl]

What a poor performance. Very disappointing.

Does R&S do any quality checks? It does not seem so.

[nctnico]

What a poor performance. Very disappointing.

Indeed. Posting videos using old firmware and not putting a note in the video the problem has been fixed.  I think this goes to show that doing a thourough review on a relatively new instrument is very likely to result in having to redo some part of the tests due to a firmware update. In my experience it is better to wait with a review (or halt it) until new firmware is released. Otherwise the review is outdated before it is published.

[Herbertl]

What firmware fix do you refer to?
I usually believe what I see and the release notes on Rohde & Schwarz website they say it is not fixed.

What counts for me as customer is not a single bug, but the high number of bugs.

The scope came out in January 2018 for 20k.
imho it is not what you expect from such a scope and it is not nice at all to sell it with so many bugs.
And I really cannot figure out a reason why you defend that.
In my view, the only old thing are your excuses.

Have a nice sunny day.

[nctnico]

What firmware fix do you refer to?
I usually believe what I see and the release notes on Rohde & Schwarz website they say it is not fixed.

The release notes say the autoset mode is fixed. To verify I tried to reproduce the effect shown in the video and I can't reproduce it using version 1.5. You also have to keep in mind that release notes typically only contain major fixes and not the minor fixes so only by testing you can determine the full extend of a new firmware release. So if something on the (in this case) autoset mode has been fixed you can assume they fixed all the bugs concerning autoset.

And for sure you are right there are a large number of issues in the RTM3004 but many of the bugs are not so severe that they are making the RTM3004 useless. Most of the bugs are user interface issues which are easy to work around so not a high priority. To me it seems R&S has primarily focussed on getting the core functionality working right instead of ironing out all the wrinkles in the user interface.

Releasing equipment with bugs seems to be standard these days so if you want a relatively bug-free piece of A-brand equipment then you have to wait for about a year after release.

[voltsandjolts]

Why all the visceral hate from Herbertl?
Burned customer or competitor maybe? 

[Fred27]

It is a bit weird going to such effort to try to try to make the RTM3000 look bad. He got banned from Element14 for joining up just to post the same stuff.

[mk_]

Why all the visceral hate from Herbertl?
Burned customer or competitor maybe? 

there is a more orless useless RTM300x-bashing thread on https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/473278. I assume Herbert wanted to bring this "truth" to this forum too. 

[BU508A]

Imho he is simply a troll with no clue.
Guess, this is one of the sad things you have to live with it in internet forums these days.

[Herbertl]

NCTNico and Fred27, you reviewed RS scopes and many trusted you.
Is that confidence justified?

Now it turned out your reviews are gappy.
You did NOT find any bug,
though there are plenty of them.

That must be hard for you and it is obvious that you are sulky.

Who will trust your reviews any longer?
Me? Surely not! Burned once, burned forever.

imho you just cannot bear the truth.

I did not offend you. But you felt offended because you know I am right.
Now you are offending me. It is not the other way round.
I don´t care. I know what is right and wrong. So do what you want.

[egonotto]

Hello,

the reviews from nctnico are very good and informative.
He knows from what he writes.

Best regards
egonotto

[BU508A]

**trollspeech snipped**

Yep. Definitly a troll with no clue.

[nctnico]

NCTNico and Fred27, you reviewed RS scopes and many trusted you.
Is that confidence justified?

Now it turned out your reviews are gappy.
You did NOT find any bug,

That is a lie. Quote from my review ( https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/ ):
Issues
Issues found so far:
- Averaged trace disappears when changing time base in stop mode
- Infinite persistence trace disappears when the cursors are enabled/disabled.
- Persistence fading doesn't stop in stop mode
- Power analysis shows wrong numbers in switching losses.
- The back button in the history menu doesn't always respond
- Segmented mode segment accumulation only works after pressing 'play' button.

I would like to see a shorter list here and some things like the averaged trace disappearing really need to be fixed but all in all the list isn't that long given the number of features the RTM3000 has.

And if you would have read my review more careful then you'd notice I spotted a few other issues as well which R&S fixed (and I re-tested) before publishing the review.

[ogden]

I better see review that shows various product functions I actually plan to use rather than watch pointless 12 minutes of repeated AutoSet button press that demonstrates random results of bug which supposedly is long fixed in latest firmware version

It is worth to mention that "test" posted in June 8 2019 is dated November 2018 (video screenshot @0:11):

[KaneTW]

I've read through that mikrocontroller.net thread and it really just seems like a handful of sockpuppet accounts jerking off over inconsequential bugs.

[EEVblog]

Now you are offending me.

