R&S to launch MXO5

[nctnico]

How common are these user-selectable hardware digital bandwidth filters on modern scopes? lowpass (FIR) / highpass etc.. where you can cycle it at will at your heart's desire on your full bandwidth.?

Not super common but you can find models which have this feature in all price brackets and from various vendors. I can highly recommend having a scope around which has settable bandwidth filters; I certainly have put these to good use over the years.

[tv84]

It's stepwise - I can post a list of steps if you'd like.  You can change the bandwidth and watching the waveform changing - this is actually how I often use that function.

Paul, please show us a movie. That would be cool.

[DaneLaw]

Seems the LPF/FIR-filter in these R&S like MSO5 goes from 1Khz to 300Mhz, quite a span... - what interval resolution.. also 1khz step?  can you swipe so you can see the waveform signal behave while adjusting the filter on the fly as that could be handy, or is it dial it in, and it will adjust accordingly but not continuously 1Khz to 300Mhz control.

It's stepwise - I can post a list of steps if you'd like.  You can change the bandwidth and watching the waveform changing - this is actually how I often use that function.

Took a brief look in the MXO5 manual (from Martin's link), with a few searches, (its close to 30 pages).. https://www.batronix.com/files/Rohde-&-Schwarz/Oscilloscope/MXO5/MXO-5_specs_en.pdf

The high definition (HD) mode increases the bit resolution of the waveform signal by using
digital filtering, leading to reduced noise. Because of the digital trigger concept of the
R&S®MXO 5, signals with increased numeric resolution are used as the input for
triggering
1 kHz to 10 MHz 18 bit
100 MHz 16 bit
200 MHz 15 bit
500 MHz 14 bit

Look'ed on Youtube to see if I could muster a video demonstrating it in practice, to see how these bandwidth filters were implemented on high-end R&S scopes, but no dice, nothing pops up.?
The selectable 1Khz to 300Mhz filter seems to be pr channel on the flagship MXO5, which is a plus... would love to see a video with it in practice

How common are these user-selectable hardware digital bandwidth filters on modern scopes? lowpass (FIR) / highpass etc.. where you can cycle it at will at your heart's desire on your full bandwidth.?

Not super common but you can find models which have this feature in all price brackets and from various vendors. I can highly recommend having a scope around which has settable bandwidth filters; I certainly have put these to good use over the years.

Yep, I use the H/L filters all the time on my portable scope,  surprised me' how much I value it, and the ability to continuously see the visual impact on the specific channels im adjusting it on....though my unit goes from 30Khz to 100Mhz - with down to 1Khz steps, which doesn't seem to make much sense, with such fine 1Khz granularity..but obviously another Catfish

[pdenisowski]

It's stepwise - I can post a list of steps if you'd like.  You can change the bandwidth and watching the waveform changing - this is actually how I often use that function.

Paul, please show us a movie. That would be cool.

[Martin72]

LeCroys MAUI scopes do this(showing bandwith when using Eres)..
Could be something for the (siglent)wish list.

Screenshots from a HDO6034A, I like it when ERES is in the channelsetup box.
This is then not simply "ERES for all", but only for the respective channel - Also something for the wish list.

[Martin72]

.......

All in all, I find that very impressive.

[bozidarms]

R&S® MXO5-410R&S® MXO5-410 - 4 channel oscilloscope with 1 GHz bandwidth, 5 GSa/s sample rate, 12 Bit A/D converter, 500 Mpts memory depth and a 39.6 cm touchdisplay Full-HD (1920x1080 pixel). Upgradable to a MSO with a 16 channel logic analyzer, 2 channel waveform generator and pattern generator. - € 31,416,- incl. 19% VAT - BATRONIX

Again (as by MXO4), prices very high, but only rudimentary signal analysis capability: "Analysis - matematics - basic (math on math)" without any histograms, histicons...

Whats going on here?!?

[nctnico]

R&S® MXO5-410R&S® MXO5-410 - 4 channel oscilloscope with 1 GHz bandwidth, 5 GSa/s sample rate, 12 Bit A/D converter, 500 Mpts memory depth and a 39.6 cm touchdisplay Full-HD (1920x1080 pixel). Upgradable to a MSO with a 16 channel logic analyzer, 2 channel waveform generator and pattern generator. - € 31,416,- incl. 19% VAT - BATRONIX

Again (as by MXO4), prices very high, but only rudimentary signal analysis capability: "Analysis - matematics - basic (math on math)" without any histograms, histicons...