No one cares if you are offended. That's not an argument. On a technical forum we argue with facts, not feelings.

[JoHr]

NCTNico and Fred27, you reviewed RS scopes and many trusted you.
Is that confidence justified?

Now it turned out your reviews are gappy.
You did NOT find any bug,
though there are plenty of them.
...

I know what is right and wrong.

Then you should think about if it´s OK to remain complaining things that are already done or fixed.

Sure for you it has been wasted time to make a review which is not valid for found bugs anymore on final release date.
But that is life.

If you look at all the reviews that have been done there are plenty of major and minor issues that have been found from people.
And I wont cover the RTM3000 only. RTB2000 is a member of the same family.
--------------------------------------

Based on a foundation of repetitive signals you might have seen that the Autoset works also for FFT-Mode ...
Setting up a first frequency range pending on signal frequency.
That´s a cool feature to be told in a review.

[KlausF]

I use firmware 1.5 and I do have the Autoset bug. It is definitely not fixed.
I also could reproduce most of the other bugs with firmware 1.5.

Please follow Dave´s advice and argue with facts not with feelings.

[BU508A]

I use firmware 1.5 and I do have the Autoset bug. It is definitely not fixed.
I also could reproduce most of the other bugs with firmware 1.5.

Please follow Dave´s advice and argue with facts not with feelings.

Could you provide any screenshots, please?

[nctnico]

Even better: a step by step guide on how to reproduce. Amongst others I think the people at R&S will be keen to know this.

[KlausF]

R&S is reading and responding to the mikrocontroller.net discussion and already knows about the videos.
There is no need for you to call R&S and tell them about bugs revealed in these Youtube review.


Wanted to make a screenshot today, but the follow up video with firmware 1.5 was faster than me.
My RTM does the same.

Video is a comparison between Fw v.1.3 and v.1.5.





Bye for now, greetings from holiday   

[nctnico]

I can't reproduce the autoset bug shown in the video on the RTM3004 I have here. I tried all the acquisition modes, pressed the autoset button dozens of times but it works perfectly every time. Perhaps the BNC cable used for the test is faulty, try change the oscilloscope language to English, hit preset to set everything to default or the update didn't work? I can't think of anything else what could cause this.

[Herbertl]

 



I m much surprised.

[lem_ix]

Hi all,

Does the RTM3000 have only LF probe compensation or HF as well? The probe compensation window only allows the selection of probe channel, displays how to do LF comp, there's no arrow to switch to HF as I saw on some RTB2000 video. Signal doesn't seem to change when changing the time base either ( was that way on Hameg if i remember correctly).

Additional note in case someone from R&S is reading: I didn't seem to notice ampere seconds (there was A/s) in the units window, while it's not a big deal it would be nice when integrating current waveforms.

[Herbertl]

Really ? Improved ? Maybe it means it was better with old firmware   

 





 

I am surprised more and more.

[phase90]

Rich,
Why is it that the spectrum analysis (RTM-K18, or RTA-K18) is not available in North America?

[boeserbaer]

Hi All,

I just purchased a new RTM3004com4 package.  I have been testing the scope under some of my use cases, and I am finding that there is either a problem with my scope, or a bug in the position mode (looking at either pre-trigger memory, or post trigger)  I have attached a pair of screen shots to show the issue.   

I can work with this "bug" if it is not indicative of a PLL problem on my unit, and hope that a FW update fixes it, otherwise, I have the hassle of returning the unit.

My FW version is 1.550

Steps to duplicate:
1. input a stable frequency, and set up trigger.  In this case it is the 10MHz out of my spectrum analyzer. 
2. Adjust the display position (second row from top second to last setting) to 500 us.
3. select infinite persistence.
4. hit run/stop to stop acquiring.
5. hit run/stop to re-start.    this should look like "after_run_stop.png".
    this looks like PLL or math to calculate which samples to display is off.  I would guess PLL.   
6.  Now hit clear screen, sometimes twice is required.   this should look like "after_clear_screen.png"

Do other RTM 3004s have this issue?  Does my unit have a HW problem?

--mike

[boeserbaer]

Further testing of the Spectrum Analyzer mode, seems to point even more to bad HW, but why would hitting clear screen in scope mode clean things up?  Here I have 10MHz 250mV p-p sine wave from dg4062 going to the scope high impedance, tee'd to the SSA3021X.  The results are attached.  I added a third screen shot showing the current state of the FFT from the RTM3004, indicating that sometimes all is OK.

It is possible that the periodic problems in the FFT are due to the FFT being fed discontinuous data occasionally, or it could be that the PLL on the RTM3004 is acting up. 

I paid the premium for the R&S scope for three reasons:

1.  I need an instrument I trust,  I can make most of the measurements I need on my hacked Rigol MSO2302 (2072 -> 2302) combined with the Siglent SSA3021X (again hacked to SSA3032X).  I am designing  4 GSPS ADC boards with single digit ps level time stamping.  I use the scope and spectrum analyzer to study jitter, and of course the scope is generally used as a scope.

2.  I hate noisy (as in fan noise) instruments.  The R&S is quiet.

3. I wanted a made in the EU or USA instrument.

I really like the features, and the UI of the RTM3004, but I am not yet finding that I can get reliable measurements in the area of  interest.  Again my question is, is my unit faulty?

-- mike



 

[nctnico]

Did you try a different cable yet? You could be looking at a cabling problem. If the problem is in the scope then I'd expect it to be always wrong or at least wrong at periodic intervals.

Besides that I don't think you will be able to resolve very low jitter with the RTM3004. It is a nice general purpose scope but  the trigger jitter isn't that good. If you want to get into ps level jitter you'll need a different instrument (a phase noise analyser).

[boeserbaer]

Hi Thanks for the reply.  BTW I sent a e-mail trying to buy some of your diff probes.  I have tried other cables, and have yet to get the instrument into a single behavior mode. I.e.  always good, or always bad.   In reply #184, I showed the jitter far from the trigger.  The first figure very repeatably presents after either run/stop or trigger threshold adjustment.  The extreme jitter is not just present at the change, but continues until clear screen.  Cabling could be the cause on the spectrum results, but gently shaking the cables when in the "good" mode does not seem to influence the measurement. 

The fixed frequency check I alluded to in #184 is easy to make (not valid if using the internal signal generator), reliably fails, and I am hoping someone can verify whether it works or not on their scope.

-- mike

[maginnovision]

If you could get one on loan the 4000 has ±0.5/1.0 ppm timebase.

[nctnico]

Hi All,

I just purchased a new RTM3004com4 package.  I have been testing the scope under some of my use cases, and I am finding that there is either a problem with my scope, or a bug in the position mode (looking at either pre-trigger memory, or post trigger)  I have attached a pair of screen shots to show the issue.   

I can work with this "bug" if it is not indicative of a PLL problem on my unit, and hope that a FW update fixes it, otherwise, I have the hassle of returning the unit.

My FW version is 1.550

Steps to duplicate:
1. input a stable frequency, and set up trigger.  In this case it is the 10MHz out of my spectrum analyzer. 
2. Adjust the display position (second row from top second to last setting) to 500 us.
3. select infinite persistence.
4. hit run/stop to stop acquiring.
5. hit run/stop to re-start.    this should look like "after_run_stop.png".
    this looks like PLL or math to calculate which samples to display is off.  I would guess PLL.   
6.  Now hit clear screen, sometimes twice is required.   this should look like "after_clear_screen.png"

Do other RTM 3004s have this issue?  Does my unit have a HW problem?

I have just tried it using the output of a GPDSO and I get similar effects on the RTM3004 I have here (with firmware 1.501) when I follow your steps. Seems like a bug to me.

Edit: pressing the 'Auto norm' button seem to clear the problem.

[egonotto]

Hi,

I tried it similar with the RTA4004.

The generator is a picoscope 5243A (200MHz DDS) with 10MHz square.

The 5ns is the picoscope 5243A generator.

I don't know if the other jitter is from the generator or from scope.

But the Agilent DSO6104L shows it similar.

Best regards
egonotto

[2N3055]

Hi,

I tried it similar with the RTA4004.

The generator is a picoscope 5243A (200MHz DDS) with 10MHz square.

The 5ns is the picoscope 5243A generator.

I don't know if the other jitter is from the generator or from scope.

But the Agilent DSO6104L shows it similar.

Best regards
egonotto

Is scope side 50 Ohm terminated for these captures?

[nctnico]

A DDS based generator usually has a few ns of jitter so the jitter shown is definitely the generator.

[Fred27]

Why is it that the spectrum analysis (RTM-K18, or RTA-K18) is not available in North America?

When I dug into this it seemed to be down to a patent. Whilst a version for NA that didn't fall foul of the patent was mentioned, it's been long enough that I think we can assume it isn't being worked on.

[egonotto]

Hello,

@2N3055: No it was 1 MOhm.

Another thing I wonder. The RTM3000 and RTA4004 have low noise in 1mV range compared to other scopes.

But perhaps in 1V range the picture change dramatic.