Whats going on here?!?

Different market segment. I rarely have a need for histograms on an oscilloscope for the work I do.

[2N3055]

R&S® MXO5-410R&S® MXO5-410 - 4 channel oscilloscope with 1 GHz bandwidth, 5 GSa/s sample rate, 12 Bit A/D converter, 500 Mpts memory depth and a 39.6 cm touchdisplay Full-HD (1920x1080 pixel). Upgradable to a MSO with a 16 channel logic analyzer, 2 channel waveform generator and pattern generator. - € 31,416,- incl. 19% VAT - BATRONIX

Again (as by MXO4), prices very high, but only rudimentary signal analysis capability: "Analysis - matematics - basic (math on math)" without any histograms, histicons...

Whats going on here?!?

Different market segment. I rarely have a need for histograms on an oscilloscope for the work I do.

OTOH I use histicons almost every day for basic measurements, because it can give great insight in nature of signal. I find them VERY useful, not because you cannot get that info different way, but because they are so very convenient.

[pdenisowski]

... without any histograms, histicons...

I can't publicly comment on specific roadmap items and timeframes, but I wouldn't be surprised to see histograms in the not-too-distant future 

The new MXO series hardware gives us LOTS of flexibility in terms of implementing new functionality, so the biggest issue is trying to prioritize:  there's no hardware limitation at all.

(In fact, a lot of the "cool" things we can do on the MXO are possible precisely because we can do them in hardware)

[tv84]

The new MXO series hardware gives us LOTS of flexibility in terms of implementing new functionality, so the biggest issue is trying to prioritize:  there's no hardware limitation at all.

"Martin has been kicked out from this thread."

[bozidarms]

I can't publicly comment on specific roadmap items and timeframes, but I wouldn't be surprised to see histograms in the not-too-distant future 

The new MXO series hardware gives us LOTS of flexibility in terms of implementing new functionality, so the biggest issue is trying to prioritize:  there's no hardware limitation at all.

(In fact, a lot of the "cool" things we can do on the MXO are possible precisely because we can do them in hardware)

Unfortenately, till now nothing has hapened with MXO4, and i think nothing will be to expected with MXO5 either.

If you look at company hierarchy, real signal analysis starts only with RTO6 platform.

Probably, bouth MXO platform are capable for that, but company policy don`t wont that.

[pdenisowski]

Unfortenately, till now nothing has hapened with MXO4, and i think nothing will be to expected with MXO5 either.

Oh, I wouldn't say that:  we just had a major firmware release a few weeks ago that added a number of features, and we are running at full steam to bring out additional features and options.  If you look at the release notes of any of our other oscilloscopes (like the RTO6) you can see that we regularly and aggressively introduce new features.

[I also say this based on the fact that I have our internal roadmap open in another window and beta FW on my MXO right now ]

If you look at company hierarchy, real signal analysis starts only with RTO6 platform.

That depends on the kind of analysis you are doing:  the RTO6 is a higher series scope (RTO6 > MXO5 > MXO4), so naturally it supports some features not found on lower tier scopes.  I absolutely love the RTB2000 ("2"), but I don't expect it to have eye diagrams, jitter analysis, Ethernet conformance testing, etc.  We don't try to put every feature in every scope because (a) some scopes are simply unable to perform certain functions and (b) some customers don't want to pay for features and capabilities they don't need.  This is true of all scope manufacturers (and indeed, for all companies that manufacture different tiers of products: look at cars, phones, etc.)

Probably, bouth MXO platform are capable for that, but company policy don`t wont that.

Honestly, I would have to look to see if there are any existing features on our higher end scopes (like RTO6 and RTP) that couldn't - theoretically - be ported to the MXO series.*  But in a general way, our policy is always to give customers a range of price and performance (and thus cost) choices when it comes to test instruments.

(*Now I'm going to go waste half of my day being unproductively curious about something I can't publicly share anyway )

[bozidarms]

That depends on the kind of analysis you are doing:  the RTO6 is a higher series scope (RTO6 > MXO5 > MXO4), so naturally it supports some features not found on lower tier scopes.  I absolutely love the RTB2000 ("2"), but I don't expect it to have eye diagrams, jitter analysis, Ethernet conformance testing, etc.

That is exactly what one from Oscilloscope expect when one pay over 30 000 Euro for 1GHz model.