All in 50 Ohm and 1 GHz:

                             1mV/div        1V/div

RTA4004                 0.11mV         31.4mV
HDO6104A             0.145mV         4.9mV
Tektronix MSO44    0.260mV        13.0mV

Best regards
egonotto

[nctnico]

That is because the noise of the ADC is multiplied by the input attenuator setting. If you select 10V/div (or higher) you'll likely see another increase. However relative to the maximum amplitude of the signal the noise stays -more or less- the same. There will be differences between various oscilloscopes due to a different attenuator setup / ratios.

[Performa01]

Another thing I wonder. The RTM3000 and RTA4004 have low noise in 1mV range compared to other scopes.

But perhaps in 1V range the picture change dramatic.

All in 50 Ohm and 1 GHz:

                             1mV/div        1V/div

RTA4004                 0.11mV         31.4mV
HDO6104A             0.145mV         4.9mV
Tektronix MSO44    0.260mV        13.0mV
 

With an ideal noise-free frontend, the measured noise comes from the ADC (and subsequent signal processing) exclusively and will be strictly proportional to the V/div setting, no matter how the various input gains are implemented (PGA/Attenuator).
At 1V/div you will measure ten times more noise than with 100mV/div for example.

Any real frontend will exhibit some base noise, hence there is a lower limit. In case of the RTA4004 you should get 31.4µV noise at 1mV/div in theory, but the frontend noise takes over and it’s actually 110µV. I’d expect the noise will not change much up to 3.5mV/div and then start rising with the V/div number.

What you see here is essentially the different quality of the individual ADCs:

LeCroy HDO6104A is 12 bit and only 4.9mV noise at 1V/div, which is equivalent to about 2.5 LSB.
Tek MSO44 is also 12 bit, but its 13.0mV noise is more like 6.5 LSB.
R&S RTA4004 is 10 bit and 31.4mV is roughly equivalent to 3.75 LSB, which would be equivalent to 15 LSB for a 12 bit ADC.

Now draw your conclusions. Assuming your tests are correct, the HDO6104A sets the benchmark and the MSO44 misses that by quite a margin, but is still better than the 10 bit RTA4004.
You can also look at it this way: if the HDO6104A was restricted to 10 bits, its noise would be only 0.625 LSB (1.62 LSB for the MSO44).

Just as a comparison, the 8 bit ADC in the Siglent SDS5104X exhibits 18.9mV noise at 1V/div and 1GHz bandwidth (1Mpts, 5GSa/s), which is just 0.6 LSB.

This is also where the ENOB discussion comes from. With a high advertised number of bits for the ADC you certainly get more data, but it does not tell much about how useful the additional data actually are.

[nctnico]

Actually it is more complicated than that. Measuring noise at a high bandwidth like 1GHz is useless. The jitter of the sample clock will contribute a lot to the noise when using an ADC with >8 bits so these tests are best done with the 20MHz bandwidth limiter on and while going through all the attenuator settings.

[Performa01]

Actually it is more complicated than that. Measuring noise at a high bandwidth like 1GHz is useless. The jitter of the sample clock will contribute a lot to the noise when using an ADC with >8 bits so these tests are best done with the 20MHz bandwidth limiter on and while going through all the attenuator settings.

Sample clock jitter is certainly an additional source of noise when acquiring high frequency signals - and this would warrant a dedicated test.

Sample clock jitter is irrelevant for DC signal acquistion. Measuring the base noise of an acquisition system is equivalent to measuring a zero (DC) signal.

[nctnico]

Actually it is more complicated than that. Measuring noise at a high bandwidth like 1GHz is useless. The jitter of the sample clock will contribute a lot to the noise when using an ADC with >8 bits so these tests are best done with the 20MHz bandwidth limiter on and while going through all the attenuator settings.

Sample clock jitter is certainly an additional source of noise when acquiring high frequency signals - and this would warrant a dedicated test.

Sample clock jitter is irrelevant for DC signal acquistion. Measuring the base noise of an acquisition system is equivalent to measuring a zero (DC) signal.

You are right. Still DC noise should be measured while going through all the attenuator steps. I think this will show a different picture where each oscilloscope has it's own sweet spot.

[Performa01]

Yes, all vertical gain settings should be checked. There shouldn't be any sweet spot though, only the specific vertical gain where the quantization noise starts to exceed the frontend noise.

A demonstration for the 8bit SDS5104X can be found here (#reply 365):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2828666/#msg2828666

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Hi All,

I just purchased a new RTM3004com4 package.  I have been testing the scope under some of my use cases, and I am finding that there is either a problem with my scope, or a bug in the position mode (looking at either pre-trigger memory, or post trigger)  I have attached a pair of screen shots to show the issue.   