But in a general way, our policy is always to give customers a range of price and performance (and thus cost) choices when it comes to test instruments.

Right - i think the price/performance range hier ist heavily disturbed!

[bozidarms]

And more important - we are talking hier not over to exspensive extra options for one exspensive oscilloscope, rather that this options for that exspensive oscilloscope do not exist at all!
That is real problem.

[pdenisowski]

And more important - we are talking hier not over to exspensive extra options for one exspensive oscilloscope, rather that this options for that exspensive oscilloscope do not exist at all!
That is real problem.

Understood.  If you have a list of options you think should be on the MXO4 or MXO5 and are not there today, please let me know (post or PM).  Our roadmap priorities are almost entirely based on customer feedback, so we genuinely value any advice / suggestions / requests that we receive.  Thanks!

[Martin72]

The new MXO series hardware gives us LOTS of flexibility in terms of implementing new functionality, so the biggest issue is trying to prioritize:  there's no hardware limitation at all.

"Martin has been kicked out from this thread."

 

[Martin72]

That is exactly what one from Oscilloscope expect when one pay over 30 000 Euro for 1GHz model.

In this class, it is not unusual for a scope to be rather "naked" and you have to pay extra for every little bit.
Our last two big lecroy scopes don't even have serial decoding on board, that has to be bought first, not to mention other features.
No, I'm not surprised about the MXO.
In addition, I can only advise you not to buy scopes in this price range from a normal dealer but, where possible, directly from the manufacturer.
At lecroy we have never paid the street price of a dealer, never.
The discounts can easily reach two figures, or you can get one or two options for free.
Well, I've never tried it as a private individual, maybe it only works as a company.
You would have to ask, just go to....
ask.

[tautech]

That is exactly what one from Oscilloscope expect when one pay over 30 000 Euro for 1GHz model.

In this class, it is not unusual for a scope to be rather "naked" and you have to pay extra for every little bit.

I can easy find two well spec 1 GHz models under €8k.

[Martin72]

I'm not surprised, Rob.

[DaneLaw]

How tight are the software options on these higher-end scopes from a hackable perspective?
- as 5k there and 5k there and 5k there, for some poor peasants, it adds up..   

[Martin72]

I think there's hardly anything our gifted chief hacker can't hack...
On the other hand, if you can put down €17,000 for a scope...

[H.O]

That video in reply #78 was quite impressive.
"Right now we're in non HD mode so you can see that we only have 12bits of resolution"  "Only" 12bits!? My scopes both have 8 and I'm sure not all of them are usable :-)

Oh well, not within reach (or reason) for me personally but cool nonetheless. (I would have gotten the RTB2000 back in the day but the intro-deal was of limits to Europeans so I shopped elsewhere).

[egonotto]

Hello,

I tried to try the measurement of the video in #78 with the AD3. Since the most sensitive setting is 500 mV/div, I used the amplitude 4 Vss instead of 800 mVss.
you can see the settings in the picture Signal_W_AD3.jpeg.

Best regards
egonotto

[2N3055]

Hello,

I tried to try the measurement of the video in #78 with the AD3. Since the most sensitive setting is 500 mV/div, I used the amplitude 4 Vss instead of 800 mVss.
you can see the settings in the picture Signal_W_AD3.jpeg.

Best regards
egonotto

As long as we are comparing notes (hope Paul won't be mad at me for distraction..) to get a feeling of performance baselines, my few cents......

With similar scope (1GHz BW, 12 Bit, 5GS/s, 200MHz BW limit set) and similar signal.
First we can see baseline nose is less. We can see 10 MHz 2mv ripple on top of signal even in 1GHz BW without any enhancements. With 200MHz BW limit we start to see it more clearly and even better with simple 20MHz BW limit in channel.

You can see that in this case R&S 18 bit mode is performing similar to 12bit + 3.5 Bit ERES. That is partially because starting noise is slightly higher on R&S (1.5GHz vs. 1GHz BW+200MHz BW limit that I would use in this case anyways).
After 4 bit enhancement (12+4=16Bit enhanced) you will get to point of diminishing returns, resolution wise. But it is still useful as a LP filtering.

Like I said before, ERES has very similar performance to this R&S resolution enhancement function.
But R&S developed a function a bit further so they also specify LP filtering BW which is very nice touch.

I would say that this function on this R&S scope performs well in this regard.

Best,