I can work with this "bug" if it is not indicative of a PLL problem on my unit, and hope that a FW update fixes it, otherwise, I have the hassle of returning the unit.

My FW version is 1.550

Steps to duplicate:
1. input a stable frequency, and set up trigger.  In this case it is the 10MHz out of my spectrum analyzer. 
2. Adjust the display position (second row from top second to last setting) to 500 us.
3. select infinite persistence.
4. hit run/stop to stop acquiring.
5. hit run/stop to re-start.    this should look like "after_run_stop.png".
    this looks like PLL or math to calculate which samples to display is off.  I would guess PLL.   
6.  Now hit clear screen, sometimes twice is required.   this should look like "after_clear_screen.png"

Do other RTM 3004s have this issue?  Does my unit have a HW problem?

--mike

Hi Mike - the R&D team has been looking in to this.  It's a bug and will be fixed in the next release.

-Rich

[boeserbaer]

Hi Rich,

I am happy to hear that R&S R&D are looking into fixing the problem.  I hope that the update also applies to the RTA4000 series, if required.  I like liked the RTM3000 well enough in all other regards that I returned it (and some more money) for a RTA4000 which EEVblog member egonotto kindly tested, and found that it did not have the issue.  I suspect that this is a "borderline" problem, as my RTM3004 reliably produced the issue when I reported it, and a few days later did not have it.

--mike

[egonotto]

Hello,

in the Manual of RTM3000 and RTA4000 are written:

"
Hysteresis
..... 
On instruments with
1 GHz bandwidth, you can also set the hysteresis to user-defined values.
Remote command:
TRIGger:A:HYSTeresis on page 438
TRIGger:A:LEVel<n>:HYSTeresis on page 438
"

I did not found a way to do this on a RTA4004 with 1GHz  bandwidth

I also try the command: TRIGger:A:LEVel3:HYSTeresis 0.1
and got an error: -113,"Undefined header"

With the command: SYSTem:TREE? I got a list of all commands.

In this listing there is no TRIG:A:LEV<n>:HYST command.

Best regards
egonotto








 

[tv84]

For those that like to poke around, here is the AES-256 for the RTM3000 .FWUs:

CC80E4A7441CE6B72F1FBFEA9A92F3C6 (the rest is 00s)

A sample parsing of the v01.501 FW:

Code: [Select]

00000000      Header Size: 0400      [00000000-000003FF]    FileSize OK
00000002   Section 1 Size: 00180BEC  [00000400-00180FEB]
00000006   Section 2 Size: 01977194  [00180FEC-01AF817F]
0000000A  Section 1 CRC16: 5F1B    CRC OK
0000000C  Section 2 CRC16: BAA6    CRC OK
0000000E               HW: 0x10300000
0000001E            Model: RTM3004
0000002E               SW: 01.501
0000003E     Release Date: 2019-05-03
0000004E      Part Number: 7102.19684
0000005E      Compilation: Build 73 built on 2019-05-03 11:13:10 by MaG? [01.501 - HCL: 03.400 - MesOS: 04.400] with GCC 5.3.0
0000015E  (???) Hash Type: 2
00000198            Build: 73
000001AA Section 1 SHA256: 84DB2EB405A3480467BACA51BE687398    HASH OK
000001CA Section 2 SHA256: 261BD49CAD531EEB2247240631C90B86    HASH OK
000003FE     Header CRC16: 8320    CRC OK
--------------------------------------------------------------------
00180FEC **** SubSection 0x80 ****
00180FED  SubSect Hdr Size: 0025
00180FEF   SubSection Size: 0000D713  [00181011-0018E723]
00180FF3  SubSection CRC16: 4469    CRC OK
0018100B     Contents Size: 0000D70E  [00181014-0018E721]
0018100F SubSect Hdr CRC16: 2AEA      [00180FEC-0018100E]    CRC OK
00181014 BMP (1280x800 pixels - 8 bits / compr.: 1)   [00181014-0018E721]
0018E724 **** SubSection 0x18 ****
0018E725  SubSect Hdr Size: 0025
0018E727   SubSection Size: 01969A33  [0018E749-01AF817B]
0018E72B  SubSection CRC16: 5985    CRC OK
0018E743     Contents Size: 01969A30  [0018E74C-01AF817B]
0018E747 SubSect Hdr CRC16: D1EB      [0018E724-0018E746]    CRC OK
0018E74D     ELF File Size: 019699B0  [0018E78C-01AF813B]
0018E751    ELF File CRC32: E8CED43F    CRC OK
0018E755     Creation Time: 03/05/2019 09:19:00
0018E78C Main Application .ELF

[2N3055]

hehe...